The Tim & April Show – Episode 54: Tim Debated Allie Stuckey on Jubilee and Has the Tea

Podcast: The Tim & April Show
Host(s): Tim Whitaker, April Lajoy
Network: The New Evangelicals
Episode Release Date: October 15, 2025
Main Focus: Reflections on Tim’s debate with Allie Stuckey on Jubilee regarding the intersection of faith, politics, and culture.

Episode Overview

In this special live-streamed episode, Tim Whitaker and April Lajoy dissect Tim's recent appearance on the Jubilee debate series, where he and conservative commentator Allie Beth Stuckey discussed hot-button topics on faith and culture. The conversation is an honest, insider look at what led Tim to participate, behind-the-scenes realities, debate tactics, and the broader implications for engaging across the ideological spectrum. Rooted in The New Evangelicals’ approach of love, justice, and inclusivity, Tim and April break down both the structure and substance of the debate, highlight problematic apologetic strategies, and reflect on the challenges of “debating” Christian nationalism in popular media.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Tim Participated in the Jubilee Debate

• Motivations for Accepting: Tim details his longstanding awareness of Allie Stuckey’s work and his prior critiques of her arguments ([03:29]). He initially hesitated, concerned about the "debate" format that favors hot takes over nuance and had seen how such setups could be used to score “points” instead of foster real conversation.
• Consultation: Tim consulted trusted friends before agreeing to ensure he wasn’t just fueling an unconstructive spectacle. He ultimately decided that visibility for progressive Christians willing to publicly engage was beneficial ([06:45]).

"Honestly, if I could help people know that there are Christians out there who are faithful to Jesus and who want to find a better path forward... that's a win for me." – Tim Whitaker ([06:57])

2. The Empty Promise of Debate Formats

• No Real Minds Changed: Both hosts note how these “debates” rarely shift beliefs—instead, each side claims victory and further entrenches their followers ([07:11]).
• Format Constraints: The debate allows only 2 minutes per speaker, leading to frequent interruptions and little space for nuance ([08:09]).
• Superficial Engagement: Short timeframes force debaters into soundbites rather than genuine dialogue, producing viral moments but little understanding ([09:05]).

"This format doesn't lend itself to…nuance and the deep conversation needed to unpack the presuppositions that people like Ali are standing on." – Tim ([04:12])

3. Behind-the-Scenes and Allie Stuckey’s Debate Prep

• Allie’s Public Narrative vs. Reality: Tim refutes Allie's claims of having “set out to make friends” during the debate, revealing her was guarded and did not engage unless approached ([12:43]).
• Charlie Kirk’s Coaching: Tim reads from a text exchange in which Charlie Kirk explicitly instructs Stuckey to use tactics like asking for opponents’ names to throw them off and to constantly demand biblical evidence, illustrating how debate in this world is often about posturing, not connection ([13:54]).
• Instrumental Friendliness: April connects this approach to “soul winning” seminars, where feigned rapport is strategically used to disarm and then deliver hardline truths ([16:33]).

"You cannot have a genuine relationship with someone when you are viewing them as a project, as someone to save their soul..." – April ([16:33])

4. Responding to Allie’s Biblical Claims: Marriage, Polygamy, and Apologetic Strategies

The Exchange on Biblical Marriage

• Allie’s Claim: "The Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman."
• Tim’s Challenge ([21:48]): Tim points out David, Jacob, and other biblical figures who had multiple wives, challenging the “only” aspect.
• Allie pivots, invoking prescriptive vs. descriptive frameworks— a tactic Tim and April dissect as made-up and arbitrarily applied to suit the interpreter’s preferences ([22:59]).
• Tim’s Key Objection: Even when biblical texts prescribe regulations for polygamy, conservative interpreters brush it off as “descriptive.” This selective reading undermines claims of biblical inerrancy and consistency ([24:34]).

"The Bible…prescribes what to do if someone has more than one wife. Right there. But Ali goes to this descriptive vs. prescriptive move." – Tim ([24:34])

The Prescriptive/Descriptive Debate Trap

• Circular Reasoning: April highlights that fundamentalists never have to budge on their position because their ideology leaves no room for nuance ([19:21]).
• Format Limitations: The rapid format means whoever stays on-message “wins” in the eyes of their followers, no matter how logically circular their points become ([31:12]).

5. The Empathy Debate: Toxic Empathy and Trans Identity

• Allie’s Argument ([48:59]): Stuckey claims that affirming trans identities is "toxic empathy"—supporting a destructive lie rather than the truth.
• Biblical Blind Spots: Tim notes the Bible’s inclusion of eunuchs (neither “fully male” nor “fully female,” per ancient categories) and how Stuckey misuses Genesis to support views the texts were never meant to address ([50:31]).
• Data & Reality: April rebuts Allie’s claim with data about the positive impacts of gender-affirming care and the reality of intersex people, challenging the supposed “objectivity” of the conservative biblical worldview ([51:20]).
• Weaponization of “Truth”: Tim exposes the way evangelical apologists declare objective truth while bending facts to fit dogma ([53:10]).

"The data doesn't freaking lie, Ali." – Tim ([53:10])

"They will claim truth. They will claim that they're being objective. They are some of the most biased people you've ever met because they have a dogma that [reality] must bend to." – Tim ([53:10])

6. Slavery, Contextual Reading, and Hypocrisy

The MacArthur Moment

• Tim Confronts Allie ([59:00]): Tim directly asks Allie whether John MacArthur’s defense of slavery was wrong, referencing a notorious sermon where MacArthur calls slavery “not objectionable if you have the right master.” Allie sidesteps, unwilling to condemn the statement without context ([59:00–63:15]).
• Receipts & Accountability: Tim plays the actual MacArthur clip, decrying the “disingenuous” apologies from Stuckey’s supporters who defend or minimize it ([64:45]).
• Moving the Goalposts: Tim holds Allie to her claim that the Bible does not condone slavery, reading Paul’s “slaves obey your masters” as explicit biblical condoning of the practice. Allie tries to wriggle out by emphasizing “context” ([68:58]).
• The Progressive Double Standard: Tim exposes how Stuckey applies contextual, progressive readings of scripture to slavery, but refuses to do the same for passages about same-sex relationships or gender—revealing her arguments are political, not theological ([73:46]).

"Now apply that framework…to this very complicated word that Paul uses that some biblical translations translate to homosexuality." – Tim ([72:30])

7. Broader Issues in Evangelical Debate & The Path Forward

• Echo Chambers & Bad Faith: Tim and April mourn the lack of open-mindedness in fundamentalist circles, describing how their own former ‘apologist’ selves once followed the same script and how curiosity, humility, and self-awareness are discouraged in that universe ([77:37]).

"You're taught that having an open mind is bad... You almost wear the bigot badge as a badge of honor because you don't need to learn anything else. You know everything." – April ([77:44])

• Hypocrisy on Civility: Allie’s closing remarks about loving debate and opposing political violence are critiqued as performative virtue-signaling, inconsistent with her platform’s actual practices ([82:08]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How do you go from like this? 'We were being respectful from the start' when in reality you…are bragging about how Charlie trained you on how to attack them…I just don't find that good faith.” – Tim ([15:54])
• "In that world…you can't have a genuine relationship with someone when you are viewing them as a project." – April ([16:33])
• “It's the mental gymnastics, the cognitive dissonance. But listen, if you're on her side, you think she's nailing this because she's not moving an inch.” – April ([28:18])
• "Everybody cherry picks the Bible. Some people just are self-aware and nuanced enough to admit it…" – April ([57:20])
• “Their context, their cultural moment shapes how they see the Bible and how they interpret it…” – Tim ([47:44])
• “Allie's entire existence…hinges on her keeping her same beliefs. If she ever changes her beliefs, she loses her platform and audience.” – April ([38:01])
• “Anyone who doesn’t think and believe like you do…you have to view them as a project to save as opposed to a human to love.” – April ([79:30])
• On John MacArthur: “Slavery is not objectionable if you have the right master. It's the perfect scenario.” – John MacArthur ([63:15])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Discussion | |-------------|-------------------| | 03:29 | Tim’s history with Allie and the debate’s context | | 07:11 | Discussing the debate’s format and audience “winner” bias | | 12:43 – 16:33 | Allie’s prep, Charlie Kirk’s tactics, and bad faith “friendliness” | | 21:48 – 28:02 | Debate: Does the Bible mandate monogamous marriage? | | 48:59 – 53:10 | Allie’s "toxic empathy" argument and responses on gender | | 59:00 – 63:15 | The John MacArthur slavery controversy and Allie's response | | 66:47 – 73:46 | Pinning down the Bible’s view on slavery & homosexuality | | 77:37 – 79:30 | The dangers of uncritical fundamentalism and echo chambers | | 81:41 – 83:57 | Allie’s closing appeal versus her broader platform reality |

Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode is both critical and earnest, revealing the complex, often frustrating task of publicly debating Christian right-wing punditry. Tim and April balance robust, sometimes biting analysis with a spirit of transparency, humility, and a desire for genuine engagement that is missing in the “debate bro” world. Ultimately, the show affirms The New Evangelicals’ vision: modeling Christian faith that “rejects Christian Nationalism and boldly advocates for neighbors while holding onto a faith rooted in the way of Jesus: with love, justice, and compassion for all.”

“We’re not afraid to engage… I have so many receipts and I followed her work for so long… But [Stuckey] has not shared any of our clips… I wonder… is she a little concerned about talking to me because I have so many receipts?” – Tim ([74:41])

For a deeper dive: Listeners are encouraged to seek out additional New Evangelicals content, including scholarly podcast episodes and April’s book, Star Spangled Jesus.