A (2:56)

Wear headphones.

B (2:56)

Don't wear headphones.

A (2:58)

I'm just, I'm being a diva today.

B (3:01)

Well, you are sick and you're still recording, so thanks.

A (3:04)

I know. Look at me. Look at me bearing my cross.

B (3:07)

But for the record, I did say we don't have to record today. So I want everyone to know I did not force April to do this episode.

A (3:15)

Oh, are we like, going already? Hi.

B (3:16)

We're recording. April. We're recording.

A (3:19)

Welcome to the Tim and April show. We're not even going to say hi. We're just going to.

B (3:23)

I figured we'd get there, my friends. Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

A (3:29)

I'm April Ajoy.

B (3:30)

Welcome back to the show.

A (3:32)

It's so funny. Just a few days ago I was telling beer, my spouse, I was like, man, we've done really good this school year so far and not getting sick. And then I knocked on wood, but it didn't work because now me and my kids are, are got like sniffles and a cold. So are you.

B (3:52)

You know, I was thinking about, we've been doing this show now by itself as a standalone. What was our first episode? Was it.

A (3:58)

It was in February.

B (3:59)

February. So we're, we're coming up to it. I really enjoy doing this show. It's a lot of fun for me.

A (4:07)

A lot. I also enjoy it. Fun. It's, it's weird to put fun to it because of the heavy things that we usually talk about, but it is. There is. I mean, yeah, we make really scary, heavy things. Maybe bearable. I don't know. Ish. It's terrible. But yeah, you know, if you don't laugh, you cry.

B (4:33)

Yeah, sometimes I do both. Honestly on the show I keep thinking about, like, how this show's going to keep evolving and where we're going to go from here. And I mean, and I mean this, like, I know people are going to be watching and listening to this part of our conversation, but I, we, we live in a very weird intersection, April. Right. Because we grew up in this very like white evangelical thing that is responsible for what's happening today. I mean, we covered the data already that 76% of white evangelicals think that Trump is doing a bang up job. So we have that side. And we also know like this sub Christian culture that is so niche that most Americans have no idea about. And so we can speak to like that audience that grew up like we did and we can make all the jokes about church and Sunday school and vbs and people get that. And then I think especially since we've been going live with on Lincoln Square Media. We're reaching a whole different audience of people who really have no context and are here for, for listening to two Christians rant about how much they hate Christian nationalism. And I don't know, I feel like in this, I don't mean to toot our own horn. I just feel like we are so diverse in what we could or couldn't do on the show at any given. Which is, which is frustrating because usually, and this is just insider baseball for those listening, you build an audience by being consistent or by having a lane. Right. You don't build an audience by just talking about whatever you want at any given time. But part of me kind of thinks that's the appeal. Like, I like that we could talk about whatever we want whenever we want. It's fun for me.

A (6:05)

Yeah. I mean, have we done that though? I feel like usually it's somewhat connected to Christian nationalism and so.

B (6:11)

Because that's all we want to talk about.

A (6:13)

Right. Like, I mean, I think we kind of did pick the lane, though.

B (6:17)

Yeah, I guess you're right. I don't know. I. Maybe, maybe I'm thinking about. I watch a lot of these podcasts where they have like two co hosts who have been doing it forever and they have such great banter and like they talk about kind of anything and then they'll kind of get like their main, main topic. And I don't know, I, I enjoy that part of the conversation as well. It's, it's nice, it's a nice primer before we get into the hell on earth that is American politics and Christianity right now. So.

A (6:39)

Yeah, no, I know. And we, we pivoted on what we were going to talk about literally right before we hit record. Because full disclosure, I've had my in laws in the last several days actually still here. They're about to leave. Plus I've been sick. Plus we've just, it's just been a lot and it's hard to plan a show, especially these pre recorded shows, because usually it just takes a little more research if we're talking about a specific topic or just, you know, pulling the clips. I mean it takes a lot and we don't have like a full team. Like we don't have real producers. You and I are.

B (7:15)

You're doing the research and live, I have like four screens going. I'm hitting all these different buttons, trying to pull chats in, watching stuff, research.

A (7:23)

Like as we're recording, like, oh, what is that? Let's fact check.

C (7:26)

That.

A (7:27)

So this may not be the most succinct. Succinct. Succinct.

B (7:35)

Succinct.

A (7:35)

Yeah, yeah, that word. It may not be, like, the smoothest, but that's. You know what? This is real life. We're two human beings behind this camera that plan the show ourselves, and it's fine. I. I don't know about you. I was like, I'm just gonna be real for a second. How do you. I get this question a lot in comments, and I think even in comments on our show, I've seen a few of. There's just a lot of people that feel this kind of despair, you know, because you see what's happening in our country getting worse, not getting better, getting worse, you know, and then it's just. But you have to keep going. Like, you. You can't just. You still have to live your life. We still have to go to the grocery store. You still have to do all these mundane things.

B (8:26)

Right?

A (8:27)

And I don't know about you, but I find it this. There's just this constant tension that I feel in the back of my head or even in, like, my chest that's always underlying everything I do right now. But it's so weird to me because I still have family and friends, mainly on Facebook, not so much, like, in person that I see anymore, that are still very conservative, that act like the world is great right now. And that, to me is like. It's almost like you're being gaslit. But I know better to know that that's not true. You know that. But it's just. It's just such a weird. It's just a really weird time to live, to see the actual terror that we are doing on immigrants, the snap benefits that have gone, you know, people that are going to be even hungrier, and you see all these really terrible things happening to our fellow human being. And then so many. And they're all Christian. So many of my conservative Christian friends and family are just so unbothered and living their best life. They think it's great. They think everything that's happening is great. And I don't know why, especially when they were all America first and Trump's now bailing out Argentina and doing all these weird things for other countries. I don't know. It's just. It's just a really weird time to live.

B (9:54)

Nothing makes coherent sense. That's what's so, like, I keep trying to find the thread. How do we go from the right being like, don't send Ukraine any more money. America first, and then to your point, Trump gives Argentina $40 billion and not one right wing media person's talking about it as a major 40 or 20. I heard 40. Maybe it was 20, but it was several tens of billions of dollars.

A (10:18)

And by the way, I know it's.

B (10:19)

A lot of money, maybe fact check me, but I'm pretty sure it's 40 billion or 20. Um, but also, he's undercutting American farmers by doing that. And I, I. Okay, this. Gosh, my head has been swimming in what you're talking about. In fact, I made a post on my own Instagram recently where I was like, look, my head, I have things that I want to say, but it's so jumbled. And frankly, I dropped the F bomb and I'm like, I'm just freaking tired. I don't know what the freaking say. I keep saying the same thing every single time I get on air. Ice raids are happening. We're kidnapping children. We are zip tying children. We're ripping out SNAP benefits for people who need it. And what is, I think, one of the threads for me that still makes me feel bewildered by it all, despite knowing more than ever. Right? Like, I know more than ever regarding how we got here. I know more than ever about the white evangelical movement in America. I know anyone who's listened to the who's listens to the New Evangelicals podcast knows that I've interviewed and have been in conversation with all the major scholars on these topics. I've read the books and so have you. You, you wrote a book, right? Star Spangled Jesus. So we know cognitively how we got here. But I think, like, my heart is still so befuddled because even as a very conservative Christian, things that are happening now would go against my values. Does that make sense? Like, even if I was still a conservative Christian who believed in strong borders, I wouldn't think that smashing the windows, the car windows of pregnant women and dragging them out of their car and arresting them with no due process would be a humane, Christlike approach to fixing the immigration issue. Does that make sense? I look at many other things. Even SNAP benefits, you know, um, okay, why we can. We have. The government has contingency money to pay SNAP benefits. The Trump administration is, is refusing to do so again.

C (12:24)

Right.

B (12:25)

Even if I was so conservative and thought that all those poor people just don't work hard enough, as if that's the biggest issue, I would still think it's inhumane to deprive people of access to food.

A (12:37)

Right?

B (12:37)

Right. That is what I Don't understand is, like, even as a conservative evangelical, I knew that Hitler was bad. And people who said that Hitler was great shouldn't be trusted. That is what is difficult, because it's like this both and where, yes, the racism, the hatred, even the early stages of fascism were kind of brewing when we were kids, but it was nothing like even what it is today. And so that's what's, like, tough for me that I go back and forth with. And then to your point, I look at friends on Facebook or people that maybe I know in real life who I really love and respect, and I go, how are you again, as a Christian, as someone who claims allegiance to the way of the risen Christ, how do you see this going on? And think, man, America's doing great even for their own interests. Inflation's up by 3%. It's up. It hit a new record. Our job, our jobs are not growing. Right. Like, things aren't even good for them. Has anyone gotten a Doge reimbursement check? Remember when they were talking about that, oh, maybe we'll give it back to the American people. Oh, that never happened. And by the way, last thing I'll say, then I'll stop ranting about this. Our debt is exploding under Trump, like, by trillions of dollars. Again, as a conservative evangelical, I remember the Tea Party. We had to be fiscally responsible. Trump is exploding the debt, and no one on that side's batting an eye. That's why I just stand with you and go, what upside down world are we living in?

A (14:07)

I know. You were right about 40 billion, by the way. It was initially 20, and then it got bumped up to 40, which, by the way, would help tremendously with everyone's SNAP benefits that are going away. Like, you don't have to bail out another country.

B (14:21)

Maybe that's what. What so called, you know, quote unquote, radicalized me was realizing that we are the world's richest country. We own 25% of the world's wealth with only 3% of the world's population, and you're telling me we don't have the money to feed our hungry children. We don't have the money to solve affordable healthcare. We don't have the money for free higher education, but we have the money to send to Argentina or to, to, to. To embolden and grow ice to the tune of billions of dollars as we give them, you know, free college tuition, essentially by paying off their school debt. $50,000. Right?

A (15:03)

Yeah.

B (15:03)

You're saying we could do all that, but we can't feed hungry kids in our schools. Something is wrong.

A (15:10)

Can I vent for a second?

B (15:11)

Yeah. It's your turn.

A (15:12)

I'm something that I've been seeing online that annoys me to no end. And I think it's really amped up since Charlie Kirk's murder because there's this. This kind of narrative that they think he's kind of started this movement being a Christian martyr, which we've talked about the problems with calling Charlie Kirk a martyr in the past, but they're running with it. And so I've seen a bunch of different Christians online that post videos of young people, teenagers, like high school students in Mass, like, singing worship songs, whether it's at a football game or it's just at a church conference. And they're. They're posting these videos of young people lifting their hands and singing a worship song. And then you saying, this is proof that revival is happening in America. And that pisses me off because. And I literally responded to one of them on threads, and I was like.

B (16:12)

Oh, they got you, huh? Yeah.

A (16:15)

American citizens are starving. We are. We are terrorizing our immigrant population. But sure, America's going through revival because young people can sing a song collectively. Like, that is not the sign of revival. It is so performative. Like, their whole idea of Christianity is performative. And it's also interesting to me that it's. A lot of these people want America to be a Christian nation. They want to have a Christian government, and they want to enact all these Christian laws when it comes to abortion or homosexuality or, like, any sort of social issue. But when it comes to feeding the hungry, suddenly that's not the government's job. That's the church's job. That's the individual job. Like, what are you talking about? Like that. That's the thing. Like, if you. If you really want a Christian nation, if you're following the teachings of Jesus, a Christian nation wouldn't be that terrible. We would be taking care of the poor and the widow and the orphan. But that is not what these Christian nationalists want. They just want power. They want to exploit the marginalized, and they want to basically just enact all of these oppressive rules and laws on people that are different than them.

B (17:28)

Exactly. I. I think that's why you and I, and I'm sure many out there listening, had that feeling of what the. Like. Like, we have to be honest about the language here. That's what I. I mean, I wake up every morning thinking that. I mean, look, one of my favorite passages to quote that that you never hear about in Church is James 5, right? It says, listen, you rich people weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look, the wages you failed to pay, the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the innocent one who was not opposing you. Why isn't that used as a proof text for why the billionaire class needs to be taxed? Because there's something deeper than quote, unquote, biblical values or, you know, a godly worldview that there's something deeper underneath of that. And that's why you and I always say that Christian nationalism is built on power and control, right? Somehow, specifically, when it comes to gay people or abortion, you know, the culture war issues, the government should, should, should enforce all the rules that Christian nationalists want. But when it comes to the thousands of verses in the Bible about how we treat the poor and the widow and the oppressed and the clear teachings from Jesus to take care of the sick and the hungry, because when you do that, you're taking care of Christ himself suddenly, well, that's, that's not for the government to do, right? That's. That's for the church to do. Well, newsflash. Not only is the church not doing it, the church can't do it. The American church cannot feed every hungry person in America consistently. They can't do it. They just can't. Like, it's mathematically not a thing that is, is able to be done at the level that the government can. So this is not about, you know, what we think it is. And I think that's what's so hard for us to fathom. Because we were taught very early on as children that Jesus loves the little children of the world. That you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. We sing these songs about God's never ending love, his reckless love, you know, what a beautiful name, right? And then you see what they mean. And for many of our neighbors, that name brings terror on and fear among them because of what these people are advocating for. And I couldn't agree with you more, April, on the the false Sense of revival. Like, you think a mass gathering of children, kids, teenagers singing some of the most basic worship songs in the, you know, in existence is a sign that God is reviving? What is. What does that mean? Like, what does it look like long term in a nation that has revival for them? It looks like gay people are back in the closet, women are forced to give birth. They also can't have access to contraceptives. Of course, there is no livable wage, the billionaire class gets richer and their immigrant neighbor is kidnapped. That's not revival. I'm sorry, that's not.

A (20:42)

Do you know who Lila Rose is?

B (20:44)

Yes. Why would you say her name on the air without telling me, without warning me?

A (20:49)

Because she tweeted this thing. So if you don't know who she is, she runs some. Some sort of pro life.

B (20:56)

She's one of the biggest pro life organizers out there.

A (20:58)

Yeah, yeah, Very anti abortion. Major life. Anti abortion. She tweeted just like a couple weeks ago, Live Action.

B (21:05)

She runs Live Action.

A (21:06)

Live Action, right? Which is very anti abortion. So she's like a huge anti abortion activist. She tweeted normalize saying no to vasectomies.

B (21:16)

I saw that. What the hell?

A (21:20)

And I responded to it because I was just so annoyed. But, like, these people will do anything to stop abortion except support things that stop abortion. Like, the Z are. Are great at preventing abortions. Like, what are you talking about? Like, and they're anti contraceptive. Like, they're anti comprehensive sex education. If we want to actually stop abortions, then support policies that help prevent unwanted pregnancies. But they won't do that either. They just want everyone to be little prudes and abstinent, which is unrealistic.

B (21:54)

This is one of the reasons why I converted from a more pro life to pro choice position. Because even when I was a moderate or conservative, I thought, okay, if we believe that abortion is murder. Murder. That's the word that they use, right? You are slaughtering a child in the womb. If you believe that, wouldn't you want to do whatever you could to prevent that, even if it wasn't your ideal scenario, Right? So, for example, let's say that you're not a huge fan of people having sex outside of marriage, but you realize that people are still going to do it, right? Because they do. Wouldn't you want everyone to wear a condom?

A (22:32)

Right?

B (22:32)

Wouldn't you want everyone to know how that stuff works, how to track your cycle, how to know what consent is? Wouldn't you want everyone to have access to contraceptives that prevent Pregnancy. That way there were no mistakes. So quote, unquote or unplanned pregnancies that would lead to more abortions, AKA the murder of children. Like why? Why? If you believe that it's a modern day holocaust. This is, by the way, for those who are new to the show and maybe thinking, wow, Tim, that's extreme language. This is their language. Okay? We're using the words that they use because we grew up in this, right? It's a modern day holocaust. It's murdering a child, it's a violent act, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Wouldn't you want to do everything in your power with the government to make sure that however we could reduce the amount of abortions we would do? No. The answer is no. Because now vasectomies are bad. Are you freaking kidding me?

A (23:28)

I know, it's so stupid. And studies have shown time after time after time after time that banning, just outright banning abortion doesn't work. All you do is is make it make abortions dangerous. And like they do it just illegally on the side. They're still going to find a way.

B (23:49)

Remember Prohibition back in the day? They found ways to still drink, you know, like, like just saying something's illegal. I mean, it's illegal. Mass shootings are illegal. How's that working out? You know, like.

A (24:02)

Yeah, yeah. In the year following the, the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, which, which led to really strict abortion bans in red states, the national abortion rate went up.

B (24:17)

Yes, it did. Under Trump. Under, under Trump, the most pro life president ever. Look, look at Texas is internal rates.

A (24:27)

Yeah, I thought they ooverturned roe in 22. Am I wrong?

B (24:33)

Abortion rates went up under Trump. That I do know.

A (24:36)

Well, yes, they did in the initial term, but they overturned Roe in.

B (24:40)

You're. I think you might be right.

A (24:42)

I will say if you look at the history of presidents, abortion rates typically are lower when a Democrat is in charge because of the policies that, that go to support families and you know, promote sex education and grab this graph real quick. Birth control and all that stuff.

B (25:02)

Just while we're here on the topic, just so people know that I'm not like lying about things, just saying shit off the cuff. Here you go, let me pull this up real quick. So this is, we're getting to that in a second. Abortion numbers are at their highest in more than a decade. This is as of March 2024. So a little over a year. You can see, by the way, since what the 90s, abortion rates have been steadily declining even under the evil liberal agenda that Wants to murder children in the womb. They've been dropping, dropping, dropping. They really dropped under Obama. I mean, holy moly, look at that, right? And then in. What is that, 2018, 19, 2020, they go up and then 2023 at their highest. Like that they've been in a long time. And again, like just saying, just say, yeah.

A (25:57)

And that's because people are, you know, taking away easy. Because what Obama did was make birth control easy to access and free. And look at that.

B (26:07)

Yep.

A (26:08)

That's like, that drop is a huge indicator that.

B (26:11)

Because Obamacare. Right. Obamacare was passed.

A (26:14)

I helped out a ton having health care. And I will say, even though I was not a fan of Obama because I was heavily indoctrinated with right wing propaganda, but I was pregnant in 2016 and I'm. So before the election. No, actually 2015, I was pregnant in 2015 and we moved and under. If it was under before Obamacare, I would not have been able to get new health insurance because I moved from my job to not having that job. And pregnancy was considered a pre existing condition. So if Obamacare never would have happened, I would have had to pay for my birth completely out of pocket, which is really expensive.

B (26:59)

It's unreal.

A (27:01)

But because of Obamacare, they could not deny me because I was pregnant. So like, I personally benefited from it, even though I didn't like Obama. Honestly, after going through that, I was like, well, I guess that was a good thing Obama did.

B (27:17)

It's. Anyway, I mean, we're not. This is not an episode about abortion. It's just proving the point, right? That like, it is. You would think that the pro life crowd would be all about, hey, April, what can we do as a society to make sure that you have access to a quality birth experience that you don't go bankrupt because of it? But they do not give a shit about that. They don't. They just do not. Do you remember, I'm not sure if you, if you remember this, April, but when Roe v. Wade was overturned, a lot of these like, big pro lifers were like, you know, now's our chance to show that we care about children after they're born too. We want to show people that we care about this. Well, here we are. And the president that most of them voted for, if not all of them voted for, is literally refusing to pay SNAP benefits to hungry kids. Yeah, that's the thing is like, it's like, it's like they say this stuff, but they don't really mean it because they know that enough time will pass where we will all forget about it.

A (28:14)

Right.

B (28:14)

And the status quo is maintained. Oh, God. To the upside down around here. It just, it goes against everything I was taught in their churches. And they can't see it. They cannot see it. And I don't know. Is. Is this like when they say demonic oppression? Is this a demonic oppression thing? I don't know what the wording is. Is it a psychological phenomena? I don't know how these folks cannot look at what's happening, by the way, in states where abortion is either banned or greatly restricted, infant and maternal mortality rates is up. It's not down. Like, it doesn't help people actually die under this stuff. It's very discouraging.

A (28:59)

No, I agree.

B (29:00)

It's discouraging. So.

C (29:05)

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

B (30:18)

You know the words dominating today's headlines.

C (30:20)

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A (31:27)

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A (31:45)

Before the rise of Trump, I used to wonder how anyone in Germany would have been okay with Hitler rising. Right? Like, I would wonder, like, how could they let that happen? How could they just turn a blind eye, you know, Like, I just was so confused because, like, he's so clearly obviously evil in the hindsight of history. But now I, I don't have to wonder anymore. I see it, I'm like, oh, that's how. And you. They almost use Christianity as a shield. Like, well, I go to church and I pray, so I'm a good person. So I don't actually need to care about all these stupid leftist things because. Exactly, like fake Christian, like, it's so, it is so maddening. But there's a piece of me, say, there's a piece of me that wonders. I mean, I do think a huge part of the reason that they're not seeing it is because of propaganda. They're not, they're not seeing the full story. They can't be because there's, there's, there's still a piece of me that knows, like, they're still good in a lot of these people, which is what is a lot really confusing. Like if you were to meet a lot of them out on the street and not all of them by any means, but like, they're good, kind hearted people and it doesn't make sense that they could support an administration that is so hateful. Then I have to remind myself that indoctrination is a, is a hard thing to get out of, especially when your livelihood depends on it. When your entire community believes all the same things and you just have constant confirmation bias. Yeah, I don't know.

B (33:21)

Let me play devil's advocate here on this because I, how do I say this? I think that the white conservative Christian experiment is really built on a very anemic version of the Christian faith. Meaning there are pastors and leaders out there who think to your point earlier, that if teenagers get in a mass gathering and worship Jesus, that's somehow revival. That's like, that's not a robust Christian theology at all. Like, that, that is a pathetic version of Christian thinking, frankly. And I Wonder, and this is totally a hypothetical that I'm posing to you in the audience. I'm wondering if, if for people like you and me, because we wanted to take our faith incredibly seriously and dive deep and try and really understand what it means to be a Christian. That's what led us out of that world. Because frankly, especially now, being outside of it, looking back, I'm like, wait, you think that God showed up at your highly emotional worship event, but that God is not showing up in the poor and the oppressed like Jesus tells us he would show up? So you're, you're, you're, you're what. This is what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls cheap grace. Right? It's this really cheap version of Christian thinking where you prayed the prayer, you said the right words, you worshiped the right way, and somehow you're God's chosen. That's bringing revival to the country. But nothing is actually changing in the country. Like you're. The poor are not being fed right, the sick are not being healed, the people in prison are not being visited because you're too busy in your echo chamber having these sugar rush worship moments. So I say that because my question is, do you think that for people who really genuinely want to take their faith seriously, it's inevitable that they eventually leave the white evangelical complex? Because frankly, it is so shallow in its theology and teaching, especially once you, once you're out of it and see it.

A (35:14)

I do think that, I think that because think about it. I think we saw a surge. Deconstruction has been the good old days. I know. I mean, that's nothing new. Right. The phrase deconstruction became relatively popular in the pandemic in 2020. For those who don't know, deconstruction is a term that a lot of people use when they start questioning their faith and replacing what was man made and what's actually the teachings of Jesus or, you know, people leave the faith altogether. And I don't blame people who do that because, I mean, I get it.

B (35:48)

And that's how you and I got our start on social media, was through that.

A (35:51)

Right? Right. I started kind of deconstructing out loud because I was all in. And I think, I think the majority of the people that I know that deconstructed, actually everybody that I know that deconstructed did it because they. We were the ones that were so dedicated, like our entire life was for the gospel. We were convinced that we were going to die martyrs one day, that we were going to spread the gospel far and wide. Like our calling in life, no matter what our job was, was first to be a Christian and to spread the gospel, to spread, to try to convert people to Christianity, to save souls. Because we were believers, we believed with our entire being. And I think it makes sense that we are the ones that deconstructed. Because the closer you get to behind the curtain of a lot of these churches, at a certain point, the hypocrisy can no longer be explained away. Like for decades, right? I would see bad men in pastoral roles that get caught in affairs or sexual assault, like really terrible things. Right? And you, you're kind of taught like, oh, it's just a few bad apples, but the tree's still good. It's just a few bad apples, but the tree's still good. And then at a certain point you wake up and realize, no, the tree is frickin rotten, right? And you have been supporting this rotten tree for your whole life. And that's why you deconstruct, because you thought you were being the good person. You thought you were on the right side and that you were doing good. And it is really, it is a debilitating realization when you realize that you were actively causing harm even though you thought you were doing the right thing. That is a very hard pill to swallow. But I do think the people like you and me and, and this huge deconstruction movement that's happened in the last decade, we changed because we wanted to do the right thing. We were willing to swallow that really difficult pillow to repent of the ways that we were complicit in the white evangelical church and to now dedicate our lives to undoing that harm. Because we want to do the right thing. And like, no one wants to wake up and realize you've been the villain.

B (38:09)

Right? Right. That you were the bad, you were the bigot, you were the racist. That's, that is not fun to realize about yourself. I mean, that's why I started the New Evangelicals, right? The organization that now produces this show. I was out of these questions, like, is something, I feel like something is wrong with the trajectory of my faith. And again, it wasn't. There was no agenda to be, to be like, to become a leftist. It was just like, this doesn't feel Christlike to me. I mean, again, I didn't think it was crazy to say, I don't know, guys, it's a pandemic. Wearing a mask makes sense. I'm not sure how that's tyranny because, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. Like, that's literally what I was thinking as I was drumming in my more conservative evangelical church, which, by the way, did Covid really well. They respected all guidelines, so it wasn't a first hand experience. It was online. I'm watching these other worship bros like Sean Foyt be like, faith over fear. You know, this is tyranny. And I'm like, what is tyranny? Wearing a mask during a pandemic. We have no vaccine. We have no. No known cure. Hospitals are overwhelmed. Why wouldn't I want to take every precaution that I. That was available to me to prevent the spread of something that was highly contagious, that could put people in the hospital? This wasn't a. It wasn't. Okay, look, everyone's journey is different, right? I always say you're. You kind of grew up in like this dark basement of evangelical fundamentalism. You finally get above ground, realize, oh my God, there's a huge house of Christian thought. Some people get so messed up by that basement, they run straight out the door, right? And I respect that journey, right? So I'm not talking about, about that. What I'm saying is like, for me, it was always about being faithful to the gospel. It was always about being faithful to Jesus. It was always being faithful to the teachings of scripture. That's what led me out of the basement, is I couldn't reconcile being taught about, like, you know, the importance of sexual purity and then have those same Sunday school teachers lambast me on Facebook because I couldn't get behind the guy who was bragging about grabbing women and on the COVID of Playboy, like, okay, who. Who betrayed the values? In this case, who. Whose values were betrayed? Now obviously on that path, I rethought a lot of my sexual ethics and, you know, queer inclusion for sure. But the motivation was. Has always been the same. How do I love God and love my neighbor? How do I stay committed to truth? How do I change my mind when needed? How do I repent when I've done wrong? These are all very evangelical principles that I was taught so that. I'm with you, April. Like, it is wild. And I do think, and I haven't thought about this in a while because, you know, deconstruction feels so long ago now for so many of us. But a lot of the people when this deconstruction explosion happened, they were the all in people. They were the ones, including me, that were the all in volunteers that were planting churches, that were doing the worship thing, that were reading our Bible every day. That were hungry for truth. And I think, you know, in that journey, a lot of us walked out of the basement because we had to find a better path forward in our faith, which, you know, thankfully now that's why tne exists and we have T and E connect, all that stuff. But my gosh, like, I think a lot of the people still in that space are, as the apostle Paul says on, on, on milk. Still they have not graduated to meet. Right. They're just little spiritual children with their temper tantrums who are self centered, egotistical, and who want what they want at the expense of their neighbor.

A (41:38)

I know, I feel you. It always makes me laugh too, when you see all these people that. Because to be clear, evangelicals started a war against deconstruction. They, they, they, they still do. They still demonize.

B (41:51)

They still do.

A (41:53)

But I remember I would always make me laugh when they were like, oh, people only deconstruct because they want to have sex. Yeah, I was married in my monogamous marriage. Same the so monogamous, like when I deconstructed and like, I don't like. What do you mean? What do you mean? I did this because I wanted to have sex. Like, no, I wanted to have sex. I could have just stayed evangelical like right past her.

B (42:17)

Exactly, exactly. Like I deconstructed first so I can sin more. How? What, What? My marriage has only gotten better.

A (42:26)

Right. Is the sinful lifestyle in the room with us.

B (42:29)

This is one of the books that we, that, that were written about us. The Deconstruction of Christianity by Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. These two drive me wild. This book is, I mean, you know, feel free to read it. I took a lot of notes. It's, it's kind of, I think, terrible, but I'm also biased, you know, but yeah, I mean, there, there was. Anyway, there was a whole war. Look, if you have no clue what we're talking about, go to the new, the New Evangelicals podcast and go back like a couple hundred episodes. You'll hear, you'll hear all about it. But this was the thing that launched a lot of us into this world of critiquing Christian nationalism because we knew what was coming, right? We knew the militancy, we knew the extremism, the fundamentalism, the belief that God has given these particular Christians a divine mandate to take back the country. We saw that get intertwined with this fascist ideology of Maga and Trump to then become Christian fascism. And it's been really a journey watching it happen in front of our Very eyes and become worse than we thought, unfortunately.

A (43:30)

Yeah, well, speaking of fascism, you want to go through this list and explain where this list comes from?

B (43:35)

This was the main point of our show, but whatever. It's all right.

A (43:41)

We reserve the right to go on occasional tangents.

B (43:44)

Honestly, not that this is, like, the world's biggest motivation, but I would love to hear from the audience, both in the YouTube comments and also from our podcast audience. You can DM us on the Tim April show or email us. I would love to know if you guys enjoy just April and I talking as friends, because I love it. I love. I mean, me and April talk all the time. Anyway. I love talking to you on air as just two friends shooting the shit. I think it's great. But I'm not sure if that translates to the audience, so let us know in the comments. It's always good to know.

A (44:13)

Is there a way to make this a little bigger?

B (44:15)

Fine. Is that better? Only because you're sick. That's the only reason I'm doing this.

C (44:20)

Thank you.

A (44:21)

Thank you. I know.

B (44:22)

So. So one of the questions I wanted to ask April, you know, or kind of go through, was we hear a lot about this concept of fascism. Fascism is here. Then you hear people on the right, oh, they're using fascism like a boogeyman. Oh, you know, everyone's a Nazi. We hate it. Okay? This document, this poster is in the US Holocaust Museum, okay? And it says, the early warning signs of fascism. There are about 12 of these statements. I want to read them kind of one by one. April, I have not showed you this till now, and. And I want you to. I want you to think if any of this stuff rings true today regarding what's happening, okay? And I think it's really important, because fascist movements can happen. They are happening, and we have to be able to recognize the signs of them because they really do a lot of damage to our neighbors. They are really focused on scapegoating minorities and, frankly, doing a lot of hell on earth kind of behavior towards them. So here are a few statements. We'll go through them one by one. Early warning signs of fascism. The first one, powerful and continuing nationalism.

A (45:34)

Yeah. So the Oxford Dictionary defines nationalism as identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

B (45:46)

Does that sound familiar at all?

A (45:49)

It does, which is so interesting to me, the amount of people, because one of Trump's slogans for a while was America First.

B (45:56)

Yes.

A (45:56)

Right.

B (45:57)

Yes.

A (45:57)

And so a lot of people that supported him were America first, which is a sign of nationalism. Right. To the detriment of other nations. Which is why it's so weird to me that MAGA is not more mad about him bailing out Argentina.

B (46:09)

We'll get to that. I think there's a reason why. Also, there is a difference between patriotism and nationalism. To be clear. Okay, no one's saying you can't be proud of your country, but we have to understand that, like the American exceptionalism mantra, it's propaganda. We are not exceptional unless it comes to, you know, the military industrial complex and how many arms we export around the world. I guess in that case we are. But I wouldn't be. I wouldn't be proud of that necessarily.

A (46:32)

Yeah, right. Well, and patriotism is wanting your. Your country to be the best that it can so that like, you're allowed to critique your nation and be a patriot. Like if you're trying to make your country better for everyone, that is patriotism or nationalism is wanting to make your country better for one group of people.

B (46:48)

That's right. Number two, disdain for human rights. Have we seen ice lately? Have we seen what's going on? Have we seen our government sniping boats, Venezuelan boats out of the water with no due process, just dropping bombs on them claiming that they're drug cartels with no evidence? I mean, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, our government deported him to el. An El Salvadorian prison. He was brought back and they're still going after him. We could be here all day just on this point alone. The disdain for human rights under this administration is unprecedented. I mean, we are literally taking military helicopters and dropping ice out of them in Chicago to zip tie children, for crying out loud. I mean, are we kidding or Jesus?

A (47:41)

The number three is identification of enemies as a unifying cause. I mean, go watch Charlie Kirk's memorial service. That this number three was all over that they killed Charlie. The left is violent. Like they have made an enemy. You know, Trump. Didn't Trump say that immigrants were like poisoning?

B (48:00)

Yes. Society. Yes. He echoed sentiments from Hitler. I mean, Hitler echoed sentiment, said something very similar about the Jews. Not to mention trans people. Right. CRT woke, which is an inappropriated term from black culture. DEI hires like, like feminist. Yeah, feminists. The invasion at the border there is. The identification of enemies as a unifying cause is like the foundation of what MAGA is built on. Right. Trump has even said he hates the Democrats. I hate them. I hate them so much. I don't love my opponents. I hate my opponents. Right. This, they, this is a unifying cause for them. As clear as that.

A (48:38)

Yep.

B (48:39)

Okay. Number four.

A (48:40)

Number four, supremacy of the military, which we. He's literally. Trump has sent the United States military on our own cities and countries. Or not countries, cities and states. I'm tired.

C (48:59)

Yes.

B (48:59)

And who remembers that mind blowing military parade?

A (49:03)

Oh, my gosh.

B (49:06)

But for real. Yes. I mean, Pete Hegseth gathering all the generals and talking to them like there's some kind of GI Joes out of a fictional, you know, cartoon episode or something. Right. It's all about, again, there's a huge push about the supremacy of the military. Trump is sending troops and turning them on US Citizens. And again, this is why we can't normalize this stuff. That is not normal. And when that's happened in history, it's an exception to the rule, not the norm. Now we just, we expect it. We expect to see the military in Chicago or in la. You're not going to see them in Mississippi. You're not going to see them in Alabama. You're going to see them in blue.

A (49:43)

Cities, which is ironic because a lot of times red states actually have more violent crime than blue states.

C (49:51)

Yep.

B (49:52)

Four, rampant sexism.

A (49:56)

Hello. I mean, just look at that Doug Wilson interview. Who is Pete Hegseth's pastor.

B (50:03)

Right. They want women's suffrage repealed. Trump sexually assaults women. I mean, I don't know, like how much. I don't know how else to say it. They don't want women anywhere near the government ultimately, don't get me wrong, but there are women now in the government. But if Christian nationalists get their way, there will be none. Long term. It will be a white male led institution where women are at home raising children as God intended while the men go do the hard work.

A (50:32)

Right. And thankfully there are still women in Congress at this point. But look at the fringe of this movement. They want to undo that.

B (50:41)

Absolutely. What number are we on? Is this number five? 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6.

A (50:46)

So number six is controlled mass media.

B (50:49)

Oh my God.

A (50:50)

So there is still some freedom of the press at this point. But look at what the Pentagon just. Pentagon just did. They kicked out anyone that wouldn't sign an agreement that to only report what the Pentagon wants them to report. So now they just have like, like Mike Lindell. I don't like some weird right wing.

B (51:08)

It's like oan. It's Mike Lindell. I think Benny Johnson's in there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how about Jimmy Kimmel, right. The FCC chair threatening ABC's parent company to not push their deal through if Jimmy Kimmel was still on the air.

A (51:22)

So again, there might be some way they undid.

B (51:26)

Yes, there might be some moderates out there who are like, well, Tim, it's not full control yet. That's the point though. They're trying to. Trump is suing news organizations and bringing them to court to settle.

A (51:38)

Right. And these are warning signs.

B (51:40)

These are warning signs.

A (51:41)

So there are definitely hints of this already happening. Where did you say this comes from?

B (51:46)

This is from the U.S. holocaust Museum.

A (51:49)

Okay. I think they would know a thing or two about fascism.

B (51:53)

You would think, again, like, this is important stuff. Think about, about right wing media and how it became the megaphone for Trump. I mean, Turning Point USA had Trump at their rallies all the time. Right, Right. Trump is promoted 24, 7, 365 on Fox News on OANN. This is the beginning. We want to stop it now because in Trump's world, right, the mainstream media, which is the enemy of the people according to Trump, doesn't exist or is controlled by the Trump White House. And you don't want that, right? You don't want propaganda like that. You need a free press. It is a key staple of democracy.

A (52:29)

I mean, just look at an example of all of the Trump supporters right now that don't know really what's going on because they only watch Fox News or Newsmax or other right wing controlled media. That is just straight propaganda. And yes, I know, Devil's advocate, you can argue that all form of mass media is some form of propaganda, that everyone has some sort of agenda. But there is one side that clearly ignores facts like, yes, and we need.

B (52:59)

To say that especially mainstream media, your ABC CNNs, you know, they're bought by like massive corporations that have an incentive to promote the Trump regime. Like, it's only, it's only three or four companies that own like almost all of the mainstream media sources. There are graphs on this. You know, it's like Time Warner, Comcast, and there's like one or two more. They control all of this stuff. So even now we can say in, in a way that a lot of our media is, I think, way too wimpy on calling this stuff out, which you and I have talked about a lot, April. You know, like, there's no backbone here. And it's very.

A (53:32)

Right. And I haven't seen, I mean, granted, I kind of stopped watching a lot of mainstream news stations just because it's. I know, I know too much already, but I haven't seen places like CNN really talking like, I feel like they're being way too casual about how everything.

B (53:50)

Is way too casual. I agree. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7. Obsession with national security.

A (54:01)

Yeah.

B (54:02)

Do we need, do we need to secure the border? Yeah, secure the border. We, we're being invaded. It's an invasion. Right. And now we're starting to see hints of, you know, radical Islam rhetoric popping back up. I saw Alex talking about that.

A (54:14)

Yeah, I saw, Yeah, I saw that today.

B (54:16)

So dumb.

A (54:17)

Where, where is that coming from? Is it just because of Mamdani and New York?

B (54:21)

I think Mamdani, but also they, they, they try and point to things happening in Africa and use that as propaganda to prove that there's like a militant Islam extremism happening worldwide. I, I, there's a whole episode we can do on that. Long story short, in some of these countries, the government's like, actually, it's not religiously motivated. They're, we're having just a, a big issue with like coups and security, like actual real violence, but dependent all on just extreme Muslims. Targeting Christians and making it a religious war is very disingenuous. But again, a different discussion for a different time. But we are seeing that kind of rhetoric start to pop. Its, you know, its head back up. I think Ali Sucky did some poll and most of her followers are mostly concerned about, about the rise of radical Islam. To me, why again, who formed the Capitol building? Was it a bunch of people with ISIS flags or was it people with Christian flags and Bibles and praying to Jesus, thanking him for the opportunity? That that's how blind they are. Like, they are so blind to the Christian extremism happening in America that they really think the threat is somewhere out there. Muslims are, I think, 2% of the U.S. population.

A (55:27)

I just googled it and it says that they make up. This is the AI overview on Google.

B (55:34)

Let's see how accurate I am. Go ahead.

A (55:36)

It says 1.1%.

B (55:38)

I'm sorry, I was 100% over.

A (55:41)

Over. Really? They're really invading us. They haven't even cracked one and a half percent.

B (55:47)

But that goes back to the other point in fascism. Right. Our warning signs, identification of enemies as a unifying cause. Oh, it's the Muslims now that we have to be afraid of. Right. Oh, it's the trans people. Right. There's always a new enemy that gets cycled that, that we have to be afraid of. Including the 1% of the population that is Muslim that is peaceful and that has a constitutional right to exercise their freedom of religion.

A (56:14)

Right. It might be closer to 2% because that might have been an older one. I don't know. I hate the AI overview sometimes because it's never. Oh wait, no. Pew research from June of this year says Muslims make up about 1% of the adult population. So nevermind.

B (56:29)

In the way. I mean I've tracked Mark Driscoll on this. Alvis Ducky. The way they talk about it again, you would think right. Other everywhere these, these violent people. But that's what they do. Trans people are like 1.1%. Why are we talking about about all 10 trans athletes in the NAACP? Why? Because this is how fascism works. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause. It doesn't matter if they're in the majority or not. Okay, this one is big. I think number, this is number eight or nine. Whatever religion and government intertwined. Do we need to explain that further? Yeah.

A (57:06)

Trump executive order. He made an anti Christian bias task force. He's welcomed worship into the White House. How many worship. Look at all the worship leaders that opened. Charlie Kirk state sponsored memorial service.

B (57:20)

100. Yeah. We could be. This is what we do most of our day is track Christian.

A (57:24)

Yeah. That's our, that's our thing. So if you watch this and you don't know that.

B (57:29)

Yeah.

A (57:29)

You've not been actually listening.

B (57:30)

Yeah, yeah. Stop, stop being distracted and pay attention. Okay, next one. Corporate power protected. Absolutely.

A (57:39)

Oh yeah.

B (57:40)

Why do you think Mark Zuckerberg came out right.

A (57:42)

Yeah.

B (57:43)

When Trump got elected. We're going back to our roots of free speech. Oh, give me a break, Mark. Give me a break. We know what this is. You want your power protected. You're going to cozy up to Trump. By the way Apple has done this T mobile all the. If you look at the so called donors of the, of the brand new Trump Ballroom, it's all massive corporations. Right. There is a handshake going on here of hey, we'll donate, you protect our interests. This is a huge piece of it.

A (58:08)

Which brings us like, I won't say low key mad about the ballroom because there's like, there's way, there's much bigger things to be actually mad about. But I'm, I'm, I'm very annoyed as a sentimental person that he's destroying part of the White House and putting in a tacky ass ballroom for what? Like I never, I've never heard a single person conservative or progressive on any side of a political spectrum been like, you know what? Our country needs a ballroom.

B (58:42)

Right. What a waste. Again, people are, are starving in America and here we are.

A (58:48)

Also. He could easily ask those people to fund the snap that's going to run out and this government shutdown. I think a lot of people would prefer food and not going hungry at night than having some fancy schmancy ballroom.

B (59:03)

That nobody it's pay to play, right? It's all backhanded. You scratch your back, I'll scratch mine.

C (59:13)

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, T and E Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen, or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement. Hi, my name is Mary and I'm from Nashville, Tennessee and I'm a monthly donor to the New Evangelicals. I'm really thankful for the work they're doing and I think that there is a really important job to continue. That's why I offer my support. Between the pandemic, Donald Trump, the dehumanization of the LGBTQ community, I just think we really need to reevaluate what we're doing as a church, as evangelicals, as new evangelicals. So, yeah, glad to be a part of this community and love the work.

B (60:44)

Which brings us to the next point of the early warning signs of fascism. Labor power suppressed. Absolutely. Trump is not a fan of. Of unions. He's not a fan of. Of labor rights. He's not a fan of raising minimum wage. Right. For the sake of the working class. Even though he talks like he cares about the working class, he does not give a shit about the working class. Just look at how he treated his own employees under his Trump brand. Look at how he didn't pay immigrants or certain contractors. There's all kinds of lawsuits that have been tied up in court for. For years because of this.

A (61:17)

Okay, well, that's nothing necessarily new. Like as a Republican, have historically been against unions.

B (61:25)

Right. Which is why people have been writing about fascism.

A (61:27)

I've known about it. Yeah.

B (61:28)

No, for real. And this is why there have been books written way before any of us about the early warning signs of fascism in America. Right. Because these are, this is what we see. The next one I think is really important. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts. I mean, rfk, anyone? Anti Vax movement. Right. There is this idea of like these elites can't tell you how to live. It's a disdain for intellectualism. It's, it's a, it's a disdain for the scientific process. It's, it's a disdain for information and for checks and balances. Because fascism is not concerned about checks and balances. It wants power and it hates intellectuals who expose them. It hates the intellectualism that says, you know, this is good for society. We can tell you what you might need. It hates that. And I think RFK is such a great example. The fact that we are living in a time when vaccine skepticism is at an all time high. The measles are making a comeback because of the bullcrap that RFK espouses and the decisions that he's made as the health. Is it Secretary of Health? Is that his official title? It's really, it's really unbelievable.

A (62:32)

Well, and as, and as far as the arts go, you have Donald Trump who took over the Kennedy center. And I mean this is nothing new, but they have railed against Hollywood for decades, forever. That Hollywood is just a bunch of. And like there's definitely some bad people in Hollywood. I mean, what's his face?

B (62:53)

Harvey Weinstein.

A (62:54)

Yes, Harvey Weinstein. Like there's, there's definitely. They're not perfect by any means, but there is this general demonization of anything that is secular art.

B (63:06)

That's right.

A (63:06)

That it's, that it's of Satan that say Satan runs Hollywood. I mean we talked about this, but when the fires happened in Los Angeles earlier this year and a lot of people were saying, well that's, that was God's judgment. Because Hollywood, like that is, that is something that is also, also happening because the arts, I mean there's a lot of movies that are really meaningful and that. And think of snl and I remember reading history books too that talked about fascism. And one really great way to fight fascism is satire and using comedy to basically mock the crap out of them. Because if you think about it, fascists in general and Nazis, they're not necessarily, they're. You can't be a highly intelligent person and think that certain groups of humans are subhuman.

B (63:58)

Right, right.

A (63:59)

Like you have to have a form of anti intellectualism to even believe in that stuff. So making fun of them and mocking them, because a lot of them are stupid. And I do think that is one silver lining that we have in this Trump administration is that he didn't. He kind of put a bunch of his buddies in there, and they're not necessarily these brilliant. I don't think Trump is a brilliant mind. And I will say one other silver lining that we have is that I don't believe Trump is a true believer in any of this stuff. I think Trump will do whatever it is. I think if tomorrow. If he woke up tomorrow and realized and thought, you know, it would benefit me and I would make more money if I switched to being progressive, he would do that. So I think, like, as opposed to. That is the one, I think biggest difference between this MAGA movement with Trump and the Nazis and Hitler is that Trump's not a true believer.

B (64:53)

Right.

A (64:54)

In anything.

B (64:55)

Right. That's a good point. Yeah. And also, we could just this point about disdain for intellectuals in the arts. I mean, look at all the defunding of science research. We now are in a place where scientists are fleeing the U.S. right? So this is, again, another warning sign of fascism. Like, we're not. I say this because it may be this is a personal insecurity, but I always fear that people think that we're not grounded in, like, data or reality and that we're just making stuff up for the sake of trying to grift people, which I know isn't true. People don't really think that, but that's, like, the inner voice in my head, and that's why we want to share this stuff. Like, we're not making this stuff up there. People who have studied fascist movements have created frameworks for us to look at, to realize when that's taking over or when that's a problem in the country that we live in. And right now, fascism is not only on the rise, it is here in our government. Okay, the next one. Which, again, this fits. Tell me, friends listening, if this sounds familiar. Obsession with crime and punishment, of course.

A (65:54)

Except for Trump's crime.

B (65:55)

Exactly. I was just a caveat. Unless it's the guy. Unless it's Trump's friends. Right? I mean, he pardoned the January 6th insurrectionist.

A (66:01)

Unless it's right.

B (66:02)

Yeah, exactly. But these are just kind of like broad ideals. Next one, rampant cronyism and corruption. I mean, we could be here all day talking about Trump is suing his own government for $250 million. Right. We have all these backhanded deals happening. We have people Donating to get. I mean, there's all kinds of things. How about Doge Elon Musk being in charge, a billionaire in charge of cutting government waste which only really enriched his own government contracts.

A (66:29)

Like the, the, the corruption of accepting that, like, $4 billion jet.

B (66:34)

Yes.

A (66:35)

From another country.

B (66:37)

Yes. Yeah.

A (66:39)

The definition of cornyism, for those who don't know is the appointment of friends and associates to positions of authority without proper regard to their qualifications. How many of Trump's cabinet appointees actually have. Are. Actually are qualified.

B (66:54)

Right. No, no. April. April. Meritocracy. Meritocracy. We believe in a meritocracy now. No more dei. This is a meritocracy. Meritocracy.

A (67:05)

Yeah.

B (67:06)

Also, his own kids being in the White House having positions like. It is obvious, right, that Trump is.

A (67:13)

Picking people who are in the White House.

B (67:15)

What's up?

A (67:17)

His kids have positions in the White House.

B (67:18)

And the first, his first Trump. His first.

A (67:20)

I knew the first one. I didn't know.

B (67:22)

Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure if Jared or any of them have actual positions now, but they did in the first one. That was a major issue for sure.

A (67:32)

I don't think they do this round.

B (67:34)

But yeah, I think a lot of them kind of walked away, but they, they still benefit, you know. But yeah, to your point, a lot of his friends are, Are, are in these cabinet positions. In fact, we have the most billionaires ever in the, in the White House cabinet, cabinet positions that we've ever had. You're telling me that there's no interest going on, that there are no deals that benefit these people going on? It's ridiculous. Did you find the answer to your question?

A (68:00)

Huh? I was looking it up. Interesting though. This is a sidebar. Trump's youngest son, Baron, helped devise the podcast heavy campaign strategy that helped win the young male voters.

B (68:12)

I have heard that before. That's interesting. Okay, last one. Then we'll be done. Fraudulent elections. Now, I want to be really clear with this. I know that there were some people in left wing spaces who were insisting that this past election was fraudulent. And while certainly I put nothing past the Trump regime, I mean nothing, I have yet to see real hard evidence of such a thing happening. So I am not going to play that and be like, hey, it definitely was rigged. However. However, given the fact that they're talking about Trump's third term, okay, I would not put anything past these people to rig elections in their favor. That's what I will say.

A (68:57)

Well, and I, I'll also say I do think that point works in the 2020 election where they claimed it was fraudulent even though it wasn't and tried to overturn it.

B (69:09)

Yes, exactly, exactly. Like, we shared this list because we want you to see that it's happening now. Like, these are the tell. This is from the US Holocaust Museum. People who have studied the Holocaust, people who have studied fascist movements. Put this list together and Trump hits like pretty much every single one in one way or another. Different levels of intensity. Right. But like, we are clearly on that path to just a straight up fascist takeover in America. I would argue a lot of it's already been successful Project 2025, you know, the right wing Christo fascists who were in the government, Paula White, et cetera. But here we are like, it is happening. It's happening.

A (69:57)

Yeah, well, and I think it just shows too that we don't, when we use the term fascist Christian nationalists, like, we are not doing it flippantly right there. There's actual things that are happening and have happened that are worthy of a label like that. It's, it's different than when right wing people just call us all communists and Marxists and anarchists and whatever label they want to throw at us because. And they do. So, yeah, antifa. They. Well, we are anti fascist, which is what antifa means. But they've made it this big boogeyman that actually has no meaning anymore.

B (70:33)

Zero.

A (70:34)

But yeah. So we just wanted to show that, hey, we're not being hyperbolic when we, when we say that fascism is here or is at least gaining ground.

B (70:47)

I think that it's really important in an age of propaganda to be as truth based as possible. Right. And so whenever you're listening to the show, whenever you hear us talking about things, just know that while certainly we can be wrong, and we're going to be wrong, we're not going to get everything a hundred percent right. And whenever we're made aware of that, we want to be able to change. But just know that we are doing our best to give you guys factual source based, you know, perspectives that are rooted somewhere. Now, you might disagree with the premise, that's fine. But we're not just making things up out of thin air. We're not just dropping things. The term fascist because it's popular to do. Again, I don't know how many of you have listened to the new Evangelicals podcast or how many have read April's book, but like, we've been doing this for a couple of years now and we've had the privilege like a decade. Yeah, well, I Meant publicly, you know, like. Yeah, like on the Internet. You know, we've been doing. I mean, I think I'm almost. Wow. I'll be five years in. In December. That's when TNE was formed, in December 2020. But, you know, in that time, I just had the privilege and honor to talk to the leading scholars on these topics. So when we're talking, it comes from somewhere. We're not just two talking heads who want to scare you into trusting us as, like, the new authorities. Absolutely not. But we do believe that April and I have a very unique perspective maybe to offer because not only do we have the experience of growing up in high control evangelical fundamentalism, we also came out of it and have studied and have learned from the scholars on the historical side. So we're kind of able to blend both the education and the experience.

A (72:27)

Yeah, we can, we can explain the data of, you know, how this is happening and where this is coming from and who these people are. And then we can also peel back the curtain, be like, this is what they're thinking and why they're doing it this way and what they've been taught. Because we were taught that as well.

B (72:42)

Yeah, exactly. Well, so much for a short show.

A (72:46)

I know, I know. I'm gonna go way down after this.

B (72:51)

Well, the big end here, friends. Thank you so much for being here. It means the world. Please make sure to give this video a like. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you're listening on podcasts, please give the show a rating and a review. Hey, if you're looking for a better path forward in faith, the new evangelicals is the place to go. We have our own private community space called TNE Connect. You can get it either on an app or on your web browser.

A (73:11)

You can.

B (73:11)

It's totally free to join and it's a great place to meet like minded people and get access to free resources helping you find a better path forward in your faith. If you want to support the work that we're doing as a nonprofit, we rely on the generosity of people to donate. We offer nothing on the timapril show or at TNE behind a paywall. Everything we do is completely paywall free because we're supported by the generosity of people like you. So please consider becoming a monthly donor thenewevangelicals.com support to do that. All right, well, with that being said, pretty good show, April. We got through it.

A (73:44)

Cheerio.

B (73:46)

Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

A (73:47)

And I'm April. A joy. See ya.

B (73:50)

Bye.