The Tim & April Show Episode 64 Summary:

"MAGA Pastors Have the WORST Arguments for Christian Nationalism"

Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April A Joy (The New Evangelicals)

Episode Overview

In this energetic and critique-driven episode, Tim and April engage with a recent panel discussion featuring four MAGA-aligned megachurch pastors—Josh Howerton, Russell Johnson, Ryan Visconti, and Josh McPherson. The pastors gather to defend Christian nationalism, which Tim and April purposefully unravel, exposing faulty reasoning, historical revisionism, and manipulative rhetoric. The hosts respond in real-time, bringing in their own knowledge, research, and lived experience at the intersection of faith, justice, and inclusive politics.

Main Themes

• Defining Christian Nationalism
  The episode challenges both the pastors’ and the wider evangelical movement’s attempt to sanitize or blur what Christian nationalism actually is, calling attention to how the term is coopted, diluted, and weaponized.

• Faith, Power, and Public Policy
  A deep dive into how evangelical leaders merge American exceptionalism with a narrow, often exclusionary version of Christianity, using scripture and revisionist history to justify political dominance.

• Harm of MAGA Christianity
  The hosts highlight the real-world consequences for marginalized groups when nationalist faith is legislated—pointing out its selective morality and systemic harm.

• History, Hypocrisy, and Biblical Literalism
  Examination of white evangelicalism’s self-flattering reading of history, selective use of scripture, and hand-waving away of their complicity in injustice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Framing the Reaction (03:12–06:53)

• Meet the Pastors Under Review:
  The pastors’ denominations and backgrounds—often more charismatic/independent than their mainline labels suggest—place them at the center of the Christian nationalist movement. Notably, Howerton’s prior viral misogynistic comments are referenced for context (06:10–06:53).

II. False Definitions & Bad Faith Arguments (08:01–15:25)

• Misrepresentation of Christian Nationalism’s Critics:
  The pastors accuse others of seeing Christian nationalism as “idol worship” but straw-man the critique—ignoring systemic critiques and focusing only on literal bowing to statues.
• April’s Clarity:
  "It was never portrayed to me... that an idol is something you wake up in the morning and bow down to. So, the idea that they haven't made Trump or America an idol because they don't bow down to worship it is just so disingenuous and honestly, stupid." [14:18]
• Contradictory Defensiveness:
  Tim and April note the hypocrisy, referencing the real golden Trump statue at CPAC and megachurch worship that platformed Trump as God’s anointed (15:24).

III. Evangelical Historical Revisionism (17:26–23:46)

• Selective Memory:
  Russell Johnson frames Christianity as ending slavery and racism in America—ignoring white Christian support for slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation.
• Tim’s Sharp Retort:
  "It was not the white Christians who were fighting to end slavery. We had a literal civil war. The Southern Baptist Convention, the denomination that Josh Howerton is apparently part of, split over the right to own other people." [17:48]
• April’s Take on Whitewashing:
  “The rewriting of history... literally keeps people inside where you think Christians have only ever done good and have only ever been on the right side of history.” [18:22]
• Citing Real Opposition:
  Tim: “MLK fought white evangelicals tooth and nail. And even today, Charlie Kirk did a whole segment saying we shouldn't celebrate [him] anymore.” [23:04]

IV. The Real Tenets of Christian Nationalism (27:17–29:42)

• The Five-Point Test:
  Tim lays out the actual sociological markers of Christian nationalism, including support for America as a declared Christian nation, laws based in Christian values, “dominion” theology, and conflation of Christianity with “true Americanness” (27:17).
• April Observes:
  The version of “Christianity” the pastors mean is a narrow U.S. evangelicalism, focused on culture wars, not Jesus' teachings of inclusion and compassion.

V. The Patriotism/Nationalism Sleight of Hand (30:06–33:29)

• Equating Patriotism and Christian Nationalism:
  The pastors conflate love of country with nationalism to deflect critiques.
  • April: “They often conflate patriotism as nationalism... I also love my nation... and so I want it to be better for all people.”

VI. Dangerous Selective Morality (38:55–40:04)

• Focusing on Culture Wars, Ignoring Justice:
  Issues prioritized are abortion, LGBTQ+ rights, and immigration, never economic justice, healthcare, or systemic poverty.
  • “Their life does not, is not affected at all by trans people having healthcare access. That's what we're talking about here.” [45:11]

VII. Exclusion, Superiority, and “Biblical Morality” (49:38–55:54)

• Limited Morality:
  Christian nationalism is presented as the only route to a “good” society, but April exposes the closed circle of who benefits (“heaven on earth for whom?”)—which is white, straight, conservative Christians.
• Tim’s Constitution Rebuttal:
  The Constitution is a secular document protecting all, not just Christians. “If the founders were as militant as these four men make it out to be, it would obviously be all over our Constitution.” [59:44]

VIII. Hypocrisy on Morals & Power (62:07–66:44)

• Ignoring Trump’s Contradictions:
  April: “Who have they made their freaking champion right now? A serial adulterer named Donald Trump... They are hypocrites. So even in their own moral framework, they don't follow it.” [62:57]
• Co-opting Civil Religion:
  Tim outlines how images like Moses/statues in Congress are late additions (1950s) during a surge of propagandistic “Judeo-Christian” rhetoric.

IX. Harm, Empathy, and Selective Justice (71:08–73:14)

• Empathy Is Demonized:
  April describes how empathy is seen as a threat because it undermines punitive, dogmatic policies: “Empathy is a dogma killer. And that's why they go hard against it.” [72:21]
• Real-World Pain:
  Tim and April show that policies—on abortion, immigration, healthcare—imposed by Christian nationalists cause active harm, particularly for marginalized groups.

X. Theonomy and Dominionism: How Literal? (81:32–85:08)

• Hosts Note: The difference between “theonomy” (Old Testament law as U.S. law) and the pastors’ version is semantic—they both want Christian power in government, just disagree on the details.
  • “If you open the door for them, you open the door for the theonomist. You open the door for the more extremists.” [85:39]

XI. Nationalism, Globalism, and False Choices (104:28–106:05)

• Binary Fallacies:
  Only three choices are presented: tribalism, nationalism, or globalism.
  April: “Those are not the only options. It's so stupid.” [106:10]

XII. American Exceptionalism & Systemic Problems (112:32–120:21)

• American Success: A Myth:
  Tim debunks notions of American superiority using health, welfare, and incarceration data (114:32).
  • “We have some of the highest gun mortality rates... our health care results are terrible... This is why I hate nationalism, because it's so ignorant.”
• On Immigration:
  April corrects false claims about “open borders” or dangerous immigrants, showing most are nonviolent and contribute to society.

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• April on Idolatry:
  "The idea that they haven't made Trump or America an idol because they don't bow down to worship it is just so disingenuous and honestly, stupid." [14:18]
• Tim on History:
  “It was not the white Christians who were fighting to end slavery. The SBC... split over the right to own other people.” [17:48]
• April on Whitewashing:
  “The rewriting of history... is how you're able to believe this American exceptionalism idea that's tied in with Christianity.” [18:22]
• April on Christian Nationalism's Harm:
  “It is not about their morality... They want a person that will give them power so they can legislate it and take control to bring their quote, unquote 'heaven on earth' that only benefits them.” [64:13]
• Tim on the Constitution:
  "The Constitution is an intentionally secular document to protect the rights of all of its citizens, even ones who want to be free from the influence of the church." [59:44]
• April on Empathy:
  “Empathy is a dogma killer... because if you have an ounce of empathy for someone who is different than you, which I think we all should [as followers of Christ]... then you know these men are full of shit.” [72:21]
• Tim on Selective Outrage:
  "It's wild to see what they think is no big deal and what they think is a huge mountain... if trans people get gender affirming care and get accepted into society." [79:32]
• Tim on False Choices:
  “What a freaking false choice.” [106:05]
• April on Systemic Problems:
  “The vast majority of people who are undocumented in this country are not violent at all. In fact, a lot of them have been here for decades and are working and... helping our economy. Those people should have a path to citizenship.” [117:43]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:53] – Panel context, prior controversies, and intro to pastors
• [14:18] – April responds to idolatry strawman
• [17:48]-[18:22] – White evangelical history and selective memory
• [27:17] – Tim explains sociological test for Christian nationalism
• [45:11] – Narrow policy focus: "Their life does not, is not affected at all by trans people having healthcare access..."
• [64:13] – April on how power, not morality, is the endgame
• [71:08]-[73:14] – Empathy, dogma, and supporting marginalized people
• [104:28] – Nationalism as “third way;” globalism vs. tribalism fallacy
• [114:32] – Data-driven critique of American healthcare and outcomes
• [117:43] – Immigration realities and disinformation

Tone & Language

• Direct, irreverent, and unsparing in challenging hypocrisy and misinformation
• Honest and passionate, at times angry, especially as the hosts highlight injustices or gaslighting
• Educational and accessible even for non-specialists; explainers break down history and law
• Laced with humor and sarcasm, especially when mocking poor arguments or "own goals"

Conclusion

This episode offers a thorough, no-holds-barred takedown of Christian nationalist rhetoric as perpetuated by MAGA pastors. Tim and April meticulously identify manipulative arguments, historical distortions, and the tangible harms created by merging faith with right-wing politics. They provide listeners not just with critique, but facts, context, and an alternative Christian vision rooted in justice, empathy, and inclusion—making this a standout resource for anyone confronting Christian nationalism in faith or public life.