44. Doug Wilson's Dreadful Vision for a Christian America

Summary

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The Tim & April Show

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)

Episode 44: "Doug Wilson's Dreadful Vision for a Christian America"

Release Date: September 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy dive deep into a recent CNN interview with controversial Christian nationalist pastor Doug Wilson. Responding in real-time to the full 30-minute CNN segment, Tim and April analyze Wilson’s vision for a "Christian America," unpacking the origins, ideology, and real-world dangers of Christian nationalism. The conversation is rooted in a commitment to a Christian worldview of justice, love, and inclusivity, with the hosts determined to shine a light on the threat posed by Wilson’s mainstreaming theological and political views. Listeners should expect a passionate, incisive, and sometimes fiery critique of Christian nationalism and the figures responsible for its spread.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Focus on Doug Wilson?

[03:05 – 05:44]

• Tim recounts the CNN interview dropping during his month off, noting TNE’s longstanding concern about Wilson's influence.
• Tim: "[Doug Wilson is] one of the most influential Christian nationalists of our time. In fact, he's actually Pete Hegseth's pastor, and one of my critiques... was that no one in Congress asked Pete about Doug Wilson. And then CNN drops this piece and Doug goes mega viral for all the wrong reasons."

2. Wilson’s Vision for a "Christian America" (and What’s Omitted)

[06:12 – 08:13]

• Wilson describes an America "ruled by Christ" where “clown world” things like drag queen story hour, pride parades, and abortion are gone.
• April: "He didn’t say there would be no poor people... people would have homes... we would love our neighbor. No, he goes to, 'there’d be no drag story hour.'"
• Tim: “Neither drag queen story hour nor abortions are ever talked about by Christ.”
• April: "Abortion on demand is a propagandist 100% saying."

3. Christian Nationalism vs. The Way of Jesus

[08:13 – 09:43]

• Tim explains: “Christian nationalists, while they definitely are participating in a Christian tradition, they are antichrist in what they advocate for.”
• Wilson’s “world ruled by Christ” is devoid of concepts actually grounded in Christ’s words, pivoting instead to culture war topics.

4. The "Clown World" Narrative and COVID Radicalization

[11:03 – 12:55]

• Wilson frames mask mandates, social distancing, and increased LGBTQ visibility as "chaos" triggering mass migration to his church.
• Tim: "For Doug, just the fact that other people are out there and in some parts celebrated... makes this huge reaction."
• April: “Trans people have always existed. We’re just now... it just seems like they're everywhere because right-wing media won't stop talking about [them].”

5. Scapegoating Minorities, Misinformation, and Christian Nationalist Growth

[13:32 – 16:52]

• April notes right-wing media inventions (e.g., "litter boxes in classrooms") stoking outrage that isn’t rooted in reality.
• Tim: "Christian nationalism always needs an out group to scapegoat for society's ills... Usually it's a minority."
• Discussion of media distortion following mass shootings.

6. Wilson’s Christian Nationalism—Definition and Dishonesty

[17:08 – 21:15]

• Wilson openly affirms he’s a Christian nationalist, but offers a "BS definition" conflating it with mere patriotism.
• April: "There is a difference between being patriotic... versus nationalism... Nationalism... elevates one ideology to the detriment of others."
• Tim and April debunk his supposed religious tolerance by playing a clip (from Stephen Wolf on Canon Press, Wilson’s publishing arm) openly discussing blasphemy laws and suppression of atheism and other beliefs.

7. Historical Revisionism: "America as a Christian Nation"

[24:58 – 28:28]

• The hosts call out Wilson’s lack of historical training and his willful misrepresentation of the founders' intent for the U.S. as secular and religiously pluralistic.
• Tim: "If you read the Constitution, it's very clear... there is no federal government that's supposed to mandate a certain type of Christianity..."

8. Racism and Xenophobia on Display

[28:40 – 31:44]

• Wilson complains there are “so many” Muslims and Hindus in America, suggesting a need for “sane immigration policy.”
• April: “This is so racist and xenophobic... According to the 2020 census, about 4.5 million Muslim Americans live in the United States, about 1.34%.”
• Tim: "This is KKK talking points... This is why we call it white Christian nationalism."

9. Wilson’s Whitewashed Defense of Slavery

[37:38 – 41:50]

• Tim reads directly from Wilson’s book Southern Slavery as it Was, in which Wilson claims the slave system fostered “mutual affection and confidence.”
• April: “That full thing is so damning. What on earth are you talking about?... He is the one whitewashing this history.”
• Connections made between Wilson’s revisionism and Pete Hegseth’s push to restore Confederate monuments.

10. The Endgame: Legislating Christian Nationalism

[44:27 – 46:27]

• Wilson openly yearns to see Obergefell (marriage equality) overturned after celebrating Roe’s reversal.
• Tim: “They want a country where women have no bodily autonomy... where queer people are forced back into the closet... This is what they want.”
• April reminds listeners that legal oppression is a form of violence, even if not physically enacted.

11. Sexism and Militarism

[48:12 – 51:15]

• Wilson argues against women in the military, blaming the presence of women for potential misconduct by men, disregarding agency and accountability.
• April: “Control your own dick, Doug... That is a problem with the men, not the women.”
• Tim: “Women are to be at home, [to] make sandwiches and have babies. He says that on his own blogs.”

12. Hypocrisy and Sexualization

[52:27 – 55:23]

• April cites hypocrisy in Wilson's attacks on drag queens and trans people as “sexualizing children,” while Wilson’s own record includes publishing an erotic novel (Ride Sally Ride) and involvement in covering up abuse in his church.
• Tim: “This is the people who are, 'Oh, society's gone too far to the left...' Meanwhile, this guy is marrying off actual pedophiles to women in his church.”

13. Gender Roles and Misogyny

[55:45 – 58:22]

• Wilson admits his vision is patriarchal and frames egalitarianism as a “slippery slope” to chaos.
• Tim: “This has been debunked... Doug wants a society [where] women are good for two things: serving men and making babies for men.”
• Practical examples (military standards, fire departments) undermined by reality.

14. Slippery Slope Fallacies

[66:09 – 68:13]

• Wilson deploys classic slippery slope logic, warning that “daughters are going to be drafted.”
• April: “Phyllis Schlafly in the '70s used this exact same fear mongering... and it never happened.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Doug Wilson (on his ideal Christian America):
"We wouldn't have clown world. We wouldn't have drag queen story hours. We wouldn't have pride parades. We wouldn't have abortion on demand... Those things would be gone."
— [07:00]

Tim Whitaker:
"Christian nationalists... are antichrist in what they advocate for. Because you see Doug's sleight of hand here, where he says, 'in a world ruled by Christ,' and then lists out things that Christ never talks about."
— [08:13]

April Ajoy:
"Be trans, be who you're meant to be. There's absolutely... trans rights are human rights."
— [14:27]

Doug Wilson (on other religions):
"There are so many of them, right? So if we had a Christian republic and a Muslim came to Disneyland with his family, we have no problem. But when they fill up Dearborn, Michigan... you cannot put alien worldviews together cheek by jowl and have peace."
— [28:54]

Tim Whitaker (after reading from Wilson's slavery text):
"This is literal lost-cause mythology... This is the man who is saying how he was fringe but now he's not anymore, and who... is happy that Pete Hegseth reads his writings."
— [39:35]

April Ajoy:
"If you really want to prey on women, go be a pastor. [You have] 100% free reign to prey on women, no accountability."
— [61:34]

Doug Wilson (defending men-only spaces):
"There are certain places that ought to be male-only spaces and combat is one of them. Being closed up in a submarine is another one."
— [50:00]

April Ajoy (on Wilson's vision):
"I have zero doubts that if Doug Wilson lived during the time leading up... to the Civil War, he would have owned slaves for sure."
— [39:46]

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Key Timestamps

• [06:30] — Wilson lays out his "Christ-ruled" America—no drag queens, no pride, no abortion.
• [08:13] — Tim and April critique Wilson’s blatant rewrite of Jesus’ message.
• [11:03] — Wilson: COVID restrictions and blue states triggered mass migration to his church.
• [17:08] — Wilson confirms he's a Christian nationalist; April and Tim expose the term's deeper implications.
• [28:54] — Wilson’s “assimilation” argument for fewer Muslims/Hindus in the U.S.
• [37:38] — Tim reads from Wilson’s book defending slavery; April reacts with visible horror.
• [44:27] — Wilson wants Obergefell (marriage equality) reversed, as was Roe v. Wade.
• [49:17] — Wilson argues against women and trans people in the military.
• [53:07] — Discussion of Wilson’s past abuses and his erotic fiction.
• [58:59] — Debunking Wilson’s binary thinking about gender roles and ability.
• [66:09] — Wilson’s “slippery slope” argument: feminism allegedly leads to drafting daughters for war.

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Tone & Style

The episode is emotionally charged, incisive, and unwavering in its critique. Tim and April alternate between biting sarcasm (“Control your own dick, Doug” - April, [49:17]), sober historical analysis, and moments of dismay and incredulity. Their tone remains accessible but urgent, making it clear that the issues discussed threaten democracy, theological integrity, and basic human rights.

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Conclusion & Next Episode Tease

The episode ends at roughly the 1:19:50 mark of the CNN interview, with Tim and April noting there’s still more dangerous content left to dissect—specifically Wilson’s views on repealing the 19th amendment and deepening patriarchy in American law. The hosts encourage listeners seeking a better, justice-centered faith to check out TNE Connect and tease a part-two continuation for the following week.

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Summary Takeaway

• Doug Wilson’s Christian nationalism is nakedly exclusionary, patriarchal, and white supremacist—despite a veneer of "politeness" and piety.
• The beliefs Wilson espouses are no longer fringe but are increasingly entering mainstream conservative and evangelical movements, with growing political influence.
• Tim and April take every opportunity to debunk, contextualize, and confront these ideas, encouraging listeners to wake up to the clear and present danger of Christian nationalist ideology.
• The conversation is deeply rooted in advocacy for dignity, inclusion, and the liberative spirit of Jesus.

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For more on this topic, Part Two will continue the critical response to Doug Wilson’s CNN interview in Episode 45.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

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[April Ajoy]

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[Interviewer]

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[April Ajoy]

They'll love to take them and that makes mornings easier. When back to school gets real, Ollie helps you deal.

[Interviewer]

Find these and [e-mail] or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose.

[Tim Whitaker]

Treat, cure or prevent any disease. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians.

[Doug Wilson]

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[Tim Whitaker]

Who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, you're not in my shot.

[April Ajoy]

I got a in your shot.

[Tim Whitaker]

We got to keep that take. There you go.

[April Ajoy]

Here I am. I hello. I. I am here.

[Tim Whitaker]

First. First Monday episode back in a month and I'm ready messing it up.

[April Ajoy]

Tuesday, Tuesday episode.

[Tim Whitaker]

Tuesday, right. We Tuesday right do. I'm so out of sorts. Oh, well. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Tim and April show. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, this is our first now new Tuesday release date. I was off for a whole month. The team gave me the month off, so I was spending time with my family. And while I was out of commission, Melinda, who's the executive director of the new evangelicals, said, you know, Tim, you release these Tim and April shows on Monday, but they kind of compete with the TNE podcast that we do. So let's just do it on Tuesday. So I said, okay, sounds good. So we're releasing this now on Tuesday. Every Tuesday, we're releasing a YouTube video and putting this also on podcast. But it's good to be back. April, it's good to see you as always. Yeah, it's nice to be. To be back in the saddle.

[April Ajoy]

I know you. You have been missed greatly. So I'm glad that that you are back here gracing us with your beard. It feels actually beardy today.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I haven't shaved in a month. This, you know, this past August. So we move into a new house. I moved the studio to a whole new location, so there's a lot of st get done. And shaving was not on the top of the to do list. But at some point I'll, I'll, I'll trim it down. So. Yeah, maybe.

[April Ajoy]

Roger that. I see. I see that. Well, I'm glad that you got that you're here relatively in time, because while you were gone, CNN dropped this interview with Doug Wilson. And I literally, we were texting, like, of course, this is the month that you're on. You love talking about Doug Wilson. You've talked about him for years.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, yes. It was wild. You know, I'm on sabbatical and CNN's like, oh, we interviewed this guy named Doug Wilson. I'm like, I spit out my drink. I'm like, doug Wilson? You mean the dude that we've been talking about for years? In fact, I, not I, but someone on our team two years ago actually interviewed Doug for a new evangelicals podcast because we were so concerned about what he wanted to do in America. He's, he's one of, like, the most influential Christian nationalists of our time. In fact, he's actually Pete Hegstaff's pastor. And one of my critiques during Pete Hegstaff's confirmation hearing was that no one in Congress asked Pete about Doug Wilson. And then CNN drops this piece and Doug goes mega viral for all the wrong reasons. And I, April, you and I were talking like, what should we do when I come back? And I'm like, let's do the full response. Let's watch the whole 30 minute segment that CNN did of Doug Wilson and just respond to it. I think that that that's the first thing we need to do right out of the gate.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, because we. One of the episodes where you were gone when Promise Backlin was on with me or Eve was framed. We responded to the six minute, which I think was what they aired, like on tv, but they had a longer interview version that's like a half hour. They posted to YouTube that I haven't watched the whole thing. So I saved it for you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Same. I saved it for you. Look at that. Yeah. So I think we just. Let's go through this thing and just see what Doug has to say again, you know, if you're new to the show or maybe new to the world of Christian nationalism. Doug is someone with very deep roots, the white evangelical tradition. But he's also, at the same time, kind of been an outlier for a lot of reasons. However, over the past, I would say four to five years, he's picked up a lot of popularity in this dominion, this space. And like I said earlier, Pete Hegseth, who Currently runs our military is someone who is discipled by Doug. He goes to a church under Doug Wilson's denomination. And so there's a lot of connections here. And I think if you don't know who Doug Wilson is, you might be pretty shocked to hear what he has to say and what's being said now on mainstream cable news networks. So.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah. And the way he says it so just nonchalantly too.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

I think that might be, like, the most disturbing part is that he's saying these things with his full chest, like.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Well.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, shall we.

[April Ajoy]

Shall we get.

[Tim Whitaker]

Get your coffee mug out. I got my emotional support mug out, and I'm ready to go. Here we go.

[April Ajoy]

Perfect. Let's do it.

[Interviewer]

What makes this community here in Moscow so unique?

[Doug Wilson]

You can't make good omelets with rotten eggs. It doesn't matter how good the recipe is. It doesn't matter how good the kitchen is. Doesn't matter how good the cook is. If people aren't walking with God, then it's going to come out bad.

[Interviewer]

What would have happened if your kids didn't want to follow you?

[Doug Wilson]

So this was something again that my dad learned from the apostle Paul. But there were four of us growing up in my family, dad's household, and we all knew that if we. If any one of us walked away from the faith, my dad would step down from ministry.

[Interviewer]

So you just living as a practicing Christian isn't enough for you?

[Doug Wilson]

It's not enough, no.

[Interviewer]

What does that look like, though? In America, ruled by Christ, which is what you want?

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah, well, the. The most noticeable things right out of the gate would be things that aren't going on anymore. We wouldn't have clown world. We wouldn't have drag queen story hours. We wouldn't have pride parades. We wouldn't have abortion on demand. You know, we. Those things would be gone.

[Tim Whitaker]

Should we pause?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah, I think. I think so. We're a minute in when they. She says, what would a world run by Christ look like? And he didn't say there would be no poor people. You know, all. All unhoused. People would find homes. You know, people would be able to find health care. We would. We would welcome asylum seekers, and we would be a place where really we loved our neighbor as ourselves. No, he goes to. There'd be no drug story hour, I think. What?

[Tim Whitaker]

And no abortion quote on demand, which, by the way, neither drag queen story hour nor abortions are ever talked about by Christ.

[April Ajoy]

Right. This abortion on demand thing is like a propagandist 100% like saying about, gosh.

[Tim Whitaker]

There'S so many ways to even address this. But to your point, April, this is why we always say that Christian nationalists, while they definitely are participating in a Christian tradition, they are antichrist in what they advocate for. Because you see Doug's sleight of hand here, where he says, in a world ruled by Christ, and then lists out things that Christ never talks about, right? Christ said deliberate the oppressed. Christ said to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to heal the sick. You would think that would lead Doug in his worldview that where America should be ruled by Christ, that those things are being taken care of. But instead he pivots right to sexual orientation. He pivots the culture war issues. And that's because Christian nationalists believe that their God has ordered society a specific way. There's a hierarchical, like, bent to how, how the world functions. Men like him are at the top, and heterosexual men for sure, definitely came right at the top. And then women are underneath and then children underneath that. And there's no room for people that wouldn't submit or be or assimilate into, you know, the sexual norms and, and behaviors that he deems are appropriate. But again, you're not going to find that front by reading the red letters, right?

[April Ajoy]

And he's also, he's like in a. In a world ruled by Christ, he's listing all the things that they're going to take away, right? Like rights that they're taking away. Not. These are things we're going to make better. We're just going to take away things.

[Tim Whitaker]

One of the reasons I love doing these videos is because people who accuse us of being hyperbolic, their arguments go away because we're just playing their own words. Like, I'm playing for you. The person who's discipling Pete Hegseth, or a minute into a 30 minute long interview, and he's already come out swinging by saying, there'd be no drag queen story hour, there'd be no abortions, because that's what Christ would want. Oh, my gosh, it's insufferable.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, let's continue.

[Doug Wilson]

And that would be. Boy, this is different. So the thing that a lot of the people in the middle, let's call them normies, people who are not. They're not particularly theological and they're not hard left either. They're just, you know, I just want to live a normal life. Is that so wrong? The last five years has really unsettled them a great Deal. Because Clown world is not a livable place to bring up kids. It's just not. And a lot of the recoil or the reaction that has happened and a lot of the reason we're getting, the attention we're getting is people are hungry for answers that don't just whitewash it, that don't sugarcoat it. And as I'm fond of saying, it's Christ or chaos. And people say, yeah, looking around, that seems to be the case.

[Interviewer]

So you're seeing a big expansion in membership in these last few years.

[April Ajoy]

Really?

[Interviewer]

Since COVID right?

[Doug Wilson]

Yes, since 2019, our church community here has doubled in size. And during the height of COVID it was like a refugee column. People moving here, chased here by blue state governors, chased here by Covid restrictions, chased here by pastors and elders who flaked on them, who closed their church down. And people, a lot of Christians were discovering that they did not have the Christian leadership that they thought they had.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, we. We gotta pause here. This is actually, you know, one thing I appreciate about Doug Wilson is that he is very clear about the things that have radicalized these folks to go even further to the right. So to be clear, in Doug's mind, Clown world and chaos looks like mask mandates during a pandemic. Social distancing guidelines during a pandemic. It looks like transgender and queer people having access to the same constitutional rights and even some media visibility that folks like Doug are used to having for them. That is what clown world is like. There's no one forcing Doug to divorce his wife and marry a man.

[April Ajoy]

That.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's not happening. But for Doug, just the fact that other people are out there and in some parts of America are being celebrated for who they are, that makes all of this, like, this huge reaction of like, well, the reason why we're exploding is because people are losing their minds at this crazy drift we have as a country. What is the crazy drift? Like, what are we actually talking about here? It's so minimal. We're just expanding visibility for people who historically have been marginalized. And for Doug, that's too big of a. Of a pill to swallow.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and I think a big piece of that, too, is not even that. Like, I feel like a lot of their push is talking about trans people. They think transgender ideology is invading the schools. So what he's talking about is, quote unquote, clown world or whatever he's talking about. It's because right wing media is who cannot stop talking about trans people. Like, trans people have always existed. Always existed. We're just now it just seems like they're everywhere now because right wing media won't stop talking about they're obsessed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. What is the stat that at like the collegiate level, there are out of half a million athletes, there are 10 who are transgender. 10 out of half a million. That is nothing. That is a drop in the bucket. That's not even a drop in the bucket. And yet you would think, based on right wing media, that that, that not only are transgender people like half the population, but they are a contagion that if you're not careful, will spread to you or to your kids. And your kids will be, quote, unquote, trans. Right. This is how the rhetoric works. And so it's just so evident that what, what Doug Wilson is really saying is that we don't like that America had a broader, more diverse set of people being represented in media and being given the same access to rights that I have. And therefore we are doubling down in our resistance to that. In the name of God.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, it's so true. And for, for the record, like, be trans, like, be who you're meant to be. There's absolutely. I just want to make. Make clear, like, we are trans rights or human rights.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

100 podcast people, whatever. But I do just want to point out too, like, he's basing this also on just blatant misinformation. Like the idea that kids now are identifying as cats and so there's litter boxes and classmates. That's not a true story. They ran with that. And now I have people that are in my comments spewing that as if that's fact when it's. It's just there. They've built up. Not only are they at the culture war against legitimate, like, trans people, because they don't like trans people, but they're also inventing stories that aren't true and warring against that and rallying all their base of like, well, teachers are transing your kids. Even Donald Trump said something similar to that in one of the debates. Like, they're just spewing stuff that's just not true.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. And that's because Christian nationalism always needs an out group to scapegoat for society's ills. Right. And usually it's a minority. It's immigrants who are invading the country and destroying your livelihood. It is trans people who are coming after your kids. Right. These are not, these are not powerful groups of people. They are historically either on the fringe of society or they're a minority, or they have less rights than other People, especially if you're undocumented as an immigrant in this country. Yet. Yet people like Doug in that world want to cast all of society's problems on those people. Right. While they ignore the real problem of white nationalism, of white supremacy. I mean, one quick example of this. Right. Is the recent horrific Minneapolis shooting, which was terrible. The person looks like they, in some capacity were transgender. We know that transgender people actually are underrepresented as far as the demographic that commits mass shootings, it's actually white men who are overrepresented in that demographic. Yet if you look at right wing media, they were so quick to blame the person's gender identity for the reason they did that horrific act. But whenever it's a white male who does this. Oh, it's a mental health issue. Oh, it has nothing to do with who they are as a person. Right. Because they're always in service to maintaining power and control at the expense of a minority out group. That's. That's the logic of Christian nationalism.

[April Ajoy]

Right. And. And they just need a point towards anything. Except for the guns.

[Tim Whitaker]

Except for the guns, exactly right.

[April Ajoy]

Which is the actual problem.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%.

[Doug Wilson]

They thought shepherds were supposed to protect the sheep. And when the pressure came, it didn't happen.

[Interviewer]

Would you define yourself as a Christian nationalist?

[Doug Wilson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And how do you define that?

[Doug Wilson]

Well, mostly because I much prefer it to the names I usually get called.

[Interviewer]

How do you define that? Is it, you are a Christian and you want this nation to be a Christian nation?

[Doug Wilson]

I'm a Christian and I'm an American who loves this country. So put those two things together. And since I believe that my Christianity is not something that is to be believed by me behind my eyes and between my ears, it's a public truth.

[Interviewer]

What do you say to people of different faiths all over the world who. Well, I don't believe that. And have a different God, a different understanding of life and how we all came here.

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah. I would say let's have it. Let's have a Bible study. Let's talk about it. Depending on what they've heard, I would want to assure them that the fact that we differ over who God is or differ over ultimate reality does not give me warrant to persecute you.

[Tim Whitaker]

So that's a lie. That is a lie. That is a straight up lie. So Doug Wilson runs or he was the founder of Canon Publishing. Can Canon Press. One of the people that they published under that name was someone named Stephen Wolf, wrote the book the Case for Christian Nationalism. Stephen Wolf, on a podcast, actually you know what, April, let me just pull it up. Let me pull it up real quick and I will grab it for us and we can just watch what Stephen Wolf has to say. Okay, so I, I pulled the clip up. This is Stephen Wolf talking on a podcast about what he envisions to be a Christian nation. This is an unedited clip. This is not. AI. Here's what he has to say for men. And it's saying it like, what, what's gonna, what's gonna prevent us from being Christian nationalists? Well, what's to bring, I mean, to bring it in a Christian nation that follows kind of principles of Christian nationalism. And I think one of it is going to be, I don't think it can happen when women are generally kind of in charge and rule things. That's, and that's because women tend not to, they tend to have, they have very empathetic.

[April Ajoy]

They tend to be more inclusive and.

[Tim Whitaker]

Men tend to be more exclusive and they, they tend to. Yeah, so there's, there's these, there's these different traits that you see between sexes. And in order to have a Christian nation where some, some where blasphemy is.

[April Ajoy]

Punished by someone who seems well meaning.

[Tim Whitaker]

And nice and smiles big, you're going to have to have a guy who.

[April Ajoy]

Says, no, you're going to jail. I mean, or whatever it is that you're finding them. I mean, because, yeah, I'm all for.

[Tim Whitaker]

Ask me a lot, by the way, if, if you're going to suppress atheism, I mean, there might be some very nice guy, has a big smile, loves atheism like, no, atheism's crushed. It's not going to be tolerated. There you go. I don't know, Doug, I, I think maybe you're lying when you say that. I think that under Doug's view of Christian nationalism, other religions and atheists would absolutely be punished by law under blasphemy laws that would be enacted underneath his worldview.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, and he wrote that, he writes that in his book too. Like, he talks about how feminism, empathetic feminism, has been like a downfall of society. And in line with that about punishing those who wouldn't agree, he writes this in his book. He said crafting policy and ethics generally in a fallen world requires us to consider unpleasant trade offs. And magistrates must have the fortitude to enact and enforce the greatest good despite unfortunate costs involved. And Christians should recognize the necessity of such choice and shun the moralism that limits action.

[Tim Whitaker]

Is that Doug, or is that Stephen.

[April Ajoy]

Saying that that's Stephen Wolf from his book the Case for Christian Nationalism, published.

[Tim Whitaker]

Under Doug's Wilson Canon Press.

[April Ajoy]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

So.

[April Ajoy]

Right. And they've never, to my knowledge, fully support and endorse that book.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, 100%. 100%. Do you want to keep going or is there something else that you wanted to respond to?

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah. I want to say too, earlier he said when she asked him if he's a Christian nationalist and he said yes, because I'm a Christian who loves my country. That is a BS definition of Christian nationalism. I am a Christian who loves my country. But I want to say there is a difference between being patriotic and having patriotism versus having nationalism. Because if you, you love your country, it is patriotic to want the most rights for the most people for to, to want a world that is better for everybody. Nationalism, though, is wanting the what's best for your people. For my people.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right.

[April Ajoy]

It's, it's elevates one ideology to the detriment of others. So for him to say I'm a Christian who just loves my country, that's, that's a very cop out way of saying what Christian nationalism actually is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. I mean, both those terms, Christian and nationalists are doing a lot of heavy lifting behind the scenes. Right. So yeah, for a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries and a drink. We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may.

[April Ajoy]

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[April Ajoy]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, the executive director of New Evangelicals. Thank you so much for listening. To our podcast. If you're enjoying these conversations, we would love to invite you to get more.

[Tim Whitaker]

Involved in the TNE community.

[April Ajoy]

You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook to stay connected. But most importantly, check out TNE Connect, our app and online platform where you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Can find courses, resources and a community of people.

[April Ajoy]

People just like you. Whether you're deconstructing, reconstructing, or simply asking the hard questions, TNE Connect is a space for meaningful conversation, learning and encouragement rooted in justice and compassion.

[Tim Whitaker]

You can access [e-mail] connect or by downloading the app. And if you believe in the work that we're doing and want to help.

[April Ajoy]

Us keep going, we'd be so grateful for your support. You can head to our website and make a donation.

[Tim Whitaker]

We can't do any of this without.

[April Ajoy]

You, so thanks again for being on.

[Tim Whitaker]

This journey with us. All right, let's keep it going then.

[Doug Wilson]

We're going to talk about this because the Christian faith does not advance by the sword. The Christian faith advances by preaching the sword of the spirit, planting churches, preaching, declaring, et cetera. So I'd want to visit with them. I'd want to imitate what the Apostle Paul did all through the Book of Acts. He comes to Athens and he preaches Christ and the Resurrection to a city full of idolaters. But he doesn't mount a military campaign.

[Interviewer]

What would you say to historic scholars who say America was not founded as a Christian nation?

[Doug Wilson]

I would have fun with them.

[Interviewer]

Don't you think if the framers had the same vision as you that this is a Christian nation? That they would have made that explanation explicit in the Constitution and not have put in the Establishment clause and the prohibition of religious tests for officeholders? That they would have made explicit documents?

[Doug Wilson]

The federal government. The federal government may not have a church of the United States like the Church of England. The Church of Denmark is the Lutheran Church. They have flat prohibited a church of the United States and they flat prohibited religious tests for office at the federal level.

[Interviewer]

Thomas Jefferson, for his part, was a big proponent of religious liberty. It was one of his big accomplishments. It's on his gravestone that he had this religious liberty law passed in Virginia.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So what would you say to historic scholars who would point to that and say the framers of this country did not mean for this to be a Christian nation. They meant for it to be a nation where people can exercise their religion freely no matter what that religion is.

[Doug Wilson]

First, I would invite these historic scholars in the most friendly way possible to Have a public debate on the subject. I think I'd be. I don't want to. King Ahab in the Old Testament says, let not him who puts on his armor boast like him who takes it off. But I think I would do okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Doug. Just so people know, Doug has no formal training theologically or historically. And I would love to watch Andrew Seidel, our friend over at Americans United, absolutely. Take on Doug's. It would be an absolute bloodbath. I mean, this guy has no defense. Because if you read the Constitution, it's very clear that there is no Christian nation. There is no federal government that's supposed to mandate a certain type of Christianity to. You know, for people like Doug, another way of thinking about them is like, they are Christian supremacists. They believe that they have a calling by God to take over the country and to institute their, you know, very particular view of what they call biblical law and overwrite American civil law with that biblical law that goes against literally just the foundational, you know, First Amendment establishment clause. Like. Like, it's so clear. It does that. But for Doug, he's like, no, it's a Christian nation, and I can go toe to toe with anyone on that and do just fine. Like, well, how, Doug, how.

[April Ajoy]

Because he just has talking points and they have a lot of cognitive dissonance. Because I remember arguing for the same thing of that we were founded as a Christian nation. When people bring up the separation of church and state, I would say, yes, kind of like what he's saying, but that was to keep the government out of churches, not to keep the church out of the government. And it's like a very, very fine line that we were straddling. But it. That's. That's how they justify it.

[Tim Whitaker]

They.

[April Ajoy]

It's just. It's cognitive dissonance. Mental gymnastics.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right? Because I mean, imagine saying that you're all for blasphemy laws when the First Amendment says that. That. That Congress will not make any laws respecting or prohibiting right. The free exercise of religion. Right? So just those two things are at. They are diametrically opposed to each other. But for Doug and these Christian nationalists, somehow through maybe cognitive dissonance, it makes complete sense. It's unbelievable.

[April Ajoy]

I do think he's being a little on good behavior because he's being interviewed by cnn because they would totally rule out other religions. The idea that he would be like, we would just have a conversation like, B.S. yeah, B.S.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, 100%.

[Doug Wilson]

And I think I would do okay because I'd be able to point to the primary documents as well.

[Interviewer]

How would a Muslim or a Mormon or even a Catholic fit into your version of a Christian nation?

[Doug Wilson]

So one of the reasons we have such problems with assimilating Muslims and all these different Hindus is that there are so many of them, right? So if we had a Christian republic and a Muslim came to Disneyland with his family, we have no problem. We have no problems. But when they fill up Dearborn, Michigan, that's just not. You can. It says in Amos three, three can two walk together except they be agreed. You, you cannot put alien worldviews together cheek by jowl and have peace. Right?

[April Ajoy]

So this is so racist and xenophobic.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is, this is, this is Doug. This is why Doug is so dangerous, because he says it so politely. But this is like KKK talking points, okay? This is grand wizard talking points about how, you know, you can't assimilate with different, different people, different ethn, etc. Look, to be clear, I live in New Jersey. April, okay? Eight and a half million people. We are the most densely populated state in America. We have a huge Muslim population. There's a huge Hindu population here. In fact, there's a, There's a mosque 10 minutes down the road from me. And guess what? We get along just fine. Me and my friend Muhammad, whose family was, was arrested by ice, we get along just fine. We sit, we have dinner, we talk about life. We, we, we, we, we discuss different views of our faiths. We. And we get along just fine. But for Doug, there are too many Muslims in America. So what does that mean? This is why Christian nationalists are for mass deportations. You see the logic behind it ultimately, right? America must be kept. Not just a Christian nation, a white Christian nation. This is a white theology, right? Being preached by a man who inhales this stuff and then regurgitates it. And more soft spoken language that becomes more palatable for, for a wider audience. But ultimately Doug wants less brown skinned people in America.

[April Ajoy]

I would just like to point out that According to the 2020 census, it estimated about 4.5 million Muslim Americans live in the United States, which makes up about 1.34%.

[Tim Whitaker]

But there are too many, too many.

[April Ajoy]

There's just so many of them.

[Tim Whitaker]

So many.

[April Ajoy]

So annoying.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's so annoying. It's so annoying. And again, like, this is why we call it white Christian nationalism. It's racism, it's xenophobia. This is what's underneath this. It ain't notice how, by the way, he takes I think Amos 3:3 completely out of context, Right. He just takes this random Bible verse to reinforce his point. Amos is not talking about that. Give me a break, Doug. So frustrating.

[Doug Wilson]

Basically, I think a lot of the religious turmoil that we have, the clashes that we would have, could be addressed by a sane immigration policy, not a policy that tries to regulate what people can say or do in their religious convictions while here.

[Interviewer]

So the foundation for you is you believe this is a Christian nation, despite the debate from historic scholars.

[Doug Wilson]

Exactly. But notice that when the Muslim says to me, who are you to say? I can say, all right, we have to live together. Who are you to say which way it should go? And then the secularist comes in, says, let's do it this way. And Muslim and I would both turn to him and say, and who are you to say?

[Interviewer]

So you feel like we can't have a functioning society?

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah, we can't without.

[Tim Whitaker]

But we do.

[Doug Wilson]

And look at our society currently not function.

[Interviewer]

Do you believe?

[Tim Whitaker]

Notice. Right. Well, that's the thing, Doug says, you know, look at our society not functioning. But who is. Who's the instigator of that? Who are the ones who are irritating the American population? Who stormed the Capitol on January 6th? Right. Whose President is the most dehumanizing, vilifying president in our lifetime, if not all in US History? It's not Joe Biden. It's not Barack Obama. It's Trump who lies the most. It's Trump and his administration, right? So, like, this is what's so interesting, is that they're the ones stirring the pot. They're the ones who are instigating all of this tension and chaos. And then they sit back and go, look, our world's in chaos. You need us in charge so we can make it, you know, out of the chaos can come order. But you're the ones instigating it. You're the ones it's not. Look, Donald Trump is not a Muslim extremist. Right? Doug Wilson is not a Muslim extremist whose mosque doubled in the past three years because Covid and tyranny. No, these are white Christians. They weren't swinging an ISIS flag on January 6th. They were swinging a Christian flag on January 6th. Give me a break. Give me a freaking break.

[April Ajoy]

Gosh, it's so disingenuous, too.

[Tim Whitaker]

So disingenuous to think it's.

[April Ajoy]

We don't function. We can't get along. Like, you are the one who's not getting along with everybody. Everyone else is getting along just fine.

[Tim Whitaker]

By the way, last thought on this, you know, shared values are important. Right. This is, this is why me and my friend Kasser Mashid is a Muslim, we agree on so many things, even though we had different beliefs about God and, you know, our, Our. Our holy books, et cetera, but we share the same values of human life and human equality for all. That's the, that's the Declaration of Independence, right? All men are created equal. But for Doug, that's not really true. See, Doug is the one who actually doesn't believe the American ideals that are in our Declaration of Independence and in our Constitution. Right. He doesn't believe that all men are equal. Some deserve blasphemy laws, some should be deported, Some worship a God that maybe is demonic. Right. And therefore their view isn't as, as worthy as mine. It's. It's really amazing when you start unpacking this stuff, the house of cards that. That is behind all of this.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Shall we continue?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Secular society is basically a religion of its own. That is the antithesis of your Christianity.

[Doug Wilson]

Secularism is a religious faith, religious commitment. Remember what I said about if there is no God above the state, is God. Well, if that's the case for the secularist, and I believe it is, and it's a religious level commitment, it's not, then who's in charge of the current secular gods and how much?

[Tim Whitaker]

That's why we have checks and balances, right? I mean, that's the whole point. The reason why our, our society has a legislative branch, a judicial branch, and an executive branch is that they're designed to be intention. Right. To keep each other in check. What happens when the guy that you elect starts gutting those checks and balances, starts defying court orders? Then he becomes God. He becomes God. Like, I don't know if Doug understands this, but God is not physically embodied anywhere in the world. Jesus is not physically embodied anywhere in the world. So it's up to us as humans to figure out how to make this all work. Right. So, so the. Like. What Doug is saying essentially is that, well, God has to be in charge, AKA we have to be in charge, because we. We represent the interests of God. Talk about arrogance and pride. Egotistical.

[April Ajoy]

So much pride. Pride comes before the fall.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, that's in the Bible, Doug.

[April Ajoy]

I'm gonna be a literalist and believe in that right now.

[Interviewer]

Is your post millennialism belief driving all of this?

[Doug Wilson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Tell our viewers about that. What that is.

[Doug Wilson]

Most American evangelicals are premillennial, meaning that they believe everything's falling apart, and when things get really bad, the Antichrist is going to take over and then Jesus will come again and save us from all that. But it's a pretty grim view of human history between now and the end. So that's the pre millennial understanding. A post millennialist is someone who believes that the Gospel is going to be victorious in the world. The nations will in fact be discipled.

[Interviewer]

And you have said I don't have a direct pipeline to Pete Hegseth. But don't you think you're influenced? Influence?

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't believe that for a second.

[Interviewer]

Is having an impact right now.

[Doug Wilson]

I hope so. I write books and I don't write and publish books to launch them into the void. I want people to read them and be influenced by them. And when people read them and are influenced by them and they're in a position to actually do something, that's very. It's gratifying. Yes, I'm happy about that.

[Interviewer]

Because for many years, decades, frankly, your views were really seen as. As fringe.

[Doug Wilson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Now do you see.

[Doug Wilson]

Not by me, not by my wife.

[Interviewer]

Not by you or your wife or your community, but they were, they were seen as fringe. Do you now see them becoming more mainstream?

[Doug Wilson]

Yes, I, I do.

[Tim Whitaker]

I want to pause here. I. I want to pull something up and I want to read you an excerpt from one of Doug Wilson's books. Okay. This is an excerpt from one of Doug Wilson's books, the book Southern Slavery as it Was, which he wrote with a white supremacist. By the way, this is a quote that he pulls for his own blog purposes. Okay, so I'm p. What Doug posted on his own blog. Here's the full quote. Quote. Slavery as existed in the south was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity. Because of its predominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence. There has never been a multiracial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world. The credit for this must go to the predominance of Christianity. The gospel enabled men who were distinct in nearly every way, to live and work together, to be friends and often intimates. This happened to such an extent that moderns indoctrinated on civil rights propaganda would be thunderstruck to know the half of it. Slave life was to the slaves a life of plenty of simple pleasure, of food, clothes, and good medical care. In spite of the evils contained in the system, we cannot overlook the benefits of slavery. For both blacks and whites, slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can never say that. I'm sorry. That we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the war or since. That's a real quote from Doug Wilson.

[April Ajoy]

Full quote before. I've heard excerpts from that excerpt, but that full thing is so damning. What on earth are you talking about?

[Tim Whitaker]

This is the man who is saying how he was fringe, but now he's not anymore, and who, you know, is happy that Pete Hexith reads his writings. Is it any wonder why Pete Hegseth is currently spending 10 million taxpayer dollars to restore Confederate monuments as we speak? Guys, the link is right there. Like, we're showing you the link directly.

[April Ajoy]

I have zero doubts that if Doug Wilson lived during the time leading up, like, the antebellum period before the Civil War, he would have owned slaves for sure.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right wing pundits would have.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, absolutely. Like the. It is so maddening to me that instead of looking at, you know what, maybe we should reevaluate some of our beliefs because some people used our belief system to justify owning black people, and we should reevaluate that because that's not okay. But instead, no, he's like, actually, it's just proof of how our true. Our beliefs are because we were kind to them.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

What are you talking about? Also, like, he has a very white. Speaking of whitewashed, he brought that up earlier. He is the one whitewashing this history. Like, they're like the. The. The thousands of accounts of white slave masters who were violent and raped the people that they owned and beat them and killed them and sold them and trafficked them.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And that he. And he could write that to be like, oh, no, that's just proof that we are good godly people. Like, what on earth is he talking about?

[Tim Whitaker]

This is literal lost cosmology. Like, this is someone who thinks the Confederacy wasn't that bad. It was pretty great. Slavery was actually beneficial. But again, this is. This is not as uncommon in evangelicalism as you would think. I mean, John MacArthur, we played a couple weeks ago a section of him talking about how slavery can be great if you have the right master. Right. And John MacArthur was another big name in white evangelicalism. So again, this space is steeped in, like this, you know, downplaying or minimizing at best, of slavery and in some cases, actually making it seem like it was a good thing for black people. And this is a man. I want to be so clear to the audience. This is a man that Pete Hegseth reads. This is a man that is highly influential in politics right now. They actually planted. Doug Wilson just planted a church right in the heart of D.C. and Pete Hegseth attended it. Okay.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I. I know. Well, and this also plays into the whole Manifest Destiny thing. Like when. When, you know, we came over and we colonized and did committed genocide against indigenous people. There was this belief then that, yeah, maybe we took rights away and land away from these people and kicked them out of their homes, but we brought them Jesus, and there's no greater gift they can have the way that they can, like, justify it. Ah, it's just so terrible. And the same thing with the slave trade, too. There was this belief that if you were in Africa, you were worshiping all these demonic entities and that voodoo was satanic, and then you saved them from that. And, yeah, technically, you owned them. And they. They weren't really full people, but at least they knew Jesus. I think Jamar Tisby, he had this quote in his book the Color of Compromise, which, if you want. If you want a true history of the racism in the white evangelical church, like that book, it will wreck you. Blew my mind.

[Tim Whitaker]

Same.

[April Ajoy]

But he talks about how the gospel that was given to enslaved people was that God could save your soul but not break your chains.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly, exactly. And this is. This kind of ideology is what's now popular again in white evangelicalism and now has major access to political power.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah. All right, let's continue.

[Doug Wilson]

They have become. My views on a number of things have become steadily more mainstream and done that without me moving at all.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's true.

[Interviewer]

You think people have come to you.

[Doug Wilson]

They'Ve come to yours. So basically, what has happened as the whole zeitgeist of the official zeitgeist has moved steadily left into more and more woke territory. A number of normies, as I call them earlier, looked at where that was going and said, I don't want to go there. And so they. Maybe we ought to give that Wilson character a second look. He sounded pretty crazy 20 years ago, but I'm rethinking that.

[Interviewer]

And what are you seeing happen in the Trump administration right now that reflects your Christian values?

[Doug Wilson]

The series of appointments in the federal judgeship that led to the overturning of Roe would be the. The central thing if our church doesn't have a spire with a bell in it yet. But if we had the bell, that would have been when Dobbs came down. We would have been ringing it all day.

[Interviewer]

And you want to see Obergefell.

[Doug Wilson]

I want to see Obergefell. Go the same there it is direction.

[Tim Whitaker]

There it is. Look, April, you and I have been saying this for years. A burger fell's on the table. And we were told by a lot of people, no, that's extreme. No, it would never happen.

[April Ajoy]

No, we were mongering.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. No, it's. This is. And they have. There's a whole dark money side to this. There are billionaire organizations that are funded by billionaires that, that, that, that. That have the legal ability to challenge these things up to the Supreme Court. That is ruled by the right. Right now. Okay? A burger fell is absolutely on the table. Absolutely. It is. It is gonna. It's already gonna be challenged. I mean, they already made it. Made a petition to the court to challenge it. This is what they want. They want a country where women have no bodily autonomy. They want a country where even birth control pills are washed down the drain. They want a country where queer people are forced back into the closet. This is what they want. And because they're getting access to political power, they could be more and more open about it. Right? I mean, even the Southern Baptist Convention, the biggest evangelical like conglomerate conglomeration in America, they voted on a resolution to overturn a burger fell.

[April Ajoy]

Right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Wake up, guys. This is what's coming.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and, and I think it's important because if you just listen to what he said earlier where he was talking about, we want this. We want to change this to be a Christian nation by just persuasion, by just conversations. We're not bringing a sword. But what they are bringing is legislating their belief system that is going to oppress every. Sing, everybody. It's going to oppress everybody except for white males.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right? Yep. That is their sword.

[April Ajoy]

Christian males.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Like that, that. And so he could say, like, well, we're not going to be violent, but when you are telling a woman that she is not in control of her own body and that that body belongs to whatever man she's with or the government, that is a form of violence. That. That sort of oppression. Like, just because you're not bringing a literal sword doesn't mean that your ideology and what you are fighting for is not violent.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. There's no reason to have physical violence when you're the ones in control writing the laws and can enforce it with violence if you want to. Right. That's what they want.

[Doug Wilson]

Very pleased with the. The naming of the. Just the fraudulent behavior that has. Overseeing the squandering of trillions of dollars. One of my old jokes was that I'm opposed to chaplains praying at Congress because the Bible says not to turn a den of thieves into a house of prayer. And it's just the pillage that is going on there has been remarkable. And I'm just very gratified at the efforts of Doge and other things like that to put a spotlight on those sorts of things.

[April Ajoy]

Take money away from. From people who need it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And do do do has been thoroughly debunked. It did nothing. It did nothing besides hurt more people. By the way, just a quick antidote here. Doug Wilson, when 911 happened, said the worst thing about 911 was not the plans going into the towers. It was the ecumenical church service that happened in Congress where they had a female pastor praying and they had a Sikh praying. Oh, yeah. There's audio of this. We shared it on our podcast. I think it's episode 66. We share that audio. That's what Doug Wilson said was the worst part of 9 11. Like, again, this guy is an extremist. Just because he talks like Grandpa and looks like Santa Claus doesn't mean he's somehow benign or, like, not dangerous. He is a. He is a Christian supremacist extremist who believes this stuff. He believes it.

[April Ajoy]

And that's not even getting into his wife. Who promotes.

[Doug Wilson]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Child abuse.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Hitting your children.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sure he'll get into it.

[Interviewer]

What about banning transgender military members?

[Doug Wilson]

Oh, that's great.

[Interviewer]

You think that's great?

[Doug Wilson]

That's absolutely great.

[April Ajoy]

Why?

[Interviewer]

And why Gender.

[Doug Wilson]

Gender issues. As I mentioned before the interview, I. I was in the submarine service, for example, and whatever idiot thought of putting women on submarines.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, what would you say to a.

[Interviewer]

Female submariner who's been doing the job and kicking butt. Doing it?

[Doug Wilson]

I'd say, yeah, we don't want you down here kicking butt.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Doug Wilson]

Because we. I went to sea a couple of times. We were submerged for two and a half months.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, all right.

[Doug Wilson]

Two and a half months. 100, let's say 130 guys in a submarine with three women on it. Okay, so let's put 130 horny sailors and three women and submerge them out in the middle of the Atlantic for two and a half months. What could go wrong?

[April Ajoy]

So I'd say, come on, you have a.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you want to respond to that, April?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I would just like to say control your own dick, Doug. Sorry. Can I say that you can do with women like you're the. If it's a. That is a problem with the men, that's nothing to do with the women. Also, that's like, totally homophobic too. Like, you don't think any of the men were attracted to each other?

[Doug Wilson]

Right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Like I'm telling you, man, this is.

[Tim Whitaker]

How Doug sees the world. Like, like women are to be at home, women are to make sandwiches and have babies. He says that on his own blogs. Like all these things I'm saying there are receipts for. With this man. This is what he believes.

[April Ajoy]

It infuriates me to no end that people like Doug Wilson are like, women are the weaker vessel. They should not be in charge. Men need to be in charge. But suddenly a man can't control himself if he's in a submarine and there's a woman around.

[Tim Whitaker]

Nope, can't do it.

[April Ajoy]

Maybe that. Maybe women aren't the weaker vessel, Doug.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, that's the same thing with trans women, right? Is that okay? So they're too weak to serve in the military, but they're too strong to compete in sports. Like I'm, like I'm picked out of struggle. Yeah. Like, what's the strug here? Like what, what is the threat that you're talking about?

[April Ajoy]

It's so stupid.

[Interviewer]

Oh, it's so dumb view of how society should be.

[Doug Wilson]

Sure. Yeah, yeah. There's certain, there are certain places that ought to be male only spaces and combat is one of them. And being closed up in a submarine is, is another one. And you know, I've.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's who.

[Doug Wilson]

So what it boils down to is, is that sort of thing. Egalitarianism has been the basic platform and feminism is a subset of egalitarianism. And you can't split the difference on this sort of thing. So if you're going to have a submarine, you have to make a decision who's going to be on it.

[April Ajoy]

No, you don't.

[Tim Whitaker]

Qualify.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. If you just have adults in the room. And newsflash, Doug, there are men out there that could be in a submarine with women and everything's fine. Everything's fine because they're not douchebags.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like how, how about Doug, right, like the army sets standards for how a submarine should be operated, and whoever can pass those standards, regardless of what's between their legs or their sexual orientation, can, can do the job. Like, how about we just do that? I mean, this isn't that complicated, right? Isn't this, isn't this, you know, a meritocracy? You know, if you're qualified to do the job, you should be able to do the job. And this is what Doug wants. He doesn't want DEI hires, he wants meritocracy. Well, here you go. It's not complicated, Doug. It's not complicated.

[April Ajoy]

And I love how too they claim that drag queens are sexualizing our children. And trans people and gay people and queer people, like in society, sexualizing our children. Doug Wilson and his ilk are the people that are sexualizing children that are telling girls to cover up their shoulders because a man might lust after you. Well, that's not on the girl.

[Doug Wilson]

Hey there.

[April Ajoy]

I am Susan and I live in Southern Illinois. I have been a T and E donor two different times.

[Tim Whitaker]

Now.

[April Ajoy]

One of the things that's most important to me is that Tim and the board are fully committed to transparency and honesty. They don't want donors to feel as if though we are being coerced, as often happens within church environments. I am grateful for Tim and all that he has accomplished. I look forward to the future and believe that fundraising is a necessary aspect for growth to allow tne to provide these resources where they are needed most.

[Tim Whitaker]

You. You know that, that Doug wrote like an erotic novel, right? About like a robot, A sex robot?

[April Ajoy]

No. What?

[Tim Whitaker]

You didn't know this? Hold on.

[April Ajoy]

What is it?

[Tim Whitaker]

Look, here it is. Yeah, it's called Ride Sally Ride. It's a novel about love, the crackup of the USA and refusing to back down when the whole world call calls you crazy. The it's two decades in the future and a Christian college student named Ace Hartwick has just destroyed his neighbor's so called wife. Actually a sexbot named Sally and a trash compactor. Soon Ace will be on trial for murder. Unfortunately for Ace, everyone despises his kind of radical Christianity. And the. And in the fragile America of the future, all the juries are fixed. It's a real thing.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, according to the front cover it was. Oh, apparently he wrote Evangely Fish and that was Christianity Today's best fiction winner.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here we go. I don't know. Here's a little excerpt I'm going to read. This is not safe for work, but this is Doug Wilson, the man of family values, impurity, all this stuff. Quote, this is from his book Ride Sally Ride. He walked into their house and noticed that no lights were on except in the back of the house. He followed the light down the hallway and looked in on what had to be the master bedroom. Sally was propped up against the headboard, blindfolded and topless. Yeah, this is Doug Wilson. Yeah. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

That's confusing again, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, like, like they're not sexualizing anything. They're not sexualizing children. By the way, Doug Wilson, also married off a known pedophile in his church to a woman. And that man reoffended with his own infant. Okay, look up the case of Steven Sitler that. This is all stuff. You can look up, friends. I'm not lying to you. This is the fam. This is the people who's like, oh, society's gone too far to the left. You know, transgender people and queer people. Oh, my Drag Queen story hour. Meanwhile, this guy is marrying off actual pedophiles to women in his church.

[April Ajoy]

Geez. I will say I don't know the plot, like, where he goes in his novel, but I do think sex robot is actually what they want out of women. They want a woman that will come in and be their doormat and do whatever they want and have sex with them whenever they want and that's it. And become fully, fully controlled by the husband 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, that it's the handmaid sale, right? I mean, wasn't that Michael Knowles the other day who literally said that it's a wife's duty to give her husband sex whenever she wants? That's what robots do. They do whatever you want whenever you want.

[April Ajoy]

And Joel Webbing recently, too, another Christian nationalist pastor recently said that he doesn't think women should even be in the public sphere.

[Doug Wilson]

Either the egalitarian, secular, egalitarian worldview will prevail or a patriarchal Christian worldview will prevail or a patriarchal Muslim view. You know, you're. Somebody's going to have to decide.

[Interviewer]

But bottom line, do you believe men and women are equal in society?

[Doug Wilson]

Well, they are in our society, but they're not equal in the world.

[Interviewer]

What do you mean by that?

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah, because men and women are different. They're just different. So when I said I don't want women in combat, it's not an arbitrary rule. It's not like we want the women to stand on this side of the room and the men to stand on that side. There's certain things that men do better than women do. There's certain things that women do better than the men do. And I think we should let scripture and natural revelation tell us which is which. Men are good at smashing and breaking things. They're good at fighting. And when you have this egalitarian dogma that women and men are have to be the same, what happens is it's like saying everybody has to be able to dunk the basketball. If you've got an egalitarian dogma that says everyone has to be able to dunk, the only thing you're going to wind up doing is lowering the net. And. And so consequently, you've got firemen. Fire. You know, one of the things that Pete Hegseth has done is instead of making a regulation concerning the women, he just said, we're back to uniform standard of fitness, by the way, for going into certain avenues.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is. This has been debunked. There was never, like, a women's standard and a men's standard in the military. Okay. This has been like a debunked thing since the beginning. It is. Oh, God, it's just so insufferable that, like, again, Doug wants a society he thinks that women are good for, really two things. Serving men, submitting to men, and making babies for men. That's his view of, well, of course women can do things that men can't do. Women can serve men, and men don't serve men. Women serve men. That's what he's saying. That's what he believes.

[April Ajoy]

Men don't serve women.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of course not.

[April Ajoy]

Men can fight and men can dunk. I would bet my money that Doug Wilson cannot dunk a basketball.

[Tim Whitaker]

I've guaranteed, guaranteed like and like.

[April Ajoy]

And that's the thing. They bring these, like, when they bring up the gender, like, well, men can do this and women can't do this. They're. It's usually physical abilities, and usually what they say are things that most men also cannot do and that some women can do.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, I would love to see Doug in the ring with a professional female boxer. I would love to see it, like, go ahead, go ahead, smash things better than her.

[April Ajoy]

People are just different. It really has no bearing on whether they're male or female. People in general are just different. There's. I am better at sports than a lot of men, and there's a lot better than me that are better cooks than I am. And this has nothing to do with us being male or female. It's just like we're just made different. And that's like, the beauty of the diverse world that God created. Like, we all have different abilities and different talents, and it has nothing to do with what's between our legs.

[Tim Whitaker]

Agreed. Agreed. Doug, are you listening, Doug?

[Doug Wilson]

Places. And that de facto is going to exclude many of the women. Right.

[Interviewer]

But do you think the underlying premise was what you're saying, Women shouldn't be in combat.

[Tim Whitaker]

Correct.

[Interviewer]

Our viewers might hear that and think, he wants to turn this into a totalitarian, patient, patriarchal society. He wants to turn America into Gilead with handmaids.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[Interviewer]

What do you say to that?

[Doug Wilson]

What I want to do is keep women out of submarines, which is not totalitarianism.

[Interviewer]

That's one example.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[Doug Wilson]

Well, you've got to decide which way you're going to go. So, for example, when you send Bruno into shower with the junior high girls and. And you force that on them and you arrest parents who protest at the school board meeting, I would call that totalitarian. And what I'm trying to is, it's. I'm not fond of quoting Vladimir Lenin positively, but he once said, who, whom, who, whom. Who's doing what to whom. So when someone says, oh, you're imposing on the woman who wants to be a fighter pilot, that her wants to be a submarine, you know, submariner, you're imposing on her. I say, yes, but what you're doing is imposing on other people. You're imposing your worldview on other people. There's no way you see it.

[Interviewer]

They can't coexist.

[Doug Wilson]

There's no way that antithetical worldviews can exist without one imposing on the other.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, go ahead.

[April Ajoy]

What he's. That comparison is so disingenuous. When he says, you're imposing Bruno on junior high girls, first of all, I'm assuming he's talking about a trans girl who's probably not going by Bruno.

[Tim Whitaker]

Probably.

[April Ajoy]

And is identifying and is a woman. Like, the problem is, is they don't see trans women as women. They see them as men pretending to be women with the intention of preying on women, which is so stupid because men assault and prey on women every single second of every single day. And no one has to pretend to be a woman to do that. In fact, with the vitriol that trans people face, no man is going to go through the effort of transitioning socially with the sole purpose of praying on women. You can pray on women for free. You do. They do it all the time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ajoy]

If you really want to prey on women, go be a pastor. 100 free reign to pray on women. No accountability. It's so disingenuous. But like, what he's. And then to compare that to telling a woman, sorry, you can't be a fighter pilot because you have a vagina, like, that's actually oppressive. Like the trans women. Like, I know trans people, okay? I'm married to a non binary. My spouse is non binary. And like, as a result, we've met tons of trans people in the last few years and they are amazing. And I will tell you, when the trans people that I know have so much anxiety when they have to go to the bathroom Yep. Because they are scared of. Of what they might face in that bathroom. They want to go in just. And just be another per. Like, they want to be invisible. They don't want to be noticed. It's not about being noticed. It's about being who you are. And like, trans people today are some of the bravest people in the world. To. To live in this society as your full self when your full self is constantly being demonized is honestly just such a brave. It's when people like Doug exist and they just want to terrorize trans people for no reason.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

It's. Oh, it just infuriates me to no end. They're not. Trans people are not predators. The predators are in the freaking pews.

[Tim Whitaker]

Trans people are four times more likely to experience violence than their cisgender counterparts. Okay? Like, this is the reality. And for Doug, in his mind, it's an act of war for trans people to exist and be able to use facilities that correspond to their gender identity. Right. Like a trans woman using the bathroom in a mall on the female side is an act of war for Doug. Doug will never be in that bathroom. Doug will never be in that bathroom. Right, because he's a man. But for him, just the thought of that happening in America is an act of war. It's ridiculous. And again, think about, like, all the other things that are such. More that are more pressing than that, like the fact that a lot of Americans go bankrupt because of medical debt. There are millions of Americans who don't want to call an ambulance when they're in need because they can't afford the bill. That's a way more pressing issue, Doug, than a trans woman using a female bathroom to relieve themselves. Like, give me a break. Give me a break, dude.

[April Ajoy]

There's also a lot of, like, businesses and restaurants that have started using gender neutral bathrooms, either in addition to male and female having a gender neutral option or just making single use stalls, all gender neutral. And people like Doug fight against that because they say it's woke ideology, but that's actually a part. That's a really great compromise. If you don't want trans people in your bathroom, then give them an option to have a bathroom that they can use on their own. And they're against that too, because they.

[Tim Whitaker]

Don'T want them to exist. This is Christian nationalism on display, right? Things that, that, that, that go outside their hierarchies and their gender norms cannot exist. That's why Michael Knowles said that we have to, quote, eradicate transgenderism. Right? It's not about Making room or accommodating or even just giving them their space and leaving them alone. That even just leaving them alone. But knowing they exist is too far for these people. You have to be aware of this. This is, this is, this is the goal, friends. And I, I don't like to speak so extreme, you know, but they want these people erased. They want them erased. They want them not to exist. It's a major problem.

[April Ajoy]

So I was in a bathroom with a trans woman like a month ago.

[Tim Whitaker]

True story.

[April Ajoy]

And do you know what happened?

[Tim Whitaker]

Tell me.

[April Ajoy]

I was wearing a jumpsuit. Right. So you have to like completely. It's a. It's effort. And I couldn't button. I couldn't button the top back myself. I couldn't reach it. And she buttoned it for me and she was very helpful and very kind and we had a great chat.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Ajoy]

That was it.

[Tim Whitaker]

That was it, huh?

[April Ajoy]

That was it, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow. Wow.

[April Ajoy]

I can't believe I was very underwhelmed. I was, I was promised this huge, dramatic situation to happen and it just. It just wasn't there.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, let's keep it going.

[Interviewer]

Have this community here in Moscow. You built this Christian community. Why isn't enough to just live that way and let everyone else live the way they want in America, we're happy.

[Doug Wilson]

To live that way as long as they let us. Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Which they do.

[Doug Wilson]

But it's not going to shake out that way.

[Tim Whitaker]

What do you mean?

[Doug Wilson]

It's got to give at some point. Right. So here's an example. The logic of egalitarianism means that daughters are. Our daughters are going to be drafted at some point.

[April Ajoy]

No, it doesn't.

[Doug Wilson]

To go fight in some stupid foreign.

[Interviewer]

So you see the slippery slope.

[Doug Wilson]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's a. I've lived on this slippery slope my entire life.

[Interviewer]

But other people.

[April Ajoy]

Pause just right. Phyllis Schlafly, back in the 70s use this exact same fear mongering that your daughters will be drafted to fight feminism and the era back then.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And it never happened. And to be clear, I'm against the draft for anybody. I'm more of a pacifist. I think war is stupid. But his, his arg. What he's saying right here is just. It's just never going to happen.

[Tim Whitaker]

Realities that aren't existing. Doug's been. Been a pastor for I think close to 30, maybe 40 years. And he's been able to do whatever he's wanted to do for that time. And he still thinks that he's at any minute going to be under attack. And that there's a war raging. The guy has tried to take over the town of Moscow, Idaho, for crying out loud. Give me a break, dude. You have a small empire, and you're like, it's just not enough. Any day now, I could be persecuted for this.

[April Ajoy]

Their biggest talking point is a slippery slope.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, completely.

[April Ajoy]

It's just a logical fallacy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right.

[Interviewer]

Slippery slope with your view that women's rights are just gradually taken away, for example.

[Doug Wilson]

Sure. But the slippery slope that I'm talking about is the one that we're actually sliding down.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, are you. You kidding me?

[Doug Wilson]

So the thing.

[Interviewer]

You don't think they're sliding down your slippery slit?

[Doug Wilson]

I do believe. Let's put it this way. I do believe that there have been instantiations of Christianity and politics that have gone very badly, you know, like what Spanish Inquisition? Or, you know, there are things like that that I think, okay, that's. That's no good, and we should never do that again. I'm an advocate of Christendom, but the first Christendom had some warts that had some things that we don't ever want to do again. So there are slippery slopes on the Christian side of things, and I think we should guard against those things. But right now, that's not anywhere close to being our central problem.

[Interviewer]

You basically think you're David and David and Goliath.

[Tim Whitaker]

I should be clear. We had an insurrection with the Christian flags a couple years ago, and that's.

[April Ajoy]

Not a slippery slope.

[Tim Whitaker]

Doug thinks that. That there's no slippery slope that we're experiencing as Christians right now. Okay, okay. Okay, Doug. Got it, buddy.

[Interviewer]

So over my shoulder right here, there is a poster of the COVID of a book, and it says, it's good to be a man.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[Interviewer]

What does that mean?

[Doug Wilson]

It means that this is a. That book is an argument that is a defensive reaction defending young men who don't know who they are because they have been taught their entire life that white heterosexual males are cancerous.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, they are committing most of the mass shootings. So I'm just saying. Doug, like, to be clear, I'm being facetious. I don't really believe that white men like myself are cancerous. But, I mean, again, if they reuse their own logic, they would be, like, all over this. Like, whoa, we have a white men violent. We have a white violent men epidemic in this country. Look at all the mass shootings that keep on committing. But no, that now they're actually victims. These poor white men are victims of something else.

[April Ajoy]

Right?

[Doug Wilson]

So Masculinity is tagged as toxic masculinity. If you, if a boy acts like a boy in school, we hit him in the head with a chemical rock. We don't. Because we, we don't know how to discipline them. We don't know how to make boys stand up straight. We don't know how to make them work hard. We don't know how to train.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll probably say adhd, boys who are.

[Doug Wilson]

Going to become men. One of the books that I wrote was called Future Men because Boys Become boyhood should be aimed at manhood. And it's. And boys and girls are not the same. And so you have to train them. You have to train girls to be women, and you have to train boys to be men. And if you don't do that and you spend your time attacking boys for masculine traits, they're gonna, they're gonna grow up to be pretty screwed up.

[Interviewer]

And right now, a lot of people believe that there's a masculinity crisis in the United States. Just when you look at the data of, you know, school test scores, graduation rates, that kind of thing, are you seeing absolutely more men be drawn to your church?

[Doug Wilson]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Right now?

[Doug Wilson]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

The.

[Doug Wilson]

One of the, one of the things that is attractive to many of the people who have come here is that we're not apologetic about the masculinity that is present here now. We're. Neither are we apologetic for the femininity. But then as soon as you say masculinity, femininity, people say, you're stereotype. You're stereotyping.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're saying, okay, why don't we. I want to pause here and just. I want to say something. Don't forget, this is a masculinity that, that apologizes for slavery or sorry, that. That, that, that defends slavery. This is a masculinity that thinks that you're so strong and tough until you're around a woman in a submarine. This is a masculinity that demands people submit to you so you can control them. This is a masculinity that wants blasphemy laws put into place in our country, that wants Muslims kicked out, that wants queer people erased. This sounds like a pretty snowflake level masculinity that can't tolerate anything that might make it uncomfortable on any level. And even going further, maybe even learning something new and changing one's mind.

[April Ajoy]

I. It's so wild to me, and, and again, disingenuous that he would say, oh, you know, masculinity now it's Toxic masculinity. That's not true. No one's ever said all masculinity is toxic. There are toxic forms of masculinity, and that is what we are talking about. Oh, I wonder if that's why Alibastucky used the word toxic for empathy. If it was. If it was like a mirror for toxic masculinity, which is actually a thing. There is no such thing as toxic empathy. I mean, maybe when I feel empathetic, when I sometimes see Trump and he looks sad, I'm like, oh, poor Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

If I'm going to be fair. Right. I understand how in some spaces on the Internet, maybe if you say the wrong thing as a man, you kind of get lumped in with, like, other men that are problematic. Right. Like, I've seen that in, like, in, like, progressive spaces before. I understand that. No, no space is perfect. No, we're never going to find, you know, heaven on earth, so to speak, in this lifetime. I get that. So certainly there are critiques to make. We should have the conversation. But what Doug is talking about is he's defending the kind of masculinity that gets away with, like, sexually assaulting women, that thinks it's that. That thinks that someone's wife is. Owes them sex whenever they want. Right. Someone who thinks it's appropriate to marry off a known pedophile to a younger woman in the church.

[April Ajoy]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. That kind of masculinity is toxic because it hurts people and it's unaccountable and it's unrepentant and it can't look inward and critique itself to do better.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and to be fair, Doug Wilson's form of masculinity is toxic. I mean, he was literally just talking about how he doesn't want women in combat. He doesn't believe women should be fighter pilots. He doesn't believe women should do what it's what a man's job is. That is toxic. That is. That is misogynistic and sexist.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%. 100%. Oh, I think because we're over the hour, Mark, I think we should pause here and we can do a part two next week because I don't want to, like, fast forward and miss all the stuff that needs to be responded to. But we're also kind of long in this episode, as is typical for us, because there's always so much to say. So I think we can pause here and we'll come back next week. Thoughts?

[April Ajoy]

What, Mark? What minute, Mark are we at? So we're at.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah, we're at the 1950 mark, so we got about, about 12 minutes left in this interview.

[April Ajoy]

Okay. Yeah. And we haven't even got to the repealing of the 19th.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. There's still some big, some, some big bombs to drop. Friends, look, if you're looking for a better way forward when it comes to like, what do we do with this stuff, I really recommend getting involved in the new evangelicals community app called TNE Connect. We're actually starting Theology 101 classes. We have an starter pack that we're doing. We're doing a whole back to school series and it's completely free. There is no cost to join. It's called TNE Connect. You can do it on the web or do it on your, your App Store, Android or, or Apple. It's a great way to kind of find that better path forward that, that is not just critical of this kind of stuff that April and I do, but also offers you other ways to move forward, either as a Christian or someone who wants to find a more justice oriented way of living in, in life. So I recommend checking that out. But yeah, I mean, I think for now this is, this is a good place to pause.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Until next time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

A joyous interview to watch. Just makes you feel so good and a joyous.

[Tim Whitaker]

A joy. A joyous April. A joy.

[April Ajoy]

A wit, a bit of joy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I love it. Friends, make sure to subscribe to the channel like this video. We'll see you all next time.

[April Ajoy]

Bye, Sam.