← The Thyroid (and Hormone) Fixer Podcast: Thyropause, Menopause, Metabolism and How to Fix It
The Thyroid (and Hormone) Fixer Podcast: Thyropause, Menopause, Metabolism and How to Fix It
544. Estrogen and Cancer: What Every Woman Should Know About Hormones and Detoxification
00:52:56
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- [00:00]
Dr. Amy
Welcome to the Thyroid Fixer podcast, where I'm all about helping you lose that stubborn weight that won't come off no.
- [00:07]
Carrie Jones
Matter what you do. Get off your couch at 2pm and.
- [00:11]
Dr. Amy
Get through your day with energy and stop counting the hairs that come out of your head. I'm your host, Dr. Amy, and I'm here to help you get optimized with your thyroid and your hormones. It's all part of living our mantra. Better thyroid, better hormones equals a better life.
- [00:30]
Carrie Jones
So let's get you back to being.
- [00:32]
Dr. Amy
Being the badass human that you're meant to be. Let's approach it from a thyroid and hormone optimization standpoint. Between myself and my guests, you will be loaded down with information to take control of your health and get back to being you. So let's get started. The struggle is real when it comes to losing weight. Listen, I know because I've been there. You're trying all the things. You're doing the diet, you're tracking your macros, you're getting to the gym, you're going to the Pilates, you're doing all the things, but it's not working. It's not working.
- [01:09]
Carrie Jones
And this is independent of a thyroid problem. Maybe you have a thyroid problem.
- [01:13]
Dr. Amy
Maybe you have low hormones, or maybe you don't, and you're just like, I just have a really crappy metabolism that I am putting on weight or I.
- [01:24]
Carrie Jones
Can'T lose weight no matter what I do. Then you need some help.
- [01:27]
Dr. Amy
But what you don't need is a stimulant fat burner of the old days where you literally thought you were having a heart attack.
- [01:34]
Carrie Jones
You need something that is actually going.
- [01:37]
Dr. Amy
To work to increase your metabolism without jacking up your heart rate.
- [01:43]
Carrie Jones
Enter Thyroid Fixer. Yes, I know it's called Thyroid Fixer.
- [01:48]
Dr. Amy
But I named it after myself and the brand because it's my baby, it's my child.
- [01:52]
Carrie Jones
And it's a product that I have.
- [01:54]
Dr. Amy
Been studying for 15 years and using it on patients for 15 years before I brought it to you. Thyroid fixer contains T2.
- [02:04]
Carrie Jones
And what this does, I call it.
- [02:06]
Dr. Amy
The forgotten thyroid hormone. No, there's no tests for T2, but your body does produce T2 in small amounts. T2 will increase your basal metabolic rate, literally the amount of fat that you're burning at rest. It's also browning white adipose tissue. So this is why you jump into cold plunges. Or maybe you're like, I don't want to jump in a cold plunge to brown your white adipose tissue. That helps with insulin. Resistance, it helps with metabolism, it helps with inflammation, helps with overall health. So that's a good thing as well. And here's the other thing with T2, it's not going to affect your thyroid.
- [02:38]
Carrie Jones
So many of you know, if you take T3, if we give you T3, or if you abuse T3 when you're not supposed to, it will have a.
- [02:46]
Dr. Amy
Feedback loop, a negative feedback loop on your thyroid, and you're going to either look like you're hyperthyroid or you're going to shut down your own Thyroid Production. T2 doesn't do that. It's working at the cell level to just simply increase your metabolism. That's a win all the way around because now you're going to burn fat, now you're going to lose those extra LBs, and that's ultimately what we want.
- [03:11]
Carrie Jones
It also bonus, helps with ATP production.
- [03:16]
Dr. Amy
At the mitochondrial level. This means steady energy through the day. This no highs, no lows, no caffeinated red bull spikes, just really nice steady energy through the day to keep you going. So you want to add in thyroid fixer and just literally watch your body change over the next couple months.
- [03:38]
Carrie Jones
Because, listen, I mean, it's, it's time.
- [03:39]
Dr. Amy
Well, it, it's time all year long. I mean, there's no good time of.
- [03:43]
Carrie Jones
Year to lose body fat.
- [03:44]
Dr. Amy
We want to be in shape, we want to look, feel and perform our best. Add in thyroid fixer and your body will absolutely thank you and then you'll come back and you'll thank me. Are you absolutely frustrated with working with doctors that keep telling you that you're normal and everything is fine, or are you frustrated with going the functional medicine or integrative medicine route and you're still not getting optimized? Maybe because they're focusing on other things other than the thyroid and hormones, or they're not a thyroid and hormone expert. Listen, just because you go to a functional medicine practitioner, it does not mean they know what they're doing with your thyroid and with your hormones. They might tell you they do, but the reality is, if you claim to be good at everything, you're really good at nothing. That is why we focus on thyroid and hormones now. Yes. What else is involved in thyroid and hormones? You got insulin, you got your adrenals, you got cortisol. Of course the gut is important. Of course it is nutrient deficiencies, all the things. But we look at all of that and the bottom line is you could do all the gut healing protocols, detoxes, adrenal fairy dust, sprinkling that you want to do. And if your thyroid is in the toilet, if you're not being treated properly, if your free T3 is low, if your reverse T3 is high, if your hormones are in the tank, then it doesn't matter. You're going to be wasting your time, you're going to be wasting money, you're going to be throwing a bunch of supplements at it, just getting more and more frustrated and getting supplement fatig week. You need to work with people that will hold your hand, actually care about you, ask you how you're feeling, not have a cap on any kind of dosing. Oh, that drives me crazy too. All those docs out there that say, well you can't go above XYZ dose of T3. That is complete BS. Do not listen to them. Or doctors that tell you that hormones cause cancer. No, no, do not listen. We can get you to Optimization Land where you feel amazing, where you're not gaining weight, looking sideways at a brownie, where you have consistent energy through the day, your hair is not falling out, and yes, you actually poop and detox every single day. That is a win. So you're going to want to book a call with my team and this is totally free. And this is where we go over, hey, what have you tried? What has worked, what hasn't worked? Where are you at on the frustration spectrum? And here's how we can help. And we are going to tailor a program for you and your needs to get you to Optimization Land. Because I always talk about it. It's a beautiful place to live and I invite you all to join me there. Because in Optimization Land you are confident and strong. You want to go out, your brain works, you have energy, you have motivation and you feel so good every time you get dressed. Oh, and you have a libido.
- [06:41]
Carrie Jones
It's a beautiful place to live.
- [06:42]
Dr. Amy
So I'm going to invite you to click the link below. We always put it in the show notes how to work with us. So you're going to book a free call, no obligation. We're just going to go over everything with you and at least you'll have some guidelines and know what your next steps should be. If you really want to get optimized. We got you. We've been doing this long enough. You're not a tough case, I always say that. But it is time to put you first. Because like I say, we only have so much time on this planet. Let's live it in Optimization Land because you deserve to be the badass human that you're meant to be. So I look forward to seeing you in one of our programs so we can help you level up and bring you into optimization land.
- [07:28]
Carrie Jones
Oh, my goodness. It's been a long time in the making. I finally have Carrie Jones on the show. You know, we got a chance to hang out at a farm in December of last year. And I mean, your vibe, your personality, I mean, we just totally click. So I know this is going to be an incredible conversation. And I've been on your podcast too, which that was an incredible conversation. So I want to kind of extend this, really pick your brain and just.
- [07:53]
Dr. Amy
Give my audience your knowledge.
- [07:55]
Carrie Jones
Because like I was saying off air, Carrie, you know so much. You've been in this space for so long dealing with hormones, dealing with perimenopause, dealing with all kinds of different testing procedures and seeing what works, what doesn't. So to finally have you on the show, to unpack your brain for my audience is an absolute blessing. So thank you for being here.
- [08:15]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Oh my gosh, Amy, thanks for having me. I am so excited. Well, first of all, it was an honor to have you on my podcast. So thrilled to be here to talk about, well, of course, all things hormones detox over 40. Like, bring it on.
- [08:29]
Carrie Jones
Rant, rant. Okay, so we have to start with estrogen detoxification. It's a huge question in my audience's mind. And just like we talked about on your show and my audience already knows, my experience with uterine cancer has really enlightened me to the importance of further testing. And again, we'll start actually with this topic. I have a question for you regarding hormones. This is not to scare women away from using hormones, but to actually help you be aware that you can use hormones even if you don't detox properly or you have some things on your Dutch or in your genetics that impair that, that process. You don't have to say no to hormones and suffer a miserable life through perimenopause and menopause. I want to unpack how to do things properly and in the process actually pick Carrie's brain and implement a couple of her knowledge based things for myself, since I don't detox estrogen very well either. So on that question, Carrie, I want to kick off by, you know, when you see a woman and we'll get into what is estrogen detoxification, how do you know? How do you, how do you know how you do? But when you see a woman, let's say not, not methylating, not detoxing her estrogen properly Are you going to tell her? You know what, maybe you need to back off on that estrogen or change your hormones or avoid it completely?
- [09:51]
Dr. Carrie Jones
No, definitely not. And what's even more fascinating than that is like the same pathways that detox estrogen also detox, like environmental toxicants. You know, it's, they're not sole pathways for estrogen. So the estrogen piece is incredibly important. And what's even better is we can absolutely optimize it a lot of times through diet and lifestyle, maybe a dash of supplementation, but also know there are highways for other things as well. So if we open up these pathways and just improve them, you're going to improve detox for everything, not just estrogen.
- [10:23]
Carrie Jones
Okay, beautiful. Thank you for that. We just want to start off, start clarifying. Yeah, we don't want women throwing their hormones in the trash like they did, you know, when whi study came out. Okay, estrogen detoxification, what is it? Why is it important?
- [10:38]
Dr. Carrie Jones
I once did a poll on my social media and I was like, how long do you think estrogen lives in the, in the body? And a lot of women wrote, oh, forever. Like it just recirculates and recirculates. It does not. Estrogen has an, and has an exit plan. It needs to get broken down into something that we call water soluble. Because the hormone estrogen, the estrogens are fat soluble, so they can cruise around your bloodstream and out of tissues that can cruise in and out of your cells very easily. But in order to get rid of them, if you're going to poop them out or pee them out, they have to be water soluble. So detoxification is a two, if not three step process to get them from fat soluble to safe and water soluble and out of the body. Certain pathways of that are, let's say, better than others, less naughty than others. So we're trying to optimize the good stuff and minimize the naughty stuff to get estrogen and really all your hormones out. But we'll focus on estrogen.
- [11:31]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so a woman, let's say take. We're going to talk about the perimenopause menopause cohort that is taking exogenous estrogen in the form of a patch, pellets, cream, however they're taking it, what is that process that it goes through in the body? Just exactly what you just described.
- [11:50]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yeah, the estrogen that you make in your body from your ovaries or elsewhere or the hormones you, the estrogen hormone you take is part of your therapy as long as it looks just like your own. As long as you're on bioidentical, it's the exact same pathway. And here's the crazy part, it's the exact same pathways for men as well. So sometimes women listen to this and go, what about my partner? What about my brother? What about my best friend? About my husband? I'm like, it's the same pathways. So if he's struggling with estrogen, also it's the same pathways, which is great to help estrogen get out. But yes, if it's bioidentical estrogen therapy you're on, this whole thing applies.
- [12:25]
Carrie Jones
So I wanted to ask that because, you know, in conventional medicine, it's almost like they treat the bioidentical exogenous estrogen as something totally different than what we actually make in our body, as if we should be looking at it differently, as if it processes differently inside of us, as if that exogenous estrogen comes in and starts wreaking havoc as opposed to the estrogen that we naturally produce.
- [12:50]
Dr. Carrie Jones
And the term bioidentical, interestingly enough, is not a scientific term, it's more of a marketing term. But I think it's one of the greatest, easy to understand descriptions for women. Like, you want a hormone that looks verbatim, you know, like the hormone in your body. That's so that's why we call it bioidentical. Sometimes I see it as body identical, but because interestingly of that women's health initiative that you just mentioned, and hormones in general got the stigma of like, they cause cancer, they stopped all hormone production prescription. Except for the birth control pill. Nobody seemed to have a problem with the birth control pill. And recently I read an article that was going, that was a review article looking at the top ways to reduce hot flashes in women. And it was ethanol estradiol, which is synthetic with drospirenone. And I was like, like the birth control pill? Like, yes, like what? Did you even look at the patches? Did you even look at the gel? Did you even look at estradiol? What's already in our body? And it's just shocking to me when men get testosterone, no problem generally, no questions asked, sometimes, some labs, not always, not like we would maybe do. And yet a woman's like my candidate for estrogen and it becomes this whole weird blown up thing. And God forbid they say the word bioidentical, then like, you are clearly weird. The other thing I do want to clarify with bioidentical, it doesn't mean compounded, not always.
- [14:13]
Carrie Jones
Right?
- [14:13]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Right. Like I have actually seen OBGYN sit on stage and go, oh, no, I don't prescribe bioidentical because I don't believe in compounding, my girl. What? The patch you have on your lower hip, what do you think that is? It's estradiol. The mist that you spray on your arm, the gel, even the estradiol, you know, 1 milligram tab is bioidentical. Is that compounded? You can get it compounded, but it is totally FDA approved, available at a normal pharmacy right now.
- [14:41]
Carrie Jones
And thank you for clarifying so much because, and that, that does apply to thyroid as well. People. So, yeah, a lot of people think, yeah, that's a great clarification. Okay, so estrogen. Now, with my history or my recent history of estrogen positive uterine cancer that was taken out, I'm totally clear. I mean, yes, I have circulating tumor cells like we all do, and like anybody does that's had a cancer removed, but in my state right now, they took out the container that contained the estrogen positive cancerous cells in it. Now, naturally, my oncologist who says, you know, this was estrogen positive, so you might want to rethink your hormone therapy afterwards and maybe go off of that estrogen. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You took out the container that was estrogen positive? I realized I still have breasts and that those have estrogen receptors on it as well. But this is the fear that's being put into women, especially after any kind of cancer. And God forbid a woman have breast cancer, my God, good luck getting estrogen then. But this is the fear that we put into women that because that cancer was estrogen positive, we can't have estrogen. And when I sit back and I think I'm like, wait a minute. And I know this has been said out loud, if estrogen caused cancer, let's say breast cancer. If estrogen caused breast cancer or uterine cancer, we would see a bunch of 16 and 17 year olds with, with breast cancer and uterine cancer because they have more estrogen in their body than what I was putting into my body that was deficient in estrogen, and I.
- [16:18]
Dr. Amy
Was just trying to replace it.
- [16:20]
Carrie Jones
So on that topic, there's so many questions around it, but yeah, my God, where do we start on that topic? I mean, my plan is, and I, and I am right now on estrogen therapy. I just need to make sure that it's not building up unnecessarily and that it's not going down Unwanted pathways. So big overarching question is, what do we need to think about if a woman, let's say, is scared of cancer, has cancer in her family or is post any kind of breast cancer, uterine cancer, hormone driven cancer or hormonal cancer? Once a hormone driven hormonal type of cancer, reproductive cancer, and then I want to break down the metabolites that estrogen goes into.
- [17:05]
Dr. Carrie Jones
One of the first things I always tell women is that cancer is not single handedly one thing. Not, not in this case. There are some cancers, but in this case cancer is complicated. I am not an oncologist. Every oncologist I talk to though is like, whoa, is it multifaceted? When, when something goes wrong in the body, when a gene, when an enzyme gets made wrong, when a variant is corrected incorrectly, if you get exposure to something, you know, God forbid, some sort of toxicant chemical, you have a genetic predisposition, you know, like it's what was the straw that broke the camel's back that all of a sudden a cell runs rampant and, and cancer occurs. It's a lot more complicated than like A plus B equals C. So when women are like, well, estrogen causes cancer, I'm like, not single handedly it doesn't, no. And in fact there's been some really great research around estrogen actually lowering estrogen by itself, actually lowering the risk for like breast cancer as an example. So in that Women's Health Initiative, the part that made the news was the combination of a synthetic estrogen and a synthetic progestin, which is a fake progesterone. When they were put together, those women had a slight increased risk of breast cancer. Slight. Still, the media ran with it. What wasn't discussed was the other part of the study that they continued, which was the estrogen only part. And the reason it was estrogen only, so no progesterone, no progestin, nothing was because those women had had their uterus removed, they'd had a hysterectomy, so they didn't need a progesterone or progestin or anything. So they were the estrogen only part and they actually didn't have an increased risk of breast cancer. And they let that part continue. Even with all the news freaking out and everybody stopping hormones. They continued that part for a long while and at the end still concluded like, yeah, these women, without only doing estrogen don't have an increased risk. Very recently this year, earlier this year, 2025, a study came out looking at a large number of women and the media headlines Again were like hrt, you know, estrogen causes breast cancer. And they completely read it like they read the whi. It was, it was this. The estrogen plus the progestin had a slight, slight increased risk of breast cancer over women who had never done hormones. But guess what? Women who've never done hormones unfortunately can still develop cancer. Right, Right. We all know somebody who said I've never done hormones. I've never even been on the birth control pill. Yeah. Unfortunately, number one risk, especially for breast cancer is being a woman. And the same stud said that the women who were just on an estrogen, so no uterus, so no progestin or progesterone, they actually had, they had a lower, their percentage risk of breast cancer was lower than the never users, which is not uncommon. We, we've seen this a few times in studies. Now I'm not saying this. I will support whatever decision somebody wants to make. Go on hormones, don't go on hormones. Don't feel like you're a candidate. I just want you educated. I, I want, I don't want any fear based decisions. I don't want old information again from that women's health initiative to be pulled forward when we've had so many studies since then. And to think that breast cancer in particular single handedly is due to estrogen like, ooh, it's so com. It's so much more complicated than that.
- [20:07]
Carrie Jones
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love all of that because that's what I say as well is I want to give you the information. And even if it's a, if it's a one on one patient that is asking me, I'll sit down and say, we will talk about it. I will give you all of the information possible. You go out and listen to this podcast, this podcast and this podcast and this expert and then make that decision. But just like you said, Carrie, not out of fear, not out of fear mongering by your doctor. Either.
- [20:35]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yeah. Or outdated information or. Yeah. Or not just the fear mongering, just in general, either if it's old information that your doctor has or the group that you hang out with or the Facebook community you're on, maybe has it wrong, hasn't gotten updated yet and we, we want to dispel that.
- [20:52]
Carrie Jones
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So where estrogen can be a problem, and I'll use that term very loosely, estrogen dominance, not as it relates to cancer. I mean women can be estrogen dominant and have the bloat and the water retention and all of that or you know, a lot of women will say, oh, I think I'm estrogen dominant. And I'm like, your estradiol is a 55. Like, I don't think you're estrogen diet. You just think that you are. And you heard that term way too many. So what is true estrogen dominance? When does a woman experience it? And what is the difference between that and just improper estrogen detoxification?
- [21:27]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So, interestingly, improper estrogen detoxification can lead to estrogen dominance. Estrogen dominance is shortened. It's a big phrase. It's estrogen dominance relative to progesterone in the luteal phase. What does that mean? So in the second half of the cycle after ovulation, you should make boatloads of progesterone, loads of progesterone relative to estrogen. So think of progesterone like a big tall mountain, and estrogen's a little tiny bunny hill. Like, that's roughly the difference between the two of them. If progesterone is not a big tall mountain, if it's dropped down also to a bunny hill, or maybe it hasn't been produced at all. So it's like a flat ski trail. But estrogen is still a bunny hill. Like, estrogen wins. So we call it estrogen dominance, like, relative to progesterone. And what can happen when you get this imbalance between your mountain and your bunny hill is that you just exactly as you said. It's almost like pro growth. So they're like, oh, my boobs feel big. They feel like they. Like, I've got, like, clots. I have heavy bleeding, I'm breaking out, I'm moody now. Lower progesterone and higher estrogen can cause this. Basically the same symptoms. But we do know that estrogen can cause things to grow. So this is typically why these women will say, I such heavy, cloudy periods. I feel like my boobs have grown a size, et cetera. So when we're looking at that, I need to know, are you actually making more estrogen? Are you just not making enough progesterone? Or do we have a backup in the system? So you're making appropriate amounts of estrogen. Think of, like, when you go to take a bath. So you fill the water up with your. In your bathtub. But if your drain is clogged, what's gonna happen? The water overflows and ruins your bathroom. It's the same thing in the body. If your body is making just healthy, normal levels of estrogen, but your drain is clogged and your sewer line is clogged, your estrogen's just gonna, like, back up into the body and cause all sorts of issues. So this is why working on detoxification, which are essentially working on how fast is the water coming in, what is the drain doing, what is your sewer line doing of your own body is going to help with the regulation of estrogen as it goes up and down throughout your menstrual cycle.
- [23:35]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so this can affect women of any age.
- [23:38]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Any age. Any age. So even cycling women who are not on estrogen therapy, like, let's say somebody's listening to this. 30 years old, not even considering hormone therapy, but they're like, I have every single symptom you just said for all of those. It could be a progesterone issue, it could be an estrogen detoxification issue, it could be both. Now you have somebody listening to this, going, well, I'm 55 on estrogen and I'm having some of those symptoms. My boobs feel like they've grown since going on estrogen. I'm like, things are better, but I'm still moody. Or I'm having acne. Like, is it possible it's my hormones? It definitely could be. It could be.
- [24:16]
Carrie Jones
So do we start with the blood test? Do we start just looking at estrogen? Total estrogens, estradiol, break it down. Estradiol, estrone, estriol, and then progesterone and. And just kind of go from there. And then, of course, testing that in a woman's luteal phase, if she is cycling or any time if she's in.
- [24:37]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Menopause, I find most women prefer that route because most women have. Had. Not had any workup. Like, let's just say that, like, most women, unfortunately don't get the workup that you or I would do. So when they're getting blood work for the first time, they're often told, well, hormones change every day. We're not even going to test your hormones. And you're like, okay, but. Except we know in theory, like, we have a good idea after ovulation of where it should be. Like, I have my target points. So if I can get you to time your blood test at this certain time, if you're still having periods and a lot of women over 40 still have regular periods for a while. Yeah. Then let's do our blood test there and start there. If somebody says, I've been doing testing or I'm really interested in going deeper, it fits in my budget, I'm ready. That's when we go. I Still do blood work. I still need their thyroid. I still need their glucose and insulin and all these other markers. But then I'm like, all right, cool. Let's go the next level down, which is to look at a deeper view of estrogen detoxification. My preferred test, which you've mentioned already, is the Dutch test. There are other companies out there, however, that just gives me, like, where are your hormones going? I have an idea based on that test.
- [25:49]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so we'll get to the Dutch in a second. Staying on blood. When you look at that estrone and estradiol, are you freaking out if the estrone is higher than the estradiol or what? What do you look for in those patterns?
- [26:06]
Dr. Carrie Jones
I don't use. Not necessarily freak out, but I'm like, dang it. Dang it. Like, you know. Yes. Like, I'm glad you came in. I'm glad we're doing some testing. The same. If I see there's another marker, estrone S, which is estrone sulfate. So S part. The sulfate part means it's gone through. It's going through sulfation, and sulfation is part of detoxification, but we also call it like, a holding pattern. So the body puts a little S on it, and then when it needs it later, it can take the little S off, and now it's active, and it can go do the thing. So the same thing. If I see a lot of estrone s, which in the body, there is a lot, but, like, more than I expected. And a lot of estrone, estrone and estrone s just give me an indication of, like, it could be a lot more inflammatory. It could be a lot more problematic. I want to help support getting out the right way. Detoxification, essentially, because estradiol will kind of.
- [26:57]
Carrie Jones
Become estrone and vice versa.
- [26:59]
Dr. Carrie Jones
They can go back and forth. So estrone and estradiol. So E1 and E2 can go back and forth, but it's a controlled enzyme. We have no control over it. I can't look at your lab work and go, oh, you're in the red on E1 estrone, and you are low on estradiol and magically push a button and get you to go over to estradiol. Your. Your body is too smart for that. But I can support how your body clears it out of the body. Like how we detox. Yeah.
- [27:27]
Carrie Jones
Okay. So you look at. You look at the blood first.
- [27:30]
Dr. Carrie Jones
I do.
- [27:30]
Carrie Jones
And then, if we can, let's move to the Dutch now. You are an absolute Dutch. I've listened to so many podcasts of you unpacking the Dutch test. It's amazing. At your knowledge.
- [27:44]
Dr. Amy
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- [28:08]
Carrie Jones
So here's where it gets a little bit crazy.
- [28:10]
Dr. Amy
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- [29:37]
Carrie Jones
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- [29:39]
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- [29:59]
Carrie Jones
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- [30:00]
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- [30:25]
Carrie Jones
People just in case they haven't listened to another podcast on what is the Dutch, what is it? Why do we use it? What is it looking at?
- [30:31]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yeah, absolutely. And I will. I do want to go back for a second back to the blood works. I forgot to say this. You know, most detoxification happens in the liver. Now, it can happen all over, believe it or not. You have. You can do partial detoxification in cells all over. But if on your blood test, I see that you've got glucose issues, insulin issues, your liver enzymes are higher than I would want them to be. If you've been told it's been suggested to you a fatty liver, right away, I know detox modification is an issue. And so some of these other markers I just want to point out, because they show up on blood tests, and that's an easy thing, you know, to do, and generally covered by insurance. Mostly covered by insurance. But the Dutch test. Dutch is an acronym, funny enough. It stands for dried urine test for Comprehensive Hormones. And it's six pages of all the hormones you think, such as the estrogens. We just said E1, E2, E3, testosterone, DHAs, progesterone, cortisol, melatonin. There's all sorts of hormones on there. But what makes it six pages long is it goes through the pathways, some of the pathways of how they break down. So here's your testosterone. Where does it go? Here is your progesterone. Where does it go? Here are your estrogens. Where do they go? Here's your cortisol. Where does it go? And that's really nice to know where it goes, because, again, some of those pathways I'm all about. And some of those pathways cause side effects or increase the risk for cancer development. So by knowing this information, if you don't have your genetics, this can be so helpful. This is real time to me.
- [32:01]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so when you see those pathways on a Dutch, there's a 208, there's a 4. Oh, there's a 1608. Can you break those down for us so we can have a better understanding of what. What do those even mean? And why do we care?
- [32:14]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So the first phase of detoxification is they. You. Let's say you have estrogen, since we've been talking about it, you have E1 estrone. So estrone can't leave the body as estrone. So the body's like, all right, cool, cool. I'm gonna put you through phase one. It's called hydroxylation. I didn't name it. I would have named it something way cooler, but there we are. And they put a little. Oh, group on it, a hydroxyl group. So estrone goes through a mommy makeover and becomes. And through this, these pathways. And when you go through the pathways, you three options. We're still in phase one. Estrone can go through the two, the four, the 16 pathway, as you just said. And that puts an OH group on it. The two pathway is the better pathway to go through. It's the more stable pathway. The four pathway is the naughty pathway. If the four pathway continues, if you keep going through the benchmarks and nobody stops you, then you can be at risk for DNA damage, carcinogenesis, cancer, cause, et cetera. The 16 pathway is kind of a gray area pathway. It's a super big, think of it like a 16 lane highway. It's a big detoxification pathway in your body. It's one of your big main ones. And it is estrogenic when, when your hormone goes through that, when your estrone becomes 16. Oh. If it binds to an estrogen receptor, it can cause estrogenic symptoms, heavier periods, sore, tender breasts, pms, et cetera. But it's also really good for bones. Research has shown in women, if you have higher 16, you're. You have less risk for osteoporosis, osteopenia. So it's like a teeter totter. Like, I like the 16, but I don't want it. I don't want it to dominate and I don't want it too low. And I also know it's the major detox pathway. So that's phase one. I can't turn any of them off. I. There's no they, like you will always as a human, go down at least some part of it. But what we want, what we prefer is the majority of our estrogen becomes 2 oh, 2 hydroxy. And like I said way in the beginning, we can help modulate this through diet, lifestyle, and potentially some supplements before we move on to phases two and three.
- [34:15]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so we'll stay in phase one. Why do we even have the four? Oh, if it's so problematic, what, what's the purpose in our body for it? Do we know?
- [34:24]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So here's what's interesting. And I know I say that a lot, but like, biochemistry is so fascinating to me, I think because I almost failed it in medical school and then I realized the whole body is biochemistry. Like, once I got past that, I was like, oh, I really need to understand this. And so I've just been studying the heck out of it. And it's everything. Just like we are so fascinated as humans because so Many things go through this pathway, not just estrogen. And your body has stop gaps in it. So even if you go through the 4 pathway, there are still ways your bodies can say, like, there's just a route of excretion. And so if you go through the four pathway, there's still an offshoot which is uses the antioxidant glutathione that, like, gets rid of it. So it doesn't even matter that it went through the four pathway. The body's like, girl, I got you. I'm going to attach glutathione to you. You're going to poop it out, you're going to be fine. Or you're going to pee it out. You're going to be fine. And so even it's. The problem is if we get far enough along this pathway and no stop gap happens. So this pathway starts with a Q. It's the quinone pathway. So if we get quinone development, those are not that great in the body. But like I said, these pathways don't just detoxify estrogen, and they do have several offshoots to try to help us not be all naughty all the time.
- [35:35]
Carrie Jones
Right, Right. Okay. Now, is it just. You mentioned estrone. Is it just estrone that is going down?
- [35:43]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Estradiol does as well.
- [35:44]
Carrie Jones
Okay.
- [35:45]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Estriol does not. Estriol can become the 16. The estriol can become the 16. But usually what happens is the 16 becomes estriol, and then estriol goes through what's called phase two, which is called sulfation or glucuronidation, and then it's excreted. So we don't often talk about Estriol E3 1, because we generally all love E3. It's generally considered like a really cool, very, you know, very safe kind of. I don't want to say boring, but like, kind of, you know, it's. It's big in pregnancy, and we don't talk about it much as we get beyond that, even though it's important. So it takes a whole different pathway. It's the E1 and the E2 that goes through these. What we're talking about right now.
- [36:26]
Carrie Jones
Okay, well, since you just mentioned Estriol, I have to throw in a random question here. What are. What are your thoughts on Israel? It's like there's this great estradiol, estriol debate out there. Huge. I mean, it's huge. And it's so confusing, Carrie. And especially being post cancer. Yes. I have replaced with estradiol, but I'm like, should I be tossing in some Estriol too, just for shits and giggles? I mean, it's kind of like, why not?
- [36:49]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So I was taught way back in the day, 20 years ago that Estriol. Well, let me back up for a second. So the reason for everyone listening, the debate is, do you just take estradiol because that's what we have available, FDA approved the United States, or you can get it compounded? The other debate is that you should do a combination of estradiol and estriol. Well, there is no FDA approved estriol form in the United States. There is in Europe. And through the years, there have been a lot of pushback by pharmaceutical companies, one in particular, to get Estriol banned in the United States, which makes no sense to me because they have an Estriol product in Europe. But politics aside, pharmaceutical politics aside, again, these two camps, you should take both or you should just, you should just take estradiol. So I was taught years ago, you have two main estrogen receptors. You have more than that, but there's two main ones. You have estrogen receptor alpha. That's your go, go, go, Grow, grow, grow. And then you have estrogen receptor beta. That's generally considered like anticancer estriol. E3 prefers to bind to the beta. Estradiol binds to both 5050 and E1, Estrone prefers the alpha Go, go, go, go, go, go. Which is why when you mentioned estrone earlier, it's because it binds to the go, go, go, go, go go receptor, the alpha receptor. So I was taught years ago, like, while we want a mix, you want estradiol because it's 50, 50, and that's what's, you know, kind of makes the female body go round. And you want some Estriol because you really want to help that estrogen receptor beta be fully supported. If the estrogen, you're taking estradiol, it should be 50, 50, but nobody follows the rules. So if it is pushing on the alpha, you've got the beta as the backup with your Estriol. Fast forward. Then I learned, you know, like, that a lot of people are like, well, E2, estradiol is the only thing you want. That's what's important for the brain and the heart and the bones. And I agree with that 100%. I, I think, yes, absolutely. And I still feel Estriol isn't getting the love attention that it deserves and that we still want to support that estrogen receptor beta. I will say vaginally in my experience, estriol vaginally seems to help the best with lubrication. And I'm sure other practitioners may disagree with me, but I found that estradiol helps prevent, like, atrophy. It helped prevent yeast infections, it helps prevent urinary tract infections, it helps strengthen fantastic things. But I'd have women go, like, those things are better, but I'm still not, like, juicy. And I'm like, oh, we need to add an estriol. And when they added an estriol, they were like, hallelujah. Like, okay, now I'm juicy again. This is great. Obviously, not all women experience, but I would just have this. I just saw it over and over and over and over again that estrella brought the juicy back. It didn't stop the atrophy. It didn't stop the yeast infections or the urinary tract infections. But I did find that just from the lubrication factor, like, woof, it brought it up to the next level, and that's what women were looking for.
- [39:32]
Carrie Jones
Well, and. And that's the thing. It's like, there's no harm. It sounds like there is no harm in adding in estriol. And now we have Estriol face creams, we have body creams. We have ways to get it. Like, okay, even if big pharma bans it or whatever, hopefully it'll stay at least OTC over the counter that we can buy.
- [39:52]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Compounded.
- [39:53]
Carrie Jones
Yeah, care formulation. Right.
- [39:56]
Dr. Carrie Jones
You can get it compounded. I mean, I, you know, lots. Most compounders. That's where I learned is all the compounders were like, we don't have an FDA approved, but we can absolutely include it or make it separate if that's something you want. And yeah, I. That's. That's what I did for years and years in practice. Women seem to really like it now. Not all women, you know. Right. Like, so some women are like, no, I only like my estradiol by itself. Like, cool. All right, I'll support you personal preference. Yeah, exactly. Like, we got it. Let's do what works.
- [40:23]
Carrie Jones
Yeah. So, okay, I kind of sidetracked, but I had to ask. I had to, because there's, like this huge debate out there. So, okay, we go through phase one. Now what? Now we move into.
- [40:35]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So phase one, first of all, phase two. One predominantly happens in the liver, like I said. So. And it goes through. Uses these enzymes called cytochrome P450 enzymes. Again, I didn't name them, but there you go. Cyp. Cytochrome P450. You can test them. You can see genetically what yours are doing. And they're hem dependent, which means they rely on iron. So if you're iron anemic, iron deficient, you don't eat a lot of iron based products. You're going to struggle here in this phase one. When you go through phase one, what you, the two and the four and the 16, they're not that healthy overall. Two is where we want to go, but in the end you can cause problems. It's a metabolite that's a little unstable. So we want to move them into phase two as fast as possible. So we, we want to, like, we don't even want to stop at phase one. We just want to keep right on trucking on to phase two. And the reason is we're trying to make it fat soluble to water soluble. So this process requires you to, you know, when you're going through hell, keep on going. So we go through like the, the naughty metabolite into the good metabolite. So phase two has one if not two steps to it. So the first step can be something called methylation, which some people are familiar with because of the concept of MTHFR and oh my gosh, you know, the dreaded mthfr. But it's actually the methylation cycle. Folate is a tiny part of. But that's, that's not the cycle I meant I'm talking about. And if it doesn't go through methylation, it will go through two other forms called sulfation or glucuronidation. Or if you go through methylation, you still have to go through sulfation or glucuronidation. Again, I didn't design this or, or name them, but there you are, no matter what. And we haven't even gotten into the like, what you can do in the treatments and everything. No matter what, like you can still support these phases. You can test your methylation, you can test your methylation cycle. We can get a snapshot of it in blood, we can evaluate your sulfation to a degree because we can do estrone s testing, we can do DHEA s in the blood. Like we can kind of get an idea of how do you sulfate or not. And then we can, we can work with that. But when we go through into phase two, you're now considered water soluble and you're very safe, you're a very safe molecule in the body. So this is what we want to get you to.
- [42:44]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so we move through phase two.
- [42:46]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yep.
- [42:47]
Dr. Amy
And are we seeing that on the.
- [42:48]
Carrie Jones
Dutch two, are we seeing phase two or just phase?
- [42:50]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So you are seeing part of phase one. So you see phase one and then you will see methylation, which is phase two. Because Dutch is a urine test, that means it's already gone through phase two into phase three. So what Dutch has done is they've pulled all the molecules that have gone through sulfation or glucuronidation, so they'll have little S's and little G's on them and they just take them off and then they report essentially like the step right before. So it's on the actual paper you see up to methylation. But because I worked there for so long in concept, I'm like, oh, I know. It's sulfation and glucuronidation we're actually looking at. Yeah, I know.
- [43:24]
Dr. Amy
Yeah.
- [43:24]
Dr. Carrie Jones
But for everyone listening, you can see up to methylation.
- [43:27]
Carrie Jones
You can see. Okay, you can see up to it. And then the phase three. Well, what is phase three is the.
- [43:32]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Active get leaving the body. So that's your sur. That's when you poop it out or you pee it out. And because Dutch is a urine test, then it's the pee it out part. If you've done any kind of stool testing, you've pooped in a cup. For science. There's a marker on there that we look at the, the microbiome markers, the dysbiosis markers. We look at a crazy enzyme called beta glucuronidase, which plays with that phase two glucuronidation. So we, we can evaluate like, how well does it go out of your stool or does it get reabsorbed back into your body. If you're listening to this going, well, I have constipation, you got a clogged up sewer line. So you're just going to get it back in your body. So that's phase three. That's the actual literal exit out of the body.
- [44:13]
Carrie Jones
So people who, and I mean this is. Is prevalent in thyroid disease when they're not being treated properly and they're constipated. So people who are not pooping once, preferably two, three times a day. Start right there.
- [44:25]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Start right there. Yeah.
- [44:28]
Carrie Jones
You're not even detoxifying. And so you are absolutely going to become estrogen dominant or have a backup in your system through the detoxification pathways because you're not even excreting it at the end. Yeah. So, yeah, if you're not, if you're not going to the bathroom, you're. You're already Starting right there with issues, you're going to be estrogen dominant. Dominant. You're going to have issues detoxifying.
- [44:49]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yes, yes. Yeah. Don't even spend the money on the Dutch test or a stool test or any. Don't spend the money. We have to get you pooping. Same if you're under hydrated. And for example, my nurses, my doctors, anyone in medical, my teachers, like, who just don't go to the bathroom. Right. They have to hold it all day because of their schedule.
- [45:07]
Carrie Jones
Right.
- [45:08]
Dr. Carrie Jones
I'm like, oh, my gosh. I know. You have to. Because of your schedule. I need you to, like, flush your body. I need you to drink water, go to the bathroom. Yeah.
- [45:15]
Carrie Jones
We need to get things moving here. Like, the kids can wait. Seriously?
- [45:19]
Dr. Amy
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yes. Yes.
- [45:21]
Carrie Jones
Okay, so that, that's the end. So now let's go back and what can we do? You mentioned lifestyle changes. You mentioned some supplements that we can add in. So I'm going to ask about myself. Let's start there. In that phase one, I push moderately, heavily down the four. Oh, and a little bit on the 16. Not horrible, but it's definitely there. And it has been there. Just like when I was talking to you on your podcast. My one regret was not paying attention to the Dutch test that I did in 2022 that actually showed that I pushed down the 400 wage. So what can we do?
- [45:54]
Dr. Carrie Jones
We have a couple options. So we'll start with the 16 pathway. As I said, that's your super highway or, you know, your 16 lane superhighway. We don't ever want to slow the 16 down. Just like if you live in the city and have a 16 lane highway, you know what happens when they close a lane? It's all chaos. So what we want to do is take more cars off the road or offer more exit ramps. So for you in particular or anyone listening, I'm like, what potentially are you exposed to? Are you doing that's adding more cars on the road? Is it environmental toxicants? Is it alcohol? Is it medications? You know, people sometimes pop Tylenol, acetaminophen like it's candy. Like, are you on something heavy for an autoimmune condition that's clogging up the liver. I know you need it. What can we do to support it? Things like this, that's what all goes down a lot of the 16 pathway. So I don't want to slow that down. I just want to open it up and move things through. Now for the 4 pathway, I want to minimize that pathway. So these are supplements. Unfortunately, we don't have human studies, we have rat and cell studies. So we're using what we have in the moment for this. But there are supplements such as quercetin. So foods with quercetin, like apples, is an example. Quercetin is common for allergies, histamine, but it also helps to reduce this pathway, resveratrol. Resveratrol helps to reduce this pathway. And I was just reading this article about oroxylin A, which is in the herb scudal area. So scutellaria, we think of like for stress and calm and sleep. But this one component of it has been shown to reduce the four pathway. As well. So if you're already on quercetin for your allergies, if you're doing resveratrol for antioxidant, whatever, it's hopefully reducing that pathway. The other pathway is the two pathway. The two pathway, we want to upregulate as best we can, if we can. So these are foods such as your cruciferous vegetables. These are your broccoli, your kale, your cauliflower, Brussels sprouts. Those foods are really helpful for this pathway. Now, I've been asked, can I just eat my way through this pathway? Like, if I'm in your situation, can I just, you know, Carrie, I don't normally eat Brussels sprouts. Can I just add in a serving of Brussels sprouts every day? Well, I have a research paper that shows it's like six to seven cups a day that you're going to need. Most people don't eat six to seven cups of cruciferous vegetables a day.
- [48:06]
Carrie Jones
Right?
- [48:06]
Dr. Carrie Jones
You, I mean, maybe at your best, you're three to four on a great day, but six to seven is kind of a lot. So what's in the Brassica, these family, this whole family cruciferous family, is in a compound called Indole 3 Carbinol I3C. When you chew these foods up and they hit your stomach acid, you have to have stomach acid, they break apart into a few other compounds, one of which is known as dim, diindolmethane. DIM helps shift towards the two pathway. And we do have a retrospective study, but it is on people. It is, it is on predominantly women that shows that people on dim, their 2 pathway goes up and like their 16 pathway, it just shifts. It doesn't block the 16 pathway, it just shifts it away. There's a receptor that DIM activates and that's what helps shift it over to the two pathway. So when someone says, like, you're A great example. If you were to call them, have called me and said, you know, should I do dim? Should I eat Brassica family? Should I take Quercetin for you? I would have said, yes, all of the above. Like, let's just support the heck out of your phase one. Absolutely. While all the other, like, of course, addressing all the other, you know, just general liver support in your, in your life. But yeah, those are the sort of main, the main things I can find the most like, research on to take to wrap my, my hands around. It's not ideal. There's no big pharmaceutical money in any of these. So are we going to find a thousand person woman study on resveratrol on this? No, but we're doing the best we can with what we have.
- [49:32]
Carrie Jones
Well, and then just retest. So that's my plan, actually. I'm doing all of those things that you just said and then retest and look at my pathways and see if they have changed. And yeah, and I'm so happy you brought up Dan, because this is another big controversy. There's a lot of practitioners out there saying, well, DIM will reduce your estradiol. And it's like, but I'm on it anyways.
- [49:54]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Like, right. So you would just have to adjust the dose. So I do get asked. I don't use a lot of dim. I'll be honest. In like, menopausal women with low estrogen levels. If you're on estrogen, like, you're a very separate case than, let's say, me. So you came to me, Carrie, you know, uterine cancer, but I'm back on estrogen. Here's my Dutch results. I don't favor the two pathway. Would you put me on dim if I was your doctor? This is not legal or medical advice, but, yes, I would.
- [50:20]
Carrie Jones
Right.
- [50:21]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yes, I would. Because you're already on estrogen and you have a very recent history and you're a great candidate for it. We're also going to talk about phases two and three. But yes, the average person listening going, well, I've never had breast cancer or uterine cancer and I'm not on estrogen, but I have low levels. Should I go on dim? It can make it lower. This, this human, this retrospective human study that looked at it did show it dropped estrogen levels. So you don't want your estrogen lower. Then we skip phase one, we move on to phase two and phase three instead. And that's totally okay because some people go, but what about the four? You said the four was naughty. But remember, I Said the four had, like, these sort of like, pathways out from it that, like glutathione. Like, we have other ways to support. Even if you go down the four pathway, we have so many ways to support it away from it that it's okay. We can skip the dim if you don't want high levels of estrogen. Amy, if you were to stop your estrogen, let's say you just decided ultimately in the future, like, wow, I really shouldn't be on estrogen, whatever reason, then I would say, okay, stop the dim.
- [51:24]
Carrie Jones
Yeah.
- [51:25]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Because you're not even on it anymore and you already, like, you know, you're menopausal, so let's, let's not do that.
- [51:30]
Carrie Jones
Okay.
- [51:30]
Dr. Carrie Jones
So I do like that caveat because sometimes people hand out dim like it's candy, like Oprah hands out cars. And I'm like, ooh. It will lower estrogen. And in a low estrogen state. Not ideal.
- [51:40]
Carrie Jones
Yeah, yeah. Well, I like it for guys because it'll lower their dominance.
- [51:45]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yeah, totally. And with men, they still need some estrogen, believe it or not. Like, it's important for their mood, it's important for their bones. Like, they still need a little bit of estrogen. But we've all maybe noted somebody who has gone on testosterone or just happens to have, you know, they drink a lot of alcohol or have insulin issues, so they happen to have a lot of estrogen and they get breast development and they get the beer belly look and they're moody and they're not motivated and you're like, that's a lot of estrogen they've got floating around.
- [52:09]
Dr. Amy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no doubt.
- [52:11]
Carrie Jones
Okay, now moving into phase two. And three. Now what?
- [52:15]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yes. Okay. The generic general support for phases. Phase two are twofold. One I've already said is, is glutathione, which is a very potent antioxidant. So supporting glutathione, however, that looks can be very helpful. The other comes from broccoli sprouts. So if you're a sprout person, if you like to grow your own sprouts, if you like to put sprouts on sandwiches and salads, aim for the organic broccoli sprouts. When you chew or chop the sprout. Not a full grown broccoli, but like the sprout, when you chew or chop the sprout, these two compounds come together and like superwoman, they turn into something called, again I didn't name it, sulforaphane. Sulforaphane with S, U, L. Sulforaphane helps Open up or activate something like 200 phase 2 enzymes. So remember earlier I was talking about like water and drains and sewer lines. Sulforaphane helps open up some 200 drains, bathtub drains, shower drains in your body. So which is great. And included in that 200 are the drains for estrogen. So add in broccoli sprouts. Grow organic broccoli sprouts on your counter. Or it does come as a supplement and you can add that in. It will help with the drain part of detoxification. Whereas glutathione helps neutralize over here, sulforaphane opens up drains. So that's the first, like the most basic when we're talking about methylation. Methylation uses a lot of nutrients. So methyl B vitamins, B2, B3, B6, B12, methylfolate, choline, like in egg yolks. So are you able to eat egg yolks? Can you eat egg yolks? Trimethylglycine, which is tmg. Trimethylglycine is a supplement, but it has that word methyl in there. Very important. Zinc. Zinc is helpful. Are you eating foods with zinc in them? How is your zinc doing? These all help move that system around. But the main, main, main CO factor is magnesium. Magnesium, which is like hundreds of reactions use magnesium, including estrogen detoxification. So are you getting enough magnesium? Are you eating enough magnesium? Do you maybe need to add in some more magnesium? That's like the main, main, main CO factor. And so you can see right away where food is. Nutrition is super important. And then are you absorbing it? And if not, we can add in a little here and there to help.
- [54:31]
Carrie Jones
Well, that's easy to do. I mean, that's not like a big confusing protocol just to help with detoxification.
- [54:37]
Dr. Carrie Jones
It's not. And I've listed off a lot of things. I don't want people to think you have to do all 20 things I said at all. No, no, no, no. Definitely start with the colon. Are you pooping? Are you hydrated and peeing? Right? Like, we start there, then we go, food is nutrition. Or do you eat cruciferous vegetables? And I understand what the thyroid fear. People are like, well, I don't eat them because of my thyroid. Slightly cooked steamed foods, broccoli sprouts, really helpful. Can you, can you, Are you able, you know, are you able to do that? So then we check what's the alcohol look like? Right? Are you, Are we. What's the, what's the medication look like? What is your glucose doing? Is it possible you have Fatty liver. Like, we got to work on some of these things. What are you being exposed to? What are you putting on your body, in your body, around your body? Start reading labels. Right. And, like, so far, we haven't spent any money. I'm just evaluating what you're doing.
- [55:22]
Carrie Jones
Yeah.
- [55:22]
Dr. Carrie Jones
And what you're eating. And then from there you might go, you know what? I probably do need magnesium. All right. I can add in a little magnesium. You know what? I love to grow things. I'm going to grow broccoli sprouts. I'm going to buy organic broccoli sprout seeds and grow them myself on my counter. That's what I do.
- [55:37]
Carrie Jones
Okay, well, easy. If I don't want to eat broccoli sprouts, does that come in a supplement form?
- [55:42]
Dr. Carrie Jones
It does. 100% comes as a supplement, yes.
- [55:44]
Dr. Amy
Okay.
- [55:45]
Dr. Carrie Jones
And I have those, too, for when I travel. Yes. Or when I'm not home and can't, like, tend to my sprouts. But yes, you can take that same. Some people are already on glutathione. Right. They're already. Their doctor practitioner already has them taking glutathione or N acetylcysteine nac. And so some of these things, people listening may be like, oh, check, check, check. I'm already doing some of these. Or I'm already taking a B complex. Let me read the label. Oh, look at that. B2, B3, B6, B12, methylfolate. Like, okay, check, check, check. Got it. And that's what makes it really nice. A lot of times we're already doing. We just maybe have to amp it up. And if you're not doing, like, all right, let's. Let's double down.
- [56:23]
Carrie Jones
Yeah, I love that. Okay, that's beautiful. Now, last question. I want to just leave with. With this. I know we talked about estrogen detoxification a ton today, but even with the Dutch test, do you even recommend women who, let's say they haven't been on hormones for five, maybe 10 years post menopause, is it even beneficial to do a Dutch test?
- [56:47]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Or.
- [56:48]
Carrie Jones
Or should they actually implement some kind of hormonal therapy first? That's always been my take. Like, if I'm working with a patient that came in and she's, again, 10 years, no hormones post menopause, I'm like, let's get these started. Based on your blood, we know they're all in the toilet. And then let's test your Dutch. Because I always heard that doing a Dutch test on a woman with no hormones is like doing an audit of a 16 year old's bank account. You're just not going to see that much.
- [57:14]
Dr. Carrie Jones
It's zero. So again, two camps for that. Some people feel they want the Dutch test because not only the ovarian hormones are a part of it, but they want to look at the cortisol levels, melatonin. The last page is called the organic acid page. It gives some extra information. So sometimes some people, it fits in their budget, they really want it, they're educated about it and they want a before and after. Other people, it's 100% true. She hasn't had hormones in a long while. My analogy is you're staring at a riverbank that's like dried up and you're asking me, well, how high does the estrogen get? Like, right. Like where does it go? Like where you know, how does the estrogen have waves? I'm like, I don't know. There's no estrogen in her body. It's a dried up bank.
- [57:56]
Carrie Jones
Right.
- [57:56]
Dr. Carrie Jones
But once we get water in, once we get estrogen right into your estrogen river, then I can see. So I feel I can go either way on this decision because it's either way you're going to use, you're going to test for these metabolites. So if she don't start right from the get go, it's not like you're going to let her go years and not know. Yeah, A couple of months and you're going to do a test and see what's going on and then you'll know right away.
- [58:18]
Dr. Amy
Beautiful.
- [58:18]
Carrie Jones
I want to ask the expert on that one.
- [58:20]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yes. Yeah, I'm kind of, I'm 50. Yeah. The person depends on the person in front of you and their goals, their budget, what you find in the blood work, things like that and sometimes history. Sometimes, you know, I may be thinking like, oh, I'll wait on a Dutch test. And then they're like, well, I have this strong history of craziness or personal history or family history. And I'm like, oh, you know what, I should probably know this ahead of time. Let's go ahead and test.
- [58:42]
Carrie Jones
Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay.
- [58:45]
Dr. Amy
Beautiful.
- [58:46]
Carrie Jones
Oh my God. Well, okay, Gary, we have to bring you on for a part two because there's so much that I want to ask you that we're just not going to get to this time. So we'll, we'll break this up as well and do a part two. We'll coordinate that. But for now, can you tell people where they can find you. You just released your podcast. It's amazing. I'm so happy that you, you started because you're like I said in the beginning, your knowledge base is just huge. Give all of that knowledge that's inside your brain to the world. So I'm very grateful for that. But where can people find you and listen to your podcast?
- [59:16]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Yes. Thank you. I am at Dr. Carrie Jones Dr. C A R R I E J O N E s dot com Everything's there Free ebooks Everything I'm Doing Articles Podcast is called hello Hormones. It is literally, literally brand new. Amy's was one of the first guests I interviewed. So the hello Hormones podcast with Dr. Carrie Jones. Because I like to talk about all things hormones and I have an opinion, so I'm going to say it.
- [59:40]
Carrie Jones
I love the title too. Women everywhere are going to find it just because it has hormones. Beautiful. Well, we'll put all the links in the show notes. But Dr. Carey, thank you so much for jumping on. It's been such a pleasure. Love talking to you and we're definitely going to have you back on.
- [59:54]
Dr. Carrie Jones
Oh, Dr. Amy, thank you.
- [59:55]
Carrie Jones
Okay, till next time.
- [60:01]
Dr. Amy
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