417: Why Most YouTubers Can’t Grow in 2025...

Summary

Summary of The Think Media Podcast Episode 417: "Why Most YouTubers Can’t Grow in 2025..."

Release Date: May 29, 2025
Host: Sean Cannell
Guest: Pat Flynn, Founder of Small Smart Passive Income

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1. Introduction

In Episode 417 of The Think Media Podcast, host Sean Cannell engages in an insightful conversation with Pat Flynn, a seasoned content creator and entrepreneur. Pat Flynn brings a wealth of experience from building multiple successful YouTube channels, including his prominent Pokemon-focused ventures. The discussion revolves around the evolving landscape of YouTube, the challenges creators face in 2025, and strategies to overcome them.

2. Pat Flynn’s YouTube Strategy

a. Overview of Channels

Pat Flynn currently manages four active YouTube channels:

• Switchpod: Currently on autopilot.
• Deep Pocket Monster: A long-form Pokemon channel boasting 1.54 million subscribers over four years.
• Short Pocket Monster: A shorts channel that has amassed 2 billion views and 1.3 million YouTube subscribers, alongside 1.4 million TikTok subscribers and nearly 1 million Instagram followers.
• Additional Channels: Pat mentions other minor channels contributing to his overall presence.

Pat Flynn highlights the importance of experimenting with different formats to unlock various algorithmic advantages.

b. Growth with Shorts

Pat’s Short Pocket Monster channel serves as a prime example of leveraging short-form content to achieve exponential growth. By consistently producing engaging shorts, he has tapped into a vast audience, demonstrating the power of strategic content distribution.

Pat Flynn [02:33]: "If you've heard the jingle, 'Should I open it or should I keep it sealed?', those are my videos, man."

3. Starting on YouTube

a. Community Involvement

Before creating content, Pat Flynn emphasizes the necessity of immersing oneself in the target community. Understanding the audience's preferences, pain points, and interests is crucial for delivering relevant and engaging content.

Pat Flynn [02:53]: "Get involved in the community, like, know who it is that you're serving. Watch other videos in the space, read the comments, see what people like, see what people dislike."

b. Consistent Uploads

Pat advocates for consistent content creation as a means to identify what resonates with the audience. Emphasizing quantity over perfection helps creators learn and adapt more swiftly.

Pat Flynn [03:41]: "Count uploads, not likes. Count uploads, not views. That quantity is actually really key to get your wheels going, to get you comfortable, and just to kind of figure out what works and what doesn't."

4. Essential Skills for New Creators

a. Storytelling

Storytelling emerges as the most critical skill for YouTubers. Pat underscores that compelling narratives can significantly enhance viewer retention and engagement, regardless of the technical quality of the video.

Pat Flynn [03:54]: "I mean, I think it's storytelling. I mean, that's not quote, unquote technical."

Using examples like Brady Brandwood’s Leon the Lobster, Pat illustrates how a strong story can captivate millions without relying on high-end equipment.

Pat Flynn [04:59]: "How can you tell a story, Tell a story through the title and thumbnail. Tell a story in your videos to retain people."

b. Lean Learning and Micro Mastery

Facing the challenge of information overload, Pat introduces the concept of micro mastery, advocating for focused learning on specific aspects of content creation one at a time.

Pat Flynn [12:47]: "This is something that I practice all the time. Instead of just continuously hitting publish and just hoping each video is better, pick one little part of the process."

By systematically mastering individual components, creators can build a robust and scalable content strategy without being overwhelmed.

5. Effective Use of Time and Overcoming Information Overload

Pat identifies overlearning as the primary time waster for new YouTubers. In an age where information is abundant, he advises focusing on just-in-time learning—acquiring knowledge as needed rather than preemptively consuming vast amounts of data.

Pat Flynn [09:47]: "What is the next step? This is what I like to call the lean learning process."

He recommends maintaining a digital Shoebox to store non-essential information, thereby minimizing distractions and enhancing focus on actionable steps.

6. Shorts vs. Long Form Content

a. Pat Flynn’s Experiments and Results

Pat shares his 60-day experiment with short-form content, which led to a breakout video hitting 750,000 views on day 35, followed by a surge in subsequent videos. This experiment underscores the potential of shorts in rapidly expanding reach.

Pat Flynn [05:54]: "Shorts are great because you can just experiment… And sometimes you might not catch anything, sometimes you'll get a small fish, but if you keep going, you'll eventually catch that big fish."

b. Monetization Insights

Pat discusses the monetization potential of both shorts and long-form videos. While shorts can drive massive view counts and brand awareness across platforms, long-form content offers more substantial monetization opportunities through ad revenue and deeper audience engagement.

Pat Flynn [61:11]: "And we have an approach where if you have a shorts channel that's pulling in revenue, you can reinvest that into your community."

c. Recommendations for Creators

Pat advises creators to focus on mastering one format before expanding into another. For instance, building a solid foundation with either shorts or long-form content can pave the way for subsequent growth without diluting efforts.

Pat Flynn [48:18]: "I think you need to focus on one, master it, and then you can kind of unlock the next one."

7. Building a Personal Brand and Community

a. Universe Building

Universe building involves creating an immersive and cohesive environment around one’s brand, fostering a strong and memorable identity that resonates with the audience. This strategy transcends mere content creation, aiming to establish a brand ecosystem that fans can explore and engage with deeply.

Pat Flynn [54:34]: "Universe building is about creating a cohesive and immersive world around your brand or personal identity."

b. Importance of Mentors and Networking

Pat highlights the significance of having champions in one’s journey—emotional supporters, peers, and personal mentors. These relationships provide invaluable support, accountability, and guidance, enabling creators to navigate challenges more effectively.

Pat Flynn [38:14]: "You cannot do this alone. You have to get out of your chair and go to events or meet people in online communities and start to form even just one buddy to hold each other accountable with can, can be the game changer."

8. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

In this episode, Sean Cannell and Pat Flynn delve into the multifaceted strategies essential for YouTubers aiming to thrive in 2025. Key takeaways include:

• Prioritize Storytelling: Craft compelling narratives to enhance viewer engagement and retention.
• Embrace Consistency: Regular uploads help uncover what works and build momentum.
• Manage Information Overload: Focus on actionable learning and implement strategies step-by-step.
• Leverage Shorts Strategically: Utilize short-form content to expand reach while maintaining a strong long-form presence for monetization.
• Build a Supportive Community: Cultivate relationships with emotional supporters, peers, and mentors to sustain growth and navigate challenges.
• Adopt Universe Building: Create an immersive brand environment to foster deeper connections with the audience.

Pat Flynn’s success with both his long-form and shorts channels exemplifies the effectiveness of a balanced and strategic approach to content creation. By focusing on storytelling, consistent action, and community building, creators can overcome the pitfalls of information overload and achieve sustainable growth on YouTube and beyond.

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Notable Quotes:

• Pat Flynn [02:53]: "Get involved in the community, like, know who it is that you're serving."
• Pat Flynn [03:41]: "Count uploads, not likes. Count uploads, not views."
• Pat Flynn [03:54]: "I think it's storytelling... It's how you tell a story that matters."
• Pat Flynn [05:54]: "Shorts are great because you can just experiment..."
• Pat Flynn [09:47]: "What is the next step? This is what I like to call the lean learning process."
• Pat Flynn [12:47]: "Instead of just continuously hitting publish and just hoping each video is better, pick one little part of the process."
• Pat Flynn [38:14]: "You cannot do this alone... forming even just one buddy to hold each other accountable can be the game changer."
• Pat Flynn [54:34]: "Universe building is about creating a cohesive and immersive world around your brand or personal identity."

This episode provides a comprehensive roadmap for content creators seeking to navigate the complexities of YouTube in 2025, emphasizing the blend of creativity, strategic planning, and community engagement as pillars of success.

Transcript

[Sean Cannell]

Hey, before we jump into the show, I wanted to give you a heads up that my free YouTube strategy class is available right now on [e-mail] on the class, I reveal the one YouTube strategy we use at Think Media to generate over 330,000 views every single day. So if you're new to YouTube, this will help you start right and avoid mistakes. And if you're a YouTube pro, this training will help you multiply your your growth. This class is 100% free and you can watch it now on [e-mail] now let's jump into today's show. So you've probably seen that there's a lot of content out there about how to start and grow on YouTube. But in today's world, everything has changed. There's more information coming at us than ever before. There's more confusion and overwhelm that creators are feeling. Some people are plateaued and their views are down. And those that want to start channels, they really need a new approach. And so in this video we're going to be learning from an expert who's built multiple successful YouTube channels, has succeeded with long form and shorts, has made a ton of mistakes and we can learn from those mistakes and how we don't have to make the same mistakes ourselves. And going to be talking about basically public enemy number one that is holding creators back. And so in today's episode I'm talking with Pat Flynn, who is the founder of Small Smart Passive Income and also has a huge Pokemon channel, has started multiple different channels around that and has learned so many lessons that he's going to share with us today. Pat Flynn, welcome back to the podcast.

[Pat Flynn]

What's up Sean? Thanks for having me back.

[Sean Cannell]

So give us a quick rundown. What all YouTube stuff do you have going that you're active in that you've done in the past? Like how many channels?

[Pat Flynn]

Three active channels. We have spi, which you and I have spoken about before. Actually four. One of them is the Switchpod, which you've also interviewed me for a while back, but that's kind of on autopilot right now, which is cool. Then Deep Pocket Monster, which is the long form Pokemon channel. We are at 1.54 million subscribers in about four years, which is insane. And then more recently I started a shorts channel separately as an experiment mostly just to see if I could unlock the algorithm there. And I was able to. We are at 2 billion views and over 1.3 million subscribers on YouTube, 1.4 million subscribers on TikTok, almost at a million on Instagram from a video that takes me 15 minutes a day to create. And I found a formula that works. We're probably going to get into it, I'm sure. But yeah, Short Pocket Monster, or if you've heard the jingle, should I open it or should I keep it sealed? Those. Those are my videos, man.

[Sean Cannell]

I love it. So that just kind of lays the foundation that you really know what you're talking about. You've learned a lot of success, principles, made mistakes we can learn from. And before we get into really one of the biggest things that is holding creators back right now on YouTube, I want to just do kind of a quick lightning round. First question, what's the first thing a new YouTuber should do before even turning on the camera?

[Pat Flynn]

Make sure the mic is working too. I've made that mistake before. Anyway, for real, though, get involved in the community, like, know who it is that you're serving. Watch other videos in the space, read the comments, see what people like, see what people dislike. When I joined the Pokemon community in 2021, which, by the way, I didn't know anything about Pokemon beforehand, before I started recording anything, I just started getting involved and learning and listening. I was a moderator for a number of channels over there, just really immersing myself in the space so that I could find out what was missing. And I think that's really important so that when you start creating and hitting publish, you're bringing something new, or at least hypothesizing on what's new. And then from there it's about reps. Count uploads, not likes. Count uploads, not views. That quantity is actually really key to get your wheels going, to get you comfortable, and just to kind of figure out what works and what doesn't. And if you just are so worried about perfection, you're never going to learn.

[Sean Cannell]

One of the things that holds creators back is kind of fear the gear or tech, the camera gear, and overwhelm with that what's actually one technical skill that most new creators struggle with that's actually pretty easy to learn. And how would you go about that?

[Pat Flynn]

I mean, I think it's storytelling. I mean, that's not quote, unquote technical. But There is a YouTube channel called Brady Brandwood who got famous because he bought a lobster from the grocery store and raised it as a pet. Leon the lobster, if you've ever heard of that. Rest in peace, by the way, because Leon just passed away. And there are millions of views on this video about a lobster who had passed away because he had built this relationship over time with his, with, with his viewers. He just films on an iPhone. The story is locked in. Can I actually raise a grocery store lobster as a pet? And that first video that came out in, I don't know, 20, 19 or so had like 20 million views. Whereas all of his other videos were just kind of random. But it was the story that made people curious and then the ongoing story that kept people watching. So if I could pass any skill to any YouTuber right now, that would unlock not just fun, but also just, you know, more retention, more click through rates. It's how can you tell a story, Tell a story through the title and thumbnail. Tell a story in your videos to retain people. Which of course, if you help people, stick around on YouTube and retain people till the end, YouTube is going to help you by pushing that video out.

[Sean Cannell]

If someone has just 30 minutes a day to start and grow their YouTube channel, what should they focus on?

[Pat Flynn]

30 minutes a day. So let's go. I wouldn't film a video on day one. I would plan out a video starting with title and thumbnail, nail that on day one, 30 minutes on Monday, nail that title and maybe the second day, Tuesday is thumbnail. Then that informs what your hook is going to be because you have this promise based on the title, thumbnail. And that's going to be Wednesday, working on the hook and scripting out your video, outlining it. Thursday is, I'm going to say film day and Friday and maybe into the next week is going to be editing. And then you just kind of rinse and repeat that cycle as much as possible. And again, the more you do it, the faster you will get on my shorts channel. It used to take me 45 minutes to make these daily shorts that I do. Now it's 13 to 15 minutes per day because I've done it so often, I have the templates and the procedures and it's just like second nature.

[Sean Cannell]

Now, would you folks start with shorts or long form if you were a new creator?

[Pat Flynn]

That's the money question, right? I feel like it depends on your style and the kinds of stories you want to tell. It's really easy and simple to to start a shorts channel because you can tell smaller stories. You can create little series that may or may not do well without too much penalty. I mean, there's really no penalty with publishing anyway. Unless you were to actually just publish the same video over and over again, which is not okay to do. But again, the shorts are great because you can just experiment and Every day is like casting a new bait out in the ocean and just reeling in a little bit, seeing if you catch that big tuna. And sometimes you might not catch anything, sometimes you'll get a small fish, but if you keep going, you'll eventually catch that big fish. With my shorts channel, I did it for 60 days straight. That was the experiment. Can I go 60 days daily? And I just committed to that. And around day 30, I was only getting a couple hundred views per day on these videos. Normally, if I was counting like, or if I was counting views, I would have given up, but I said, no, I'm going to go 60 days. I started to get faster, started to pay attention to what was working and what wasn't. Day 35, one of those videos hit 750,000 views and then all the videos came up. And so again, it takes time to learn. But if you just get in your own way, it's never going to happen. With longs, it does take a little bit longer to get to those stories and to unlock those things. But there's pros and cons, right? Growth happens faster on shorts. Monetization is much, much more fruitful on longs, but the two can work together as well.

[Sean Cannell]

And so it sounds like what I heard you say, though, if you were going to approach long form content and you were working 30 minutes a day, you would post about one video a week and you would use these blocks of time every day to build out a strong video and try to ultimately aim for a video a week.

[Pat Flynn]

Correct. But also realizing that it's going to take several weeks before things start to happen. I might get lucky. We see some YouTubers who on their first video just somehow crack the code. And that's great. They've probably learned and they're applying and that's fantastic. But the learning comes from doing. I think it was MKBHD who said his first 100 videos were for less than 100 subscribers. And that when I interviewed him and he said that, it was so. It was like a breath of fresh air. Like, okay, I don't gotta get it right on the first time. And it was after that hundredth video that he had won that, like, my shorts channel surfaced and did really well for him.

[Sean Cannell]

What is the biggest time waster that you see new people creating YouTube content fall into?

[Pat Flynn]

I think over learning. There's so much content out there from so many amazing YouTubers like yourself teaching YouTube. And, you know, it's. It's like, it reminds me of a couple colleagues I had back in my Architecture day, days before I got laid off. This is back like in 08. I used to golf every Sunday out of my firm. And I had two friends who I golf with, Terry and George. Terry was, like, obsessed with golf. If you imagine his cubicle stacks of Golf Magazine, he was putting at lunch on his little automatic putt returner thing, and he was just consuming so much Golf Channel. He was terrible at golf. Right. And you could hear him when he was about to take a shot. He would mutter the next tip that he learned from that magazine that past week. And he was never consistent. Whereas George, you wouldn't know that he was really a golfer until you saw him golf, because he got coached. He didn't pay attention to all the new tactics and tips and techniques and new drivers that could, you know, increase whatever. He just had his way. He was repetitive and consistent. And you just crushed us every single time. And I think when it comes to YouTube, a lot of us are like Terry. There are so many amazing pieces of content. We don't want to miss out on that next tip. That may be the game changer, but the truth is we live in a world now where there's so much info, it's actually overwhelming us. Our brains are not evolved to handle so much info. They're evolved to when we see something that could be helpful to take it. And back in the day, when you and I started, information was valuable because it was scarce. Now it's everywhere. Right. Remember Encyclopedia Britannicas?

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

If you had an Encyclopedia Britannica, you were like upper class because you could afford information that other couldn't. Now it's in our phones. We all have the access to the same information. It's like we're at a buffet line and we're just filling our plates. All the while, we're also getting force fed from other algorithms that are putting food in our mouth. Like, it's just. It's just like a diet. We're so tired. We're so obese with information. Now the idea is, what is the next step? This is what I like to call the lean learning process. Figure out what your next step is. Learn just about that next step. Go do the thing and then rinse and repeat, trusting that there will be new information out there. On steps two, four, ten, that information's going to be there. It's not going away, but focusing on your next step, learning about that, mastering it, and. And then unlocking that next step is the way to go. So for a YouTuber, find one mentor, Sean, learn his strategies do it his way and then take action. Hit publish. The data is what's going to help you more than you learning and reading every book and watching every video from every YouTube about YouTube. It's just common sense now.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah, I love this. We were just talking about this because you have a new book coming out called Lead Learning how to Achieve More by Learning Less. And this makes me think you're identifying like public enemy number one for creators right now. Too much information, inspiration, overload, information overload. It reminds me when I went and got started in video 2003 for my local church, the Internet was just getting started with information. Online video and upload speeds wasn't super heavy. YouTube doesn't even start till 2005. We start a channel for my local church in 2007 and I never went to film school or anything and so I was self taught. I'm choosing the wrong frame rate, I'm trying to learn things and I was ravenous for content on how to make video, how to edit and none of it existed. I remember back in like around 2010, Tony Reali came out with this like 40 part YouTube series on how to shoot video with DSLRs and it was like a game changer. The DSR revolution's happening but now things have flipped. Like there was an under amount of information, like people needed to learn new skills. Now there's this over amount of information. So you already kind of broke down these frameworks. But I do want to hit this a little bit deeper. Like in a 2025 world and beyond, small YouTubers are staying small because they're 30 minutes a day, or two hours a day, or three hours a day is just going to overconsumption of information and not doing. But tell us a little bit more also about how then do we not just maybe reduce or waste time learning but actually learn smart? Because the fundamental gap between where creators listening to this, entrepreneurs listening to this, where they want to go is they need to get the right information and they need you to learn new skills. But where do you get it? It's so overwhelming. So how do we lean learn in this year?

[Pat Flynn]

Nice. This is perfect. So there is a strategy I call in the book micro mastery. And this is something that I practice all the time. And for a YouTuber it's actually pretty obvious. Instead of just continuously hitting publish and just hoping each video is better, pick one little part of the process. Let's say it's coming up with good titles and literally just hyper focus on that. You're still going to Create a video and the rest of the video is still going to need help too. But if you hyper focus, for example on the titles, and we know this because titles are extremely important and hopefully you've learned this already, if you learn how to craft a great title and you focus on that for your next month's worth of videos, you're going to see some results. The retention still might be needing help, but you're focusing on that hyper sort of awareness of the title and then it becomes second nature to you and then it stacks on. The next thing that you hyper focus on, it might be the hook. Okay, my next video, I'm going to nail the hook. So who's doing hooks really well? Let me learn all about hooks. Let me, let me consume now at this point, YouTube videos, just about hooks. Let me read about hooks. Let me examine and uncover what's working. And then you implement that. You learn as you do and you then stack that on top of the next thing. And the next thing. This is micromastery. When I started speaking on stage, and you know this, you've seen me speak on stage and I do believe that I'm pretty good at speaking on stage. But it didn't happen just by going up on stage and just hoping I was better. I micro mastered. How do I tell stories? I micromastered. Where do I go on the stage and stand? I micromastered. What do I do with my hands? Like I'd literally go into a presentation and go, okay, I'm gonna learn about what I should do with my hands today. So I just watched TED talks, I watched other world class speakers and just focus on the hands alone. And now I'm able to just naturally do with my hands what I believe and have learned to be great. So micromastering is how you continually learn as you do the reps with purpose. It's the doing and the action that's going to help you learn. It's, you know, we're in this place now where we're confusing collection of information with creating. That's not creating, it's only confusing us. Like you said, the sort of junk sparks as I call them. Right. With so much inspiration out there, we have to put the blinders on. The hard thing is we have this FOMO that comes in like I think a lot of us know we shouldn't eat junk food, but we still eat it. A lot of us know we shouldn't consume all the information, but we still consume it.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

So what do we do? You have a little virtual or digital Shoebox. I use Notion. A lot of other people use Evernote, whatever. If you come across a piece of content that does not relate to your next step, now put it aside in that little box and your brain goes, okay, it's there when I need it. So you're comfortable now refocusing 99% of time. You're never even going to go back to it. It's just a tactic to help you get rid of fomo. And it's a way for you to reaffirm, almost opt back into the thing that you've already said yes to and committed to.

[Sean Cannell]

Hey, we're about to get back into the podcast in just a second, but I have a question for you. Do you want to grow your personal brand this year? Do you need more leads and sales in your business? If the answer is yes, then right now is the best time to go all in on YouTube. Today's podcast is brought to you by Think Masterclass D, where you can get on demand access to a one hour deep dive training revealing how to start and grow a profitable YouTube channel. This year, for a limited time, you can get access to this on demand class entirely for free, where you will learn the three biggest mistakes that people make when starting a YouTube channel. The new rules and changes that have been happening on YouTube and how you can use them to create an unfair advantage, and the exact strategy we use at Think Media to generate over 3, 350,000 organic views every single day. The data is clear. 70% of viewers claim that YouTube makes them more aware of new brands. So don't wait any longer to start growing your brand and business with YouTube. Just go to thinkmasterclass.com to get access to this. No fluff, highly tactical, free on demand training. That's thinkmasterclass.com to be in the creator economy, you have to be creatine. And the reason it's called, it's called creativity, not consumativity.

[Pat Flynn]

Exactly. Do the things while you're reading it. But yet we are just in this, I don't know, condition that we've been conditioned to be in, which is from education. Right? You read the full book, then you take a test on it, you read the whole textbook and you have to write an essay about it. It's like, no, life is not like that. What's the next step? This is, this is what I call it. The difference between just in time information and just in case information. The just in case is the killer. But again, let's not even worry about percentages. Just what's the Next thing you need to do, who's doing that well, and you can learn from them. So you avoid the same mistakes and then just do the thing and assess and then, you know, make it better the next time and iterate on that. That's literally it.

[Sean Cannell]

I think you're setting some people free, and I think people have different personality types. If you watch the YouTube version of this podcast, you can let us know in the comments. Are you the type of person who, if you start a book, you, like, have to finish it? It's like. It's just the fact you started is like, I have to finish it before I start another one. Some people's personality is. They got a whole pile of books and they'll read through it. So it's different personalities. But that's an interesting idea. Once you got the information you need, you could set it aside. Once you have what you need and enough to take action on, you could actually stop learning entirely until you hit the next roadblock.

[Pat Flynn]

Correct.

[Sean Cannell]

But it's a mindset shift because we also do just want the just in case information. Let me finish the thing fully and take the test. But nothing's ultimately been created at that point.

[Pat Flynn]

The hard part is like, oh, I don't know what's going to happen after, right? Like, oh, I need to know the full plan before I go. But if you look at, like, a pie chart of all the things about anything, you know, it's 100% what you need to get started right now is like a 2% sliver of that. And now, because we live in this world where we know we have the ability to find these resources, you just have to trust that those will be there when the time is right. For example, when I launched my very first business, Helping Architects Pass an exam, this website still exists, by the way. Greenexamacademy.com, i wrote a study guide. I didn't know how I was going to sell it. I didn't know how to format it. I've never written a book before, but I took it in steps. Step one, I just took out Microsoft Word and wrote it, because I knew that I wouldn't even need to worry about selling the thing until I had the book done. So once I wrote the manuscript in Microsoft Word, I was like, okay, I have this thing. How do I make it look good? I don't know. Well, let's find people who've done it before. And this is back in 2008, before even all the information was available, I was still able to find out how to format a PDF file to make it look like a nice ebook. Okay, cool. I got the ebook. Now how do I sell this thing? I don't know. Well, let's go to people who have sold things before. And I was in a mastermind group. It was very simple. Hey, I. I have this PDF file ready to sell it. How do I do this? Oh, PayPal, e junkie.com, if you remember. E Junkie. Yeah. Now there's, like, you know, Sam Card, gumroad, whatever. And then I got it done. And it's just like, the crazy thing about this is when I had that book and I didn't have the tools to sell it, I was determined to find the answer, because every day that I didn't find the answer, it was like a day that this thing wasn't for sale. I was more driven because of this versus what most people do is let me learn about this whole process and, oh, my gosh, this is so overwhelming. There's no way I can do this. I have to do all these things. No, just do the next thing and do it well. Just like with the switchpod, we had never invented anything before, but we made a prototype out of cardboard because we knew we needed to get the shape right before anything. Then we 3D printed it. Then we gave it to you and Roberto Blake and a few others to hold it and tell us what was wrong with it or what they like better. And we didn't know how to market it. And then we learned from people who had done Kickstarter before. It's just. That's it. Like, you can build it as you go. Those resources are there, and it is a huge mindset shift. You have to let go of the fact that you don't need to know all the things down the road, just what's on this next turn, and how do you make sure you don't take the turn too fast or that there's not, like, a tiger hanging behind the bush over there. I don't know where you'd be with the tiger, but, you know, I'm saying, like, take it one step at a time. Learn, go, repeat until you master that, and then move on to the next things.

[Sean Cannell]

Having this massive. What I'm taking away is have a massive inclination towards taking action, messy action. Good enough for today. One of my favorite quotes. General Patton said, a good plan violently executed today is much better than the perfect plan executed next week, and so good enough to put in some reps to get started. And the number one skill in a 2025 world and beyond. When it comes to starting a YouTube channel, succeeding on YouTube and then starting the next step, monetizing, building a business around it, all these different things is not overthinking about a million steps, not getting a bunch of just in case information, but having just enough information to take action, implement it. You go of course, in a more details in your book and we'll make sure everything's in the show notes. But I am curious if you were to make a syllabus, knowing what you know now about YouTube, for the top skills that eventually make up. And I know it's kind of. I don't want it to be counterintuitive in this episode. Like you don't go try to learn all these skills today, but if you're thinking about building out your skill tree. If we used a gamer analogy and we want to level up and as your skill tree is growing, what do you think is the skills slash syllabus of a modern, successful content creator?

[Pat Flynn]

I love this question. How many points do I get for the skill tree that I get to allocate?

[Sean Cannell]

10.

[Pat Flynn]

10 points.

[Sean Cannell]

Zero. Yeah. If you're a 10 out of 10 or you're a one and then it builds out.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah, I would put eight points.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay, I was going to say 10 per point and it builds out like on a scale from 1 to 10. You need to be an 8 at this. You need to be. So.

[Pat Flynn]

No, I was thinking I have 10 skill points to distribute. Here's where I would put them. That's what I thought you meant.

[Sean Cannell]

You have 25 skill points. Is that going to be hard math to do?

[Pat Flynn]

No.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay, 25 total skill points. You're going to weight them in different categories.

[Pat Flynn]

Okay, I would put 15.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

Into storytelling. That's going to give you the maximum leverage. You could have crappy video quality at least, hopefully have good audio quality. That's more important.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

And if you tell a good story, there's a retention. There's the emotional connection and the relationship building. And here's why I say this. Today we are living in a world now where information isn't just abundant, but AI is coming and it's going to level the playing field for anybody who just has information alone. It's how you package that information and connect with the person who's consuming it. And to me, storytelling is going to be the number one skill that everybody, not just YouTubers but just people.

[Sean Cannell]

So can I ask, can I go deeper on that though? If you're going to take 15 points, number one, I'm curious, would you broaden storytelling? Charisma, communication skills, ability to connect storytelling. What does that mean for someone that's just doing talking head videos? Or maybe you're suggesting that that's not good enough anymore. But for maybe also a lot of entrepreneurs, professionals, that of course AI is going to bring better practical information than even you could. But if you're still going to get on camera, teach, you want to get leads and sales for your business. What do you mean by storytelling? Because you're on your Pokemon channel retention. Ryan Trahan, you know, like some of these other channels. But if we also kind of lean on the much broader the education space, how would you define storytelling?

[Pat Flynn]

So I would say half of it is having a good idea.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

So coming up with a concept and an idea that has a start, middle and end. It has a hero's journey, if you will. It has something that relates to the human at the root level. A human need or want or desire. Right. When you look at my Pokemon channels, it's like, oh, Pokemon. Like, how many people could be interested in that? Many of my comments are like, I don't even care about Pokemon. I will watch all these videos to the end because it's about a hunt, it's about finding treasure, it's about the struggles that come along with that and the internal struggles. I mean, we go deep in the storytelling. So half of it would be used for coming up with a good idea, one that's worth even paying attention to. So that's seven and a half points. Let's go three and a half points. So this takes us to 11 out of the 15 on character development. Right? Relating to the audience, understanding who the audience is and why the story matters to them. Right. That's going to be really key because if the story isn't relevant, then nobody's going to pay attention. And then it's about the personality of yours coming through. That's what I would reserve the four remaining points for, is how can you bring you and what you uniquely have to offer into this story that you're telling? Right. You don't have to be over exaggerating like many other people. Might be you just be you. But how can you find the best version of you to show up? So this might be like what you said earlier, charisma. But your charisma. Charisma doesn't always mean like suave or whatever. It just means like you're able to connect with people. And I think that that all encompasses, as we break down, that 15 points for story. So I appreciate you getting into more detail about that.

[Sean Cannell]

We're going to build out all 25 points of this skill tree. 15 points are storytelling. But the dynamics of that have to do with character development, your personality, and then also the big idea, the hero's journey or like the story arc. And I'm curious, how would you apply this though, even more practically to a SPI video? You've got your Pokemon channel. If someone's not even interested in Pokemon, they've. They sometimes find your content and like it because the storytelling is so good or it's interesting or it grabs their attention. But if someone's going to look for like information about traditional loans versus FHA loans or they're going to look for information about, yeah. The housing market, taxes, growing, their business, personal development, and you bring it into, let's, you know, pure education kind of business content. How does Pat Flynn think about crafting an SPI video in today's world in light of, of this storytelling framework? If you're just going to be doing.

[Pat Flynn]

A talking head video because you use your clients as the characters in this story. Right.

[Sean Cannell]

I wish I had a soundboard sound like a siren.

[Pat Flynn]

So you agree with that?

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

I mean, you could just share the information. You need this money down. You need to do it in this amount of time, whatever. Or you can go, hey, this is Joe. His family have this. This is where they're coming from. And they're learning this about the San Diego housing market. It's not cheap, so I'm here to help serve them. So let's go on this journey together. I'm going to show them exactly what you need to know if you're coming and moving to San Diego, which areas have really good school districts, Because I know that's important to these two. They got a five and a two year old. They're about to go to school. So we want to make sure we plan for that. And they're planning on having another kid. Is it okay? I said that, yeah. Okay, cool. They're planning on having another one. I'm not going to get into too much detail about that, but we want to make sure there's enough space for their growing family. And if that sounds like you and you're interested, let's come on this journey.

[Sean Cannell]

Wow.

[Pat Flynn]

Right now you're hooked.

[Sean Cannell]

That's the new way.

[Pat Flynn]

And you're going to learn the same information, but it's going to retain because you're now in referencing to somebody who's just like you as a viewer.

[Sean Cannell]

And they're going to have a connection with you. The content's more entertaining. This could take a little bit more information, a little bit more time and creativity. But the ROI is insane because the views, the breakthrough, the algorithm that happens. I mean, if this is, this is going to track to lead sales prospects at a whole nother level and it's going to set you apart from everybody else.

[Pat Flynn]

Everybody else who's just dry information, chat gpting a script. That's what's happening right now. Gee, but you can't chat GPT your client and their real life story and find out that they're having a kid.

[Sean Cannell]

Yep, that's real. There's connection. You just, you're bringing emotions into it. Super powerful. Okay, so that's how you would do it in any industry business. B2B. B2C. Like, we have 15 points out of 25 that you're allocating of the skill tree that the modern content creator needs to build out. Storytelling is 15 of 25 points with a couple different elements on it, but we still have 10 points to distribute.

[Pat Flynn]

If I was actually playing a game, I'd save them just in case some new characters, like if I'm solo leveling up, I want to save that for later arise. No, I would allocate maybe three points to lighting.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

Like literally just lighting. Yeah, because that's going to, like, no matter what camera you have, if you get the lighting right, it's going to look great. And so just understanding the basics of lighting, which you could of course get from Sean, would, would be great. So that leaves us with what, 12 points? I would also reserve half of the 12 points. So six to be building relationships in the space that you're in, connecting with other YouTubers and other creators, going into spaces where you can meet and talk and even try to form like a little community of people that you can run ideas off of. Because I mean, we live in this world and it's an abundant world, but not everybody thinks that way. But if everybody did, everybody would be helping each other and everybody can grow together. We're not at a poker table, Sean, where if you win, that means I'm losing.

[Sean Cannell]

It's good.

[Pat Flynn]

We're at this table where there's just the more that we serve this audience, the more chips just like come out of nowhere for both of us.

[Sean Cannell]

Right.

[Pat Flynn]

And everybody can win. And that, that's what I truly believe. So I would reserve a lot of points to connecting with people, networking. You know, a lot of people ask me a similar question. Like, Pat, if you had $1,000. And you only had a thousand dollars to start with starting a business. What would you do with it? I would spend it on a plane ticket and a ticket to, I don't know, your event. Yeah, you know, that's a.

[Sean Cannell]

That's a counterintuitive thought. And I know for some now what would you do if somebody's listening and they either one, money is the block or two, they got a couple young kids, like kind of in a life situation where it's like getting on a plane flying to an event. It's just somewhat challenging right now.

[Pat Flynn]

So I can speak to that first one for sure. You know Dan Patrick Norton?

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

He came to your event and I think he volunteered for it.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes, true.

[Pat Flynn]

And he is now my producer at Deep Pocket Monster.

[Sean Cannell]

There you go.

[Pat Flynn]

That got him in the world and he's killing it now for us.

[Sean Cannell]

So he got into my event for free. From serving.

[Pat Flynn]

From serving. Volunteer, help out. All those kinds of things go a really long way. And if you can't do that with the event coordinator, do it with somebody who you know is also coming to the event, who's in that space too. Hey, you have this YouTube channel. I'm an up and comer. Let me be your video camera for the next day so you can focus and I can help create content for you. And you're just now in this space. Right. That's what Drock did with Gary Vee. He filmed Ask. Gary Vee just kind of volunteered to be as his film guy. And then we had a daily Gary V show for years. And now, now Drock's killing it. Right. So that's a way that, you know, you got to get creative with these things.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

Right now.

[Sean Cannell]

So we. I got to bring it back. We had our scores getting a little messed up. It was 15 points on storytelling, so six points on networking and community, three points on lighting. I think I was going out of 25, which mean you only had 10 left, which means we only have one point left.

[Pat Flynn]

But I don't know what the math is.

[Sean Cannell]

Maybe this was the wrong thing to do, but entertaining nonetheless. We're still building out a syllabus. We need a chart at a skill tree. And so, I mean, give me the final ones. Maybe we reorient the points or maybe the final tally is 30 total points. But if we have lighting, we're going to events, we're connecting, we're networking, even if that's online, you know, getting involved in the community. It also makes me think about one of my favorite books that every creator should read Superfans because it's just. It's kind of like the forgotten thing these days. Everyone's like, they want to grow fast. There's a lack of patience and there's the forget. People, I think, are forgetting that, like, communities are built one view at a time. Connection is built. Everybody wants a million views. But if you get one real view, meaningful connection, you engage in the comments, they're transformed by the content. They really enjoy it. And you just do that every single day for three years, five years, 10 years, communities build and. And there's new rules to YouTube success. But some of that tried and true stuff is like, you look at anybody, they were just. They were grinding out the reps. Not for months, but for years of connection. So the connection and community piece. But if there's a couple. Final lighting. I mean, audio editing.

[Pat Flynn]

Editing, yeah. I mean, that's important. So I'd reserve a few points for that. Just to get the basics right.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

That's where the overlearning can really mess you up. Right. Think of all of the buttons in Premiere that you could use to make whatever, vfx, everything. Do you need those things to tell the story? That's why stories are told. There are people who are doing just talking head videos who are killing it.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

With no effects. With one take.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

So you don't know. Need those things. They support the story that you're telling. And of course, every channel is different. I'm thinking of the clear value tax guy.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

He shows up during the pandemic and he's like, angry at the government. And everybody could relate to that. Like, where's my stem money? When's it going to come? I don't know. But I'm pissed off too. And he's telling it, and now he's.

[Sean Cannell]

He's got like his notes on a pile of paper. He just kind of holds up. Toxic camera a lot of times. One take, eight minutes to 10 minutes to 12 minutes.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah.

[Sean Cannell]

A couple hundred thousand subscribers could use.

[Pat Flynn]

Some lighting skill points. But besides that, he's doing great.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

And he's in his tie and he's just angry and it's like. I can relate to that.

[Sean Cannell]

A good point of charisma, too. He has his own style, his own vibe, but he's not like anybody else. He's just kind of being himself. He's been authentic.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah. Yeah. He's got like 1.3 million subs or something like that. Right. And it's valuable information, but it's wrapped in the way that we can relate in his way of telling these stories and providing the information. So editing and I feel that just letting go of perfectionism, I don't know if that's a skill, but it feels like it has to be a skill because we kind of have to unlearn those things. Perfectionism is going to kill you, man.

[Sean Cannell]

I think that is a skill. I think that being okay with.

[Pat Flynn]

Here's a phrase that I like that maybe you dig. I started using it and people have been responding to it. You got to be cringe before they binge.

[Sean Cannell]

You got to be cringe before they binge. Hey, I'm curious, Chad GPT, what is it called to let go of perfectionism? If that was a skill and we were leveling up our characters, is it kind of like rejection, reckless, but taking, you know, risks? What would you say, like, the skill set of letting go of perfectionism is?

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah, letting go of perfectionism is definitely a skill.

[Sean Cannell]

I'd say it's like building your resilience and adaptability stats.

[Pat Flynn]

It's not about being reckless, but more.

[Sean Cannell]

About embracing imperfection, learning from mistakes, and taking risks. It's like leveling up your ability to move forward despite not having everything perfect.

[Pat Flynn]

And that opens up room for creativity and growth.

[Sean Cannell]

What are your thoughts on ChatGPT right there?

[Pat Flynn]

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Oh, that's. Growth comes from. From doing. And it's again, not being reckless, being smart. You know, it's almost like, you know, you're driving and, you know, at the. At the edge of the road, there's those rumble strips that kind of warn you when you're kind of veering off too much. Make sure those are in your life and you have people and, you know, guidelines. But find joy in the finding part of all this. Like, you're going to find yourself through this and your audience is going to find you only when you show up. Perfectionism is just an excuse. And trust me, I was a huge time perfectionist back in the day because I used to. I was kid. That's how I was conditioned. I come home with a 94% of my math test and I'd spend the next freaking four hours with my dad working on the 6% that I got wrong, always feeling like I was a failure. I love you, dad, by the way, but I still remember those days. Not. Okay. Yeah, just. Just count uploads, right? And that's. That's a big thing when it comes to the psyche around this, because if you base your success on how the algorithm feels about you that day on these things that you can't necessarily control. I mean, you're giving up control of how you feel to a machine versus you can control you showing up every day or every week if you're going long form. You can control how you try to get a little bit better at the title this time. You can control how much deeper you go into the story that you're telling about your client this time. Those are the things that you can control. So if you do those things, let's say for 60 days, 90 days, six months, whatever, and you do them, you've won no matter what the views say. And in most of the cases, because you've been encouraged to continue, you will start to see some results and lean into the things that do to get.

[Sean Cannell]

You even more so strong. Count uploads, not views, not views.

[Pat Flynn]

Thank you.

[Sean Cannell]

Alex Ketchum, that as we land the plane, I got a couple other questions for you, and one of them is you emphasize in the book the Power of Champions. How important is it when it comes to this journey of starting and growing a YouTube channel, starting and growing an online business is finding the right mentors.

[Pat Flynn]

I mean, I'm looking at one right now. It's so important. You've helped me so much along the way, and I hope that I've been able to return the favor. You know, there are three kinds of what I like to call champions in a person's life. Number one are your emotional champions. These are your friends, your spouse, your partner, your kids even can help. These are the people who may not know exactly what you're trying to do, but no matter what, they're there for you. It's important to have those in your life, too. April, my wife, was so important in my life. When I had gotten laid off, she was the one who helped me understand that no matter what, we were going to be okay and work through it together. And that was so important, right? So that emotional champion, then you need your peers and colleagues. That's like you and I, you know, we're both in this thing together. We're helping each other out. We're in it for each other and the greater good. And having those kinds of people in your life mastermind groups, right? Coming to events and networking with people who are in the same space. Those people are important, too, because they understand the language. They might not have the time to mentor you, but you guys can help each other out, and that's important. And then the third one, which is really, really important is that personal mentor, right? The person who you either pay or they are taking you under their wing. That one person who's already gone down the same path that you've wanted to go down, who's already made those mistakes, who can guide you through the tough terrain, that person becomes the person who can help you and hold you accountable. And it's the person you look up to who you don't want to let down. That on those tough days where you don't want to go and do the thing, you're going to do the thing because you know they're going to check in with you. Those are the people who, I mean again, some combination of those three.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

Can help you get to where you need to go. You cannot do this alone.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

You have to get out of your chair and go to events or meet people in online communities and start to form even just one buddy to hold each other accountable with can, can be the game changer.

[Sean Cannell]

Man, that's so strong. You know, I would love for you to speak to this too because this whole kind of like learning and online learning space has started. And if you have a skill that you want to attack, it's a superpower to have a. The power of champions. The way you put it around you. I saw you put a video that actually got a ton of views that like online courses are different now that they've changed and we've noticed the same. I still think online courses are incredible but the completion rate, the stats are just real. People just have struggle actually consuming it, actually completing it, actually implementing the stuff. And so I don't even know if we talked about this but we've launched I think media group coaching and one on one coaching capacity is tough because it's. We're keeping the quality really strong. We got like five think media coaches, incredible individuals. And I'm curious though your, your thoughts on how things have changed. We're doing cohort stuff now as well because it's not there. This stuff is always going to be that. We're always going to need learning. We're always going to need to be learning, need to be skill building. But it's changing. Talk a little bit about that because that video popped off for you.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah, it did. You know, I used a more hookable title and you know, beginning of saying I forget what courses are dead. Basically online courses are dead and they are in the traditional sense of just putting information out there and making sales. You have to put you into it. Number one, because people want to buy from individuals, they don't just buy the information anymore. They Want to buy it from somebody who's taught it in a specific way. But more than that, we noticed that when we ran what we call our accelerators, which are sort of like cohort groups through our digital courses, they had a three times more likelihood.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

Of not just completing it, but actually getting success and building the thing to three times more likely.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

So we had to make a decision because. And a lot of creators won't do this. You know, entrepreneurial creators, that is. We had to sacrifice a lot of income because we were still making sales with our online courses, which were being sold for hundreds of dollars each and people were buying multiple. But when we saw the completion rate from these accelerator groups, we said, you know what, we got to bring the community together. Is there such a thing as community powered courses? And that's what we've built. And so we have sacrificed that initial income to bring people into a monthly program on our end to hopefully get long term value from us. Right. Finishing these courses, then moving on to the next one and moving on to the next one. We grow with them such that over time, if we do our job and step up and support these new entrepreneurs, then we'll actually make more revenue in the end.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

Not just from the beginning, but because we've actually delivered on that value we promised. And it's been so much more fulfilling. People have gotten much better results and people have formed their own little groups, even without us asking. I mean, we bring people together too, in a more formal way. But people are starting to understand that there is so much power in connecting with others who are going through that same journey as you or who are just a couple steps ahead.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah. That's so strong. And we've been learning some of the same things. Been watching what you're doing. It's one reason why we've implemented stuff. And it kind of. I mean, in a way, it doesn't feel like it's super new. It reminds me of like, you could buy a $7 or $14 video course for fitness and a couple meal plans and download it and then never watch it. You could pay for a monthly membership at, you know, 24 Hour Fitness for 20 bucks. But you made me never go. You then maybe get into a group and you start going to classes because you're like, okay, I'm gonna show up for the group. And you start to go for classes, you pay even more. You hire a personal trainer. That's also where you get the most results. When you pay, you pay attention because you're like, there's a lot of money on the line. That actually happened for me when I was recovering from chronic pain in my shoulder. I hired a physical therapist, paid him $5,000 for 6 months. I got some dry needling plus some workouts plus plus some massage, plus relearning even how my body was structured. But you better believe after paying the $5,000, I went to the sessions too. Like my show up rate was like basically perfect. And I also then got the transformation. I've been on this healing journey. I'm being able to work out more and better because of really investing with somebody. So in a way I think it's two things. It's kind of like always been true but even more true in this information over load world, wouldn't you say?

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah, I mean a mentor or somebody you hire to help you removes all the noise around the thing that you're doing and just gets you to the exact things that you specifically. Especially when it's like a coach like that it's like hey Sean, your body is going through this. Here's the solution for you.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

Right now as a creator we like to reach a lot of people. So of course trying to relate that to everybody can be hard at times since everybody is different. However, finding what those things are that are the same for everybody and just speaking to principles can work really well. But that's how you then potentially get clients to come in and want that personal information from you.

[Sean Cannell]

So I think this is the final and maybe most important question and the most fierce debate on YouTube that I've maybe ever seen. And we're gonna get that in just a second. But I do want to give a roll call to a few things. Number one, your book, I'm excited about it, Lean Learning.

[Pat Flynn]

Thanks Sean.

[Sean Cannell]

We'll link this up in the description how to achieve more by learning less. Maybe one of the most important books to read. And I say that because everything you write is great a but like the world really has changed. This is the skill set. Public enemy number one, distraction, overwhelm, information, overwhelm. But you can't throw out learning altogether. So having a methodology frameworks and I'm very excited about that. That'll be linked in the show notes. Also if you do want to learn a little bit more about our coaching viral video coach.com. it's just an application. We only work with people that it's a good fit. We learn about you and there's a chance to jump on the phone with us. We'll link that up in the show notes or you can go toviral video coach.com and then Pat, I've got one more question for you, but give us a roll call if we want to connect with you on social. Where are you active? We're going to put it in the show notes.

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah. Thank you. So, Pat Flynn for all the business stuff on most socials, YouTube, Instagram, etc. Pretty active on X actually as well. But I know a lot of people are interested in the Pokemon stuff too. So deep pocket Monster on YouTube for the long form. And then my separate short channel is Short Pocket Monster, which I think is what this question is about, is it not?

[Sean Cannell]

Yes, we're about to get into that question and I do also want to just give a few more free resources, which would simply be our past conversations. You've probably seen that Pat is an awesome strategist, humble, great dude, always has good information. I think we take it all the way back to either NAB or ces. We talked about email marketing and email lists. Yeah. And you've been on the show a couple times and covering different topics. So just giving you some resources to follow up strategically if it's the right thing for you to be lean learning right now. We'll make sure that there's clarity and it's all organized in the show notes for you whether you listened on audio or video. And if you've loved this episode, it's always great to like, rate, share, review. But here's the debate. Shorts versus long form on YouTube. There has been many claims shorts destroy YouTube channels. Shorts will ruin your audience. Shorts are the way to YouTube stardom. Shorts are the only thing working now. Long form is dead, short form is dead. Everyone's got an opinion and I have covered this. But it's always a new world. And the algorithm shifting YouTube is. We know this. They are committed to making this thing work. They are. They're giving us different features. We can upload videos, we can go live, we can upload shorts, we can upload video podcasts. There's Community tab now, it's called Posts. They're evolving that whole experience. So what have you learned at we're recording time right now. It is March 2025. I'm sitting with a YouTube expert that's gotten over 2 billion shorts views, but also grown a long form channel to a million subscribers. Multiple other channels to hundreds of thousands. Got silver play buttons. So this isn't just fluff and theory, which a lot of people are out there, just, you know, some very minor experience. You're really deep shorts Versus long shorts versus long form. Pat Flynn, what are your thoughts?

[Pat Flynn]

Yes.

[Sean Cannell]

Thank you so much. Everybody. Have a great.

[Pat Flynn]

And by that I mean they both work. Okay, but they're not going to work if you try both at the same time.

[Sean Cannell]

Interesting.

[Pat Flynn]

I think you need to focus on one, master it, and then you can kind of unlock the next one. Now every channel is different. There are podcasts, for example, who have long form videos, who then chop them up and then make them short form videos. And they all live on the same channel. And that's great.

[Sean Cannell]

And that, like, if we isolate that, this is sometimes where the debate comes in. That one is such just a logical and clear format that it's like, yeah, that should be on the same channel. Cause it's the same thing.

[Pat Flynn]

Right.

[Sean Cannell]

It's all the same. But. But there's different types of channels. So people are looking for like a universal answer. But if you're a video podcaster and you have long form video podcasts, clips leading to the podcast, it's pretty well known format. So you're hitting that but expand because there's different types of channels listening to.

[Pat Flynn]

Right. So I'll use the Pokemon one, for example. Right. We have Deep Pocket Monster Long form videos. Challenges trying to complete sets in 24 hours, 48 hours. Our videos are getting longer and longer. In fact, the One we published three days ago is one hour and 13 minutes. It's a movie, basically.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

And it was a month after our previous upload because it's taken time, about 150 hours of editing and it's at 1 million views already. After three days.

[Sean Cannell]

You just broke down some gold, though, to people out there. Like, not that you have to do that to get a million views, but you just got a million views. And how many days?

[Pat Flynn]

Three.

[Sean Cannell]

You got a million views in three days. But what went into it was how many days of shooting?

[Pat Flynn]

It was one day of shooting, full.

[Sean Cannell]

Day of shooting, 150 hours of editing. How much cooking up? How many different titles do you think you brainstormed or thumbnails that you kind of package like even in experimenting before you dial.

[Pat Flynn]

I love that you're dissecting this. This one. We have a format for these challenges. So the titles are generally the same.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

Complete set in one day or 48 hours or 24 hours or in two hours or lose it all.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay. So proven format though, because that also took some time. But now that you know it, you plug and play into a proven title format.

[Pat Flynn]

Mm. And now we have the thumbnail, which is different, but did you split test three, we split test two. And we have a thumbnail person who we've hired to take photography. And in fact, this person lives in Canada, So we're on FaceTime. He's directing me what to do with the camera to get the right lighting. I have lighting at home and stuff. This is a little bit more advanced. I'm not gonna. But he gets me in the right angle. I'm holding the binder up, making sure there's no reflections and all this stuff. We remove one of the cards out of the binder so he can put a question mark in there. I have a little ice light underneath me, so it looks like the shelves from a card store are lighting my face. And then he superimposes a 3D kind of card shop. It's a little. It's a lot.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah, it's great.

[Pat Flynn]

But we're trying to be the best.

[Sean Cannell]

And you hit a million views, and.

[Pat Flynn]

We hit a million views.

[Sean Cannell]

And it's a movie.

[Pat Flynn]

It is a movie.

[Sean Cannell]

It's over an hour, but it's also not done yet. You're continuing to build an asset of a media Library on your YouTube channel.

[Pat Flynn]

And the videos are a part of a bigger universe that we have now. This is something we're recently discovering. We have recurring characters, certain shop owners that keep coming back that people are starting to recognize. We have a storyline now. If you think of the channel like an anime, we have story arcs, like in One Piece, right? One Piece is over a thousand episodes. It's ridiculous. But there's the Marineford arc. There's the, you know, other arcs. It's been a while since I've watched One Piece, but there's these mini stories with mini bosses that. That. That have many challenges, and so they all kind of lead into this bigger goal. Right? The. The. The. The goal at the end, the One Piece is real, is the ultimate goal. But throughout that, there's different challenges and there's different new people who come into the crew and all these things that kind of be a part of this world. We have the same thing now. I've. I discovered this when I failed a challenge last year. There's a set called Pokemon 151. And I was trying to finish it in 151 minutes. I failed the first time, and I was like, it's okay. We could do it again. Failed the second time, and again. These. Each fails are separate videos. And people were like, you got to finish after the third time. And I finished. It was such a huge community win because they were on this ride with me and we created this little 151 arc and we're like, oh, my gosh.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

What other arc can we create? Well, what's another goal that we've talked about? Well, trying to collect all 1025 Pokemon across nine generations. Well, that's going to take many videos. Okay, that's our next arc. Let's go. Generation by generation. We've had. We did it. We did that in eight videos because we combined a few. Gen 5 was filmed partly at your event because we went in between the things I had to do to card shops to try to finish it. And that was. That's a million plus view video in Vegas, which has then inspired other cities to reach out to us and want us to visit their cities, to then go to card shops there and support the community. Because we've had people then go to the same card shops that we went to. Anyway, we had that 1025 Pokemon arc in separate videos and then we ended up putting all those videos together into one video as sort of like an end of the year celebration. A four hour video, bro.

[Sean Cannell]

Yep. That's wild.

[Pat Flynn]

It has two and a half million views.

[Sean Cannell]

That's crazy. That is a. That's a Lord of the Rings extended cut.

[Pat Flynn]

Yep. And it is. And we cut out the middle parts to make it look like it was just all tying into each other. And we added a bonus ending.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

That you had to kind of wait till the end for. And we even premiered it. And people were there for four hours watching with us. Straight popcorn during Christmas break. Yes.

[Sean Cannell]

With Sour Patch.

[Pat Flynn]

75, not 75. 65% of our audience is watching on a television on that channel.

[Sean Cannell]

Wow.

[Pat Flynn]

So that's longs.

[Sean Cannell]

So we're going to get back to. Okay, so we're talking about shorts versus longs, but I actually want to highlight a point that every listener and content creator needs to know about in a 2025 world. And it's this idea of universe building. Now, I don't even know what that means, but it's one of the most important, I think, concepts in brand building right now. And so. Hey, Chat GPT. I'm curious, what is universe building? If you are explaining it to content creators and entrepreneurs doing video that are building out their brands and their personal brands as a concept and what are other terms for it?

[Pat Flynn]

Universe building is about creating a cohesive.

[Sean Cannell]

Immersive world around your brand or personal identity.

[Pat Flynn]

For content creators and entrepreneurs, this means developing a recognizable and engaging environment that.

[Sean Cannell]

Fans or customers can explore. It Goes beyond just your products or.

[Pat Flynn]

Videos to include consistent themes, esthetics and messages. Other terms for it might be world.

[Sean Cannell]

Building, brand ecosystem, or brand universe.

[Pat Flynn]

It helps establish a strong memorable identity that resonates with your audience.

[Sean Cannell]

World building was the other one. World building, universe building. So we just blasted off something to research later for our Think Media podcast listeners. But we're talking about shorts versus longs.

[Pat Flynn]

Oh man, I want to go into that so bad because we have certain things in the culture of our brand now, certain phrases like bad binder behavior and certain characters that have come up.

[Sean Cannell]

Well, tell us this if you're on the YouTube version and maybe you want to stop by and visit off of the audio you listen on Spotify, drop in the comments if you'd want Pat Flynn to come back on and for us to do a deep dive episode on world building, universe building, personal brand building, all that kind of stuff. Because we're trying to. We are talking about shorts versus long.

[Pat Flynn]

Okay.

[Sean Cannell]

But I'd love to go deep. So let us know your feedback and any other questions you have because I'd love to have you back on and explore that. But shorts versus longs, so what? So what are you doing? How are you executing? And you did it on two different channels.

[Pat Flynn]

Two different channels. The general rule on YouTube is same audience, same channel. This I knew was going to be potentially a different kind of audience because the person who's going to sit down on the couch with popcorn with their whole family and watch a one hour video and is different from the person who's doom scrolling at night, just kind of trying to fill in time. Or they're on the toilet, which I've called out my audience. I said, hey, if you're on the toilet right now, wash your hands. And like people like, how did you know? Like scary. Just. That's a fun little engagement trick for anybody doing shorts. So I approached it like this. How can I create a show that is 60 seconds or less about Pokemon cards where I rip a package every day and make it interesting enough for people that want to see the next days? So I came up with this concept called Should I open it or Should I keep it Sealed? Now, what's nice about Pokemon cards is that a pack inherently has a mystery in it. Right? You're not sure if you're going to get the good card or the bad card. So of course people stick around and watch that. But I'm not the first person to do pack openings on YouTube. I wanted to do it different. How do I turn it into A show. How do I lean into this mystery a little bit more? So I hired my friends at Music Radio Creative to create a jingle. Should I open it? Should I keep it sealed? Total earworm. I have the original audio file that I sent them that I will never share with the world because it's just.

[Sean Cannell]

It was you. And they made it great.

[Pat Flynn]

They made it great.

[Sean Cannell]

I have to say. I just had a short recommended actually, either on Instagram Reels or YouTube shorts of a DJ at a set, like an EDM rave with like thousands of people there who played your song. You just. So I was like, dude, that's your song. And he had a pack on stage and. And he was. He was opening it on stage and then that was going viral, which is all from you.

[Pat Flynn]

Right.

[Sean Cannell]

That's crazy.

[Pat Flynn]

It's insane. And then at the end, to lean into the sort of reward at the end. Again, if it's a bad card, I have a bad jingle. Oh, no. You should have kept it sealed.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

Or if it's a good one, it's like, wow, you actually got something good. And I've hired the same person from this company, Music Radio Creative, her name's Kim. The voice actress. To just say a bunch of bad things.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

And then say a bunch of good things.

[Sean Cannell]

They're sort of different.

[Pat Flynn]

I have this library now and again now everybody is like, what's it going to be today? And I drop new ones and they're like, we unlocked a new voiceover today. And again, the sound effects that you see in these videos, they're just from a library. They took 45 minutes to create. I wanted to go daily for 60 days. I already told the story of how day 35, everything blew up. But it's the same template and now same fonts. 2 billion views across cross platform.

[Sean Cannell]

How many subs?

[Pat Flynn]

How Many what?

[Sean Cannell]

Subscribers?

[Pat Flynn]

1.35 on YouTube, 1.4 on tick tock.

[Sean Cannell]

Did you already get another gold play button?

[Pat Flynn]

I did.

[Sean Cannell]

So you have two goal play, two.

[Pat Flynn]

Gold play buttons now. This one, I got it in 199 days.

[Sean Cannell]

You got a gold play button on YouTube in 199 from a brand new channel.

[Pat Flynn]

And I did not link to it from the other channel either.

[Sean Cannell]

Wow.

[Pat Flynn]

I did not. I wanted to just see what would happen.

[Sean Cannell]

Even though it was a Pokemon channel.

[Pat Flynn]

Yes.

[Sean Cannell]

I mean, there's people out there being like, don't share your YouTube channel with your mom or your friends because they're not your ideal audience. But like, you didn't share your shorts channel with a Pokemon Longs channel.

[Pat Flynn]

Correct. Because I just wanted to see could I have YouTube find those people for me or all these other algorithms, TikTok.

[Sean Cannell]

And you've looked in the demographics and it is different.

[Pat Flynn]

It is.

[Sean Cannell]

That's interesting.

[Pat Flynn]

It is. And it's just you think about the consumption behavior. I mean these are people who are doom scrolling through. Can I give them a little bit of something worth watching every single day now. It's the same time every day. One of the most common comments I get now when I publish the shorts at 8:30pm Pacific is good night everybody. They're just waiting for it like it's a part of their nightly routine.

[Sean Cannell]

Wow.

[Pat Flynn]

This has led to that DJ playing it. This has led to me getting invited by the Detroit Lions who by the way their social media manager for TikTok is a big Pokemon fan. He connected with me. I got to fly out to Ford Field to watch the vikings game on January 6th and open a pack on the field because of this I got invited by the Major League Soccer team here in San Diego because a lot of their guys watch my videos. I just got a DM from one of the. One of the pro soccer football players from Team Argentina.

[Sean Cannell]

Geez, it's like so crazy. So shorts channel. What's what I might take away here that's fascinating is okay if it's a video podcast and it's clips from the video podcast, that's one thing. If you're actually architecting something though, you have a long form Pokemon channel that people are watching up to four hour long videos. 75% of people watch on their smart TVs. It's a particular audience. You have a vision to make something new but it's, it's different and I love the constraints and I think it's a huge viewer takeaway. It's a show so it's a repeatable format. It's a show under 60 seconds, similar sound effects, similar jingles, tapping into a proven tribe, bringing your own unique spin to everything, building it all out. But in the execution of that, you now have another goal. Play button, two billion views. Detroit Lions DJs playing the song. Showing you the power of shorts. If you do it strategically, brand partnerships.

[Pat Flynn]

Ad revenue on top of that as well, it's unlocked a new revenue stream.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah.

[Pat Flynn]

And how much does YouTube pay you.

[Sean Cannell]

For 2 billion shorts views? Total channel revenue.

[Pat Flynn]

Approximately total channel revenue. I have to check, but we're at about on YouTube ad in your YouTube Studio app.

[Sean Cannell]

Yeah, let's check.

[Pat Flynn]

I could share now. I will say a Lot of the money that I earned from this just goes right back into.

[Sean Cannell]

I'm sure it does. Well, yeah. I mean, again, and I mean people listening to Think Media podcast can handle it. It's not, it's not. I'm not even trying to say like it's all about the money.

[Pat Flynn]

And I just don't want to confuse like. Like a quick way to make money is to create shorts on YouTube.

[Sean Cannell]

Well, yeah, I mean you have hard. Yeah. RPMs are low, but you also, you have editing. You have a bigger thing going on. You reinvest in your community. But I am curious.

[Pat Flynn]

But this is all me. I don't have any editor. It's me.

[Sean Cannell]

It's only you.

[Pat Flynn]

This is.

[Sean Cannell]

And the jingles and the people you pulled the stuff in. How do you edit it?

[Pat Flynn]

ScreenFlow.

[Sean Cannell]

ScreenFlow on MacBook?

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah.

[Sean Cannell]

So you edit a daily shorts show?

[Pat Flynn]

I edit two times a week. I take about two hours to edit a week's worth.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

Of. Of shorts so I can get ahead.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay. And so you've gotten 2 billion shorts views and this is how much you've made on YouTube.

[Pat Flynn]

2 billion cross platform. Let's go. Lifetime on YouTube, we're at 750 million views. That's just on YouTube cross platform because.

[Sean Cannell]

You'Ve got TikTok things and they have creator programs as well.

[Pat Flynn]

Instagram, I think I've made 23 cents from a gift. That's it. Like there is no program.

[Sean Cannell]

Got you.

[Pat Flynn]

You have to be grandfathered into that. So still brand awareness though, you know. And now my stories are getting seen 150k times, which is ridiculous because then I can promote my event and other things. TikTok, however, I am generating revenue about 900 to $1,000 every week.

[Sean Cannell]

Every week?

[Pat Flynn]

Every week. So it's okay.

[Sean Cannell]

So the question here is, how much does YouTube pay you for 750 million views that you got on your new channel?

[Pat Flynn]

126K.

[Sean Cannell]

What? For 2. For only 750 million views?

[Pat Flynn]

Yeah.

[Sean Cannell]

That's great.

[Pat Flynn]

Some videos.

[Sean Cannell]

This one has a six figure income.

[Pat Flynn]

It is. This one video with 20 million views has almost 4k revenue. Oh, it's just popping off right now.

[Sean Cannell]

That's really good. I mean, I think I got. And it's education. I think I. Well, maybe I got 10,000. Yeah, 10. That's about. Sounds like it tracks. I got 10 million views on a Think Media podcast short. And I made $2,000. And so you're saying 20 million made about $4,000?

[Pat Flynn]

Yes. And then again, I'm taking that same Video posting it on TikTok. Now here's the funny thing I'm doing. It's less than a minute on YouTube. It's like 59 and a half seconds. I got it down so I could edit it there. I know shorts can be longer than three minutes, but still kind of wonky right now when you upload one that's more than 60 seconds. I take that 59 and a half second video on YouTube, I re export it from Screenflow with just the ending a little bit longer because it has.

[Sean Cannell]

To be over a minute to over a minute.

[Pat Flynn]

So I am using technically a different video. I just, you know, half rate the last part of it.

[Sean Cannell]

Yes.

[Pat Flynn]

You know, or whatever to extend over a minute.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay, final question. That's very fascinating and inspiring because you have given us, you know, if you create a show, you do something that works, it's repeatable, you're doing it and you're doing it by yourself. Which is so empowering because I guess I don't think, you know, think media podcast community makes many excuses because we don't really allow excuses here. Right. We just get results. We, you know, we have a rise and grind, new day, new opportunities, we're going to solve problems. But what I love you're doing here is because somebody could say a critic, be like, well, now Pat's got momentum and he has people helping him and it's like, yeah, but you didn't start there. But this thing that you're doing, you're doing entirely by yourself. Creativity works best in constraints. And so you have a show, shorts, channel, it's blowing up, you're doing it by yourself and then you're reinvesting those dollars back into your community. Very powerful. Give us a final checklist for how to determine if shorts is right for me or not. If I'm, if I want like views, leads and sales in my business. Personal trainer, real estate agent. I mean, maybe creator. That's teaching something. I teach Excel, you know, I teach some motherhood stuff. I have a D. I have a DIY channel or homesteading channel. You know, this kind of. How am I determining if I want to do shorts or long form?

[Pat Flynn]

Do it for 60 days and then assess whether or not it's worth doing.

[Sean Cannell]

More and do it on the same channel or a different channel.

[Pat Flynn]

It depends if it's the same. Like you got the same audience, just do on the same channel. I mean, in most cases that's the answer, if you can believe that they are for the same audience. I was purposefully doing this so that I could show people this can be done. I lean learned my way into this.

[Sean Cannell]

Okay.

[Pat Flynn]

And, and it's. It's working. And then it's great because it's unlocking new revenue that I can just. I give a lot of cards away. I've. I'm kind of Mr. Beasting in this space and just kind of giving away a lot of cards that people can't get access to thanks to successes like this. But, yeah, try it out.

[Sean Cannell]

That's right out.

[Pat Flynn]

Like, what's the worst that can happen? Compare that to the best that can happen.

[Sean Cannell]

Ladies and gentlemen, Pat Flynn. I want to thank you for listening to today's episode of the Think Media podcast. So much value. Pat, I want to thank you again, like, rate, share, review wherever you watch or listen. My name is Sean Cannell, your guide to building a profitable channel. And I cannot wait to connect with you in a future episode.