399: Smart Creators COPY First (The Imitation Paradox Explained)

Summary

The Think Media Podcast: Episode 399 - "Smart Creators COPY First (The Imitation Paradox Explained)"

Release Date: March 20, 2025
Host: Sean Cannell
Guest: Cody Sanchez

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Introduction to the Imitation Paradox

In Episode 399 of The Think Media Podcast, Sean Cannell delves into a transformative concept for content creators: the Imitation Paradox. Joined by renowned entrepreneur and YouTube sensation Cody Sanchez, the discussion uncovers why many creators struggle to grow their channels and how strategic imitation can be the key to unlocking substantial growth.

Sean opens the episode by presenting the foundational idea: “What if I told you that the secret to becoming a great content creator wasn't originality, but strategic imitation?” (00:00). This provocative assertion sets the stage for exploring how imitation, iteration, and eventual innovation can propel creators to success.

The Imitation Paradox Explained

Cody Sanchez elaborates on the Imitation Paradox, emphasizing that mastery often begins with mimicking the work of successful creators. She references Steve Jobs’ admiration for Pablo Picasso, who famously stated, “Good artists copy, great artists steal” (01:04). This principle underscores that true originality only emerges after one has thoroughly internalized the fundamentals through imitation.

Sean shares his personal journey, highlighting how achieving significant YouTube milestones—such as earning multiple silver play buttons and a gold play button for surpassing a million subscribers—was contingent upon strategically modeling the success of established creators (01:15). This experience solidified the notion that imitation is not mere copying but a deliberate strategy to understand and replicate success.

VIP Q&A Session with Cody Sanchez

The heart of the episode features an exclusive VIP Q&A session with Cody Sanchez, where she addresses various challenges faced by content creators and entrepreneurs. Below are the key segments of their conversation:

1. Framework for Differentiation in Crowded Markets

Listener Question by Megan Boson (03:29):
Megan, a vice president at a Fortune 500 company, struggles with differentiating her YouTube channel focused on linking passion to profession amidst a sea of inexperienced life and career coaches.

Cody’s Response:
Cody introduces her "Imitate, Iterate, Innovate" framework:

• Imitate: Start by replicating successful formats from viral videos. For example, if a video about chicken coops goes viral, adapt the format to fit your niche, such as negotiating salaries.
• Iterate: Modify the imitated content to add your unique perspective. Transform the original context to align with your expertise, creating something familiar yet distinct.
• Innovate: Once mastery is achieved through imitation and iteration, introduce original ideas that reflect your unique voice and insights.

Notable Quote:
Cody Sanchez: “The imitation paradox is the counterintuitive truth that mastery begins with imitating others' work. True originality emerges only after you've mastered the fundamentals through imitation.” (01:15)

2. Building an Acquisition-Friendly Business

Listener Question by Ryan Stoltzfuss (07:04):
Ryan, a career coach helping directors of operations and engineering build their brands, seeks advice on making his business acquisition-friendly for future potential sales.

Cody’s Response:
Cody advises Ryan to “steal people’s homework”, meaning to analyze and emulate business models of successful entrepreneurs. She breaks down potential revenue streams:

• Consulting Services: Establish recurring revenue through consulting clients.
• Info Products: Develop and sell digital products like books or courses.
• Software Solutions: Create software that systematizes your consulting process, offering a scalable product.

Cody emphasizes diversifying revenue streams to enhance the business’s valuation and attractiveness to potential buyers (07:48).

Notable Quote:
Cody Sanchez: “When you’re thinking about this now, go steal somebody’s homework. Look at how they built out their business.” (10:25)

3. Hiring and Building a High-Performance Team

Listener Question by Ty Carter (10:40):
Ty, a career coach focusing on building brands for directors, inquires about the key factor to consider when hiring team members to ensure they contribute positively to the brand.

Sean’s Response:
Sean outlines the Five Cs framework for hiring:

1. Character: Foundational integrity; candidates must pass the character test.
2. Chemistry: Cultural fit and interpersonal harmony with existing team members.
3. Competency: Demonstrated skills and expertise relevant to the role.
4. Capacity: Ability to perform tasks efficiently and adapt to the fast-paced 2024 environment.
5. Courage: Willingness to take risks and engage in crucial conversations.

Notable Quote:
Sean Cannell: “We hire according to the five Cs: character, chemistry, competency, capacity, and courage.” (11:11)

Cody’s Addition:
Cody suggests hiring before you think you're ready and emphasizes the importance of continuous hiring despite initial setbacks, advocating for resilience and empathy in building a team (14:19).

4. Niche vs. Mass Appeal in Content Strategy

Listener Question by Alex Montalenti (14:19):
Alex seeks guidance on whether to maintain a niche focus on the real estate industry or expand to a broader market with her digital business card product.

Cody’s Response:
Cody recommends evaluating market saturation and product-market fit:

• Assess Saturation: Determine if the current niche is fully capitalized or if there's room for deeper penetration.
• Evaluate Product-Market Fit: Ensure the product addresses a genuine pain point within the niche.
• Conduct Small Experiments: Test expansion into adjacent segments (e.g., commercial real estate) with minimal investment to gauge potential success.

She advises staying niche unless there’s a clear indication that expanding would yield better results, emphasizing strategic experimentation (15:09).

Notable Quote:
Cody Sanchez: “Typically we think that we have saturated our niche before we've actually been anywhere near saturating our niche.” (15:14)

5. Managing YouTube Shorts and Long-Form Content

Continuation of Alex’s Question (17:28):
Alex also inquires about the impact of YouTube Shorts on long-form content visibility and whether to maintain separate channels for different formats.

Sean’s Response:
Sean discusses the ongoing debate surrounding the integration of Shorts and long-form content on YouTube:

• Platform Dynamics: YouTube is prioritizing Shorts to compete with TikTok, which might affect the visibility of long-form content.
• Channel Strategy: For most creators, maintaining a single channel with both Shorts and long-form videos is advisable unless the channel has substantial volume and resources to manage separate channels effectively.
• Continuous Testing: Experiment with upload cadences and content types to find what works best for the specific audience and algorithm changes.

Cody’s Addition:
Cody highlights the importance of team capacity in managing multiple content streams and suggests leveraging smart team members to handle diversified channels if feasible (20:37).

Notable Quote:
Sean Cannell: “I really believe they're going to figure it out. So I wouldn’t go to a separate clips channel unless you've hit velocity.” (17:28)

Defining Your Content Avatar

Listener Question by Stephen Corson (21:29):
Stephen, a lifestyle design and personal finance coach, seeks advice on defining a precise content avatar to enhance messaging and audience connection.

Cody’s Response:
Cody emphasizes treating the avatar as a real person rather than a vague demographic:

• Personalization: Give the avatar a name and envision themselves as a friend.
• Media Consumption: Identify the media outlets your avatar engages with to mimic their language and preferences.
• Authentic Communication: Use natural, conversational language that resonates with the avatar, avoiding overly corporate or generic messaging.

Notable Quote:
Cody Sanchez: “If you have a real human, you don’t need any of that. You’re not like, he’s 24 to 48. You’re like, what? Who’s a 24 to 48 year old?” (21:59)

Overcoming Gender Barriers in Male-Dominated Industries

Listener Question by Jasmine (26:07):
Jasmine, a tax strategist and IRS agent, seeks strategies to thrive as a woman in the predominantly male tax industry.

Cody’s Response:
Cody advocates for shifting mindset and language:

• Reframe Challenges: Instead of labeling struggles as a woman in a male-dominated field, view them as opportunities to showcase strength and resilience.
• Focus on Skills: Emphasize building and demonstrating expertise rather than identity markers.
• Collaborative Attitude: Encourage teamwork and mutual support, dismantling myths about gatekeeping and promoting inclusivity.

Notable Quote:
Cody Sanchez: “You are so much more than a woman. You are a builder. I care about are you a builder or are you a burner downer.” (30:50)

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Sean wraps up the episode by highlighting practical resources:

• Free YouTube Strategy Class: Sean promotes his free class available at on [e-mail], detailing strategies to generate over 330,000 daily views.
• Book Giveaway: Listeners are invited to claim a free copy of Sean’s updated book, YouTube Secrets, by visiting ytsecrets.com.

Final Thoughts:
The episode underscores the power of strategic imitation as a pathway to mastery and innovation. By modeling successful creators, iterating upon their strategies, and eventually forging unique content, creators can overcome stagnation and achieve significant growth. Additionally, the comprehensive Q&A session provides actionable insights on team building, market positioning, content strategy, avatar definition, and navigating gender dynamics in professional settings.

Notable Quote:
Sean Cannell: “When you like somebody's content, model their success, then find your unique twist and innovate.” ([General Concept])

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Timestamps

• 00:00 – Introduction and the concept of the Imitation Paradox
• 01:04 – Picasso and the essence of imitation
• 03:29 – Megan Boson’s question on differentiation
• 07:04 – Ryan Stoltzfuss on acquisition-friendly business models
• 10:40 – Ty Carter’s query on hiring principles
• 14:19 – Alex Montalenti’s questions on niche vs. mass appeal
• 17:28 – Managing YouTube Shorts and long-form content
• 21:29 – Stephen Corson on defining a content avatar
• 26:07 – Jasmine’s question on overcoming gender barriers
• 30:50 – Closing remarks and resources

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Key Resources Mentioned

• Sean Cannell’s Free YouTube Strategy Class: on [e-mail]
• Sean’s Book – YouTube Secrets: ytsecrets.com
• Grow With Video Live Event: growwithvideolive.com

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This episode of The Think Media Podcast is a treasure trove of actionable insights for both budding and seasoned content creators. By embracing the Imitation Paradox and leveraging strategic frameworks for growth, creators can navigate the complexities of online video content with greater confidence and effectiveness.

Transcript

[Sean Cannell]

Hey, before we jump into the show, I wanted to give you a heads up that my free YouTube strategy class is available right now on [e-mail] on the class, I reveal the one YouTube strategy we use at Think Media to generate over 330,000 views every single day. So if you're new to YouTube, this will help you start right and avoid mistakes. And if you're a YouTube pro, this training will help you multiply your your growth. This class is 100% free and you can watch it now on [e-mail] now let's jump into today's show. What if I told you that the secret to becoming a great content creator wasn't originality, but strategic imitation? Today, I'm sitting down with Cody Sanchez to unpack why most content creators stay stuck and don't grow on YouTube. The reason why is because they do not understand the imitation paradox. Even Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple, understood this powerful principle when he quoted Pablo Picasso saying this.

[Cody Sanchez]

I mean, Picasso had a saying. He said, good artists copy, great artists steal.

[Sean Cannell]

And we have, you know, always been.

[Cody Sanchez]

Shameless about stealing great ideas.

[Sean Cannell]

Good artists copy, great artists steal. And this isn't just some clever quote. It's the hidden blueprint behind nearly every successful creator's journey. The imitation paradox is the counterintuitive truth that mastery begins with imitating others work. True originality emerges only after you've mastered the fundamentals through imitation. And I've experienced the power of the imitation paradox myself. After getting three silver play buttons and a gold YouTube play button for reaching over a million subscribers, the turning point was understanding the power of modeling the masters and doing it in a strategic way. But that's not the only topic that we're going to cover in today's episode of the Think Media podcast. What you're about to hear is an exclusive VIP Q&A session that I hosted with Cody Sanchez, which if you never met her before, she's got millions of followers across social media. She's a prolific entrepreneur and business builder, but she also has over 1.7 million subscribers on YouTube. And in our conversation we cover the powerful three step formula that transformed her businesses that we can all apply to our content creation. How to know exactly when to differentiate yourself in a crowded market. Five game changing tips for hiring and building a high performance team. Plus even more insights from the questions that the incredible individuals that attended our event asked. And hey, if you want to get on the waiting list for our next Grow With Video Live event happening in Las Vegas, just go to growwith video live.com or click the link in the podcast Show Notes. Whether you're scaling a business or growing your content platform, Cody's frameworks and the content in this episode are going to provide the blueprint. Let's dive in. And can we just give it up for Cody Sanchez as she comes? All right, go ahead, take it away. What's your name? What do you do? What's your question?

[Cody Sanchez]

All right, my name is Megan Boson at the passionate pro on YouTube. And Cody, so great to hear you. I've been following you for a little bit here. We have similar journeys. So I've been in Corporate America for 20 years, became an executive leader 10 years in, and I've been doing that for the past, obviously 10 years. So I'm a vice president at a Fortune 500. I really love that because it matters, because if you. I'm a black woman, so that's kind of a big deal. Y'all should clap for that. But in that there are so many people that hate what they do. And so my channel is dedicated to helping people link their passion to their profession, whatever that means. People come up to me, they're like, I want to be promoted. I'm like, no, you don't. You don't even like living here or working here. Like, let's figure out something else. My challenge is this. When I'm looking at who is already out there, it's these 21 year old life coaches and career coaches who don't have any idea what they're talking about and have never worked in the environment. How can I think about looking at how I play in this space and how I make sure that I'm setting myself aside and different from those. Yeah, good question. So I have a framework that I call imitate iterate than innovate. And so one thing we can learn from the poor 21 year old life coaches which now all hate me, is that they are so much more tech and social media native than we are. They breathe this in the same way that the next generation that understands AI is going to make us look inefficient and about as good as our parents are at handling a new Apple update. Right. And so I like to imitate first the things that I see from a format perspective from people who are crushing it, who are younger. And so I think if you're trying to carve out your unique space, I think you start by saying, whoa, this video is super viral. I need to understand why. Why is this video so viral? Why is this doing so well, Once I understand why it's doing so well, I want to imitate it with grace and appropriateness. You're not trying to steal somebody's content. But if somebody is going super viral, talking about chicken coops, right, and you're talking about being a corporate executive, you might take their song. You might take the words that are in the thumbnail or the title. You might take the first 30 or 60 seconds and when they go, you know, you'll never guess how much money I made with this chicken cooperation. You might then say, you'll never guess how much money I made from negotiating my salary. And then they might go, here's this tiny little hack on how to build it for 50 bucks. And then you might go, here's this tiny little hack that changed everything for me. So you are imitating their frame, but in a way that is totally native to yourself. So I'd start with imitation, then I would go for iteration. So iteration is like, okay, I understand why they went viral. I understand how viral videos could work for me now. Now how could I iterate on it so it's slightly my own. So instead of them standing in front of the chicken coop and you standing in front of your boss, like looking mad, you have a second version that's like slightly different that puts your unique frame on it. And only after you've become a master imitator, a master iterator, do I completely innovate, which is like, let's do a video with 50 people about how to negotiate your salary in order to make more money. And the one who negotiates their salary highest gets a prize, you know, and so that's how I would think about it. But really cool niche and congratulations on your success. So nice to see you. Thank you so much.

[Sean Cannell]

Well, we started hot there as a three part framework. That was some tactics. That was amazing. You, sir.

[Cody Sanchez]

My name is Ryan Stoltzfuss.

[Sean Cannell]

I'm a career coach. I help directors of ops and directors of engineering to build their brand and grow their impact. As I think about my business at three years in, I'm thinking future forward always. I don't know if I'm going to sell my business in the future, but I still want to be giving myself room for that potentially in the future. So any pieces of advice and kind of what you were talking about, building personal brand versus building a company brand, I think plays into this pretty heavily too. But any advice, thinking some years, five, ten years in the future, what can I do now to make it more acquisition friendly?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, couple things. One, I like to steal people's homework. And so not that dissimilar of a response, really, if you right now are saying one sentence exactly what you do.

[Sean Cannell]

I help directors of operations to build their brand and grow their impact.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay. I. If I helped directors of brand. Directors of operations. Yes, directors of operations build their brand. If that was my one line, I would probably try to find somebody who had a company that was similar to it that had sold but before. And so I don't know one in that exact niche. But I might go to, like, Traction. Gino Wickman. Gino Wickman sold the Traction software, which was essentially how to scale businesses. Right. I'm sure you guys, like, know Traction EOS is the software, the book Rocket Fuel. Right. So he turned a personal brand where he talked about something structural, systematic ideas into software and systems that he sold. Right. And he probably sold it in three, four, three realms. He probably sold the consulting business. So, hey, I have reoccurring revenue consulting clients that are selling that are paying me right now. He would get a higher multiple on it if those consulting clients were corporations as opposed to individuals. So that could be one unique angle. Then he had another one, which is I have info products. I actually don't know if he sold this, but I have books that have reoccurring revenue based on royalties and licensing that people might do for my books. Okay, second part, and then third part would be that I have a software. So I've realized that I have a system that helps director of ops every single time build their brand. Here's my system and process. Let's put it into a software and then let's sell that software. Royalty's highest multiple valuation secondary is SaaS, actually, after royalties. And third would be his info products, and fourth would be consulting. And so when you guys are thinking about your business and how to sell it, you have to understand how many businesses do you actually have? You probably have more than you anticipate. You have multiple revenue lines that could be independent centers of gravity. And so when you're thinking about this now, go steal somebody's homework. Look at how he built out his business. The best value somebody could ever give you is their org chart and their holdco org chart. Because then you can see if every business is comprised predominantly of an idea, plus a person that executes on that idea. Obviously, typically we can see what the idea is. Geno sells consulting software ideas. Right. But we don't actually know how he built that underlying. How do we know how he builds the Underlying, we see the people underneath him who actually comprise the execution of the idea. And so that's what I would do.

[Sean Cannell]

Can I steal real quick to the room? If anybody in the room has built a SaaS product, Can. Can I network with you specifically? Because I have a huge desire to do that and have no idea how. Can we talk later? She's built too. Okay, thank you so much. Amazing. Give it up.

[Cody Sanchez]

Love that.

[Sean Cannell]

You, sir.

[Cody Sanchez]

Absolutely. Ty Carter, Atlanta. So this is for Sean and Cody and I'm here with the Passionate Pro podcast. I've met a lot of people in here today and, well, the last two days and it seems like everybody's building a team. So I'm curious from Sean and from Cody, what is the one thing that you look for when you're hiring a person? Is it one rule you go by? Because again, having the right team can make your brand or break your brand.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah, we've got a great question. We hire according to the five Cs. For us, character, it's got to be foundational. If you don't pass the character test, you shouldn't be ever hired that person. Then chemistry. This is going to be do you fit here? They could be an incredible person. They might not fit here. We have seven core values that would define kind of our culture. And also do we just kind of want to hang and vibe with you? You get to decide the vibe of your company, then competency. You got to be good at what you do. And when you're just starting out, I think you also have to decide if you're building bottom up or top down. And I think if you're in this room hustling kind of startup and finances are low, you have to have kind of that scrappy bottom up mentality. One of the most valuable parts of my experience was being a youth pastor and in ministry. John Maxwell, leadership expert, says that that is actually the strongest place to grow as a leader because you have to motivate people without being able to pay people. So you have to be good at being able to cast vision, cast mission. And when you're building bottom up, that's a lot of what it is. Is maybe like one of the first people that helped us grow. Think media. I was like, so here's the thing. I can't pay you at this exact moment, but I will give you this percent of this thing we will create together. And if it fails, then that would be zero. But if it does this, you'll get this. And she was like, yes, she was an entrepreneur. Intrapreneur that was like, let's do it. And so that's different than it is now. Eventually it might be top down. So you gotta decide, do I have the money to hire top down? And maybe hire somebody that already has the competency or the expertise because I believe those things could grow with you. And then finally we would say capacity. I think at a 2024 world, just getting it done is not enough. You gotta be able to get it done quickly and continue to go faster. AI meaning just all right, can you be efficient? Can you be productive? That's cool. You made like a video an entire week. A 60 second short, bro. That's not gonna cut it, man. We need like five shorts a day. Like this is the, you know, 2024. And so a level of speed and increasing speed. And then finally for us to be courage. Are you just willing to take bold risks? Are you willing to step out? And. And also being courageous for us, it'd be like having crucial conversations. The courage to apologize, the courage to do some of those things that are culture value for us. So that's the five C's we have our core values. That was a lot. But I can't wait to hear what Cody would say.

[Cody Sanchez]

Honestly, that was so good, I'm gonna steal all five Cs. Then I'm gonna say they were mine. No, just kidding. I'll shout you out. What would I add to that? Honestly, there's probably not much I would add there. I would take his framework and I would only add hire before you think you're ready. And when you up your first hire, because you probably will, don't stop hiring because that's usually what happens. People make their first hire. That doesn't go well. Neither did your first date. So, you know, don't. Don't stress too much about it and make sure that you keep hiring. Because the only way you can build a business is with other people. And so I would apply a framework like his. I would hire probably sooner than you feel like you're ready. And I would continue to hire even when you mess up at it. As long as you with empathy, move the people along that are not supposed to be on your mission and are a fit. Thank you.

[Sean Cannell]

Great question. Hey, my name's Alex Montalenti. So my question's on niche versus mass appeal.

[Cody Sanchez]

And to give you a little background, my mom was a realtor.

[Sean Cannell]

I got in the business 23 years ago, saw how non tech savvy she was and how much I could help her.

[Cody Sanchez]

So now we help realtors that are.

[Sean Cannell]

Not tech savvy with their digital presence. And we invented a digital business card that's a video enabled digital card. So what happened is we built it really deep in the real estate space. So this applies to Both business and YouTube. Channel is like, I hear you talk about niche versus mass appeal. I have all these people that want the card, but I serve this real estate industry. There's 10 billion paper cards printed every year. We've got a million digital. So I'm debating from a point of view of exit as well as a point of view of mass appeal on social and YouTube.

[Cody Sanchez]

Do I stay niche real estate or.

[Sean Cannell]

Do I open myself up to the whole world?

[Cody Sanchez]

What are your thoughts? I have quick thoughts and I'd love to hear you too. My quick thoughts would be, typically we think that we have saturated our niche before we've actually been anywhere near saturating our niche. And so look yourself in the mirror honestly and say, are we happy with the penetration we have in this market right now or we uniquely know how to serve them? And if the answer is no, then I would go deeper to that market. Unless you feel like the market isn't working. If you're like, this isn't actually working, we have some sort of product market fit flaw, then one of the product market fit issues could be the market, not the product is the fit. In which case all you need to do is pivot to another audience and you're like, oh, it's actually not realtors that need it, it is H. I didn't even realize that we're not having to sell this thing because the thing is uniquely situated to fix their pain. So I would ask yourself those two questions. And then the last thing I would say is, I like tiny experiments that don't have a serious impact on me if they go sideways. And so instead of like jumping in entirely to a new market, you might say, well, we kind of want to beta test with. Right now we mostly sell to realtors in residential. What happens if we go to commercial? How could I test that where it would be easy, cheap, and a fast feedback loop? And then I might test that. And then I might say, okay, that really didn't have a material difference from any other segment. So let me test a different segment which might actually be, I don't know, real estate property managers. And I might test the exact same thing. But at first I would ask, have I saturated my market fully? Am I happy with it? Am I pivoting? Because there is a pain and I feel like we don't have product market fit. And then finally how can I experiment to see if there's a market in which we have better pmf? I work for Messenger International. I'm running John Bevere's channel, Lisa and all of those. So our main content is courses, sermons and podcasts. Some people that we're working closely with as we're using long form content every week or bi weekly, the filler days, we have shorts going out to funnel and lead people to the long form. We've had some people share that, some actually not healthy to do on a channel and instead should create a separate clips channel. I just wanted to know your thoughts on that because it's something new for me, but I didn't know if that's a new shift.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah, this is a, it's a good question and it's a major debate. One side is saying right now that shorts have kind of ruined YouTube. Kind of an extreme statement. But the reality is YouTube is pushing so hard to battle with TikTok that they're pushing shorts and it's taking up a lot of real estate on the homepage. So even some people are feeling like my long form views are down. And the reason is, is just because there's less exposure because the platform is fighting on these two different formats. Some people say I started posting shorts and my views on my content went down and it hurt my channel. I think you have to look really deep on that because it also could just be a supply and demand thing. Right now you were talking about attention. The Rock is taking attention, Trump is taking attention. So it's like attention's a lot of places. But on the flip side, one of the things I'm banking on is that YouTube is going to figure it out. So I want, if they want me to post shorts and they want me to post long form and they want, they say they want it on the same channel. I really do believe they're going to. They might not, but like they're in it to win it. They got a lot of developers behind this. They want this thing to work. And I think that I wouldn't go a separate clips channel or separate shorts channel unless you've hit velocity. Now you guys are big, but I mean Joe Rogan should have JRE clips, but Joe Rogan, there was a, it revealed on Spotify this little thing of how many monthly listeners just on Spotify. And it was something like 14 million maybe per episode or something like that for the Joe Rogan show just on Spotify. If you're at a Big space, then clips maybe make might make sense off of one channel. But here would be my final piece of advice and I'm curious if you've seen different formats hurt or help. I do think that if you are starting from scratch and you're growing and even if you're. We're almost at 200,000 on our podcast channel that we launched. We're trying to build all the momentum on the same channel. And so we're posting shorts on the channel, clips on the channel and the long form videos on the channel. So it's just a few things to try to decide with maybe where you at and maybe the final thing. One of the people that help us is a agency called Social Media Money. They work with like Graham Stephan and Whatnot. Josh is here at the conference and he works for like Graham Stephan. They will test a lot of their vertical and shorts elsewhere. They use TikTok as testing, they use meta Facebook as testing. And they actually just put the best of the best on YouTube. So we're constantly evaluating like should we just pump everything on YouTube? Should we actually slow down on the clips, speed up. And my friend Lewis Howells was talking about like when they started posting less clips and got the right cadence, views did increase kind of based on videos hitting browse features. I'm getting kind of geeky here, but having space between uploads. So even in our framework we talk about the review R it's, it's an ongoing process of being willing to maybe do a week long or a month long experience, upload the shorts and clips, then maybe change something and then see what you can observe for the next two weeks or four weeks and bank on this one thing. This stuff will change constantly. Algorithms will change. But for where you guys are at knowing the channel, I would, I would build all the momentum on the one channel for now.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's a great answer. I'll only add one line which is businesses are usually constrained by the amount of smart people that they have. And so I think you need to ask yourself how many smart people do we have and can we give the attention that is necessary to multiple channels at this moment? If you can have an a B test of two different channels with an incredibly smart person who's talented and has the time and capacity over here and an incredibly smart person with time and capacity over here. You can a B test this idea. You can also ab test content, you can also ab test two people. But what I found is it's not just a question of what is YouTube doing but what is your team's capacity for it? You know, Mr. Beast can have multiple channels all over the place because he's got a really big team of a bunch of smart people who can be complete specialists into one thing as opposed to distracted generalists across many. So ask yourself a capacity question too. Thank you.

[Sean Cannell]

All right, so just real quick, was listening actually to your podcast by Graham.

[Cody Sanchez]

Stephan before you got here. Just so you know, I'm a big.

[Sean Cannell]

Fan girl, so just wanted to say.

[Cody Sanchez]

Great and thanks for the Carol Dweck.

[Sean Cannell]

Mindset recommendation on the book. So my name is Stephen Corson.

[Cody Sanchez]

I am ex corporate, kind of like.

[Sean Cannell]

You, going up the ladder and kind of fired myself from that. Now I do lifestyle design and personal finance coaching for high performers and entrepreneurs.

[Cody Sanchez]

So my question is, when you were.

[Sean Cannell]

Talking earlier, you were talking about how you literally gave your avatar a name. And that's something I'm really trying to get specific on. Could you break down a little bit on what that process was like that you went to to get to the 30 year old dude named Bob or whatever it was? Because I feel like that would really help as I'm messaging, you know, pick your platform, whether it's angry teenager on whatever.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know, you get it.

[Sean Cannell]

John. Tell us about John.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, well, this comes from the idea of I started off as a writer. I think my where I am most talented is actually writing. And the writing sort of infuses its way to video and other platforms. But my first love has always been writing. And so when you write, the biggest thing that bothers me about how most people write, especially because most of us are taught some sort of corporate or business writing is you would never write a love letter to whom it may concern. And yet we write love letters at the end that say best wishes and sincerely to our people. And so when I think about an avatar, I think about it the same way. How would I speak to text and call a friend of mine if they were watching the YouTube channel? And so when I thought about working John, I thought, okay, I need to build a visual and I actually have a human. His name isn't John. But that I think about who is the avatar I am actually talking to. It is a real human. And I know that they listen to varying media outlets. So I listed those media outlets like, ah, I think they read this newsletter, I think they watch this podcast. I think they're likely to have a copy of Monocle. I think they hate this group. I think this influencer actually annoys the hell out of them. I'm like that specific about who they are. And then because I now know what other media centers they listen to, I can mimic some of the verbiage and the way that those media centers speak to them because I know that they're already listening to those. So I get to sort of, you know, integrate their homework into it. The next thing I thought about was we created something called how to Speak like a Contrarian. And the how to Speak like a Contrarian is a word doc that basically has a bunch of do's and don'ts in them and it shows people through case study. Don't use these words, do use these words. You know, read what you are going to script out before you film a video on it. And so a lot of times, you know, this happens with my team, they'll send me something and I'll say, I want you to, I want you to read this out loud to this other person. And so they'll look across the way at each other and then they'll go, I'm really excited to launch this new business course today. Are you excited also for a new life? And you're like, what is. Would you ever say that to anybody? I'm gonna make you film it and post it on your social channels. And so being that straightforward with yourself about like, okay, would I, if I actually truly believe that the things that I create, which I do, need to get in the hands of my human, I want to name them, I want to frame where else they listen. You can do all the demographic stuff, but if you have a real human, you don't need any of that. You're not like, he's 24 to 48. You're like, what? Who's a 24 to 48 year old? I've never met one of those. These things don't make any sense to me. And so it's a real person. I know where they watch other stuff, I know where they consume other things. And then before I write something to them, I'm going to say it out loud. And in the beginning even, because this is a friend of mine who's in media too, I would call him and be like, I'm just gonna say some stuff and I want you to react. And like, you know, he would say really inappropriate things back to me. Like, I don't think you're allowed to say this anymore. But he would be like, well, that's gay. And I'd be like, you can't say that out loud. And then I go, oh, he's kind of inappropriate. And like, those Real human things are things that we have lost in the media because we are so afraid of offending somebody. And yet, if you guys need to know it, this guy's gay. And so, you know, like, he, like, which really doesn't matter one way or the other. And yet, like, if you can't talk like that to a human, then you're never gonna have a deep connection. You know, if I can't make fun as a Latina that the fact that I think the word Latinx was made up by a bunch of white people in Berkeley, then like, no Latinos are gonna connect with me. Who's here? A Latino. That's like, yeah, right.

[Sean Cannell]

It was vas.

[Cody Sanchez]

I mean, tuvasa a lar con un Latino como Latin sayos go queue. Okay. No. And so like, that's what your people are looking for. They want to know that you're real and that you're really talking to them.

[Sean Cannell]

That's one of my favorite. Give it up for that.

[Cody Sanchez]

Hi, my name is Irina Hetteman. Fifteen years ago, I became a certified career and life coach. And then I pivoted about 10 years ago to helping women at midlife transition their create their next chapter. And then on YouTube and in my coaching business, I went, I Sorry I'm so starstruck here you're doing. I renamed my business thrive after 45. And then on YouTube, that sort of pivoted again without my planning it to, but I'm happy it has because I put out a couple of videos on my own personal experience with perimenopause and how I didn't know anything. This is a while back and wow. It just. The viewers started coming and coming and coming. And then since then I've done more and I've been very blunt. And thanks to VRA Elite and my amazing family there, I've gotten a lot of suggestions to just be really real, really open it, open up. And just a little TMI perhaps. And that video for my little teeny channel has grown to 230,000 views. That's amazing. And I realized there is a need out there. I don't want to coach one to one anymore. I'm tired of that. It's exhausting. I want to scale my business. And I've heard this before, but what you said today, somehow the way you said it, don't rely on YouTube. You've got to be monetizing in other ways. You have to have your business. Not sure right now. So my question is, if you were me, I'm almost 60, not that that should limit me, of course, but what business would you choose from where I am now going forward, I'm going to say something you might not like, which is you already know the answer. All of us already do. Nobody is ever going to give you better advice for the big, deep questions in your life than yourself. And so I heard it in your voice, you were like, hey, guys, does she want to do one on one consulting anymore? So I could tell you what not to do, but the next step from that is also don't tell me what your goals are. Tell me what you're willing to do to get to your goal. And so if what you want is to no longer coach one on one people, give yourself some sacrifices in order to do that. I will take X amount of clients for one on one consulting and I will pour every single dollar into why that will get me to the place that I want to be. And when you start setting what you're willing to sacrifice for what you're willing to get, the universe kind of goes, okay, I see you. And then you start making real progress. I think most of our desires die at the altar of what I want, but I'm not willing. And so ask yourself that question and it sounds like you kind of already know the answer. I'm excited to see your journey. I think it's a really important topic for this next stage. I mean, this is like so fun for all the guys in the room. I'm like, let's talk menstruation. The guys need to know about perimenopause and menopause because trust me, it is going to affect your partner at some point, if it hasn't already. My husband knows. But the thing is that I think it's a really cool topic. You seem really passionate about it. When people are passionate about it, they know a lot about it. They have a lived experience, they're super curious and they're willing to do the work. Some type of magic happens. I'm excited to see your journey. Thank you. Hi, Shawn. Hi, Cody. Cody. I'm such a big fan. So I'm super happy to be here. My name is Jasmine. I'm a tax strategist and an agent of the irs. I predominantly serve. Oh, no. I promise I'm on your side. Really important. Really important. I'm on your side. I predominantly help creators and entrepreneurs with tax planning and financial literacy. I've recently found some success with working with Shark Tank's Kevin Harrington on pushing my mission forward of teaching. The part that I struggle with is being a Woman in a mainly male dominated industry. So I wanted to know your opinion on how you battle that or address that as also a woman in a male dominated industry. Yeah. You want to know my real opinion?

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think the words that you say matter. So when you say I struggle as a woman in a male dominated industry, what do you think the universe gives back? Struggle. When you say it's awesome to be the only woman in this industry because every Tom, Dick and Larry in a blue suit doesn't get remembered, but I do, what does the universe give you? Something a little bit different. And so I actually think we were sold so many bags of lies that because we are. Think about it for a second. The melanin in our skin is the most interesting thing about us. The fact that I have a different anatomical part, I think, than you do is, you know, is the most interesting thing about us. Who I choose to have sex with is the most interesting thing about us. What a sad existence. If that's true. What a sad existence. You are so much more than a woman. You are a builder. You are a builder. And I actually don't care at all what anybody's skin color is, what their ethnic background is, what their religion is. I care about are you a builder or are you a burn it downer? And anything else. I don't care. So what I would say is I was in finance. And don't get me wrong, this isn't to say that there aren't annoyances when you are the small guy, the uncommon, the newest in a sea of sameness. There is. But how does iron get sharp? It gets sharpened by more iron. And so maybe this thing that you think is annoying is actually the best thing that could ever happen to you. And what would your life feel like if you thought that way? Do you think you'd be thinking that more things are possible and you could do more because of it? And I would challenge you to do that because I spent 15 years in finance. I got my ass slapped. I got played around with the boys, you know, I got all, you know, couldn't go to the 19th hole for golf, like. But the thing is, like, I've met very few men ever that actually wanna, oh, woman. Nope, gatekeeping her. Like, this is a fallacy. This is a fallacy in a bag of lies. And there are a few of them for sure. Just like there are a few women that are like, no dudes allowed here, having less sixth grade, you know. But in actuality, we all wanna help each other out and let me you up a little bit. You have chromosomes that both males and females have. And so does he. And so we all have a lot more in common than we have differently. So I would say go be you and crush it and never again label yourself as your sex in an industry again. You are so much more than that. Thank you so much.

[Sean Cannell]

All right, come on. Can we give it up for Cody Sanchez? Thank you. To all the questions. Hey, if you've been enjoying this conversation with Cody Sanchez and you've been thinking about starting or growing a YouTube channel this year, then I want to give you a heads up that for a limited time, I'm giving away copies of my book, YouTube Secrets for Free. All you got to do is go to ytsecrets.com or click the link in the show notes, enter your information and where you want me to mail you the book. And if you cover shipping, that's all I ask, then I will get the book in the mail to you right away. This book is actually brand new and updated with 90 new pages. The second edition we added some new chapters for some of the biggest changes that are happening on YouTube. Plus it covers the foundational seven step framework for starting, growing, getting subscribers, getting views and I think you're going to absolutely love it. So if you go to ytsecrets.com you can take advantage of this limited time offer. And also if you got value out of today's episode, it means the world. If you like, rate, share, review wherever you watch or listen to the Think Media podcast, you can also check out Cody's resources in the description. And until next time, my name is Sean Cannell. Your guide to building a profitable YouTube channel. This is the Think Media podcast and I will catch you in a future episode.