54. Tim Debated Allie Stuckey on Jubilee and Has the Tea

Summary

---

The Tim & April Show – Episode 54: Tim Debated Allie Stuckey on Jubilee and Has the Tea

Podcast: The Tim & April Show
Host(s): Tim Whitaker, April Lajoy
Network: The New Evangelicals
Episode Release Date: October 15, 2025
Main Focus: Reflections on Tim’s debate with Allie Stuckey on Jubilee regarding the intersection of faith, politics, and culture.

---

Episode Overview

In this special live-streamed episode, Tim Whitaker and April Lajoy dissect Tim's recent appearance on the Jubilee debate series, where he and conservative commentator Allie Beth Stuckey discussed hot-button topics on faith and culture. The conversation is an honest, insider look at what led Tim to participate, behind-the-scenes realities, debate tactics, and the broader implications for engaging across the ideological spectrum. Rooted in The New Evangelicals’ approach of love, justice, and inclusivity, Tim and April break down both the structure and substance of the debate, highlight problematic apologetic strategies, and reflect on the challenges of “debating” Christian nationalism in popular media.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Tim Participated in the Jubilee Debate

• Motivations for Accepting: Tim details his longstanding awareness of Allie Stuckey’s work and his prior critiques of her arguments ([03:29]). He initially hesitated, concerned about the "debate" format that favors hot takes over nuance and had seen how such setups could be used to score “points” instead of foster real conversation.
• Consultation: Tim consulted trusted friends before agreeing to ensure he wasn’t just fueling an unconstructive spectacle. He ultimately decided that visibility for progressive Christians willing to publicly engage was beneficial ([06:45]).

"Honestly, if I could help people know that there are Christians out there who are faithful to Jesus and who want to find a better path forward... that's a win for me." – Tim Whitaker ([06:57])

2. The Empty Promise of Debate Formats

• No Real Minds Changed: Both hosts note how these “debates” rarely shift beliefs—instead, each side claims victory and further entrenches their followers ([07:11]).
• Format Constraints: The debate allows only 2 minutes per speaker, leading to frequent interruptions and little space for nuance ([08:09]).
• Superficial Engagement: Short timeframes force debaters into soundbites rather than genuine dialogue, producing viral moments but little understanding ([09:05]).

"This format doesn't lend itself to…nuance and the deep conversation needed to unpack the presuppositions that people like Ali are standing on." – Tim ([04:12])

3. Behind-the-Scenes and Allie Stuckey’s Debate Prep

• Allie’s Public Narrative vs. Reality: Tim refutes Allie's claims of having “set out to make friends” during the debate, revealing her was guarded and did not engage unless approached ([12:43]).
• Charlie Kirk’s Coaching: Tim reads from a text exchange in which Charlie Kirk explicitly instructs Stuckey to use tactics like asking for opponents’ names to throw them off and to constantly demand biblical evidence, illustrating how debate in this world is often about posturing, not connection ([13:54]).
• Instrumental Friendliness: April connects this approach to “soul winning” seminars, where feigned rapport is strategically used to disarm and then deliver hardline truths ([16:33]).

"You cannot have a genuine relationship with someone when you are viewing them as a project, as someone to save their soul..." – April ([16:33])

4. Responding to Allie’s Biblical Claims: Marriage, Polygamy, and Apologetic Strategies

The Exchange on Biblical Marriage

• Allie’s Claim: "The Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman."
• Tim’s Challenge ([21:48]): Tim points out David, Jacob, and other biblical figures who had multiple wives, challenging the “only” aspect.
• Allie pivots, invoking prescriptive vs. descriptive frameworks— a tactic Tim and April dissect as made-up and arbitrarily applied to suit the interpreter’s preferences ([22:59]).
• Tim’s Key Objection: Even when biblical texts prescribe regulations for polygamy, conservative interpreters brush it off as “descriptive.” This selective reading undermines claims of biblical inerrancy and consistency ([24:34]).

"The Bible…prescribes what to do if someone has more than one wife. Right there. But Ali goes to this descriptive vs. prescriptive move." – Tim ([24:34])

The Prescriptive/Descriptive Debate Trap

• Circular Reasoning: April highlights that fundamentalists never have to budge on their position because their ideology leaves no room for nuance ([19:21]).
• Format Limitations: The rapid format means whoever stays on-message “wins” in the eyes of their followers, no matter how logically circular their points become ([31:12]).

5. The Empathy Debate: Toxic Empathy and Trans Identity

• Allie’s Argument ([48:59]): Stuckey claims that affirming trans identities is "toxic empathy"—supporting a destructive lie rather than the truth.
• Biblical Blind Spots: Tim notes the Bible’s inclusion of eunuchs (neither “fully male” nor “fully female,” per ancient categories) and how Stuckey misuses Genesis to support views the texts were never meant to address ([50:31]).
• Data & Reality: April rebuts Allie’s claim with data about the positive impacts of gender-affirming care and the reality of intersex people, challenging the supposed “objectivity” of the conservative biblical worldview ([51:20]).
• Weaponization of “Truth”: Tim exposes the way evangelical apologists declare objective truth while bending facts to fit dogma ([53:10]).

"The data doesn't freaking lie, Ali." – Tim ([53:10])

"They will claim truth. They will claim that they're being objective. They are some of the most biased people you've ever met because they have a dogma that [reality] must bend to." – Tim ([53:10])

6. Slavery, Contextual Reading, and Hypocrisy

The MacArthur Moment

• Tim Confronts Allie ([59:00]): Tim directly asks Allie whether John MacArthur’s defense of slavery was wrong, referencing a notorious sermon where MacArthur calls slavery “not objectionable if you have the right master.” Allie sidesteps, unwilling to condemn the statement without context ([59:00–63:15]).
• Receipts & Accountability: Tim plays the actual MacArthur clip, decrying the “disingenuous” apologies from Stuckey’s supporters who defend or minimize it ([64:45]).
• Moving the Goalposts: Tim holds Allie to her claim that the Bible does not condone slavery, reading Paul’s “slaves obey your masters” as explicit biblical condoning of the practice. Allie tries to wriggle out by emphasizing “context” ([68:58]).
• The Progressive Double Standard: Tim exposes how Stuckey applies contextual, progressive readings of scripture to slavery, but refuses to do the same for passages about same-sex relationships or gender—revealing her arguments are political, not theological ([73:46]).

"Now apply that framework…to this very complicated word that Paul uses that some biblical translations translate to homosexuality." – Tim ([72:30])

7. Broader Issues in Evangelical Debate & The Path Forward

• Echo Chambers & Bad Faith: Tim and April mourn the lack of open-mindedness in fundamentalist circles, describing how their own former ‘apologist’ selves once followed the same script and how curiosity, humility, and self-awareness are discouraged in that universe ([77:37]).

"You're taught that having an open mind is bad... You almost wear the bigot badge as a badge of honor because you don't need to learn anything else. You know everything." – April ([77:44])

• Hypocrisy on Civility: Allie’s closing remarks about loving debate and opposing political violence are critiqued as performative virtue-signaling, inconsistent with her platform’s actual practices ([82:08]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How do you go from like this? 'We were being respectful from the start' when in reality you…are bragging about how Charlie trained you on how to attack them…I just don't find that good faith.” – Tim ([15:54])
• "In that world…you can't have a genuine relationship with someone when you are viewing them as a project." – April ([16:33])
• “It's the mental gymnastics, the cognitive dissonance. But listen, if you're on her side, you think she's nailing this because she's not moving an inch.” – April ([28:18])
• "Everybody cherry picks the Bible. Some people just are self-aware and nuanced enough to admit it…" – April ([57:20])
• “Their context, their cultural moment shapes how they see the Bible and how they interpret it…” – Tim ([47:44])
• “Allie's entire existence…hinges on her keeping her same beliefs. If she ever changes her beliefs, she loses her platform and audience.” – April ([38:01])
• “Anyone who doesn’t think and believe like you do…you have to view them as a project to save as opposed to a human to love.” – April ([79:30])
• On John MacArthur: “Slavery is not objectionable if you have the right master. It's the perfect scenario.” – John MacArthur ([63:15])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Discussion | |-------------|-------------------| | 03:29 | Tim’s history with Allie and the debate’s context | | 07:11 | Discussing the debate’s format and audience “winner” bias | | 12:43 – 16:33 | Allie’s prep, Charlie Kirk’s tactics, and bad faith “friendliness” | | 21:48 – 28:02 | Debate: Does the Bible mandate monogamous marriage? | | 48:59 – 53:10 | Allie’s "toxic empathy" argument and responses on gender | | 59:00 – 63:15 | The John MacArthur slavery controversy and Allie's response | | 66:47 – 73:46 | Pinning down the Bible’s view on slavery & homosexuality | | 77:37 – 79:30 | The dangers of uncritical fundamentalism and echo chambers | | 81:41 – 83:57 | Allie’s closing appeal versus her broader platform reality |

---

Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode is both critical and earnest, revealing the complex, often frustrating task of publicly debating Christian right-wing punditry. Tim and April balance robust, sometimes biting analysis with a spirit of transparency, humility, and a desire for genuine engagement that is missing in the “debate bro” world. Ultimately, the show affirms The New Evangelicals’ vision: modeling Christian faith that “rejects Christian Nationalism and boldly advocates for neighbors while holding onto a faith rooted in the way of Jesus: with love, justice, and compassion for all.”

---

“We’re not afraid to engage… I have so many receipts and I followed her work for so long… But [Stuckey] has not shared any of our clips… I wonder… is she a little concerned about talking to me because I have so many receipts?” – Tim ([74:41])

---

For a deeper dive: Listeners are encouraged to seek out additional New Evangelicals content, including scholarly podcast episodes and April’s book, Star Spangled Jesus.

---

Transcript

[Tim Whitaker]

Some people think nature is like this, but actually it's like this. That's why Columbia engineers everything we make for anything nature can throw at you. Columbia engineered for whatever Some days call.

[April Lajoy]

For working up a sweat, working on your passion and endless action. Ditch the glitch with Liquid IV's new energy multiplier. Sugar free refreshing flavors like strawberry, kiwi and BlackBerry.

[Ali Stuckey]

BlackBerry Lemonade.

[April Lajoy]

Scientifically formulated to support physical energy, hydration, focus, mood and social stamina.

[Ali Stuckey]

Liquid IV's new energy multiplier, Sugar free hydrating energy.

[April Lajoy]

Tap the banner to learn more.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hola, mi gente.

[April Lajoy]

Turn up the Latin flavor with Cafe Bustelo coffee. Choose light, medium, dark and dulce de leche roasts. Whatever your vibe, we got you covered.

[Ali Stuckey]

Cafe Bustelo esta aqui.

[Tim Whitaker]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[April Lajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, boy.

[April Lajoy]

Hi, everybody.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's happening. Oh, we already got a super chat. Holy. Okay. Wow. This is going to be wild. Thanks for the super chat. Get it. Yeah. Wow. What up, friends? Hello. Look, this is a very special live stream edition of the Tim and April Show. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Lajoy]

I'm April Lajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

We usually go live every Thursday at noon Eastern right here on YouTube and also with our friends over at Lincoln Square Media on Substack. I'm Tim Whitaker, the co founder or the founder of the New Evangelicals. That is the organization that, that, that produces this show. Look, April, we're just gonna hop right into it, okay? Today I feel like it's gonna be an insider conversation like the people who watch the show. I'm not gonna caveat everything, you know, who we are at this point. But it's true. It's true. I was. I did go on Jubilee. I did the thing you did, the thing that can get you in hot water and in the progressive Christian space and progressivism in general. And I understand why. So I want to talk about that. And I have another secret. I have not watched it yet. I have not watched my clips. I have not. I haven't watched it. I wanted to do it live.

[April Lajoy]

The clips that Jubilee posted separately.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Lajoy]

You know, I went to. Actually, I started to watch it on YouTube, but they collabed with Ali Beth Stuckey's YouTube. And honestly, I was like, I can't, I can't give her a view. Just couldn't do it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, how should we start with this look?

[April Lajoy]

Well, let's just start with, let's go to the beginning. Which is why you decided to do this.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So here's the backstory. I have known Ally Stuckey for a long time. In fact, if you go to the New Evangelicals YouTube page, you'll see quite a few videos of me critiquing Ali Stuckey. I tracked her for years.

[April Lajoy]

You mean like parasocially?

[Tim Whitaker]

Parasocially. Thank you. We've gone back and forth online. She blocked the New Evangelicals Instagram account from seeing her stories. It's that kind of thing. So I knew who she was. And I will tell you, they did not tell me who it was ahead of time. I kind of figured it out. Okay. Like they were just the way, the way that you do, like this pre interview process and some of the questions they asked, I'm like, okay, who is this person going to be? So anyway, I say all that because there is a history here. Ali Stuckey I find to be not a truth teller very often, even though she claims to stand on truth. We'll get into that throughout the debate. And look, I, I, I struggled with this because, and this is no shade to jubilee, you know, it's not, I don't think that, that anyone there is a bad person or a bad faith actor. I, in fact, I followed their Insta, their YouTube channel for a long time. I've seen a lot of their videos before this whole surrounded bait format came out. But I also have seen how these debates aren't real debates and they tend to be hot takes that kind of go viral in a very short, you know, clip. And then people use it as proof that the other side is stupid. Right? Oh, this person got owned. This person owned this person. And then I saw the debate, quote, unquote, with Mehdi Hassan, where he essentially was debating a bunch of fascists and was not under the impression that he'd be debating fascists, right? And the things that they said to him were like, really dehumanizing and like, just brutal. And I was like, ooh, this makes me have the egg. So when they approached me, I was very transparent with them. I said, look, if you're gonna have like, if you're gonna put me in a room with like, you know, a Nick Fuentes type, I'm not even gonna engage. I'M walking out of that room. But they said, no, it's not that, but we can't tell you who it is. Okay, no problem. And then I, I do have an inner circle of people that I consult with on things like this, because I can see you go. I can see it go going both way to participate in a system and in a structure that I think doesn't really lend itself to the, the nuance and the, and the, and the deep conversation needed to unpack the presuppositions that people like Ali are standing on on the other side. Someone's got to have the conversation and someone should participate in some of this stuff because they're going to do it no matter what. So I talked to a few friends of mine who I really trust, I really value their opinion, and I essentially let them know, like, look, based on what you guys tell me is really going to be how I dictate my response to the team at Jubilee and what I decide to do. And after kind of going back and forth, they said, you should do it. And they gave me all the reasons why. I said, you know what? I trust your opinion. I want to do it. I'm going to do it. And also on a personal level, I wanted to see how my, how I would do. You know, this is a very different format for me. I like long form. I like getting in the weeds. And Jubilee is a huge platform. And Ali Stuckey, while I don't think her takes are great, she knows how to have these conversations in short form. She knows how to kind of like, you know, engaged in like, okay, if you got me here, I'm going to move here. If you got me here, I'm going to move here. So I wanted to see how I would stack up and just participate in the process. So that's why I did it. Honestly, if I could help people know that there are Christians out there who are faithful to Jesus and who want to find a better path forward. And that leads people back to our show and to the new evangelicals, and they're part of TNE Connect. That's a win for me. So that's why I did it.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, it's interesting, in the aftermath, I've seen both sides just in their responses, seems like, you know, liberal Christians are like, clearly the liberals won. And then conservative Christians are like, oh, Ali crushed it. So it's, it is interesting that it's not really. No one's mind is changed that I've seen from the, from these debates, you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Know, and I, I do think Even in, like, more formal debates. Like, I watched a lot. I watched a lot of, like, academ debates with, like, you know, Bart Ehrman versus, you know, James White. I don't think the goal is to convince your opponent. I think you're really playing it for the audience. But there's a whole structure to that. Right. You have 20 minutes to outline your opening statement, then 20 minutes for rebuttal. This is not that. This is not that. Someone asked the question via super Chat. And by the way, friends, we do our best to read all super chats, so if you. If you send one in, we'll absolutely prioritize.

[April Lajoy]

You just go through the we. I think we have three we need to get through too, anyway.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, well, I'll get through them now then. A word worker's wisdom says one of Tim's more questionable choices. Fair enough. Deanna says, let's go. So excited to watch this with everyone. And then Kim says, tim, was it hard not to talk over her? It was hard because she. In this format, you're so limited in your time. Right. You only. I mean, look, the format is this. You get up there and then after two minutes, people can start raising a red flag to vote you out. So there's. There's not a lot of time. And the way Allie moves, she's moving so fast through so many different points. You have to stop her, else you're going to end up somewhere completely different than where you ended up. And to be fair, I could do that, too. I'm not saying that she's the only one this format doesn't lend itself to. Let's go through your words point by point, because we have a whole hour. It's okay. I have at most maybe five minutes to get out this nuanced take and to ask questions. So I got to kind of interrupt whenever I can. Yeah.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Lajoy]

Well, do we want to get into some of, like.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

The behind the scenes to set the stage, and then we're going to react to a few.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

Clips. We have a couple more super chats, too, if we want to go through those.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm going to be here all day doing super chats. Yeah, we'll do two more, then we'll. We'll kind of circle back around later on. Dominique says, here is your hazard pay, Tim, for having to deal with Ali face to face. Thanks for all you guys do. Tim and April, thank you so much. And player Drew watched this with my wife yesterday, and we really enjoyed how seemingly altered the format, how they seemingly alter the format to allow for deeper conversation, especially the ending one with Gabriel. So, friends, Jubilee is very picky about how much you can respond to on someone else's YouTube account. And so if you want to watch the full debate, make sure you go to that channel to watch it. I'm only going to pull a few clips here. I'm going to pull my two times I got up. We'll watch those in their entirety. And then. And then I'm going to pull up another claim she had about toxic empathy, and we'll give our thoughts on that. So, just FYI, we're not going through the whole thing. We'll be here for six hours trying to do that. And Jubilee would not like that. So that's part of their. Their ask. I want to respect that. They had me out. They worked with me. They were very flexible. I really appreciated them how they did that. I will say one more thing, April. Just kind of leading up to this, when Charlie was murdered, I really rethought going, I did. I was like, oh, no. Like, this just puts such a. This makes it so heavy. All of a sudden.

[April Lajoy]

When was this in that timeline?

[Tim Whitaker]

They asked me to participate. I think, like, the week before.

[Ali Stuckey]

Okay.

[April Lajoy]

And then was this right after.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I went out there. This was recorded. Let me take a look real quick. I had, like, the timestamps here. This was recorded October.

[April Lajoy]

This was the day before the memorial.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, yes, yes. In fact, they moved it. We were supposed to record that Sunday. We recorded that Saturday. So I, I was on the fence. I told the producers this. I said, look, I have a family, and I know you guys don't advertise when and where you record, but I don't. Is there going to be extra security? And they were really good about that. I mean, there was extra security there. Ali had, you know, a security person with her, which I totally understand. So I, I, as we talk about this, I do want to be charitable. Like, I, I, I, I do want to interpret things in, in good faith. But also, there are some things that I want to kind of call out when it comes to Ali. And I think we'll start with this. Here's how Ali talked about her Jubilee experience. Now I want to kind of expose in my mind how or why I have such a hard time taking people like Ali as genuine, because they kind of expose themselves and, like, their motivation behind this. So the day before this or the day of this video came out, Allie did a story, a series of stories on her Instagram account.

[April Lajoy]

This was right after the trailer dropped yes, thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And by the way, FYI, friends, I'll be talking a lot through this episode because I was the person at Jubilee, but just me and April talked about this ahead of time, just so you're aware, because I don't want comments. Tim, you hogged the conversation. I know. I'm hogging this one a little bit. Okay, so I'm going to read what Ali said so that our podcast audience knows. So the first slide, she said this. She goes, I was so nervous about that debate. It was the day before Charlie's memorial. I was sad, running on little sleep, but the Lord sustained me. Okay, pause. I. I hear her on that. Like, I. I felt for her, too. I'm like, oh, my gosh, if it is Ally, she's trying to be really nervous, right? Cause again, this is all in the background. Or Charlie's death is all in the background of this now. But then she says, and almost all of them were really kind. Interesting.

[April Lajoy]

Who was the. Who was the person that made that almost.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know. I don't know. I'll explain more. And then she goes on to say, I also set out to make friends right away. We disarmed each other by being respectful from the start, and I truly felt the holy spirit with me. Okay, look, I don't want to start drama with Ali, but to be clear, I would not say Ali set out to make friends right away. Okay, in between, like, the debate prompts, you take a break. Ali did not talk to anyone unless she was spoken to. Now, maybe she was told. I don't know what the producers told her. So I want to be charitable, because maybe they said, don't engage because it makes for better content. I don't know. But Ali was not out here shaking everyone's hands, like, oh, so nice to meet all of you. We had to approach her. So I. And I did ask a few other people who were on the episode, did you feel like Ally set out to make friends right away? And they were like, no, not really. I mean, she wasn't mean, but she wasn't like, hey, thanks for coming out. This means the world. It's so good that we're all here and that, you know, so, like, even how she frames this initial, you know, experience, I'm like, well, Ally, I was in the room. I went up to you. I got your attention. People approached you. But let's not pretend that we were. That you were out here trying to make friends right away. Unless her version of making friends means that she shakes their hand. And asks for their name before they get started. Which is a problem for me. And here's why. Because Alva keeps talking through this Instagram story series. The next thing she shows are these texts between her and Charlie Kirk prepping her for this debate. And this was when I was like, okay, Ally, so was this genuine or not? Because one of the things that, that, that Charlie says is that you should absolutely ask for their names because it throws them off. Where is it? Right here. I'm going to read what Charlie said based on Ali's screenshot. For your. This is Charlie talking to Ali. He says, for your jubilee thing. It's very important every time they make a claim to say, is that biblical? By what standard do you believe that since they are Christians, you will have them up against the wall? They will try and get you on a major difference or of something prescriptive versus descriptive. Most of the ugly stuff of the Old Testament is describing, not prescribing to us. Very important differences. Best example would be Solomon. No one could ever think the lesson we should take is we should take a bunch of wives like Solomon did. But the Bible was unafraid to show how dark that life is. Anyway, been thinking and praying a lot for this moment for you. Best two questions is to always ask. And then he goes on in the text prompt to say here are two questions. He re. He reemphasizes the questions. What do you mean by that exactly? And what biblical evidence do you have to support the claim? And then he says those are. These two questions can buy you time at any point. You can use them as a way to play offense. Can you send me the four prompts? Which she does. And then he says, these are great. The empathy one. You know better than anyone if you rewatch my jubilee, the best thing I did was define terms immediately. So, so she, he like was coaching her. And then, and then this is when he says, make sure you're debating or so you are debating on your own terms. The worst thing I did was I prepare for the seminars giving her advice here. I recommend taking breaks, go to the restroom, take a breather. Always ask their name too. Throws them off. I love, love this. Anytime you want to do a call, I can download you exactly how they will attack you on this. But you know all of this stuff anyway. Just here to help. So again, like I just. How do you go from like this? We were being respectful from the start when in reality you. You are bragging about how Charlie trained you on how to attack them and how to you know, ask for their name so it throws them off. I just don't find that good faith. I'm sorry, it does not feel good faith to me.

[April Lajoy]

Well, it's because in that world you are basically taught that anyone who you see as not a Christian. And to be clear, we'll get to a later point later that she acclaim, she makes. They don't believe progressive people can be Christian, are not true Christians. So you're immediately. You cannot have a genuine relationship with someone. You cannot genuinely try to make friends with someone when you are viewing them as a project, as someone to save their soul, who is like being deceived by Satan. It's also like, I don't know if you were ever went to soul winning seminars. Like my dad used to put them on all the time that literally teach you how to convert people. And like, that is one thing they say, like, be nice, be friendly, like, use your friendliness and come across as kind to disarm people so that then you can like stick them with the truth, you know, like, kill them with kindness. Was something which, which it's weird that she would admit that. I mean, it's not weird. It's not weird because like, I get it. Cause I come from that world. And when you're in that world, it's like you do anything you can to get the truth out there, even if you're being fake. Nice.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Lajoy]

But it's also from the outside, so obvious that she's not being genuine.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's just not. That's what kills me, is like, look, I have invited Ali on the show before. I've offered to go on Ali's show before. It never worked out. I've invited her before and I. I talked to her. In fact, I have a screenshot. Oh, this is the crew, Some of the crew that was there. Kobe Martin on the right, Danny and then Stephen in the middle. We had a. On the left. We had a great time. But I have a shot. Where is it? Did I pull it up? I don't know if I did. Of me. I went out of my way to talk to Ali. I'm not sure if I have it pulled up here. Let me see if I can find it. I thought I prepped it, but whatever. I, you know, and we had a. We had a good offline conversation, if you can call it that. You know, like, we talked and we were super cordial, but I just don't know if it was real. Like, I don't know what she told me about the need to have these conversations. And it was so good to meet you. And, you know, finally. I don't know if it's real here. This is a big picture. Sorry. Yep, those are my feet there. There we go, that's me. Now we're talking. And again, I went over to her for this, and I would never say that to people publicly, but because she's making the point that she went out of her way to make friends with people, I'm letting you know that she did not go to me here. I went to her and we had a good 5, 10 minute conversation. So, yeah, I want to start off on that note. Like, it just seems like an act. And I will say I felt like at the end of the debate, I told the people I was hanging with. Ali was definitely media trained. Like, she knew the audience that would be seeing this. She knew to kind of always smile and be kind, but my gosh, in my opinion, she went around in circles, so.

[April Lajoy]

Oh, and I just. I think it's important. I want to make. I might expound on this later, but there was a time in my life, like 15 years ago when I was hardcore Republican, Christian, that I would have felt so confident going in there just like Ali Beth Stuckey and debating a bunch of liberal Christians. Because when your ideology is black and white and has no room for nuance, it's actually quite easy to debate and win in your mind and in the mind of conservatives. Because all she has to do is go in there and stand her ground, Right? She just goes in there, says her talking points and doesn't concede on any point. And to them that's a win. It doesn't actually matter if she's talking in circles or if she actually gets points across, because as long as she didn't give an inch on a very fundamentalist understanding of Scripture, she wins as far as her people are concerned. Whereas anyone who doesn't come from that world can see that she's talking in illogical circles, you know, and making circular shots.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, it was so circular.

[April Lajoy]

And doing mental gymnastics. And, you know, and it's clear that she actually is not making any good points. She's just not giving in to it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. I want to also address one thing that we'll watch the first few clips here. Look, depending on who you are watching the video, you're going to say, either I interrupted her a lot or she interrupted me a lot. It's based on our bias, which is fine, but I was not offended that she interrupted a lot, because you only have so much time to get your Points out. So just kind of the nature of the. Of the beast. Okay, so why don't we get into the first one I get. I have not watched this. Friends, by the way, if you're watching live, thank you so much. Please make sure to give this video a like, it helps get this stream out to more and more people. I have not watched these clips. I have not watched the full debate. Let's go through it. We can watch my first claim or my first response. And Ali's claim here is that the Bible says that marriage is only between one man and one woman. So let's see how I did April. And we'll pause appropriately. Last thing I'll say, that is not in this edit. Every person during this first prompt went up to Ali and gave condolences about Charlie. Everyone did. And Ali really accepted that. So that's not in this episode that they cut it out for whatever reason. But I did that. The first person did that. The third person did that. Just so you know. Okay, here we go.

[April Lajoy]

Tim, I know who you are.

[Tim Whitaker]

I know who you are.

[April Lajoy]

I see a familiar face. It's nice to meet you in person.

[Tim Whitaker]

Pleasure. I want to hone in on this claim that the Bible almost supports the idea of one man, one woman in marriage. The Bible doesn't, though. Unless you think, I mean, for example, David, he had eight wives. That's what the Bible says.

[Ali Stuckey]

So there's a difference between prescription and description.

[Tim Whitaker]

I understand that, but the Bible still says that someone had multiple wives.

[Ali Stuckey]

That's a description of something that's not God saying that is good and holy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, I mean, David's a man for God's own heart, right?

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes. And David also committed murder, and he also committed adultery, which we know he repented of those things and was sorrowful over those things.

[Tim Whitaker]

But that's very different than.

[Ali Stuckey]

That does not mean. First of all, we don't know that David constantly decimated the marriage with all of Saul's wives.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait, what? We don't know that David slept with his eight wives. Okay. We also don't know that. We also don't know that David ever used the bathroom. Did he ever poop? We don't really know. The Bible doesn't say that. Like, that's what. Like, are you kidding? You can see my face here.

[April Lajoy]

I'm like, okay, I'm so annoyed every time conservatives bring up prescriptive versus descriptive. Because men made that up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Lajoy]

They literally just made that up. There's nothing in the Bible that. That says these things are descriptive. So we don't need to listen to that. And these things are prescriptive. And that means we listen to that. They literally just picked and choose which things they didn't want to follow anymore and which things that they did. And men made that up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Look, and again, this is the problem with this format. I wanted to get to that presupposition of like, look, we all do this, but there's no, it's arbitrary. Right. And also, by the way, the Bible, like, this is what, what, what, what are really, really annoys me because I, I want, I, I did. I should have said this in the moment, but I didn't. The Bible has prescriptive texts about having multiple women. Exodus 21. Okay, verse through. I'll read verses 7 through through 10. When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do. We'll come back to slavery later on at the end of the segment. But if she displeases her master who has designated her for himself, he shall let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to a foreign people since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall treat her according to the ordinance for daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not withhold her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. That is the Bible prescribing what to do if someone has more than one wife. Right there. But Ali goes to this descriptive verse, prescriptive. But then Allie would say, well, that doesn't apply to us. But the Bible is still prescribing it. That's what drives me the most bonkers. I was just trying to get Ally.

[April Lajoy]

To see what was the actual wording on her claim.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is why I was so frustrated. I'm going to read it. It's from Jubilee. It's right here. The Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman. No, it doesn't.

[April Lajoy]

If she took out the word only right, I think she would have a better leg to stand on. Because you can make the argument that God prefers marriage between one man and one woman. And I think you could find scripture to support that. But to say it only, that only no polygamy is a huge. There are more examples of polygamy in the Bible than there are monogamous marriage.

[Tim Whitaker]

If Ali wanted to really pull me apart on this, the claim should be the Bible only supports marriage between a man and a woman. Right? Because then she could say there's absolutely no example of quote unquote gay marriage in the Bible. And she's right about that, by the way. Like, she's absolutely correct about that. Right. That's a much more difficult point to talk about, especially in two minutes. But when you say is only between one man and one woman, it's like, no, no, it doesn't. It doesn't. Okay, we'll keep going. But I've already just kind of like, you got to be kidding me. But here we go.

[Ali Stuckey]

It's true. We don't know that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wives plural. So again, you're proving the point.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

That I'm making. Is that the Bible.

[Ali Stuckey]

But the Bible had a lot of wives too, right? No problems, actually, is what we see.

[April Lajoy]

Over and over again.

[Tim Whitaker]

The Bible is my point.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes, there are.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what I see. This is what's so mind blowing to me. The Bible says marriage is only between one man and one woman. Well, no, I know the Bible says that, but that's descriptive. Okay, Descriptive versus prescriptive is besides the point. Your claims, what the Bible says. And the Bible does say that people have had multiple wives. Whether that's good or bad is, is. Is. Is irregardless of the claim you made. Okay, sorry, I gotta stop. No, what's the original claim that you made?

[Ali Stuckey]

That the Bible says that marriage is only between one man and one woman.

[Tim Whitaker]

But the Bible says that Lamech took two wives, that Jacob married his first cousins. Right. And married. They were sisters as well. And that's where the whole line of Israel comes through. Right.

[Ali Stuckey]

Existed.

[Tim Whitaker]

The Bible doesn't condemn it. Well, the Bible doesn't condemn Jacob's marriages.

[Ali Stuckey]

So when we read the Bible, this is where I'm coming from. But I take your point that maybe I should add a descriptor in there. Yeah, that the Bible says. What I am claiming is that the Bible says that holy marriage, that good marriage, that right marriage, the marriage that God condones and calls holy, is only between one man and one woman. And when I read the Bible, I'm not just saying, what can I get away with? What did all these bad sinners do? And can I do that too? And God won't condemn me. I'm also looking at what God calls good. And when I look at the definition of marriage, like I just talked about with the, with Gilbert, it's rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout scripture. It's repeated by Jesus in Matthew 19. It is representative of Christ in the church in Ephesians 5. And it is reflective of the gospel as we see in Revelation 20. And so it is more than just saying, well, Yeah, A lot of people had a lot of wives.

[April Lajoy]

A lot of people did a lot.

[Ali Stuckey]

Of bad things in the Bible. That doesn't mean that God.

[Tim Whitaker]

You keep saying bad things. The Bible does not explicitly condemn the marriages of multiple different people, though.

[Ali Stuckey]

Only one kind of marriage, good and holy. And the example for us to. In Genesis 1, in the first and last chapter of the Bible.

[Tim Whitaker]

So we got to pause here. Do you see how she's moving around? Notice how we're so far from her first claim, her original claim.

[Melinda Hale]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right now we're talking about what is good in holy marriage. Right. What is acceptable kinds of marriages. Not if the Bible says it or not. And she even says there are many bad things in the Bible. Okay, so the same book that you call inerrant and infallible and is like the source for all morality, you admit has bad things in it.

[April Lajoy]

It's the mental gymnastics, the cognitive dissonance. But listen, if you're on her side, you think she's nailing this because she's not moving an inch. And the talking in circles is enough to get people to. It just reaffirms what they are already convinced themselves to believe.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. And notice how we're jumping around. We're going to Ephesians, we're going to Revelation, we're going to Genesis 1. Each of those passages are in manuscripts that are written in a different time, in a different place to a different people group for a different reason. Right. But the way Ali sees the Bible is one solid book coming out of one context with one meaning. So, again, I don't have the time in this format to unpack every presupposition that she's building this on.

[April Lajoy]

But. And the way she's moving, too, is forcing you to not be able to stick your landing because you're then now having to address each new thing she's saying, and she's just taking you down this rabbit trail.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly, exactly, exactly. This one. Right. Also prescribes eating vegetables only.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

So do you believe we shall be vegetarians, by the way? Now? No, I don't believe so in the moment, I'm thinking, okay, I have to pivot here because I have to try, like, a different line of attack. So I'm trying to get now to the prescriptive versus descriptive line that she's using and trying to show that even how she reads Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 still has moments where she would say, well, this isn't prescriptive. So she's only picking out one claim. Which, by the way, in Genesis 1, there's no talk about marriage. The command is to be fruitful and multiply. No marriage is mentioned in Genesis 1. No taking of one wife is mentioned in Genesis 1. It is, it is. Have sex, have babies. That's the command. But again, what really helps me feel.

[April Lajoy]

When they bring up Matthew 19 as Jesus example of endorsing one man, one woman marriage is that if you take that whole passage in context, what Jesus is actually doing is condemning divorce.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Lajoy]

He's not endorsing a specific marriage and he's definitely not condemning gay marriage, which is what they use to condemn queer people. It's just, it's so frustrating.

[Tim Whitaker]

But again, again, just to be clear.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, you're good. I'm cutting you off. I talked a lot.

[April Lajoy]

I was just gonna say, like, what she's doing here is another example of she's not budging and because she's not budging and even though her point, like, you're actually poking a lot of holes in what she's saying, but because she keeps moving and like, is dodging those holes and not moving on her position at all, all the conservative Christians are like, oh, she roasted you. She's winning. It's just because it, it, you don't have to really think critically when you are a conservative, fundamentalist, black and white ideological thinker.

[Tim Whitaker]

I agree.

[April Lajoy]

Because you don't have to to think about the holes. You, you are taught how to plug the holes. You are taught to ignore the holes.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right, ignore them. These holes don't exist.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[Tim Whitaker]

And Doug Limu and I always tell you to customize your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music Limu Save yourself money today.

[April Lajoy]

Increase your wealth. Customize and save.

[Tim Whitaker]

We save. That may have been too much much feeling. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Savings very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts this episode is brought to you by Lifelock. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and Lifelock has tips to protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication, report phishing and update the software on your devices. And for comprehensive identity protection, let Lifelock alert you to suspicious uses of your personal information. Lifelock also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, safe and protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Podcasts Terms apply if you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing, it's your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Hello, this is Terry from Wasilla, Alaska.

[April Lajoy]

I started supporting T and E and Project Amplify as it gives me hope.

[Tim Whitaker]

I grew up attending a small evangelical church in Saskatchewan, a church that my relatives had founded in 1914. This was the 70s and aside from the kooky end times teaching about the Soviet Union, it was still a church of love. I married and moved to the US in the late 80s and became exposed to a very different church. I floundered and finally left for the Episcopalians in 2007.

[April Lajoy]

While I love the Episcopal Church, I.

[Tim Whitaker]

Grieve for the church in my youth. Finding tiny I can once again find fellowship with the church of my tradition and hope for the future. Thank you T and E. By the way, friends, if you want deeper dives in all these topics, I cover them with amazing leading scholars on the New Evangelicals podcast. You can find it on this YouTube, on YouTube or on podcasts. I had a great episode with Dr. Jennifer Byrd about Biblical marriage. The episode's called why you don't want a biblical marriage with an actual scholar, not a pundit, not someone like me who has no education. It's an actual scholar who wrote a book about this. On a scholarly level. It's a great read. I just want to use Ali's logic here. Because again, here's the claim, right? Genesis 1 gives us the template. Genesis 1 says that in the image of God he created them, male and female. Therefore transgender people are sinful. That's what she would say. Okay, so verse 27 says, so God created mankind in his own image. In the image of God, he created them, male and female. He created them. Verse 28, God blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and increase in number. Fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground. Is their marriage mentioned in verse 28? Does it say get married to one person for life, have a lot of babies? No, it just says be fruitful and multiply. There is, you read in, you assume. Well, of course that's happened in marriage. But that's not in this this text. My only point and we're going to move back back to this rest of my segment here with Ali, is that by her own logic, she is reading her own bias into Genesis 1. If we just took. But then she would say, well, but it gets reaffirmed in Matthew in a revelation. That's the move, right? Instead, instead of addressing the issue with her claim, she'll move the goalpost.

[April Lajoy]

So anyway, well, and also it totally ignores which is a different topic, but it ignores that if you believe in a literal Adam and Eve creation story, where did everyone, all the other children come from?

[Tim Whitaker]

Hmm. Do I address that coming up? Let's find out.

[Ali Stuckey]

Oh.

[April Lajoy]

Oh, yeah. I thought about that.

[Tim Whitaker]

I thought about that. You're in my head, April. I love it. Creation order is, by your own logic, it's in the creation order of Genesis 1 that we should only Genesis 1.

[Ali Stuckey]

Into different stories, every piece of scripture in all of context.

[Tim Whitaker]

I totally agree with you.

[Ali Stuckey]

And I think that there are some things that we would probably agree that existed and were the case pre fall, that were the case post fall. So, for example, walking around, walking around naked. Walking around naked. That's not something that we typically see today. Maybe that can be another claim that I make that y' all would disagree with. But so there is a reason for things to be prescribed pre and post fall. But what we see, because I didn't just say it's rooted in creation. I also said it is reiterated throughout Scripture. I also said it's repeated by Jesus. I also said it's representative of Christ in the church. So it's not just about Genesis, but.

[Tim Whitaker]

Even the idea of Christ. The church is multiple people with one person.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's multiple people, but it's a plural.

[Ali Stuckey]

Church is not the Brides of Christ. Church is the one Bride of Christ. The collective Bride of Christ.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, the collective. Many people. Right. It's just really interesting. Like, just. Again, I. Anyway, I'll keep going. It's just. It's so frustrating to watch this back because it's like I'm giving you legitimate objections. Objections to your claim.

[Ali Stuckey]

And.

[Tim Whitaker]

And you just ignore it because you're not interested. And also, look to, again, being charitable. Allie's on a huge stage. What's she going to say? No, Tim, you changed my mind? Oh, my God. Of course not.

[April Lajoy]

You know, and I also. It's also important to note, too, that her livelihood depends on her not budging an inch. She has.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly.

[April Lajoy]

She has made her entire, like every way that she makes money, her entire existence completely hinges on her keeping her same beliefs. If she ever changes her beliefs, she loses her platform and audience.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. Agreed.

[Ali Stuckey]

The Bible condones polygamy.

[Tim Whitaker]

What? I'm saying, the Bible, absolutely.

[Ali Stuckey]

It doesn't condone it.

[Tim Whitaker]

It absolutely, again, does.

[Ali Stuckey]

Look at Solomon's life. Mo wives, mo problems. We do not.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's one example. David was a man for God's own heart.

[Ali Stuckey]

Again, David had big problems. He took on.

[Tim Whitaker]

That is, I would.

[Ali Stuckey]

And we see that over and over.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you believe in Genesis 1? Do you believe that that's a literal account of how the earth was created?

[Ali Stuckey]

I do, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

So Adam and Eve were the first two people ever.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. So how did they and their kids.

[Ali Stuckey]

Hold on. That is.

[Tim Whitaker]

I want to finish. How did they and their kids have more kids without breaking, first off, the rule of incest, which we know we would deeply deplore. And also multiple partners.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah, well, they wouldn't have had to have multiple partners.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know how that would work.

[Ali Stuckey]

We don't know exactly how everything was populated. But that's also not the claim that I'm making. The claim that I'm making is that the only holy definition of marriage in the Bible is between one man and one woman. It's not just about Genesis 1, but the logic of Genesis 1 throughout Scripture.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's the logic of Genesis 1, which you rooted. That was your first point in creation.

[Ali Stuckey]

It's rooted in creation by the logic.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of having to populate the entire earth out of one couple. It doesn't work.

[Ali Stuckey]

That's not necessarily true. God set things up so it's only.

[Tim Whitaker]

One man and one woman for life. Right. Marriage and then set things up so they had to pre or procreate, assume, assumingly, possibly with their own children.

[Ali Stuckey]

We don't know how many children they had, and we don't know how exactly it was populated.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, I mean, we. We know how kids are made, right? So at some point kids were. Or then adults.

[April Lajoy]

But think about that.

[Ali Stuckey]

You are not undermining my claim that the Bible only calls one kind of marriage holy. That we should be representing today, because it's not just about Genesis 1.

[April Lajoy]

Okay, what are the red flags?

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what I got out. Okay, so here's how this works. After two minutes of talking, people can start raising a red flag. The second the majority votes you out with red flags, you have to stop and they switch someone else in. Ah, that's why this is so tough. It's not like I have a guaranteed five minutes. After two minutes, if they hate, if the crowd hates what I'm saying, they all raise their flag. I get stopped. What is interesting to me is again, I'm trying to. I'm trying to explain to her that if. If the. The only holy view of marriage in her mind that. That the Bible endorses is one man and one woman, the how she understands Genesis 1 just undermines that. Because if Adam and Eve were the only two people on earth, at some point you're sleeping with multiple partners that are your own children to make that happen.

[April Lajoy]

Unless. Unless Adam and Eve had daughters that were not mentioned and then the children slept with each other, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

So like, okay, so like the ideal is this, right? It's still incest, right? Adam and Eve, let's say they each had. Let's say they had a boy and a girl. Okay, then what. At what age do they start having children and who's having it with them? If Adam and Eve only sleep with themselves and their kids all. All pair up somehow it just worked out where it's an even amount, a one to one ratio, I guess that still maintains the one man, one woman ideal. But they're. They're. They're related. So, like, God sets it up this way, but then makes Adam and Eve be forced to break the setup that God created. It's. It's illogical. The math ain't mathing on that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Ali, you can't say Genesis 1 is a literal telling of how the Earth was created. Adam and Eve were the only two literal human beings on the earth that we all descend from. And somehow this ideal of marriage that you promote, one man and woman, 1, 1 one woman for life is not broken.

[April Lajoy]

I will say just the fact that you made her add a little caveat to her original claim. I mean, I feel like you won, but obviously all her people, like, she roasted you, man.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, no, they. Oh, dude. I mean, where's the one that I saw? I got a few of these here. So Christopher Yon Yuan says, I'm a complete heretics. I like Preston Sprinkle. We'll get to this clip from this one from Megan, but someone else was Joel Berry. Joel Berry. The word of God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Great job. By Alvi Sucky here. The entire debate is worth watching. Again, if that is true, then the passages I cited a second ago about God regulating polygamy legitimizes polygamy. If you take more than one wife, do not deny her conjugal rights. Okay? Is that not prescriptive? Like, again, how much clearer can it be?

[April Lajoy]

It's if the word of God is the same today, yesterday, today and forever, which I, I understand. Like, I've, I, I've heard that my whole life. Then, then the Bible would have said, this is descriptive and this is prescriptive because all that stuff was literally added late. Like, was interpreted later.

[Tim Whitaker]

It is, it is there. The evangelical apologetics industry is embarrassing, but they are, they have created a really powerful echo chamber where people soak this shit up and go, wow, Ali was a bold truth teller here. Ali was a great representation of true biblical Christianity. With all due respect to Ali as a human, because I met her and even her husband, we were very cordial. She doesn't know what she's talking about, which is why she won't have Pete Ends on her show, why she won't have Dr. Jennifer Byrd on her show, or Dan McClellan. Because she knows she'd be outclassed, because she has no clue what the hell she's talking about on these topics.

[April Lajoy]

Well, and this is exactly why, too. I mentioned this earlier, me, 15 years ago, I love debating. I took debate classes. Like, I would have gone in and debate liberals day in and day, you know, day out. Like, I would just say the same thing she did. Because as long as you don't budge, you feel like you win. We're like, now I don't have any interest in debating because every, every, like, every time I learn something new, I'm just reminded of how much I don't actually know. And I'm aware I'm not a biblical scholar. Like, I actually know a lot more about the Bible now than I did When I was conservative, you know, like, I've taken college Bible classes and learned, like, learned a lot that way. But I was only taught apologetics, which is. You're like, it's just being taught how to. To defend what you already believe. You're not actually taught original translations. You're not taught, you know, different ways to interpret scripture. You're not taught the context. And she even brought up earlier, I always take everything out of context, which, you know, initially is. Is just automatic in context, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

In context.

[April Lajoy]

Oh yeah. She says she takes everything in context. She always reads the whole thing, which is total BS because they don't take Sodom and Gomorrah in context ever. They use that to condemn queer people when it, like literally Ezekiel's like the sin of your sister Sodom is that your people were overfed and they did not take care of the poor. Has nothing to do with homosexuality.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let me just. Let me just. Again, I'm going to. Let's use. And then we're going to move on because time is flying. Let's just use Ali's logic and use it in a way that focuses on a different issue. Allie would say the Bible is clear. The Bible is true. We have to be biblical Christians. We can't compromise on the word of God. And so she would cite passages that she says or is thinking, emphasize homosexuality as proof that being gay is sinful and wrong. We have to stand against it in culture. Okay, but. And we don't think about this enough, just quote Paul 1 Corinthians 6. I'm going to read this. Get ready. Suppose one of you wants to bring a charge against another believer. Should you take it to ungodly people to be judged? Why not take it to the Lord's people? Or don't you know that the Lord's people will judge the world? Since this is true, aren't you able to judge small cases? Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more. Suppose you disagree with one another in matters like this. Who do you ask to decide which of you is right? Do you ask people who live in a way the church disapproves of? Of course not. I say this to shame you. Is it not possible that no one among you is wise enough to judge matters between believers? Instead, one believer goes to court against another and this happens in front of unbelievers. When you take another believer to court, you have lost the battle already. Why not be treated wrongly? Why not be cheated and my point is just to say Ali would never think twice about suing another believer if there was defamation. She loves when Trump takes his enemies to court. Like, we don't think twice about this. Right. It's so far removed from our psyche. Even as a progressive, I'm like, well, I'm not sure Paul really is talking about, you know, how we handle things today, but Ali is going to hold to this super strict interpretation about homosexuality, which is super debatable. But blatant teachings, prescriptions from Paul, from the same Bible that she says is God's moral word, never changes and is inerrant. She just ignores that she had. She does not care if Matt Walsh or Charlie Kirk or another believer takes someone else to court. Right. And again, some people might say that's ridiculous. That's my point. Our context, our cultural moment shapes how we see the Bible and how we interpret it, because the words are just as black and white as they are for Ali about homosexuality. Yet one is. Is raised as this must be a cultural norm in America because the Bible. And the other is, this is dis. Is diminished. Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

And that's not even counting the actual teachings of Jesus. Like what you do to the least of these, you do to me that Ali and a lot of other MAGA Christians completely ignore based on how they are cheering on ice right now. But that's another conversation.

[Tim Whitaker]

We got a few super chats. You wanted to read them real quick.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. We got one from Joshua Blackwell. Thanks so much, Joshua. Hey, by the way, friends, all super chats support the show as a new evangelicals production. We rely on the generosity of donors as a nonprofit and super chats. So thank you so much. Stevie the clown says you didn't come for a debate. You came for an argument. No, I didn't. Yes, you did. I feel that. And Celtic Rover says 2nd Samuel 12 claimed God. God gave him Saul's wives. This is a great point, Celtic. I often say that the Bible does say that God gave David his wives. I should have brought that up. I didn't. In the moment, that's on me. Okay, let's keep moving. I have two more videos I want to share. I did not get up for this claim. And the claim was empathy can be toxic and lead to sin. I tried to get up. I did what I could to get up. It did not happen. Let's watch this minute and a half claim of Allie talking to someone. And then I want to say to you what I would have said to her if I had the chance. By the way. Please make sure to give this video a like and share it with your friends. It really helps.

[Ali Stuckey]

Yeah. Okay. Let me give you an example of what I think is toxic empathy. And this will probably unleash a can of worms, which will be fun. If I feel so deeply that someone who sits across from me says, you know what? I was assigned male at birth, but I am trapped in the wrong body. And I am. I identify as a girl. I would say that feeling so deeply how that person feels that you get to the point of affirming their identity and saying, yes, you are the opposite sex.

[Tim Whitaker]

The Bible doesn't condemn transgenderism.

[Ali Stuckey]

Let's get there. Hang on. That is an example of what I would say is empathy that has turned toxic because you are affirming something that is not true and is destructive for the individual.

[Tim Whitaker]

If it's not true, then you're saying that God is not sovereign because he did not.

[Ali Stuckey]

He made their bodies. If he's sovereign in the moment of conception, then he also created people. Mind with biology is their identity.

[Tim Whitaker]

Their mind is their identity, their consciousness. Because biology is not an individual.

[Ali Stuckey]

I mean, that's not a biblical idea. To separate your identity and your spirit from your body is dualism. That's more of a kind of a Gnostic idea, not a biblical idea. We see in Genesis 1:27 that God created us male and female. We don't see any other category or possibility to identify as something other than what you biologically are. So I would say it is toxically empathetic to feel so deeply how someone feels that you affirm the lie that you can be born in the wrong body. You're right. God is sovereign. He does not make a mistake. If you are born a man or a woman, boy or a girl, that is what you are.

[April Lajoy]

Intersex people exist.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my God. By the way, the Bible has a category. They're called eunuchs. Units existed in the Bible and guess what? They're not fully male or seen that way, or fully female or somewhere in between. Again, Jennifer, do I have the book? Is it. Where is it? I'll try and pull it up. But Jennifer. Doctor. Dr. Jennifer Bird's book Marriage in the Bible. What do the texts say is a great scholarly approach on this topic. Ali is again, once is misinformed. The Bible does have other categories besides male and female that are mentioned. You just don't know the context and culture they come from. Ali. And number two, notice how she appeals to Genesis 1:27. Right. So that can be used to deny transgender People the right to exist. But when I point out other parts of it, that's just pre descriptive, not prescriptive, it is unbelievable.

[April Lajoy]

I also just want to point out too, she makes the claim that if you are, that if you affirm a trans person that it's destructive to them because it's not true. When there have been study after study after study and data shows that trans people who do not get any sort of gender affirming care, who are not supported by their family, that is actually more destructive. They have high, high percentages of suicide ideation, many of them do die by suicide. That is destructive. And studies show that if you have, if people have access to gender affirming care or just supportive family and friends that they have way their life is better, like their life gets better. So disingenuous for her to say it's destructive to affirm something that that person knows better than them. And someone in the comments pointed out, and I mentioned this earlier, intersex people exist. They are born with both parts. And that's not even to talk about your inner, you know, what's the, what is it? Is it gonads? Yeah, gonads. Like there are so many different, like chromosomes and hormones that go into what makes up someone's gender, which is society. Like gender is a social construct, right? But if you're just going on biological sex because they conflate sex and gender, even though they're two different things. But if you're just going by biological sex, intersex people born with both parts exist and they make up about 1 to 2% of the population, which is the same percentage as natural born redheads. So if you have met a natural redhead, you have met an intersex person. And it's just, it frustrates me so much that they just ignore that like that these people exist because they exist.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what I wanted to get up and say. I wanted to start studying data again. Ally, you believe in truth, right? You believe in objective truth. And Elisa Childers, who works with Ali would define it as something that, that which corresponds to reality. Well, the data doesn't freaking lie. Ali, your view of this and how you weaponize the Bible on an issue that is doesn't even address this topic at all. Unless you again, twist verses that have no contextual framework or awareness. Like the author of Genesis or authors did not think about transgenderism or transgender people the way that we do today. They had no framework for it. Right? So she's taking something out of context and using it as A weapon to bludgeon our trans neighbors with. But the data shows that people who do not get access to gender affirming care have a higher risk of suicide. Her empathy is toxic because she is the one who cozies up to men who sexually assault women. She cozies up to convicted felons. She celebrates the kidnapping of immigrants, many of which are here legally and peaceful and nonviolent. She cheers on an administration that is ripping families apart in the name of protect American citizens. And somehow she wants us to believe that we're the ones with toxic empathy because we want our trans neighbor to live now. That's what I wanted to say. I couldn't get up to say it, but I had a whole monologue planned of just giving her truth. Because this is the key thing that people need to understand about evangelical apologetics. They don't use words how you think they would use words. They will claim truth. They will claim that they're being objective. They are some of the most biased people you've ever met because they have a dogma that must. That, that. That. That reality must bend to. So they start with a presupposition that the Bible is inerrant and the Bible is God's word, and the Bible is, is. Is the source of moral, objective truth. They start with those presuppositions. And if it doesn't, if something in the Bible doesn't fit into that, they bend it so it does. Right. They're not being led by what the text actually says. That's why you should get this book Instead of by Dr. Jennifer Byrd. Marriage in the Bible. What do the texts say? Right. She's starting at it from a different framework of, okay, what's actually in the Bible? Like, for example, let me blow some minds real quick thanks to this book, by the way. Do you guys know that there is no Hebrew or Greek word for husband or wife? It's always man or woman. And translators who translate to English make the judgment call on when to use man or, or husband or wife or woman. So. And the language, by the way, especially in the Hebrew Bible, is not one of what we think, you know, consensual. We're in love. No, no, no. It's the language of how Eve takes the, the fruit. That's how a man takes a woman. The language is a man takes a woman, goes into her, marks her essentially as his property, and then they're married. So even Ali's framework of how she thinks about marriage, and she's reading modern Western cultural ideals back into the text. But she's so blind to it. She has the audacity to say I'm just being objective about what's in the Bible.

[April Lajoy]

Right. Which she's not. She's not. She's reading. That's the thing. You have people that read the Bible through a worldview they've already been given. So they are reading Scripture based on their litigation. They're not reading scripture to actually see what it says. They're reading it to confirm their own bias already.

[Tim Whitaker]

By the way, we do this too. Right. I don't want to be pretend that somehow we're, we're, we're totally objective. It's impossible. Do you know why? Because we're humans in a cultural moment shaped by our environment. I'm shaped by capitalism. I'm shaped by American culture. I'm shaped by, by social media. I'm shaped by the values I was given. Right. That goes into how I understand the Bible. Which is why we want to be clear and we want to be nuanced and we want to be humble about the reality that, yeah, we are interpreting the Bible through a lens. Yeah, we do pick and choose what's prescriptive versus descriptive. We all kind of do that. And also it's complicated. But again, in this format, there's just no time to get into this because you're voted out by the time you start.

[April Lajoy]

And that's something that I talk about all the time. You know, like you see conservatives that accuse progressives of cherry picking the Bible. The thing is, everybody cherry picks the Bible. If. No, like people that don't cherry pick, they would be sending women out to live in tents for their time of the month for seven days every month, you know, and you'd be stoning rebellious teens. And literally everybody cherry picks. Some people just are self aware and nuanced enough to admit it because you can use the Scripture as we've seen throughout history, you can use the Bible as a weapon to oppress or you can use it as a liberation tool, tool to bring freedom to the oppressed. And I just choose to use it for the latter 100 and conservatives use it for the former. But they've convinced themselves that using the Bible to oppress marginalized groups is somehow freedom in Christ. But it's not.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's not. Okay, let's get to the last video because this one will be a doozy. I want to pull some things here that are important. So the last claim that I got up for this is at the very end, the claim is progressivism and Christianity are at odds. Now, again, I recommend watching the full debate if you want to see all the context, because other people got it before me. But I'm going to play my footage here. It's about four and a half minutes and then I have a lot of thoughts on this, a lot of thoughts. And we'll go from there. By the way, friends, again, thank you so much for tuning in and being here. It just means the world. Please make sure to give this video a like, it costs you nothing. Just hit that, that like button. It helps get this out to more people who I think need to see it. Because, you know, this, the main jubilee video with Ali has like over a million views. So be helpful to get this out to people as well. Here we go.

[Ali Stuckey]

Hey, let's go.

[April Lajoy]

Tim.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you believe that slavery is wrong?

[Ali Stuckey]

Yes, of course.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you agree with John MacArthur's statements when he says that slavery can be great if you have the right master?

[Ali Stuckey]

No, I don't, I don't know that statement in context.

[Tim Whitaker]

In the context he's talking about slavery.

[Ali Stuckey]

John MacArthur is a great teacher, or was a great teacher, but he said that.

[Tim Whitaker]

So is he wrong on that?

[Ali Stuckey]

But I've never read that quote and so I would have to know for sure exactly what he's talking about. But of course, I condemn all dehumanization and all objectification of people who are all made in the image of God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, I gotta stop here. Let's just pause on this. I want to, I want to explain why this was like, this was actually some insider baseball here. A lot of people don't know who John MacArthur is. He is a very well known reformed man who passed away recently. Incredibly problematic. Okay, but this slavery piece, I wanted to bring this up to Ally on purpose because she loves John MacArthur. He's a great gospel preacher. He's a great hero of the faith, yada, yada, yada, yada. And I, I, I want to pull for you so you know what I'm talking about here to the audience. This is the, this is the full three minute clip from John MacArthur in 2012 that is on like John MacArthur's YouTube channel still. I pulled this from John MacArthur's own YouTube channel. I'm gonna play the full three minute clip without any interruption so you can hear his take on slavery. And then we'll come back to Ali's claim that she stands against all dehumanization. Here we go.

[John MacArthur]

It is a little strange that we have such an aversion to slavery because historically there have been abuses. There have been abuses in marriage. We don't have an aversion to marriage, particularly because there have been abuses. There are parents who abuse their children. We don't have an aversion to having children because some parents have been abusive. Of course, it can have any kind of situation where abuse can be involved. The reason unions grew up in America was not to free slaves. The reason unions grew up in America was because there were people who had businesses and they were abusing their employees. So to throw out slavery as a concept simply because there have been abuses, I think, is to miss the point. In any kind of human relationship, there can be abuses. There can also be benefits for many people, poor people, perhaps people who weren't educated, perhaps people who had no other opportunity. Working for a gentle, caring, loving master was the best of all possible worlds. If he had the right master. Everything was taken care of. So we have to go back and take a more honest look at slavery and understand that God has, in a sense, legitimized it when it's handled correctly by saying, this is the way you're to view your relationship to Jesus Christ, the perfect, all wise, all loving, all compassionate, all beneficent Lord, and you willing to be his slave because of such unique care provided by him.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait. This is their edit. This is their cut.

[John MacArthur]

I will simply ask you one question. Who is my master? If you tell me that my master loves me with a perfect love from which I can never be separated. If you tell me that my master will pour out all his riches on my behalf and hold nothing back. If you tell me that my master knows me and knows what is best for me and in every case will provide everything that is best for me. If you tell me that my master will use me in the advancement of his own enterprises and that I will share in his reward. If you tell me that my master will make me as a son and give me all that he possesses as an heir of his own true son. If you tell me that my master will forgive all my sins and reward me forever, I can't sign up fast enough to be a slave of that master. And that is the issue. Slavery is not objectionable if you have the right master. It's the perfect scenario. Everything you need is met and more in a caring, loving environment where God provides all that we need through Christ. That's what it means to be a Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Listen to me, audience.

[April Lajoy]

That's so gross.

[Tim Whitaker]

That is so gross. I always have the damn receipts for the shit I say to people.

[April Lajoy]

I gotta say it is length Receipt.

[Tim Whitaker]

I know what I am freaking talking when I brought that up. The Ali. I have the receipt every single freaking time. I'm not making shit up or even mischaracterizing it. That's John MacArthur. Posted by John MacArthur's team in his own words from 2012. Now, I say this because Megan Basham, our favorite journalist, right, she called me out for this shit. She said, here's what she said. I laughed so hard, she goes, Whitaker's supposed gotcha about MacArthur's view of slavery is unbelievably deceitful. JM was talking about slavery to Jesus. He argued that the Greek translation is that we are not just servants of Christ, but slaves of Christ. Now, you all just saw the three minute clip I played. Is that what JM was talking about? Especially for the first half when he's talking about how slavery can be great. How many poor people benefited from slavery? No. And Megan Basham, I need to say this to you directly. I hope that we clip this out April, and so we can tag her in this. You are so disingenuous. You are so disingenuous. This clip from John MacArthur is not talking just about the spiritual idea of being a slave to Christ. John MacArthur defends the notion of slavery, clearly, and that it can benefit people if you have the right master. So miss me with your so called journalism bs. You are a total freaking fraud.

[April Lajoy]

But this is a perfect example of how Ali is debating this entire thing. You don't move an inch. You don't actually listen to the points that are being made that are poking holes in your argument because you're just saying, no, that's. That's not what he meant, that you're taking that out of context. Did it?

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know.

[April Lajoy]

You move the goalpost. I don't know what he said. If that's what he said. I don't know. I. I'm not. It is so disingenuous. It is so disingenuous. And it also shows how they can defend Trump.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Again, friends. Thanks for being here during a very special live. I love the chat. It's so helpful and hopefully you see what we're talking about that we're not making this stuff up. Okay, back to me and Ali talking about slavery. It only gets better from here, friends.

[Ali Stuckey]

Same belief that I have about abortion that it's wrong to kill babies inside the womb. Do you think it's all the same?

[Tim Whitaker]

Problem with that though is that your evangelical fundamentalist tradition was on the other side of this conversation all the way. Bob Jones, the founder of Bob Jones University used your exact same framework of how he saw the Bible to justify why the racists should say separate. And then he says all kinds of things.

[Ali Stuckey]

He used your framework imperfect.

[Tim Whitaker]

He used your framework and he said that people who wouldn't, who would not see it his way are liberals. Are progressives trying to distort the truth of the gospel? This is the white evangelical tradition that.

[Ali Stuckey]

You'Re drawing further into Scripture. I would say that he was unbiblical just slavery.

[Tim Whitaker]

Paul says slaves obey your master. Oh, it absolutely does.

[Ali Stuckey]

It is not condoned slaves. I think it acknowledges that it is a part of society, not the goalposts. I think it acknowledges that it is a part of society regulates it. But the Torah regulates slavery. Imago Day I would argue prohibits the ownership.

[Tim Whitaker]

If you would be on the side of the progressives if you were back in the day when race based child slavery happened because you know the argument.

[Ali Stuckey]

Was against that has not changed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes it does. That's a different conversation. But the argument.

[Ali Stuckey]

That's my argument.

[Tim Whitaker]

If you were around during race based shadow slavery show me in the Bible where it condemned slavery and they couldn't. That was the whole point.

[Ali Stuckey]

We are waiting God's image Paul says.

[Tim Whitaker]

For slaves to obey your masters. Do you agree with that statement?

[Ali Stuckey]

Of course I agree with the Bible really quick.

[Tim Whitaker]

The reason why, friends, I was kind of aggressive here is just to kind of. She. She kept on trying to squirm out of the position I was. I was giving her. And I really wanted to hold her down to this claim that the Bible.

[April Lajoy]

Condemned slavery towards the end, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

This. I was the last person of the last claim. This. This is the last. The last you.

[April Lajoy]

You've now lived through an hour plus, yes, her doing this. So I can imagine you were just like, dang it, let's get to the point.

[Tim Whitaker]

I had to, because she would move again. I noticed how she would always do this thing of just moving things. And also like, like, she just said, well, I'll back it up and then we'll continue. But I got her to agree that Paul, you know, condoned slavery. Slaves obey your masters. It's right there. Right, let's back it up. For slaves to obey your masters. Do you agree with that statement?

[Ali Stuckey]

Of course I agree with the Bible.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so you agree with the statement the Bible does condone slavery.

[Ali Stuckey]

That does not mean that I agree with instituting slavery.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, but do you see how illogical that is? I say to Ali, Paul says to obey your masters. Do you agree with the Bible? Do you agree with Paul? Of course I agree with the Bible. Okay, so you agree with Paul for slaves to obey their masters? Well, I'm not saying I agree with instituting slavery. I didn't ask that. I just asked if you agree with Paul's claim that if slaves were, you know, if slavery was happening, how we think about it today, would you agree with Paul's statement that many slave owners used for slaves to obey their masters? Her answer is, I agree with the Bible. So I'm going to assume the answer to that question then is, yes, you would agree with Paul.

[April Lajoy]

It's also just very telling how she can't just outright say, like, yes, I condemn slavery, period.

[Tim Whitaker]

I know, but, but, but you know why? Because she's locked into her own dogma that the Bible is this magical, mystical source of objective moral truth when it's not. Parts of it might be parts, maybe you can argue. But as a whole, the Bible's contradictory. It has many places that you don't want to take its. Its moral realities from, including its prescriptive ideas of how to regulate slavery or how to, you know, have more than one wife and. And not deprive them of conjugal visits, et cetera. Right. But anyway, okay, that's not what I said. I said, the Bible condones slavery. You said, no, it Doesn't I brought the passage where Paul says, slaves obey your masters. I agree with the Bible.

[Ali Stuckey]

He does not. In the book of Philemon, what happens.

[Tim Whitaker]

Endures me and moves on. I'm asking you to. I gave you a passage. Hold on. You are very good at this. You should keep moving the goalposts. Okay? The claim you made was that the Bible does not condone slavery to. I'm not going to let it go. Paul says, slaves to obey your life. You can't make this up. You can't. I literally am repeating back what I'm asking her. She moves to Philemon, not what Paul's talking about. And suddenly I'm the one moving the goalpost. Like, no, you keep moving because you know, I have you. I have you in a corner that you cannot get out of unless you admit that you're wrong on this, which you will never do. So the next tactic is move to a different subject or topic or passage in the Bible and get me to chase that bone. And I refuse to. That's why I had to pin her down here. Do you agree with Paul on that?

[Ali Stuckey]

Wives submit to their husbands, and this is all in the context of children submitting to their fathers. That does not mean that as an institution that he is condoning slavery. He's saying it's good. I think we can read God's heart behind that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, that's. That's a deep interpretation. That's not in the text.

[Ali Stuckey]

What is not in the text?

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, like I said, I'm going to hammer it again. Paul says.

[Ali Stuckey]

He's saying that slavery is good.

[Tim Whitaker]

Paul knew what was going on. He could have condemned it.

[Ali Stuckey]

You think he's saying that slavery is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Good because Paul's a part of the.

[Ali Stuckey]

Sign, a different kind of slavery that existed, which was bond, servant for, by.

[Tim Whitaker]

The way, this is why. That's okay. I let her go here for a reason. I let her go. And you're going to hear why at the end. I'm going to let her go here.

[Ali Stuckey]

So people were in debt. I was so happy out of debt. Sometimes they would have bond service for a certain amount of time to pay their way into freedom. It was not always the same as the chattel slavery that we see in the 19th century in America, for example. And so it was a different context and it was a different time. That does not mean that any of us should condone slavery.

[Tim Whitaker]

All I want to say is that you perfectly gave the framework for why we don't believe that homosexuality in the Bible is the same thing as it is today. Same thing. You walk. She walked right into it. Well, the slavery back then, I'm just like, huh?

[April Lajoy]

I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Keep cooking. Keep cooking. Yes, exactly. Ally, let's take your argument, which I would disagree with some points, but for sake of argument. Yes, Ali, the slavery back then is different than what it was in American America as a race based child slavery. And there are different things in the culture and context matters for how we think about slavery.

[Ali Stuckey]

Sure.

[Tim Whitaker]

Now apply that framework, which is totally reasonable, to this very complicated word that Paul uses that some biblical translations translate to homosexuality. Right. When we know there's a whole different way of thinking about same sex sex in the ancient culture than how we think about it today. But she can't do that because it's dogma over data. She's committed to her political presuppositions that gay people are destroying America and she has to find that in the text. Right. She has no problem utilizing what we could even call our progressive frameworks about interpretation and culture and how things change. Right. And how our views of this stuff changes when it comes to things that are obvious, like slavery. Thank God for her, by the way. But when it comes to homosexuality, suddenly we can't do that. Wow. Yeah.

[April Lajoy]

Do you keep going?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I got a minute and a half left. We'll finish this up and then we'll wrap. Okay. You can't say slavery in the Bible back then was contextual and different than what race based childhood slavery is and then not do the same thing for homosexuality.

[Ali Stuckey]

The Bible has prescriptive and descriptive.

[Tim Whitaker]

I agree.

[Ali Stuckey]

Allegory and poem.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%.

[Ali Stuckey]

Genesis 1 is allegory and literalism, everything in context. And when we see homosexuality not only explicitly condemned, but we also see again from creation all the way to Revelation 20, that it's an earthly reflection of an eternal reality. The marriage between Christ and the church, which is gendered, by the way, as we see in Ephesians 5. We see that reiterated over and over again. So it's not only that the Bible condemns it again, it is the only relationship that God calls.

[Tim Whitaker]

Good. I'll let it go. I'm fine with that.

[Ali Stuckey]

You did great.

[April Lajoy]

You did really good.

[Ali Stuckey]

Thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

We're out of time, so thank you. Look, I want to be clear, Ali, if you're imagining watching this, I will run this back with you anytime you can come on the show. We can, we can, we can talk with our teams behind the scenes. So it's good faith. I am happy to have a long form nuanced conversation with you. About these topics. I really am, because I'm not afraid to engage. I'm not afraid of reality. I'm not afraid of biblical scholarship on this stuff. I'm not afraid of being consistent. I'm not afraid of that. But I notice. And again, I want to be so friends. I like qualifying myself. I don't want to come across like I'm trying to read the worst into people. But Ali has not shared any of our clips. She shared all other clips about abortion and empathy with other people. She will not share my clips. I don't know why that is. That's. That's her prerogative. But I just noticed that. And I, I wonder. And look, she doesn't owe me a conversation. People ask me to debate them all the time. I'm like, I don't have time. I'm not interested. So she doesn't owe me this. But I do wonder if deep down maybe she's a little concerned about talking to me because I have so many receipts and I followed her work for so long, you know, like, I could be here all day giving her examples. Even John MacArthur, you know, he protected two men who were pedophiles who blessed their own children on his staff. Why does she call him a good gospel preacher when he's unaccountable, but he's never acknowledged wrongdoing?

[April Lajoy]

Sounds like she has some toxic empathy for John MacArthur.

[Tim Whitaker]

You would think so.

[April Lajoy]

You would think. Also, can I just say, like, on a, just on a petty note, I just like the idea of all these big alpha male Christian nationalists MAGA men having to say that they are the bride.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wearing all white on their wedding day for Lord Jesus. Yeah.

[Ali Stuckey]

Oh.

[Tim Whitaker]

Anyway, friends, we, we got a lot of super chats. I'll read a few because we're just running out of time here.

[April Lajoy]

We can get through all of them, I think. Is there anything else we needed to go? Like, were there any other responses you wanted to show?

[Tim Whitaker]

No, we're pretty short on time here. I mean, you know, the, the evangelical apologist world watched this whole debate and, you know, it's honest. Youth pastor says it's heartbreaking to see the devastation that both progressiveness and politics have done to the church.

[April Lajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Alvisucky is so political, like, so incredibly political, but I guess that's not a problem for him. Yeah, there were a few other people that tweeted this stuff. Reformed. Twitter, like, went off. They were. They couldn't believe how much she destroyed everyone that she talked to and how thought out she was. But again, like, everyone can be guilty of this, but they really are such an echo chamber. That is so not curious. Right. Like April, you and I are curious people. This show, we have a lot of guests. We would talk, talk to people that we don't necessarily agree with. We're willing to have the conversation and concede. Maybe we don't have it all together. Evangelical apologists and reformed fundamentalism is not concerned about that. They're always about defending. How do we defend our points, how do we put, you know, make sure that we destroy the opponent. That's the whole vibe. It's frustrating.

[Ali Stuckey]

Right.

[April Lajoy]

Well, and then there's just. You and I are, come from an understanding that we're probably wrong about some things.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Lajoy]

You know, and we, we still have plenty of things to learn. Like, I, I, every day I realize, like, oh my gosh, I, there's just so much I don't know. Like, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know things. Right. Where, when you come from that world and you and I know this because we both used to be fundamentalist that flirted with apologetics and would use her exact same talking points. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I debated just like she did, I used those exact same talking points. Her talking points are not new. They're taught to children and youth groups and churches all over the country for decades, probably centuries. Like that is nothing new. But when you're in her world, you are taught that having an open mind is bad. Because I mean something my dad used to always say, like from the pulpit because he was a pastor, he'd be like, yeah, I get accused of being narrow minded, but I can afford to be because I'm right. You know, like, you almost wear the bigot badge as a badge of honor because you don't need to learn anything else. You know everything. You know everything that's important. It's a very black and white ideology. It's a very heavy ideology to live with and you don't realize how heavy it is until you leave it behind. But it is simple because you don't have to think about things and you don't have to worry about, you know, how climate change is destroying the earth or, or about the wars and the genocide in Gaza or, or how we're mistreating immigrants because none of it really matters at the end of the day because Jesus is going to come back and start the rapture and save us all and destroy the earth and he's got it in control. So, like, it's in some ways it's easier because ignorance is bliss. But it's also, you just. You can't have genuine relationships because everybody, if they don't think and believe exactly like you do, you have to view them as a project to save as as opposed to a human to love.

[Tim Whitaker]

Agreed. Hey, I do have this 42nd outro from Ali talking about her time. You want to watch that real quick and then we'll sign off?

[April Lajoy]

Yeah. Did we get through all the super chats though? We should do that real quick.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sorry. Okay, you're right. Let's see. We'll start with. Oh, this one from so many. Okay. Audrey Burns. Isn't it amazing the. The bitching comebacks you come up with the next day? Oh, yes, Audrey. I had a lot of those shower thoughts. Like I should have said this later on.

[April Lajoy]

I love how you hesitated on saying bitching.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I was like, wait, are you calling someone that word or Stephen, who was actually also on Jubilee as well. Good to see you. Steve says I'm a monthly donor to tne. That's the New Evangelicals. Because what Tim and April are doing is so important. I hope others do the same. Thank you so much. If people want to support this show as a 501c3 nonprofit donor, you can go to thenewevangelicals.com support. Our goal is to raise or is our goal is to find a thousand people to give five bucks a month. If we do that, we will be really well funded as an organization. We do so much more than just than just this show. We have our own private community space. We have two other podcasts, Advocacy Hour and the New Evangelicals Podcast. We. We have an action side now. Like we're doing a lot of work and your support really helps us. So thank you so much. A word worker's wisdom. I'm betting Ali plays that the that's not actually dehumanization game a lot. Joseph Compton said by a man who never experienced slavery for himself. That's really true about John MacArthur Chanel 8. And then it is no surprise how Grace Community Church and J. Mac did what they did to Eileen Gray. That's regarding the molestation charges. That's again, we've covered that on the New Evangelicals many times. You can go over there and check it out. And last one, Dan McClellan stitched this segment. It's amazing regarding to my slavery piece and by the way, I gotta say, I was like, I can die a happy man if Dan McClellan stitched me and did not call me out. I Was like, I made it. I've arrived, you know, so thank you, Dan.

[April Lajoy]

I got Tagged by Dan McClellan one time in a video and my husband, heart sank. Oh, no, I'm in trouble.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, let's see.

[April Lajoy]

He was reaffirming what I said and was stitching someone who stitched me. And I was like, thank God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank God. Yeah. Okay, awesome. All right, last. This is, this is Alvi's, like, exit interview. It's 42nd civil wrap up, friends.

[Ali Stuckey]

I think Democrats and Republicans could come together more than they do right now if we can agree on some fundamental things. For example, that political violence is always wrong, that you should be free to speak your mind no matter how controversial your opinion is, that debate is very healthy, and that we should get out the things that we think and duke it out in the battlefield of ideas and let the best idea win. I.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is the same woman who supports a president who is suing media outlets because they don't like what he's saying. This is the same person who supports Elon Musk banning people on Twitter who are more progressive. Like, it just again, like, she says one thing, but the real ally and the real perspectives do not jive with this idea at all.

[April Lajoy]

It's also just disingenuous. As if progressive Christians don't already subscribe to everything she's just saying.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally. And by the way, by the way, I mean, where is she during all the right wing violence that we know happens at a rate statistically higher of left wing violence? Where was she when Melissa Hortman was murdered by a Christian nationalist? Right. Where is she on these topics? Look through her Twitter. You will see very few times, if any, when she acknowledges political violence done in the name of like the right wing maga version. It's just so disingenuous. Also, she has said from her Twitter account that if you support abortion, you're probably not a real Christian. You can't be a Democrat and a Christian. So her initial line of, I think that we can find more common ground if this, it's not true. She doesn't see it that way. As we saw from her text with Charlie, we are enemies to be defeated. She had to throw us off of our game by asking for what our name is. As if that would throw me off. I'd be like, oh, that's great. Thank you for being so cordial. I wouldn't be like, whoa, what's this raging maga person doing asking my name? Like, what is she? It's just so crazy to me, right.

[April Lajoy]

Well, and they don't consider us Christians. We consider them.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly.

[April Lajoy]

They consider us heretics deserving of eternal punishment.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, exactly.

[Ali Stuckey]

Hope to show you that truth and love can and should coexist. That you can see someone's humanity, have compassion for them, understand where they're coming from, without wavering on the truth of God's word at all.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, there you go.

[April Lajoy]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Bs. I mean, we'll let that sit how it needs to, so. Well, I'm glad I got this off my chest. I've been holding it in for a few days now, so. Thanks, April, for joining me on this, like, Tim Whitaker rant.

[April Lajoy]

I know. I mean, I have trouble. I don't like platforming people that just have harmful ideologies. But I also agree that there is. Someone's got to talk to them. You know, maybe. Maybe you planted us a little seed and changed someone's mind out there.

[Tim Whitaker]

I can only hope. Ally, you're welcome to come on the show. We'll treat you cordially, but we have a lot of questions. The invitation's open. Same thing for you, Megan Basham. I've. I've asked you on the show many times, so you're welcome to join.

[April Lajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, friends. Well, listen. Oh, God. Sorry.

[April Lajoy]

Oh, I was gonna say just to. While the people are here, you can also get my book.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Lajoy]

Star Spangled Jesus, if you want to know what it's like to be a Christian nationalist from someone who lived it and left it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, fun. Cool. Well, friends, thank you for being here. Please make sure to give this video a like. If you're listening on podcast, make sure to share this episode. Give that the. The podcast a rating and a review. It really helps us out. Cannot thank you enough for being here. It means the world. There is no live stream this Thursday. I'll be away at Theology Beer Camp with the New Evangelicals, doing some really fun stuff there. So make sure you follow our Instagram account at the New Evangelicals. You'll see me over there and then we'll come back here.

[April Lajoy]

Yep. But we will have an episode that we're releasing. We prerecorded. Are we releasing that Friday or Thursday?

[Tim Whitaker]

I think Thursday.

[John MacArthur]

Okay.

[April Lajoy]

Podcast will be Friday, probably.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[April Lajoy]

Anyway, it's coming. Just pay attention.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's coming.

[April Lajoy]

Subscribe so you don't miss it.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's all I got. Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Lajoy]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

See ya.

[April Lajoy]

Bye.