19. The Religious Right's Beginning: Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Religious Right's Beginning: Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Tim & April Show
• Host/Author: The New Evangelicals
• Description: Where we unravel faith, politics, and culture.
• Episode: 19. The Religious Right's Beginning: Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority
• Release Date: May 26, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 19 of The Tim & April Show, titled "The Religious Right's Beginning: Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority," hosts Tim and April delve deep into the origins and impact of the Religious Right in America, focusing primarily on the pivotal role played by Jerry Falwell Sr. The episode explores Falwell's transformation from a devout pastor to a formidable political activist, examining how his actions and rhetoric laid the groundwork for modern Christian nationalism.

Early Life and Ministry of Jerry Falwell Sr.

Jerry Falwell Sr.'s journey began in an unconventional household where his father and grandfather were atheists, while his mother was a devout Christian. This dichotomy shaped his early views, describing his upbringing as "a battleground between the forces of God and the powers of Satan" (06:37). Falwell's personal conversion occurred at age 18 in 1952 at Park Avenue Baptist Church, coinciding with his meeting future wife, Maila. Demonstrating his commitment to faith, he founded Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Virginia, in 1956, which grew from 35 to over 20,000 members by his passing in 2007.

Notable Quote:

"I'm Tim: Look at that. That was so great." (03:01)

The Rise of the Moral Majority

The 1970s marked a significant turning point for Falwell as he expanded his ministry's reach through media. In 1971, he established Lynchburg Baptist College, now Liberty University, and by the same year, he launched the nationally syndicated "Old Time Gospel Hour." This period saw the burgeoning of televangelism, with figures like Pat Robertson also gaining prominence.

In 1979, responding to the sociopolitical climate post-Roe v. Wade, Falwell co-founded the Moral Majority alongside Paul Weyrich, aiming to mobilize Christians to influence politics. Falwell articulated the need for a "Moral Majority" to counteract what he perceived as moral permissiveness and threats like Marxism (26:55).

Notable Quote:

"I was convinced that there was a Moral Majority out there among these more than 200 million Americans, sufficient in number to turn back the flood tide of moral permissiveness..." (26:55)

Political Rhetoric and Tactics

Falwell's rhetoric was instrumental in garnering support for the Moral Majority. He adeptly framed social issues such as abortion, traditional family values, and opposition to gay rights as fundamental to preserving American morality. The movement became a decisive voting bloc that significantly contributed to Ronald Reagan's election in 1980, cementing the Religious Right's influence in politics.

Notable Quote:

"These are just so weird. They're just such weird. Like, how can you be a Christian, a follower of Jesus and be like, you know what? We should advocate for the death penalty..." (30:11)

The hosts highlight Falwell's strategic shift from opposition to racial integration under the guise of religious freedom to focusing primarily on abortion and other social issues, which resonated with a large evangelical base.

Christian Nationalism and Its Consequences

Falwell's leadership in the Moral Majority paved the way for a potent blend of religion and politics, fostering a form of Christian nationalism that intertwined American identity with evangelical beliefs. The episode discusses how this ideology perpetuated discriminatory views and policies, particularly against marginalized groups such as the LGBTQ+ community.

Notable Quote:

"We believe that only those who trust the Lord are going to have access to heaven. If we didn't believe that, we'd be very hypocritical..." (63:50)

The hosts examine the long-term impacts of Falwell's rhetoric, including increased polarization and the marginalization of non-evangelical voices in public discourse. They also draw connections between Falwell's strategies and contemporary political movements, underscoring the enduring legacy of his actions.

Legacy of Jerry Falwell Sr.

Jerry Falwell Sr.'s legacy is multifaceted, encompassing both his contributions to evangelical growth and the deep-seated political divisions his initiatives fostered. While he disbanded the Moral Majority in 1989, declaring their mission accomplished, the foundations he laid continued to influence subsequent generations, including his son, Jerry Falwell Jr., and modern political figures.

Notable Quote:

"The same thing can be said for Charlie Kirk and these new generation of MAGA talk show hosts and influencers. They're way more radical than your Rush Limbaughs of the world." (68:54)

The hosts reflect on Falwell's personal integrity, contrasting him with his son, and discuss how the quest for power and influence may have corrupted the original spiritual intentions behind the movement.

Conclusion

Episode 19 of The Tim & April Show provides a comprehensive exploration of Jerry Falwell Sr.'s pivotal role in establishing the Religious Right through the Moral Majority. By tracing his journey from pastor to political powerhouse, Tim and April illuminate the intricate ways in which Falwell's beliefs and strategies have shaped American politics and society. The episode underscores the profound and lasting impact of Falwell's legacy on contemporary Christian nationalism and the broader cultural landscape.

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Notable Quote Timestamps:

• 03:01: Introduction of Jerry Falwell Sr. by Tim and April.
• 06:37: Falwell describes his upbringing as a spiritual battleground.
• 26:55: Falwell's vision for the Moral Majority.
• 30:11: Falwell criticizes the moral contradictions within Christian advocacy.
• 63:50: Discussion on exclusivity of salvation and love-based rhetoric.
• 68:54: Reflection on Falwell's influence on modern political figures.

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Time References:

• 03:01 to 70:12: Main content discussing Jerry Falwell Sr. and the Moral Majority.
• Advertisements and non-content sections have been excluded from this summary to focus solely on the episode's primary discussions.

Transcript

[April]

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[Tim]

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[April]

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[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

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[April]

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[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

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[Tim]

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[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

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[Tim]

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[April]

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[Tim]

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[April]

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[Tim]

You're listening to a new evangelicals product, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Greetings everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I'm April.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I'm Tim.

[Tim]

Look at that. That was so great.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Happy Monday. Fresh cup of blueberry coffee in my hand and I'm ready to talk about the one of the most notorious men who started all the nonsense that we're currently dealing with today, I'm prepared.

[Tim]

Oh, yeah. If Paula White was. We call her the first lady of Christian nationalism.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Then this man is the first man. Is that what he's gonna say?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Well, in honor of this episode, I'm wearing something from our brand new merch store. It says I commit sin. Sins of empathy. So take that, Moral majority, sinner. Boom.

[Tim]

What a sinner. Wow. Well, if you haven't guessed, which you probably have, because I'm sure it's in the title of this show we are going to be talking about. Yeah. And the thumbnail. We're going to be talking about the late Jerry Falwell senior. He was a household name. Like, I. I don't think I have any memories of not knowing who this man was. Did you grow up aware of Jerry Falwell?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I marched in the. In the right to life pro life rallies, you know, 100%. I definitely knew who Jerry Falwell was. Definitely. I mean, I feel like it's almost like a rite of passage for every white evangelical kid to at least consider going to Liberty University at some point in their college career. So.

[Tim]

Yeah, yeah, Liberty was a big one. Well, as I went. So I went to Regent University for grad school, which is also in Virginia, and as Pat R.O. robertson School. So it was like battle of the Televangelists and Regent. Like, they always talked about Liberty as our main rival, but to be honest, Liberty is way bigger than Regent. And I don't think Liberty thought about us at all.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I mean, I think now they are the biggest, like, definitely evangelical Christian school, if not the largest Christian school or college in America, if not in the world. I'm not sure they used, at one point they held that title because of their other online presence. But I mean, yeah, they're a powerhouse and a lot of right wing think tanks have come out of that. Like they had something called the. The Falkirk Center. It was a combination partnership between Jerry Falwell, I think Junior and Liberty and Charlie Kirk. So there's a lot that we'll get into with that in the future, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Tim]

Yeah. Okay. So you know what? I think we should just dive right in. I'm gonna give some biographical information about Jerry Falwell for those who might be interested. And then we're going to get into his Christian nationalism. And I mean, I mean, he's been super influential in what is now this modern Christian nationalism or just, just right wing conservatives, like the religious right. Like, I would say the religious right does not have the influence that it has without Jerry Falwell.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, for sure. This man is the bedrock of everything that we're seeing today. 100%. Everything that we are witnessing has been built on what this man did in his career, in my opinion.

[Tim]

Yeah. And I think the last few deep dives we've done have focused more on the charismatic sect of Christian nationalism, where Jerry Falwell is Baptist, not charismatic. So he's going to represent the non charismatic version of Christian nationalism. Classic. The classic kind.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, the classics.

[Tim]

So Jerry Falwell, he was actually raised where his dad and grandfather were atheists, and I didn't know that. And. But his mom was a devout Christian. And when he would talk about his upbringing, he described it as a battleground between the forces of God and the powers of Satan.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

That does sound kind of charismatic, though, just to be. To be clear, I mean, it's not.

[Tim]

Like Baptists don't believe in Satan.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

That's true.

[Tim]

They're not quite as woo woo about it.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Tim]

So Jerry Falwell did not become a Christian until he was 18 in 1952 at Park Avenue Baptist Church. He accepted Christ the same night he met his future wife. Mail. Also, this is a fun fact. He turned down the opportunity to play professional baseball.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Wow.

[Tim]

Yeah. Yeah, A little. Little athlete. So he went to. He went to Lynchburg College and then transferred to Baptist Bible College in Springfield Missour. He graduated in 1956. In that same year, he founded Thomas Road Baptist Church, which still exists today. It's a huge church. It started with 35 members, grew to over 20,000 by the time he passed away in 2007. And I mean, he started his church the classic way. He had a goal to knock on a hundred doors a day to ask people to come to his church. Obviously he's talking about that in the past tense. Who knows if it was actually 100 doors a day. But you know, he started. He was. He started going door too. Witnessing, inviting people to come to his church.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Saving souls for Jesus.

[Tim]

Yep. And so then that same year, he also started his radio show that would eventually become a television show too, that was nationally and internationally syndicated called the Old Time Gospel Hour. And I think you have a clip from this classic show.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I do.

[Tim]

See what it looked like.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, it's like a minute long. So here's, here's what it looked like.

[April]

It's time now for the Old Time Gospel Hour with Jerry Falwell, pastor of the Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg Virginia. We are not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation.

[Tim]

What are we looking at?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I don't know. I thought it was a jukebox at first.

[April]

Good morning and I welcome you to the morning service at the Thomas Road.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Baptist Church in Jerry Falwell, Virginia.

[April]

I'm Jerry Falwell, pastor here, and it's a real joy every Sunday morning over this station at this time to share with you our morning worship service, isn't it?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

There you go. So there you go clip there. Yeah. I mean, this was pretty revolutionary for the time, though. Jerry Falwell was part of that boom, right. Of, of the, of preachers and evangelists utilizing radio and TV to get the message out. And it was super successful. I mean, this is part of why the church grew the way that it did. Also, this is such a side note, but for some reason, and maybe it's just me, but this, this text here, the Old Time Gospel Hour, I don't know why, but it reminds me, this is so random of, you know, in Toy Story 2, like the, the, the like, like Woody's extended gang of characters. It reminds me of like that. Yeah. It reminds me of that vibe for some reason. I don't know why, but I don't. It just has that vibe of like old Western kind of, you know, like God, America, etc. So. Yeah.

[Tim]

Yeah. Well, Jesus and John Wayne, great book by Kristen Dumay does a good job of kind of connecting that kind of ruggish, manly, western saloon style of John Wayne with this Americanized version of Christianity.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So I, I mean, it, that, that would not surprise me if that was the vibe. He was going for success. Yeah. So he married his wife Maisel in 1958. They were married for 49 years when Jerry passed in 2007. And I will say.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Wait, you said when Jerry passed?

[Tim]

Yeah. Jerry Falwell died in 2007.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, sorry, I missed that part. Okay, gotcha.

[Tim]

Yeah. When he died, they had been married for 49 years and then she lived a few years later, but she's also now passed. And I do want to say, as a side note, we're going to play some clips that make. There's just some interesting. Jerry Falwell is not shy of controversy. He's got some controversy. He has said some very offensive things in his career. It was very Christian nationalist.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Although he would have not, I don't think he ever used that label. He would have said he was just being a good Christian, which is what a lot of them do. But to his credit, and I will give him credit, he founded the Moral Majority, which we'll get to, but he doesn't have any scandals like he. From. For everything that we know publicly, he was faithful to his wife, and he seemed to actually practice what he preached from whatever his moral standards were. So I will give him. I will give him that. Not to be confused with his son, Jerry Falwell Jr.

[April]

Right.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah. Which. That will be part two. We'll do a whole other video on that guy. I do, though I have heard from a few different sources as I was scouring the Internet, that one thing that he did do, though, was to get around the. The prohibition of alcohol is that he would drink an entire bottle of nyquil at times to make himself feel a certain way. So that I did read in some of the research. So I'm not saying that's like the world's biggest scandal, but as far as I. I know. I'm with you, April. He, you know, was faithful to his wife and wasn't doing what his son would later be found out to have been doing. Which we'll get into for a part two. But. Yeah, just.

[Tim]

Yeah, well, I haven't heard that about the. The N Situ. That. That sounds a little rumory, but maybe, who knows? Take that with what you will. So they had three children, as I just mentioned, they had Jerry Jr. Which we will gonna. We're gonna do a part two on Jerry Jr. Because he also was instrumental in modern. The modern version of Christian nationalism and especially giving power to Trump.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yep.

[Tim]

And then he had a daughter named Jenny or Jeannie and another son named Jonathan, who is now pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church.

[April]

Yep.

[Tim]

And so in 1971, he founded Lynchburg Baptist College, which is now known as Liberty University. And fun fact, my dad went to that school back when it was Lynchburg, played basketball there. Just a little side note, he's got some stories. And then in, let's see, 1971, they started beginning broadcasting services from his church nationally, which is kind of when he really started exploding in growth and people started recognizing the name Jerry Falwell. So I would say in the 70s is when he really starts to take off. But. And also it's at the same time in history where televangelism in general starts taking off with pat Robertson and 700 Club. Like, there's a lot of other things that. Praise the Lord. You have Jim Baker. Lots of things. Yeah, lots of things are happening at the same time. And then in 1979, he founds the Moral Majority So now I'm going to get into kind of. We're going to backtrack a little and go into the Christian nationalism of Jerry Falwell, which, if you. When you think about him now, it's hard to think about him in any way that's not political. Like his. His whole ministry was very political. But it's interesting, he did not start off that way. In fact, he actually started off preaching against Christians being involved politically. In 1964, he had a sermon called Ministers and Marchers. And for context of history, this is right in the middle of the civil rights movement, and Martin Luther King Jr. Is making speeches fighting for civil rights. And so he's. He's pretty much giving this sermon in response to this movement.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Right.

[Tim]

But so. And this is a direct quote, so this is from 1964. Jerry Falwell said, preachers are not called to be politicians, but soul winners. If as much effort could be put into winning people to Jesus across the land as is being exerted in the present civil rights movement, America would be turned upside down for God.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Wow.

[Tim]

And honestly. And that is something similar that you hear today when it comes, like, it's. It's so interesting when it's okay for Christians to be political and when it's not, because anytime you see Christians speaking out for racial justice or talking about systemic racism, then suddenly it's like, oh, no, racism is a heart issue, and Christians shouldn't get involved in that because only Jesus can save hearts. It's. It's still stuff you hear today.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah. When we were doing research for this episode, you and I both said how similar the rhetoric was from Jerry Falwell that we still hear today. And this is one of those things. Right. I mean, we can. I was taught that, you know, social justice, progressive Christianity is not biblical Christianity, and that we have to care about saving people from the depths of hell, that that's what matters most. As that same tradition became more and more politically radicalized and now has given us Trump and the entire MAGA movement. So it is interesting, right, because even here in the 1960s, we can see how the bedrock of Jerry Falwell and this ideology laid a foundation that all of the faith tradition that you and I were a part of was building on and giving us this really weird duality of save souls and don't be political unless it's around our culture war issues, then it's okay to be political. And here he is taking shots at MLK by using the very classic evangelical tactic of it's about the gospel the gospel is what matters. It's, it's, it is uncanny to witness.

[Tim]

They, they Jesus juke you only when it's convenient. Like, oh, politics, it's about winning souls. Because so as you know, when, when Falwell would give interviews throughout his life and people would ask him like, well, when did you get involved in politics? He would always claim that he changed his mind after the ruling on Roe vs. Wade, when the Supreme Court legalized abortion. But that's actually not historically accurate because Falwell did not preach his first sermon against abortion until five years after the Roe v. Wade ruling. So in 1978 was when he gave his first sermon against abortion. The ruling was in 1973. So, and honestly, we will probably, we have plans to do a deep dive on abortion.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tim]

Like how evangelicals changed their position on abortion because you know, if you grew up in this world, you just thought we were always vehemently against abortion. And to Catholics credit, they've been consistent on the issue.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yes, they have.

[Tim]

Evangelicals were not.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

No, but I always believed and was taught that Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority, that movement got started because of Roe v. Wade. Like that was, that was the linchpin that started all of this. It wasn't anything else. It was just abortion. Which is what led me to, at age 15, to march down Washington Avenue wherever it was in D.C. with my abortionist homicide T shirt, loud and proud.

[Tim]

So yeah, so what was the actual issue that, that got him into politics was on the Brown v. Board of Education, the 1954 decision, and the Civil Rights act of 1964. But the, so basically a lot of these people did not like that the government was telling them, was telling religious Christian white schools that they had to let black people attend their schools. And they didn't like that the government could enforce that and take away their tax exempt status. And so instead of framing it though as a racial issue, Jerry Falwell framed it as a religious freedom issue as, as a Christian persecution freedom. The government cannot come in and tell religious institutions what they can and cannot do because that is a violation of religious freedom.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Does that sound familiar?

[April]

Hello?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, I mean this is key and in fact there's a really good book, the Bible Told Them so by J. Russell Hawkins. I cited often that goes into the details of how in particular Southern evangelicals were the staunchest supporters of segregation. And when this court ruling happened, and more importantly, the federal government started enforcing it by mandating that public schools integrate because for a long time states weren't enforcing the decision, that's when you get Bob Jones from the founder of Bob Jones University and you get Jerry Falwell. That's when they start going from oh, just preach the gospel. Preachers aren't called to get involved in politics to oh no, our rights are under attack. The right to maintain white supremacy and white and segregation. Therefore now we have an obligation to maintain these so called biblical values, you know, and to fight for them in our government spirit. This is how this whole thing starts is over integration. Which is wild because I wasn't taught that.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Close my mind.

[Tim]

And to connect it to modern Christian nationalism, Jerry Falwell joined forces with Paul Weyrich who is the co founder of the Heritage Foundation. And the Heritage foundation is the group that penned Project 2025 that is now fueling our, the current Trump administration. So Falwell and Weyrick joined forces to fight the government on and the IRS on religious or integration. Right. So interestingly, Bob Jones, so the IRS since starts sending out these inquiries, right. To all these religious institutions basically saying, are you allowing African Americans to join your school? So Bob Jones in 1970 responded and was like, no, like kind of defiantly. They're like, no, we're not. What are you going to do about it?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Because the Bible's clear.

[Tim]

Yeah. And so, so this is where Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell defer is that Bob Jones tried to defend their stance biblically. Biblically. And Falwell, I think, and Wyrick, both of them kind of saw like we probably shouldn't defend racial segregation biblically, seeing that that may not be the popular move. And so that's what made it about religious freedom and not about racial segregation.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

That's right. Because they realized that it was falling out of vogue. Right. So like over time. And by the way, there's a whole other deep dive we can do here of how Jerry Falwell started. He, he was one of the main architects behind the private school explosion. You can actually track Brown v. Board of Education and state sponsored integration and the rise of private Christian schools that were white schools. Right. So they were just trying to reinvent ways to keep the status quo, AKA their white children away from black children. And so this is all in the mix. And you're right, Bob Jones goes the, this is biblical. This is our, our religious freedom route to be able to maintain segregation. But Paul Weyrich and, and Jerry follow, they go a different route. Trying to essentially sugarcoat, right, this, this language under, you know, biblical, not biblical values under, you know, religious freedom or or freedom of speech, or just freedom, some kind of freedom, you know, this is what America stands for, et cetera. But again, it was always over the right to maintain segregation in the U.S. in fact, I want to just read quickly a quote that I have. This is from Bob Jones. I, I pulled this from, let's see, from the Nation website. It's called the nation.com a quote here. Falwell launched on the warpath against civil rights four years after the Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision to, to desegregate public schools with a sermon titled segregation or Integration, which, and it says, quote, this is Bob, this is Jerry Falwell talking. If Chief Justice Warren and his associates had known God's word and had desired to do the Lord's will, I am quite confident 1954 decision would never have been made. Falwell boomed from his hit above his congregation at Lynchburg. The facilities should be separate, he said. When God has drawn a line of distinction, we should not attempt to cross that line. Falwell continues, the true Negro does not want integration. He realizes his potential is far better among his own race. And then he went on to say that integration will destroy our race eventually, at least in one northern city. So, yes, this is who, again, this is the architect behind the whole majority. He was very much in the camp, along with Bob Jones and many other segregationists that God has mandated and has ordered the world in a way where the races are to stay separate.

[Tim]

Yeah. But he did not stay in that, that camp because he quickly switched to making abortion the main issue and connecting it to modern Christian nationalism. Again, in our episode where we did a deep dive on the Seven Mountain Mandate, you might recognize the name Francis Schaeffer, who was one of the three. So you had Lauren Cunningham and Bill Bright, who had the seven who claimed they got a vision from God with the seven spheres of influence. Francis Schaeffer was the third person that they ran it by who also had a similar list, who was also one of the, I guess, original architects of what is now the Seven Mountain Mandate. Francis Schaeffer during this time produced a film series called Whatever Happened to the Human Race? And they went on a national tour where they would show the films, and these films were anti abortion films where they depicted abortion in very graphic terms. So this was kind of the first that we start seeing this really sensationalized view of abortion. And most notably was a scene of plastic baby dolls that were strown along the shores of the de Sea. And so Falwell was very influenced by Francis Schaeffer's war on abortion. And. And there was also just nationally at the time, a little bit of unease with the spike of legal abortions that people were seeing nationwide. And so they, you know, fall well, and. And others saw an opportunity. And like, great. This is. This is what we can use to rally Christians, because, I mean, who doesn't want to save babies? It's kind of the easiest moral, you know, thing they can get behind. Not to mention, Catholics had already been against it, too. So they. It was. It was kind of easier to join forces and to have bigger numbers. So this is when the Moral Majority comes into Play. Because in 1979, Paul Weyrich said to Falwell, quote, jerry, there is in America a Moral Majority that agrees about the basic issues, but they aren't organized. And so Jerry Falwell, that kind of sparked the idea. And in 1979, he founds the Moral Majority and he wrote, this is a quote from Falwell. He said, I was convinced that there was a Moral Majority out there among these more than 200 million Americans, sufficient in number to turn back the flood tide of moral permissiveness, family breakdown, and general capitulation to evil and to foreign policies such as Marxism, Leninism.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Does that sound familiar at all? Yeah, it's the same tune they've been singing since the. The 70s and 80s. It's wild to hear. Wow.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

So that's how it gets started, huh?

[Tim]

Yeah. And so he established that the Moral Majority would be pro life, it'd be pro traditional family, pro moral, because other people are not pro moral.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Right.

[Tim]

Pro American, and then also pro Israel.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Of course. Of course.

[Tim]

Yeah. So interesting, though, this is from the New York Times. He. He did have to apologize in 1999, because at one point he had said that the Antichrist was probably alive and would be in the form of a male Jew.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Right.

[Tim]

So he had to walk that back because he's pro Israel.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, of course.

[Tim]

And those are the same in this world.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So one goal for the Moral Majority, this is another quote. You want to get them saved, baptized, and registered, as in registered to vote. He started doing political rallies, telling followers, if a man stands by this book, holding up the Bible, vote for him. If he doesn't, don't.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

It really is interesting to hear how he talks and to hear how the spirit of these ideas live on in white evangelicalism all the time. I was told the same thing, you know, in New Jersey, in a small Baptist church, I mean, they would literally hold up a Bible. You know, this is what matters. Vote, vote. Biblical values. Of course, what they don't tell you is that there's, there's presuppositions behind what that means. Right. And they always tie back into cultural war issues. But it just is, you know, the more we, we talk about this, it's just wild to see that we're on the same carousel having the same conversations, combating the same rhetoric that has been going on for what, four or five decades now, if not longer.

[Tim]

Right. And we already know that when they say biblical values, it's a very cherry picked idea of what of which biblical values they're talking about. Yeah, so you have. So in 1980, which was Ronald Reagan, the Moral Majority is often credited for being one of the main influential voting blocks that elected Ronald Reagan. So this is kind of when the religious right becomes this powerful voting block that it is today was when Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980. So we have, we actually have a news clip. This is a news clip from 1980 that is talking about Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

All right, you ready?

[Tim]

Ready.

[April]

Moral Majority endorses the flag, the family, and the freedom of speech. But to avoid endangering the group's tax exempt status, neither national founder Jerry Falwell nor state chairman Jim Vinyard officially endorse candidates. We don't tell people how to vote. We tell them what the issues are as far as Moral Majority leaders are concerned. The issues this election year include abortion, the Equal Rights Amendment, gay rights, and the Panama Canal Treaty, all of which they oppose. And capital punishment, prayer in schools, increased military spending, and reinstatement of the military draft for men, all of which they advocate.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

These are just so weird. They're just such weird. Like, how can you be a Christian, a follower of Jesus and be like, you know what? We should advocate for the death penalty, you know, the thing that killed our Messiah. We should have more of that in our country because that's the Christian perspective.

[Tim]

Well, because that's, that's pulling from the Old Testament Hebrew Bible where they say an eye for an eye. That's what I always hear when they'll justify the death penalty. Which, which goes against the idea of being pro life. Notice that prayer in school, Prayer in school was a topic they were talking about back in 1980.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yes.

[Tim]

When prayer was never taken out of school. People could still pray in school, like, and. But this is something that you hear still today, for sure.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

And all that means, by the way, to just in case people are really are wondering, what do they mean when they, when they say this, all they're saying is that they're mad that the government ruled that teachers cannot lead children through public prayer in school because the First Amendment guarantees the right of religious freedom for all people. Meaning if you have a classroom of some Jewish students and some Buddhist students and some Muslim students and atheist students, it's inappropriate and unconstitutional for a teacher to lead them through a Christian prayer. But students can still pray. They can read their Bible, they can have their own little study groups, and they could be a Christian group or, you know, whatever group that they so choose. And that fact leads them to this outcome that, oh, the government has kicked God out of public schools. That's not the case at all. They just made room for other religious perspectives to not be subject to Christian supremacy. To be very clear.

[Tim]

Well, it's all about how they, they talk about it. Right. Because the way they say we need to put prayer back in schools, it insinuates that prayer was taken out as if people are not allowed to pray. And that's just not true. Not to mention there are so many Christian clubs in public schools still today. See you at the pole. Still exists, which is a time that people can pray around the public school. American flag before or after school? Like it's, it's just the persecution complex.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I used to lead a Bible club in public schools with child evangelism fellowship. I used to do their, their, their after school Bible program. So, yeah, you're exactly correct here. But again, the point though is that, is that these talking points largely are still in the American Christian nationalist lexicon today. Abortion, feminism, that's the era, right? Equal Rights Amendment, gay rights, we hear all about that and how the groomers are coming for, for people, et cetera.

[Tim]

Right, now let's focus more on trans. But gay is still part of that.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Totally. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and again, public or prayer in public schools, these are all the same talking points that keep getting regurgitated and they start really here.

[April]

Yeah, some of those issues have nothing to do with morality. Efforts of that kind to some degree tend to sort of cheapen religion. I believe in separation of church and state, but I don't think you can separate God from America. The separation of church and state is a principle any group anywhere on the political spectrum can use to its own advantage. Tomorrow we'll present the arguments raging in this election year over how that principle should be applied.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

There you go.

[Tim]

Yep, there you go. So history will show. 1980, Ronald Reagan became president. So in 1989, Jerry Falwell actually Disbanded the Moral Majority saying that, quote, our mission is accomplished. But he remained politically active. There's been like so many odd things that he has said throughout his career. Like he has said that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I mean, here's one. I have a bunch of clips that we can play about just some of the crazy things that he said. Here's him talking about, about MLK Day and why he opposes it.

[April]

I don't think we need any more holidays.

[Tim]

Why not a Martin Luther King day?

[April]

I just feel that there are other black Americans and the corporate body of black Americans who are due honor more than one recent individual about whom there's a great question mark even to this morning. What is the question mark? The question mark is that so far all the records on him are sealed and neither you, Tom, nor I really know what they're going to do. You're talking about his personal character and his personal morality and his personal life as well as any connection. He may be as clean as Billy Graham, but we don't know that because the records are sealed.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

There's always talking points again like this, this, this MLK talking point still gets brought up today in right wing spaces. Oh, the FBI files. We don't know how he really was. He wasn't a good person. It's the same stuff over and over again. And this, this by the way, that video was in 1983. This is well after Jerry Falwell, so called, admitted, admitted that he was wrong on his views on integration and segregation. Yet he's still espousing these very anti black views, disparaging the, the greatest civil rights leader arguably you know, of, of our time. And it's just, it's unbelievable to witness.

[Tim]

Yeah. In the 1990s, I don't know if you remember this, he started selling a VHS tape for a donation of $43 or more. That was two hours of wild allegations against Bill Clinton. And this was before the scandal with Monica Lewinsky. I, I believe like pre. All of that. He even played clips from the anti Clinton documentary on his old Time Gospel Hour cable TV show. He called Clinton the most radical and controversial president in our nation's history. Which maybe at the time he might have been up there with Nixon. I mean, I mean Clinton scandal. Listen, I'm not a fan of Bill Clinton. Not, not, no, not apologizing on his behalf but saying like there was a lot of. They were very political and very, very anti Clinton because he was seen as an immoral man for cheating on his wife.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Interesting.

[Tim]

Like back Then, you know, they, they were, they were all about the moral majority, about righteousness, which was, which is one reason too why you and I were so shocked in 2015 and 2016 when they were like, we're not electing a pastor, we're electing a president.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

When it came to Trump, Franklin Graham, Billy Graham's son, literally wrote an op ed about Bill Clinton saying that what one does in private matters when it comes to his public leadership. And then you have in 2015, the same Franklin Graham being like, yeah, locker room talk.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I mean, it's not a big deal.

[Tim]

Yeah, yeah, I know. We have beaten this dead horse too much in Y2K. Do you remember the Y2K situation?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim]

Reverend Jerry Falwell was one of the people that was selling stuff. He sold a video entitled A Christian Survival Guide to the Millennium Bug.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, of course.

[Tim]

He also, there's a video I think you pulled this one where he talks about the aclu.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, I got that one.

[Tim]

This is crazy.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Which, by the way, American Civil Liberties Union, okay? They fight for civil rights. They fight for the well being of all Americans to make sure that all Americans have access to constitutional rights and are free from religious, in this case, Christian supremacy. Here's how Jerry Fall talked about them.

[April]

The aclu. And thus we mention an organization that wishes we Christians would go away. I was asked by a very talented reporter in another state two weeks ago, a reporter who happened to be Jewish, what do you Christians have against the aclu? I said, well, you need to understand that we Christians, Bible believing Christians, think of the ACLU in the same way that you Jews think of the Nazis.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Wow.

[April]

Something to be avoided.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, my God.

[April]

Somebody who's out to get us. Well, what evidence do you have they're out to get you? Well, it was the ACLU who assisted in throwing prayer and Bible reading out of public schools. It was the ACLU that ripped all the Christian heritage out of the textbooks in the public schools in this country. It was the ACLU that has removed all the manger scenes from public places in this nation of ours. It is the ACLU that wants in Godly trust off our currency. It is the ACLU that got upset with that Pledge of Allegiance up in Massachusetts.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Okay, can I actually say one thing? Even if that was all true, which by the way, it's really not, but even if it was, it's still not as bad as what the Nazis did to Jewish people. Like, I just want to be really.

[Tim]

Clear about that, you know, Like, I.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Don'T know, the Holocaust is still way worse, like, infinitely worse than what Jerry Falwell said is happening to Christians in America. Even if those accusations were true.

[April]

Wow.

[Tim]

I just cannot even imagine saying something like that to a Jewish person and believing it. Well, you know how you have the Nazis. Well, us.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Right.

[Tim]

Have the aclu.

[April]

Yeah.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

You have the group fighting for equal rights for all Americans. Right. Who shouldn't be subject to major scenes in public schools. It's the same thing. It really is the same thing. It's like, what are you talking about?

[Tim]

Do you also. So speaking of the aclu, he, he, do you have that clip where he's talking about 911?

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, do I. I have it archived. I cite it all the time.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

All right, here's, here's his take on 911.

[April]

What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is.

[Tim]

Pause.

[April]

Could be min.

[Tim]

I need people to know. I need people to know that this is like, just a few days after nine. Eleven.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Context. Like this just happened. Okay.

[Tim]

Like September 11, 2001 just happened. Like a few days before he says this.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Okay.

[April]

If in fact. If in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve. Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population. The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this.

[Tim]

Wow.

[April]

And I know I'll hear from them for this. But throwing God successfully, with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the aclu, People for the American Way, all of them who tried to secularize America. I point the thing in their face and say, you helped this happen. Well, I, I, I totally concur.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Pat Robertson.

[Tim]

So that was, that was an interview on the 700 Club. So the other voice you heard and saw was Pat Robertson.

[April]

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[Tim]

Ladies, you'll end up shopping for your guys deodorant right.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

So try Degree's Original Cool Rush.

[Tim]

You see, last year, Degree changed the formula and men were mad. One guy even started a petition so Degree admitted they messed up and brought.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

The original Cool Rush scent back.

[April]

It's clean, crisp and actually smells like someone you want to cuddle.

[Tim]

And it's in Walmart, Target and other.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Stores now for under $4.

[Tim]

So toss one in your cart and find out why it's the best selling men's antiperspirant for the last decade. Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like Victory Morning Decisions A creamy mocha Frappuccino drink. A sweet vanilla, maybe a smooth caramel or that white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Start your day with bottled Starbucks Frappuccino drinks. Pick up a bottle near you wherever you buy your groceries.

[April]

Impact confirmed. The Slayer has been activated. Demonic threat level increasing. Hold the line.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

All the power of Hell.

[April]

Cowering of all one Man ID software presents the Dark Ages.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Available now on Xbox Series X&S, PlayStation 5 and PC. Rated M for Mature.

[April]

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[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Effects of Botox Cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Don't receive Botox Cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow and eyelid drooping and eyelid swelling. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Tell your doctor about medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including Botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. For full safety information, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300.

[April]

See for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com hi, my.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Name is Brent and I live in.

[Tim]

Central Illinois and I'm a new donor to the New Evangelicals. I spent about 30 years in ministry, half the time as a missionary overseas and half the time serving in two small US Churches as a pastor. During those years I had lots of questions and doubts and I saw so many inconsistencies in the way that we dealt with theology and the Bible and just our American church culture. It was very frustrating to me. And so I kept going to sources to try to find answers, to make sense of it all, but just never found something that made sense to me. A year ago, I did step down from being a pastor, not because of those things, but for other reasons. And I started a deep dive into going to other sources, including the New Evangelicals podcast that has really helped me to reframe my faith. And it's kind of like the old prescription of glasses that I was wearing to see God and my faith and Christianity just wasn't cutting it anymore. And the new prescription of glasses has allowed me to be able to see things so much better. So I'm on a different path. And I'm very thankful to Tim and the New Evangelicals for introducing me to different guests and commentaries. That's helping reshape my faith. So being a donor is a great privilege, and I appreciate the work you're doing.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

And again, friends, do you hear the echoes of what we're talking about today? Right. April and I and many other people, we track Christian nationalism. We've been exposing it for several years now. In fact, April, you and I were talking about how it's been a decade since. Since we started talking publicly about, you know, not being a fan of Trump and seeing some problems. And do you hear the echoes? Right. Jerry Falwell blaming the abortionists, quote unquote, the feminists, the gays. It's the same people groups that have been under attack by this group of people for decades. And. And it's really effective. It scares their base into thinking that these people are the boogeymen who are responsible for the problems in America. In this case, for 9 11. For 9 11, it's God's judgment for having the ACLU in America again, the group fighting for civil rights for all Americans, including black Americans. Right. For Jerry, they're just so problematic that God has to be judging the nation by destroying the Twin Towers and killing tens of thousands of people. Like, it's just wild. It's wild.

[Tim]

And that rhetoric is something I grew up with. The idea that, yes, because we have allowed what we would see as immorality to come into our nation, that God would no longer bless our nation because we were taught this idea of American exceptionalism and that God supernaturally blessed America and our founders and. And helped us through all of our wars. And so when bad things start to happen to our nation, it's not our fault. It's. And you can't fully blame God, but it's God's judgment because we have allowed sin into our nation. I mean, my dad, my dad wrote a book called America Save Jesus and then that I wrote a song to also. But on the COVID of my dad's book he had a prophetic warning that said unless America defines her God, which is Jesus Christ, that God would lift the veil of protection on our country and we would experience bloodshed like never before. That was very much in line with what Jerry Falwell is saying there and what Pat Robertson are saying there. And to be fair, they did. They did. Eventually they got a lot of backlash for that interview and they apologized. But I mean, I don't, I feel like they meant that.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

No, of course they meant it. Yeah, of course they meant it. And by the way, just to kind of paint the bigger picture. So Doug Wilson, at the same time, this is all happening. Doug Wilson's a different figure that we'll be covering in the future. He said that, that the greatest tragedy of 911 was not the planes flying into the towers, but it was the fact that an ecumenical prayer service was held in Congress essentially and that a woman pastor gave the prayer. I had the recording like that's what he said. So. So we can see how again for decades there was this extreme fundamentalism brewing that was also very tech savvy and very savvy with rhetoric. Right. They, they were able to really mask what they believed in in way more sanitized ways for a mass audience. Right. It wasn't about stopping. It wasn't about necessarily killing gay people. It was about American values. It wasn't about segregation. It was about making sure that we're still a Christian nation. But there's all these presuppositions behind those phrases that always equate to right wing white supremacist talking points that disenfranchise other groups of people. Yeah, every time. Every single time. And Jerry Falwell arguably was the biggest bedrock and cornerstone for the whole house of this right wing zealotry. Right. Being built off of. I do want to get to this clip that we didn't share earlier that we should have. This is Paul Weyrich, his really Jerry follows right hand man, helping him really change the white evangelical voting block from pretty mixed, even pretty Democrat for like, you know, or more liberal, I should say to this Ronald Reagan esque Republicanism. Here's what he said about voting. This is very telling.

[April]

Have what I call the goo goo syndrome. Good government. They want everybody to vote I don't want everybody to vote. And elections are not won by a majority of people. They never have been from the beginning of our country, and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Goes. Yeah, he says goes down. And again, this is, you hear this talk where I have Republicans want to disenfranchise franchise voters. Again, it's not unfounded. Paul Weyrich is, was the political strategist behind the Moral Majority. And he believed the less people who vote, the better off they are. And so this is, this stuff comes from somewhere. Right. It doesn't just happen in a vacuum. These news reports or, or accusations aren't unfounded. And this is all baked in to what becomes the Moral Majority and the right wing edifice that eventually gives birth to Trump and real intense Christian nationalism.

[Tim]

Yeah. I think you should play 1999 when Jerry Falwell had something to say about Teletubby.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, you want the. Wait, I have two of them here. Wait, which one?

[Tim]

Yeah, there's two. There's a video. I think there's only one video.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Oh, yeah, this one. Okay. This is a 2 1/2 minute long clip, but it's really worth it. This is like a new, it's a news reporting clip.

[Tim]

I think it's from, from 1999.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Okay, I'm gonna play the whole thing. Just, just buckle up, friends.

[April]

Here we go, Bob.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

For NBC News, Washington, NBC News. That's right.

[April]

Also tonight, there's a new front in the battle for the hearts and minds of a America's youngest children. And at the center of this debate, television's Teletubbies. Four little talking dolls who skip and giggle and delight toddlers around the world. But now a prominent member of the American religious right claims one of the Teletubbies is gay. What's going on here? We continue tonight in depth. Here's NBC's Jim Avila. This is how millions of American toddlers begin their day watching a British import called Teletubbies. Cuddly, seemingly harmless talking dolls with TV screens in their tummies, best selling videos and a top rated morning show on public tv. But now, one Teletubby, the little purple figure carrying a handbag, is the target of Jerry Falwell's conservative religious magazine, the doll accused of being gay.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Then it was Tinky Winky's turn to wear the skirt.

[April]

Falwell's National Liberty magazine calls the purple Teletubby named Tinky Winky a gay Role model damaging to the moral lives of children. It is being perceived by the gay community out there as something good for them. Falwell says he did not research the issue himself, but his magazine, with 295,000 subscribers, points to what it says is evidence that the creators of the series intend for Tinky Winky to be a gay role model have surfaced. He is purple, the Gay Pride color. And his antenna is shaped like a triangle, the Gay Pride symbol. Our interest is in being sure that parents are aware of what their children are watching and are sitting down themselves. The show's producers say none of the four Teletubbies has a sexual identity and the colors were chosen because they're bright. What is all this nonsense about? It's a preschool series for kids that they love, that parents are happy about. So why target Teletubbies? It's the number one children's show in America. 16 million US viewers seen in 50 countries and $2 billion in merchandise sold.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

But a gay role model?

[Tim]

It's hard to say I'm offended and to keep a straight face at the same time.

[April]

And child psychiatrists say even if Falwell's magazine is right and Tinky Winky has a sexual preference, it means nothing. People's identity. Identity is formed by biological factors and by their relationships to their parents. Not, say the experts, by a child's relationship with a favorite purple doll. Jim Avila, NBC News, Chicago.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

But it's in line, right? There's always something in culture that is making the kids gay that you gotta fight against. Today it's Disney. You know how often, especially on X, I see accusations that Disney is trying to groom children? It's the same ingredients. Telly tubbies. They're going after Ms. Rachel because she says that kids in Gaza deserve to live. And now she's anti Semitic. These are culture war maniacs. I'm sorry, we have to use strong language here. They're maniacs.

[Tim]

There was a Christian blogger too, last year that went after Bluey, saying that it was feminizing fatherhood because they had a present dad that played with their kids.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

This always comes from somewhere. This is nothing new. And by the way, we should. We should also just note here. And this again, this is a deeper conversation for a different time. Jerry Falwell and his rhetoric towards the gay community directly impacted the deaths of. The deaths of gay people during the AIDS crisis because Ronald Reagan did jack shit for the gay community when AIDS was ripping through their community because of this kind of rhetoric that, that. That being gays and abomination that God's going to judge the country via, you know, things like 9, 11, that these people are immoral. Immoral. That AIDS is a punishment sent by God. The Reagan administration did nothing for those people. There are terrible stories of nurses neglecting care for patients just because of their sexual identity. So the rhetoric of Falwell, as much as it's fun to laugh at it and poke jabs at it and say this is ridiculous, had and has real world consequences because people have suffered under this theology believing that gay people and other groups who are not white and not straight and not normal, according to them, deserve some kind of punishment for being who they are or deserve less access to the same rights that people like Jerry Falwell get. So this, this rhetoric does have serious consequences. For sure.

[Tim]

Yeah, well, and not just that gay people deserve consequences, but it's led. This type of rhetoric is super dangerous because you, Jerry Falwell is not the only well known pastor to equate bad things happening to the existence of gay people. You had John Hagee who blamed Hurricane Katrina on the fact that there was a Pride parade in New Orleans. And you know, this is something that has dire consequences because then not only are you telling Christians and people in your churches that homosexuality is wrong, but you're saying not only is it wrong, but God is now judging all of us collectively because these people exist. And it just, just leads to more and more hatred of gay people and also teaches gay people who are in the closet in those churches to hate themselves and leads to high rates of suicide and, and violent crimes. And it's, it's very, very dangerous. And it's silly. Like taking a war against a purple Teletubby because it's purple and has a triangle on its head.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

So dumb.

[Tim]

Silly. And it's so stupid. But also like, is, is erasing like the. So the pink triangle was. An inverted pink triangle was the symbol that Nazis used to identify who was, who was homosexual in concentration camps. So it's also like, like that is a very harsh reality that gay people have had to, to deal with, historically speaking. And then it's making it like. And, and then when gay people have turned that into something to be proud of of, like, this is something that was so hard in our history, but we're gonna now use that to, to, to reclaim it. And then now you have this man coming in and being like, oh, how dare they? And, and it's just, we've done like, Christians have done such a. They have harmed the queer community. I mean, so Many communities. But the queer community, especially for no reason.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

No 100%. It's. There's a great book called Heavy Burdens by Bridget Eileen Rivera. Recommend it to everyone. It's a great read and talks about this, especially in the 80s and just how dehumanizing not just the rhetoric, but the actions were of Christians and unfortunately continues on today. Right. Right wing authoritarian Christianity arguably has more power than ever before and is targeting our trans neighbors and our gay neighbors and our lesbian neighbors. There are people who want to overturn Obergefell, which gives gay people the right to marry. These are real things. And also, might I add, on top of these being very serious issues that are hurting people, they're also a huge distraction. Right. From average Americans getting affordable wages. Jerry Falwell didn't fight for things like closing the wage gap. In fact, under Reagan and many other presidents like them, the wage gap has exploded. The ultra rich has gotten much richer while the middle class and the lower class have only gotten poorer over time.

[April]

Time.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

And we're. And these people create these tornadoes of chaos around culture war issues that distract from the fact that all of us, if conservative or liberal, still can't get access to affordable health care. We can't get access to livable wages. Housing is super expensive. Right. I say this on every single show because it's true. So not only are they distracting us and hurting other groups of people, they're also stopping the human flourishing of what can be all of us. All of us, if we could actually tax the rich and fix the issues that we know are broken with society. But we can't because this right wing MAGA group is hell bent on these culture war issues and distracting us from solving real problems. Right. Trump gets free jets from guitar. We're talking about that. We're not talking about the fact that, that, that, that the government is literally trying to now collect on default college loans put into action by a predatory loan system between big business and the government. Right. We have bigger issues to deal with, but it's distraction after distraction and it's just, it's infuriating.

[Tim]

Yeah. So Jerry Falwell, after seeing 911 and the Purple Teletubby in 2004, was like, gotta bring it back. So he restarted what he called the Faith and Values Coalition that would later become the Moral Majority Coalition to keep evangelical influence strong in politics. You know, he disbanded it. He said, our job is done. And then saw Purple Telltale. He's like, nope, gotta jump back in a few years later.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

No.

[Tim]

So I do think It'd be, he said so many other things. Like he, he kind of alluded to Hillary Clinton being worse than Lucifer at one point. Totally, totally like this. So many things. He started Liberty University, which became very political, which I'm sure we'll get into more. Our next deep dive we're going to do Jerry Falwell Jr. Another fun fact about Liberty University is they when Hell Houses became really big, Liberty University also put on their own called Scare Mare.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Did they really? Of course they did. Of course they did.

[Tim]

Yeah. Fun, fun times.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

But, but I want to play this one clip. It's an older clip of Jerry Falwell where he's being interviewed.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

And he just, and, and someone's asking her, him these questions of like, well, why do you do this? Like people say you're fundamentalist, say that you're being hateful. And I, I, I believe, you know, I don't know Jerry Falwell's heart, but he seems like one of the ones that genuinely believes what he's saying. But I think this clip really kind of shows the why behind a lot of the stuff that he says, a lot of the crazy stuff that he says for the reasons why he does and did the things that he did. This is the why. And this is the why for a lot of people that are pushing Christian nationalism right now.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

It also shows the cognitive dissonance between all the rhetoric that we just played for you and how people like Jerry actually see themselves. Here's the clip.

[April]

Feel we have an obligation to preach the gospel to all of the four and a half billion souls on earth. But as long as it comes from a premise of love and concern for people, people don't mind us saying that it is when we come at the world saying, hey, the rest of you people are going to hell. We're the only ones who have the truth. That is arrogant, self righteous pharisaism that the world won't accept. I don't mind a Jewish rabbi saying, hey, your Messiah didn't come, but I love you. I'll take that from him. I won't agree with him, but I'll take that from him. But he says, you people are a bunch of heathen and pagan. They all go into hell and we have the truth and so forth. I don't like that. But see, I think that people have that impression of your fundamentalist followers that your group is saying, if you don't believe what we believe, you're all going to go to hell and that you all are less worthy as people well, we're certainly not saying the latter part. We don't think anybody is worthy. We think we're all unworthy. We think that all men are sinners and that Christ died for all of humanity, not just Americans, not just Protestants or Catholics or Jews. Christ died for all men. And that the plan of salvation and gaining access to God is through believing that I am a sinner. Christ paid my sin debt on the cross by shedding his blood and I thereby accept him as my Lord and my Redeemer and thus become a member of the family of God that's available to everybody. And a God of love is not cornered by fundamentalists or by Southern Baptist or by Methodists. God is not cornered by anybody. The gospel is for everyone. And we do believe in the exclusivity of salvation, that only those who trust Christ are born again. We believe that. We believe that only those who trusted the Lord are going to have access to heaven. If we didn't believe that, we'd be very hypocritical about doing what we're doing, going out and preaching the gospel to every corner of the earth. At the same time, it must be based upon and predicated upon a genuine love for everybody and a considerate concern turn for everyone. And Phariseeism must never be a part of our makeup.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Wow.

[Tim]

So notice how she says people would say that you are being very exclusive by saying only you all are going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. And notice he's like, oh well no, no, no, we wouldn't say we're all unworthy, we all deserve hell. Like and, and then he, he talks a long time to basically say what she said, but in a very sugar coated way, like, well, we do believe in the exclusivity of salvation, that you do have to believe like we do in order to go to heaven. But it's rooted in love. We do all of this for love. And I, and genuinely, like, I was convinced when I believed this way that what I was doing was loving. That me telling a gay person that, that that was a sin deserving of hell was a form of love because I genuinely believed that. And it was like, oh well, I am now giving them a lifeline to leave that sin behind and then come with me to go to heaven. It is a very twisted way to convince yourselves that even though you are spewing super hateful rhetoric and you are being dismissive of so many different types of belief systems and different ways of life that you're somehow being loving because you have the truth and these people don't.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yep. Again, this is the same person who a few years later would blame 911 on the gays and the feminists and the abortionists now. But saying in this clip, no, no, love has got to be the basis of everything that we do, while also saying, also, we have an exclusive truth that no one else has. If they don't believe how we do, they're going to burn for in hell forever. But we'll just say they won't go to heaven to kind of sugarcoat it. Right. And you're right. I mean, I was taught the same thing because there are preachers who create rhetoric that is very convincing. Hey, if you had, if you had the winning numbers to the lottery, wouldn't you want to share that with your friends? Wouldn't you want to share in the good news of what that is? Right. It's the same thing. You have the winning numbers to heaven. It's the same ideology. Right. That, that's how they, they spin it. So you feel like, wow, I have some unique spiritual truth that my friends don't have. I know what happens when we die. They're gonna burn in hell forever unless I give them this lifeline. And, and what that really means, though, is getting them indoctrinated into this hyper fundamentalist world that at the root is loaded with white supremacists and, and right wing talking points to maintain a certain hierarchy in America where they're at the top and their opponents are at the bottom. So it is so. It's so deceitful. But on the surface, like you, April, I get how you think this way. I get it. But when you unpack it, you'll realize like how, how poisonous that fruit really is.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

You know?

[Tim]

Yeah. And I mean, Jerry Falwell, to me it seemed like a true believer in, in what he was saying.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I think he believed it. Yeah.

[Tim]

Yeah. And he seemed to practice what he preached. You know, I would. Which I think is different from his son, Jerry Jr. Who will. We will get into next week, who will say a lot of these same things.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah.

[Tim]

But I don't, I don't know. I, I have a hard time seeing Jerry Jr. As being a true believer like his dad was. And we'll get into all the reasons.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

I wonder if. I wonder if. And I. Look, I can't read Jerry Falwell Sr's mind, but I do wonder if over time the power becomes so intoxicating that like, you just start doing things to maintain power and control. Right. We talk about how Christian nationalism is rooted in that. And I just feel like, like his son just carries on the tradition of what Jerry laid down. Right. I think in the very beginning Jerry had this real conversion. He wanted to save souls. He starts this old time Gospel Hour thing. It really blows up. More people are coming to it. Then he sees his way of life again, rooted in supremacy and in segregation, being challenged. And that somehow convinces him that in order to be a good, faithful Christian, he has to challenge the government and start this whole movement. And I think from there he realizes all the political power that he has accumulated and starts realizing that, hey, this is actually pretty lucrative stuff. You know, like there's a lot of power here, a lot of money here, a lot of fame here. And I think his son just keeps it going and goes to the next stage of like, why even believe the theology stuff or, or why even live that way when I could just say it? And as long as I say the right things, they'll believe me. And I can live this completely different lifestyle and have my cake and eat it too. Right. I can fly on private jets and I can do things with things with my wife and someone else, which we'll get into next week. You know, that completely defy traditional sexual values. Yeah. But as long as I say the right things, I'm, I'm in. So I, I do think we're just seeing the evolution of, of, of what's been laid for all these years. And by the way, the same thing can be said for Charlie Kirk and these, this like new generation of MAGA talk show hosts and influencers. They're way more radical than your Rush Limbaughs of the world. But those people and talk radio laid the foundation that Charlie Kirk and many others are picking up on and they're just following the path down to its logical conclusion, you know, in my opinion.

[Tim]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there I think that wraps up Jerry Falwell senior, who's very influential in what we would now call, you know, this modern idea of what Christian nationalism is. And I do think that is a big piece of it is. I, I don't think he ever set out to be a big figure in Christian nationalism. He set out to be a pastor. He set out to just be a good Christian and to save souls. And God co op. Like that ideology got co opted by this political drive to influence politics.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

Yeah, so.

[Tim]

So, yeah, but next week we're gonna, we're gonna talk about his son, Jerry Falwell Jr. Who has maybe not as been as influential in the broader Christian nationalism, but was super influential specifically with Donald Trump 100% gaining Donald Trump, the White House.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

So if, if Paula White was the intro to, like, the charismatic world, I would argue that Donald, that, that Jerry Falwell Jr. Was the intro into the Baptist, you know, more Jerry Fowell senior kind of world, because there's a direct connection there for sure, which we'll get into next week. So, yay.

[April]

Fun show.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

April. Good job.

[Tim]

Yeah. Have a great day, everybody, and we'll catch you next week.

[Jerry Falwell Sr.]

See ya.