The Tim & April Show – Episode 52
Why Christian Nationalists Are Hellbent on Hell
Aired: October 7, 2025
Host: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy (The New Evangelicals)
Guest: Brian Wrecker, public theologian & author of "Hellbent: How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love"
Episode Overview
This episode explores the persistent power of hell in American Christian consciousness, focusing on how Christian Nationalists use the concept to control behavior, maintain in-group boundaries, and justify harmful policies toward outsiders. The hosts are joined by theologian and author Brian Wrecker, who dissects the theological, psychological, and political implications of "hell" as both doctrine and tool of fear. Through clips and commentary, the conversation exposes the deep links between hell, Christian Nationalism, and exclusivity—contrasted with a call for a faith rooted in love, empathy, and justice.
Main Themes & Purpose
- Unpacking Hell: Why, even though public figures rarely invoke hell explicitly, it remains a hidden mechanism of control within Christian Nationalism.
- Hell as Fear Tactic: How belief in hell is weaponized to discourage doubt, deconstruction, and dissent among Christians.
- Boundaries & Exclusion: The "us vs. them" mentality supported and justified by hell, especially toward marginalized groups.
- Theological Deconstruction: Challenging the traditional doctrines of hell and framing alternative Christian spiritualities centered on love rather than fear.
- Christian Nationalism's Endgame: Exposing how hell-talk enables power, hierarchy, and ongoing injustices dressed up as Christian virtue.
Episode Structure & Key Segments
1. Introduction: Setting the Tone (00:00–02:54)
- Hosts Tim and April joke about their evangelical upbringings—how talking about hell could be “fun.”
- Guest Brian Wrecker is introduced and celebrated for his recent book and viral writing on Christian Nationalism and hell.
"Only like a progressive, deconstructed hell-Christian could say, 'We're going to talk about hell and it's going to be fun.'" — April [01:09]
2. Brian Wrecker on Why “Hell” Won’t Let Go (04:34–08:25)
- Brian unpacks how hell operated as the primary control mechanism in his own faith background and deconstruction process.
- The threat of hell “keeps questioning unsafe,” forcing conformity and suppressing honest exploration.
- Once you challenge hell, the whole theological "sweater" starts to unravel: the meaning of salvation, Jesus' purpose, and Christian identity.
“Hell makes questioning unsafe. It makes exploring outside of the lines unsafe. ... You thought you were just pulling that one thread out of the sweater, but it ends up unraveling the entire sweater, the sweater being Christianity.” — Brian [05:52]
3. Hell Belief as Core of Christian Nationalism (08:25–12:41)
- Tim and April discuss the way in which evangelical systems hinge almost entirely on afterlife anxiety.
- The panel notes how Christian nationalists, though rarely explicit about hell in policy or public rhetoric, rely on it “underneath everything” to justify exclusion and “righteous” persecution.
- Notable discussion of Rob Bell’s question: “If there was no hell, would you still follow Jesus?”
“If there’s no hell, what did you save me from? ... The whole point for me of entering into a relationship with God as a little kid was because I was told the consequences for not.” — Brian [07:02]
4. Clip Commentary: Wesley Huff and the Bumper Sticker Gospel (15:48–25:34)
Clip Breakdown: Christian apologist Wesley Huff appears on a secular podcast defending hell as “locked on the inside” and “God giving you what you want.” [16:35–19:21]
Key Discussion Points
- Wes strings together classic evangelical soundbites, but critics highlight the lack of internal logical consistency.
- Contrast between Calvinist predestination ("God chooses") and popular apologetic “choice”-based hell, showing internal theological contradiction.
- The dangerous arrogance in assuming only “our group” really wants God.
- Notably, the “mental gymnastics” performed to shift responsibility for hell off God and onto “those who choose wrong.”
“Like, I just feel like every phrase out of his mouth is a soundbite...they’re all bumper stickers.” — Brian [17:37]
“The only people that really want God are their people that really agree with them...” — Brian [20:32]
- Emphasis on the problematic binary: “heaven for us, hell for everyone else” — even within Christian subgroups.
“It’s the death of a thousand qualifications. Once you get outside the bubble...eternal conscious torment isn’t even the oldest, most orthodox view.” — Tim [25:54]
5. What the Bible Actually Says About Afterlife (26:48–28:22)
- Challenging the entire heaven/hell framework for being unbiblical—highlighting that the biblical vision is of a remade world, not disembodied reward/punishment.
- Even leading conservative scholars (NT Wright cited) support a this-world focus for the “Kingdom of God.”
“The whole idea [in scripture] is about a new earth...not about going somewhere else when you die.” — Tim [26:48]
6. Christian Nationalists, Hell, and Power (36:41–42:40)
Clip: Tony Suarez Preaches "Snatching America From the Fire" [36:41–42:40]
- Suarez uses explicit hell imagery to frame political battle for America: “snatching every judicial appointment...from the fire.”
- Hosts highlight the literalism here—not just metaphor. Hell is real; their political opposites are demonically controlled, and their victories are spiritual warfare.
- Ties to New Apostolic Reformation theology—prayer and declarations believed to change spiritual geography.
“If you don’t grow up in this world, you might think that’s tongue in cheek...Christian nationalists do mean a literal hell.” — April [39:16]
7. Dichotomy of Forgiveness vs. Vengeance in Christian Nationalism (43:40–51:27)
Clip: Joe Rigney on the Death Penalty and "Christian Social Ethics" [43:40–51:59]
- The panel discusses a clip in which Christian Nationalists approve both vengeance (“we’re coming for you” – Stephen Miller) and selective forgiveness (“I forgive him” – Erica Kirk).
- Rigney argues that Jesus’ teachings on loving enemies apply only to individuals, not society; the state’s job is vengeance and executions (Romans 13).
“So, love your neighbor by executing him for the great evil that he did ... That’s Christianity, that’s Christian social ethics played out, like, in one moment.” — Joe Rigney [46:01]
- Brian and Tim dissect the abuse of Romans 13, and point out the historical context: Paul was writing to persecuted Christians, not the powers-that-be.
“The Bible is never teaching the government to be as vengeful as possible...He’s saying to the church, be aware this is how the government works.” — Brian [48:48]
8. Hell as Rhetorical Weapon Against Political Enemies (54:17–62:11)
Clip: Christian Nationalist Rhetoric under Biden Administration (Tony Perkins) [56:04–60:39]
- Perkins and others call Democratic policies “literally from the pit of hell,” especially those supporting LGBTQ+ rights and inclusion of indigenous or non-Christian curriculum.
- The panel exposes the hypocrisy: Romans 13 (submit to government) is invoked only when Republicans are in power.
- Brian unpacks the function of the “hell” framework in justifying Christian supremacy and colonial violence:
“Part of what made a group of people white was that they were the ones who had the keys to heaven and hell… You can justify just about anything when it’s ‘our way goes to heaven, your way goes to hell.’” — Brian [59:24]
9. The Real-World Harm: Demonizing Empathy & Excluding Minorities (68:09–78:36)
- The discussion turns toward how “hell” justifies demonizing empathy, particularly toward LGBTQ+ people or “liberal Christians.”
- Various Christian influencers (Megan Basham, Allie Beth Stuckey) are cited as using hell to defend mockery and exclusion of those who use pronouns or show inclusion.
- Brian details how this exclusion is less about changing “outsider” behavior, and more about policing the boundaries of the in-group, weaponizing hell to maintain conformity and ostracize dissent.
“This is to reinforce boundaries...Don’t you fucking put pronouns in your bio. Or you’re out.” — Brian [73:41]
10. Why the Obsession: Psychological & Social Roots (78:38–82:31)
- April posits that those most obsessed with hell are often living in an internal “hell on earth,” envious of those with the freedom to live authentically.
- Hell becomes a means of deferred justice: “They’ll get theirs because hell’s coming for them, even though my life is miserable right now.”
11. Conclusion: Escaping the Spirituality of Escape (82:09–end)
- The episode ends on a call to move away from a spirituality of fear and escapism (hell, the rapture) and into a practical faith centered on love, justice, and neighborliness on earth.
- Tim jokes: “If the rapture is real, I don’t mind being left behind at this point—we can get a lot of shit done!”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “You thought you were just pulling that one thread out of the sweater, but it ends up unraveling the entire sweater, the sweater being Christianity.” — Brian [05:52]
- “If there was no hell, would you still follow Jesus?” — (Citing Rob Bell) [08:37]
- “Like, I just feel like every phrase out of his [apologist’s] mouth is a soundbite...it doesn’t add up.” — Brian [17:37]
- “It’s the death of a thousand qualifications...eternal conscious torment isn’t even the oldest, most orthodox view.” — Tim [25:54]
- “You’re really lucky if you’re one of those Christians, because you’re winning the lottery.” — Tim [24:24]
- “This is to reinforce those boundaries...it’s a shot across the bow.” — Brian [73:41]
- “True spirituality is pushing against those forces that cause us to demonize our neighborhood.” — Brian [77:36]
- “Their spirituality is so empty of Christ, so empty of the Holy Spirit, that the very things they call spiritual standing up for truth is literally just our worst impulses put on display.” — Brian [77:37]
- “I think most of these people are living hell on earth ... there was this level of envy that you have when you see people able to just live their life...” — April [78:38]
- “If the rapture is real, I don’t mind being left behind at this point—we can get a lot of shit done.” — Tim [82:31]
Episode Takeaways
- Far from being a “secondary issue,” hell sustains the logic and emotional climate of Christian Nationalism, empowering cruelty, exclusion, and hierarchy.
- The “certainty” around hell is psychologically manufactured—rooted in fear, not divine revelation.
- The historic Christian tradition is richer and more varied than what hell-focused gatekeepers claim; this opens the door for a spirituality of love, justice, and practical compassion.
- Ultimately, to move forward, individuals and communities must dismantle the control mechanisms of hell and redirect energy toward building the "Kingdom" Jesus actually talked about—on earth, for all neighbors.
Further Resources
- Book Recommendation: “Hellbent: How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love” by Brian Wrecker (Audio book available)
- Connect with The New Evangelicals: Community, resources, and further discussion at thenewenvangelicals.com
End of Summary