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- [00:00]
A
Hey, really quick. I'm hosting a free class specifically for real estate and YouTube. If you want more leads, prospects and transactions from creating simple YouTube videos, just go to real tubeclass.com to register for free. This class is live. I'm going to be there for Q and A and it's happening May 13, so go to realtubeclass.com to register and to secure your spot. All right, let's jump into today's episode, the reward loop. When you learn how to hack this, it'll change your whole YouTube career and help you be more successful. YouTube is a video game, but the video game of YouTube is rigged against beginners. TikTok would almost randomly give out a level of virality to new creators. Why? To hack their brains.
- [00:45]
B
Keep going, man.
- [00:45]
A
What are these algorithms doing to us? There are some very interesting ways to basically hack your own psychology as well as apply this information to get more views, grow your channel, and win the game of YouTube.
- [00:59]
B
Welcome back to the Think Media podcast. I'm Nathan Eswine, one of the lead coaches here at Think Media, and I'm hanging out with Sean Canel today, founder of Think Media, author of YouTube Secrets, and today's episode is actually brought to you by ytreport.com and so if you actually just want to skip the line and get the latest hacks and tips for YouTube growth this year, some power ups for your channel, if you will. You can find those at Ytreport. And the link is in the description and show notes below to download the entire report Again, that's ytreport.com Sean. I'm excited to dive into conversation. I got to know what's the story behind this episode idea?
- [01:37]
A
Yeah, so it's kind of the convergence of two things. Number one, I got a Nintendo Switch 2. And number two, our community was posting some of their biggest challenges on the community tab about struggling to stay consistent and, and essentially struggling to win the game of YouTube, especially if you're starting. And so I actually realized that YouTube is a video game, but the video game of YouTube is rigged against beginners. And I will explain that. I mean, once you're more established, basically this, you're getting more of a feedback loop. The game, the playing. YouTube is a lot more fun when you're going viral or you're getting checks from YouTube where money's coming in and, you know, you think about any video game too early on, you're actually getting money, you're getting gold coins, you're expanding your village, et cetera. But the early days of YouTube, it's like the worst game ever. You feel like you're getting punched in the face. No. You spent seven hours editing a video. You only get seven views. Like, so there are some very interesting ways to basically hack your own psychology as well as apply this information to get more views, grow your channel, and win the game of YouTube. So the quick backstory, though, was over the holidays, I was shopping around for a gaming system. And, you know, I'm telling it, I'm telling myself that it's for my boys, who are three and five, of course, but I'm also like, which one do I want? You know? Now, honestly, if I was going to go purely the game system for me, I would have got a PS5. But because it was for them as well, I got a switch to, you know, because Mario, everything else. So I got a switch to. But one of the things I found out was I almost would stick with no games.
- [03:12]
B
Hmm.
- [03:13]
A
And I was like, why am I not sticking with some games and sticking with others? And I started to talk to ChatGPT about it, okay. And it taught me about this concept called the reward loop, the dopamine reward loop. And everybody listening to this needs to listen to the end, because when you learn how to hack this, it'll Change your whole YouTube career and help you be more successful. So we'll break this down in just a second. But ultimately I eventually found a game. It's called Metroid Dread. It's actually a Switch 1 game. And. And I realized I didn't know at first why I like the game so much, but then chatgpt told me why and it said, oh, the reward loop of that game is like perfect. You start it, you're playing quick. You're limited in the beginning, but you're having some fun. But then quickly you beat an easy boss and then your gun is upgraded. You then progress a little bit more, and then you have a power up, you progress a little bit more. And even if you get lost in exploration, there's game design that keeps pushing you forward. There's game design so you don't get stuck for too long. Because maybe we could relate if we've ever tried a game or tried something. If we don't get a reward from that thing fast enough, what do we do? We quit.
- [04:20]
B
Yes. We're out.
- [04:21]
A
So I realized this game, like perfectly hacked my own brain chemistry. And yet even since that time, I've been, like, trying to find other games and. And they didn't at least fit that reward loop for me. So, Nathan, as I Went deeper into this concept, I realized that game designers have spent millions of dollars figuring out what will keep people engaged. It's actually a scientific concept called the reward loop, which is action, feedback, reward, repeat, take an action, get some feedback, get a reward, repeat the process. Okay, so when the, when the loop is tight, you stay hooked, but if it's broken, you quit. So as we dive into this and we get into how to hack the loop in the creator's cheat code, I then started to study YouTube itself and realized YouTube's loop is broken because creators are out here, they're taking action, getting no feedback. Yeah, you post a video, why did I only get 11 views? I have no likes, no comments. Or you put a ton of effort and action into it, but you don't get a lot of feedback. Listeners maybe can relate to that. And so the rewards are not even there. And so then why would you want to repeat the process? Or the question is, how long are you going to stick with this game before you quit? Now what's interesting is they try with shorts and TikTok has figured this out as well. TikTok would almost randomly give out a level of virality to new creators. Why? Oh yeah, to, to hack their brain.
- [05:50]
B
Keep going.
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A
Yeah, because like man, I want to chase that place to be.
- [05:54]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [05:54]
A
And so that's interesting from like, man, what are these algorithms doing to us? But it just ha. We need to understand this about our own self motivation and things like that. So again, you spend hours making a video, you hit publish, you got silence. And so the channels that break through, this is the big key, is the channels that break through are basically the ones who can figure out the discipline to not quit when the reward loop sucks.
- [06:19]
B
So number one is to actually change what you're measuring, we need to stop measuring wins victories by views and start measuring them by actions. So this, this is a game changer. Instead of saying, did this video get views? It's actually like, did I publish? Did I improve my hook? Shoot, did I, did I actually design the thumbnail that I said I was going to do? It's like it's inputs, right, Versus outputs versus the thing that we all want. So really it's a better measurement to say, did I just execute my plan this week? Did I press record? Did I press upload? And now if we can re flip what we're measuring right at the end of the week, right? This is the idea. I'm rewiring my behavior. I'm starting to focus on the dopamine coming from a different scoreboard.
- [07:06]
A
Yes. And this is where the phrase count uploads, not views at the start is because if you're counting views, you're super discouraged by the game and why would you keep playing? But if you flip it and really just rewire your thinking, you count uploads. And so this might be some scripting self talk. Like, like, today was a good day. I published a video that's real and we all fall into the trap. Today sucked. My most recent upload was 10 out of 10 even, and I barely get views anyways. And it was the worst of the videos that I don't even think are good.
- [07:36]
B
Yeah.
- [07:37]
A
So it's like, no, you want to start by measuring. And then when you say measuring actions, you know, this could include uploads, this could include studying. This could include the actions you take towards your goal.
- [07:50]
B
Number two is building a small improvement into every single video. So I love this. This is the idea of actually zooming way in for a second and because the whole journey of YouTube can feel overwhelming, but actually dropping right into every upload. A single upload needs its own goal. And this is where the whole concept that we've, I mean, preached for so long is 1% better. Right in this video. What is the goal that I'm shooting for? What's the level up? I'm after the power up, Better lighting. Okay, all right, what do I need to work on now? Stronger opening. Okay. I really want to work on a cleaner edit. I want to work on what could I do or say or show to have a higher retention than last time. I'm catching on here, like really rigging the YouTube experience into level ups, wins, stacking them. Because now every video becomes its own level and it becomes a level that you can beat. If we're changing the metrics.
- [08:43]
A
Yeah, 100%. And so again, this would also still be measuring the actions you could take. And if you think about game dynamics, dynamics, you know, when you're a newbie, you hit record on your camera and it might look like garbage.
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B
Yes.
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A
But if it's good enough, listen, you pressed record, your phone, audio, phone, video, whatever, you publish a video, that's a win. But if you were to go down, let's say, the lighting path, and you're trying to figure out how to get your skin tones, the lighting looking right, the video looking right. Early days, that's very difficult. So you're studying, then you then maybe order some lights on Amazon. You set them up, you're like, why does my video not look like other people's. Yeah, maybe. Early days. You do have a nicer camera, but you haven't figured out the white balance thing. If you haven't figured out white balance on a nicer camera, you're either blue or you're orange, but you're not human or the video looks terrible. Why does this person. So even as you look at different things that you could challenge yourself to do. I'm trying to get that look, I'm trying to get that sound. I use the same mic as Sean and Nathan, but their video sounds a lot crispier. So what am I trying to solve this week? And you're leveling up your skills, your progress, your knowledge. And this actually is very much tied to having, I think, positive self talk.
- [09:59]
B
Agreed.
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A
And that positive self talk is kind of like, yeah, I mean, this video's not getting a lot of external appreciation, but dang, that looks good, man. I finally got there. It took me about four weeks, but, like, the shot's looking good, you know, and pride in your craft, grace for your journey, but the improvement of your craft over time. And what are we looking for? We did not get some external validation. We did not beat some mega boss, go viral and get some accolades. You might be the only person cheering yourself on, but you're now like, shoot, I'm getting dopamine for that.
- [10:31]
B
So number three is shortening your own feedback loop. So the idea here is not to just be waiting. And actually, maybe there's a step before this is even knowing what to look at. Like, what. What sort of feedback loop do I need as someone who's trying to do YouTube. But don't wait for the algorithm to tell you how you did this is part of that reframing, right? Like, man, watch your own video critically. Share it with someone, share it with people, and actually read every comment. As you are growing on YouTube and you can create community tab posts like, poll your audience. Just get faster at learning, get faster at improving. The whole idea here is you don't have to wait to decide how you're going to measure that video that you just did. It can happen in the moment.
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A
Right.
- [11:15]
B
And in the feedback loop here, too. I'm thinking through, it's not just the video that you posted and then waiting for what comes after it. It's also like, even just the preparation going into that video that you're filming, right? Like, man, okay, already that last one that I did, as I'm planning for this, man, I did that really well. And now I'm going to go here Sean, actually just real talk. I just, I just did this. We were filming some, some solo stuff and, and just trying something new. Got like a little iPad, we're drawing stuff. It's like frameworks. It's different. It was new. But as I was looking back, I was like, you know what, sure, I'd love for this video to just do so well, but I was just like, I'm so actually grateful for the chance to just get to try something new. I was like, way to go, man. You know, like you could have not tried perspective. Like this just happened this week. And so it's like that's actually what it was like, you know what, no matter what, like, I'm, I'm proud for the, I'm proud of the attempt, you know, I mean, good. That's what was good.
- [12:03]
A
And then we can analyze that. Now we are blessed to have more views so we actually will get real feedback. It'll perform or not. Yes, people will comment about it or not. But you want to shorten the feedback loop. And this is why the video game of YouTube is rigged against creators. I'm not saying in some malicious way when you start, you're not getting feedback.
- [12:21]
B
Yes.
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A
The feedback you are getting is like you're, you're not even getting any impressions because the little you get, clearly you're not getting click through rate or watch time or whatever. But I think the problem is, is that most people listening to this are craving someone to like look at their work and give them some feedback.
- [12:39]
B
Yes.
- [12:40]
A
The. You said read every comment, but the person that says, what if I'm not. If I'm getting 0 comments and 0 comments is usually a pretty long season.
- [12:48]
B
Yes.
- [12:48]
A
Because the math on comments is pretty small. Like MKBH is mkbhd one of the biggest tech creators. They said his, his comments have actually gone down over 30% in the last seven years. That's a lot. He gets millions of comments and so 30% is like millions less. But obviously he's still getting outrageous amounts. Well, easy for him to get feedback. What if you're just starting? And so, you know, obviously we mentioned things like our coaching, but it really is that valuable because you're not alone and feedback is priceless. If you can shorten the learning curve from people who know what they're talking about, who understand YouTube. That's why you can basically skip the line of the video game. Yes to you're fixing all these things you never saw and you're fixing these things before the YouTube algorithm even has a chance to just shut you down and keep you boxed in.
- [13:38]
B
Yes.
- [13:39]
A
And so you could get feedback from somewhere else. And if you want, if you want to inquire about that, we have viralvideocoach.com, we have a group coaching program. We have a one on one coaching program. And it's, you know, it's flexible, it's optional. You could talk with our team about details and there's, it's absolutely free to schedule a call and if it doesn't work out, no big deal. Viral Video Coach.com is where you can check that out. But let me encourage listeners. If it's not us, hook up with somebody.
- [14:06]
B
Somebody. Oh, my goodness.
- [14:07]
A
You know, it's famous. Mr. Beast was famous for the early days, meeting with a couple other creators on Skype for a thousand days in a row, just talking about videos to look at each other's content. What was going on? Why did it die? That's feedback. That's talking about it. You could find one friend, you could join different groups. If you don't want to do group coaching, you could get it to somebody that has. We have this as well, like a circle group where you could post your thumbnails and different things like that. Get feedback.
- [14:34]
B
Yes.
- [14:35]
A
Because when you can't get it from the actual game itself of YouTube in the early days, you can get it from what's cool, real humans. I think that's the key. Get feedback from real humans.
- [14:46]
B
Yes.
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A
It'll shorten the, the path to winning the game of YouTube.
- [14:52]
B
Number four. Here is make your progress visible. So this idea, right, is I think so underutilized. Sean. This is just like simple stuff, but we don't think about it. Tracking uploads, tracking retention trends. But even more, you know, practical than that, screenshotting stuff, saving things. Sean, for the longest time I actually had, you know, a couple like pictures or notes like in front of me while I was filming just to remind me of why what I'm doing matters. And I understand when you're at the beginning again, the whole point is you don't have the feedback. Like there's nothing really happening. But what are things that you can put in front of you or have nearby or reference even before you start filming that. Talk about a psychology hack, right? Like, I could feel like not filming that day, but I could link up with one of my avengers. I could send a text that I'm just not feeling it. If you have that, if you don't, then it's like, who have you helped? What have you done? Trying to remind yourself of why this matters. So that's one way of tracking progress. But then it's even like across videos. Just full disclosure, Something I'm starting to do now, like as I'm creating content for the Think Media channel, is actually just making a quick little spreadsheet. It's nothing crazy, but it's just the video that went out and there's just two questions. What did I love? And what did I learn? And it's purely just, hey, what did I enjoy? What was there to celebrate about that thing? You know? And then what did I learn? If I would do this again, what would I do differently? How could I improve performance? How could I whatever. And I think that just having a simple tracker like that, you know, can. Can help us make the progress so visible. And I even think too, Sean, before, I'd love to hear what you think about this, but when a lot of people get into their analytics, let's say you make it your past 20 videos or even just a little bit before, and you can get in your YouTube studio and there's actually stuff there.
- [16:36]
A
Right.
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B
That you can really measure. I think a lot of us zoom in so much on like a day or a week or one video. And so a big thing that's helped me with this, which making progress visible, is anytime I'm going into an analytics session, I always want to zoom back out. Right. Because the overall what you're seeing in the moment, if you're getting so specific, can look bad or can look really, really good. But by zooming out and seeing the overall trend. Oh, actually here's the date when I'm looking today. And here's when I started. Oh, and I am further along than I thought. And so I think it's like making a ritual, doing this more often.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah.
- [17:10]
B
To see your progress and actually try to evaluate it.
- [17:14]
A
Listen, you're exactly right. And science says your brain needs to see movement or it will assume there is none. See, you'll lose your brain if you actually don't do this. So you're like, why is motivation so low? Why'd I fall off? Why can't I be consistent? On YouTube, your brain needs to see movement.
- [17:30]
B
The fifth and final part of this creator's cheat code, though, is learning how to shift your identity before the results arrive. And this is fascinating stuff. You know, we're kind of like talking about like, you know, the self help jocko. Good reframing refrain. But this stuff is legit. This stuff is real. And there's something that changes in your. Even in your Posture and how you stand by. Instead of saying, I'm trying YouTube, to start saying, I'm a creator who shows up. And this is actually all over the place in atomic habits. Right. James Clear was all about this. That's. That's actually what he was saying about habit change is it's an identity thing. So you go from saying, like, yeah, you know, I'm trying. I'm trying to get in shape.
- [18:11]
A
Right.
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B
Versus I. I am a fit father.
- [18:15]
A
Yes.
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B
Whoa. You know what I mean? There's like. And now it's fun because you get to experiment with, like, almost like, some people haven't even said that. I'm actually, you know. If you're starting YouTube, how long has it taken you to actually identify as a creator? Because good news is, good news is, and here's something to celebrate and here's, like, a progress thing to do and a dinner to go have and schedule. If you posted a video, you just crossed over. You just crossed over. You are a creator. You created. You put something out there. And you should be saying from your first upload, I'm a creator now. You know, so it's interesting to think about, like, you know, people who ask about what you do and just your phrasing could be so different, you know, like, how's the YouTube thing going? Well, it's good. I'm, like, trying to get my channel going. How's the YouTube thing going? Oh, it's good. Like, I'm uploading videos, like, just that reframing of how you are. And this is powerful because the reward stops being views and it starts being keeping your word to yourself. And that is a loop.
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A
Right.
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B
That will sustain you all the way through the creator journey.
- [19:15]
A
Yeah. I want to encourage listeners to, like, lock in for this part because some of this stuff gets a little bit weird. We're talking about identity, and people want tactics in a title. But let's really drill down on this. Shift your identity before the results arrive. You already mentioned it. The data backs it up. Our identity is actually, like, kind of running the whole show. And so to illustrate, there's actually a famous study of people who were trying to quit smoking. And they asked two groups the same question. They said, do you want a cigarette? So the one group, they told them the answer to say, like, ahead of time. And so one group said, no, thanks. I'm trying to quit.
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B
Ooh, there it is.
- [19:51]
A
The second group said, no, thanks, I'm not a smoker.
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B
Wow.
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A
And the people who said, I'm not a smoker were dramatically More likely to actually quit. Like, the stats were crazy because they weren't fighting their own self image every single day. So you're fighting. No, thanks. I'm trying to quit. My self image is. Quitting is so hard. I'm trying to quit. Will I ever be able to quit?
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B
And you're still identifying as a smoker.
- [20:17]
A
Yeah, I'm a smoker that's trying to smoke.
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B
Trying, yeah.
- [20:20]
A
And so then the other group, they're like, no, thanks, I'm not a smoker. Now shift your identity before the results arrive. And this will mess with some people because I want to be authentic and I want to be whatever. Okay. The other option, though, is to be intentional about the kinds of habits or routines or person you want to be. Like you mentioned, if you have never posted a video, as soon as you post the first video, you went from being just a consumer to being a creator on YouTube. That's an action you took to shift your identity. And so being intentional about doing that is a big way. And so instead of saying, I'm trying to make this thing work on YouTube, it's an uphill battle, you shift to like, I'm a creator who shows up. Doesn't say, I'm a creator who's going viral.
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B
No.
- [21:00]
A
But I'm a creator who shows up, and I keep showing up. And you. The final thing you mentioned there, too, was like, you want to be somebody who keeps your word to yourself. And there actually is, like, cognitive dissonance that'll grow when we keep actually missing our own upload time, which can sometimes be to our idea. I mean, I just never follow through. I just never. Some of it is clicking in. You know, is it chicken or egg? Is it identity? Or action? Or action or identity. I think just listening to this conversation can help you really think, okay, identity is at the core of hacking the video game of YouTube. And so to make this practical, I think you could plan a few things on paper here. Like, what would the ideal identity be for being the type of person who's consistent on YouTube and that does hard things and that perseveres when it's hard, and that continues to persevere when you're not getting the views and not getting the results. You're a creator who made a decision to start something that. And again, if you're at year three and you followed everything we've taught and you've literally done every single best practice, and you've, You've. You've really gave this thing a shot, and I don't even mean you've been posted for three years. I mean you've like really continued to improve and you've actually gotten other people's eyes and you've gotten feedback. There could be a time where you're like, I should throw in the towel. It just, it's just not working. But let's start, let's finish where we began. We began with the real math that the majority of the YouTube competition that's out there, their channels are ghost towns and 80% of creators quit before they ever publish their 20th video. So these are five, this is the creator cheat codes. Because if you tap into these five things and start to operate differently then you could start getting more results. The bottom line is we don't want you to give up on the video game because the reward loop is not tight enough. The bottom line is we don't want you to throw in the towel because you're just like, this kind of sucks. Yeah, it does. We get it.
- [22:57]
B
That's right.
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A
That's the season that you're in. The first two seasons suck.
- [23:00]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [23:02]
A
Of the show. To take it back to earlier like the first two seasons. Listen though, but if you stick around, oh man. And I'm not saying season three is YouTube millionaire, but I'm saying it's, it's once we've and, and, and a lot of listeners here, they're like, yeah, no, I have like I did get a one out of 10. Oh, there is that video I posted three months ago. It's still getting views. Oh, there is that video. I got my first affiliate sale. Those become then now you're actually playing the game. You're like, shoot, this isn't play money on Farmville. This is only $3. But that's three real USD dollars.
- [23:33]
B
Yes.
- [23:33]
A
From an affiliate program. Okay, there's the reward. Hack these and get there and continue doing these to get to the next stage and the next stage and the next stage. And you know, speaking about, I guess it's not best practice to give two call to actions, but I want to because speaking of stages and actually the core of our whole five stages of YouTube is an identity conversation.
- [23:53]
B
That's right.
- [23:54]
A
We actually do have a free quiz people can take. MyCreatorQuiz.com, you might be listening to this and know your stage. But here's the power. There's resources on the other side of the three minute quiz that'll help you. Four don't be doing in, in World of Warcraft. You're not going to go Take on a boss who's a hundred times stronger than you're ready for you and your crew. Like, you're. You're playing the bosses that you're leveled up for at the right level. The same is true about YouTube. You're playing the level of YouTube based on where you're at. That quiz will help you do it with some free resources. That's mycreatorquiz.com and then as far as maybe some advanced individuals have made it this far or anybody. We have this report that we built out of the biggest shifts on YouTube right now. Some of the biggest changes. I think 15 of them and then 12 shifts. It sounds like a lot. It's not a. It's not lightweight. But if you want, if you ever subscribe to, like that physical magazine that helped you beat video games, Game Pro or things like that, or you bought the strategy guide for early. Any games. I'm just dating myself right now. Yo, it's a hack. This. YTReport.com will give you some advanced tactics because again, I know this was a lot of psychology and a lot of stuff about beginners and getting started and getting through that slump, but if you want to scale your growth, growth, because YouTube is a video game, you want to win. Ytreport.com study it, implement it. That's a free resource for you as well. So we'll link all of that up in the show. Notes. Nathan, I'll kick it to you for the final words, 100%.
- [25:25]
B
And I actually want to say, Sean, like, kind of like how I said at the beginning, if only there was a supply drop for YouTube. That was it.
- [25:31]
A
There is a supply drop.
- [25:32]
B
There's two right there. Which one? Maybe both. You're going to take both. Mycreatorquiz.com, yt report. This podcast hopefully was a supply drop. Stay tuned. Subscribe, stay close. This is the Think Media podcast. I'm Nathan Eswine and I can't wait to connect with you in a future episode.