B (2:12)

Oh, sorry. Yes, by all means, I apologize.

A (2:16)

Megan Basham has made it her entire personality in the last several years to attack any even conservative evangelical leader who has not supported Donald Trump.

B (2:27)

Yes.

A (2:28)

And has tried. She wrote a book called Shepherds for Sale where basically she was saying these quote unquote shepherds or pastors were for sale to this left drift that they all talk about. Basically that a lot of these institutional evangelicals like David French. Gosh, he hates David French.

B (2:48)

Yeah. Russell Moore.

A (2:50)

Russell. Yeah.

D (2:51)

Russell Moore.

B (2:52)

Russell Moore.

A (2:53)

Yeah. People who are actually still very conservative, but Just don't like Donald Trump. For obvious reasons, I think we could say. But she's accused them of basically being leftist shills who have sold their souls to radical Marxism. I don't know.

B (3:12)

But anyway, totally.

A (3:13)

So. But her. Pretty much her litmus test was whether or not they supported Donald Trump. Interestingly though, now, yes, she's trying to make it seem like she's never been MAGA and in fact was just voting for the lesser of two evils.

B (3:32)

But I actually had that tweet.

A (3:34)

Do you have that tweet?

B (3:35)

Yeah, I do. For a different video. Hold on. I have it here, actually. Okay, we pulled these tweets. Go ahead, April.

A (3:42)

Okay, so she pulled. Posted this a few days ago, last week maybe. And she said casting a vote is not a signal of someone's eternal devotion. It's just choosing the best available set of policies and personnel. That is it.

B (3:57)

Okay.

A (3:58)

But she literally makes it her. Like she will tell you, you cannot be a Christian and vote for a Democrat, despite what she just tweeted there. This one? Yeah, this one she tweeted last year in March of 2025. Now Meghan is now trying to distance herself, saying she's never been maga. Right, right.

B (4:17)

Because of Trump posting himself a picture of himself as Christ and many other reasons, yes.

A (4:22)

You mean as a doctor.

B (4:24)

Sorry, Dr. Fake News, Dr. God.

A (4:29)

So she tweeted this a year ago. Someday the men leading so many well known evangelical institutions and publications are going to pretend that they supported Trump all along. Because by then he will be revered. He will be as revered among conservatives as Reagan or Thatcher is to lose first.

B (4:47)

Oh, my God.

A (4:48)

He's not maga, though.

B (4:49)

No, not maga, guys.

A (4:50)

Never been maga.

B (4:51)

Maga. In fact, here's one more. Just so you know, it's her saying it out loud. I am not maga. But yes, I do believe Biden is evil because he has a platform of abortion on demand and mutilating children for the sake of trans ideology. Frankly, if you don't think that's evil, I don't actually believe you're a Christian. There you go.

A (5:09)

Right. So she's trying to distance herself of like, hey, we were all just voting for the lesser of two evils. But they would vote for Trump again tomorrow.

B (5:18)

Oh, my. Yes. If he gets. If he broke the Constitution and decided to run again, they would still vote for him. Not even a question.

E (5:27)

Right.

A (5:27)

Okay, let's get to this video because I am curious whether I did speed

B (5:31)

this up slightly because it's a longer video. We'll see how much we can get through before our time is up here. I think they're talking about James Talarico. So let's find out.

F (5:39)

Killer lunacy. And that's putting it as positively as I can of James Talarico. So folks who are listening who don't even know who that is, can you tell my audience who this fake Christian James Talarico is?

C (5:50)

Yeah. So, you know, as I've been covering a lot of the cultural aspects of politics over at the Daily Wire, one of the things I've noticed as we're shifting to the new, you know, midterms election is that in 2024, Christian nationalism was the big scare. Right. I mean, everyone's terrified of Christians living out their faith and actually feeling like they have to be salt and in the world and live out that commandment. So, you know, the left had been strongly attacking Christians doing that because for obvious reasons, they don't want the salt and the light.

B (6:16)

Wow.

A (6:19)

Right out the bat.

B (6:20)

I mean, it's like. It's like we had an insurrection with, you know, Christian flags and Jesus saves banners and prayers to Jesus, thanking him for the opportunity to take back the country. Yeah. There's. There's. Guys, our. Our. Me and April's alarm bell ringing for the past several years obviously is quite overblown. I mean, it's not like we're talking about potentially overturning or repealing the 19th amendment. Right. I mean, there's. It's like, come on, it's. Look at Trump. He's doing a great job. No. No fear. Nothing to be afraid of. Nothing at all.

A (6:51)

It's still wild that, like, this was posted within the last month.

B (6:56)

Yep.

A (6:57)

Knowing everything that has happened. We're in the war with Iran.

B (7:01)

Yep.

A (7:01)

That Trump started for no reason.

B (7:04)

Yep. And being like, in the Epstein files.

A (7:09)

The Epstein files. The way that we've completely demoralized and tortured immigrants, many of whom are also Christians.

B (7:19)

Yep.

A (7:19)

Like, they have the full knowledge of all of this. Basically, everything that you and I were warning about with a. A second Trump term has happened. And in many cases, it's been worse than we even were warning about.

B (7:34)

Agreed.

A (7:34)

And they're like, oh, there was a fear tactic.

B (7:37)

It was a fear tactic. Have you looked around? JD Vance is officially the most unpopular vice president in the history of America. Like, clearly, Megan, like, something is. You're not in touch with reality and the lived experience of most Americans. Clearly.

A (7:52)

Right. And I want to point out, too, just some little, like, educational Christian nationalist stuff. I would definitely. 100% categorize Megan Basham, both of these two actually, as Christian nationalists, they would fall into the camp of not being openly Christian nationalists in the same way that they are maga, but are trying to act like they are not maga. It's very similar to evangelicals that will swear to you up and down that they are not religious. Yes, they just have a relationship. It's just like, it's just fine wording, but they're still very much in that camp. And it is so disingenuous the way Christian nationalists, whether they claim that title or not, say, oh, people just don't want true Christians living out their faith. They just don't want the salt and the light. And it's. That is literally textbook Christian nationalist playbook where you equate their very narrow view of Christianity, which is a minority in the global church, as true Christianity, where they paint themselves as true Christians and it's authoritarianism.

B (8:56)

They're not asking to live out their faith in private. They are trying to take over the country and force everyone else to succumb to their will. They don't want gay people being allowed to have the same rights that they do. They think that black history shouldn't be taught in schools, which by the way, black history is American history. Trans people shouldn't exist. They think that women shouldn't have the right to vote. So their version of living out their faith is. Let me punch you in the head repeatedly. And when you say, al, stop complaining because you're infringing on my right to punch you in the face, I mean, that's what they're doing here.

A (9:24)

Right? Right. And that's the same thing that, where they claim that their rights are being taken away and that they're actually being persecuted, it's only when their right to persecute other people is taken away 100%.

B (9:35)

Well, we're off to a bang up start. Well, we're off to the races. All right, let's keep going.

C (9:40)

And so what I have seen probably over the last year around Talarico is a, is a little bit of a shift. They're still hitting Christian nationalism. And he in particular, as the Texas Senate candidate for the Democratic Party, is hitting that a lot. But they're also now trying to say that actually we're the real Christians, though. So instead of taking a hostile stance to Christianity, they're trying to say, you have been sold a fake Christianity and we're the real Christianity. And what the real Christianity contains, according to the left and James Talarico, is ideas like God Is non binary that.

B (10:10)

Well, hold on. Are you saying, Megan, that God doesn't have a penis or a vagina? Like, wow, mind blowing. I mean, why is that, like God is spirit? There's no, there's no embodied version of God that exists on this earth. This is shocking to Megan. One more thing I have to add here. This just shows either Megan's ignorance or her fundamentalism because the black church tradition, the progressive church tradition, mainline Protestant tradition, have existed for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years in response to white Christian authoritarianism. Okay. The fact that, that, that white progressives are being more outspoken about their faith is not a new thing at all. They've been outspoken for a long time, but people are picking up on it because what Christian nationalists have offered America sucks. They hate it. Most people do not like what Megan Basham and Eric Metaxas are selling. So they're finding a better, more inclusive oriented faith in politicians that they actually want to support. That's what's going on here.

A (11:18)

Yeah. Well, and I do think, because Christian nationalists are so. They have so much power currently through the Trump administration that I think people like James Talarico are realizing they don't own a monopoly on, on my faith. And I, and you and I have talked for a long time that the biggest kryptonite to Christian nationalism is the Bible. Is the actual red letters, the teachings of Jesus because it goes against the modern version we're seeing of Christian nationalists.

B (11:48)

Yeah. Just go read the Sermon on the Mount. Incompatible with these values.

A (11:52)

Yeah.

C (11:53)

Mary offered consent to the Lord and if she hadn't done that, God would have been okay with her aborting our Savior. So he's pro abortion. He's pro trans, actually.

F (12:02)

Now let's. We got to take one at a time here because this is so. I have not. I don't think I've commented on this on X or anything, but let's just, let's just start. Okay, first of all, what you said about the left really wanting to co opt Christianity, they don't. They don't openly say we worship Satan and we hate your savior. No, they pretend to be more Christian. So Hillary Clinton did this. Ladies and gentlemen, we're not joking. Hillary Clinton did this in attacking Ali Beth Stuckey in the Atlantic. I don't know, a month or so ago, whatever it was, it's that crazy. And there are people dumb enough, most of them probably watch CNN or Ms. Now. Who, who believe this. Okay.

B (12:37)

Of friends listening on the podcast. This is not a caricature. This is not AI this is how people in this space talk. They really think that, like, that we're all missing it. And they. They are just the truth tellers here. Hillary Clinton has been Christian for a long time, way before she wrote an article rightfully condemning Ali Stuckey. Okay. Like, I don't know what to tell them.

A (13:02)

Right. Ali Vestucky. If. I mean, if you watch our show, you know who she is. But she wrote the book Toxic Empathy.

B (13:08)

Can you imagine?

A (13:08)

In full disclosure, she made a post saying she believes Donald Trump, that he thought he was just a doctor in that picture.

B (13:18)

She did. She. And then she said, we just need more discernment, like, get out. And I think, by the way, this is an important distinction. Now, obviously, this recording from Megan and Eric was what was recorded before Trump did that. But looking at their post after, it's so interesting watching especially Meghan and Ali. So softball Donald Trump for posting himself as Jesus Christ, But James Talarico and the left are satanic and evil and vile because they have different political outworkings due to how they understand the Christian tradition.

A (13:52)

Right. And to her credit, Megan did condemn Trump for a minute for making that post. Yeah. For a hot minute, she would still vote for him.

B (14:01)

And then when Trump said it was he thought he was a doctor, she repeated that talking point on Twitter, so.

A (14:07)

Oh, I missed that one.

B (14:08)

No, she did. So, anyway, let's keep going.

F (14:11)

So in this inversion of Christian faith, they'll say anything. Okay, so Talarico was on some podcast, and this needs to be set up carefully because there's something diabolical, ladies and gentlemen, right. Where you're going to try to confuse people. It's not really clear what you're saying. So what he said. And, Megan, I'll let you describe it. Forgive me if I interrupt, but this is so. It's so key how he put it, because a lot of people were confused by it, and that was his intention.

C (14:39)

Right. So the way he has put it is that, okay, if you actually look at the scriptures, Jesus doesn't say anything about abortion, but we have the. The. The story of the angel coming to the Lord and telling Mary, you will become with child. And. And Talarico's really twisted way of framing that story is to say that God was asking for Mary's consent and that if Mary had said no and don't let it be done to me, then she could have had the option then to have an abortion.

F (15:06)

Now, actually, see, that's not how I read it. This.

B (15:09)

Yeah. You want to comment on this? On this?

A (15:11)

Take so far, just based on how she described that to me, that doesn't mean she'd have an abortion. That means that. That she just wouldn't be impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

B (15:20)

Also, by the way, if we're going to go here, what is worse? The God of the universe impregnating a teenager without her consent or reading the narrative that Mary could have given consent? What is a more ethical reading of that text?

A (15:35)

I'm just saying I don't even understand what they're harping on.

B (15:39)

Right. What are you defending here? Okay, keep going, guys. Keep rambling me where I find the

F (15:44)

diabolical character of this, right? We all know that the angel. That God is not going to force Mary. So an angel appears and says, basically, you know, are you willing to. To do this? And of course, Mary, being Mary, says yes.

B (16:00)

Okay, isn't that the point that Megan just made a second ago? Like, what? You caught that, right? Like, Megan trying to make it seem like the big scare tactic is that James Tall said Mary could, you know, could have consented or not, and then Eric is essentially saying the same thing in his own language, and Megan's not. Am I missing that, April? Am I missing something here?

A (16:23)

Yeah, but she's framing it like the angel. If Mar said no, she could abort the baby. But I. I don't think she had the baby yet.

B (16:31)

Right, because if she said no, not an abortion, she wouldn't have been impregnated.

A (16:34)

Like, I don't know. I don't understand what they're talking about.

B (16:37)

And honestly, I don't want to keep saying the word impregnated. Like, I don't like that word.

F (16:42)

So that is about conception. It's not about, oh, there's a baby in your womb, you want to murder it or not. We don't really have an opinion. What do you think, Mary? We're not talking about a baby in the womb. There's no baby in the womb. There is nothing in the womb. There's some eggs that have not been fertilized. And so God, through the angel, is asking, mary, would you be willing to conceive? And that is the question. So Talarico twists it and acts somehow like God is asking, you know, do you want this baby to live or die? There is no baby. This is before there's a baby. So this kind of brings up the issue of, you know, how we get pregnant. And how we get pregnant involves something where you. You can. You can say, yes, I want to engage in that act, or, no, I Don't. But he doesn't go there. He just kind of doesn't.

B (17:28)

It doesn't always involve that, Eric. That's part of the problem, to be clear. But. Okay.

F (17:33)

Smears it over so that to confuse people as though there's a baby and the angel is asking Mary, okay, do you want to kill the baby? What do you think? I mean, that's basically how I read it.

C (17:42)

Maybe you have, right? Yes. But I mean, there's also just the lunacy of thinking that the God of the universe was like, on tenter hooks going, I wonder what she's going to say. Is she going to say, y. Come on.

F (17:52)

Right.

C (17:53)

So, I mean, there's a level of disrespect there. But as you look at James Tallarico's the.

A (17:57)

Okay, I just have to say I don't. I haven't seen the clip that they're talking about with James Tall Rico. So I don't know. I don't know if they are accurately saying what he said.

B (18:09)

Okay, I think we found it, but we're going to do a little bit. A little more rudimentary. April's going to play it through her phone. Go ahead.

D (18:16)

I say all this in context of abortion because before God comes over Mary and we have the incarnation, God asks, asks for Mary's consent, which is remarkable. The angel comes down and asks Mary if this is something she wants to do. And she says, if it is God's will, let it be done, let it happen. So to me, that is an affirmation in one of our most central stories, that creation has to be done with consent.

A (18:39)

First of all, his rendering.

B (18:41)

Okay, I don't see.

A (18:43)

I don't.

B (18:44)

I'm confused with the. Okay, I. Okay, I think the audience is smart enough to hear that and go, next point, because what else do you say to that? Like, you heard the clip from James. You heard how they're interpreting it. These are people who clearly think that Trump is doing the work of God. So why are we shocked? But that's really.

A (19:03)

I mean, I would say I don't. I do feel like maybe that's a. It's a stretch to take that story in support of abortion, but I don't think it's a stretch to take that in support of consent.

B (19:17)

And look, here's the thing. We. Everyone reads the Bible in a context. You read ours in our modern context. Right. Eric and Megan read the Bible through their lens, but they don't understand or won't acknowledge that they're also interpreting Scripture. I don't know if I would say that, you know, that, that, that this, that the story of Mary and the angel is a blatant case for consent, especially in the ancient world. I don't think that. I don't think that that's how it really worked. However, I understand that we're all interpreting the Bible. I don't think it's, like, heretical or like, you know, so such a crazy view, like how they're making it out to be. You know what I mean?

A (19:48)

Right, right, right. And if you. I don't think what he said is, like, egregious the way that they are. They're making it out. But it's also very rich coming from people who. I believe it was Ali Beth Stuckey said at one point that love thy neighbor didn't mean all your neighbors. It literally just means Christians. Like, the way that they ex, like, read the Bible to interpret and excuse, like, bullying and mean and hateful behavior is far worse than how they're trying to paint James Delarico right now.

B (20:18)

Eric suddenly cares about consent, yet he votes for a guy who doesn't care about consent. You know, like, okay, let's keep going.

C (20:27)

It's not just that he has abhorrent political views. He's. He's literally out on the campaign trail pretending that he is teaching theology, teaching doctrine to the masses. And it includes things like, you know, there are many ways to heaven, that there are all of these, you know, truth traditions. He said on the Ezra Klein show and that he respects all religions of love because they're all leading to the same place. Because Ezra Klein asked him, do you believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven? And Talarico's answer was, well, I believe all religions of love lead us to that same truth.

F (20:56)

Religions of love. There's. That's a. Called a neologism, ladies and gentlemen. Has anybody ever heard religions of love? I think he. Who maybe somebody in a Soros think tank came up with that. Like, what does that mean? Religion?

B (21:07)

Okay, really quick. James Tall Rico is. Either he has or he's currently getting his master's in theology at Austin Theological Seminary. So he knows what he's talking about. And there are Christian streams that have argued for what's called universal reconciliation. This is not outside of, like, the history of Christianity at all. Megan and Eric, obviously are hyper fundamentalists. They believe that not only is Christ the only way to not burn in hell forever, but their interpretation of the Christian faith is the only way not to burn in hell forever. So.

E (21:38)

Right.

B (21:38)

You know, it's, it's, yeah, it's wild watching them be so confident and such an ignorant, narrow take that honestly defies the laws of our reality. Like, because there are just too many questions that you have to, you have to be able to answer ethically for that to work out. Right.

A (21:55)

Well. And when your theology is based on excluding the vast majority of people, someone who has a actually loving and inclusive faith is a threat to your ideology.

B (22:06)

Yeah, 100%, clearly of love.

A (22:09)

Right.

C (22:10)

And that would be very likely because he does get a lot of funding from that direction. But what has been interesting to really

B (22:15)

quick, James Taylorico is very clear that he has not taken $1 from, from like corporate PAC money. So I don't know where she's getting the claim that he takes George Soros money, which I need to say that is usually a line for lightly veiled anti Semitism because George Soros is Jewish.

A (22:31)

Soros.

B (22:32)

What?

A (22:32)

Did she just say George Soros?

B (22:34)

Eric Metaxas did.

A (22:35)

Oh, okay, I missed that. Okay.

B (22:36)

He said Soros money. And then she said, well, he does, he does get money in that direction.

C (22:40)

So, and we talk about this a lot, and I'm about to bring up some of the usual suspects, but the way his candidacy is being propped up and hailed by those who today to this day claim to be conservative Christians at Christianity Today, the Holy Post, and David French of the New York Times.

B (22:56)

You called it, April.

A (22:57)

I called it.

B (22:58)

You called it.

A (22:59)

I called it. To be clear, the people she's railing against right now are conservatives.

B (23:05)

Yeah.

A (23:06)

They just do not like Trump. And that is her litmus test.

B (23:09)

Yes. As we've said, 100, 100%. There it is, friends. These are like, like pretty much pro life, non affirming, theological. Some of them are like very much pro Israel Christian evangelicals.

A (23:22)

Right.

B (23:22)

And for Megan, they are like leftist Marxists.

A (23:24)

Right. And honestly, this is a clear example of Christian nationalism too, because she is complaining, conflating conservative theological beliefs that people like David French and Russell Moore absolutely hold to with conservative identity politics, which today is just MAGA.

B (23:41)

100%. 100%.

E (23:47)

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenuevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

G (24:58)

Hi, my name is Mary and I'm from Nashville, Tennessee and I'm a monthly donor to the new Evangelicals. I'm really thankful for the work they're doing and I think that there is a really important job to continue. That's why I offer my support. Between the pandemic, Donald Trump, the dehumanization of the LGBTQ community, I just think we really need to reevaluate what we're doing as a church, as evangelicals, as new Evangelicals. So, yeah, glad to be a part of this community and love the work.

B (25:43)

All right, let's keep going.

C (25:44)

What I have been watching is what seems like if it's not formally coordinated, they at least talk a lot so that they're all on the same page and how they are trying to sell the Talarico candidacy candidacy to their Christian audiences who frankly, unfortunately a lot of them do still include real trusting Christians who don't understand the bill of goods that they're being sold. So, you know, I kind of watched this unfold and I went, I don't know if it's coordinated, but certainly they're all on the same talking points.

B (26:09)

One of my favorite things about Megan is that she says things with absolutely no evidence and then she doesn't acknowledge that the right does that all the time. Like literally if you look up Twitter, Ali's statement about Trump and needing discernment was was parroted by three or four other major influencers almost word for word. I mean, not exactly. Not exactly, but it was the same talking points like we the word woke was a coordinated word that that the right got on the same page with to reinvent as a catch all for anything liberal like this is what the right does all the time is a

A (26:44)

huge lack of self awareness.

B (26:46)

And by the way Even let's say her claim was true. That. That. That. That the left, whoever that is, is doing that. What's the problem if your side does it too? Is. Is it only wrong if one side does it? Like, I. What. What's the point you're trying to make here, Megan? Like, what's the freaking point? Who cares?

C (27:03)

So if you go back to January, Christianity Today put out a podcast episode talking about the candidacy of this rank heretic. Of course, they didn't call him a rank heretic. Instead, what we heard from Mike Kosper, Russell Moore, and Bonnie Christian at Christianity Today was that James Talarico is presenting a refreshing face of Christianity that is much more recognizably Christian than what they have seen from Maga.

B (27:29)

So, yes.

A (27:31)

Which is all true. What? Someone who actually like Jesus.

B (27:36)

Wait, are you saying, Megan, that there's a Christian politician out there who reads welcome the immigrant from Jesus and goes, you know what? We should do that in a safe way? And you think that's, like, heretical? Help me understand how putting kids in cages, how killing unarmed civilians in the streets. Right. Help me understand how that is a Jesus ethic. Help me understand how Trump embodies Jesus teachings and James Tallerico, the rank heretic, is selling a false bill of goods to his audience. Like, help me understand that.

A (28:12)

And I think there. There's a clear difference between, like, James Talarico. I've seen clips of him where he's genuinely trying to reach MAGA Christians and, like, Christians on the right to try to pull them in. Like, hey, we all love Jesus. We all want to love our neighbors. Like, he. He has a big tent approach. And I don't think he would exclude people like Megan from being Christian, but these people exclude everybody that's not in their camp of being Christian.

B (28:42)

Yep, 100%. 100%. God is insufferable.

C (28:45)

This was. And at no point in that podcast did they mention that Talarico has heretical views. He doesn't believe that Jesus is the only way to. To heaven. They didn't mention his stance on the trans issue, that he believes God is non binary.

B (28:59)

They first look at her bugging out like, her. Like, she can't. She's, like, almost short circuiting. That a Christian can hold views that aren't like hers.

A (29:08)

That's a big question. I love James Talarika. Oh, my God, he makes him so mad.

B (29:12)

And you know what it is? He's so kind. Like, he. Like, he's not like us. You and me are like, we're going to Fire right back. He's like, I love even my enemies because that's what Christ taught us to do. And I'm like, I wish I can be like you more and more, James, but unfortunately I'm not wired like you

A (29:29)

kill him with kindness.

B (29:30)

No, he really does.

A (29:31)

Yeah.

B (29:32)

God, like, by the way, I'm sorry I had to be nitpicky here. Any legitimate, even conservative scholar will tell you the goal of the Bible is not about heaven. The goal is not heaven. It's about a new earth. Like, even that view of when you die, you go to heaven is not what really, like a healthy biblical take. It's just so infuriating to watch Megan sell this theology as like true orthodox, the only right way to believe when it's just so new. It's so. It's such evangelical theology. Okay, sorry, Ender.

F (30:04)

That, yeah, like, that's hilariously stupid. That's so stupid. I mean, I want to talk about that more than anything. What, what a dopey, dopey thing to say that most average Americans would just laugh at that. What does that even, what does that even mean?

B (30:15)

What?

F (30:15)

When Jesus was on earth, I believe he was pretty much a man and, you know, not whatever. And when he referred to his Father in heaven, that wasn't, you know, a figure of speech only. I mean, he could have said anything. But he said abba, Father. I mean, again, you know, we can have all kinds of conversations about this, but for somebody to just boldly state that God is non binary. I don't even think God acknowledges the concept of non binary.

B (30:41)

Okay, well, in Genesis, God made male and female in their image, male and female in their. Like God, obviously, if, if men and women, if we're using it in that term in the traditional sense, were made in God's image, then God has to have both of those energies, right? The masculine and, and, and the divine feminine. So God would be really not either one gender, because we all come from God. Not complicated. Not complicated.

F (31:12)

Non binary is a made up lunatic term. But it's out there enough. And he feels somehow the freedom to throw this out there, I guess. What is that a political calculation, I assume.

C (31:23)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a way of trying to baptize evil ideology on the left as some sort of form of Christianity is what I think it is. I think it's a way of saying, hey, we can be Christians too. Even if we're going to reject everything that God says about male and female, he made them. You knew me in my mother's Womb. I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me. So these are the things that Talarico has expressly denied out on the campaign trail. And yet you have Christianity Today podcast doesn't mention any of those things. It just mentions that. Actually that's not true. It did mention the thing about there are many ways that, you know, these are religions of love and they all get to the same truth. They didn't call it heresy, Eric. What they did was they said that it was just sort of a weak answer. Like they thought he just, he didn't give the best answer to that. That was how that was framed. And so then you flash forward this month, David French then put out an essay in the New York Times where just like Christianity Today, he said that this is a decent and Christian witness for the public, a refreshingly decent Christian witness that all of these MAGA Christians, as he puts it, would look at Talarico's example and feel shamed by how Christian this man is.

B (32:29)

It sounds about right.

A (32:30)

Oh, sorry.

B (32:31)

No, you're good.

A (32:33)

The self awareness is lacking again here because they're. So far they've only mentioned God is non binary and the abortion topic, which is their main thing because they, that's like their main issues. But they're completely ignoring what they found so refreshing about James Talarico. And that is quoting Jesus, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me. And what you do to the least of these, you do to me. The caring of the immigrants, the caring of the marginalized people, the big tent of we are all one human body. We, we all have the same struggles. We are more alike than we are different. Like the, the, the actual like message is love. And that is what people are finding refreshing. But no, they are only harping on God is non binary. And that the way they're twisting that abortion story.

B (33:27)

And they hate the idea that maybe more people are going to end up in heaven than they expect. Like they hate the, than even the thought that maybe when Jesus said I'm the way, the truth and the life, that didn't mean you have to be a white conservative evangelical to go to heaven. Like they just hate that thought that maybe ancient Jewish Jesus wasn't talking about modern inventions of heaven and hell as we understand it today. Like no, impossible, impossible.

A (33:54)

And I really do believe that is part of this, this really far right Christian ideology. They white knuckled their faith so hard. We're like, we're right, we're right, we're right. And all of you are going to pay for it one day. And like, that's what makes them somewhat, somewhat happy in this life where they are just like, like, and you and I come from this world.

B (34:16)

Yes.

A (34:16)

And you don't realize when you're in it how exhausting this way of life is. The mental gymnastics you constantly are dealing with, the cognitive dissonance that you hold every single day. Of course, you don't realize it until you leave it behind, but it's exhausting and it is truly a miserable way to live. But I felt similar when I looked at a queer person living their best life and seeming genuinely happy. I would have to convince myself that it's just pleasure and sin for a season and they'll get theirs one day. Like literally, that is. That's why they have to believe in hell so much, because it's the only thing that gets them going every day and keep going of like, well, one day I'll be in heaven and they won't.

B (35:03)

I really can't believe that I thought it was ethical and moral and logical for a God to create the entire world and then create the most narrow version ever of a path that only allowed some people to experience eternity and happiness. And the rest were all damned to hell simply because of how they were born, their geographical location, their cultural context, religious tradition. They're going to get. They're going to die and God's going to go, sorry, you didn't pray the right prayer. You didn't say the right words and pull the lever and they're going to burn in hell forever. Like, think about that. Obviously we have to. Those things cannot all coincide. Either God is a moral monster and Megan and Eric Metaxas hit the cosmological jackpot, or maybe the interpretation of everyone but us is going to hell and isn't the take that you think it is.

A (35:50)

Right. And they're also completely ignoring that there is an actual biblical interpretation for universalist salvation.

B (35:56)

Yes.

A (35:57)

Like, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. Jesus Christ is Lord, for I will reconcile all men to myself.

B (36:03)

All. All died in Adam, all will be raised again in Christ Jesus. Yes. I mean, if people want a really good, non even progressive Christian take on this, go read the book by David Bentley Hart. He's an Eastern Orthodox theologian who wrote a book about universal reconciliation. So this is not even like a progressive take. There are other Christian traditions that would not be labeled white progressive that hold views like this. It's not heretical, it's not the most common, but it's not heretical and that

A (36:31)

is actually good news. And if you have that belief, you can hold to the idea that God loves us all unconditionally.

B (36:38)

Yes.

A (36:39)

Because those two ideas actually coexist and make sense.

B (36:44)

But they. They need to feel vengeful and hateful because that's ultimately what their hearts are. They are vengeful, hateful people.

A (36:50)

They're just mean.

B (36:51)

They're mean.

F (36:52)

I just think Talarico should get a wedgie in the public square.

C (36:55)

But, you know, that's because that's your maga Christianity.

F (36:58)

We don't do that anymore. That's Maga Christianity. We'll be right back talking to Megan Basham, Patriots.

A (37:02)

Oh, but they're not maga today.

F (37:03)

I want to tell you.

B (37:04)

Okay, we're going to fast forward through. There's his stupid ad. Oh, my gosh, he's selling crypto. The taxes. He's selling crypto. I'm sorry, I did not see that coming. Talk about a grift. Metaxas, by the way. Oh, you know what? I have a book by Eric Britaxis. Hold on. Pause. Okay, really quick. April, April, April. Okay, so I actually have. See, I do read things, folks. Okay? Every now and then I read a book by someone I don't like. Someone gave me this book, Letter to the American Church by Eric Metaxas. Let me just read you a one like segment from this book, and I'm not even gonna qualify it. I'm just gonna read it and I'll let you in the audience respond. Here we go. He's talking about Nazi Germany. They could not believe that the Nazis were devotedly anti Christian and that they were essentially atheists and pagan tribalists working to eventually obliterate the Christian church. A mostly willful ignorance of these things. This is they meaning. The church blithely went along with the general mood of the time, feeling that was the safest course. Many churches hung Nazi banners and flags outside their churches and even inside their sanctuaries. It was a small but significant departure from the idea of displaying the German flag, which any German church happily would have done before this time. But healthy patriotism was no longer enough. So hanging the swastika, what was called the crooked cross may be seen as the virtuous virtual signal virtue signaling of that time. It may also be plausibly compared to the to when, well meaning churches today display rainbow banners or BLM flags, most of them, quote, know not what they do and are only trying to show solidarity with those they have deemed somehow disenfranchised. He compares churches Hanging Nazi flags in Nazi Germany to churches today with bl, BLM and LGBTQ plus flags. There you go.

E (39:01)

Oh,

A (39:04)

what a guy. What does one even. That's so stupid. Yeah, maybe Eric is the one who needs a wow. Wedgie.

B (39:13)

I had nothing to say here. I'm just. Yeah, like, how. How crazy. You know what, Peop. Our audience is smart. We don't need to over explain things. I'm just gonna keep moving on.

A (39:23)

You could. Yeah.

F (39:24)

And hold. Helping true American patriots build impressive wealth in Trump's historic economic boom.

B (39:28)

There's a reason the ad Trump's. Okay, I gotta fast forward.

A (39:33)

I'm sorry. This was a recent video.

B (39:35)

Yeah, this is 12 days ago.

A (39:36)

He's talking about Trump's historic economic boom. Is the economic boom in the room

B (39:42)

with US Gas up over a dollar a gallon. Okay, keep going.

F (39:45)

Welcome back. We're talking to Megan Basham. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, I have Megan Basham as my guest today. So, Megan, you know, you just brought up the uncomfortable topic of the person of David French. It's like he was made up like he's a fictional character because he's become so preposterous. I mean, I remember as a favor to a friend, I kind of debated David French for my friend Gabe Lyons. He goes, well, you have a conversation with. And this was back in 2020, and I gave David French the benefit of the doubt. I thought, oh, you know, he's my brother in Christ and we'll have a conversation. But even then I just thought, he's crackers. He's imagining that Biden isn't going to try to destroy the country or that Biden isn't a corpse animated by dark Marxist forces who are just going to manipulate this dopey, doddering figure who just wants to be president and kind of pretending like evil doesn't exist. And the only thing we can really know is that Trump is evil.

B (40:48)

I cannot believe what I'm hearing from this man. He's serious.

A (40:54)

They have such delusions about Joe Biden.

B (40:57)

This is Trump derangement syndrome. Like, they have Trump derangement syndrome. Okay? Biden wants to destroy the country. Biden increased the military.

A (41:06)

We already know what happened in Biden's presidency. He did not destroy the country.

B (41:12)

Crime did fall consistently. Okay? Keeps falling under Trump, but it's been falling. Biden, by the way, is very much a moderate. He. And he. He gave the military more money. I wasn't a fan of that at all. So, like, what are you talking about, dude? He had the. What was it? What was It. The build back better plan that helped infrastructure like. What are you talking about? You know what, you know what destroys the country? When you're. When your House leader, Mike Johnson refuses to renew Affordable Care act subsidies for millions of Americans. That will destroy the country. That will absolutely. You know what else destroys this country? When your own president decides to sue the government that he's in charge of for $10 billion of taxpayer money. That would destroy the country. You know what else destroys the country? When your president is all over the Jeffrey Epstein files and lies about it profusely and also has a credible allegation by a woman who says that she was assaulted by Trump when she was 13. Yeah. That might destroy the country, I don't think. An old white man, Joe Biden, you know, I wouldn't say that he was great. I wasn't a huge fan, but my God, at least he held the bleeding Jesus. It's delusional how they say this.

A (42:17)

He wished everyone happy Trans day of visibility on Easter. I literally still see that. I'm like, you idiot. Same trans day of visibility is always on March 31st. Yeah, Easter moves. I don't know how to talk to these people. All right, good idea to defeat Trump.

F (42:39)

And I, I'm just fascinated by how these people can still find audiences who will take them at their word that they are somehow conservative or somehow Christian. I mean, at what point does that become meaningless?

C (42:53)

Right? And I. A part of what has been so insidious about what seems to be, like I said, if it's not coordinated, they're at least all on the same page and they're talking points, is that they are all treating so Christianity today. Holy post, Phil Bisher, VeggieTales, David French. They are treating Talarico as a Christian brother when everything about his beliefs should compel us to loudly say, regardless of, you know, whether you like, like Donald Trump or not, we should be compelled as Christians to say, this is not a Christian man. Nothing about his doctrine demonstrates that. This is someone I can credibly call a brother. And they're not doing that. Instead, they are very much trying to not just sell him as a Christian, but sell him as a better Christian than your average ordinary evangelical who voted for Donald Trump. So I think.

B (43:31)

Okay, really quick. This is actually a great example of how Megan and Eric have created their new. Their own orthodoxy. Right? So essentially, here's the thing. A lot of times people will say, well, you know, there's certain core beliefs that you have to have to be a Christian. And let's just take that and say, okay. Usually it's like, you know, the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, the trinity, things like that. All things. As far as I know, James Tall would affirm he is an orthodox Christian by most standards today, no doubt. But because his politics are different, because he has a pro choice position, not a pro life position that Megan has, because he is affirming of our queer neighbors and doesn't hate them, he's automatically not a true biblical Christian and therefore not one of them. They've created, literally, they've created their own rules for who is in, who is out. They're actually proving how they're not even orthodox themselves.

A (44:28)

Right.

B (44:29)

Oh, my gosh.

A (44:31)

They also just aren't listening to his position either, because he has. He went on the Holy Post, I don't know, a month or two ago and explained his position on abortion, that he believes in lowering the abortion rate. And he was like, I think me and conservatives actually agree we want to lower the abortion rate. We. I just have a different opinion of how we do that. We do that with comprehensive sex education. We do that by offering affordable and free birth control and health care and livable wages and, you know, paid family leave. Like things that actually lower the abortion rate.

B (45:14)

Can we just press 1 minute?

A (45:16)

By the way, this is such an

B (45:17)

important piece that you highlighted here. April, you're totally correct. Abortion rates went up under Trump his first term, which again, I would love to know Eric and Megan's thoughts about that because in their mind, more children were killed under Trump then by their own logic. But notice how Talarico and by the way, he's gotten crap for this in progressive spaces. He always is willing to reach across the aisle. I've interviewed him twice. I've had the privilege before he blew up of interviewing him. And he told me how he worked with Republicans in the Texas legislator to get legislature to get certain things done. But notice how Eric and Megan are never gonna do that with James. They are not looking for the common ground. This is actually a great example of what you and I always say, that Christian nationalism is not here to compromise. They're not here to shake hands and try and find a better path forward for all their neighbors. Right. They are here to take over. And this is what it looks like because you are right if you want to actually lower abortion rates. We have data on what does that. We have actual studies that show abortion bans don't necessarily reduce abortion rates. Women often will look for them in other places, especially those who need them. Right. But, but when you, when you give access to contraceptives, reducing the amount of unplanned pregnancies, abortion rates go down. When you give livable wages, abortion rates go down. When you give affordable health care, abortion rates go down. All things that our country could do. We're spending a billion dollars a day for a nonsense war in Iran. Right. Trump wants to give our military a 42% budget increase next year. We have money, we can find the money. We just choose not to spend it on this stuff. So you're right. It's really frustrating watching these people pretend that they're somehow pro life, when in reality they're the ones with their policies creating a pro death culture.

A (46:56)

And I just want to point out too, abortion was on a three decade decline. Yes, it was before Donald Trump's first term, it's true. And then it reversed. And that is partly because one of Trump's policies, this is according to U.S. news and World Report, the domestic gag rule, which was a Trump era regulation that prohibited clinics that refer patients for abortion from receiving federal family planning funding under Title 10, quote, severely reduced the number of contraceptive clients served by the program. Basically, many people lost access to low cost contraception, which is birth control, which may have resulted in more unintended pregnancies and ultimately abortions.

B (47:39)

Yes, but, but for these Christians. Sorry, I'm interrupting you go ahead.

A (47:43)

Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say that this is another example of how white evangelicals, Christian nationalists, maga, Christians, whatever label you want to call them, they value lip service more than action. They don't care what you do as long as you say the right things, as long as you say you're pro life. We don't care if the abortion rate is actually lower. Because if you say you're pro choice, even if you lower the abortion rate, you're demonic because you say you're pro choice. Like the, the, the logic. And honestly, that was what shifted my position on abortion when I real. Because I realized this and I realized as someone who is pro life, that the most pro life position I can have is to actually be pro choice.

B (48:29)

Yes, yes, exactly. Oh, it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating watching these people pretend that they have the moral high ground, when in reality they're the ones who are destroying the country in every way, shape and form. Like Trump is gutting the country for his billionaire buddies. It's crazy.

C (48:45)

The really key things, because they repeatedly said he is so much more Christian than what we see coming out of maga. And the really dangerous thing I think we're seeing from Talarico is that when the Holy Post talked about it, they then put out this post saying he believes in Nicene Creeds. Or they basically said, all you need to be a Christian is to affirm the Nicene Creed. Well, Satan could affirm the Nicene Creed. That's not the issue. The issue is, do you have obedience to Christ? Do you have fruit in keeping with repentance? And of course, we see none of these things from Talarico.

B (49:13)

Okay, pause. This is what I'm talking about. They just. They just make stuff up. They just. I mean, Satan can also believe in Christ, right? So. So what does that mean? So, April, you and I talk about this a lot. This is the sleight of hand, right? On one hand, it's by grace that you're saved. It's not of your own works. On the other hand, he's not a real Christian because he doesn't follow our version of how we understand Christ. Okay, well, wait. Which is it? Like, is it the beliefs? Is it certain actions? What is it? Oh, it's your very narrow basement of the fundamentalism that we ought to all assimilate into or else we are not a true Christian. Go ahead, April. I can see that you're chomping at the bit.

A (49:51)

I just want to say this is another example of the complete lack of self awareness. Yes, because they are saying that they're basically. Hold on. I literally just lost my thought.

B (50:01)

We talk about. About how they say the teachings of Christ when in reality they don't follow the teachings of Christ. That's what I was going to say.

A (50:07)

Yes. I think that was what I was going to say.

B (50:09)

Well, maybe I had it really good

A (50:10)

in my brain and it left.

B (50:12)

I hate when that happens. I mean, look, Megan said it right. It's obedience to Christ is her words. Okay. Hey, Megan. Hey, Fair. I'm with you all the way. It's following what Christ taught us to do. Let's just go. I'm just gonna keep on scrolling. Here we go. The words of Christ in the book of Matthew, chapter 5, verse 3, the Beatitudes. The poor in spirit are blessed, for the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Those who are mourn are blessed, for they will be comforted. The gentle are blessed, for they will inherit the earth. For those who hunger and thirst for righteousness are blessed, for they will be filled. The merciful are blessed, for they will be shown mercy. I'm going to. I'm going to go down a little bit. Here you are. Salt of the Earth. But if the salt should lose its taste, how can it be made salty? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown up and shuffled by men. You are the light of the world. A city situated on a hill cannot be hidden. Don't assume that. Hold on. What's another one? I wanted to read here? I had a couple more that I pulled up. Here we go. You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, don't resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. Wow, that sounds like MAGA values, doesn't it, April? Doesn't it? Yum. Yeah. I mean, this is just what, hey, this is. Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people to be seen by them. Otherwise you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. That reminds me of the woman who painted Christ, who painted Trump with the blessing music behind her, you know, like, like, it's just. Yeah, you can't read these words and be like, this is what MAGA embodies. Just can't. Sorry.

C (51:52)

Okay, but that's the sleight of hand that we're seeing from, you know, these organizations who I believe and these figures are there to sort of launder left wing and Democratic talking points as somehow Christian. And it matters, Eric, because right now Talarico is polling one point ahead of Cornyn if he ends up being the Republican candidate, and two points ahead of Ken Paxton if he ends up being the Republican candidate.

B (52:14)

Do you have anything you want to add to Ken Paxton, April?

A (52:17)

Well. Oh, God. Ken Paxton is currently in a huge scandal for having an affair on his wife. And again, they would say Kit Baxter would be the more moral Christian choice because of his political positions, despite the fact that he cheated on his wife, which is something Jesus, you know, Jesus actually talks about. He's in the middle of going through a divorce. Jesus talks about that doesn't say anything about. I mean, James Alaric was saying Jesus didn't say anything about abortion is just true. It's just a true statement.

B (52:58)

Check statement.

A (52:59)

But I also want to say I can't remember what she said. I remember what I was going to say earlier where she was like, oh, they would just vote for him because he says he's Christian or blah, blah, blah. The. These. Oh, because she called him satanic. I don't know. But these people would literally vote for Satan if Satan came out and said he was pro life. I mean, and they practically have in Donald Trump. I mean, he's not the most Antichrist you can get in a human being.

B (53:34)

What do you think goes on in their brains? Like, what do you think? This, like the brain wiring. How has it been wired to see this as a coherent worldview that makes logical sense in the Christian tradition? I don't understand.

A (53:46)

It makes sense. The cognitive dissonance, again, it's exhausting to live this way. It's why they're all so tense. Gosh.

B (53:55)

Yeah, exactly. All right, let's keep going. We got a few more. A few minutes left here, so let's see how far we can get into this.

C (54:01)

So right now, I would say that this Persona, and I believe it's a false Persona that James Talarico is presenting does appear to be fooling and confusing some conservative Christians in Texas who must be willing to vote for him because, you know, that's a stronghold. That's an evangelical red state stronghold. So if Talarico is polling even neck and neck right now, that means you've got some voters out there who are believing this act. And when they see people like Christianity Today or David French or the Holy Post saying, hey, this is a strong Christian and you know, I may have some different beliefs than him and that's okay, but you should still vote for him. I mean, that that message is coming across and I don't feel that it's being combated strongly enough by conservative Christians who need to point out not just that he's a bad candidate, he's not a Christian.

A (54:42)

These are the same people that have been fooled into thinking Donald Trump is a Christian.

B (54:45)

Yeah, yeah. They believe Trump's obvious act. But James Tellarico is the fraud here. Guys, James Talarico is the one who's just. It's a whole facade. I've met him twice, once in person. I can tell you he's a different man behind the scenes. He's just crazy different. No, he's not. Of course he's not. Oh, again, this is a journalist. This is a hard hitting, truth telling journalist just making up claims with no evidence. No evidence. It's a facade.

F (55:13)

Okay, well, listen, you say conservative Christians, David French. I mean, it gets to a point where I'm not even willing to say they're Christians because if there is no fruit, you know, just this morning, my wife and I in our devotional together were reading in Luke where it's John the Baptist is saying, you brood of vipers. These are the most religious people of the time, you brood of vipers. You know, I don't see a fruit bearing with repentance. This idea. And again, this is this crummy evangelical

B (55:44)

idea that I'm gonna short circuit. April, I can't do it. I cannot, I can't do it. I'm done. I quit. I quit. No.

A (55:54)

How do these people read the gospels and never once consider the fact, like, am I the religious hypocrite that Jesus could be calling out?

B (56:03)

Am I the religious zealot putting unfair burdens on people that are not, you know, part of the tradition? Like, yes, Eric, you're so close. You're so. Wait, guys, I don't understand. Hold on, hold on. Help April. You, you help me because you are smarter than me. I, I, I, I concede. Help me understand what I'm missing. Eric, on one hand, says, these are not real Christians. Then on the other hand, he, he appeals to his devotional reading of Jesus, calling the religious elite a brood of vipers, applying it to the progressive, I guess fake Christians like Eric. You see the problem with that, right? Either they're Christians or they're not Christians. But you can't take what Jesus is doing to the religious elite, apply it to non Christians, and then call them Christians.

A (56:53)

Also. Jesus, when he calls out the religious hypocrites and leaders of his day, is calling them out when they're like, trying to enforce rules.

B (57:03)

Yes.

A (57:04)

That Jesus is breaking. Like they're the fundamentalists of Jesus's.

B (57:07)

Exactly, exactly. Christ broke the laws. Christ didn't follow the tradition all the way. He added on to sacred teachings.

A (57:16)

He welcomed people that the religious leaders didn't like him welcoming. That's why they got mad. Who does that sound like today?

B (57:23)

Oh, my God. It's right there. I think we're out of time for now. Maybe, maybe we'll do a part two because there's so much more to get to. We're only halfway through, but, I mean, this is one of the worst as far as cognitive distance. Like, it's right in front of them. It's right in front of them. They're reading the Bible. They're reading Jesus and going, those stupid progressive Christians. Jesus would have hated them, really, for trying to follow what he taught. Do you see, friends, what we have to deal with day in and day out? That's why we do this show. We, we carry our cross for you listening to this stuff.

A (58:01)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, we should do a part two. That'll be easy because we'll have two next week and.

B (58:05)

Oh, perfect.

A (58:06)

Yeah, let's do part one. Part two back to back.

B (58:08)

Love it. Friends, thanks so much for being here. If you're enjoying this video, if or if you enjoyed our commentary on this video, please like this video that you're watching right now and subscribe to the channel that would mean so much to us. If you're listening on podcast. Thank you. Please make sure to give this episode a rating and a review. We go live Every Thursday at 12:00 Clock Eastern on YouTube and on Substack via Lincoln Square Media. We will see you then. I think that's all I got. How about you? You good?

A (58:34)

Yep, I'm good.

B (58:35)

Sweet. Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

A (58:37)

I'm April Lajoy.

B (58:39)

See ya.

A (58:40)

Bye.