65. Plot Twist: Christian Persecution from the Trump Administration?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Plot Twist: Christian Persecution from the Trump Administration?"

The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals) — Episode 65

Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the unexpected rise in Christian persecution—not from left-leaning secularism, but from within a Trump-led, Christian nationalist sphere. Tim and April analyze how right-wing policies, especially those targeting immigrants and religious minorities, undermine the very Christians who were taught to fear such persecution from outsiders. The episode also critically examines Trump's connection to the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, media hypocrisy, and the resistance efforts of progressive Christian communities. Lighter fare includes a "Weird Christian Bleep" segment that pokes fun at strange religious social media content.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Current Events & Setting the Stage

• Live Show Banter: Tim and April joke about podcast logistics and share personal anecdotes about their chaotic schedules.
• Shifted Broadcast Schedule: Upcoming broadcasts are adjusted for Thanksgiving, with a lighter, fun prerecorded episode planned. (07:34)

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2. Polls & Media Hypocrisy

[09:24]

• Trump’s Plummeting Approval: Fox News poll shows Trump at a second-term low approval (41%), with high disapproval on economy, foreign policy, tariffs, and healthcare—even among right-leaning respondents.
• Fox News Spin: Hosts play a Fox & Friends clip, highlighting conservative pundits' attempts to minimize bad economic news for Trump.
• Media Double Standards: Tim and April contrast Trump's supporters' defenses with the criticism faced by previous administrations for similar or lesser issues.

Notable Quote:

"These people made Obama ordering Grey Poupon on a burger front-page news... and then when their messiah in chief is tanking the economy... it's only been nine months—give me a break!"
— Tim Whitaker [13:41]

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3. Christian Persecution: Who’s Actually Under Threat?

[14:46]

• ICE Raids Targeting Churches & Clergy: Under Trump, ICE and law enforcement have begun arresting peaceful clergy and raiding churches, a scenario many conservative evangelicals once warned would happen under "anti-Christian" governments.
• Deafening Silence from the Right: The same Christian nationalists who decried mask mandates as persecution are silent when their own administration cracks down on Catholics, progressive Christians, and immigrants.
• Explicit Examples: Stories shared of local pastors in Chicago being detained, pepper bullets fired at peaceful clergy, and ICE raids on church properties even involving U.S. citizens and children.
• Racism & Hypocrisy: Tim and April note Christian nationalists only consider persecution a problem when it’s their own in-group; otherwise, they rationalize away clear human rights abuses.

Notable Quote:

"Christian nationalists do not care about other Christians outside of their bubble... If you're a Catholic, if you're progressive, you’re a heretic. These Christian nationalists have no problem stripping people—including clergy—of their First Amendment rights if it serves their interests of power and domination."
— Tim Whitaker [17:35]

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4. Faith in Action: Progressive Christian Resistance

[40:46]

• Churches Become Resistance Training Centers: Inspired by New Testament ideals, churches in Charlotte and elsewhere are holding training sessions on how to peacefully intervene during ICE raids.
• Success Stories: “Sembra” volunteers and local communities prevent detentions and support immigrant neighbors.
• Gospel in Action: The hosts highlight how real acts of resistance reflect the teachings of Jesus far better than performative Christianity seen in MAGA circles.

Memorable Moment:

"That is how you church.... Like that's the whole purpose of the gospel that's become so weaponized. Like, it's supposed to be standing up for the marginalized and mobilizing, and it's like faith in action."
— April Ajoy [43:34]

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5. Christian Nationalism, White Supremacy, and “Protecting Kids” — The Contradiction

[28:19]

• Selective Outrage & Racism: The Trump administration’s aggressive ICE actions disproportionately target immigrants of color, while white illegal immigrants go untouched.
• Xenophobia as Policy: The myth of “border security” is revealed as a propaganda tool to mask racist scapegoating and to consolidate power among white Christian nationalists.

"They want a largely white America, which is why they support this."
— Tim Whitaker [28:19]

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6. Transgender Day of Remembrance & Bad Theology

[35:08], [37:45]

• Standing with the Oppressed: The hosts mark National Trans Day of Remembrance, call out Christian complicity in anti-LGBTQ violence, and read a powerful reflection from Dr. Billy Horde.
• Faith as Repentance: Tim and April describe their activism as an act of public repentance for their former participation in oppressive evangelical ideologies.

"My work now publicly is an act of repentance for trying to undo the harm that I am either knowingly or unknowingly caused."
— Tim Whitaker [36:06]

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7. The Epstein Files & Trump’s (Non-) Response

[49:55], [54:45]

• Congressional Drama: Trump and Speaker Mike Johnson both tried to delay or water down the release of the Epstein files despite bipartisan momentum. Johnson is criticized for protecting Trump rather than championing transparency.
• Trump’s Unhinged Truth Social Statement: April does a dramatic reading of Trump's rambling, self-serving post upon signing the bill for file release (hilarious improv, worth a listen at [54:45]).
• Glaring MAGA Silence: Despite multiple mentions of Trump in released emails, no prominent MAGA figures or right-wing influencers question Trump’s involvement; defense mechanisms and hypocrisy are rampant.

"It's so wild to me that no one is looking at Trump, that MAGA is not even asking themselves, 'Could Trump be involved?'"
— April Ajoy [64:08]

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8. The Media’s Response and Survivors’ Stories are Ignored

[75:35], [76:18]

• Minimization on the Right: Megyn Kelly is called out for defending Epstein as “not a pedophile” because he preferred 15-year-olds, with right-wing Christians (e.g., Allie Beth Stuckey) defending Kelly instead of condemning her rhetoric.
• Convenient Amnesia: The right was once obsessed with pedophilia as a Democratic scourge (Pizzagate, Wayfair), but is silent when credible evidence points at Trump or their own heroes.

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9. Christian Nationalism’s Cover for Abuse

[81:22], [83:05]

• Patterns of Abuse Enabling: Tim and April detail how white evangelical churches have long protected abusers, carrying over that mentality to their support for Trump, regardless of mounting evidence of criminality or complicity.
• Untouchable Leaders: Trump, positioned as “God’s anointed,” receives the same protection from scrutiny or accountability as abusive religious authorities.

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10. "Weird Christian Bleep” — Comic Relief

[88:22]

• Catfish Skulls and Jesus: April shares a viral video where a Christian claims catfish skulls prove the reality of Christ, much to their mutual amusement. The segment is used as a metaphor for how readily evangelicals believe conspiracy theories that support their worldview, yet ignore glaring evidence of corruption in their own in-group.

"They will believe a crucifix in a catfish skull... but won't believe the Epstein emails implicating Trump"
— Tim Whitaker [91:43]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Christian nationalists believe if you’re not like them, you are not a true Christian… have no problem stripping clergy of their First Amendment rights if it serves their interests."
  — Tim Whitaker, [17:35]

• "If you are a follower of Jesus… it's clear that a lot of MAGA Christians would deport Jesus right out of America if he showed up.”
  — April Ajoy, [24:09]

• "Every accusation is a confession. The people who tell you to protect the kids actually do not want to protect kids when it comes down to it."
  — Tim Whitaker, [81:22]

• “No men in women's sports or transgender for everyone, ending DEI... creating the hottest country anywhere in the world..."
  (Excerpt from Trump’s unfiltered Truth Social)
  — April Ajoy’s Trump impression, [53:11-54:45]

• “That is how you church.”
  — April Ajoy, on progressive congregations intervening in ICE raids, [43:34]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [09:24] Poll results and Fox News response
• [14:46] Conservative Christians silent on ICE clergy arrests
• [17:35] How Christian nationalists justify persecution of “other Christians”
• [24:09] Jesus would be deported by today’s MAGA Christians
• [28:19] Racial bias in immigration enforcement
• [35:08] Trans Day of Remembrance and Christian complicity
• [40:46] Churches as centers of resistance to ICE (Rachel Maddow segment)
• [54:45] April’s comedic Trump Truth Social reading
• [75:35] Megyn Kelly downplays Epstein’s crimes, MAGA defense
• [81:22] Pattern of evangelical abuse protection
• [88:22] Weird Christian Bleep: Catfish skull “proves” Jesus

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Memorable Moments

• April’s Trump Impression ([54:45]): A highlight for comedic relief.
• Rachel Maddow Segment ([40:46-43:34]): Spotlights real-life Christian resistance and what “church” can/should look like.
• "Weird Christian Bleep" Catfish Segment ([88:22]): Hilariously skewers the credulity of evangelical conspiracy-mongering.

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Conclusion

Tim and April’s episode is a blend of sharp critique, activism, and humor. They expose the hypocrisy and dangers of Christian nationalism—especially in how it enables real abuses, shields powerful leaders from accountability, rationalizes racism and xenophobia, and distorts the message of Christianity. Grounded in personal stories and real-world organizing, the show offers hope through the genuine resistance work of progressive people of faith and the growing rejection of toxic, performative Christianity.

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For Further Engagement

• Next live episode is Tuesday at 12:00 EST (pre-Thanksgiving special)
• Join/support The New Evangelicals
• Check out TNE Connect, the nonprofit’s online community for faith and justice
• Giving Tuesday campaign aims to raise $10,000 to support inclusive, justice-oriented Christian resources

For Listeners New to the Podcast:

This episode provides a window into the intersection of faith, justice, politics, and the movement to reclaim Christianity from toxic nationalism—delivered with candor, compassion, and plenty of laughs.

Transcript

[Tim Whitaker]

A KFC tale in the pursuit of flavor the holidays were tricky for the Colonel. He loved people, but he also loved peace and quiet. So he cooked up KFC's $4.99 chicken pot pie. Warm, flaky, with savory sauce and vegetables, it's a tender, chicken filled excuse to get some time to yourself and step away from decking the halls, whatever that means. The colonel lived so we could chicken KFC's chicken pot pie the best $4.99 you'll spend this season. Prices and participation may vary while supplies last, taxes, tips and fees extra.

[April Ajoy]

The holidays about family. But at the Chrysler Wrap of the Year sales event, it's all about you. Enjoy every mile in the most awarded minivan in America, the Chrysler Pacifica with the most standard safety features in its class, available Stow n Go seating and the available Stow n Vac built in vacuum. Make the most of the holidays with a great deal at the Chrysler Pacifica. Wrap up the Year sales event based on Ward's small van segment based upon the latest available competitor information. Chrysler is a registered trademark of FCA US llc. Shopping is hard. I can never find anything in my size.

[Angie]

I don't even know my size.

[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

Get started today@stitch fix.com hablas espanol spoich.

[Angie]

Come on.

[April Ajoy]

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[Melinda Hale]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. I just want to take a moment to say thank you for listening to the Tim and April Show. This show and everything that we do at the New Evangelicals exists because of people like you. We can't do any of this without your support. Every conversation you hear, every resource we create, every piece of educational content that helps people rethink faith through the lens of love and justice. It's all made possible through our community. Now if you believe in what we're building, a faith that unites instead of divides. I'd love to invite you to become a monthly supporter. Even just $5 a month helps us to continue to bring you shows like this one, expand our educational tools and create spaces for honest hope filled conversations. You can join us by going to thenewevangelicals.com support and becoming a monthly donor. Thanks for being a part of this movement, for building a better path forward together.

[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Tim Whitaker]

We're live. April. We're live.

[April Ajoy]

Are we?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, we are. What's up friends? Welcome into the Tim and April show. I am Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow, you're feeling energy. Yeah, I'm feeling it too. Today I got a second wind.

[April Ajoy]

Well, it helps when we go live at noon instead of live at 9am.

[Tim Whitaker]

Improv. Yeah, there's a story behind that. Friends, if you're just joining the live either on substack or on YouTube, welcome in. We are the Tim and April show. We go live every Thursday at 12:00 Eastern. And we are two former Christian nationalists who now help people better understand the Christian nationalist world that we are living in and how to fight it and how to expose it and hope. Hopefully helping you understand the logic behind it. If you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to give this video a like and subscribe to the channel. If you're watching on on substack, hit that heart button. Apparently it helps out. That's what I'm told. Good to have all of you. Wait a second. I'm sorry I have to say this. There's someone watching from Cherry Hill in New Jersey. I am 20 minutes away from Cherry Hill, so hello to you in substack. How to say that? But yes, April, it is true. On Tuesday we called an audible and we went live at 9. Tuesday.

[April Ajoy]

I know and I have a confession. I didn't say this on Tuesday because we we went live with the conference that the Epstein survivors held and it was really powerful and obviously a very serious thing. So I'm not gonna like say this what I'm about to say then, but you texted me at 8:47am and said Epstein Survivor is holding a conference at 9:00am do you wanna go live? And I remember I replied, I was like the 9am and 13 minutes. 9am.

[Tim Whitaker]

Mind you I'm texting you from the gym sauna. So I'm scrolling. Catching up on news. I'm like, wait, they're going live in 13 minutes. I gotta text April, see if we can pull this off.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And we had another video planned for that day. And I was like, well, what are we doing with that video that was supposed to drop at 9:00am? We're like, well, we'll post it later. But here's my confession. And I didn't tell you this at the time because I was a little embarrassed, but so I take my children to school Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I wake up before the sun does, and it's very early. So Beecher and I take turns when we take our kids to school. So Thursdays are Beacher's Day. So that's my like, sleep in day, which sleep in is usually like 8:30. Right, right, totally. So I was awake when you texted me, but I was definitely still in bed. And I hadn't gone to the bathroom, I hadn't brushed my teeth, I hadn't put on any makeup. And I'm like 9, 8, like 13, but it's 9am so. So you went live a little before me. And I was just like. I think I got on at like 9, 10.

[Tim Whitaker]

So we had. So there is a team behind this that helps out now. We, we have someone who kind of schedules the YouTube and kind of formats it with thumbnails. We have a producer who's actually watching right now behind the scenes in the chat. And so I'm in. In full transparency, the team will tell you that until Melinda Hale showed up to take over executive director of tne, which is the organization that, that produces the show, the New Evangelicals, it was pretty chaotic working with me. Okay. It was very, like, last minute, very like, hey, can we do this now? So I think I kind of triggered all of them when they found out that we're going to go live in 30 minutes and do an audible. But yeah, I mean, I ran home, I showered off as quick as I could. I said, sarah, can you throw me a pot of coffee on or a cup of coffee? I have to go live. And I hopped on and I think it was 9:10 when I hopped on and. And you were at 9:13. But hey, we did it. We did it, April. We went live.

[April Ajoy]

I know Beecher was confused too, because Beecher, they don't teach till like 11 on Tuesday, Thursdays. And so they were writing me notes because they were like, can I come kiss you goodbye? Like, and they're like, why are you so quiet? And I'm trying to be like, Epstein survivors, this is serious.

[Megyn Kelly]

Stop it.

[April Ajoy]

But I'm really glad we went live because I think in all of this Epstein drama, and we're going to talk about that more later in the show, but I think it's important to try to center the survivors voices in all of this because they are really who matters in this story.

[Tim Whitaker]

And we have a lot to share about that, which we'll get into. Friends, a big news announcement. Just because we're in holiday mode here, April and I, obviously next week is Thanksgiving and both of our partners would absolutely kill us if we decided to go live on Thanksgiving at 12 o' clock Eastern. So what we're going to do is we're going to go live this Tuesday on right here on substack and on YouTube and then we'll release a prerecorded episode that's a little more fun on Thursday about the holidays and just us kind of bantering. And we did think about, you know, what, what do, what do we do for a Tuesday live? I think because we're kind of entering into holiday mode, we'll keep it a little more light. Maybe we'll do a Q and A from the substack audience and YouTube audience, kind of hang out, share some stories, we'll cover some things in the news, maybe do some extra weird Christian bleep and we'll. We'll have a good time. So we'll be here at 12:00 Eastern this Tuesday live with you both on substack and on YouTube.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And can I just say, the weird Christian beep that we have today, I. I literally found it. It's in my algorithm. My, I have trained my real algorithm because I just get served all these videos because I need to know what to pull. But anyway, I just saw it before and my reaction, I wish we were recording because it was wild.

[Tim Whitaker]

You did laugh. You cackled. You were like, oh my God.

[April Ajoy]

So stick around. That's going to be fun. Yeah. So I guess the only. Did you mention Super Chats?

[Tim Whitaker]

Did you mention that all Super Chats get read live? So if you want your chat to be read on the air, you can send us a Super chat. All Super Chats go to support this work. The New Evangelicals is a nonprofit organization that produces this show, and so all the Super Chats, any donations that get sent in, go right to making this work possible. So FYI on that. Okay, well, should we get into some of the shallow end side of the news? Cycle.

[April Ajoy]

Sure. In a Fox News poll. So remember Fox News poll. And this is a headline from Fox News website. It says, fox News poll voters say White House is doing more harm than good on economy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Ajoy]

So Trump's approval rating is at 41%, which is a low. Like that's a second term low.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And it said for comparison, Biden's were a bit better at his same point in his presidency where he had 44% approved and 54%.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is a Fox News poll. This isn't MSNBC. This isn't, this is Fox News. Everyone that is pulling Donald Trump that low. And we also, I also grabbed these favorability. Where is it? Wrong slide. There we go. I, I pulled his job performance on, on different issues, everyone pretty much disapproves of the job he's doing, except for on quote unquote, border security, which I'll get into that in a minute. But when it comes to Even immigration, most, 53% disapprove. Foreign policy, 55% disapproved. The economy, 61% disapproved. Tariffs, 63% disapproved. Health care, 64% disapproved. Which, by the way, I just want to say about the healthcare thing, all the more reason why those eight Democrats from a week ago or two weeks ago should have held out because obviously it was a very unpopular decision to let these tax subsidies expire for the health care marketplace.

[April Ajoy]

I do hope they'll, they'll vote to extend those separately because a lot of the stuff in the big beautiful bill that will negatively impact more people's wallets.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

With health care and just the things that are in there, that has not even taken like started yet.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

So FOX News on Fox and Friends, though, they, it was kind of funny seeing them try to talk about these very bad numbers.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's just play the clip. I mean, the headline reads Poll 54% disapprove of. It doesn't even say Trump's of Trump. It just says Trump's disapprove Trump's handling of economy. That's what it says. Okay.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here's their response on Fox and Friends.

[April Ajoy]

Eggs prices are down. Gas prices are down.

[Tim Whitaker]

So a couple things. First of all, I'm not going to tell the American people how to feel because I think Joe Biden made that mistake of saying, hey, you know, it's, it's transitory. You're not feeling it. But it has only been nine months. And the bill, the big beautiful bill has not, it was passed, but it's not been implemented just yet. There's still some time for that. So it's giving people. And then when it comes to some of the energy policy, all of that has not been implemented just yet. So I'm not saying. Hold on a little bit, but I.

[Angie]

Am saying it's kind of unfair, Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

When someone has been there nine months to put it all on them.

[April Ajoy]

Right? Unfair. This is so unfair.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's so unfair. The man who's been running the country for the past nine months, WHO has found ways to fund ICE and fund other programs, give Argentina $20 billion, find a way to raise money for the new ballroom. It's unfair that people are giving him a hard time about the terrible state the economy is in because of the policies that he's enacted.

[April Ajoy]

Also, I remember in the first year of Joe Biden's presidency, granted, he had just inherited a tanking economy because of COVID you know, which I don't know that you can really blame either president for what happened in Covid, because that was like a fluke global pandemic situation.

[Tim Whitaker]

Covid is. Covid writes its own thing.

[April Ajoy]

Right. Which caused a lot of inflation and a lot of stuff, but it was Covid. But anyway, I remember in that first. First, that first year of Joe Biden's presidency, do you remember they would put all those little stickers on gas prices? They were like, I did that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally. It's so critical, of course, supercritical. These are the people who made front. They made Obama ordering Gray Poupon on a burger. Front page news.

[Rachel Maddow]

Okay?

[Tim Whitaker]

This is how petty these people are. And then when their messiah in chief is tanking the economy, I mean, look it up. Egg prices are higher. Grocery prices are higher. Our economy is losing jobs. Well, guys, it's only been nine months. Give me a break. But don't forget.

[April Ajoy]

Well, I think. I think there were just. I think I saw a thing on CNN today that there, they added like 100. And I don't want to misquote, but it was like they. There were some jobs added last month.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, but the month before they lost them. And then Verizon just announced that they're gaining. Verizon announced that they're cutting 13,000 jobs. Amazon announced they're cutting 30,000. Now, listen, those things could be separate from Trump in his policies. However, we know if this was President Harris economy, Fox and Friends would be like, wow, look at what she's doing. We're losing jobs everywhere. It's the worst economy it's been in 45 years. That's the point, these people are not good faith actors.

[April Ajoy]

Agreed. Totally agree. Another example of how they are not good faith actors is.

[Rachel Maddow]

You.

[April Ajoy]

You were the one who sent me this story, and I saw a lot of people talking about it, too. But you have a lot of these, especially, like, more Christian nationalists, maga Christians, right, who talk about Christian persecution all the time when it's aimed at them, right? Like, we're being persecuted, we're hated because of our faith, blah, blah, blah, blah. With, like, really no evidence. Like you have. You're literally in power right now. But they've been completely silent on ice that has now been targeting churches and arresting clergy like pastors.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, that's right. It's been. It's been friends. This is a really important story for us because you have to understand, as people who grew up as conservative evangelical Christians, we were taught very early on that at any moment the government could burst through our church doors and arrest us for preaching the truth of God's word. I mean, I'm not sure about you, April, but me and my friends built an underground church, quote, unquote, out of cardboard, where we. We made cardboard tunnels and tunneled into a friend's house with the power turned off, pretending that we were the underground church. Smuggling in Bibles in a hostile country. That's a real thing. I did.

[April Ajoy]

I'm only laughing because I did the same thing. I would literally envision myself, like, saying no and refusing the mark of the beast in the end times to get my head chopped off because I was persecuted for my faith.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. Which.

[April Ajoy]

That's some. That's some end times rapture left behind lore for, like, the secular, non Christian audience out there, which. We can ask us that question on Tuesday. We'll explain it.

[Tim Whitaker]

And during COVID I'm not sure about you, but I saw a lot of pastors go, whoa, whoa, this is tyranny. We have to shut down mass gatherings during a global pandemic. You're infringing on our right to worship, which, by the way, they actually were not because the church itself is actually made up of very small groups. That's what the church actually is. So. So people could have pivoted and done very small little house groups of, like, two or three people, but they refused. Right. And this is how I got my start doing online content. I couldn't believe that there were worship leaders and other people out there saying, faith over fear, holding massless gatherings in the name of tyranny. Right. Also, I will say this is what radicalized Charlie Kirk and Turning Point. USA to go from more libertarian to this Christian nationalist ideal. If you ever hear Charlie's story, his pastor, Pastor Rob McCoy, was the one who woke him up to the unjust tyranny of the government during COVID shutdowns. Okay, so keep all of this in mind. This is all in the background of these stories. Well, it turns out that ice, meaning federal agents under the direction of the Trump regime, are arresting clergy. They are barging into churches. They are, they're, they're, they're not letting Catholic priests serve communion to people detained by ice. It's unbelievable what's happening right now. In fact, here's one picture. This is a faith leader, Michael Wolf, minister at Lake Street Church of Evanston. He's detained by Illinois State Police during a protest against immigration actions outside the Broadview ICE facility in Chicago, Illinois. Okay, this is what they're doing to peaceful clergy. People who are marching, they're in the streets peaceful. They're being arrested. Not a peep. Not. I have not seen a peep from the right wing commentators who are warning me about Christian persecution yet. Their policies, their Messiah in chief is literally attacking. Look at this. This clergy is wearing a shirt called Bad Religion Kills. Shout out to our friend Kevin Garcia. This is their. Yeah. Wait, what did I say?

[April Ajoy]

You said bad religion.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sorry. Bad theology kills. Our friend Kevin Garcia made this shirt so very cool to see it photographed here. Another clergy person, Luke Harris, being arrested as well. And, and we know. Here's another one that I think is really powerful. This is a pastor being pepper bulleted in the face.

[April Ajoy]

And that is close range.

[Tim Whitaker]

That is, he's within three or four feet.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Again, where are these people who are panicking about church persecution? It is literally happening right now where clergy are being attacked and people in churches are being attacked. There was a story that came out April in Charlotte. So I'm not sure if you know, but ICE has been in Charlotte this past week doing all kinds of horrible things, scaring people in the community. Bakeries that have been open for 28 years, you know, every day of the week for the first time, are closed. Down in Charlotte, ICE agents in masks stormed a church property, did not identify themselves, and arrested a man in front of kids doing yard work. Congregants thought they were being hit by some kind of militia because the agents refused to say who they were. One of the kids who ran, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I have a picture of him, but I don't think I do. One of the kids who ran was 15 years old. And he said to himself, why am I running? I'm a citizen. So ICE agents are targeting not just who they think are, quote, unquote, undocumented immigrants, but they're targeting citizens, too, just because of what they look like in churches. Now, again, where are the pastors who were crying about mask mandates and social distancing guidelines during a global pandemic that was killing people? Where are those same pastors when federal agents are marching onto church property, scaring parishioners and arresting them with no due process, with no reason for the arrest to happen in front of children? Like, where are they? They're not here. And this is the important piece I want to drive home. Christian nationalists do not care about other Christians that are outside of their bubble. You have to understand that Christian nationalists believe if you're a Catholic, if you're a progressive, if you're not like them, you are a heretic. You are not a true Christian. And these Christian nationalists have no problem stripping people, including clergy, of their First Amendment rights if it serves their interests of power and domination. That's the logic behind. But it is really. I mean, I have so many stories. In Los Angeles, faith leaders are mobilizing after ICE raids targeted local congregations in the Bay Area. A UCC pastor was literally shot in the face. We shared that picture a second ago. Catholic priests have been refused entry to serve Catholic detainees. Communion. It's on. I mean, the very government that is doing the persecution was voted in by the very people warning us of Christian persecution.

[April Ajoy]

Well, this is why, you know, there's that Bible verse that says, these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Because you have, like, you have evangelicalism, white evangelicalism and Christian nationalism and this whole maga Christian world, right? It is performative Christianity. It is, you know, showing up with a smile on your face to church. It's getting the photo op. It's. It's celebrating Donald Trump making an anti Christian task force to weed out anti Christian bias that really doesn't exist. Like, yes, there are people who hate Christianity in America. There is no systemic move to weed out Christianity in America. And I will say the people that are, like, very, like, anti theist or anti Christianity, honestly have good reason, because the Christians that are the loudest in this country are bigots. They're actively harming people. It's performative. It is so hypocritical. And anyone who's not inside those circles can see it clear as day. I do want to shout out, before we get to Some of these videos, and the sad part is there are countless videos of us doing just such inhumane things to immigrants, many of them who are citizens. But honestly, that shouldn't matter. They're not announcing who they are, they're not IDing themselves, they're just going in and attacking people. But I want to give credit where credit is due. Pope Leo, who's from Chicago, has called out the Trump administration for their inhumane treatment of immigrants as well as. So he wrote. This was last week. Oh no, it's just a couple days ago. In, let's see, he made his remarks while answering questions from journalists outside realm. He said, quote, we have to look for ways of treating people humanely, treating people with the dignity that they have. If people are in the United States illegally, there are ways to treat that. There are courts, there's a system of justice. No one has said that the United States should have open borders.

[Melinda Hale]

That's right.

[April Ajoy]

I think every country has the right to determine who enters, how and when. He added, however, when people have lived good lives, many of them for 10, 15, 20 years, treating them in a way that is, to say the least, extremely disrespectful and with instances of violence is troubling. And the U.S. conference of Catholic Bishops issued a special message last week lamenting the Trump admins immigration policies. And they said, we oppose the indiscriminate mass deportation of people. We pray for an end to dehumanizing rhetoric and violence, whether directed at immigrants or at law enforcement.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yes.

[April Ajoy]

This is so basic to the Catholic Church for at least calling this out. Right. Like, absolutely. This should be baseline Christianity. Like if you are a follower of Jesus, Jesus said, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me. And what you do to the least of these, you do to me. And it is clear that a lot of MAGA Christians would deport Jesus right out of America if he showed up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right out. Right? Yeah, yeah. You know, brown skinned Middle Eastern Jesus born in modern day Palestine. There's no home for him here. I mean, it's evident. Right. We know who they're targeting. They're not targeting white illegal immigrants. They're not targeting people from Canada or from Europe who might be here illegally. Which by the way, many of them actually are. They're targeting brown skin folks from south of the border. It's, it's obviously racist. I mean, it's like they're using, they're, they're looking at someone, they're judging them based on the color of their skin to be illegal. And Then they are arresting them or detaining them or ripping them out of trucks. Even though many of them are either going through the court process, have no criminal record, or are here as citizens, they are. They are legal US citizens. So we're going to play this video for those listening on on podcast. Just be warned. There's a lot of language in this video. So there's a lot of F words coming your way. It's someone watching ICE rip a man out of his truck who was and is a US citizen. Listen to this. I'm playing the whole thing.

[Angie]

You guys again. Oh, what the. I'm backed up. I'm backed up. I'm backed up. What happened? What happened? They just ID him. They just ID him. The other guy. Don't you guys coordinate with each other? They just ID him. They just ID him. You broke his windows with another church that was here and ID him already. The is going on. Just show him your ID Again. This is. What the. Hey, listen, he got his ID here. He's got his id. Get away from him. You put a stop on me again. He's got his id. He already ID himself in five minutes. You put stop on me. He just ID himself. Why you guys keep stopping the same guy? Yeah, five minutes of going. Five minutes. Listen, I got. It's right in his wallet. Check him out. They just ID him. I am citizen, man. The. My wallet is here. Check out my wallet. Hey, listen, I see this in. Hey, I see this man. Hey, tell the guys I see this in. They just ID him. You can't just break people's windows. How many guys here is this? They already stopped this man and he already. He already showed him his id. Fucking go somewhere else. Get the criminals. This is fucking bullshit.

[Tim Whitaker]

We can stop it there. I mean, he's right. These are not criminals. That's what's so wild about this.

[April Ajoy]

And they had just broken his window. Yes, to unlock the door, to force him out. And he was a citizen.

[Tim Whitaker]

Citizen again, no due process, no cause. Right. He wasn't suspected of doing any criminal act. I just wonder, as always, where are the law and order people? If this was Biden's administration, if this was Harris's administration going after whoever they think should be protected. January Sixers, for example. If there is a video of a January Sixer being ripped out of his truck with his window being smashed in, you bet your ass. These right wing media people would be all over it. Look at how this administration is weaponizing the DOJ for their. Against their political enemies, blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah. These people do not care about anything that is good faith. They, they, many of them celebrate this. Many of the people who voted for this regime think that people like this man because he has an accent and he speaks Spanish, is inherently here either quote unquote, illegally or is a criminal or shouldn't be in the country. And that's, that's the xenophobia that we're, that we're exposing. This is what is baked into the white Christian nationalist ethos. They want a largely white America, which is why they support this.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, it's absolutely infuriating. I don't understand how people can see what's happening and support it. And maybe they're not seeing it, I don't know. But a lot of them, genuinely, it's, I mean, white evangelicalism and Christian nationalism has a white supremacy problem and a racist problem.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally, totally.

[April Ajoy]

But they, they, they do the whole don't, we don't see color. And they pretend like they're not racist, but like, the fact that they can turn a blind eye when it's happening to people who don't look like them is very telling.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, this is what happens when you believe that empathy is toxic. Right? This is what happens when you believe that empathy is sinful.

[April Ajoy]

Demonize empathy though, because they're able to watch innocent people be bullied and violently assaulted by ICE day after day after day. And they can still go to church on Sunday and sing How Great Is Our God and pretend like everything's all fine and dandy foreign.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[Angie]

Hi, my name is Angie. I live in Southern New Hampshire and I am a monthly donor to the New Evangelicals. I decided to donate because I've experienced the wonderfully supportive TNE Facebook community. I have been deconstructing and decolonizing my faith and it's been a tremendously lonely journey because I don't have anyone else to talk to about this. When I joined the TNE Facebook group, I felt so welcomed and included and I have thought many times I have found my people and this just feels wonderful. We have all had different experiences with evangelicalism. We are all at different stages in examining our faith traditions. Everyone in the group doesn't share the same spirituality, but the thing that we do share is that we are of one mind and being supportive of each other. I believe in the work that TNE is doing. I want others to experience this too.

[Tim Whitaker]

This episode is brought to you by PayPal. PayPal helps you make the most of your money. You can earn 20% cash back when you pay in four with PayPal from now through December 8th. No fees, no interest. Act now to get this limited time offer.

[April Ajoy]

Save the offer in the app to get 20% cash back when you pay in 4 from now through December 8th. PayPal expires 12. 8 See paypal.com promoterm subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com payinfor PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hello friends.

[April Ajoy]

Guess who?

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right, it is I, the replacer. Once again, I've been called on so you can play the new Call of Duty Black Ops 7 with three expansive Mother 18 multiplayer maps and the tastiest zombie gameplay you've ever freaking seen.

[April Ajoy]

Call of Duty Black Ops 7 available now.

[Tim Whitaker]

Rated M for Mature.

[April Ajoy]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix from the creator of Homeland. Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys star in the new Netflix series the Beast and me as ruthless rivals whose shared darkness will set them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me is a riveting psychological cat and mouse story about guilt, justice and doubt.

[Melinda Hale]

You will not want to miss this.

[April Ajoy]

The Beast in Me is now playing only on Netflix.

[Tim Whitaker]

So this video I wanted to play as well. This is a 15 year old that ICE arrested. And again, like it's we have to play. We have to. We have to see who they are. We have to see the actions of this administration, what they're tolerating. Here we go. There's literally maybe 10 agents out here.

[April Ajoy]

Look at this.

[Tim Whitaker]

He's 15.

[April Ajoy]

Everybody know immigration is here in China.

[Tim Whitaker]

He's 15. He's a child. What are we doing as a country?

[April Ajoy]

The way that they're just arresting people? No due process. They're detaining people without looking at their papers, without, like, that's actually illegal. You're not allowed, you're not supposed to be able to do that. And we're, we're just turning a blind eye.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's, it's not about law and order. It's not about, just come here legally. Look, I'll tell you guys a story briefly. I had a conversation with someone for the new Evangelicals podcast. It might not even come out. And I brought them on because they run an account where they're much more conservative than me. I actually met them at America Fest. I said, hey man, come on, let's have a good faith dialogue. And when I brought up these things, hey, ICE is ripping people out of their, their truck. Hey, ICE is going to the court system to pick up immigrants after their court hearing, meaning they're going through the process the legal way. And ICE is there arresting them. He goes, well, I haven't seen those videos. Well, I think, I think those are just an exception to the rule. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, that's the perception by some of these folks because they live in these echo chambers of right wing media that will not show them what's going on. Or if they see a video, they excuse it. Well, that's a rarity. Trump is cleaning up the streets. Undocumented immigrants are half as likely as their native born counterparts to commit crimes. These are not the people that are, are, are destroying America. The billionaires are destroying America. Okay? White men who commit mass shootings are destroying America. But they want you to think that the undocumented immigrant or the one going through the legal process or the immigrant who's, who's a citizen, they're the problem. This is how Christian fascism works. It's always looking for a scapegoat. That's not you. Right. It's always someone else's problem. It's always someone else's fault for why America is the way that it is. And it's usually always a minority. It's your trans neighbor, it's your immigrant neighbor. It's your DEI hire neighbor. It's your CRT neighbor, it's your drag queen neighbor. It's always a minority. Always. Every single time. That's how this works.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I also, we forgot to mention at the top, but you brought up trans people. But today is National Trans Day of Remembrance to honor all the trans people that have died by anti trans bigotry and violence. And we just want to hold space for that because there is also beyond the dehuman dehumanization of our immigrant neighbors. There is also a big campaign on dehumanization against are trans neighbors. And there's this push by a lot of fellow Christians and MAGA people that try to paint trans people as predators when study after study after study shows that they are far more likely to be prey to be the ones that are receiving the violence. And it pisses me off there, you know, bad theology kills. We mentioned earlier, there are a lot of Christians with blood on their hands for how we have, as a group, dehumanized entire groups of people for no reason other than being bigots.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And hatred. I want to share a quick excerpt from my friend Billy Horde. She's an amazing woman, actually. I just had her and her brother on the TNE podcast about their work on disgust theology. It's actually, it's. It's literally groundbreaking work and it's brilliant stuff. But she wrote on her sub sack a little segment here about the Transgender Day of Remembrance. So I want to read this just for the audience to hear. She writes, transgender Day of Remembrance exists first, as a duty, an opportunity, and a grace to mourn the lives of trans people who were taken from us. Transgender Day of Remembrance exists because it is right and good to lament loss, to mourn death, and because our community has fought to make space for that. Transgender Day of Remembrance exists second as a correction and a partial undoing of the destructive erasure of anti transness. Transgender Day of Remembrance is thus a day of lament steeped in righteous liberation, in righteous, liberating rejection of all that necessitates that lament. To begin with. The way in which we mourn our dead is both an act of sorrow and an act of defiance. We say their names. Absolutely. Powerful. Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, look, you and I grew up in a world that was very homophobic and transphobic, right? We were people who embodied those beliefs for a long time. And I say often, April, that my work now publicly is, you know, part of it is an act of repentance, you know, for trying to undo the harm that I am either knowingly or unknowingly caused towards my. My LGBTQ plus neighbor. So it's really important that we highlight them as, especially as two Christians, that we absolutely stand with our trans siblings for sure, and want to do everything that. Everything that we can to promote their well being and their human flourishing. Even in the middle of a Christian fascist takeover.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so we will continue to call this out as Christians. And I had someone ask me the other day, like, why do you speak so publicly in this like, political climate? Because it is very, it's taxing and it can be a little scary. And I just say, honestly, I was so vocal on the Republican side of things for so long that it's kind of like my repentance. It's my way to undo some of the harm and complicity that I was a part of in that world. So we're gonna keep calling it out.

[Tim Whitaker]

What's up?

[April Ajoy]

I also just want to point out, you mentioned earlier, I, I've seen that same rhetoric from maga, Christian nationalist evangelicals that, that say, like, oh well, those violent cases are fringe. It has been, the study came out like last month that the majority of the people that ICE is deporting have zero violent criminal records. Zero criminal record at all. Like the majority, the vast majority of the people that they are deporting are not only not criminals, but they're also Christians.

[Tim Whitaker]

That, that's, that goes back to the Christian persecution thing.

[April Ajoy]

Right, right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like again, these, these white Christians are all about being afraid of Christian persecution and their government is persecuting Christians who don't look like them or who don't believe the exact same things. Therefore it's justified. That's why we say that white Christian nationalism is all about white supremacy. Right. It only serves their interests. It never seeks the well being of the other, which is inherently antichrist. You cannot read the red letters, you cannot read the words of Jesus in the four gospel accounts and come away thinking that your job as a follower of Christ is to preserve your well being at the expense of your most marginalized neighborhood. It's the opposite. In the kingdom that Jesus talks about, the last are first and the first are last. The rich are brought down and the oppressed and poor are brought up. Right. It's a place where your enemy is loved. It's a place where the, you liberate the oppressed, where the hungry are fed. It's a place where Jesus tells the rich young ruler, sell everything, you have to be born again and follow me. And he says no. Or when he says to the rich people, you cannot serve both God and money. It is everything that Christian nationalism stands against is what Jesus stood for. And they just don't see it. Yeah, well, speaking of, speaking of good Christianity, because we often say that Christianity is a huge house, there are many, many rooms. And just because you and I were brought up in the basement of fundamentalism doesn't mean that there aren't Christians and clergy doing great work. I Want to play this segment from Rachel Maddow about how churches in Charlotte and around the US Are mobilizing to become training centers of how to intervene on behalf of your immigrant neighbor whenever ICE shows up? This is a really powerful segment. I'll play it all the way. It's about two and a half minutes. Really powerful. Check this out, Rachel.

[Rachel Maddow]

It was. It was exciting and it was inspiring here at the church tonight in Charlotte in a very, very dark time. There were, as you saw in the video, hundreds of people here on a Monday night when they could be doing just about anything else. And I think it's fair to say, based on some unofficial accounts that I've heard from sources here in Charlotte, that may be as many people in this church tonight. And there were four other trainings. Others have been scheduled here in North Carolina as federal agents on the ground conducting these operations. And Sembra has been in existence for a long time, since 2017. They have been preparing for this moment since the first Trump administration. But it was only now with these community meetings already planned, and then the Border Patrol and ICE showed up that they're really able to sort of effectuate all of this.

[Tim Whitaker]

And it is really quick. For those who can't see on podcast, they're literally showing B roll footage of people like role playing as ICE agents and bystanders intervening. So they're actually doing hands on training in these churches for if ICE shows up. Here's what you can and can't do, which I just want to say I freaking love it. Like, this is what the church is supposed to do. Counter Empire all the way. It's so good. Gets me amped.

[Rachel Maddow]

Just kumbaya and holding hands. Some of the people that have been inside have already been to some of the trainings. And one woman, Jenny, I want to show you this. She told me that these trainings are not only for people to stand up and resist, but they actually work. They're protecting their fellow residents. Here, watch this. What's the most important thing that you've taken away from being at these trainings and actually being out in the field in the face of the Border Patrol being here?

[April Ajoy]

I think obviously watching someone literally being detained. But I felt like our presence and the way that the rest of the folks in the parking lot at the grocery store where we were located, the community coming together, prevented that from being executed. They let him go.

[Rachel Maddow]

They let him go. They let him go. Wow, Rachel. It's all very practical. I mean, in that case, Jenny, this teacher said they let someone go when the Sembra volunteers showed up to one of these raids, they hand out flyers like this to say what to do if you're detained. And I think perhaps most importantly, like you said, they are learning from the other cities and it's not just all doom and gloomy. They even were teaching the people that were inside this church tonight songs to sing. This little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine when they show up to protect the people of this community so it doesn't get violent, so it doesn't get adversarial, so it stays positive and uplifting in a moment. That's really hard for so many people here, man.

[April Ajoy]

That is how you church. No, I know. I literally. That's like the whole purpose of.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

The gospel that's become so weaponized. Like it's supposed to be standing up for the marginalized and mobilizing and it's like faith in action. It's not this stupid performative crap where you just show up to church, sing your songs, go home, and then our complete on Facebook the rest of the week, you know?

[Tim Whitaker]

No, I know. It's, it's, it's so. It's wild. Like how, I mean, look what he said about them singing this Little Light of Mine. I'm like, I sang that song as a kid.

[April Ajoy]

I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

And to see it repurposed in the face of Empire, it's like that's what it was always meant to be, always meant to do. Because you're right. I mean, you know, there is this performative nature to this evangelical thing that we grew up in where like, if you just sing the right songs and show up at church and plant a small group and if you're a leader, you're great, but if you're an asshole on Facebook, not a big deal. And I, I don't know, it just, it hits me because it's like, this is the church that I always wanted to be a part of. A church that was like, radical in that sense. Not radical in the homophobic, xenophobic, patriarchal, Trump loving way, but radical in the upside down kingdom way of Jesus advocates for all of their neighbors way. And I mean, man, seeing that is like, how do I get involved? Like, sign me up. I want to volunteer.

[April Ajoy]

You know, it's such a good reminder too. Like, we, we are not the loudest. We're not the ones with the most microphones. We're not the ones in the Oval Office, you know, supporting this president. But there are a lot of us. And I, I was encouraged too. I spoke at a church this past Saturday on a Saturday in Cincinnati and the, the place was packed. There was like probably over 200 people. It was this beautiful like hundred year old Methodist church. And it was all these good Christian people that want to fight maga, like want to fight this oppressive nature of people using the gospel, using Jesus to weaponize it and to oppress people. And they say, no, no, that's not our faith. And it's just, it encourages me so much because there are way more people than we realize, other Christians that are not going to allow MAGA to have a monopoly on our faith because it is our faith too, 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, look, the data is very clear. Christian nationalism, as far as an ideology is a minority among Americans. About 30% hold some former Christian nationalist beliefs out of, out of all Americans. So that means that the overwhelming majority of people, including Christians, rejects Christian nationalism. That's why it's so important to speak up. Because you're right, these Christian nationalists have a lot of funding. So they're able to have these huge presences online and they're able to get access to the Oval Office. And it looks like, like they're everywhere. And in some ways they are, they have huge organizations.

[April Ajoy]

But when it comes, they are the majority of white evangelicals, which is a huge people.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I mean they are by. In fact, Christian nationalism is most concentrated in white evangelicalism, according to pri. But as far as the Christian house. Right. All the other rooms, most of those places are not Christian nationalist hotbeds. And it's encouraging, it's a good reminder that there are more of us than them. And this is the time now, I think, for us to find ways to put our bodies in between our immigrant neighbor and the machine of empire that is currently being run by these Christian fascists. Right. I would say that especially white Christians like ourselves have a huge obligation, moral obligation to really stand on the front lines and let our bodies take the arrows that are aimed at, you know, the black church and the progressive church and you know, et cetera, and our immigrant neighbors. So a huge deal, I think. For sure.

[April Ajoy]

I completely agree. So even though a lot of these terrible things are happening and ICE is being awful, I am encouraged at the resistance that is standing up more and more. Before we get. We're about to talk about. Epstein, there are updates. You want to talk about giving Tuesday?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, let's. First let's read some super chats.

[Rachel Maddow]

Super chats.

[April Ajoy]

We haven't done that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Joseph Compton, the big beautiful bill is going to make things so much better. I can't wait for that. Hi Roll sarcasm, Stevie Clown. I'm gender fluid, a drag clown, and 57 years old. I'm not going anywhere. Thank you for honoring our community and real allies. Love you both. Thanks, Stevie Clown. That's awesome. Another one from Joseph Compton that came in. These ICE agents should be brought up on civil rights violations. And there's. And there's no early release from federal prison. I co signed that. Cinders take two. I am so grateful for this show. I support you always. Rock on. And then one more from Elizabeth. So thankful for your show, friends. The the Tim and April show is produced by the New Evangelicals. It's a nonprofit organization that I founded back in December of 2020 because I was really concerned about the direction of my faith and I had no clue if I was the only one out there. And five years later, turns out there was a lot of us and now I get to do this work full time. We're led by Melinda Hale, our executive director, and we're able to produce this content because of the generosity of people like you. And Giving Tuesday is coming up and for nonprofits, frankly put it's a huge day for us to really raise some serious money to kind of sustain us into 2026. Our goal is to raise $10,000, which will be matched by an anonymous donor giving us $20,000. So on giving Tuesday or even that weekend, if you would consider becoming a donor and make a donation to the org, you can go to the newevangelicals.com support to make a donation. All donations are tax deductible and so it really helps us do all of this work completely paywall free. We offer community resources. We have our own community space called TNE Connect, which is full of people. It's off of the meta platform entirely. It's its own space with free resources, its own social media feed, and that's all completely free because of your generosity. So if you want to get involved, that's the new evangelicals.com support. A sincere thank you to all of our donors and monthly donors who make this work possible. Without you, there is no Tim and April show, there is no New Evangelicals, and there is none of the resources that we offer. So a sincere thank you.

[April Ajoy]

Yes, thank you all. Well, Jeffrey Epstein, what a segue. That was not a smooth segue.

[Rachel Maddow]

That was.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know what, April, you're like, you're usually like 100%, so we'll take 99. You know, it's okay.

[April Ajoy]

I was like, okay, so since we went live even on Tuesday, so we went live during the conference, right then. The House on Tuesday voted 427 to 1 to pass the Epstein vote because Donald Trump had an overnight reversal late last week and encouraged everyone to vote to release the Epstein files. And I love how he's trying to pretend now that he was always wanting them to release it. The one. The one holdout was Clay Higgins, who's a Republican. And he kind of said, I don't know, he made some kind of weird thing of like, this is going to hurt people. I don't know why, but he's the only one who voted no on it. And then it went to the Senate. The Senate passed it unanimously. And then it went to Trump's desk that night. And then Donald Trump, it was odd because normally he videos these, like, really important things where he signs from the Oval Office, but there was no video. He just posted on Truth Social that he signed it into law. Should I read this? Truth Social.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, God. Okay, it's. We should. We should preface. What April's about to read is one Truth Social post from Trump and one April's gonna do her thing. And I'm just gonna say a super chat would be a great way of showing gratitude for what you're about to witness. I'll just leave it there.

[April Ajoy]

I'm going into character the floor. Do you have it to pull up as I read it?

[Tim Whitaker]

I couldn't. It's too long. Hold on. Let me.

[April Ajoy]

Can you literally drop the screenshot or just like.

[Tim Whitaker]

I couldn't screenshot it. Hold on. I'm working on it. Let me find this true thing. Where did you put it? Is it in our discord?

[April Ajoy]

I don't know.

[Rachel Maddow]

Hold on.

[April Ajoy]

I can put it in the chat here.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, put it in the chat. Put it in the chat.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Did I find it?

[April Ajoy]

You have it.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, that's. That's one. That's him playing soccer with Ronaldo. Ronaldo.

[April Ajoy]

The AI video.

[Tim Whitaker]

This one. Oh, I got it, I got it, I got it. Okay, I'll do my best friends. If you can't read it, I'm sorry.

[Rachel Maddow]

It's.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's super.

[April Ajoy]

No, no, I literally have it pulled up on my computer. I had to lower my. The font. Like, I had to make it smaller in order to fit it all.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, the floor is yours.

[April Ajoy]

This is how Donald Trump announced that he signed the bill. Jeffrey Epstein, who was charged by the Trump justice department in 2019, not the Democrats, was a Lifelong Democrat, donated thousands of dollars to Democrat politicians and was deeply associated with many well known Democrat figures such as Bill Clinton who traveled on his plane 26 times. Larry Summers, who just resigned from many boards including Harvard sleazebag political activist Reid Hoffman, Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries who asked Epstein to donate to his campaign after Epstein was charged, Democrat Congresswoman Stacy Plaskett and many more. Perhaps the truth about these Democrats and their associations with Jeffrey Epstein will soon be revealed because I have just signed the bill to release the Epstein files. As everyone knows, I asked the speaker of the House Mike Johnson and Senate Majority Leader John Thune to pass this bill in the House and Senate respectively. Because of this request, the votes were almost unanimous in favor of passage. At my direction, the Department of Justice has already turned over close to 50,000 pages of documents to Congress. Do not forget the Biden administration did not turn over a single file or page related to Democrat Epstein, nor did they ever speak about him. Democrats have used the Epstein issue, which affects them far more than the Republican Party in order to try and distract from our amazing victories in including the great big beautiful tax cut bill, strong borders, no men and women's sports or transgender for everyone, ending dei, stopping Biden's record, setting inflation, lowering prices, biggest tax and regulation cuts in history, ending eight wars, rebuilding our military, knocking out Iran's nuclear capability, getting trillions of dollars invested in the usa, creating the hottest country anywhere in the world and even delivering a huge defeat to the Democrats on recent shutdown disaster. For years our great nation has had to endure Russia, Russia, Russia. Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. Impeachment hoax number one, impeachment hoax number two and many other Democrat created witch hunts and scams, all of which have been so terrible and divisive for our country and have done to confuse, deflect and distract from the great job that Republicans and the Trump administration are doing. This latest hoax will backfire on the Democrats just as all of the rest have. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Make America great again.

[Tim Whitaker]

If that's not worth a like on YouTube, I'm not sure what is. April Amazing. Amazing. My favorite part was Russia, Russia, Russia, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. I was dying.

[April Ajoy]

I did not practice that. I went in cold.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's truly amazing.

[April Ajoy]

Put it on my resume can vastly read no Trump's Wow. I don't even have a brain anymore.

[Tim Whitaker]

I would call it a spiritual gift. I mean it is a spiritual gift. The ability to to read Trump's true socials like that. I mean that's gotta be worth Something, somewhere. I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

[April Ajoy]

He starts off talking about how this is going to bring down Democrats, and then at the end, he's like, but this is a hoax.

[Tim Whitaker]

Russia, Russia, Russia, Ukraine.

[April Ajoy]

You remember the Brady Bunch? Like, Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. That's what I thought about.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so that's all happening.

[April Ajoy]

No men and women's sports and transgender for everyone.

[Tim Whitaker]

What the hell was he talking about?

[April Ajoy]

They're so stupid.

[Tim Whitaker]

This goes back to. Okay, so remember on that. Where was it? It was this slide. Nope, that's not the. That's not it. Nope. This one how the only. On President Trump's job performance, the only approval in the majority was border security. That doesn't affect people's lives at all. It is. You know, there's something almost impressive about how MAGA has brainwashed people into voting for Trump based on things that will never affect their life while this administration rips apart the social safety nets. Nets and the subsidies that they would benefit from. Right. I mean, the big, beautiful bill is one of the greatest wealth transfers in modern history, but these people are like, well, the border secure. What does that mean? Has your house been invaded by an undocumented immigrant? Like, what. Why would that even. Why would that rhetoric even matter to you? Why do you care about the 10 transgender women in the NCAA? There's 10 of them at the college level. Why would you vote for that? Thinking somehow it makes your life better. It's like, again, the brainwashing is almost impressive. It's crazy.

[April Ajoy]

It is almost impressive. Anyway, I want to talk about. Okay, so, okay, I got clips for.

[Tim Whitaker]

Mike Johnson, whenever you're ready.

[April Ajoy]

So he signed it? Yep. Oh, yeah, we've got video of Mike Johnson. I want to just say, too, what this means going forward.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

The bill requires Attorney General Pam Bondi to release all unclassified records related to Epstein within 30 days. But it it in the bill, which is weird that Clay Higgins refused to sign it, saying security reasons, because there's literally things in the bill already that will permit Bondi to withhold or redact information that could jeopardize a federal investigation. So she also recently agreed because of Trump's request to investigate Epstein's connection to the Democrats and others, which is interesting because the Justice Department earlier this year tried to close this case completely. And they said that they, quote, did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties. So they said that in the spring, I think, maybe early summer, saying, case closed, nothing to see here. There's no One else to charge, I think Cash. Patel kind of said that Jeffrey Epstein was, like, trafficking girls to himself anyway, so they. They're doing a 180. They're trying to blame all Democrats, and that's kind of where we are. So we'll see what they release in the next 30 days. I don't necessarily trust what this administration is going to release, but it is wild to me that. And we're going to get to these in a second. But out of all the times that Donald Trump was mentioned in the emails that were released that week, how is not a single person from MAGA being like, maybe Trump's involved?

[Tim Whitaker]

Hi. We will get to that, won't we? Because we have some receipts about that. Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing, April.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

So these are a few clips from Mike Johnson, kind of seeing his progression. This is before the bill went to, I think, the House. I think this is before this happened. Here's what he said.

[Rachel Maddow]

So what am I to do as a leader in a situation like this? I call my counterpart in the Senate, Leader Thune, and I talked him through this with him and shared our deep concerns. And of course, they share those concerns as well. And so I'm very confident that when this moves forward in the process, if and when it is processed in the Senate, which there's no certainty that that will be, that they will take the time methodically to do what we have not been allowed to do in the House, to amend this discharge petition and to make sure that these protections are there. The authors of the discharge did not allow us to do that here. That's the rules here. But in the Senate, they can correct it. So.

[Tim Whitaker]

So this is Mike Johnson essentially saying, hey, we. We want to make some amendments to. To this bill that forces us to release the Epstein files, which is really his way of covering Trump's ass. I mean, Mike Johnson is such a simp for this man. And this is a guy who called him, who compared himself to Moses. Okay. Mike Johnson has deep ties to the new apostolic reformation. This is a Christian nationalist, like, all the way through and through. It's wild watching him protect a man who was called out in these Epstein files as, quote, the dog that has embarked. So this bill goes through the House unanimously, except for that one. And then it goes to the Senate and it clears with no amendments. Okay. And this took Mike Johnson by surprise. Here's his reaction to it.

[April Ajoy]

Any reaction to leaders soon seeing the bill without adding amendments or changing it?

[Rachel Maddow]

I am. I'm deeply disappointed in this Outcome? I think I'm told. I've been at the state dinner. I don't know. I was just told that Chuck Schumer rushed it to the floor and put it out there preemptively. It needed amendments. I just spoke to the president about that. We'll see what happens.

[Tim Whitaker]

So is he.

[April Ajoy]

Do you think he may veto it?

[Tim Whitaker]

You say you spoke to the president.

[Rachel Maddow]

I'm not saying that I don't supportive.

[Angie]

Of it in its current form.

[Tim Whitaker]

We both have concerns about it. So we'll see.

[April Ajoy]

Are you frustrated in the majority leader?

[Angie]

Are you upset with the majority leader?

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so. So Mike expresses frustration over how this all went down. Again, guys, we need to always tell the truth. You would think that one that if we had thousands of files on. On the world's most prolific pedophile that was tied into our political system, feeding billionaires children and trafficking them. Right. His. His girlfriend is currently in prison on child sex trafficking charges, you would think it would be a bipartisan slam dunk. Hey man, if you're molesting children, we got to know about it. Let's release these files and let's get it all out there. Whoever it is. Let's all shake hands. Doesn't matter if it's a D in front of their name or an R in front of their name, they got to go. You would think that would be like such a bottom bare bones scenario. And we have Mike Johnson, the one claiming to be the Christian, the one claiming to stand for biblical values and protecting children, who is like fighting the bill that would release these files. So that happens. And then here is who spoke. Who is this? Is this Mike? Mike Johnson? Massie Massey? Is that who it is?

[April Ajoy]

I think so, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Responding to Mike Johnson's whining and moaning about how the bill went through the House and the Senate.

[Angie]

This bill, he says that it was.

[Tim Whitaker]

Poorly drafted, does not protect the victims as well.

[Angie]

What do you say to him?

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, he's trying to say that rich.

[Rachel Maddow]

And powerful men who were on the plane to Epstein island are now victims.

[Tim Whitaker]

That they would be victims because their.

[Rachel Maddow]

Names would get disclosed. Like look at his PowerPoint presentation today.

[April Ajoy]

He's.

[Tim Whitaker]

He's creating a new category of victims.

[Rachel Maddow]

So I think that's how a Christian man can stand up there and say a lie like that is. He's got something in the back of his head that makes it okay. But he.

[Tim Whitaker]

If he had real concerns, he could.

[Rachel Maddow]

Have introduced his own legislation.

[Tim Whitaker]

Look, there you go. So that's and reminder.

[April Ajoy]

They wanted Mike Johnson to have a vote to bring this to the floor. And he refused, which is why Thomas Massie had to even create this discharge petition to force a vote because Mike Johnson refused to bring it to the floor to vote on. So that's what this discharge position. And initially, I think it was only four Republicans that signed on this discharge position. So this like, 180 that they've all done to be like, nah, we've always supported. This is just stupid.

[Tim Whitaker]

And don't forget, Mike Johnson withheld the swearing in. I forgot her name. She was the special election in Arizona. He intentionally withheld her swear being sworn in because she was the final signer on the petition needed to force the bill to come essentially. Essentially to the floor. Yeah, he withheld that for weeks. How are we here?

[April Ajoy]

It's very frustrating. I do. I want to say something, okay. About one email that was released in the 20,000. Some emails that were released last week of Epstein that created a lot of memes online because it's just wild. And here's the thing, it is so wild to me that no one is looking at Trump, that MAGA is not even asking themselves, like, could Trump be involved? Also, Donald Trump used to be a Democrat, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, okay, so there's this one email, and it's between Mark Epstein, which is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, and Jeffrey Epstein. Okay. Mark Epstein writes to Jeffrey, you and your boy Donnie can make. Oh, wait, no, no, no. Ask him. Sorry, that's later. Ask him if Putin has the photos of Trump blowing Bubba. That is a real email that was released that not enough people are talking about on the right. I need. Listen, I need a reporter because a lot of people have been speculating that Bubba is Bill Clinton because apparently Bubba was a popular nickname for Bill Clinton back in the day. And I need. I need. I need a reporter to ask Donald Trump this question about this email. Because I just. I want to hear Donald Trump say, I did not have sexual relations with. With that man, Bill Clinton. I just need that to happen. It's all I want for Christmas, Tim. It would just. It would be the greatest. Like this, the memes. I have not enjoyed the Internet this much. Same since J.D. vance's couch situation. And that was made up. This is based on a real email, and I just. I need someone to ask him about it. I just. Even if it's not true, I need him to deny it. I want him to say that out loud.

[Tim Whitaker]

My favorite meme I've seen so far is it was a tweet that just said, so that's what he meant by the big, beautiful Bill.

[April Ajoy]

This is why. This is. This is why we have dying. The Internet was made for.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, we need to. Absolutely.

[April Ajoy]

I want to point out, too, that Mark Epstein made a statement after people were speculating that Donald Trump gave Bill Clinton a bj. He made a statement that said, bubba is not Bill Clinton. Paraphrasing. That was his whole statement. He did not clarify that Donald Trump didn't give someone a bj.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right.

[April Ajoy]

He just said, bubba is not Bill Clinton. And I just think, I just think that a reporter should ask Trump about that. I just want to hear what he has to say.

[Tim Whitaker]

If they do, he might call them a piggy. See that clip going around.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know, there really is. There is truly no low that Trump can stoop to that will ever be called out by anyone in his base who supports him. Trump called a reporter. Or he said, quiet, piggy. I can't think of a more dehumanizing, gross thing to say to a woman. And not. And by the way, it wasn't even really covered by mainstream media as, like, a major headline. This is Trump. I'm just like that. We're, you know, this is the tactic, right? They normalize what should always be seen as, as abominable. A sitting president right next to the seal, by the way, of the, of the, of the White House said that to a woman who's a journalist. What the fuck? And again, like, I just want to know, where are the Christian apologists? Where are these evangelicals who are obsessed about the transgender movement and how the left is coming for your kids and how they're so vicious? I mean, it's, it's crazy that they say nothing about things like this.

[April Ajoy]

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's inside a misogynist. I mean, all the way back to in the 2016 primary when he went after Megyn Kelly for saying she had blood coming out of her wherever, insinuating that she could only be, like, asking him tough questions because she was on her period is so misogynistic and sexist. And that's who he is. He went on Access Hollywood bus and, and bragged about grabbing women by their genitals, like, by assaulting women. And the fact that, like, they just, it's, it's, it's infuriating. Which is also frustrating, too, of, like, how could people not question, like, not even consider that Trump is part of this Epstein situation. Like, best case scenario, he covered up for pedophilia Best case, he knew about it and did nothing. That's the best case scenario because those emails are damning. And he has a history of mistreating women, of assaulting women, of hush, of paying to hush women and having affairs, so many affairs. In fact, one of those emails that was released, do you have that?

[Angie]

Of course.

[April Ajoy]

It was between, I think it was between Michael Wolf and Jeffrey Epstein. And at the bottom here, he says now, the President was telling friends that he wasn't staying at the White House because of the shutdown. He was staying because he was, this is in quotes, banging Madeline. And Madeline was, I believe, his assistant. Yeah, Madeline Westerhout, who used to be a director of White House Oval Office operations.

[Tim Whitaker]

She was 28 years old, by the.

[April Ajoy]

Way, and this was in his first term.

[Tim Whitaker]

So in the email, it says that it was Trump's personal secretary. And it also says earlier up, it says that Bannon recalled that Trump took a particular interest in her. A leering Trump kept repeating, quote, she's got a way about her. His signature and creepy stamp of approval for young women.

[April Ajoy]

So right now, Madeline has since come out since these emails released and said that this is slander and that she did not have an affair with the President. But this, these are like private emails. And I don't know why they're not at least asking him.

[Tim Whitaker]

Also, why would she, why would she admit it? Why would she admit it? So Trump can sue her. I mean, that's Trump's playbook, right? He sues women into oblivion. He makes them, he, he, he scares them and intimidates them if they come forward. If she, how old would she be now? Maybe like 35, like close to our age. I wouldn't want to go forward and say, no, you're lying. If I knew that he can throw his entire weight behind the legal court process, tie me up for, for decades, maybe in court, may be responsible for hundreds of thousands of dollars of legal fees. Like, I, I get that. And again, you know, last episode last week, I took what, five minutes and just read accusation after accusation and credible, you know, court decided cases of Trump's sexual assaults. There is no reason that what, what this email says isn't true. Because Trump, we, we know is a liar. We know that Trump assaults women.

[April Ajoy]

We know that Trump has every single one of his wives.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. There's a video of him with Epstein looking at women and pointing at them. It was, it was a, it was like a new segment, for crying out loud. Why do we not believe? Like, why, why don't why? What is it about this?

[April Ajoy]

And they're not questioning him being part of it. A lot of these MAGA Christians, the Christian nationalists, are still hailing him a Christian hero, like a hero of Christianity. It is.

[Tim Whitaker]

It is wild. This is why we call it brainwashing, right?

[April Ajoy]

It's the Twilight Zone.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's the Twilight Zone. It is the. You cannot read the words of Jesus. Heck, you can't be. Look, I'm gonna say something extreme here. I'm just gonna say it, though. You can't be a decent human and think that Trump is saving America and is bringing godly values back to the country. You just can't. You have to be lying to yourself, or you just don't give a shit about actual pedophilia. I mean, these are the same people. April, it goes back to what we were saying earlier, right? How we were taught about the Christian persecution complex that was gonna happen to us. And then it turns out this government is persecuting Christians and they don't care. Well, remember the Wayfair Cabinet scandal? Remember when people were like, my God, Wayfarer cabinets are so high, they're trafficking children. I mean, people, pastors I knew were spreading that stuff. Remember when you were taught that. That. That there's a deep state cabal of Democrats who were drinking kids, blood and trafficking them, and that's why we can't vote for Hillary Clinton or for Joe Biden. Or the Pizzagate scandal where an actual person showed up to a pizza shop in D.C. with a gun shot off the lock of a door thinking it was a basement where children were being held, but it was just a storage closet. Or how about the movie the Sound of Freedom that was played all over churches about the warning of sex trafficking? Turned out the actual founder of the organization himself was. Was. Was an abuser, though. They'll buy that stuff and they'll push it. But when we have an actual case of a rich billionaire who is trafficking children to rich and powerful people, right? When we actually have evidence and survivors are coming forward, and we know that's a thousand plus people over decades, that that was international, suddenly these people have not a damn thing to say. Like, guys, you do know that you tried to warn me about the deep state that was trafficking children. We found it. But you don't like that your guy is implicated in this, that he was best friends with this, so you're gonna turn a blind eye to the fact that we had women on Tuesday show up in front of the White House and share their stories and Pictures of how when they were 14, 15, 16, 20, 21, how they were trafficked and shared among powerful men and molested and assaulted. And you have nothing to say about that? You gotta be fucking kidding me. Like, you must be joking if you want me to take you seriously. It's insane.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and I think they kind of tell on themselves, too, when a lot of their rebuttal is, well, Bill Clinton's on it. Well, what are you going to do when so and so Democrats on the list, like, put them in jail?

[Tim Whitaker]

What do you think we're going to do? Yeah, we're going to arrest them in prison.

[April Ajoy]

Right. But like, they're telling on themselves because they know if it was one of their guys, they don't want them to be thrown in prison. They will defend them. There's this blind loyalty that is taught in evangelical churches about not touching God's anointed that is transferred over to Donald Trump so they will defend him no matter what.

[Tim Whitaker]

No matter.

[April Ajoy]

For the record, I want anybody who participated in this child trafficking ring to go to jail. I don't care who they are.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't care, full stop. Don't care. Frankly, I've said on the air before, I think Bill Clinton is a sexual predator. I don't think Monica Lewinsky could have consented given the power dynamic. Are you kidding me? I would never vote for Bill Clinton again.

[April Ajoy]

Deserves a giant apology from all of society for the way that she was painted back during that whole scandal.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%. 100%. I. Yeah. Anyway, should we get to this Megyn Kelly clip?

[Melinda Hale]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

So I'm going to warn you, this is very intense language. It's, it's. This went viral, but we're sharing it for a reason. I'm not going to tell you why just yet, but we're going to play this clip from begging Kelly, who is essentially downplaying and minimizing and trying to split hairs between someone being 15 or being 10 and calling it, you know, pedophilia or not. So just a trigger warning. This is very intense language of sexual assault and all that stuff. So if that's something that you don't want to hear, maybe skip forward by maybe about a minute and a half and then come back. But here we go. This is what Megan Kelly said on the air talking about. Yeah. About Jeffrey Epstein.

[Megyn Kelly]

As for Epstein, I've said this before, but just as a reminder, I do know somebody very, very close to this case who is in a position to know virtually everything. Not everything, but virtually everything. And this person has told me from the start, years and years ago, that Jeffrey Epstein, in this person's view, was not a pedophile. This is this person's view who was there for a lot of this, but that he was into the barely legal type. Like he liked 15 year old girls. And I, I realize this is disgusting. I'm definitely not trying to make an excuse for this. I'm just giving you facts that he wasn't into like 8 year olds, but he liked the very young teen types that could pass for even younger than they were, but would look legal to a passerby. And that is what I believed and that was what I reliably was told for many years. And it wasn't until we heard from Pam Bondi that they had tens of thousands of videos of alleged, forgive me, they used to call it kitty porn. Now they call it child sexual abuse material on his computer that for the first time I thought, oh no, he was an actual pedophile. I mean, only a pedophile gets off on young children abuse videos. She's never clarified it. I don't know whether it's true. I have to be honest. I don't really trust Pam Bondi's word on the Epstein matters anymore.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Megyn Kelly]

So I don't know what's true about him, but we have yet to see anybody come forward and say I was a, like a, I was under 10, I was under 14 when I first came within his purview. Look, it's, you can say that's a distinction without a difference.

[April Ajoy]

No, it's not. I think there is a difference.

[Megyn Kelly]

There's, there's a difference between a 15 year old and a 5 year old. You know, it's just whatever.

[April Ajoy]

I have children are children.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm gonna.

[April Ajoy]

Fifteen is not barely legal. Fifteen is a child. I don't understand why she decided to open her mouth and say that. Out of all of the things that you could say about Epstein, debating whether or not he was a pedophile because he was into 15 year olds is a choice.

[Tim Whitaker]

By the way, in the beginning she says that her source says that Jeffrey Epstein was not a pedophile. Then your source sucks. Your source is obviously factually wrong. Like, like, I don't know why you're saying my source, that's super close, that knows all this stuff and then say something that we know is false. Like Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile. Like we watched this, we watched this survivor testimony. One of them came forward and said, when I was 14. This happened to me when I was 15. These are children.

[Rachel Maddow]

You.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, look, we all know that is ridiculous.

[Rachel Maddow]

And. And it's evil.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, there's no other word we have to use. It's evil for someone like this to be saying this. And again, we all know, April, if this was someone on the left saying this. Oh, look, they are. Look how they're. How they're protecting pedophiles. They want to groom kids, yada, yada, yada.

[April Ajoy]

But.

[Tim Whitaker]

But what was the response?

[April Ajoy]

Okay, okay. Before you pull it up, we pull it up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sorry.

[April Ajoy]

We have been actively looking at the Twitter accounts of a lot of prominent Christian nationalists. MAGA Christian people.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Megan Basham looked up, you know, Matt.

[Tim Whitaker]

Walsh, Benny Johnson, Michael Knowles.

[April Ajoy]

Most of them are saying nothing about Epstein. There are a few that are saying some. None of them are talking about Trump's involvement.

[Tim Whitaker]

None.

[April Ajoy]

Interestingly enough, Ali Beth Stuckey, though, the queen of toxic empathy. She's probably one of the biggest voices for women on this, the MAGA Christian world. Like, that's like her platform is being a good Christian woman.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wife.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah, Wife, Yeah. Mother.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, typical values, gender roles. You know, being gay is sinful. That kind of almost like trad wife adjacent kind of world.

[April Ajoy]

Right. She's been. I kept checking her feed. I had. I didn't see anything about the Epstein stuff since all those damning emails released last week. I mean, we. We read. We read them last week and then the few today. I mean, there's some. There's some questionable stuff in there about Donald Trump, but not a peep about it. But today. Today I found. I did find her mention Epstein, and this was what she said. I'm sorry, but trying to use that clip to argue that Megyn Kelly is somehow pro Jeffrey Epstein is absurd. Of course. Pedophilia and predation are vile and condemnable and illegal in every case. I did not hear her dispute that. So her only mention of Jeffrey Epstein was to defend Megyn Kelly's comments on Jeffrey Epstein, which is also a choice. That is a choice.

[Tim Whitaker]

It is. It's a choice. What do you say to this? I mean, how much more. April, you and I do this show every week, bringing receipt after receipt. We're not making this shit up. We're not sitting here like two talk radio hosts just saying things out of context or like, you know, making things up that aren't true. We're bringing you guys their own words. This is why we're so passionate about critiquing Christian nationalism, because this is what it leads to. Again, every accusation is a confession. The people who tell you to protect the kids actually do not want to protect kids when it comes down to it. And by the way, let me give you guys a link especially. Especially maybe for the substack audience out there who's like, I don't get it. How does this work? I don't understand. You have to understand that in white evangelicalism, and this is not exclusive just to white evangelicalism, but this is our tradition, it is very common for their faith leaders to be accused or have credible allegations of them abusing other people, usually women and or children. Okay? The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest conglomerate of evangelical churches, was found to have been hiding a decade's worth of sexual abuse in their churches. John MacArthur, a prominent evangelical before he died, one of the most, maybe prolific we can say in that space, who Ali Seki loved and adored and looked up to was, had credible allegations that he protected not one, but two men on his staff who molested their own children. He was never told to step down. There are receipts, there are emails about this. There are police files or filings about that story. One of the men is currently serving time in prison for molesting his children. John MacArthur was never told to step down. He never lost his book deals. And when he died, he was hailed as a faithful gospel preacher in that space. And we can give example after example. I'll give one more. Robert Morris, pastor of what at one time was America's largest church in the US and he actually rose up the ranks to become a pastor on Trump's Faith Advisory Council. Well, it turned out that in the 80s, he molested a child when he was in his 20s. And he buried it. She was 12. And he buried it. And then he confessed his sin, but made it seem like it was just an affair. Okay. And the victim fought for decades to find justice. Now he's being convicted finally of his crimes and will serve a very light sentence, in my opinion. But what I'm trying to tell you is that it's very common in these spaces to have situations like that. And like April said a second ago, there's a mantra. It's usually unspoken. Sometimes it's not where you essentially don't touch God's anointed. So how does this relate to Trump? Well, when you're told by your pastors, by your faith leaders, by authors, by evangelists, by prophets that Trump is being used by God to drain the swamp, that Trump is restoring family values back to America, that Trump is standing for Christian principles, he becomes someone who is now God's anointed in your mind. So even when you have damning emails by the world's most prolific pedophile that we know of, serving the elite billionaire class, saying that Donald Trump is the dog that hasn't barked yet, even when you have that email coming out, or when you have Epstein in a deposition pleading the fifth when he asks about if Trump liked young girls, it doesn't matter, because you're touching God's anointed. That's how deep the brainwashing runs in these spaces.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what it is. That's how it works.

[April Ajoy]

They give so much cover for abuse in a lot of these spaces. So it's easy to carry that over into the political sphere because you have to protect the church, you have to protect the faith, you protect the powerful because it's a bad witness if it comes out. So they protect their narrative more than anything.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, 100%. I mean, look, Ali Sucky is saying that Megan Basham, who's a Daily Wire journalist, who right now, she's all upset about, like, what was she mad about the other day? Oh, she. She's mad that Christianity Today just brought on the first ever black CEO to run the organization. She's like. She's whining about that right now. Not a peep from her about the Epstein files, but she wants you to know, according to her, her Twitter post. Okay, just got out of screening and as promised, my flash review of Wicked 2, which begins with my argument that Wicked is a conservative story. Yes, it is. I explain. And some thoughts for those scandalized that I would take my sixth grader to this PG film. That's what she's talking about right now. How Wicked is a conservative story.

[April Ajoy]

I don't know how you can watch Wicked and think this is a pro conservative story. Oh, my God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, this is it. This is the world we live in. This is the world we live in. It's wild.

[April Ajoy]

It is wild. They hear about everything except things that actually cause harm.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%. You're tuned into Auto intelligence live from AutoTrader, where data, tools and your preferences sync to make your car shopping smooth. They're searching inventory. Oh, yeah.

[Angie]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[Angie]

So true.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's smarter car shopping.

[Melinda Hale]

Oh, just for you.

[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

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[Melinda Hale]

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[April Ajoy]

Where you'll find new door busters and big savings. But hurry. Black Friday deals.

[Melinda Hale]

And Saturday, November 29th.

[April Ajoy]

Shop now at BestBuy.com, best Buy. Imagine that.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey, everyone. This is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, friends, thanks for hanging in there. Shall we get to our light hearted fun segment?

[April Ajoy]

Yes, let's get to it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ajoy]

We Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, I gotta pull this video up. I have not watched it. You told me to blind react.

[April Ajoy]

Well, because you saw my reaction when I blind reacted earlier.

[Tim Whitaker]

And, okay, I found it.

[April Ajoy]

It's just. It's out. It's. It's a thing. So let's start.

[Tim Whitaker]

The caption says, catfish. Catfish skull reveals Jesus.

[April Ajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ajoy]

Make sure your sound's on.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, thank you. You're so good. All right, here we go.

[April Ajoy]

You gotta watch this.

[Tim Whitaker]

Most people don't know what this is.

[Melinda Hale]

What is that?

[Tim Whitaker]

That is a catfish skull. Skull of a catfish. But once you see this, you'll understand it. Do you see. Do you see what I see? What you can see right there? Do you see the crucifix?

[Melinda Hale]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

The cross of Jesus on the cross?

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

And on the back, you see the shield of David.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Melinda Hale]

That's wild.

[Tim Whitaker]

Watch this part. See that? These are the rocks in the catfish's head. Watch this. Every catfish has. Has two rocks like that. They're unique, and there's no two like it in the world. And that represents the dice that were thrown upon the cloth. No, he did not. He did not just say that. They represent the dice.

[April Ajoy]

That was so weird.

[Tim Whitaker]

We are so weird.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tim Whitaker]

What was that? Can you imagine?

[April Ajoy]

Like, gods in heaven. They're like, hey, how are we gonna prove my existence? I know. Let's put two little rocks inside a catfish, and when you break it open, you'll know it's the dice that were thrown.

[Tim Whitaker]

Honestly, I see, like, a monkey with a top hat more than I see a crucifix. Do you see it kind of like. I see that way more.

[April Ajoy]

Honestly. It looks like one of the monkeys in Wicked.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Or like in Donkey Kong country. Or, like. Yeah, something like that. I don't see acoustic effects at all. And then the Shield of Daemon.

[April Ajoy]

I mean, I can see across a little.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't see it. I don't see anything. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I mean, how would he know what a Shield of David even looks like? I, I.

[April Ajoy]

Who's the first person that saw this? And, like, it's proof. It's proof.

[Tim Whitaker]

Who's this creator? Because she, she teased it up as, like, something amazing. What did she say?

[April Ajoy]

You gotta watch this.

[Tim Whitaker]

You gotta watch this. You gotta watch this, guys.

[April Ajoy]

What's her name?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, I sent it to you on Instagram. Let me see what her name is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my goodness.

[April Ajoy]

She does similar things too, where it's, like, proof.

[Tim Whitaker]

You've got to see this.

[April Ajoy]

So stupid. Hold on.

[Tim Whitaker]

I love the end. And these are the two dice that was thrown upon the cross.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, Tracy. Her name is Tracy Costin. Costin. Most of her stuff is responding to things, but she's also done things of, like, these are signs that Jesus is coming back tomorrow.

[Tim Whitaker]

They. So let me get this straight. They will believe a crucifix in a catfish skull and a Shield of David in a catfish skull and the dice that were used to crucify Jesus in a catfish skull. But they won't believe the Epstein emails implicating Trump. Like, do I have that right? Okay, so Trump is a dog that hasn't barked yet. Oh, that's. No, that's deep state. That's a forgery. But you've got to see this. It's a catfish. But every catfish has the crucifix inside of it, proving that Jesus is real.

[April Ajoy]

I know.

[Rachel Maddow]

Okay.

[April Ajoy]

They're like, they're playing chess. Like, they're doing. They have their, like, tin foil hats on and making all these elaborate connections for, like, blown away. The pizza gate, the QAnon stuff. Jesus coming back in September, Israel doing, like, they connect all these weird things that actually are not connected, and then you have a giant sign and neon lights that says Trump is connected to Epstein, and they're like, no, he's not.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't see it.

[April Ajoy]

No, he's not.

[Tim Whitaker]

Deep state. Fake news.

[Angie]

Fake news.

[Tim Whitaker]

They just hate God. They hate God. Okay, can I give one more thought, and then we'll. We'll wrap it up. We are pretty much out of time, but just two minutes. I do think. I always wonder, like, how do people look at Trump and see him lie routinely and build an alternate universe and believe it?

[Rachel Maddow]

And.

[Tim Whitaker]

Look, I don't want to disparage people who believe in the supernatural. That is not my point here. I'm gonna speak just from my tradition. When you're taught as a child that a talking snake was real in the Garden of Eden, or that the Earth was made in seven literal days, or that, you know, some of these miracles are real and science and evolution is false, you're kind of set up to believe, like, a different kind of reality from the beginning. So I think it's really easy for people to dismiss what's right in front of them when you've been kind of conditioned to do that from the beginning. Right. Wait, snakes don't talk? Well, no, they actually do, Tim, because the Bible is God's word, and in this story, the serpent, which really isn't even a snake, but they'll say a snake talked. Oh, okay. I believe that now. Right. You're kind of taught to believe from these authority structures. And I think that's how it works with Trump, is that for so many of these people, Trump is their epistemology. He is their source for truth. So if Trump says the election was stolen, even though it was, it wasn't. Oh, no, the election was stolen. If Trump says that's fake news, even though it's not, that's fake news. If Trump says he didn't like Jeffrey Epstein, even though the files say differently, that's how it goes. I think that's how the connection is made in my head that rationalizes this.

[April Ajoy]

That's a good point, because I have literally heard people in my churches growing up that believed that Satan put dinosaur fossils in the ground to trick us into thinking the earth is old.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And I want to be clear. This is not a disparagement of people who believe in supernatural things. I mean, I believe in a physical resurrection still. I realize that's fanciful in a lot of ways, but I still believe it. So it's not about saying you can't believe things that are outlandish, but it's interesting seeing like the alternate universe that this evangelical fundamentalism builds on all these different things. Right? Oh, you're not. You're not born gay. It's a choice. You're living a lifestyle. No, I'm not. No. Yes, yes you are. It's a lifestyle choice. Right. They invent their own reality, tell people this is the absolute truth of everything, and if you don't succumb to their reality, you're somehow the one living in delusional land. It's very strange.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, well, who would have thunk that a cat is out there doing the Lord's work, Just existing and having to die and get torn apart.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

In order to prove God. Whatever. Okay, moving on. We're so weird.

[Tim Whitaker]

We are weird. That's why we have a segment called Weird Christian BLEEP Friends. Thank you so much for being here. Like we said, we are going live on Tuesday on Thanksgiving week. We're going live on Tuesday. I'll pre record on Thursday. So that's happening. It's an exception to the rule. But we'll be back here live at 12 o' clock Eastern on Tuesday. We'll have a fun episode. I really honestly, if you're a substack viewer, I really want to hear from you on Tuesday's live. I want your feedback, I want your questions, I want to know what you think about the content that we cover from a maybe a non evangelical perspective. It just helps us know how to explain this stuff to people who did not grow up in the bubble that we grew up in. So we'll see you here Tuesday at 12 o' clock Eastern. Thank you so much for being here, friends. As always, make sure to like this video. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Find us on podcast givingtuesdays coming up. And for more information about the new evangelicals, you can go to thenewevangelicals.com Is that everything?

[April Ajoy]

I think so. Thank you everybody for all the super chats and for being here and all the things. We'll see you Tuesday.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

I'm April A joy.

[Tim Whitaker]

See ya.

[April Ajoy]

Bye.