575. Controversial: Can You Cure Your Pain or Chronic Disease with Your Mind? Explore the Power of TMS

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Controversial: Can You Cure Your Pain or Chronic Disease with Your Mind? Explore the Power of TMS
Host: Dr. Amie Hornaman
Guest: Daniel Brown
Date: November 4, 2025

This episode of The Thyroid Fixer delves into the controversial and thought-provoking idea that chronic pain—and even chronic diseases—may be rooted more in our minds and emotions than in physical structures or injuries. Dr. Amie Hornaman is joined by Daniel Brown, a real estate investor and self-described health enthusiast who overcame his own incurable autoimmune pain syndrome by applying the principles of TMS (Tension Myoneural Syndrome), originally popularized by Dr. John Sarno. Together, they explore the science, resistance, and transformative stories behind the mind-body connection in chronic illness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Amie’s Journey & Introduction to TMS

• Dr. Amie shares how her cancer diagnosis prompted a flood of well-meaning advice—but Daniel’s approach stood out:

  "He was offering something a little bit different... This is not just trauma, and you heal your trauma and poof, your cancer goes away. No, no, no. That's not what Dan was saying." (07:06)

• Back pain became a persistent symptom for her post-cancer, leading her to experiment with Daniel’s TMS suggestions, resulting in noticeable, if intermittent, improvement.

2. Daniel Brown’s Background & Health Philosophy

• Daniel is not in the health business—his “day job” is in real estate. His health journey began as a mainstream fitness and nutrition follower, later embracing a contrarian approach:

  "If I just do the exact opposite of all mainstream health advice, I end up getting really healthy... It shouldn't be that ridiculous, but it actually is that ridiculous." (15:39)

• Achieved remarkable health but then developed an "incurable" autoimmune disease, complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS, “the suicide disease"), typically considered uncurable.

3. Discovery of Dr. John Sarno’s Work

• Daniel stumbled upon Dr. Sarno’s books, which propose that chronic pain is often a physical manifestation of deeply-held, often unconscious, emotions or traumas.
• Sarno observed that many people with visible injuries or abnormalities (on X-rays, MRIs) have no pain, while others with similar findings suffer intensely:

  "The pattern was that nearly all of these people were holding onto, whether they knew it or not... some kind of pain, emotion, trauma, rage, whatever you want to call it..." (00:00, 18:01)

• Daniel recounted a pivotal personal moment after reading Sarno:

  “I look at the mirror in the gym and look back at my ankle, and I just politely said... fuck off. And it stopped... that’s three years ago... that was it. Never came back.” (24:17)

4. TMS: How It Works & Faith in Simplicity

• TMS stands for Tension Myoneural Syndrome (or Mind Body Syndrome), the concept that the unconscious mind diverts attention from psychological distress by creating physical symptoms.
• Dr. Sarno’s surprising clinical finding: up to 80% of patients had dramatic improvement simply by consistently absorbing the TMS message—often just by reading his books or attending seminars:

  “8 out of 10 people... would actually remove their symptoms without even knowing what the thing was that happened when they were five years old.” (33:26)

5. The Role of Unconscious Belief & Diagnoses

• Daniel points out that having a “diagnosis” can cement the belief that pain is a fixed physical problem, which itself contributes to the perpetuation of symptoms:

  “A diagnosis in itself creates the problem... It puts things in a box... If the same things prevent or fix each thing, doesn't that mean that each thing is just a symptom?” (45:02)

• Both hosts emphasize that the core causes of chronic illness and pain are usually a combination of lifestyle factors (diet, movement, exposure to toxins, etc.) and emotional factors (conscious and, especially, unconscious emotions).

6. Internal Dialogue, Placebo/Nocebo, and the Power of Mindset

• The mind’s expectations—positive or negative—profoundly influence symptoms:

  “If you believe you’re the lose your glasses person, you don’t lose your glasses, that is dangerous, that's unbalanced. So I have to create the balance for you. Therefore, the lady he refers to in the book, I believe I'm going to die. Your unconscious goes, okay, I can't discern for you... that’s what happens.” (52:30)

• The negative “nocebo” effect and positive placebo effect both prove that belief shapes outcome, often at a biological level.

7. How to Start: Resources & Advice

• Dr. Amie and Daniel recommend starting with Dr. Sarno’s The Mind-Body Prescription (“the OG”, as Amie says) and then reading Steve Ozanich’s works—especially his shorter book, which summarizes Sarno’s key lessons.

  “You literally just have to read or listen to a book multiple times for this to set in.” (39:36)

• Daniel’s advice: No need to dig up every trauma for initial relief—just absorbing the core ideas can often trigger a breakthrough.
• Beware of programs and practitioners selling elaborate protocols for profit:

  “You will run across [TMS] in the health and wellness space where you literally have to listen to a book… That just blows you away…” (58:21)

8. Self-Responsibility, Skepticism, and Simplifying Health

• The approach is both radical and, in practice, “simple”—no special equipment or years of therapy necessary, just a willingness to question, reflect, and persist in re-learning about your pain.
• However, Daniel and Dr. Amie both stress that lifestyle and physiological factors matter too; TMS is not a replacement for all physical health interventions.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Amie Hornaman

  "What we're going to talk about today is probably going to rattle your mind a little bit. You're going to be taken aback... You might have to listen to this a few times." (07:42) "You don't have to know and you don't have to go into psychotherapy." (36:06) "If this can shift you, it can shift you. So if you keep an open mind, it will shift you.” (60:41)

• Daniel Brown

  "If I just do the exact opposite of all mainstream health advice, I end up getting really healthy.” (15:44)
  "My unconscious is way smarter than me. It had one job to do. Its job was to protect me... so it will put [pain] somewhere that makes sense, that's believable." (43:06)
  "8 out of 10 people like me with my CRPS would actually remove their symptoms without even knowing what the thing was that happened when they were five years old..." (33:26)
  "It's the same with all of it... Simplify." (59:51)

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Important Timestamps

• Intro to TMS & Daniel’s Story: — [06:43–12:16]
• Complex Regional Pain Syndrome explained: [18:34–19:31]
• Discovery & Explanation of Sarno’s Ideas: [19:34–26:13]
• Daniel’s Breakthrough with TMS: [24:17–26:13]
• Addressing the Skeptic’s “But I have a diagnosis…”: [28:19–29:17]
• Addressing the logic voice, placebo, and nocebo: [29:17–32:36], [49:13–52:26]
• Dr. Amie’s personal experience with back pain and resistance: [38:08–42:16]
• Diagnoses as a Double-Edged Sword: [44:57–49:13]
• How to Practice TMS / Further Reading: [55:51–59:03]
• Where to Find Daniel Brown: [61:49–62:55]

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Resources & Further Exploration

• Books
  • The Mind-Body Prescription – Dr. John Sarno
  • Healing Back Pain – Dr. John Sarno
  • The Great Pain Deception – Steve Ozanich
  • Top 10 Learnings of Sarno (short book) – Steve Ozanich
• Online
  • Daniel’s Instagram: @the_not_a_doc
  • TMS Facebook groups, podcasts, discussion forums (vet for quality!)
• Podcast Episode Shownotes

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Summary & Takeaways

• TMS is a radical but clinically tested approach: Many chronic pain or disease symptoms may originate from the unconscious mind’s effort to distract/protect you from deeper emotional pain.
• You don’t always have to uncover trauma to heal: For many, just deeply believing in the mind-body connection and breaking the hold of a diagnosis can bring significant relief.
• Your beliefs—positive and negative—can manifest physically: Managing your self-talk and questioning your assumptions is critical.
• Lifestyle still matters: Physical health habits and addressing underlying trauma – not just one or the other – yield best results.
• Resources are accessible and inexpensive: Start with reading the recommended books; no costly programs or years of therapy needed for most.

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If this episode resonates, Dr. Amie urges you to re-listen, explore the recommended books, and keep an open mind to the healing potential within.

Transcript

[A]

And the pattern was that nearly all of these people were holding onto, whether they knew it or not, because it was often deep unconscious stuff, holding on to some kind of pain, emotion, trauma, rage, whatever you want to call it, doesn't really matter from earlier in life, usually childhood. And once they started to address that stuff, weirdly, these physical things would go away.

[B]

Welcome to the Thyroid Fixer podcast where we dive deep into the world of thyroid and hormones. Especially for you ladies navigating perimenopause and menopause, and really for anyone struggling with hypothyroidism. I'm your host, Dr. Amy, thyroid and hormone specialist and CEO of a global telemedicine practice where we prescribe the right thyroid treatment and bioidentical hormones to all 50 states and most of Canada, helping you become that badass human that you're meant to be. So if you're battling weight gain and hair loss, you can't lose weight no.

[C]

Matter what you do.

[B]

Your energy levels are plummeting and your libido left town that you're in the right place and you have found your tribe. Remember, I want you to embrace every inch of that badass woman that you truly are. So if you're ready to dive in and fix things, let's get started. If you care about your hormones, metabolism and longevity, you have to care about your muscle. Muscle is your body's most protective organ. It stabilizes hormones, burns fat, and keeps you strong and independent as you age. Here's the problem. We start losing our muscle in our 30s and that loss accelerates during perimenopause, menopause, or after injury. That's why I love Suji. It's a complete wearable that helps you strengthen and activate muscles using just 20% of the weight you would normally lift. Get that 20% of the weight that.

[C]

You would normally lift.

[B]

It uses smart targeted compression to mimic the effects of high intensity training so you can build strength, relieve joint pain and protect your metabolism in minutes a day. Minutes.

[C]

It is drug free.

[B]

Obviously it's a wearable. It's not a takeable backed by science and trusted by professional athletes and physical therapists. So learn more or try it risk free for 30 days at tris.com that's T R Y-S U J I.com use my code Dr. Amy D R A M I E and that will save you money because you want to build lasting strength with less strain. I completely and totally hear you and I see you and I understand you and I know exactly where you're at you're gaining weight, you can't lose. You have all the symptoms that no one's listening to. The fatigue, the hair loss, the brain fog. You can't remember why you walked into a room. You don't want to get dressed and go out because you know if you.

[C]

Have that glass of wine with your friend, if you have that dessert with.

[B]

Your husband or even order an appetizer, you're going to be five pounds heavier the next day and your clothes are already tight. Every single doctor is telling you that you're normal and everything is fine. You've been to multiple conventional medicine doctors trying to use your insurance, hoping to God that somebody has an answer. Then you've dropped thousands of dollars on functional medicine or integrative medicine, because you keep hearing how functional medicine gets to the root cause of the problem. But not every functional medicine practitioner knows the thyroid and knows the hormones and can treat you as a nuanced, personalized individual, a unique person. That is exactly what my team and I do. We specialize in thyroid problems. We specialize in hormones. You can't do one without the other. You cannot just see someone for your thyroid and have them ignore your hormones or have them half ass your hormones. They better be a hormone and thyroid expert if you are going to spend your time, your energy and your money if you are going to invest in functional medicine, they need to be a thyroid and hormone expert and treat you as an individual.

[C]

They can't have a cap on how.

[B]

Much T3 that they're going to give you. They have to personalize your treatment plan to get you feeling your best, no.

[C]

Matter what that looks like, so that.

[B]

Every system in your body functions at.

[C]

The very top, at the very best.

[B]

And that is exactly what we do. I made it my mission because I went through this. I was dismissed, I was gaslit, I was misdiagnosed, and I dropped thousands of dollars before I found an answer. That is why I made it my mission to be able to treat people in all 50 states so we can prescribe via telehealth, thyroid and hormones and peptides. Yeah, the GLPs as well, to all 50 states, most of Canada and now Puerto Rico. That is my mission to be able to help you wherever you are because I want you living your best life. I want you to join me in optimization land where you can go out and love life and go out with.

[C]

Your friends and go out with your.

[B]

Partner and not gain weight looking sideways at a brownie. Yes, we do have financing options available. I'm talking like 0% or 12 months.

[C]

The whole thing based on your credit score. We got you.

[B]

And our programs are affordable. They're completely and totally affordable.

[C]

And they will get you from point.

[B]

A to point B. They will bring you into optimization land. So please don't waste another moment struggling, please. I want you living here with me, a great, happy life in optimization land. So go to my [e-mail], click the Become a patient button so we can have a chat. Let's talk it out. Let's hear what you've done, what you haven't done, what's worked, what hasn't worked, and let's get you on the right path to feeling your absolute best, if you can imagine the best life ever that is absolutely possible for you. I'm not BSing you. I am not BSing you. I was in your shoes. Many of my patients have been in your shoes.

[C]

We will get you there.

[B]

And that is my promise to you.

[C]

So back when I was going through my cancer diagnosis, so many people reached out offering their help, and it truly, I mean, it touched my heart, it humbled me. I've said that before time and time again on the show, that it brought new faith to humanity in me because, gosh, I, I, I thought that we were all selfish, but turns out we're not. So one of the people that reached out to me is dear friend and colleague Daniel Brown. And he was offering something a little bit different. You know, a lot of the messages the DMs that I got were you, did you try this cancer treatment? Did you tri, Ivermectin, Fenbendazole, all of those, those protocols that are out there to help treat cancer alternatively. But Dan was a little bit different. He's like, ah, I just want to jump on a call with you. I'm like, okay, that's fine.

[B]

I'm open.

[C]

So we start talking and we really start unpacking this thing that I have never, ever heard of before called tms. Now, he didn't jump right into it. He kind of, he kind of eased me into it. Because what we're going to talk about today is probably going to rattle your mind a little bit. You're going to be taken aback. You might think it's a little woo. You might not be able to completely wrap your mind around the concept of what we're going to talk about today. So you might have to listen to this a few times. And Dan knew that when he reached out to me, he knew I can't just jump right in and say, hey, Amy, guess what? Turns out the cancer or maybe, you know, other things going on with you, which I will share about my back pain. Other things going on with you could be tied to emotions. Now, many people had reached out saying, did you look at your trauma? Trauma, trauma, trauma, everywhere trauma. But this is different. This is not just trauma. And you heal your trauma and poof, your cancer goes away. No, no, no. That's not what Dan was saying. What we're going to talk about today is something very, very interesting. It definitely opened my mind. I'm trying it out right now. I'm trying to wrap my mind around it. And ironically, Dan, I've actually heard other people talk about it. Even last weekend, I was at a Mastermind, and my dear friend Karen Martell is there, and she was talking to a gentleman that had back pain. She goes, yeah, I told him to get this book by John Sarnos. I'm like, wait, wait, you too have heard of tms? I thought it was just me.

[B]

I thought this was brand new.

[C]

So, Dan, first, welcome to the show. We're going to get into your background, who you are, how you came into this space, what TMS is. But, you know, first, I don't even know where I want to start first, because this is such a unique topic. What I want to say first before we dive in, is anyone listening who has pain in their body anywhere? Back pain, shoulder pain, ankle pain, whatever. Anybody who's listening who has a chronic disease. Yes. Even all the way to the big C. I want you to listen to this episode with an open mind because Dan had to chip away at me over months in order to get my mind opened. Enough cracked open, enough to where I said, okay, I'm going to try this.

[B]

Because enough is enough.

[C]

And. And before we dive in, sorry to interrupt one more time, my back pain that we're dealing with right now that I'll pull into this conversation. After I got through the cancer, which all of you know, many of you know, if you listen to my journey, I ended up having the hysterectomy, having it removed. But still, I'm still in the prevention state. Dad's like, is there anything else going on? I'm like, yeah. Like, for nine months now, I have had this stabbing, radiating down my leg, pain, numbness, tingling, you know, probably slipped disc, probably sciatic, something like that. He's like, can we work on that? So we're working on that. And I will say, Dan, because you asked me before we started and I.

[B]

Was holding out till we got on air.

[C]

I'm a little bit better. I do have days where there is zero pain. And yeah, let's unpack that because something, something's moving, something's shifting. Isn't it right now that we've, we've tempted the audience enough? Welcome to the show.

[A]

Thank you so much. You explained all that so well. I actually need to go back to something. I, I like how you explain this little story. So I'm going to learn from you here. Thank you for the intro. Thank you for playing. I have a suggestion, which is my health story because sometimes it helps people to understand. Well, how did you get there? Might help pull them in. Because all we're trying to do is really convince people that maybe there's some things to think about here that might help them. So I'm going to try and talk right.

[C]

And the fact you're not, you're not. And I want to preface your story too with you're not doing this to make money. I mean, I'm going to encourage you to build a practice and build an option for people to work with you like I did. But you're on here literally sharing this to help other people. This is not your main business. You, you invest, you, you build houses, you, you do real estate. You do all the things in like.

[B]

The business money making world.

[C]

You're not in the health world per se, except for your story. So I wanted to preface that so people aren't thinking like, oh, here we go, then he's going to sell me into a program. No, literally, this is just to help you.

[A]

I just want to sell an idea.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Okay, well, thank you for that preface.

[C]

Give us your story.

[A]

Okay, so my story is probably quite common. Mainstream. I wanted to get healthier as a young adult, which you can tell by the gray hair is a while ago. And I went mainstream. I followed mainstream advice. So I would run long distances and I would eat pasta and carb load and be low fat because those are the things that are good for you. That's, you know, the mainstream narrative. And I could run a really long way and I looked like shit and I felt like shit and I always had belly ache and didn't really associate the fact that pizza and pasta and loafer ice cream was probably a cause. And I fell into a question mark over all of it, say about 12 years ago, started to discover what low carb was. Kind of intrigued by it, experimented a little bit, started to understand a bit more about whole foods, but then discovered what you'd call real mainstream low carb. Keto. Let's say a decade ago and I just started self testing and I just started eating differently and noticed my health transform. And by the way, I'm not down for any one doctrine over food. It's not specifically that I'm a keto person. I think a lot of people should be, at least temporarily, we can come back to that. But I noticed like fat drops and muscle grows and I'm sleeping deeper and I need less sleep and my muscles don't hurt anymore and, and, and, and it's blowing my mind. So I started researching why is this even happening? I'm just intrigued. And I read the book A Big Fat Surprise and Big Fat Surprise helped me understand where this idea that meat's bad for you and saturated fat is bad for you and fat clog your arteries is somewhere it came from and for right here, right now, it's really, really simple. Yes, we all sound like conspiracy theorists, but really, people listening to your podcast are already moved past that. It was money manipulation and a load of falsehood that created this idea. And the next 60 years was built on that falseness. So once you dig into that and discover, oh, if that's not true, I wonder what else might not be true. And I went looking. And over the next few years, I would experiment. So I would question mainstream exercise or the idea that salt is bad for you. By the way, if you have no salt, you die immediately. Or the idea that the sun causes skin cancer, I mean, really blunt and say, I don't believe it does at all. And I'll actually preface everything I say. Everything I say should start with the phrase I believe. And I think it actually should in almost all science. I used to tell my kids, when you go to school, the teachers won't say this, but I want you to pretend that other than in the math class and maybe language classes, they start off every lesson saying, what I'm about to teach you is to the best of our knowledge today, actually school. So 30 years ago. And I might be wrong. And it's interesting. So much is claimed to be fact around science, and yet I think hardly any of it is. We have to take all the information we can pull it all together and form an opinion, because it always is an opinion anyway. I keep chipping away and chipping away and everything I look into, I start to conclude, really interesting. If I just do the exact opposite of all mainstream health advice, I end up getting really healthy. And it shouldn't be that ridiculous, but it actually is that ridiculous. Literally go and find everything and just think well, what would the opposite of that be? Do that and you almost guaranteed to be really healthy. So my health transforms over a number of years and I go down that rabbit hole and I get really good at this shit. And it's taken me a long time to be relaxed and self aware enough to say, I'm really good at this shit. And the thing that I'm really, really good at is I'm not the number one expert in any one thing. So you're an absolute expert within a field. And lots of people are way smarter than me in their tight field. The thing I might be the best at is the breadth of knowledge. So over time I've gone across all of what I would call physical health, whether it be nutrition or supplements or exercise or muscle or toxins, sun exposure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and built a really wide knowledge and started to be able to piece it together because so often it's all too narrow. You know, the, the muscle person will think it's all about muscle, the nutrition person will think it's all about diet. And, and, and, and you know what? In the nicest possible way, it never is. We need the expertise. Oh, you really need help in that area. Go get the muscle building help, go get the thyroid help. Great. But we still have to pull back to this big picture and see how it's all interconnected. So, okay, so I'm the health guru and I'm doing all the right stuff, and I would put myself in the top, whatever, few percent of doing all the right stuff. And then a couple of times I nearly died and I actually ended up with a horrendous autoimmune disease. I'm thinking, shit, now we've got major imposter syndrome here, because I'm clearly missing something. So I'm doing the DNA tests and all the deep stuff and there'll be some methylated something or other that isn't quite right, and I've not found that tiny thing. And I got obsessed by trying to work out why, if I'm doing all the right things, I'm not actually constantly in peak health, why did I nearly die? Why did I end up with an autoimmune disease? And I caught myself thinking about obsession and the fact that obsession itself is probably not a very healthy thing. And I think that obsession is another word for addiction. Anyway, so I have that tendency, let's say, and I did some work about three years ago on shifting that. So I worked really, really hard at becoming passionate about health, whether it's my own or other people's. I think passion is only good. I think obsession has downsides to it. So I made that shift, but I still kept chipping away until I was hit with this autoimmune disease. It's called complex regional pain syndrome. It's horrendous. You don't really know to know the deep need to know the details. Just know it's really nasty. And it is quite perversely nicknamed within the community of people that have it the suicide disease, because that's how bad it gets for people. So it's not a fun thing to have.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I no longer have it now. It's supposedly incurable, actually. We don't know what causes it, and it can't be cured. I think I know exactly what causes it, and I've cured it, and not only once. I've helped somebody else cure it, one of my own children. Interesting.

[C]

Okay, so wait, what are the symptoms of this disease so people can really understand the.

[A]

The complex regional pain syndrome usually comes on as a weird after effect. Someone's had a traditional injury. You broke your leg, or you sprained something, or you had a surgery and you nearly recovered. Say you're four, six, eight, ten weeks later, and suddenly. So either something happens or just randomly out of the blue, an extreme pain appears in the sight of wherever that. Whatever that thing was. And that pain has been officially categorized as the highest pain a human can experience. And for most people, it's 24, 7 constant pain, which is why it ends up being a really horrific thing for people. And eventually some people draw a line and say, I can't do this anymore. And I get shivers because less for me, but having witnessed one of my own children go through that and thank God to come out the other side of it. Yeah, really gets me.

[C]

So did you experience that pain like before you.

[A]

I. I had the intermittent version, which is less common. So for me, it would happen and it only lasts two or three days. It would vanish and it would randomly reappear again a week or a month later. So I went through the roller coaster of parts, but it was the same thing. So I'm about to see an alternative specialist that specializes in that. That helps cure one of my kids. And I come across some teachings of John Swano, as you have mentioned, who wrote about something called tms, the Mind Body Syndrome. And I almost don't want to get into the nitty gritty. I want to stick to the biggest picture. But this guy wrote some books in the 70s. He was a neck and back surgeon, very traditional. Come in. Oh, you've got a prolapse disc. That's why your back hurts. Let's do a surgery. Great. He started to notice some weird patterns. He would address the supposed injured thing, faulty thing in that person. And a lot of the time they get better, then get worse, even though the thing was physically fixed, supposedly. Then he started to notice that just as many people would come in and not have a clear physical ailment in an area, yet they were feeling it. And then he noticed there's plenty of people walking around in public with this supposed slipped, this prolapsis, whatever else it might be, with no pain whatsoever. And he started to notice a pattern in the people or the people's stories and just came up with this theory that maybe there's an emotional piece here. And he started to talk to people. So he broke the rules of most doctors and surgeons and actually spent time really talking to people. And he talked to them a lot about their lives and them and so on. And he found a pattern. And the pattern was that nearly all of these people were holding onto whether they knew it or not, because it was often deep unconscious stuff holding onto some kind of pain, emotion, trauma, rage, whatever you want to call it, doesn't really matter from earlier in life, usually childhood. And once they started to address that stuff, weirdly, these physical things would go away. Whether there was a physically visible slit disc on an X ray or not, people could recover. So he got really intrigued by this. Then he went deeper again and started to notice this wasn't just about pain, wasn't just about necks and backs. It was about anything chronic. Chronic simply meaning long lasting. So once you've gone past the. Well, I broke my arm, so it hurts for a few weeks. Sure. And it's in a plaster and it's in a cast and it's all being sorted. Fair enough. It's two years later, my arm still hurts. No, the bones repaired, it's done. Yeah, but that's where you broke your arm. Mainstream medicine would say. And we can see on an X ray, you know, there's some weird tissue that's developed and you can see. So it must be that he discovered that was not the case. So my story went like this. A few days after an explosive pain managed to be in my ankle with this complex regional pain syndrome. And I'm reading some of the work of Dr. Sarno and I'm reading about this very type A personality that tends to experience it more than others, which is why I thought of you and commonly people who look after themselves actually who do a lot of the right health stuff and yet have these situations. And how often it's psychosomatic. Psychosomatic not meaning imagined, which is what I used to think it meant, but meaning a physical manifestation of emotional pain that something emotionally is making the thing physically happen. And I get halfway through one of his books, and he actually talks about complex regional pain syndrome. And all the way through the book, he's been describing me. I'm thinking, this guy's written a book about me, and I've never even met him, and he's not even alive anymore. How did he do that all the way through? I'm reading about me, and I'm reading about my, you know, obsessive compulsive, busy brain, all the symptoms of me. And I see you nodding, and I know you know I'm talking about you too. And then he mentions my specific autoimmune disease. And he talks about the fact that if there's no good reason for it now, and it's chronic, there's no true real issue. Maybe it's coming from your emotions. And I sat there and thought, hmm, it is the only thing that makes sense. I've been the health super guru for nearly a decade. I do all the right stuff. I've been searching for a long time for the missing link. Why do I have these major incidences? Why did I end up in hospital having had a stroke? Why? I know, why now? Have I got this autoimmune disease? Maybe the thing I'm missing is emotions. And I've had that sense for a while. I talked about obsession, okay? So I look down at my ankle. I'm thinking, everything he's saying makes sense. And the biggest thing he was saying was we all have emotional pain. And people might often refer to big T and little T trauma, which I'd actually like us to not. I get why people do so. Big T is the scary shit you read about in the paper and go, oh, my God, I can't believe that person went through that. It's awful. Little T is what? Well, you know, your mum said something when you were five, or your dad, this. It did this when you were 8. And it sort of had an imprint, but it's not that big a deal. Irrelevant to you, age five or, uh, eight, when you locked that thing in. That was trauma. There's no grades of. It was trauma. And it's in your unconscious, and it's programmed and led your life, your beliefs, ever since. So the idea is that the unconscious has all these buried things in there. And the conscious, unconscious mind sometimes detects that this stuff is bubbling up. And he goes, oh, shit. He will not be able to cope with the pain of that memory of that emotion. I have to distract him. So I will cause a physical pain or an illness or a disease or an ailment to distract. Of course. That's what works. Imagine burning agony in your ankle. You're not thinking about your emotions anymore other than the emotion of, oh, my God, this is horrendous. So I'm sat there thinking it's the only thing left that makes any sense. Okay, I've got a gym at home. I think I'll go and work out and I'll take it easy. And I'm walking to my gym and I thought, no, if I take it easy, I'm telling my unconscious. I don't really believe it really is just mumbo jumbo. So I need to prove to myself I believe that this is the only thing left. So I go in the gym and I do a very leg focused workout because my issue is in my ankle as heavy as I can. And I start working out, get five minutes in, and I get a twinge in the ankle. Now, up until then, for the previous year, that twinge meant you've got about three or four minutes to get to the sofa, and that's where you'll be for two days in agony, crying. That's how bad it was. And I look at the, you know, the mirror in the gym and look back at my ankle, and I just politely said, and I apologize for language. You can always bleep me out. So I just politely said, fuck off. And it stopped. And I smiled and carried on working out. And then five minutes later, it twinged again. And I looked down at my ankle and I said, you know what? I'm okay, thank you. And it went away. And that's three years ago.

[C]

That's. It never came back.

[A]

That was. It never came back. So at first there's the, oh, my. Then there was the, okay, what's next? I'm gonna have to keep reading. So I read book after book after book in that whole world. So the Joe Dispenza type stuff and the Gabor Mate stuff and lots of other works from Joe, John Sarno and other people that have kind of taken on his work since his passing. And I'm reading, reading, reading. And then over a month, I started to be like, hang on a minute from all my distance running 15 years ago, I've got I was told and said to myself, osteoarthritis in my big toes. They don't bend properly. They literally don't. You can see it on an X ray. So mainstream medicine would say, it must be true. And I looked down and went, my toes still move. Why would they still hurt after all these years? I don't buy it. I slip my sneakers on and I run down the street like a crazy person, like Phoebe and friends like a. And I'm absolutely fine with no pain in my toes anymore. Never had it since. And that's when it really clicked. So I started to guide other people and start to talk to other people about their pain, their ailment. I know somebody was going to have his entire shoulder replaced. We had a conversation, he read some books and now he's fine and just kept going. So now I'm at this really simplistic point where I go, okay, there's two things that cause all chronic pain, illness and disease. Only ever two is either lifestyle, which has to split into three things. It's nutrition, movement, and what I generally call living more naturally. Sun versus artificial light, fresh air, toxins, et cetera. It's emotions, and it can be conscious emotions, the things we say to ourselves, but more commonly it's the unconscious. It's the stuff underneath that we don't even know is happening. And that's it. And you have to handle them both. So now I couldn't out think or out of emotion, eating McDonald's and Twinkies every day and sitting on my ass, you know, scrolling doom scrolling, watching blue screens. Got to address that stuff. But you can address that stuff all day long. And if you don't take care of your heart and soul, then something could easily be missing and going horribly wrong. I love it.

[C]

I love it. So you have to address I. I know what is going through the audience's head right now. Yeah, we're going, but, but dot, dot, dot. But I have a diagnosis. But I have, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so even. We'll definitely unpack that. But even for you, Dan, after you basically, you know, told your pain to off and you moved on, did you have any moments in time over the last three years where, you know, that little logic voice starts chirping away and going, yeah, but then you have this autoimmune condition to which there is no cure. You know, the pain's gonna come back at some point in time, or you have injured your toe over the years, you have osteoarthritis that's bound to flare up and create pain again. Like, did you have that little voice that was trying to, to talk? I'll, I'll use air.

[A]

It's a great, great question. And considering that up until this part of the journey, I was the lifestyle health geek, so I know more than everybody combined and I know it all. And I can see all in some of the logic and the science and all the stuff. You would think so, but I guess it's how I've chosen to use the logic, because logic says I did all that and it didn't fully work and I got to grips with my emotions and it did. So logic says the that must be true. Now science might say, oh, give me a double blind placebo meta analysis study. I'm like, no, sorry. Just because that's not easy to do and easy to prove doesn't make it wrong. And the evidence is in the sample of 1, which then is 2 and is 10, and is a hundred, is a thousand and probably millions of people around the world that have had these experiences and eventually you go, are you telling me we understand everything about human beings or ever will? I'm pretty sure we're way too complex for that. The stuff that we don't get. So it's my choice to say I will submit or surrender to the idea that I can't know it all, that the more I learn, the better. But actually, funnily enough, the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. So it's weird. I know more than ever before, but the gap to all of it, I think, keeps moving further away. And I'm okay with that. That just keeps me wanting to learn every morning. So I'm like, no, and I'll forget sometimes I need to reword that. Not I will forget. I have sometimes forgotten that this is the case. So a physical thing might pop up and it might catch me off guard and it might take me some time to go. Hang on a minute. This has popped up a few times. This has been a while now. Wait, this won't be physical. This thing will be something else. So, for example, seasonal allergies. I live in Austin, Texas. Cedar fever capital of the world. We're so proud of this. We will all suffer together with cedar fever makes us very special. So it's very, very easy for my brain to go, I need to keep working on keeping him preoccupied with shit. So every December, January, when the cedar pollen count shoots up, let's get his nose running. Let's get his eyes itching and everything else. And If I forget, I could go weeks suffering like everybody else is suffering. And everyone's telling me, allergy season, it's happening. The messaging is there confirming it. A man conscious is going, yes, he is falling for this hook, line and sinker until I stop and go, hang on a minute. I don't buy this. There's no reason I should have allergies because on the physical side, I think I own allergies extremely well. We should be able to cope with allergens, no problem. The reason we tend not to be able to these days is because there's too many other toxins and allergens in the way. So our system is kind of almost full cuz of all the crap that's going on in our lives. Then heavy pollen kicks in and we overload. What should be happening is I should be running at a much lower level. When pollen counts go up, I should still be okay. It's why no other animal other than domestic, domesticated animals have problem with pollen. So if I know that that's logically true, I should be able to overcome it. And I guess what usually either there and then that moment or over a few days of self work, I clear those allergies away by working on my emotions.

[C]

Okay, all right. I'm grasping it more as you talk. So for the listeners, it's not as simple though as just talking to yourself and saying, no, go away. As allergies go away, pain go away, it's much deeper, but yet it's not love that.

[A]

So, okay, this is perfect. So here's what Sano found and then I'll give you my layer on top because I think he passed away before he could go as far as I think he would have eventually gone. What he found was that actually often was that simple, that he would talk through the ideas, the principles, that your buried emotions from childhood are in some way causing this physical ailment. And he'll prove it to you by showing you why this physical thing, there's no good reason that physical thing should actually be causing the problem it causes. And they'd go to an event, read a couple of books and listen to some tapes because it was those days or whatever else. And approximately 8 out of 10 people like me with my CRPs would actually remove their symptoms without even knowing what the thing was that happened when they were five years old.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Two out of ten didn't. So they would have to go deeper, go into the therapy and do that self work. I was left with a concern which I now want to address. And I, as I say, I think he passed away too soon to have gone this far. I'm left with the concern thinking, hmm, if I don't go and do the work to work out what was the buried emotion, the rage, the trauma, whatever else it might be, is there a chance that I've handled this for now, and it'll come back and get me in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years? And I didn't like that. I didn't sit well. So I thought, it's worth doing the work anyway. So I did the work. I did the self worth therapy, nlp, all sorts of different methodologies, and I can go into that if needed. I did the self work to discover, ah, that's my shit, that when I was one and that when I was three, and that when I was six, right, I'll do the work to kind of reprogram how I see all of that, make peace with that, make little Daniel whole again and let him know he's safe and so on. I went through those stages, actually. A bunch of other minor ailments cleared up, which I wasn't even thinking about, and just realized afterwards they went away. But that, for me was the safest thing. Let me go really, really deep, because I think if Sano had lived another 10, 20, 30 years, he might have noticed people reappearing 20 years later with new problems. So I think one doesn't have to do the work up front, but I think once 8 out of 10 people have the immediate success, I would love to say, okay, that was like the magic pill, but we want to make sure you're okay. Long run. Let's come back to. It doesn't have to be today, but in a week or a month or a year. Let's do come back to this, because you can always find what the answer is. And I think that's the safest way overall.

[C]

So John Sarno literally says in his book that just kind of coming back to what you just said, Daniel, that you don't have to dig deep, you do not have to go into psychotherapy. Like you said, maybe there's that 20% that do 2 out of 10. But I guess my question is there's a lot of people out there that don't want to rehash or that literally don't know. Like, if you asked me, like, okay, you know, what was your trauma or what happened to you at one or three, I don't know. I don't know. I can't even think about what would be tied to the Pain in my back that comes and goes. Right. So the nice thing about this that I want to point out for people is you don't have to, you don't have to know and you don't have to go into psychotherapy.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

So just go ahead and click that.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah. And if people read a few books and listen to this a few times over and listen to some other podcasts and so on, maybe we don't know the exact numbers, but maybe by eight out of ten of them might actually just have their breakthrough just because they believe in the principle that this is coming from their own emotions. So it's been, it's a physical manifestation of emotional pain. And if people can believe that 8 out of 10 times, they can have a breakthrough. I'm just throwing in this extra layer. So I'm. I guess I'm speaking to that person's unconscious right now, locking this in and saying, just remember, go get the breakthrough. And then maybe because you're so grateful for the breakthrough, you might be kind to yourself and say, I'm willing to actually do the rest of the work to then find out what was really going on. Because it's just my theory. I just have that little concern. If we don't, then whatever the thing was, pops back up again 10, 20 years later in a way that we could have potentially avoided completely. That's my theory. So it's worth going there, but you don't have to go there on day one.

[C]

Right, Right. And I love that. Love that. So I just made it through the the Mind Body Prescription by John Sarno. I know there are many other books you and I even talked about Steve Ozanich, who our dear friend Joe Polish has interviewed, that he wrote a book. He was kind of like a predecessor, looked into Sarnis's work. It helped him tremendously. So he also wrote a book. So there's. There's a decent amount of books out there and more information than I plan on diving more into. But I'll start with, you know, how far I am in my journey. So just read through the My Body Prescription the first time. As you are reading or listening to this book, you will hear Dr. Sarno say, I recommend that you, as soon as you get to the end, you go back to the beginning and you start all over again and do listen to the book or read the book multiple, multiple, multiple times for it literally to sink in. Now it blows me away. In this day and age where everybody has a program, everybody is selling something, this is the only. I'll use the term therapy loosely. This is the only protocol therapy, something thought process out there where there's not someone on the other side saying, I'm the gatekeeper, give me your money, and then I'll walk you through how to do this. You literally just have to read or listen to a book multiple times for this to set in. So I made it through, and like I said, I'm starting to notice, like, little shifts and little things that he says in the book. Dan really hit home for me. And this is even something that Karen and I talked about last weekend, the fact that people do have, you know, on X rays, his patients, even back in the 70s. There were visual slip discs, you know, damaged vertebrae, pinched nerve. There was physical problems apparent on a. On an X ray, on an mri. And his whole thing is, yeah, we all have those issues, but not everyone's pain. And that's something that kept circling through my mind when the pain would come back, I go, given there are a lot of people out there with this same. Whatever the issue is. I don't even know. I just guess whatever the issue is in my back, there's a lot of people out there with it. Like, I do have scoliosis. I know that part. A lot of people with scoliosis that aren't in pain. I haven't been in pain until, you know, the age of 51. So, yeah, I mean, is it really real or is it coming from something else now? I haven't dug deep to attach the point at which it started nine months ago and what was happening and anything like that, because I don't think it's important. I'm just trying to really get embed those concepts of, no, there are other people with the same physical appearance.

[A]

And the scoliosis is a great example because you will see somebody with a very extreme one are, you know, the kind of person where they actually are looking at the ground usually most of the time, because it's so extreme. You've seen that now and again.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And he discovered. And I've met people and I've never registered it before who have that and they have no pain whatsoever. So if. If we're going to move away from the emotion and just look at the logic and that's the power of this, and say, well, if that person can be like curved like that to an extreme degree and in no pain, it's not a given. I would argue it's not a fact. It's a fact that it's not a fact that having an exaggerated curvature in the spine should equal pain. Because if it doesn't for them, then why does it for the next person? Along with a much more minor issue. Right. Interesting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you looked at an X ray of my ankle when I had complex regional pain syndrome, you saw all sorts of stuff, soft tissue damage, you would see this extreme swelling. There was this weird mottling on the skin all around the ankle. It's there, it's real. Yeah. My brain's very, very clever. It's way. My own conscious is way smarter than me. It had one job to do. Its job was to protect me. And it believed incorrectly because we've evolved really quickly and Our unconscious hasn't caught up. It believed it was protecting me by creating this issue, this distraction, this warning of something, however you want to word it, and it will put it somewhere that makes sense, that's believable. Which is then the bit that makes you go, okay, now we're getting a bit. Of course it'll go where it's believable. You have a car crash and everybody says to you, well, you might feel fine today, but watch out, in a few days time there might be whiplash. And then what are we all expecting? And the brain goes, oh, we need a new thing to be the distraction thing. Perfect, we've got whiplash now. And I think it was in the book, there was this study done. Is it maybe Norway or Sweden somewhere? I think in Scandinavia doesn't have a word for whiplash. And weirdly, the incidence of whatever you would call whiplash or the symptoms post a car accident are not even a tenth of the level of the rest of the world. Why? Because they're not aware of it. The programming wasn't there, so the unconscious doesn't even know to go there. And that's where they get the logic kicks into saying, sorry, this is just true whether you like it or not.

[C]

I know, I love that. And it's. It's examples like that that really make you step back and think through this and get out that little voice that goes but, but, but.

[A]

And.

[C]

And tries to pull you back into that thinking process that we're all in. I mean, we're. We're all in the same thinking process right now. Unless you can break out of it, unless you do learn from these books and look at your pain, disease, whatever it is, in a different light.

[A]

And this might seem like a tangent, but if you give me just a minute or two, I think I can show why this is unbelievably important. So I think I started very early on saying, I have this very simplistic model that I describe, but there's only two causes of all, chronic pain, disease and illness. Almost all that's. There's always a 1% outlier. Let's just leave that out for now. But almost always it's lifestyle or emotions or both. And I think what causes a major problem these days is diagnoses, because I think a diagnosis in itself creates the problem. So I think most diagnosis shouldn't exist. And I want to preface this with anyone listening, because a lot of listeners will have things they have been diagnosed with. And I want to make the point that I both sympathize and empathize with whatever your symptoms are. The thing that doesn't make you feel as good as you would like to, or the scary thing or whatever it might be. Believe me, I feel that. Been there myself, been there with loved ones, I get it. But the diagnosis is sometimes hugely misleading because what it does, it puts things in a box. I mean, in mainstream medicine, it gives you a medical code. So now we can claim on insurance. Great. But even in, let's call our world alternative health, it still creates a box. And something that hit me about four or five years ago was a realization. If you said to me, I'd like to minimize my risk of cancer, I'd like to minimize my risk of heartburn. I'd like to minimize my risk of diabetes, like to minimize my risk of Alzheimer's. Small, big. I'd like to minimize my risk of a skin issue. You know, pick anything as big or small. I realized the list of things I would tell people to do and not do was the same list every time. Or if somebody came to me and said, God forbid, I've got one of these things, no matter if it's as minor as a skin issue or as major as the big C or whatever else it might be, what should I do? There's sometimes some specifics within the nuance of each thing, but 90% of it was the same stuff. I'm like, hang on. If the same things prevent or fix each thing, doesn't that mean that each thing is just a symptom? And that's why I argue that muscle pain or heartburn or cancer or diabetes or Alzheimer's or skin issues and just keep going, literally almost name the thing is a symptom, not a diagnosis. It's a symptom. And some people get it worse than others or some of them just come before others. So high blood pressure tends to mean in 20 years time, you're going to have a lot of other much bigger issues. That's just more of an early warning. One bit of issue with heartburn or skin issues tends to mean much bigger things are going to happen in 20 years. It's not the thing itself. It's just a progression or sometimes just random. Maybe that's where genetics do come in. That, oh, that person was more predisposed for it to being a brain thing. Next person, it was more of a gastro thing. Next person was more of a big C thing. But still, the root causes are always the same. So I've got a WhatsApp group going with like a hundred and something people in it that I'm just randomly coaching here and there all the time, answering health questions, et cetera. And the number of times people come with a diagnosis or the next magic pill that they want to take. Which version of this should I take? Which device here? And it's like this self style thing of biohackers. And I keep lovingly telling everybody actually before I tell them, I say, tell me some basics. Tell me about an average day of nutrition, tell me about your movement each day and tell me about your core living more naturally, how much you in the sun throughout the day without sunglasses, without sunscreen, middle of the day without contact lenses, how are you of artificial light, how much do you manage blue light at night to key things and they tend to come back to me and I usually see a whole bunch of things that aren't right. I'm like, before you spend another $70 a month on this supplement or this device, whatever else, go eat some meat and get some sunshine and go lift some weights and stop doing this, this and this. And a number of times people go back and go, oh my God, I can't believe everything's fine. And it's rarely about the magic pill, it's about those base things. And it almost doesn't matter what the different symptoms are. I always end up giving people the same advice and it's all the same stuff. But all I was missing for a long time was the emotional piece is the same as well. It can come out in all these different ways. It might come out in heartburn, it might come out in cancer, it might come out big or small. It's the same principle. So you have to address the same things.

[C]

So is it, is it a placebo nocebo effect with tms or is that, are we kind of getting too far away from the core principles?

[A]

I don't think it's a placebo nocebo because the fact that you could potentially give me a tablet, tell me it was going to do a certain magical thing for me and they actually potentially do that thing for me. And yet you knew it was just an empty thing full of sand or something else. I think is the power of the conscious mind over the body less about the unconscious. And that's why I did say there's both conscious and unconscious in here.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So the self talk is enormous. We mustn't move away from that. So for example, you know, I can't remember exact words, but I quickly wrote down in your beautiful intro, I wrote down trying and a big X Next to it, you said something about trying to open your mind to all this or trying to digest it, et cetera. Yeah. So my brain went, so must come back to that. Because if you're trying, you can always be trying, and you're achieving the trying by constantly not actually doing a thing. So is it a dangerous word? So I caught that and I catch it myself sometimes. Like, what am I? Actually, I am opening my mind right now onto this way of thinking. It might seem really subtle, but it makes a difference because if I am opening my mind right now, that's true still, but my mind is opening now to these possibilities, and therefore I'm likely to move forward sooner. So the nuance around that, so that's where the conscious self sort of thing is huge. So you giving me that magic tablet, me believing and therefore telling my unconscious this thing is going to help me, my unconscious is only job is to do what I tell it. Its only job is homeostasis, balance. It can't discern the difference between a good instruction and a bad instruction. So it will just do what I tell it to do. So if I tell it this tablet's going to help me, it will actually work really, really hard at having my body do different things to make that tablet work, which is what a placebo actually then is.

[C]

Right? Exactly. No, I totally see what you're saying there. And I, I'm even thinking from a nocebo effect because people have a hard time with good. But man, we, we thrive when we hear bad and we tend to believe it. So isn't that what the news is based on? So from the nocebo effect, we have documented cases and Sarno actually refers to one in his book, I've heard this before as well, where I'll use his example that a woman firmly believe she was going to die. And I don't know the details around it, but I've heard other cases like this too. People believing, no, I know I have this disease, I am going to die, or I'm so fearful of dying. And they do, and then the autopsy shows there wasn't a problem or a gentleman that believed, no, I have this cancer, I had this tumor, it's going to kill me, it's going to kill me, it's going to kill me. And he dies and there's no tumor, there's no cancer. There is no explanation for these people dying, except they believed it so strongly that they made it happen in their body. Okay, so if we can do that on the negative, why can't we Grasp the concept of doing it for the positive. Why can't we grasp the fact that we can say off back pain, I'm done.

[A]

Like most case closed, we're 100 with you. I like why not? There's no good reason why not. And it's funny, we're drawn to the negative because that's just an evolutionary quirk to, you know, don't die, stay alive, don't get eaten, whatever else. And that's what we're drawn to. But we have to be mindful of it. I first learned about this stuff way before this journey. So this goes back 25 years to me, for me, where a friend taught me a lot about how the brain works. And it's just worth hanging on this for a second. So as I said, our unconscious will not be able to discern the difference between a good or bad instruction or something that serves you well or doesn't serve you well. It will do what you tell it. Its only job is keep you in balance. So my friend that taught me this stuff would refer to his uncle who was the I always lose my glasses guy. And therefore he always lost his glasses to the point where one day he's searching his house for two hours, as his wife says, they're on your face. Because that's how deeply he had to believe it. Because what your brain or your unconscious can't cope with is you being out of balance. So if you believe you're the lose your glasses person, you don't lose your glasses. That is dangerous, that's unbalanced. So I have to create the balance for you. Therefore, the lady he refers to in the book, I believe I'm going to die. Your unconscious goes, okay, I can't discern for you or guide you. That's not a very good idea. I will do all I can to make sure that comes true. Because then you're happy at some deep physiological or psychological level. Maybe it's both. A level maybe we'll never fully understand. My job is to keep you in balance and therefore I'm really sorry, but see ya. And that's what happens. Therefore, of course, the power of being able to reverse that. And that's where now the conscious is again so important, the self talk. If I believe you get the person who. Oh yeah, every winter I always get one bug. I'm really healthy all the time, but I always get one bug for one week. That always floors me, you know, every year before Christmas. Okay, then guess what's going to happen. Your responses will do all it possibly can to make that come true. If it doesn't, then you're going to feel a lot worse because you can't cope necessarily. The idea of, wait, I was fine. Oh, unless you then have the conversation with yourself around. I always believed I was the person that would get sick. But now logic tells me there's no reason for me to believe that. So now I believe that this year can be different. You can't lie in the mirror. And I think there's a lot of manifestation stuff that's really misleading. So someone's massively overweight and looks in the mirror and says over and over and over, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thin. Usually there's more harm than good because the unconscious is going, no, you're not. No, you're not. And now you're not. And now I'm out of balance. Now I've got a problem. If you say, I am working on becoming healthier every day right now, I am doing things to move me towards becoming healthier, slimmer, leaner, whatever else your brain go, cool, that's true. We're not lying about the past. We're not lying about right now. We're talking about the things that you're doing that's believable. Yeah, I'll help you do that. No problem. You can reprogram all of it.

[C]

Yeah. So the same thing. We can sit here and go, I'm not in pain.

[B]

I'm not in pain.

[C]

I'm not in pain. And that's not necessarily. That's not what we're talking about. TMS is not self talk. It's not manifesting. It's. It's something different that I can't. Can't even explain it. But it's just something different.

[A]

Yep. And it's coming from your unconscious and your unconscious is trying to do you a favor. It just gets a bit wrong, unfortunately. So we need to know better.

[C]

So I will admit it is very hard to describe the concept. I'm just going to tell everybody to read the book. And you kind of guided me. You said, start with the Mind Body Prescription. That's the. The OG Dr. John Sarno, and then move on. And what other books do you recommend, people?

[A]

The next one for me is Steve As Amic's shorter book. His Great Pain Deception book is huge. It's amazing. But it can be a barrier to entry. It's such a thing. And he wrote a really cute book that's about 50 pages and something like the top 10 learnings of Sarno. Or something like that. If you go on Amazon, it's his other book, literally 50 pages, and it does it all so well, but through somebody else's lens, a different kind of language that helps layer it on because it's a different person talking. Those two alone can be a huge leap forward. And then there's Facebook groups and there's podcasts and if you do some Googling, there's all sorts of people. Be careful because there will be plenty of people wanting to sell you the service. And I'm not saying that they can't necessarily. Like, I'm sure I could, if we wanted to sit down together and I could sell you an hour of whatever, I'm sure I could do a great job, but just be careful with that. I'll say that my view of mainstream therapy is I'm all for self work and having someone guide you through self work. I believe the majority of therapy is done slightly wrong because it's designed to keep you coming back week after week, for 50 minutes forever. And back to me you talked about earlier. Not everybody wants to go there, go all the way back. There are ways of going there that are very, very quick. And once you've gone there just far enough, you don't have to stay there. So the little bit of work in one great session with the right person that gets you to go. You know what, maybe it was that thing when I was five and that thing that my dad said that maybe I program in a certain way and. Okay, good. We don't now need to talk about that for the next three years. We've got enough of an insight there. We could teach right here, right now how to reintegrate. And I could take little 5 year old Daniel and make, make him know that he's safe and secure and so on, or come up with a whole bunch of tools, like a book like the Tools by Phil Stutz that's very practical in terms of now go do these things. Create the new mantras. Put that mantra, you know, in your phone that you read every single day, whatever it might be to reprogram how you see a thing and come out the other side. And I think most therapy should involve the therapist going, you done now? Let me know if you need me again. But off you go. So option is there. The challenge is finding that right person.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I love that. And I love your little warning of don't fall into traps, of giving away your money, because again, this is, this is the one concept that you will run across in the health and wellness space where you literally have to listen to a book. I mean, even back in the 70s, Sarno was like, you know, most people will just listen to this or come to a lecture or two, and they're fine. And it's like that just blows you away because you. You naturally think. I mean, whether it's psychotherapy, like you said, Dan, 50 minutes a week. Come on, keep coming back. PT, three times a week, chiropractic, one to three times a week.

[A]

Of mainstream, you know, physical health. So, okay, is it really complex and detailed?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And at the same time, don't eat any processed food. Eat lots of animals, especially red meat, eggs and wildfire. Take the following few supplements. There's only a few that everybody needs all the time. Majority and not needed all the time. Make sure your water's really clean. There you go. Nutrition done.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. It doesn't have to actually be any more complex. You didn't need a dietitian. You didn't need years and years of. You need some clear support, some clear guidance. Maybe the emotional piece of, how do I stick to a way of eating for the first few weeks till it becomes a habit? Maybe that was bigger. And then you're a couple of months in, you've got the right mindset, and then you can move on. So that's the simplification of this, I think you're referring to. It's the same with all of it. I love it. Simplify.

[C]

Yes. I love it. I love it. This has been great information. I know people are kind of like their minds might be swirling a little bit, but just re. Listen to this podcast. One other thing I'll add in. You mentioned Steve Ozanich, listening to his interview with Joe Polish. He gave his story, so I haven't read his book yet. But in talking about his story, I mean, we're talking years of pain. And then even Joe jumps in, who we all know and love, and he jumps in with his story of years of pain. And yeah, I'm going to have to have this surgery. I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and have this surgery. And that's really where I was at when I was talking with you is like, yeah, I know. They told me a long time ago that I'm going to have to have L5S1 fuse because it's resting, you know, on each other and it's probably going to pinch a disc and. And maybe for me, it's just that it's the doctors implanted in my head when I was 14 that, you know, you're going to have to have this fused one day. Okay. So my subconscious is like, one day you're going to need surgery. One day you're going to have to have surgery. And both of these guys, Steve and Joe, both avoided surgery with tms. So I really encourage people relisten to this podcast, listen to the books, read the books, and. And just keep an open mind, because if this can shift you, it can shift you. So if you keep an open mind, it will shift you. And your whole life and health and body and experience of this world improves just like that. Without expensive surgery, without another protocol, without another supplement, just like that. It's crazy. I know it's crazy. So, Daniel, will you tell people if they do want to jump into your WhatsApp group? And just like we talked about before, you're like, well, I'll just DM with people like you might get blown up if we offer that. But why don't you say where you're comfortable? People reaching out to you if they want to connect.

[A]

Thank you. On Instagram, my health account is the not doc, as in I'm not a doctor. So the not a doc, because I like to use that as a positive thing because maybe it gives me. I've not been influenced by the incorrect training. My real estate and our homes are healthy homes, so we've got my real estate one as well. But come to my health one, they're not a doc. Have a look at content and DM me, and I will do my best to respond in a useful way. And if someone needs a bit more than maybe jump into this WhatsApp group, whatever, and I do what I can, and I've got to balance it all the time because there's only so many people I can help, which is why I almost want to try and do more of this, because maybe I can help a hundred people or a thousand people in one conversation rather than one at a time. And whether it actually is physical or emotional, I can help with all of it. And that's the thing. It's most finding how it's all joined up. And people might again ask the question, well, does that mean the physical health stuff doesn't matter? No, it really, really matters. I am so passionate about why I do with my physical health all day, every day. It's just that that's only one side of it. The other side matters.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Oh, Daniel, thank you so much for coming on and unpacking a very complex but yet simple concept. I love the dichotomy here with tms. Yep, it really is. It's. It's complex, it's hard to wrap your mind around, but yet it's very, very simple and very effective. So I thank you for your time and the work that you're doing and thank you for reaching out to me all those months ago because it turns out that conversation has tremendously helped my life.

[A]

Awesome. You're so welcome.

[C]

Amazing. So you can find all of the resources down in the show notes where link to Daniel's Instagram down there and then again the My body prescription by Dr. John Sarno and then look up Steve Ozanich. He has two books, the little book that Daniel talked about and then the Great Pain Deception which I might dive into even though it's a beast, cuz why not? And then John Sarno also has another book about back pain specifically. I think I might dive into that one as well. So we'll put all that down in the show notes. So Daniel, thank you so much for your time today.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

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