The Tim & April Show

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)

Episode 44: "Doug Wilson's Dreadful Vision for a Christian America"

Release Date: September 9, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy dive deep into a recent CNN interview with controversial Christian nationalist pastor Doug Wilson. Responding in real-time to the full 30-minute CNN segment, Tim and April analyze Wilson’s vision for a "Christian America," unpacking the origins, ideology, and real-world dangers of Christian nationalism. The conversation is rooted in a commitment to a Christian worldview of justice, love, and inclusivity, with the hosts determined to shine a light on the threat posed by Wilson’s mainstreaming theological and political views. Listeners should expect a passionate, incisive, and sometimes fiery critique of Christian nationalism and the figures responsible for its spread.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Focus on Doug Wilson?

[03:05 – 05:44]

• Tim recounts the CNN interview dropping during his month off, noting TNE’s longstanding concern about Wilson's influence.
• Tim: "[Doug Wilson is] one of the most influential Christian nationalists of our time. In fact, he's actually Pete Hegseth's pastor, and one of my critiques... was that no one in Congress asked Pete about Doug Wilson. And then CNN drops this piece and Doug goes mega viral for all the wrong reasons."

2. Wilson’s Vision for a "Christian America" (and What’s Omitted)

[06:12 – 08:13]

• Wilson describes an America "ruled by Christ" where “clown world” things like drag queen story hour, pride parades, and abortion are gone.
• April: "He didn’t say there would be no poor people... people would have homes... we would love our neighbor. No, he goes to, 'there’d be no drag story hour.'"
• Tim: “Neither drag queen story hour nor abortions are ever talked about by Christ.”
• April: "Abortion on demand is a propagandist 100% saying."

3. Christian Nationalism vs. The Way of Jesus

[08:13 – 09:43]

• Tim explains: “Christian nationalists, while they definitely are participating in a Christian tradition, they are antichrist in what they advocate for.”
• Wilson’s “world ruled by Christ” is devoid of concepts actually grounded in Christ’s words, pivoting instead to culture war topics.

4. The "Clown World" Narrative and COVID Radicalization

[11:03 – 12:55]

• Wilson frames mask mandates, social distancing, and increased LGBTQ visibility as "chaos" triggering mass migration to his church.
• Tim: "For Doug, just the fact that other people are out there and in some parts celebrated... makes this huge reaction."
• April: “Trans people have always existed. We’re just now... it just seems like they're everywhere because right-wing media won't stop talking about [them].”

5. Scapegoating Minorities, Misinformation, and Christian Nationalist Growth

[13:32 – 16:52]

• April notes right-wing media inventions (e.g., "litter boxes in classrooms") stoking outrage that isn’t rooted in reality.
• Tim: "Christian nationalism always needs an out group to scapegoat for society's ills... Usually it's a minority."
• Discussion of media distortion following mass shootings.

6. Wilson’s Christian Nationalism—Definition and Dishonesty

[17:08 – 21:15]

• Wilson openly affirms he’s a Christian nationalist, but offers a "BS definition" conflating it with mere patriotism.
• April: "There is a difference between being patriotic... versus nationalism... Nationalism... elevates one ideology to the detriment of others."
• Tim and April debunk his supposed religious tolerance by playing a clip (from Stephen Wolf on Canon Press, Wilson’s publishing arm) openly discussing blasphemy laws and suppression of atheism and other beliefs.

7. Historical Revisionism: "America as a Christian Nation"

[24:58 – 28:28]

• The hosts call out Wilson’s lack of historical training and his willful misrepresentation of the founders' intent for the U.S. as secular and religiously pluralistic.
• Tim: "If you read the Constitution, it's very clear... there is no federal government that's supposed to mandate a certain type of Christianity..."

8. Racism and Xenophobia on Display

[28:40 – 31:44]

• Wilson complains there are “so many” Muslims and Hindus in America, suggesting a need for “sane immigration policy.”
• April: “This is so racist and xenophobic... According to the 2020 census, about 4.5 million Muslim Americans live in the United States, about 1.34%.”
• Tim: "This is KKK talking points... This is why we call it white Christian nationalism."

9. Wilson’s Whitewashed Defense of Slavery

[37:38 – 41:50]

• Tim reads directly from Wilson’s book Southern Slavery as it Was, in which Wilson claims the slave system fostered “mutual affection and confidence.”
• April: “That full thing is so damning. What on earth are you talking about?... He is the one whitewashing this history.”
• Connections made between Wilson’s revisionism and Pete Hegseth’s push to restore Confederate monuments.

10. The Endgame: Legislating Christian Nationalism

[44:27 – 46:27]

• Wilson openly yearns to see Obergefell (marriage equality) overturned after celebrating Roe’s reversal.
• Tim: “They want a country where women have no bodily autonomy... where queer people are forced back into the closet... This is what they want.”
• April reminds listeners that legal oppression is a form of violence, even if not physically enacted.

11. Sexism and Militarism

[48:12 – 51:15]

• Wilson argues against women in the military, blaming the presence of women for potential misconduct by men, disregarding agency and accountability.
• April: “Control your own dick, Doug... That is a problem with the men, not the women.”
• Tim: “Women are to be at home, [to] make sandwiches and have babies. He says that on his own blogs.”

12. Hypocrisy and Sexualization

[52:27 – 55:23]

• April cites hypocrisy in Wilson's attacks on drag queens and trans people as “sexualizing children,” while Wilson’s own record includes publishing an erotic novel (Ride Sally Ride) and involvement in covering up abuse in his church.
• Tim: “This is the people who are, 'Oh, society's gone too far to the left...' Meanwhile, this guy is marrying off actual pedophiles to women in his church.”

13. Gender Roles and Misogyny

[55:45 – 58:22]

• Wilson admits his vision is patriarchal and frames egalitarianism as a “slippery slope” to chaos.
• Tim: “This has been debunked... Doug wants a society [where] women are good for two things: serving men and making babies for men.”
• Practical examples (military standards, fire departments) undermined by reality.

14. Slippery Slope Fallacies

[66:09 – 68:13]

• Wilson deploys classic slippery slope logic, warning that “daughters are going to be drafted.”
• April: “Phyllis Schlafly in the '70s used this exact same fear mongering... and it never happened.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Doug Wilson (on his ideal Christian America):
"We wouldn't have clown world. We wouldn't have drag queen story hours. We wouldn't have pride parades. We wouldn't have abortion on demand... Those things would be gone."
— [07:00]

Tim Whitaker:
"Christian nationalists... are antichrist in what they advocate for. Because you see Doug's sleight of hand here, where he says, 'in a world ruled by Christ,' and then lists out things that Christ never talks about."
— [08:13]

April Ajoy:
"Be trans, be who you're meant to be. There's absolutely... trans rights are human rights."
— [14:27]

Doug Wilson (on other religions):
"There are so many of them, right? So if we had a Christian republic and a Muslim came to Disneyland with his family, we have no problem. But when they fill up Dearborn, Michigan... you cannot put alien worldviews together cheek by jowl and have peace."
— [28:54]

Tim Whitaker (after reading from Wilson's slavery text):
"This is literal lost-cause mythology... This is the man who is saying how he was fringe but now he's not anymore, and who... is happy that Pete Hegseth reads his writings."
— [39:35]

April Ajoy:
"If you really want to prey on women, go be a pastor. [You have] 100% free reign to prey on women, no accountability."
— [61:34]

Doug Wilson (defending men-only spaces):
"There are certain places that ought to be male-only spaces and combat is one of them. Being closed up in a submarine is another one."
— [50:00]

April Ajoy (on Wilson's vision):
"I have zero doubts that if Doug Wilson lived during the time leading up... to the Civil War, he would have owned slaves for sure."
— [39:46]

Key Timestamps

• [06:30] — Wilson lays out his "Christ-ruled" America—no drag queens, no pride, no abortion.
• [08:13] — Tim and April critique Wilson’s blatant rewrite of Jesus’ message.
• [11:03] — Wilson: COVID restrictions and blue states triggered mass migration to his church.
• [17:08] — Wilson confirms he's a Christian nationalist; April and Tim expose the term's deeper implications.
• [28:54] — Wilson’s “assimilation” argument for fewer Muslims/Hindus in the U.S.
• [37:38] — Tim reads from Wilson’s book defending slavery; April reacts with visible horror.
• [44:27] — Wilson wants Obergefell (marriage equality) reversed, as was Roe v. Wade.
• [49:17] — Wilson argues against women and trans people in the military.
• [53:07] — Discussion of Wilson’s past abuses and his erotic fiction.
• [58:59] — Debunking Wilson’s binary thinking about gender roles and ability.
• [66:09] — Wilson’s “slippery slope” argument: feminism allegedly leads to drafting daughters for war.

Tone & Style

The episode is emotionally charged, incisive, and unwavering in its critique. Tim and April alternate between biting sarcasm (“Control your own dick, Doug” - April, [49:17]), sober historical analysis, and moments of dismay and incredulity. Their tone remains accessible but urgent, making it clear that the issues discussed threaten democracy, theological integrity, and basic human rights.

Conclusion & Next Episode Tease

The episode ends at roughly the 1:19:50 mark of the CNN interview, with Tim and April noting there’s still more dangerous content left to dissect—specifically Wilson’s views on repealing the 19th amendment and deepening patriarchy in American law. The hosts encourage listeners seeking a better, justice-centered faith to check out TNE Connect and tease a part-two continuation for the following week.

Summary Takeaway

• Doug Wilson’s Christian nationalism is nakedly exclusionary, patriarchal, and white supremacist—despite a veneer of "politeness" and piety.
• The beliefs Wilson espouses are no longer fringe but are increasingly entering mainstream conservative and evangelical movements, with growing political influence.
• Tim and April take every opportunity to debunk, contextualize, and confront these ideas, encouraging listeners to wake up to the clear and present danger of Christian nationalist ideology.
• The conversation is deeply rooted in advocacy for dignity, inclusion, and the liberative spirit of Jesus.

For more on this topic, Part Two will continue the critical response to Doug Wilson’s CNN interview in Episode 45.