52. Why Christian Nationalists are Hellbent on Hell

Summary

---

The Tim & April Show – Episode 52

Why Christian Nationalists Are Hellbent on Hell
Aired: October 7, 2025
Host: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy (The New Evangelicals)
Guest: Brian Wrecker, public theologian & author of "Hellbent: How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love"

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the persistent power of hell in American Christian consciousness, focusing on how Christian Nationalists use the concept to control behavior, maintain in-group boundaries, and justify harmful policies toward outsiders. The hosts are joined by theologian and author Brian Wrecker, who dissects the theological, psychological, and political implications of "hell" as both doctrine and tool of fear. Through clips and commentary, the conversation exposes the deep links between hell, Christian Nationalism, and exclusivity—contrasted with a call for a faith rooted in love, empathy, and justice.

---

Main Themes & Purpose

• Unpacking Hell: Why, even though public figures rarely invoke hell explicitly, it remains a hidden mechanism of control within Christian Nationalism.
• Hell as Fear Tactic: How belief in hell is weaponized to discourage doubt, deconstruction, and dissent among Christians.
• Boundaries & Exclusion: The "us vs. them" mentality supported and justified by hell, especially toward marginalized groups.
• Theological Deconstruction: Challenging the traditional doctrines of hell and framing alternative Christian spiritualities centered on love rather than fear.
• Christian Nationalism's Endgame: Exposing how hell-talk enables power, hierarchy, and ongoing injustices dressed up as Christian virtue.

---

Episode Structure & Key Segments

1. Introduction: Setting the Tone (00:00–02:54)

• Hosts Tim and April joke about their evangelical upbringings—how talking about hell could be “fun.”
• Guest Brian Wrecker is introduced and celebrated for his recent book and viral writing on Christian Nationalism and hell.

"Only like a progressive, deconstructed hell-Christian could say, 'We're going to talk about hell and it's going to be fun.'" — April [01:09]

---

2. Brian Wrecker on Why “Hell” Won’t Let Go (04:34–08:25)

• Brian unpacks how hell operated as the primary control mechanism in his own faith background and deconstruction process.
• The threat of hell “keeps questioning unsafe,” forcing conformity and suppressing honest exploration.
• Once you challenge hell, the whole theological "sweater" starts to unravel: the meaning of salvation, Jesus' purpose, and Christian identity.

“Hell makes questioning unsafe. It makes exploring outside of the lines unsafe. ... You thought you were just pulling that one thread out of the sweater, but it ends up unraveling the entire sweater, the sweater being Christianity.” — Brian [05:52]

---

3. Hell Belief as Core of Christian Nationalism (08:25–12:41)

• Tim and April discuss the way in which evangelical systems hinge almost entirely on afterlife anxiety.
• The panel notes how Christian nationalists, though rarely explicit about hell in policy or public rhetoric, rely on it “underneath everything” to justify exclusion and “righteous” persecution.
• Notable discussion of Rob Bell’s question: “If there was no hell, would you still follow Jesus?”

“If there’s no hell, what did you save me from? ... The whole point for me of entering into a relationship with God as a little kid was because I was told the consequences for not.” — Brian [07:02]

---

4. Clip Commentary: Wesley Huff and the Bumper Sticker Gospel (15:48–25:34)

Clip Breakdown: Christian apologist Wesley Huff appears on a secular podcast defending hell as “locked on the inside” and “God giving you what you want.” [16:35–19:21]

Key Discussion Points

• Wes strings together classic evangelical soundbites, but critics highlight the lack of internal logical consistency.
• Contrast between Calvinist predestination ("God chooses") and popular apologetic “choice”-based hell, showing internal theological contradiction.
• The dangerous arrogance in assuming only “our group” really wants God.
• Notably, the “mental gymnastics” performed to shift responsibility for hell off God and onto “those who choose wrong.”

“Like, I just feel like every phrase out of his mouth is a soundbite...they’re all bumper stickers.” — Brian [17:37]

“The only people that really want God are their people that really agree with them...” — Brian [20:32]

• Emphasis on the problematic binary: “heaven for us, hell for everyone else” — even within Christian subgroups.

“It’s the death of a thousand qualifications. Once you get outside the bubble...eternal conscious torment isn’t even the oldest, most orthodox view.” — Tim [25:54]

---

5. What the Bible Actually Says About Afterlife (26:48–28:22)

• Challenging the entire heaven/hell framework for being unbiblical—highlighting that the biblical vision is of a remade world, not disembodied reward/punishment.
• Even leading conservative scholars (NT Wright cited) support a this-world focus for the “Kingdom of God.”

“The whole idea [in scripture] is about a new earth...not about going somewhere else when you die.” — Tim [26:48]

---

6. Christian Nationalists, Hell, and Power (36:41–42:40)

Clip: Tony Suarez Preaches "Snatching America From the Fire" [36:41–42:40]

• Suarez uses explicit hell imagery to frame political battle for America: “snatching every judicial appointment...from the fire.”
• Hosts highlight the literalism here—not just metaphor. Hell is real; their political opposites are demonically controlled, and their victories are spiritual warfare.
• Ties to New Apostolic Reformation theology—prayer and declarations believed to change spiritual geography.

“If you don’t grow up in this world, you might think that’s tongue in cheek...Christian nationalists do mean a literal hell.” — April [39:16]

---

7. Dichotomy of Forgiveness vs. Vengeance in Christian Nationalism (43:40–51:27)

Clip: Joe Rigney on the Death Penalty and "Christian Social Ethics" [43:40–51:59]

• The panel discusses a clip in which Christian Nationalists approve both vengeance (“we’re coming for you” – Stephen Miller) and selective forgiveness (“I forgive him” – Erica Kirk).
• Rigney argues that Jesus’ teachings on loving enemies apply only to individuals, not society; the state’s job is vengeance and executions (Romans 13).

“So, love your neighbor by executing him for the great evil that he did ... That’s Christianity, that’s Christian social ethics played out, like, in one moment.” — Joe Rigney [46:01]

• Brian and Tim dissect the abuse of Romans 13, and point out the historical context: Paul was writing to persecuted Christians, not the powers-that-be.

“The Bible is never teaching the government to be as vengeful as possible...He’s saying to the church, be aware this is how the government works.” — Brian [48:48]

---

8. Hell as Rhetorical Weapon Against Political Enemies (54:17–62:11)

Clip: Christian Nationalist Rhetoric under Biden Administration (Tony Perkins) [56:04–60:39]

• Perkins and others call Democratic policies “literally from the pit of hell,” especially those supporting LGBTQ+ rights and inclusion of indigenous or non-Christian curriculum.
• The panel exposes the hypocrisy: Romans 13 (submit to government) is invoked only when Republicans are in power.
• Brian unpacks the function of the “hell” framework in justifying Christian supremacy and colonial violence:

“Part of what made a group of people white was that they were the ones who had the keys to heaven and hell… You can justify just about anything when it’s ‘our way goes to heaven, your way goes to hell.’” — Brian [59:24]

---

9. The Real-World Harm: Demonizing Empathy & Excluding Minorities (68:09–78:36)

• The discussion turns toward how “hell” justifies demonizing empathy, particularly toward LGBTQ+ people or “liberal Christians.”
• Various Christian influencers (Megan Basham, Allie Beth Stuckey) are cited as using hell to defend mockery and exclusion of those who use pronouns or show inclusion.
• Brian details how this exclusion is less about changing “outsider” behavior, and more about policing the boundaries of the in-group, weaponizing hell to maintain conformity and ostracize dissent.

“This is to reinforce boundaries...Don’t you fucking put pronouns in your bio. Or you’re out.” — Brian [73:41]

---

10. Why the Obsession: Psychological & Social Roots (78:38–82:31)

• April posits that those most obsessed with hell are often living in an internal “hell on earth,” envious of those with the freedom to live authentically.
• Hell becomes a means of deferred justice: “They’ll get theirs because hell’s coming for them, even though my life is miserable right now.”

---

11. Conclusion: Escaping the Spirituality of Escape (82:09–end)

• The episode ends on a call to move away from a spirituality of fear and escapism (hell, the rapture) and into a practical faith centered on love, justice, and neighborliness on earth.
• Tim jokes: “If the rapture is real, I don’t mind being left behind at this point—we can get a lot of shit done!”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You thought you were just pulling that one thread out of the sweater, but it ends up unraveling the entire sweater, the sweater being Christianity.” — Brian [05:52]
• “If there was no hell, would you still follow Jesus?” — (Citing Rob Bell) [08:37]
• “Like, I just feel like every phrase out of his [apologist’s] mouth is a soundbite...it doesn’t add up.” — Brian [17:37]
• “It’s the death of a thousand qualifications...eternal conscious torment isn’t even the oldest, most orthodox view.” — Tim [25:54]
• “You’re really lucky if you’re one of those Christians, because you’re winning the lottery.” — Tim [24:24]
• “This is to reinforce those boundaries...it’s a shot across the bow.” — Brian [73:41]
• “True spirituality is pushing against those forces that cause us to demonize our neighborhood.” — Brian [77:36]
• “Their spirituality is so empty of Christ, so empty of the Holy Spirit, that the very things they call spiritual standing up for truth is literally just our worst impulses put on display.” — Brian [77:37]
• “I think most of these people are living hell on earth ... there was this level of envy that you have when you see people able to just live their life...” — April [78:38]
• “If the rapture is real, I don’t mind being left behind at this point—we can get a lot of shit done.” — Tim [82:31]

---

Episode Takeaways

• Far from being a “secondary issue,” hell sustains the logic and emotional climate of Christian Nationalism, empowering cruelty, exclusion, and hierarchy.
• The “certainty” around hell is psychologically manufactured—rooted in fear, not divine revelation.
• The historic Christian tradition is richer and more varied than what hell-focused gatekeepers claim; this opens the door for a spirituality of love, justice, and practical compassion.
• Ultimately, to move forward, individuals and communities must dismantle the control mechanisms of hell and redirect energy toward building the "Kingdom" Jesus actually talked about—on earth, for all neighbors.

---

Further Resources

• Book Recommendation: “Hellbent: How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love” by Brian Wrecker (Audio book available)
• Connect with The New Evangelicals: Community, resources, and further discussion at thenewenvangelicals.com

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody.

[B]

I wasn't sure you and me this time.

[A]

Yeah, we, we, we've had a really long streak of getting that intro right and lost plot.

[B]

We're back to zero days. Zero days without incident. So. Hi everyone. Welcome into the show. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April Ajoy.

[B]

And we got it. We got a fun one for you. I think today this would be a good one. If you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to subscribe to the channel like this video. If you're listening on podcast. Thank you so much for doing that. If you could do us a favor and give this show a rating and a review, it really helps us out. This will be a fun one. This is a, I think, kind of unique format because we don't, we don't do this every single day, April. It's not every day we bring on a guest who we are also friends with and, you know, talk about things like hell and Christian nationalism. So I'm excited.

[A]

I think it's, I think only like a progressive, deconstructed hell. Christian could say we're going to talk about hell and it's going to be fun.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to poke fun at hell. Cue the Newsboys song Breakfast. Did you ever listen to that song?

[A]

Did I ever.

[B]

Yeah, same, same.

[A]

That was like one of my faves.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I was one of the people who brought Captain Crunch boxes to the Newsboys show so I can wave it during the song Breakfast. And Friends, if you don't know that song, when you're done listening to this episode, just ask your Alexa or Siri to play Breakfast by Newsboys and just sit and bask in what arguably was the anthem of our generation.

[A]

Yeah. And just. And think of 8 year olds just screaming the lyrics at the top of their lungs.

[B]

Yes. Maybe 10 years old, you know. So anyway, you want to introduce our guest?

[A]

Yes. So we have Brian Wrecker. He's a public theologian, he has his m. Div and he is the author of a brand new book called Hell Bents, which is why. Oh, let me read the whole thing. Hellbent. How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back From a Spirituality of Love. And so we thought he'd be a great guest to come on here and talk about how Christian nationalism uses hell and the fear of hell to basically kind of stay in power and to keep people inside the movement. It's a lot of fear Manipulation. And they. I mean, and. And here's the thing. Publicly speaking and, like, politicians don't use hell like, at the forefront. It's not something that's a major talking point, but it's used a lot in their churches. And it. It's subtly underneath pretty much everything.

[B]

I mean, the language of hell, the language of. Of the demonic, the pit of hell, all these phrases for Christian nationalists have a real reality to them. So let's bring on Brian. We'll get into it a little bit. All right, Brian. Boom. Button hit. Hi, Brian.

[A]

His name tag.

[C]

Oh, no.

[B]

Okay, guys, I. Listen, I prep everything around here. I forgot it. All right. It's my bad, my bad.

[C]

I was well introduced, so, you know, they know who I am. It's just keep saying my name over and over again. We'll, you know, we'll get there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Brian Wrecker. I mean, you have a lot of followers on Instagram. You have a book out. You know, just type Brian in Hell in Google. It will do the rest for you.

[C]

Is Brian going to hell?

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

Actually, Brian, you'd be excited to learn this. When I was looking for clips for this episode, I just searched Christian nationalism Hell. And you wrote an opinion piece or, like a guest article for Newsweek, I think.

[B]

Dang.

[A]

And that showed up on the first page. So good. SEO.

[C]

Yeah, I love that.

[B]

Look at that. Cool.

[C]

We're going places.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. We're doing the thing. Sometimes I wish that. Well, not sometimes, all the time. I wish that things like that translated to real money so people would realize that, you know, that we don't get paid for things like that usually. Or if we do, it's very little.

[C]

No, I did not. No. I think Newsweek was just like, oh, free content. Yeah, right, right.

[B]

You get free exposure. Right? That's the handshake. So I wish followers and likes and views translated to dollars.

[C]

It does not.

[B]

In case you're wondering.

[C]

Can't eat followers for breakfast, am I right?

[B]

Exactly. Exactly, my friend. So we're gonna talk about hell today, but really quick, why don't you kind of give us the reason you wrote a book on hell? It's not really a fun topic, especially growing up evangelical. What was the motive behind that?

[C]

It was such a huge part of my deconstruction. Like April said, the same way that Christian nationalism uses it kind of under the surface to uphold their whole thing. You can't question something when. When you have hell kind of as a foundation. And in many ways, it is the control mechanism that keeps you from upending A lot of other things and questioning other systems because the stakes are just too high to question it. I mean, the stakes literally couldn't be higher. And it, again, for those of us who are outside of it, it gets a little silly thinking about, like, oh yeah, people are going to be tortured for eternity. Like, never ending torture. Like, I, I'm sure that that's real and not just like a fear tactic to control people. Right. Like, it seems very obvious on the outside of it. Like, oh yeah, you made up the worst imaginable possible fate in order to control people. But when you're in it and when you're told from, I don't know, five years old or before your memories even begin that this is not just what happens to you when you die, but this is really at the heart of what it even means to be in a relationship with God.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

The whole point for me of entering into a relationship God with a. With God as a little kid was because I was told the consequences for not being in that relationship with God. So that a lot of us entered in, we made a choice that in retrospect, if we're honest, it wasn't much of a choice, but we kind of had to gaslight ourselves into believing that this was a freely chosen thing because we didn't want to just be worshiping God or following God out of fear. And yet, if we're honest, that that decision was in the very foundation of what it meant to be Christian. And so what I've realized as I speak to people who are deconstructing, a lot of times it is hell that keeps them from being feeling safe to ask questions. Hell makes questioning unsafe. It makes exploring outside of the lines unsafe. And so you do have to at some point take that apart. But beyond that, what I also realized was that once people would start to take apart hell, it was almost like you were pulling a thread and you thought you were just pulling that one thread out of the sweater, but it ends up unraveling the entire sweater, the sweater being Christianity. Because if you take apart hell and say, okay, there's no hell, I'm going to still be a Christian, just the kind that doesn't believe in hell. And then all of a sudden it's like, wait a second, if there's no hell, why? Why did Jesus die?

[B]

What?

[C]

What did you save me from? What? What does it mean that Jesus is a savior? What does it even mean to be saved? If I'm not saved from hell, what am I saved from? What am I saved for? What if I'm. If I'm not going to go to hell when I die, then what's even the point of being a Christian? Why not be something else entirely? So the whole system was actually built on hell. And so that's really what my book is about. Not just, hey, what does the Bible say about hell? And how can we reframe that, but really how we received a spirituality that shaped our understanding of God, ourselves, other people, all based in punishment. And how when we take that out, we have to really have a new understanding of what spirituality is. That's not about where we go in the afterlife, but about growing in love in, in this life.

[A]

So, and so would you argue that you can be a Christian and not believe in hell?

[C]

I mean, I am that. So, yes.

[A]

I just want to clarify for the people that were like, look at this, they're saying you can't.

[C]

Yeah, right, right, right, right. No. So I think we received a Christianity that was, was rooted in hell. I think that if you are going to be a Christian who doesn't believe in hell, it will require some work and maybe even deconstructing. What does it mean for you to follow Jesus becomes more of a way of following Jesus in this life, in modeling your life and your spiritual spirituality after Jesus, as opposed to just putting your faith in where you go in the next life. So for a lot of people it's a replay.

[A]

I mean, I would say Tim and I are also in that camp too, and I was like pretty old when I realized that there are other beliefs about hell that are not eternal conscious torment also.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I remember when I discovered Rob Bell for the first time when he was really blowing up an evangelicalism. Oh, totally, totally, totally. Yeah. My boy Rob. How would do it if you didn't grow up evangelical? You have no clue who I'm talking about, but it's a long story. But I remember though, listening to one of his sermons and him asking the question, if there was no hell, would you still follow Jesus? I was like, whoa, controversial, Rob. Like, wow, what a thought provoking question. Because you're right, the evangelical system is set up around this idea of do you want to know where you're going to go when you die? And here's how you can know it, because you can go to the really bad place where you're essentially tortured forever, or you can live in like a dreamlike state where there are streets literally made of gold. And which one do you want? Also, I will say, and by the.

[C]

Way, when you're hearing about that you're five years old and it's like, now which one. Which one?

[B]

Do you want to be eaten by.

[C]

Worms or do you want to dance on the gold? Which one?

[B]

Someone was sat down in front of a fireplace and there were four and was told that's what hell is like. Do you want to go there? No. Great. Pray this prayer. And you know, know you're right, Brian, like when you. It's easy now that I've kind of like retrained my mind and have created some new neural pathways to realize how absurd it sounds. But when you're steeped in that world your whole life and everything you're taught about God and truth and reality is centered around this idea of eternal conscious torment in particular, and you're told there's no other true Christian path to understand these ideas other than what they're giving you, it's a very hard thing to shake because those take deep root in your mind, I think. You know, just to answer your question, April, about heaven and hell, I still believe that, you know, in some form of hell, I think, but just not internal conscious torment. You know, the idea of the fires of hell being a refining fire, maybe in the sense of like a universal reconciliation or even an annihilationist view. Right. But that's a complicated. What if it's not an objective truth that I hold to that I believe is going to happen? So these topics are really complicated. I do think, though, it's worth pointing out. And I think this is why we brought Brian on, because on this show we like to look at clips and see how different people, especially in Christian nationalist spaces, use this kind of idea of punishment and fear and this layman's broad understanding of hell being a place that's essentially like a hot oven where you're just gonna roast forever. Cause God is good and God is just. And somehow that's supposed to work. I think it's worth us going through a few of these clips that you guys pulled and kind of getting Brian's thoughts on them from his perspective. Now, as someone who used to teach that as a pastor and now is writing a book, that's kind of like, well, I think actually I had it wrong, and maybe here's a better way of thinking about heaven and hell in the afterlife.

[A]

And I think it's also good to point out, too, that even the people who say they know that they know that they know that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that hell is right, they don't know it's. It is impossible for any of us who are alive to know the kind.

[C]

Of thing you can know for sure.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

You can't know people who say that they're certain. It's very clear to me that if anyone who acts like they're certain about what happens after you die, you're either selling something or what. I. What I think is actually very common is you're manufacturing a false certainty. Because the stakes are so high. Not knowing is not an option. You have to know if something like hell is on the table. So then certainty is very important. You can't really be an agnostic if, like torture, eternal torture is. Is like a potential option, you kind of have to know that that's not going to happen to you.

[A]

No, I know. I remember, like, being a kid and being told like, oh, yeah, once you say the prayer like, you can't lose your salvation. I'm like, great. They're like, so don't stress about hell. Like, but on the off chance you could lose your salvation, you know, maybe just don't ever do anything.

[C]

It doesn't matter. Because they'll say, oh, you can't lose your salvation. But then if you backslide, if you do what we all did and recons, they'll just say, well, you were never a Christian to begin with, and now you're definitely going to hell. Okay, you didn't lose it because you were never even.

[B]

You were never a Christian. Right. Everything you did, the missions trips, the serving at church, the Bible studies, the. The thousand times you walked down the aisle to receive Christ, it never counted because now you're. No. Exactly. So I'll tell you what, why don't we go right into how apologists respond to this question. I think this is maybe a good dip into the world here. So this is a clip that Brian picked up. Oh, that's the wrong shot. Boop. There you go, Brian. Now you're back. Yeah, sorry I trimmed you out there for a second.

[A]

Oh, by the way, this is.

[C]

If we suddenly disappear during this broadcast.

[A]

It's the rapture. Okay. I'm not joking. I wish I was joking. We had talked about how there was a prophet who said Jesus appeared to him and said that the rapture was the 23rd, 24th on September. Obviously, that did not happen.

[B]

Soccer. I can't believe it. No way.

[A]

So he. He has come out 100%, I'm not joking. And said. They're like, well, what do you have to say to. For, you know, you got it wrong. He's like, well, actually, you know, I went and Prayed about it. And when Jesus was alive, he went by the Julian calendar, which is 13 days later than the Gregorian calendar, which is what we go by. So because of that, it's still September 23rd, 24th, but according to the calendar we use, that actually translate to October 7th and 8th. So this will drop on October 7th, I believe, is the day. So we are on a new rapture day, guys.

[C]

We should punk them. And, like, literally, we should do that pause function that Tim has and then just all get off of the mic and the screen and, like, disappear. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just leave our. Just leave our clothes there. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't want to traumatize. Like, look, we're already talking about hell. People are probably already triggered. I don't want to. I don't want to push them over the edge. But kind of one thing I do want to add to that, or just an observation, you all notice how, like, these people can never just admit that they were wrong. There's always a justification for why they're actually still right. Even the fact that this dude's going to be wrong today, that there's no rapture that's going to happen, and he will reinvent some new narrative that it's farther out. That's indicative, I think, of the event evangelical, like, modern Protestant evangelical complex that we deal with, where people cannot just admit that they're wrong. Like, hey, guys, you voted for a president who is literally beating or who is literally employing ICE agents who are beating women and children as they rip their fathers out of their arms. Well, they should have came here illegally. Well, they actually were here legally. They're actually at an immigration hearing to extend their stay. Well, they're probably a criminal. There's no way to acknowledge. You know what? Maybe I was just wrong. It's always a pivot to something else, and it just drives me crazy. As we're going to see with this clip. Oh, wait, this side with Wes Huff. Okay. Do you want to tee this one up for us, Brian? I.

[C]

No, just play it, because I don't actually remember what happens in this clip.

[B]

Well, can you explain who Wes Huss. Just explain who Wesley.

[C]

So Wes Huss is a Christian apologist. He's kind of a Josh McDowell for a new generation. And he's been getting a lot of airtime, so he's been on Joe Rogan. This is a clip from the Flagrant podcast. So this is a bunch of comedians that kind of do that classic thing that comedians seem to be doing lately, which is make right wing, like, Leaning podcasts totally understand that overlap, but most of these guys are secular ish, but kind of interested in conservatism in general. And so they're platforming Christians more, which is kind of an interesting phenomenon. Joe Rogan's doing it. Yeah, guys did it. And so they. They have been hearing him out, and he really rolled out all of his classic evangelical tropes, but kind of has updated them a little bit for a new generation.

[B]

Here we go. If you're non Christian, can you get into heaven?

[C]

Oh, important question.

[B]

By non Christian, I mean if you just don't.

[C]

Yeah, him.

[B]

I'm agnostic, so I would say God.

[C]

Is not going to force anyone into heaven.

[B]

No one comes to the Father but through me. Jesus says, but C.S.

[C]

Lewis, once again, he says that hell.

[B]

Is locked from the inside.

[C]

I would say that if you have.

[B]

Spent your life not living out a life that is what Jesus has called.

[C]

You to do, to be, then Jesus is not going to force you into his presence.

[B]

Hell is God saying, thy will be done. So what you want in your life by rejecting Christ is what you're going to get in the afterlife.

[C]

Nobody wants hell. Well, Christianity is inclusivistic in that all.

[B]

Are called to come.

[C]

Yeah. But it is exclusivistic in that Jesus loves you and calls you to come as you are, but he loves you too much to leave you where you are.

[B]

Unconditional. But it's not unconditioned because all you.

[C]

Have to do is give up your.

[B]

Life and follow Jesus.

[C]

Like, I just feel like every phrase out of his mouth is a sound bite. And almost like. Like they're all bumper stickers. Like, he just strung bumper sticker after bumper sticker together, almost.

[B]

It's funny hearing this now, because 15 years ago I'd be like, yeah, absolutely. He's totally. Like, it makes sense. The math is mathing. And now I'm like, this makes no sense, honestly. Like, we can go through every sound bite and probably spend a half hour just going through every single one. It. It doesn't add up. Not to mention one thing I will say. Many Christians, especially Calvinist Christians, do not believe that, that, that, that. That everyone can come to the Father if they so choose. They believe that God has predetermined who will get saved and who will and who won't. So even this idea that Wes is preaching and isn't held by many people in his own Protestant tradition around soteriology and salvation.

[C]

Totally. But something that I found really interesting is the way that even people who have a More like reformed view of salvation. In other words, they believe in this very omnipotent God who, like, God, draws people to salvation, and salvation ultimately is in God's hands, not our hands. And yet when it comes to hell, because hell is such a horrific thing, they'll say, well, hell is locked from the inside. Or all of a sudden, now you have the power, whether you go to heaven or hell. And they like flip that because it is really obscene to think that God is literally sending people to hell. So their theology doesn't even necessarily add up why is hell is locked from the inside. And yet, if you asked him, okay, but like, can you choose at that point to come? No, he'll say that that decision is sealed at death. But it's like, why? There's really no reason for it. And he'll say, you get what you want. God is saying, thy will be done. And the guy, the flagrant guy, was like, nobody wants hell, dude.

[B]

If I was given the choice between roasting alive forever or being through the pearly gate, so to speak, I would choose the the latter. The problem is that what Wes is not acknowledging, and I'm sure he has answers for it, is that in the world, there are thousands of religions and billions of people who did not grow up in the white evangelical conservative world that west occupies. And so, like this idea of how he takes all these different bumper sticker slogans, right, well, heaven's locked from the inside. And, and, and you know, people, God will give you what you want. But many people worship God in a different religion and believe that they are, are being earnest and sincere and are committed to following God as they believe God to be. And so the way it works is that when they die, Jesus goes, hey, hey, Muslim person, you really lived a life embracing teachings that I even taught in the scriptures. Loving the poor and the foreigner and, you know, healing the sick. But you just, you just didn't say the prayer the right way. You just didn't trust me for the forgiveness of sins according to this evangelical doctrine. So I gotta pull the lever and send you to hell. Is that really how it works? Because that person's not thinking that they.

[C]

Want help, and then he makes this equation that they're getting what they want because they don't want God. In other words, the only people that really want God are their people that really agree with them, that believe in the exact same things that they do about Jesus. And everybody else is actually an enemy of God and hates God. And to me, their theology demands that they believe that but if you actually spend time with people outside of your tribe, you will find very quickly that that is not true. You do not actually have a monopoly on God, Wes. And it is inherently superior and arrogant to have that posture. But like you said, he has all these. The theologies that he strings together that creates what feels cohesive. And when you're in it, you're like, okay, he made a tight argument. But actually, as soon as you're exposed outside of it, you realize that is such an arrogant argument to make. It really assumes that only we want God. We're the only godly ones. Everybody else gets what they want, and what they want actually is hell.

[B]

That's to burn forever, is to burn forever. That's what they want.

[C]

Terrible perspective on other people. It's very alienating in how we view other people. It causes, I think, us to look down on other people 100%.

[B]

Can I add one more thing or. April, I know, Brian, I have been going, can I add just one more point and then I'll hand it over to you? Is that okay?

[A]

Yeah, I'll allow it.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for allowing it. I was going to say that one of the things that led to my early beginnings of what we can call deconstruction was being in proximity to my first ever gay coworker, right? It was like that was the beginning of me going, wait, this person is nothing like what I was taught at all. And in fact, this person's even more moral than many of my Christian friends. Like, they volunteer more. They. They are part of their community more. Like they're actually way more empathetic. And that was the beginning of me going, I don't know if this person is choosing to hate God and choosing hell just because of who they were, you know, so that I agree with you, Brian. Like, once you get outside of the bubble of evangelical fundamentalism, or I call it the basement, once you get out of there, you're like, wait, it might make sense when you're in that basement. Once you're outside of it, that logic does not work, because the experience of what I'm seeing and feeling in proximity with is completely counter to what you guys taught me. It would be like you taught me that people reject God and want to go to hell. That's what they're choosing. But my friends who are human, who are not Christian, especially your flavor of it, don't want that at all. It doesn't make any sense.

[A]

I just wanted to point out the very clear mental gymnastics that he's doing there because he can't just answer the question.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

It's like, so if you're not a Christian, you go to hell. He's like, well no, God wouldn't send anybody to hell. He just gives you what you want deep down, you know, like he's not going to force anyone because he's a loving God. Because they believe that God is all loving and loves us unconditionally. And that cannot reconcile with a God that would send people to hell to be tormented forever. Because that is clearly a condition. So they have to put it on the person because it couldn't be God.

[C]

Like it's just, ugh, it's really dishonest actually. Because they say they believe in this all powerful God. They also believe, like I say, sometimes people like, do you believe God gets what God wants?

[B]

Right.

[C]

And because they say they're so biblical, right. They're so like they're just believing the Bible. This is just literal. What he's saying, he would say is like just a literal reading of the Bible. But the Bible also says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. The Bible says that God will be all in all, that God will reconcile all things in heaven, on end on earth to God's self. And how can any of those verses be true if actually not just some people, but according to an evangelical perspective, the majority of people who ever lived are going to go on suffering. And that's not all things being reconciled to God. That's not even some things. That's like a few things being reconciled to God.

[B]

Play the lottery if you're one of those Christians because you're really lucky.

[C]

It's a bad ending. It's a bad story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think they also show they almost tell on themselves without realizing it because they are self aware enough to know that it's not good if God actually sends people to hell for just believing the wrong things. So that's why they have to do all these, the mental gymnastics. Because he knows if he just answers that question straight up. Yes, everyone who's not a Christian goes to hell. That that's like, well, what kind of God is that?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Especially we're talking about belief and not action.

[C]

Because even John fundamentalists would take a harder line. Like that's like the more moderate evangelical Jonathan Edwards. Yeah, I mean Jonathan Edwards and then like his acolytes in the reformed world, like a Paul Washer OR A John MacArthur would have absolutely said God sends you to hell. God rejoices over the suffering of the dam. It's God's justice being magnified. So that would be an equally valid orthodox position. But Wes is like, okay, that's not going to work on flagrant. So what we're going to do is like, God gives you what you want, but don't you know, what you actually want is hell. And he's like, I don't want to go to hell.

[B]

Right? No, no, no.

[C]

Don't you understand everything except for what I believe is actually choosing hell. That's, that's the sort of arrogant place that it leaves you.

[A]

And there are so many Christian denominations that, that believe other Christian denominations are also going to hell that are not them. Like, it's so exclusive, but it dies.

[B]

The death of a thousand qualifications. Like there is once again, once you get outside the bubble and you realize that even inside the Christian tradition, eternal conscious torment isn't even the oldest, most orthodox view of heaven and hell. In fact, can we just be really clear that it's not even about heaven and hell if you're going to get biblical. It's about a new earth. Like the whole idea of, of God reconciling the cosmos is that a new earth is created where there is no more pain and suffering. It's not about going somewhere else when you die. It's about this earth being remade as it was designed to be made originally. That's the whole point. So even the, even this narrative of you want to go to heaven or hell when you die, I would argue if we're going to play the evangelical game, is an unbiblical view of what the afterlife is, period. It's not. It's foreign to the text. The kingdom of God that Jesus talks about is not heaven. This is.

[C]

And by the way, for this world.

[B]

Yeah. And just so the audience knows, this is not liberal progressive Christianity. This is like nt, right? This is very, like, conservative. I would just argue, like, deep scholarship by people who like, know what they're talking about. And so this narrative of heaven and hell, we should just start, we should start with that point of like, it's not even about that to begin with. Already off on the wrong foot.

[C]

Because actually Wes would be familiar with that scholarship. And I would say at this point it's relatively mainstream even in evangelicalism, to say that, okay, the main message of Jesus was that Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of God. That is pretty much irrefutably accepted even amongst evangelical scholars. And that the kingdom of God was not a message about the afterlife. It was a message for this world and new creation within this life. Most Evangelicals would have to admit that. The problem is they have a whole theology that's not about that at all. They have a theology that's primarily about where you go when you die. So they, they kind of see that, but then they're like, yeah, but then what they actually primarily use Jesus for is you believe in Jesus so that you can become a Christian where you go when you die. It's not really about his message of the kingdom of God. So in my book, I do try to reframe. It's like, if you want to actually follow Jesus, you're actually going to miss it the more you focus on these afterlife things, because that's not what Jesus talked about at all. There's not a single moment where salvation is. Is used in the same category as hell. Like, that's not what salvation is about in the Bible. Is. Is missing hell. Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals.

[B]

Listen. Every day we hear from people who.

[C]

Feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked.

[B]

By politics and nationalism.

[C]

And yet they still long for a.

[B]

Faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist.

[C]

Because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus.

[B]

But building a movement like this takes time.

[C]

It takes energy, and it takes financial support.

[B]

So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or any, anything that we've created has impacted.

[C]

You, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this.

[B]

Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action.

[C]

By rejecting Christian nationalism and to live.

[B]

In a way that shows people how.

[C]

To truly love our neighbors together.

[B]

I know that we could build something beautiful.

[C]

So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today.

[A]

You.

[C]

You can find the link right in our show notes.

[A]

Thank you for standing with us.

[C]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites, and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] it's okay not to be perfect with finances.

[B]

Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores experience.

[C]

Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms.

[A]

It can be hard when you're still dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there, and negative.

[C]

Symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment.

[A]

Discover your [e-mail].

[B]

I want to play this one segment that Wes says here I think is really important to pick up on and then we can move on to other, other things. I know we're kind of parking here for a minute, but this is really important. So this is I'm pulling from, from Wes's clip. Again, listen to this part here. From the inside, I would say that.

[C]

If you have spent your life not living out a life that is what.

[B]

Jesus has called you to do, to.

[C]

Be, then Jesus is not going to force you into his presence.

[B]

Okay, just stop right there. So the the philosopher Soren Kierkegaard asked a great question about this. Actually. He says, who is the real Christian? The person who professes that he's a follower of Christ but does none of the things that Christ taught? Or the person who maybe doesn't confess the right way, but lives a life of what Christ taught us to do. I think that and Wes kind of hints at this, right? If you're living a life that you're called to live. Well, there are many people who would not claim conservative theology, biblically speaking, but they live their life feeding the hungry, taking care of the sick, clothing the naked, right, welcoming the foreigner. And Jesus says, I think it's Matthew 7, that those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom, not those who will say the right words at the altar call will enter the kingdom. So this whole foundation and this, I think, Brian, this is probably for you too, a realization. But as I got deeper into just even taking the Bible more seriously and reading the words of Jesus more seriously, I thought, wait, what I've been taught about what Salvation is compared to what Jesus says it is, is actually quite different. And it's at odds with each other. And I think there's way more action than, than, than we give credit for in the scriptures when it comes to that allegiance to the way of Jesus.

[C]

Yeah, it is interesting hearing him say that, because it's just an inconsistency. I kind of, I, I don't mind as much what he said there. The problem is that he, in his mind, I know his evangelical theology. So him saying not living the life that you're called to live, that really is only being an evangelical, being born again according to the way that he would view. And so he would have to discount someone who lived their life for the sake of the poor. You know, my book, I use the example of when I talk about, like, do you have to be a Christian to be saved? Or, you know, do you have to be a Christian? Thomas Merton famously had a really close relationship with the Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh. Thomas Merton was a Catholic monk. And so you have a Christian and a Buddhist having this interfaith friendship. And their friendship really was solidified over their, their protest against the war in Vietnam, that they were both opposed to that war and that they were both fighting for peace. In fact, Merton found more commonality with Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist, than with many of his Christian countrymen, because Christians in America, surprise, surprise, overwhelmingly supported the war in Vietnam. They were one of the largest voting blocs that was supportive of the war. And so he, he said in one quote that I use in the book is that Thich Nhat Hanh and I are exactly the same, and we believe exactly the same thing because we long for peace in this world. In other words, what was more important to him than, Than, like, your statement of faith was in fact your values and what you were aligned with and what you were longing for. And in that way, I believe that Thich Nhat Hanh was seeking the kingdom of God, that the world of peace that Jesus longed for, that's, that's the point. What kind of world are we building? And for Wes, he wouldn't be able to get there. He would ultimately have to find reasons why his Muslim brothers and sisters, his Buddhist brothers and sisters, that anybody who wasn't really an evangelical, even if they longed for peace, in fact, probably they long for peace more than many of his evangelical counterparts who are like, want more guns. Right, right. That he would have to ultimately say, well, yeah, you don't actually want what God wants. Or else you'd be saved in the way that you should be saved.

[B]

No, that's also why it's just very.

[A]

Narcissistic of evangelicals that they can read the Bible and they never, like. They put themselves in the shoes of, like, Jesus's disciples and, like, the people that were, like, rah, rah, Jesus. Right. But they never once think that maybe they could be the religious hypocrites that Jesus called out or that maybe the verse, like, these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me could ever, like, include them. Or when they read the story of Exodus, they relate to the Hebrew people that are the. The slaves of that time, and they never relate to themselves as Pharaoh and the Egyptians, even though their actions align much more with the Egyptians than they do the marginalized in that story. It's just like. And that's why they have this, like, persecution complex, too, that we're seeing, where they're literally inciting oppression and elevating politicians that are oppressing the marginalized that Jesus calls us to care for and to love, while also claiming that they're actually the victims and they're the ones whose rights are under attack.

[C]

And, like, if anybody is not living the life that God is calling us to live, like, you have Donald Trump at the top of their ticket, and they'll quickly accept him as long as he says, oh, yeah, I'm an evangelical now. You know, I've never.

[B]

Biblical values or religious freedom, whatever it is. Yeah.

[C]

Literally, I'm fighting for the Christians. I love the Christians as I grab women.

[B]

And I'm. I'm indicted and convicted on 34 felony counts. You know, like, yep, that's me.

[C]

And so there's a major inconsistency there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. Where do you want to go, April and Brian? Like, we have. We have some options here. We can. We. We can pull up some Christian nationalist talk about, you know, punishment and forgiveness. We could pull up some clips about just the fires of hell from. From the stage being preached. Where do you want to go?

[C]

What do you think, April?

[A]

Let's just. Just pull one. I don't even know which one it is. Let's just pull one and let's react.

[B]

Okay, here we go. This is random. I don't know what I pulled.

[C]

Oh, this is fun.

[B]

Here we go. I'm hitting play trigger warning. Potential talk of hell. Here we go. Just when they said we were too far gone, God raised up an army. And we look what the Lord has. The White House, Capitol Hill, in the name of Jesus. California. I picked a doozy.

[C]

What's he doing with his arm?

[B]

Jesus. I don't know. Someone gave God praise.

[C]

Bring that flag.

[A]

Bring me that flag. Bring me that flag.

[B]

Bring that flag. Bring that flag. There's more flags than crosses on that stage.

[C]

Someone bringing that flag.

[B]

Just when they said it was over, we.

[A]

Snatch it in from the fire.

[B]

And I say America will have revival again.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

But it's not just the White House. It's not just the Senate, it's not just the House of Representatives, but we're.

[C]

Snatching every judicial appointment, we're snatching every.

[B]

Court, we're snatching every state legislator, every governor of the land, every religious institution, every educational institution. We take it by force in the name of Jesus, and we eat it. The verdict tonight, the devil thought he had it, but we snatched it out of the fire.

[A]

That is Pastor. I think he's a. Yeah, Preacher. Tony Suarez. This was from 12 days ago. So obviously, if you're. If you're listening on podcasts, there's. It literally looks like he's in hell because there's fire on the screen behind him. But, yeah, so he's talking about snatching all those things from hell. And here's the thing. If you don't grow up in this world, you might think that that's tongue in cheek, right? Like a metaphor, because people use hell. Not even Christians will use hell as talking points of like, oh, yeah, well, our country's gonna go to hell. Like, no one really means, usually, like, a literal hell, but Christian nationalists do mean a literal hell because that's. That's what they believe in. Like, he's literally snatching. Like, he thinks that hell has had control of our government, and now we're snatching all those back from hell.

[B]

Yeah. Can we just say that's quite the setup. I mean, that is quite. As a professional ex musician, that's a nice stage to play on, man. Holy moly. So I looked up Tony Suarez really quick. He definitely comes out of, I think, the new apostolic Reformation. And so a very important piece of this for folks who don't know. This is a charismatic stream of, like, evangelical theology. And also they're very big on this idea that they can change God's mind or cause God to act on behalf of them if enough people request it. So they really believe that there are demonic strongholds and demonic fortresses on physical locations on Earth, and that if enough people agree in the spirit to declare that place being loosed or free or the shackle set free, God will do that. So the reason why this person is, like, stirring up the crowd and getting him to, you know, say these things like, we declare this. We declare that every judicial appointment is that they really believe that these prayers are affecting something in, like, the physical presence by. By changing something in the spirit world. So I know that can sound kind of wild for some people, but this is like a sincerely held by belief in that space.

[A]

That's my background. Those Pentecostals, what's so sad to me.

[C]

Is that their version of revival is so disconnected from human flourishing. It's so disconnected from the kinds of things that Jesus longed for to happen on earth. And so in their mind, I mean, this is coming on the heels of the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service, which many people call the revival. I think the word revival is being used way more frequently. All of a sudden, ever since that happened, literally, the vice president said it was a revival. I mean, they were naming the name of Jesus from the stage. So you have the most powerful men on earth, including Pete Hegseth, the Department of War chief, saying, this is a revival, and Christ is Lord. And so out of the name of, like, the most. The biggest warmonger in the world will declare Christ is Lord, and they'll say, we've got a revival. Meanwhile, we're not getting the kinds of things that Jesus wanted on earth.

[B]

But.

[C]

But because they get this token of, oh, they're saying Jesus's name, or people are praying particular prayers, that is all a substitute. And they're easily pacified. Like, they're so gullible. You just give them. You throw them a little bone, a little token. Hey, we're gonna. We're gonna have some praise and worship. We're even gonna do an altar call.

[A]

We're gonna.

[C]

We're gonna let you Christians be able to say as many spiritual things as you want. As long as when it comes to the way that we run this world, you're gonna let us do exactly what we want. And the Christians will say, absolutely, you go for it. You just make sure that we can pray at the end and we're good.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

So they have no real desire to actually see anything, like, the kingdom happen on Earth. And part of that is because it is their. Their spirituality is about the afterlife. So they're like, hey, an altar call happened. People got saved. This is a revival. And meanwhile, it's like, Pete Hegseth literally, like, wants to go to war. And also, they're on a war right now. Domestically, they're deploying troops to Portland. The ICE agents are abusing immigrants in our streets. Like, the world is becoming more dangerous. Our country is becoming less like a vision that Jesus would have had that welcomes the stranger that cares for the poor. And yet they're like, this is revival. Because they get these sort of tokens that, you know, like. Like being able to sing what a beautiful name it is at a rally, right?

[B]

Their favorite worship leader sang a song before the President said that he hates his enemies. So this must be a Christian thing. I mean, honestly, it's cheap grace, right? I mean, Dietrich Bonhoeffer would call it cheap grace. This is something that it doesn't require anything of people except to sign and pledge allegiance to empire. I mean, that's what it really comes down to, right? It is. I argue all the time. It's Antichrist in nature. You can't read the red letters of Jesus and come away thinking what Pete Hegseth and, and Trump and all those folks that 80% of white evangelicals voted for in 2016, 2020 and 2024, you know, is. Is doing. It's. It's absolutely wild to witness. Do you want to play then? Speaking of the revival, I did pull up the clip, Ryan, that you sent me of, of some people talking about the dichotomy between Erica Kirk saying that she forgives the man who killed her husband and Stephen Miller and Trump saying, we hate our enemies. Okay, do you want to. Who are these people that we're going to watch and listen to?

[C]

Well, so I don't know who this guy is. He's talking to Joe Rigney. So this is a Canon Press podcast. So Doug Wilson's publishing house, Canon, has several podcasts under their umbrella. So this is kind of a Doug Wilson acolyte. And Joe Rigney is the author of the Sin of Empathy. So a companion piece to Toxic Empathy. It makes for great bedfellows, those three. I wonder if they're friends, if they're like, competitors, if they're like, oh, I can't believe you tried to steal my thunder with the anti empathy book. I mean, how many anti empathy books can we really have in one year? But. So Joe Rigney, the author of the Sin of Empathy, is talking to some other Doug Wilson acolyte about the Charlie Kirk revival.

[B]

And Doug Wilson was featured on CNN a few weeks ago. He went viral for a lot of reasons, one of which saying that America should repeal the 19th amendment and we should go back to a one vote per family situation and essentially strip away women's right to vote. So that's Super. That's the world this is coming out of. Yeah. Yeah. So much fun. Here we go. Erica. I forgive him. Trump. I don't kind of dichotomy, right. Which are both, like, kind of what you want to hear from both, like. So this is where, like. So I loved Erica's speech. I loved all the speeches. But, like, Erica's, this was incredibly powerful. I forgive him in that note. And then Stephen Miller, like, you have nothing and we're coming for you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's literally.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You have nothing to build. Yeah. And you're looking at that going like, I saw somebody today. Was like, you have to choose between these. And I'm like, you don't actually. It's like, she's a Christian woman. And Jesus says, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you and forgive as you've been forgiven. And so she goes, I'm going to obey Jesus. And Stephen Miller is a magistrate. And the Lord Jesus says to him, punish the evildoer. Be a terror, an avenger of God's wrath. Bear the sword fully. And so he goes, I'm going to bear the sword and I'm going to forgive that man. Offer, extend forgiveness. And it's like, that's Christianity. That's Christian social ethics played out, like, in one moment. Treating people as responsible image bearers is love. Like to treat someone the way. Like to treat them as a moral agent and not as a case or a patient, you know, like that. That's better. Immoral agent, responsible what they do. So it's like, love your neighbor by executing him for the great evil that he did. Right. And preaching the gospel as he goes to the gallows. That all should happen and he can repent. And we'll see him in heaven if he repents. There you go.

[C]

That's Christianity, baby.

[B]

Thoughts, gang.

[A]

Where. What is he using to say that.

[C]

Jesus told Stephen, Jesus said in Bible, Jesus was like, I want you to be a terror and an avenger of death. That was the classic Jesus classic.

[B]

The way they get this biblically, though.

[A]

Do they use Revelation? Is that what they use for that?

[B]

Romans 13. That comes from Romans 13. And so in this view. So Romans 13 says, let everyone be subject to the govern. Yeah, I'm ready to go, man. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities have ex. That exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted. And those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For Rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of one of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you'll be commanded. For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid. For rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath that bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. I have just a few things to say now. I'll give it to you guys. Number one, these people did not apply this at all during COVID It was actually the opposite. They invented theologies for why this. They actually. No, I'm serious. These same exact people, Joe Rigney himself and Cannon Press, developed theologies why we're not supposed to obey tyrants. So that's number one. But number two, the way that, that, that, that, that Joe feels comfortable saying that Jesus said this is that their logic goes like this. The Bible is the inerrant written word of God. God is Jesus. Therefore Jesus wrote the entire Bible. Therefore this is as if Jesus himself was saying this. So they completely flatten out the complicated nature of the Bible, where it comes from, how it was written, how it was edited, who said what, et cetera. And they go, nope, it's all Jesus. And so the same Jesus that tells his followers or his disciples to love your enemies is the same Jesus that says, okay, the government should put people to death. And then what they do, there's this logic that they have called sphere sovereignty. Essentially, they divide the world up into three parts. The family, the church, the government. And they assign different roles to each of those. So that's why Joe says it's the magistrate's job to enforce Romans 13. And it is the Church's job, in this case, Erica, to embrace the teachings of Jesus. I'm just saying all this to give people the logic of how this works. It's obviously horseshit, but there is a.

[C]

Logic here that, that's really helpful. I, I think it. Because it, it is jarring to hear like, oh, wait, so Jesus's ethical commands don't apply to the kind of society we want to create. It only applies to these distinct individuals. But we don't want to build a world that loves our enemies. We just, just as an individual person. I think just to poke one hole in the logic, and I think there's a lot of holes. But first of all, I don't think that we should say Jesus said and then quote somebody that's not Jesus. I think that the Bible doesn't ever really teach us to do that. I think that's a really silly thing to do. But also, he said, jesus says to Stephen Miller, bear the sword, be an avenger of wrath. That's actually not what's happening in Romans 13. Romans 13 is not addressed to the magistrate or to the government. It's addressed to the church. This is not being. This is not telling the government, be as vengeful as possible. Be. Do violence on enemies. That's not what's happening here. He's saying to the church, be aware that this is how the government works. And you, as a persecuted church, being persecuted by the government, need to keep your nose clean in order to survive in a world where the government is, in fact, going to be an avenger and bear the sword. Now, if Paul actually had the ear of the government, you think he would say, no, you need to be more violent, bro. You need to be more of an avenger. You need to get him. That is not what's happening. But that seems to be how Joe wants it to be. In other words, he wants a more punitive society. He wants a society that does not look like Jesus's ethical commands. Jesus came with the news of the kingdom of God, which was news, like we said, not for the afterlife, but for the kind of world we want to build. The State of the Union address of the kingdom of God was the Beatitudes. Blessed are the poor, woe to the rich. Okay? This is a world that works for the vulnerable, where the last will be first. But Joe comes in and says, no, actually, I'm going to scrap all that and my word for the kind of world we want to build. I'm just going to take these two verses from Romans 13 about bearing the sword, and I'm going to say, get them. And I mean, there was so much crazy going on in that clip. One of the craziest things, though, is that they loved Stephen Miller's speech. I was shocked when he said, I loved all the speeches. And then they started laughing about the. The quotes where Stephen Miller said, you are nothing, you have nothing. And they were like, oh, yeah, that was. That was awesome, bro. Oh, man. Yeah, we have nothing. And that was distinct. That was one of the most white supremacist moments of the whole night, where he was literally doing a big us versus them. He talked about, we are Monticello. We are like. And so using all these White tropes that we built when actually most of this nation was built actually by brown people that were enslaved, not by immigrants.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Thomas Jefferson did not stack the bricks in Monticello. Okay? And. And then he's like, you have nothing. And who. Who is the people who has nothing? I mean, based on his. All the white tropes that he just rolled out, and based on all of his anti immigrant sentiment, he is literally demonizing and dehumanizing immigrant populations. I think anybody who's a Christ follower that should have been grievous to their heart and so just betrays a real lack of conscience. And the fact that that's the kind of punitive world that they want, that they loved. That dehumanizing language is incredibly revealing to me.

[A]

Not to mention, there are several historians that were talking online about the similarities to Stephen Miller's speech to a Nazi and like a literal Nazi in the 1930s. A couple of things I wanted to say too. So when he initially mentioned that about Jesus, I assumed anytime you. You hear people that were like, well, Jesus, the sissy Jesus is not a real Jesus, because they. They equate him with, like, who they believe is Jesus in Revelation, who comes, comes back as a roaring lion to, like, kill most people on earth. And in this vengeful attack, which is like end times theology, which is different, which is interesting, has not happened yet. So they're using, like, this idea of Jesus that does not exist yet and does not exist, period. But I also thought it was interesting that. Tim, you brought up a good point that they never bring up Romans 13 when a Democrat is president. They suddenly bring it up whenever the Republican is president. Like, I never saw these people using Romans 13 when Joe Biden was president. Case in point. Since you brought up Covid, will you pull up that screenshot of Sean Foyt?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So one thing that happened during COVID.

[C]

Want to see him?

[B]

I miss him so much.

[C]

You can't go a whole episode without seeing my boy, my precious boy.

[A]

So if y' all remember, there were. There were, like, people were advised to stay home and to not gather in large groups because we were in a global pandemic where millions of people were dying from this virus. But of course, Christians had to think, oh, this is attack on the church. So Sean Foyt started doing these protests, worship events that a lot of times he would do without permits, and he would do it in places where Covid was a hot. Was like, hot spot where they were. There was a surge happening. And how he justified it was saying, oh, is it not showing up for you?

[B]

There it goes.

[A]

There it is. He was saying, and I quote, if I can get it, that I refuse to allow a virus with a 99% survival rate keep me from plundering hell to populate heaven. So he literally uses the belief in hell that there's this, that that hell is a literal place and is real as his reason for holding super spreader events.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where people would. Would get a deadly disease.

[B]

He sold merch calling it Jesus Christ super spreader. That was. He sold merch doing that. He grifted off of that. You know, it's interesting, my. Our friend Lisa, Sharon Harper, who's amazing, she taught me to ask a very important question that I never thought about. But it's so obvious. Who benefits from whatever rhetoric is being espoused? Who benefits when Sean says that? Who benefits when Joe Rigney says that? Right. They do. And that's why we always say that, that Christian nationalism is built on power and control. The only reason why Joe Biden was attacked and Romans 13 was never in play, and now magically, Romans 13 is in play. And how dare we not submit to the governing authorities over us is because Christian nationalists have who they want in power. So now these passages are relevant and they have the authority of God behind them. But I promise you, the second Trump is out and a Democrat gets elected, you will Never see Romans 13 used that way ever once. You will only see the opposite. How evil this is, how demonic this administration is, how they're destroying the country they're destroying yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. And that's because for the Christian nationalists, if it doesn't give them power and, or control, they don't want it. They don't want it. It's just that simple. It's just that simple.

[A]

We actually have a clip of someone. Who was it? I sent you one.

[B]

It's he.

[A]

Who he's. He's literally talking about while Joe Biden was president.

[B]

I know. April, I'm teeing you up. I got you.

[C]

I know.

[B]

We have synergy finally on the show. I can read your mind.

[A]

I know.

[B]

What episode was it though? Is it Tony Perkins?

[A]

Tony Perkins.

[B]

Okay, I got that one.

[A]

Yeah. So Tony Perkins, he's part of the Family Research Council.

[B]

It's this one, right? This is the clip.

[A]

Yes, yes. So this was from March of 2021. So this is during Joe Biden's term.

[B]

Let us. Let's see how often he quotes Romans 13.

[C]

I bet he said that we should be subject to our governing authority, even when he. We don't like him.

[B]

Let's find out. I am not going to put any kind of spin on it. The policies that are coming out of this administration are literally from the pit of hell within within hours of taking office, forcing you as a taxpayer to be involved in funding abortions not just here in America, but around the world. The attack on religious freedom, the attack on our children with forcing schools, this transgenderism on elementary schools, secondary schools, colleges, and our nation's military, our military has now become once again a laboratory for social experimentation. There's treating our men and women in uniform as if they were laboratory rats for their social policy. I just want to let the audience know that all of these statements out of his mouth are lies, just so we're clear. Like, it's not even, like this is true and we have to talk about it. It's complete and utter propaganda from top to bottom to just keep that in mind as he's talking. This man's not a truth teller. So America is in a very, very, I would say, precarious situation. In fact, Jack, I was just mentioning you. We're on this two year journey through the Bible called Stand on the Word. And we just finished Jeremiah this morning. And if you look at Jeremiah in the, the final chapters, chapters 46 through 50, you know, God judges Judah for its idolatry and then all of the nations around are judged for their idolatry. And then, then Babylon is ultimately judged for its idolatry and its pride. And I just read on the plane on the way out here in California, they are now considering in their school curriculum to where they're going to be teaching these pagan religions from the indigenous people and having the students actually go through these incantations and pray to these pagan gods. You know, we've seen idolatry in different forms, but now it is so blatant. I mean, we're in, we're in the 11th hour and I believe America is in serious trouble. Do you want to pause here so you can respond, Brian?

[C]

Well, I guess I was just thinking about how you'll never hear a Christian nationalist or an evangelical talk about the idolatry, the evil, the wickedness of, oh, I don't know, the genocide against indigenous people, the plundering of indigenous land, the, the way that we absolutely came in as colonizers and stamped out an entire civilization and exerted our own with superiority and dominance. They'll never call out that as an evil, and yet they'll say that to Teach about their existence and their background and their livelihood and their beliefs to, to learn about the beliefs of another culture. That's the real evil. I think it's just, it's pretty shocking.

[B]

This isn't idolatry. The Secretary of War, under my direction, the soldiers who fought at the Battle of Wounded Knee will keep their medals. This decision is final. Their place in history is settled. Just so we're clear, like our military slaughtered women and children at the Battle of Wounded Knee. And Hegseth is like, they're keeping their medals. It's a good thing.

[C]

I actually appreciate that because I do think that that's, it's just honest. That's what our military is and has been and has done. We are an imperial superpower. We are a colonizer. And yeah, we give medals to people for, for stamping out other people's civilizations. And that is who we are. And I just wish that Christians could kind of own that and grieve it and then. So, yeah, I mean there's just never been any kind of real reparative work for that kind of thing. And by the way, that has been undercurred by hell doctrine as well. The reality, what makes them pagan and us not pagan? Well, it's that we. And this is linked to white supremacy. Part of what made a group of people white was that they were the ones who had the keys to heaven and hell. And those other cultures were damned and pagan and they needed to be converted and colonized. And you can justify just about anything when it's like, well, well, our way goes to heaven, your way goes to hell, therefore your culture needs to be actually destroyed. We shouldn't even teach about it in schools.

[B]

To be clear, I just want to.

[A]

Say I did a quick Google search. So a bunch of Christians sued California for teaching about that different. What they said are Aztec chants and prayers. And it looks like they won. They settled a lawsuit and then they removed it from.

[C]

Meanwhile they want prayer in school and the ten Commandments up on the wall.

[B]

It's Christian supremacy. It's Christian supremacy. Right. And, and, and you know, one thing that I've learned as I've kind of rethought my faith and I've learned from people who are not like me. The history of America is that this is what white evangelicalism is participating in is a long line of this, right? From the doctrine of discovery to how we thought about race based chattel slavery in this country, Jim Crow laws, lynching, the genocide of the indigenous people. Like it is a Christian supremacist idea that says anyone who is not like us religiously is a pagan and must be erased, essentially. And we are the only ones who worship the true God the right way. Everyone must submit to how we view the world. And you know, look, in public education, children are owed and are owed to be taught about, about how the world, even the ones beyond their bubble functions. And whether they like it or not, indigenous people exist and they have rich traditions. I would argue that many of us can learn from when it comes to how we relate. Yeah, totally.

[C]

We think about how as Christians, how little we regard the land and the earth.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

We could have learned so much from our indigenous neighbors about how this planet itself is sacred and about community, about the way that we're all connected to each other. And instead of learning from them, we stamp them out. I do, I want to quote. There's a quote I include in the book that I think is really powerful from Danielle Thomas where she talks about how much this robbed from people that we converted as well. So as a black person, Thomas says for black folks, and I imagine other people of the global majority, convincing us to recognize our inherited spiritual practices as demonic is the greatest trick white supremacy has ever pulled on us. How wicked that not only did we say these things are pagan, but we told black people, your own ancestry is pagan. You have to actually, you're going to benefit from learning about our religion, but you can't even learn about your own religion from your own ancestors.

[A]

And this goes back to why are they so afraid of anything not Christian being taught a belief in hell? He literally opens it up that the policies of the Biden administration, he says literally, literally calm from the pits of hell wake. So if you teach the. The fear is if you teach someone something that is not Christian, right. And it makes them interested or curious to where maybe one day they're no longer that particular brand of Christianity that will then lead that child to hell. And for these people, that is like the absolute worst thing that can happen. And honestly, if you believe that that is the worst thing that can happen. There's no. Nothing worse, nothing worse than dying and going to hell for eternity.

[C]

And one of the things I talk about my book is how that really does make it impossible to engage with our neighbors in any kind of way. That includes mutuality, mutual respect, learning. You are going to engage with a posture of superiority and domination when you believe that your way goes to heaven and your neighbor's way goes to hell. And I just want to be really, really clear that that is not how Jesus operated at all. In fact, Jesus really tried to turn that around in one of the most famous places, and I can point to quite a few places, but the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were not just ethnically despised in like a racist way by Jewish people. They were also religiously despised because the Samaritans worshiped at the wrong temple. They worshiped a different kind of God. They had bad theology. They were known as heretics. If there was a hell according to the Jewish worldview, the Samaritans were going there. But Jesus tells a story where the moral of the story, sometimes people get it wrong with the parable of the Good Samaritan because the moral of the story is not, hey, God can even save Samaritans, right? That's not the moral story because the Samaritan's not saved. It's actually even more countercultural and mind blowing than that. The moral of the story is that salvation comes from the Samaritan. The Samaritan is the savior figure in the story. The heretic is the Savior, the one with the bad theology that should be going to hell. No, the way that we are saved is by recognizing that I don't have everything figured out. Actually, my superiority puts me in a ditch on the side of the road. And my salvation will be found in that person that I'm writing off that I'm saying they're going to hell. I can write off their spirituality. I, they, they need what I have. I don't need what they have. That superior mindset is what damns us. And our salvation comes when we recognize the humanity and the divinity in that cultural other. And we evangelicalism is in the ditch on the side of the road. And they will be saved when they realize that the people that they're condemning, their queer neighbors, those are, that's where they'll receive salvation. The indigenous people that they're saying, they're pagan. They need to hear our prayers. No, you need to hear their prayers. That's where salvation will come. Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, Executive Director.

[B]

Of the New Evangelicals.

[C]

Thanks for listening to our podcast.

[B]

I just wanted to take a minute.

[C]

To personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tme, we're creating space for people.

[B]

Of faith who care about justice, compassion.

[C]

And living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, T.

[B]

And E Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to.

[C]

Connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement.

[B]

So if what we're doing has been.

[C]

Helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen, or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE.

[B]

Connect or make a donation.

[C]

Your support means the world to us.

[B]

Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[C]

Hi, my name is Leanne.

[A]

I live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

[B]

I'm 65 years old, and both my husband and I grew up in a.

[A]

Fairly conservative evangelical church. But about 20 years ago, we began to question some of the teachings in.

[B]

That church, and we embarked on our.

[A]

Own process of deconstruction and reconstruction, although it didn't have a name at the time. And we have recently started attending a.

[C]

Wonderful church that is fully affirming and fully inclusive of our LGBTQ siblings in Christ.

[B]

And we absolutely love it.

[C]

It's the best faith experience of our lives.

[A]

And I so appreciate Tim and the new evangelicals team.

[C]

I so appreciate the online resource.

[A]

And I have become a donor because.

[B]

I believe so strongly in the really.

[A]

Important work they're doing, and I would encourage anyone listening to consider doing the same.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Another thing that, that, that a lot of these Christian nationalists will do is they. They literally do not love their neighbor. Which is why you see such an uptick in demonizing empathy. Because they know they don't actually have empathy, but when they get pushed, pushback for not being kind and not treating their neighbor well, they use hell as the fallback. Right? Like, especially, like, I feel like, especially when it comes to queer people or LGBTQ community.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They'll say things like, they're an abomination or like, they're demonic. They literally have demons, like, like, literally demonizing an entire group of people. And when you get pushback on that, like, well, they're humans and they were born that way, like, what do you expect them to do? They'll be like, I'm not being mean, right? I'm just telling them hard truth to save them from hell.

[B]

Right. Which ironically, only pushes them farther away, which does the very opposite. I mean, we were talking about this before we started recording, and I was ranting about how counterintuitive this claim is, because ultimately, I don't think they. I don't think that deep down, these people actually want queer people to get saved. Because if they did, wouldn't you do everything that you could do, including using pronouns and welcoming them in your churches, just so that they would get saved and go to heaven and not hell? I mean, it's the same logic I have. It's the same logic with the anti abortion argument. Right. If you really believe that children are being murdered en masse every single day because of abortion, wouldn't you want to do everything humanly possible to minimize abortions, including contraceptive access, including livable wages, which we know is correlated to abortions, you know, affordable health care? You would think that if you thought murder was happening, whatever it took to stop murder from happening, you would do. But no, instead they fight against those policies and they advocate for this total abortion ban, which is so impractical, and actually kills women who actually need health care. Right. So it's not really about, in my opinion, the propaganda that they push of murder of children. It's about using that as a Trojan horse for more power and more control.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe you'd actually want men who assault women to be held accountable and punished instead of electing them to your government.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Trump has a Cyrus anointing, April. You heard? He's anointed by God. Okay, you.

[C]

Oh, yeah, let's see the tweets and then I'll have, like, a small take, I guess.

[B]

So I. I'll try and zoom in here, but this is what this. This is October. This is almost three years ago now, which is wild. Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

I use this example in my book because it's just a perfect example. There's plenty of these out there. If you push back on anyone from this Christian nationalist world. And to be clear, most of them won't claim they're Christian nationalists. They think they're just being good Christians.

[B]

But that's.

[A]

Yeah, I know. She's.

[C]

You not apologizing. Oh, my God.

[A]

So Megan Bastro, she's actually. She's. Her and Ali Beth Stucky are. They're mean. Like, they're kind of bullies on the end of. They're.

[B]

They just are nasty.

[A]

Yeah, they. They weaponize Jesus in, like, a very mean girl way. So she tweets, I make no apologies for mocking people who claim the name of Christ but have pronouns in their bio. So she's. She's just going after other Christians at this point.

[B]

Oh, look, Tim, it's not this. Under the new evangelicals. I said, I wonder if, in Meg's view, she walks up to Jesus in heaven and he says, well done, pronoun warrior.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Hey, look, Allie Bestucky said something too. What did she say?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

Nailed it.

[A]

Says, of course.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So then a bunch of people pushed back and, like, okay. Don't you think mocking isn't kind of. You think that's not a very loving Christian thing?

[B]

Maybe counterintuitive. Again, just maybe counterintuitive.

[A]

Right. Maybe not the most. Love thy neighbor, even love thy enemy. If she. She would view those people as enemies. So she quote, tweets one of those responses and says, these are Jesus's words for his neighbors. The only gentle, only soft Christ is a myth perpetuated to allow wolves to come into church and lead some to hell by preaching a Jesus who did not harshly confront the sin of those who were brazenly rewriting God's law. And she quotes. What she quotes here, though, is Jesus condemning religious hypocrites. Not for being too loving.

[C]

It's incredible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For enforcing laws over love.

[C]

Literally, the things she is doing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Here is a picture of Jesus yelling at me, literally.

[B]

Let me read it for the podcast audience. She quotes Matthew 23:27. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you are like whitewashed tombs which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanliness. Yeah, Meg. Yeah.

[C]

I think you think when I think about the point you made, Tim, which was a good one, that this isn't even effective. Like, this is not how you're going to win queer people to Christ by mocking them. Right. Like, if you actually believed in hell, that they were going to hell and you wanted to save them from hell, then you wouldn't go about mocking them. And you made the point, they don't even believe that. And I think I would even go further and say, this isn't for them. This is not for queer people. This is to reinforce boundaries. This is to show people that are inside of evangelicalism. Don't you fucking put pronouns in your bio. This is or out or we will make fun of you. This is to reinforce those boundaries of what is appropriate for the in group and the out group. Ostracizing them and mocking them is really primarily for reinforcing the ingroup mentality so that it's a shot across the bow. It's the same reason, you know, when John Piper tweeted, farewell, Rob Bell, that was a signal to the rest of us, don't question hell or you will be excluded. Right. And so it's a reminder of what will get you excluded. And the reason they do that. The reason. It's the same reason pastors tell their parishioners don't go to queer weddings, because it'll put a stamp of approval on that sin. Even if your own child is getting married, don't go to their wedding because you don't want to put a stamp of approval on a sin that's going to lead them to hell. Right? And you might say, tim, wait, if you really loved your kid and you wanted them to get saved, then actually rejecting them in relationship is not going to work, right? No, because the whole point is he knows that if you go to that wedding, if you draw close in relationship, if you encounter their love up close and personal and you see their humanity and you're reminded that these people are people. When you start to humanize people, that is very unsafe for the in group's boundaries because then those boundaries become porous and you realize, wait a second, these people we've been dehumanizing, they are actually in many ways more human than we are. And you begin to draw near to them. That's how your mind changes. So in order to keep people from changing, Meg has to mock those people who are even showing humanity to queer people. We have to mock that because that is the first step. That's a slippery slope into actually loving your neighbor and actually realizing we don't have to condemn them at all.

[A]

That was literally very hard. It's hard to demonize someone once you're close enough to see the divine in them also. I mean, and that's why there's such. They put such boundaries on keeping people in and saying, like, go to Christian school, homeschool your kids. Don't send them to Satan's playground, AKA public school, because they might meet someone that is very kind and loving and human, but is a quote unquote pagan in their mind.

[B]

It was asking those questions on the new evangelicals when I first started the account that got me kicked out of my church. To your point. Right. They saw where I was going. I was becoming an issue for parents. They were worried about, about, about me indoctrinating their kids only because I wasn't even fully affirming yet. Just for asking the question. Maybe there's room for more disagreement than I was led to believe when it comes to queer inclusion. And it's, it's exactly what you said, Brian. It was, oh, Tim is getting too close to boundaries that we deem non negotiable. And if he crosses over, he's now the out group. Now he becomes the wolf in sheep's clothing. Right. And so I agree. I think that a lot of these kinds of things that we see from Megan and others are warning shots to the in group saying, don't you dare, which is honestly so, like, I always wonder for Megan and for others, what is it that. That about how they're wired that makes them want to be cruel, that makes them want to be exclusive? Like, I don't get that. And I say this as a former evangelical, you know, I mean, I was someone who. I'm reading the book Unchristian back in the day by the Barna group, and I'm like, guys, if all we're doing is getting people to walk down and what's up?

[A]

I was gonna say, I have a theory on it. That's why I raised my hand. Please continue your thought.

[B]

I thought you were gonna interrupt me. I'm sorry. I wanted to make space for you. But, you know, even back then, as a conservative evangelical, I was saying, okay, guys, if we have all this data that most people in America pray to prayer but don't have any kind of, like, fruit to show for it, shouldn't we, like, rethink what it means to be a Christian or how we present the gospel so people don't go to hell? You know, that's how I was always thinking about this stuff. And there are people out there in these spaces that essentially just like to be assholes. They. They. They almost get off on being cruel and on drawing boundaries. They just don't like other people. And I do not understand why not. Why don't we all want to get along? Why don't we want to work together for a common cause? Why don't we want to make sure all of our neighbors have affordable health care in the world's richest country? We can easily afford it. But no, we need the Department of War to be funded at almost a trillion dollars, and we have to pass big, beautiful bills that strip away more healthcare access from the most, you know, oppressed and marginalized among us. It just drives me. Why would. Why? Why?

[C]

My answer is the world, the flesh, and the devil, Tim.

[B]

Damn it.

[C]

I think that that is what spiritual warfare is. And this is why the spirituality of hell that I talk about, like, I think that true spirituality is pushing against those forces that cause us to demonize our neighborhood, that cause us to draw boundaries that don't reflect the spirit of Christ. I don't need God to other somebody. I don't need the Holy Spirit to notice that, oh, a queer person is different from me, and maybe I'm going to bully them. No, that is the power of the flesh. And the irony is that their spirituality is so empty of Christ, so empty of The Holy Spirit, that the very things that they call spiritual standing up for truth is literally just our worst impulses put on display. And that's what hell, I think, often does. It gives you credence to let your worst, most divisive impulses be in charge of your spirituality. Because we can just pull the hell card. Oh, we're saving people from hell so I can be a judgeful bigot and actually call it spirituality when it's actually nothing like the spirituality of Jesus.

[A]

Here's my theory. You ready?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I think most of these people are living hell on earth and they have a deep envy that they don't realize of people who are actually living in freedom and able to do what they want and to make their own decisions and to trust their own instincts. Because when you are in this world, you are constantly second guessing your own thoughts. You're constantly, you're not able to have real genuine relationships unless those relationships are with people who hold the exact same beliefs as you. Because otherwise then everybody is just a project. It's someone to save and not someone to just get to know. You don't live curiously. You're constantly. The way that they, they repress natural desires, Your, your natural instincts. Because everything, of everything that is natural about you, you're taught is evil. And that is an exhausting way to live. And so when you see people who are able to just go out and watch, you know, an HBO show that is TV mature, you know, or like it's, it's like sometimes really little things. But I remember being very kind of jealous. I would have never admitted it. It was a. I don't even know that I realized it was that. But there was this level of, of envy that you have when you see people able to just live their life without the constant idea of, oh my gosh, what's going to happen if I die? What's going to happen to this really kind person that I'm getting to know if they die and go to hell? So the defense mechanism to all of that is to just be an a hole, right? Like it's all, it's almost like, okay, well, yeah, they're, they're living their, their life now and they're happy and they're able to do what they want, but they'll get theirs because hell's coming for them. And even though my life is miserable right now, I have heaven waiting for me.

[B]

I, yeah, it's a great theory. I, I believe it. All this conversation is telling me is that we're real Christians and we're going to heaven for sure. And our enemies are definitely hellbound, so.

[C]

I knew it. I always knew it.

[B]

Yeah. Congratulations, Brian. You're definitely in, man. I think we accomplished a lot of ground today.

[C]

Oh, that was great.

[B]

I mean, we did deep theology, we did some research responses. We. We unpack some like, Christian nationalism nonsense. So, I mean, Brian, your book is out now. Your book's been out for about a full week now. I think as of this recording, when it's going to drop. So the book is Hell Bent how the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from A Spirituality of Love, written by Brian Wrecker. It's out wherever you can get your books. It's also out, out on audiobook, Brian.

[C]

Yeah, I did. I did the audio myself, which was really fun. Well, there you go. And I was talking about. That is a fun experience to do that reading.

[B]

I believe it.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

I got a. I got fired up sometimes, you know, like, I get that.

[A]

I know you had some preacher moments in this episode.

[B]

Yeah, definitely.

[C]

Sorry. Sorry.

[B]

No, you're good, Brian. You're good. Well, this was fun. Anything else, April? Did I miss anything? I think we got everything.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we'll see if we're actually are true Christians on whether or not we get raptured.

[B]

True, true.

[A]

In the next 24 hours.

[C]

Yeah, it could still happen. Wouldn't that be nice? Like, I'm not against it. That's the thing.

[B]

Like, if I prayed for it.

[C]

Oh, let's go. Sorry. Am I allowed to say that on this?

[B]

You could say, yeah, it's fine. We'll put a little, little E button again. We're living in our freedom in Christ, baby. We just dropped that bomb whenever we want, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I just think that, like, that's the thing though. Like, I. That's not what spirituality is not about escaping this world and that, that is that world. Whether it's hell, whether it's the rapture, they have a spirituality of escape. And it's like, what if work of spirituality is actually rolling up our sleeves and figuring out how to love our neighbors here and now? If that's the work, I'm sorry, I wasn't prepared for that at all. In evangelicalism, 100%.

[B]

I don't know. I don't want to go off a tangent here. So I'll just say I agree with you all the way. The last 30 seconds, I'll say is just think about all the things we can get done on Earth if all those people get raptured. We can just. We can accomplish a lot I mean, there is no more Department of War. Hegseth is up there raging war on heaven because it's too inclusive. You know, I'm just saying, like, like, I. If the rapture is real, I don't mind being left behind at this point because we can get a lot of shit done if those Evangelical health care, maybe. Yeah. So I'm saying livable wages, affordable, affordable education. Maybe even like paid family leave. Oh, I mean, talk about a Marxist utopia. Am I right?

[C]

What if, like, they Rapture and then Jesus actually comes back and he's like, actually just, like, want them as far away from me as possible. We'll hang out down here. I was afraid if I came back while they were still here, they would deport me, so. And then I came back.

[B]

Yes, exactly. All right, well, friends, listen. Thank you so much for watching and listening. If you're. If you're watching this on YouTube, we of course love your thoughts and comments. I'm. I'm kind of curious how many of you grew up with this kind of hell belief and how deeply entrenched you were in the whole thing, because it could be tough to. To think about differently. So make sure that you leave a comment. Please subscribe to the channel. We're very close to 10,000 subs, so if you can hit that like, like button and subscribe button, that would be great. If you're listening on podcasts, thank you so much. Please make sure to give the show a rating and a review, and we'll see you live on Thursday, either on Substack with Lincoln Square Media or right here on YouTube. Is that it, April? Anything else?

[A]

I think that's it.

[B]

Cool. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

And I'm April Lajoy. Thanks, Brian, for being here.

[B]

Yeah, thanks, Brian.

[C]

Thanks, guys.