68. MAGA Christians Are Victims for a Bad Grade but Are Cool With Blowing Up Boats

Summary

The Tim & April Show – Episode 68

Podcast: The Tim & April Show by The New Evangelicals
Title: MAGA Christians Are Victims for a Bad Grade but Are Cool With Blowing Up Boats
Date: December 5, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the controversy surrounding an Oklahoma University (OU) psychology student's reaction paper on gender, the national conservative media’s framing of her as a victim of “Christian persecution” after she received a zero, and the broader implications regarding faith, truth, and Christian nationalism in American culture. The hosts break down the assignment, the student’s essay, reactions from faculty and media, and juxtapose this manufactured outrage with the Christian right’s defense of actual violence—namely, the celebration of extrajudicial killings. They also cover hypocrisy in conservative discourse and critique a bizarre take from Erica Kirk on women "replacing relationships with government."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tim's Man Cold, Stranger Things, and Fundraising Success (01:52–06:40)

• Tim is hosting while sick, cracking jokes about a "man cold" and gearing up for the show on DayQuil and coffee.
• Chat about “Stranger Things,” Game of Thrones, and the shared cultural moments.
• Shoutout: The New Evangelicals reached a $20k Giving Tuesday goal—Tim expresses gratitude.

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2. The “Persecuted Student” Case – Setting the Scene (06:46–13:10)

• Background: OU junior psychology major Samantha Fulnecki receives a zero on an essay reacting to an article on gender and bullying. Right-wing media, including Fox News and Turning Point, frame her as a Christian martyr.
• April's assessment: “This story shines a light on the Christian nationalist playbook—even if the players themselves might not identify as such.”

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3. Review of the Assignment and Essay (09:13–17:50)

• Rubric Detailed:
  • Required 650-word essay critically engaging with a peer-reviewed article—not merely a summary.
  • Points awarded for direct engagement, critical thinking, clarity (10+10+5).
• Hosts read Samantha's essay aloud [13:11]:
  • Her “argument”: Gender is binary because “God made male and female,” gender stereotypes are God’s design; claims society pushes “demonic lies” about nonbinary identities; paper ends with a prayer.
  • No critical engagement with the assigned article, no empirical citations, mostly religious assertion.

Memorable Quote (April):

“I was shocked...even for a freshman, that is a bad paper. That’s just bad writing. I was writing better papers than that in high school.” (17:56)

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4. Faculty Responses and Grading Rationale (20:03–27:11)

• TA’s detailed feedback [21:22]:
  • Not about "beliefs" but failing to follow instructions, using personal ideology over evidence, and being offensive (e.g. calling groups 'demonic').
  • Encouraged use of evidence and offered further discussion.
• Prof. Waldron echoes TA; points out lack of respect, no academic support, and concern over comments excusing bullying.
• Hosts clarify: No Bible verses were quoted, only referenced without citation.

Notable Moment (Tim):

“When you write an essay in a scientific class just regurgitating what you learned in high-control fundamentalist Christianity, it’s not going to hold up.” (26:00)

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5. Media Blowup & The “Christian Nationalist Playbook” (32:42–47:16)

• Samantha's mother: Christy Fulnecki, a Missouri lawyer involved in January 6 defense and anti-mask legal activism.
• First Contact: Samantha emailed the Governor of Oklahoma before appealing to her professor—suggests orchestration.
• Governor Stitt’s Tweet: Frames it as First Amendment issue; calls for investigation.
• Hosts’ Analysis: This is a play for staged martyrdom in conservative media. “They have a persecution kink.”
• April’s personal story: Attempted to get “persecuted” as a child for being Christian in public school, highlighting how this narrative is ingrained in evangelical cultural formation.

Notable Quote (Tim):

“This is making of a martyr...something is suspicious here… Highly—feels like it was planned, coordinated.” (33:56)

Quote (April):

“If you are taught that Christians are persecuted, especially in public schools, of course you try to manufacture it.”

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6. Media Tour & Dissecting the Persecution Narrative (47:16–63:34)

• Samantha tours Fox News, CPAC, receives state awards; lauded as a “warrior for Christ.”
• Fox News segment: Host completely misrepresents rubric and grading.
• Hosts dissect: The reality is that she received every freedom to express her views and was simply graded on academic merit, not beliefs.
• Victimhood irony: Samantha is now a right-wing celebrity—“it pays to be persecuted”—yet still playing the martyr.

Notable Exchange:

• Tim [49:45]: “They want you to be sheep. They want you to believe these people are truth tellers. It’s wild to watch it in real time.”
• April: “If she gets a book deal, I hope she has a ghostwriter based on that essay.”

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7. Hypocrisy on Persecution vs. Real Harm (83:01–85:16)

• Shift in topic: Hosts juxtapose the manufactured outrage over Samantha's zero with MAGA/conservative delight at real violence.
  • E.g. Pete Hegseth’s “double tap” strike on Venezuelan boats, Megyn Kelly’s cruel wish for suffering, right-wing accounts celebrating extrajudicial killings.
• Hosts' outrage:
  • “These people are not... They are demented. They are twisted with their logic and it kills people. We're killing people.”
  • MAGAmericans use outrage only for in-group victimhood while celebrating state violence on “out-groups.”

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8. Conservative “Intellectualism” and the “Weird Christian” Segment (86:21–94:03)

• Erica Kirk’s viral take: Claims NYC women voters are looking to "replace relationships with government"—hosts are baffled by the incoherence.
• Broader point: Conservative thought leaders (Kirk, Stuckey) are elevated despite nonsensical takes; distract from real, urgent issues such as healthcare, immigration, and justice.

Notable Quotes:

• April (on Erica Kirk):

  “What rambling bull is she saying? How is the government a replacement for relationship and in Manhattan? Lol.” (95:44)

• Tim:

  “This is... the apex of conservative intellectualism. This is it. This is what they're offering the world.” (90:32)

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• April, on the essay’s quality:

  “That is not an academic essay whatsoever.” (19:04)

• Tim, on the Christian nationalist playbook:

  “It’s a planned persecution. These people have a persecution kink.” (43:52)

• April, on empirical evidence:

  “You are in academia, girl.” (60:01)

• Tim, on dogma vs. truth:

  “You’re not standing on truth. You’re standing on dogma. They have reinvented the word truth to mean dogma. For them, empirical data is not true; their dogma is true.” (46:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:46: Introduction to the Oklahoma student controversy
• 09:13-12:10: Student assignment rubric and expectations
• 13:11-17:50: Reading and dissecting the controversial student essay
• 21:22: TA’s detailed response and grading rationale
• 32:42: Student's orchestrated victim story and governor’s involvement
• 47:16-54:05: Conservative media tour and martyrdom narrative
• 83:01-85:16: Real harm celebrated by Christian nationalists vs. “persecution” narrative
• 86:21-94:03: Erica Kirk’s “replacement relationship” take and critique of conservative intellectualism

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Notable Moments

• The Hosts’ Empathy for Professors (31:59):
  April: “Professors feel like they’re walking on eggshells… the power dynamic has shifted. When I went to college, your opinions didn’t matter—you were there to learn.”
• Comparison with Actual Persecution (75:30):
  April: “Their version of persecution is, you did not succumb to my dogma, therefore I’m being persecuted because you won’t let me erase who you are... No, you’re just being an asshole who’s also not citing sources.”
• Critical Reflection on Movement Tactics (78:09):
  Tim: “We cover this stuff every week to prove our thesis that we’re not making this stuff up. That’s the general idea.”

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Tone and Language

• Conversational, snarky, at times exasperated but determined to break down the issues with clarity and compassion.
• Hosts balance personal anecdotes, sarcasm, and moments of theological seriousness.
• Quotes and reactions maintain the candor, humor, and frustration characteristic to the show.

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Conclusion

This episode is a deep dive into how the Christian right manufactures and weaponizes “persecution” narratives, contrasting trivial complaints about grading with their disregard for genuine harm, and elevating poorly reasoned, low-quality takes to national prominence—while real injustices go ignored. The Tim and April Show pulls no punches in calling out the hypocrisy, disinformation, and dangerous playbook of Christian nationalism with characteristic humor, lived experience, and sharp analysis.

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For anyone unfamiliar with the episode:
This is an unflinching look at how Christian nationalist victimhood is constructed, why it’s rewarded, and how it’s a smokescreen for both poor academic rigor and a deep-seated campaign against justice and inclusion. If you want a blend of sharp satire, theological critique, and cultural observation at the intersection of faith and politics, this is a must-hear episode.

Transcript

[April Ojoul]

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[April Ojoul]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ojoul]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Fairy Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[April Ojoul]

The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I am April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I am sick Tim Whitaker.

[April Ojoul]

Hello, sick Tim Whitaker. It's nice.

[Tim Whitaker]

I figured I just get it out right away. I have a man cold. I'm sick. I'm on day Quill.

[April Ojoul]

Dying.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm dying. I barely survived last night. It was horrible. So I had the cough.

[April Ojoul]

Are you a mouth breather? Naturally. What is that like the nose? Like, when I get sick, I have a hard time sleeping because I like, I do not function well if I can't breathe out of my nose.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. I think I'm more a mouth breather type, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. But I woke up with like that real. You know like when you wake up and you're coughing and it just hurts in case it's all stuck in there and you gotta like get it up and you're just like, oh, why? Why?

[April Ojoul]

How?

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't understand. But it's all good. I am on Dayquil. I have two cups of coffee in me. I would not miss the show for the world. So I'm gonna power through. I'm gonna muster up all of my man courage, my alpha male, you know, lion, roar, roar, roar, energy, and get through this show.

[April Ojoul]

I appreciate that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Anything for you, April.

[April Ojoul]

You can do this. I have done podcast episodes with strep and Covid and the flu, so I'm proud of you for doing this.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's not make this all about you. This is about me today. I'm the sick one.

[April Ojoul]

I am on my period. Oh, that helps. I guess we're both a real extra. I don't know, Moody.

[Tim Whitaker]

Maybe it's gonna make me laugh. I'm gonna cough so hard.

[April Ojoul]

Speaking of mouth breathers, do you watch Stranger Things?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, I do. I do. No spoilers.

[April Ojoul]

No spoilers.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Wow. Are you caught up on the most recent season?

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm caught up.

[April Ojoul]

I watched it last night. Like, fit, like. So they're doing two drops. They did four episodes in the first drop. The next round comes on Christmas Day. But, oh, my gosh, the way that last episode ended.

No spoilers. But I.

[Tim Whitaker]

None.

[April Ojoul]

I was, like, squealing at the tv. I haven't, like, yelled at the TV like that since Arya Stark stabbed the Night King.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I don't know what that is, but I will say I haven't yelled or squealed like that since I watched Endgame and. And when Captain America got Thor's hammer because he was worthy and then beat up Thanos. Remember that moment?

[April Ojoul]

That was a good moment.

[Tim Whitaker]

That was a good moment. It was like, one of those moments where you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. No, it was great. I mean, Stranger Things is maybe. Well, it's been going on for almost a decade. It's almost 10 years old, which is crazy. It's a fantastic show. I'm a huge fan from top to bottom. How they produced it, how it's written, and I'm very much into it. In fact, I texted you last night, I'm watching Stranger Things. You're like, oh, my gosh, me too. It turned out we were watching the same episode and at the same time because I guess we're connected that way now because we love so much.

[April Ojoul]

Now they know that me asking you, that was staged.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Rude.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sorry. Yeah, I.

[April Ojoul]

Sorry. It wasn't authentic. We planned to talk about Stranger Things. We were so excited about it. By the way, the show I referenced was Game of Thrones.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, cool. That's great.

[April Ojoul]

You've never watched Game of Thrones?

[Tim Whitaker]

No. Am I supposed to.

[April Ojoul]

I mean, I loved Game of Thrones, but the ending does kind of put a damper on it. But I still think it's worth it. It's really, it's really, really good.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's how the ending of Lost was. I, I was so into Lost and I watched the final episode and was like, man, it was just kind of a letdown personally. So, but anyway, hey, friends, welcome into the show. Obviously, hello to all of our friends over at Substack Tuning in and on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to give this stream a like, subscribe to the channel. We go live every Thursday at 12 o' clock Eastern and we drop a prerecord every Tuesday. If you're listening on podcasts. Thank you so much. It means the world. Also want to say thank you. The New Evangelicals hit their fundraising goal this week for giving Tuesday. Yay. We raised $10,000, which was matched by an anonymous donor making it $20,000, which is great because this show is produced by the New Evangelicals, a nonprofit organization. And, and so it really ensures that we're walking into 2026. You know, we're off to a great start. Obviously we're doing our end of year giving campaign to raise even more money, but thank you so much. It means the world. What else do I have to mention? Oh, we do read all super chats live on the air. Like, we got one that just came in. Someone is kind of spoiling what's coming up, but coming from a C student, I know an essay written the night before it's due when I see one. Feel better. Tim Dalk Dogen. Get into that in a minute, friends. But yeah, yeah, just thank you for being here. It means the world. The New Evangelicals is a nonprofit organization that I started helping people find a better path forward in their faith. So take a look if you're into that.

[April Ojoul]

Yay. Yay. Shall we dive right in?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh my God, let's get into it. Geez.

[April Ojoul]

We're going to focus on this story because.

I think it's, it's relevant more than what's actually happening. But I think it shines a light on just kind of this Christian nationalist playbook. Now, I don't think the people, the players involved would even identify as a Christian nationalist. And we can talk more about that in a second.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

So basically the gist is there was an Oklahoma University. Is it Oklahoma University or University of Oklahoma? I owe you because it says, oh, you. But I feel like, I feel like.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oklahoma University of Oklahoma I don't know. I live in New Jersey, so I would not know the answer to that question.

[April Ojoul]

Why is to be a Texas Longhorn fan. So we always had arrival rate with Oklahoma, but regardless.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

A student goes to ou, and she is a psychology major. She is a junior. She was in a psychology class and she was asked. The class was asked to write a 650 word essay on reacting to an academic article about gender.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ojoul]

And she submits. This is paraphrasing and we'll get into all the details, but she submits her essay. She basically says, well, transgender bad because Bible.

And she got a zero for that. For the, you know, the professor, the ta, the teacher assistant responded and gave reasons for why she got the zero. She then blows this up, takes it to the press and the media and the government, and now it's turned into this persecution story. And she claims she only got a zero because. Because she was standing up for her faith. So that is the story that Fox News and Turning Point and all these right wing media outlets are running with. This is another proof of Christian persecution in this country. Samantha F. Necki is her name. She's now being branded a warrior for Christ, a Christian hero. So that's what. That's the headline. So I feel like it would be important for one. Let's read the rubric of what was asked and then we're gonna actually read her entire paper.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I got. I lost her essay that I pulled.

[April Ojoul]

Oh, you did?

[Tim Whitaker]

Multiply it while you're. Yeah, while you're talking about it. I can pull it again.

[April Ojoul]

Do you have the rubric? Because you could go ahead and pull that up.

[Tim Whitaker]

That I do have.

[April Ojoul]

Okay. Pull up the rubric. I'm gonna read this.

[Tim Whitaker]

I can do this. Okay, the rubric. Here's the rubric.

[April Ojoul]

And I have her essay too, on my phone.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, you do? Okay.

[April Ojoul]

You can't find it, but I do think having it on the screen will be beneficial.

[Tim Whitaker]

I agree.

[April Ojoul]

Okay, so this is the rubric. This is part one of the rubric. The assignment says you must write a 650 words body of text, double spaced reaction paper demonstrating that you read the assigned article and includes a thoughtful reaction to the material presented in the article. Points will be deducted when papers are deficient in any of these areas. I will deduct 10 points if your paper is between 620 and 649 words. And I will not give credit for papers under 620 words. Papers not turned in by the deadline will not receive credit. Please remember that Your reaction paper should not be a summary but rather a thoughtful discussion of some aspect of the article. Possible approaches to reaction papers include 1. A discussion of why you feel the topic is important and worthy of study or not. 2. An application of the study or results to your own experiences.

And then it says there are other possibilities as well. The best reaction papers illustrate that students have read the assigned materials and engaged in critical thinking about some aspect of the article has formatting requirements, grading reactions. Reaction papers are graded on a 25 point scale and are evaluated based on the following does the paper show a clear tie in to the assigned article? 10 points. Does the paper present a thoughtful reaction or response to the article rather than a summary? 10 points. And then is the paper clearly written? 5 points. So that was the rubric. I'm gonna. Did you find her. Her dealio?

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm so sorry, I'm so out of it. I know I had it. I put it in a PDF in my folder but now it's not there.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah, I know. I remember. You showed it to me.

[Tim Whitaker]

I did show it to you and then I did it.

[April Ojoul]

Okay, I'm going to read while you're still looking for it. There are actually a few more possibilities in the rubric that the Turning Point picture didn't show. So the image we just showed was from Turning Point. It was. Here's the rest of the rubric. So possible approaches to reaction papers include. I included the first two. 3. An application of the study or results to observations about other behaviors. 4. Linking the objectives or findings from the assigned article to other domains of development or other findings that we read about or discuss in class. 5. A suggestion for further studies or experiments that might help researchers better understand the topic being studied. 6. Alternate interpretations of the researchers findings. 7. A discussion of how development in this domain might proceed differently at other developmental stages. Stages. 8. Your own thoughts about how development proceeds in the domain article.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so cool.

[April Ojoul]

So I got it. That's the rubric.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. So essentially what I hear a lot of is read this article, critically engage with it, offer your perspective. But critically engage with the article is the big thing.

[April Ojoul]

Critically engaged with. Like you need to show clearly that you read the article by saying something about the article and then either disagreeing or expounding on it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. You ready to read this bad boy?

[April Ojoul]

Yes. So here is her essay I'm pulling up in word.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sorry. It's the best I could do.

[April Ojoul]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Is that good?

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. And I believe the article. I don't have the actual article in front of me that she was responding to.

But I know it was about basically gender and bullying and that's from like a psychological, like a psychology perspective. Okay, so here is her article ready or her essay.

This article was very thought provoking and caused me to thoroughly evaluate the idea of gender and the role it plays in our society. The article discussed peers using teasing as a way to enforce gender norms. I do not necessarily see this as a problem. God made male and female and made us differently from each other on purpose and for a purpose. God is very intentional with what he makes, and I believe trying to change that would only do more harm. Gender roles and tendencies should not be considered stereotypes. Women naturally want to do womanly things because God created us with those womanly desires in our hearts. The same goes for men. God created men in the image of his courage and strength and he created women in the image of his beauty. He intentionally created women differently than men and we should live our lives with that in mind. It is frustrating to me when I read articles like this and discussion posts from my classmates of so many people trying to conform to the same mundane opinion so they do not step on people's toes. I think that is a cowardly and insincere way to live. It is important to use the freedom of speech we have been given in this country, and I personally believe that eliminating gender in our society would be detrimental as it pulls us farther from God's original plan for humans. It is perfectly normal for kids to follow gender stereotypes because that is how God made us. The reason so many girls want to feel womanly and care for others in a motherly way is not because they feel pressured to fit into social norms. It is because God created and chose them to reflect his beauty and his compassion in that way. In Genesis, God says that it is not good for man to be alone, so he created a helper for man which is a woman. Many people assume the word helper in this context to be condescending and offensive to women. However, the original word in Hebrew is ezer kinedo and that directly translates to helper equal to. Additionally, God describes Himself in the Bible using Ezekiel or helper, and he describes His.

Holy Spirit as our helper as well. This shows the importance God places on the role of the helper Women's Roles God does not view women as less significant than men. He created us with such intentionally. She misspelled that. He created us with such intentionally and care and he made women in his image of being a helper and in the image of His Beauty. If leaning into that role means I am, quote, following gender stereotypes, then I am happy to be following a stereotype that aligns with the gifts and abilities God gave me as a woman. I do not think men and women are pressured to be more masculine or feminine. I strongly disagree with the idea from the article that encouraging acceptance of diverse gender expressions could improve students confidence. Society pushing the lie that there are multiple genders and everyone should be whatever they want to be is demonic and severely harms American youth. I do not want kids to be teased or bullied in school. However, pushing the lie that everyone has their own truth and everyone can do whatever they want and be whoever they want is not biblical whatsoever. The Bible says that our lives are not our own, but that our lives and bodies belong to the Lord for His glory. I live my life based on this truth and firmly believe that there would be less gender issues and insecurities in children if they were raised knowing that they do not belong to themselves, but they belong to the Lord.

[Tim Whitaker]

The end.

[April Ojoul]

Hold on. I think there's more.

[Tim Whitaker]

Is there more?

[April Ojoul]

Did she say her prayer?

[Tim Whitaker]

Is there a prayer at the end? I pulled this from an article.

[April Ojoul]

Oh, I've got the final piece. There's one final paragraph. I've got it. Overall, reading articles such as this one encourage me to one day raise my children knowing that they have a heavenly father who loves them and cherishes them deeply and that having their identity firmly rooted in who he is will give them the satisfaction and acceptance that the world can never provide for them. That was one sentence. My prayer for the world and specifically for American society and youth is that they would not believe the lies being spread from Satan that make them believe they are better off as another gender than what God made them. I pray they. I pray that they feel God's love and acceptance as who he originally created them to be.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh boy. Wow.

Wow. That is a doozy of an article.

[April Ojoul]

That is a very poorly written paper. I was shocked when I found. When I read that, I was like, this has to be a freshman. And even for a freshman level, that is a bad. Like, that's just bad writing. I was writing better papers than that in high school.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's. It's not very impressive and it doesn't really meet the standard that was put out by engaging with the article. The.

[News Reporter]

The.

[Tim Whitaker]

Samantha doesn't do that at all in this piece. She goes on some rant about and she just echoes all the right wing Christian fundamentalist talking points.

[Melinda Hale]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

That don't actually Add up. Like, it doesn't talk about the data that we have that gender affirming care actually saves lives. It doesn't. It doesn't affirm any of those things. It's just, it's just dogma. Satan, the Bible, or, you know, how God designed. She doesn't even quote the Bible. Is there even one Bible verse in there?

[April Ojoul]

No, no, no. That's the thing. Turning Point and Fox News, they were, they were saying that she got a zero for quoting the Bible. She never once quotes the Bible. She references the Bible, she says God says this, but there's no citation or anything. And that's the thing. Like, okay, I.

I'm a pretty well educated person. I have my undergrad degree. I have a graduate degree of my master's in journalism. And I was an overachiever. Like, I was a straight A student to a fault. Like, I could not. Like, I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm just saying, like, I know how to do school.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Like, when you are responding to an article, you always at least cite the title of the article. Like the article called by whatever brings up good points. Like, she just says this article. She doesn't cite any. Like, this is written by someone that I would say is just not. Like, I don't know, it's just not academic. That's. That's not. That is not an academic essay whatsoever. I did find the title for the article that she responded to this according to Wikipedia, but says it was called Relations among Gender Typicality, Peer Relations and Mental Health.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

So I. All right, so she writes this paper air quotes, and then she gets a grade of zero. Is that right?

[April Ojoul]

She gets a grade of zero. So it was a TA teacher assistant that gave the grade that was over it. And that's pretty normal. So a TA is typically a graduate student that is helping assist in undergrad classes as part of their education. Like, my, my spouse is a professor and they have a TA that helps them and sometimes they'll grade on their behalf. But I mean, every university does it differently. Every class does it differently. So. So Samantha gets this grade from the professor's Mel Kurf. And so this was the response like. And I've actually felt like this was a very. Like, the, The TA did not just give a zero with no explanation.

And wrote this very long explanation for why. Okay, so Here is the TA's response for why Samantha received.

[Tim Whitaker]

By the way, for those who are. Are listening on podcast, her name says Mel Kurth. Parentheses pronouns she, they. That's important for later on. Keep that in mind.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah, so in the interactions in the professor's, in all the screen grabs I've seen, pronouns are clearly listed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ojoul]

Behind the professor's name. Okay, so the TA says, please note that I am not deducting points because you have certain beliefs, but instead I am deducting points for you Posting a reaction paper that does not answer the questions for this assignment, contradicts itself heavily, uses personal ideology over empirical evidence in a scientific class, and is at times offensive. While you are entitled to your own personal beliefs, there is an appropriate time or place to implement them in your reflections. I encourage all students to question or challenge the course material with other empirical findings or testable hypotheses. But using your own personal beliefs to argue against the findings of not only this article, but but the findings of countless articles across psychology, biology, sociology, et cetera is not best practice. You argue that abiding by normative gender roles is beneficial. It is perfectly fine to believe this, but to then say that everyone should act the same while also saying that people aren't pressured into gendered expectations is contradictory, especially since your arguments reflect a religious pressure to act in gender stereotypical ways. I noticed that in her paper too.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ojoul]

You can say that strict gender norms don't create gender stereotypes, but that isn't true by definition of what a stereotype is. Please note that acknowledging gender stereotypes does not immediately denote a negative connotation, a nuance that this article discusses. Additionally, to call an entire group of people demonic is highly offensive, especially a minoritized population. You are entitled to your own beliefs, but this isn't a vague narrative of quote society pushes lies, end quote, but instead the result of countless years developing psychological and scientific evidence for these claims and directly interacting with the communities involved. You may personally disagree with this, but that doesn't change the fact that every major psychological, medical, pediatric, and psychiatric association in the United States acknowledges that biologically and.

Physiologically, sex and gender is neither binary nor fixed. I implore you apply some more perspective and empathy in your work. If you personally disagree with the findings, then by all means share your criticisms, but make sure to do so in a way that is appropriate and using the methodology of empirical psychology as aligned with the learning goals in this class. If you have any additional questions or concerns about this, or would like some additional educational resources, I would be happy to discuss this further and provide you with them.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is a really eloquent response. That is detailed, has cites, evidence, gives, gives a path forward, leaves it or open for Discussion. She did a great job.

[April Ojoul]

And I feel like too. So you mentioned to the professor. She, they. So the t. The TA pronouns clearly say she. They.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

In. In her. Their info and their. Their name.

I. I feel like that was a very kind response, actually from reading an article that she basically called that TA demonic.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And also she points out with empirical evidence how her own essay is contradictory, how it doesn't cite actual evidence. It's.

[April Ojoul]

She.

[Tim Whitaker]

She does a great job of separating. Hey, you can believe whatever you want, but in this class, here's what I'm asking you to do. And you did not meet that requirement. Right. So that's important. Now the other TA also wrote. Right. A comment.

[April Ojoul]

No, not the other ta. So. Yeah. So the actual professor.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, okay.

[April Ojoul]

Or she's. So Megan Waldron is the actual instructor that's over the course. So the TA would work under her. So the TA then sends it to the professor because I guess she got pushed back. So Samantha pushed back on the grade. So the actual professor over the course responded and this is what she said. Samantha, I am the other instructor for this course and I have also taken the time to read your paper. I concur with Mel on the grade you received. This paper should not be considered as a completion of the assignment. Everyone has different ways in which they see the world. But in an academic course such as this, you are being asked to support your ideas with empirical evidence and higher level reasoning. I find it concerning that you state at the beginning of your paper that you do not think bullying, teasing, is a bad thing. In addition, your paper directly and harshly criticizes your peers and their opinions, which are just as valuable as yours. Disagreeing with others is fine, but there is a respectful way to go about it. That goes for discussion posts as well as reaction papers. Please employ more thoughtfulness in your future assignments.

[Tim Whitaker]

There you go. There you go. Very cordial, very polite. Again, just the reasons why this happened makes sense. I mean, when you write an essay in a scientific class, just essentially regurgitating what you learned in high control fundamentalist Christianity, it's not going to hold up because you're not citing evidence. You're not setting data, you're setting opinion about what you think the Bible might or might not say about a topic which it's actually very quiet on. There's actually nothing in the Bible that talks about transgenderism or gender fluidity. That's not. It's foreign to the text they use.

[April Ojoul]

The creation story is typically what they use. God created male and female, but I mean, we can go into the theology of that. But here's the thing. She didn't even quote that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ojoul]

She didn't like, I think there's a world in which she doesn't get a zero if she actually cited the Bible. Because I've cited the Bible in, in academic papers before, but it was to back up a point I was making of what the Bible said and interpretations and all of that. You can't just go in and say, you know, the Bible says this without. Without at minimal, at least citing where it says that this is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Someone asked in the chat if this is seminary. No, this is not seminary or seminary class.

[April Ojoul]

It's not a university.

[Tim Whitaker]

Which is why I don't think even studying the Bible, she should have gotten credit for that. Because the Bible's not an empirical data point. The Bible is not that. This is the fatal mistake that modern evangelical ism.

Commits. They take the Bible and they made it their own empirical data set. They've essentially taken an ancient text that took a long time to collect and that has been debated for millennia. And they've said this is our scientific standard. That's a horrible scientific standard because the Bible's not claiming to be that the Bible is not claiming to be an empirical data set of gender or sex or anything else. So even if she did cite the Bible, it's still a terrible argument. It's a terrible argument.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt seen, or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[April Ojoul]

I think just to take let's take Christianity out of it for a moment because I think we all have presuppositions and like feelings about Christianity on either side. But let's just imagine that the assignment was to talk about, I don't know, the peer pressure to drink sparkling water like, stupid, right? Like, let's just say it was the peer pressure to drink sparkling water. And a student writes a paper that says, well, I disagree that people are pressured to drink sparkling water because there are stereotypes. And really, this book that I read called the. The Libel says that people who drink sparkling water are demonic and are just believing lies from some bad guy. I don't know. Like, yeah, yeah, we would all totally be on board with that article, with that essay receiving a zero, because that doesn't make any sense. And there are plenty of people that don't believe that, that drinking sparkling water is a sin. Obviously, I'm exaggerating for a point, but you could. That is not what academia does. And I just want to say too, like, with the whole Charlie Kirk, like, what Charlie Kirk did on college campuses and the war that he made with college, and then the, the martyrdom that a lot of Christians feel on college campuses has really made professors feel like they are walking on eggshells. And I know this. I'm married to a professor. The, the. The power dynamic has shifted now because when I went to college, I, I remember, and I went to Christian schools, mind you, I went to all Christian colleges and Christian high school and I was prepared. Like, when you go into a classroom, the professor knows more than you. You are there to learn from the professor. You get whatever grade the professor gives you. You cite your evidence, you always back up your sources, and your opinions do not matter. You are there to learn.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ojoul]

Period. And like, I remember being, like, taught from high school. Like, it's going to be hard. You are going to fit. Like, and I like, do you remember.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like, seeing the point, by the way? That's the point of college.

[April Ojoul]

Old movies where you go into college and the professor's like, look to your left, look to your right. Two of you are not going to make this. Make it in this class. Like, you're going to fail, you know? And, like, the pendulum now is totally swung. And now the, like, all of these Christian students feel emboldened because for their entire life they've been told secular professors are out to brainwash you. You've got to stand up. Secular professors. Like Beecher said, God's not dead. That movie, the whole premise is a Christian going into a college having an atheist professor that's trying to convince you that God's not real. Like, and that that's just not the reality. Like, it's just.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, what's interesting, too, is it's, it's such a, it's such a coddling Right. Like, isn't it funny how that world is like, look, we don't need no government handouts. You pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You be a tough man. You be a tough Christian. Braving the storm. And the second, a student, a bad grade for a bad paper. Oh, you're under attack, you poor thing. We have to defend your freedom. What kind of freedom? The students was allowed to write the paper. She wrote the paper, and the professor gave her a failing grade and cited the reasons why. So what happens next, April? Let's continue on with the story. I want to know.

[April Ojoul]

Okay, so this is where I think it's very telling.

[Tim Whitaker]

Go ahead.

[April Ojoul]

She. Do you not know who she first contacted the same day that she gets the 0? And the response is from the TA and the other instructor.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ojoul]

Her first email. And this is according to. I mean, this story is all over the place, but inside Higher Ed News.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ojoul]

Because there has been a theme happening of other very conservative Christian students basically trying to catch their professors and make it a huge national story. Like, that's. That's something that's been happening a lot lately. Yeah.

Her first. She first contacted the governor of Oklahoma.

[Tim Whitaker]

And did he respond?

[April Ojoul]

Her first email? He did respond. He responded publicly in a tweet.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, I had that.

[April Ojoul]

That is. So let me pull that up here. Governor Kevin Stitt.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hold on.

[April Ojoul]

Which, like, what. What is the governor doing where he can immediately, like, go to bat for a random college student's 25 point essay grade?

[Tim Whitaker]

This is. This is why we. We wrote in our thumbnail. What. What was the. What do we put our thumbnail again? Something about life.

[April Ojoul]

Premeditated persecution.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, and this is also why I told you offline, April. I'm like, you know, you've heard of making of a murderer. This is making of a martyr. Something. Something is suspicious here because I'll tell you what, some rando college student in a. In a school doesn't email the governor of the state and get a response right away and then get a public tweet from the governor in support calling it a First Amendment issue. Something is so sus about this whole situation, like, highly. It feels like it was planned, coordinated. That's how it feels.

[April Ojoul]

I. 100%. I mean, it's a theory, but I think she intentionally wrote that in an inflammatory way, hoping she would get a bad grade so that she could do this exact thing. Because who on earth gets a bad grade and thinks, you know, who needs to hear about this? The governor of my state.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm gonna Go even deeper though, I'm gonna say that, that, that, that. Well, first off, do you wanna tell people who, who her mother was or is?

[April Ojoul]

Do we wanna go there already? Let's read what, let's read what the governor said first. Cause he's here. So Governor Kevin Stead gets this email, somehow has time to respond to a random college student. He says the First Amendment is foundational to our freedom and inseparable from a well rounded education. The situation at OU is deeply concerning. I'm calling on the OU regents to review the result of the investigation and ensure other students aren't unfairly penalized for their beliefs.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is wild.

[April Ojoul]

So she says she got a zero because she was just standing up for her faith. But here's the thing. I don't know why they're making it a First Amendment issue. Because she was clearly allowed to say her opinion.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what I'm saying.

The First Amendment guarantees you freedom of speech and freedom of consequence from the government, giving you consequences. Meaning if the governor was a radical Marxist leftist, which he's obviously not, he couldn't put her in prison for that paper because she is the First Amendment right to free speech. We're not talking about that. We're talking about what an educational institution gave her for a grade in response to her words. But what they're going to do here is they're going to make this a First Amendment issue. And it's really not there. This is, this is such, such a textbook. Textbook, like play. It's straight out of their playbook, right? They do this all the time. Anything that makes them feel uncomfortable. Anytime something like, like this happens where someone cites an issue regarding like trans people or you know, trans quote unquote ideology, it becomes a First Amendment issue. If that person gets any kind of consequence from a private institution or you know, educational institution. It's just, it's so frustrating to watch it happen in real time. It's crazy.

[April Ojoul]

And it takes, it takes no critical thinking whatsoever. You go in there, you can say this is the Christian nationalist playbook, mind you, because I was taught from a young age that Christians were persecuted, especially in public schools.

[Tim Whitaker]

Of course.

[April Ojoul]

And like I tried to be persecuted. I had a very similar situation. I was in seventh grade, mind you. I feel like I probably wrote a better paper than she did in seventh grade. But regardless, I was in seventh grade and I was going to a public school for the first time. And I was so excited because I had been homeschooled up until this point. You can't really be persecuted when everyone around you are your brothers and they're already Christians. Right?

[Tim Whitaker]

That's my story, too. Yeah, exactly.

[April Ojoul]

Okay, so. But I was so excited. I literally was so excited because I got to stand up for my faith in public school. And I remember my English teacher gave an assignment on how to make school safer because this was in the wake of Columbine, right? It was like, a year after Columbine. And I, beyond fantasizing about being shot in school, which we've talked about that before, but I went in, I wrote a paper basically, on the way to keep schools safe from school shootings was to put God back in school. I wrote a whole paper on how we needed to put prayer back in school, how we needed to put the Bibles back in school, like, how that was how we would keep school safe. Right. I hoped I didn't say this out loud, but I thought that my teacher had to have been an atheist because he was teaching at a public school, even though I was in Texas. And I was just, like, ready to get that zero so that I would then be able to be, like, that Christian hero that, like, why. Stood up for my faith and I got a bad grade, but it was worth it because I stood up for Jesus. Jesus, right.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right.

[April Ojoul]

So I go in there. I write this.

[Tim Whitaker]

You took a stand.

[April Ojoul]

I took a stand. I. I even quoted Carmen. Do you remember that old Carmen song, America Again? There's this one line where he goes, you want to see kids live, right? Stop handing out condoms and start handing out the word of God in school. And it's like, the only hope for America is Jesus.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my God.

[April Ojoul]

Anyway, I quote that line, right, about condoms and Bibles, and I. I get. It's time for the. The teacher to hand out the papers, right? And this is my moment. My heart is pounding. I'm like, this is it. I'm about to be persecuted. I know I got a bad grade. He passes me. He hands out all the papers, skips me, and I'm like, he's going to publicly call me out. This is even better.

[Erica Kirk]

Perfect.

[April Ojoul]

He says, I saved April's for last. I know. Like, here comes. Here comes. I'm finally going to get persecuted. And he says, I'm not lying. He says, I saved hers for last because she wrote exactly what I was looking for. Hers is the perfect example. Yeah. She's like, she got the highest grade in the class. In fact, it was so good that I want her to read it out loud for all of you right now.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Ojoul]

Turns out he was a Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

A Christian conservative, for sure.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. And so I read the whole paper. So now I'm like, oh, my gosh. Now I get to witness to my entire class and try to convert my entire class. Like, this is like, oh, this is going to be my story I tell forever. So I get up and read it.

No one cheered, really. I got, like, maybe a couple of claps in the back. Like, I mean, a seventh grade. They don't really care. I did hear a couple snickers. I didn't really understand what that was about, but it was middle school, and so I started hearing rumblings afterwards of people, like, talking about my paper. And I thought, oh, my gosh, what are they calling me? Like, you know, like, Betty and like, you know, I'm getting nickname now. Do you want to know what they were calling me?

[Tim Whitaker]

What?

[April Ojoul]

Condom girl.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's hilarious.

[April Ojoul]

And I. Girl, you want to know what's funny? That was out of my whole thing. That was all they took. As I said, condoms in a paper. And I didn't even know what a condom was because I was so sheltered.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my God. Well, I never had the fortunate privilege of being persecuted for my faith in public school because I was homeschooled and then went to a very small private school. So I, you know, I dreamt about it. I did do the see you at the poll every year. And, you know, I prayed for our country.

[April Ojoul]

So I was in Youth Alive Fellowship of Christian Athletes. All the. Yeah. Anyway, all that to say is that you were trained for this. Yeah, you were trained for this. And I think when you see her. Her mother is it. It all makes sense. Her mother is Christy Fulnacki out of Springfield, Missouri. She is an.

[Tim Whitaker]

Which, by the way, is a fundamental. Is a Christian fundamentalist like, hub. Anywhere in Missouri is a huge hub of people like that. Like, a lot of organizations are there. A lot of, like, Christian organizations are there. The biggest charismatic church in America is there, I think James River. So it's a huge hotbed.

[April Ojoul]

Yes. So her mom is an attorney. She has represented, I think, two.

January 6ers for their participation in the insurrection.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Ojoul]

She also was a big lawyer during. She fought a lot of the mask mandates and said that those were, like, kind of persecution in and of itself and, you know, was going against people's rights. So that's her mom. Her mom has been.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's why I think this is planned. This is. I think here. Here's my hypothesis. And by the way, friends, if you're watching on live stream on YouTube. Please give this video a like, it really helps get it out to more people. 62 likes, 200 people watching. Come on. We could do better.

[April Ojoul]

We know you can. Like it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hit that like button. It costs nothing. This is here. Here's my, my hypothesis as a former, you know, fundamentalist, I think. What's this person's name again? What's her name?

[April Ojoul]

Christy Fulnacki.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think Christy and her daughter. I think her daughter told her mom, hey, one of my professors or TAs is A. Is a trans person. And then they plotted and waited for the right time to try and get a reaction out of. Out of them for this essay. And then Christy used her connections to kind of plan what would happen if this thing went awry. Right? Meaning if she got a bad grade or if she got any kind of pushback, how she could leverage her connections to kind of blow this thing up and become the next. Almost like Riley Gaines. You know how Riley Gaines was a swimmer who tied for fifth place. Fifth place and blew up the story personality. And by the way, an article came out doing a deep dive into Riley Gaines like trajectory. She had major funding behind her. Like the Betsy Devoe types, they poured money into who she was to create this person that never actually existed. This is what they do. The right wing media infrastructure looks for things like this. And then they will twist the narrative in their favor. They'll put them on a Fox News. They'll put them all around their little circuit claiming persecution, claiming all these things to then make this person the newest martyr. That's what this is. It's a planned persecution. Because these people have a persecution kink, April, because you and I had a persecution gink. I practiced with my friends to be in the underground church. One time we cut the power in someone's house. We built cardboard tunnels. We had to sneak in on our stomach and smuggle in Bibles and have a church service and pitch black with my candlelight, pretending that we were the.

[April Ojoul]

Persecuted church.

For the Lincoln Square audience or anyone here that is confused about. Wait, you mean you want to be persecuted? Let me explain, like, theologically, why. Because in the Bible, Jesus says the world will hate you like it hated me. And it says, blessed are the persecuted. So there's this. It's this teaching of like, as long as you are standing up for your faith, you will be hated. You will be persecuted. That can be hard to come by in a nation where the vast majority of our Congress and presidents and anyone in our government has claimed some form of Christianity. So what do you do? You gotta make it up.

[Tim Whitaker]

You gotta make it up.

[April Ojoul]

You gotta make it up. You gotta find ways to be persecuted. So this is actually part of a Christian nationalist playbook, right? You do something that is so inflammatory and offensive. Like calling an entire group of people demonic in a college paper.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ojoul]

And then when you get that, because you want to rise, you want to get that rise out of them, you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Want to get the rise. That's right.

[April Ojoul]

When that rise initially comes, then you say, oh, well, I was just standing up for my faith. You hate God, you hate Christianity, I'm being persecuted. And then you get to go and be a hero in your Christian circles. You get to basically feel like you are doing Christianity, you're a good Christian because you got pushback without having to actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Because as we're going to see in a second, these people have no problem celebrating killing innocent people or deporting innocent people. But an essay. An essay, right? A bad grade. And then here's the thing. It's not like this was like 50% of her grade. This was a 25.1 assignment.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's. Look, these are the same people who say nothing about Christian immigrants, excuse me, being persecuted by this government. They had nothing to say about that. As we're kidnapping them from their homes, ripping them from their children. That's fine, Make America great again, Right? But a student gets a bad grade for writing a shitty paper with no empirical evidence or data. She just recites dogma, and suddenly it's like, this is it. We're under attack. Like you said. April, what do you do when you are the empire? What do you do when your people control the American system? When you're in the government, when you have shaped everything? Well, you have to make shit up to keep becoming the victims that you claim you aren't. Right?

[April Ojoul]

It's like if you believe that God tells you to go up and punch everybody with blonde hair, right? And when finally someone punches you back, you say, oh, how dare you? I was just doing what I believed God told me to do. Like, no, you're actively, like, punching people in the face, right? Do you want being held accountable because you are hurting other people? Not because of your beliefs, it's because of your actions of what you do. Like, they are actively taking rights away from trans people.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, and also, you're not standing on truth. That's the other thing that really gets me is this world. Oh, and we're going to play an interview with Samantha on Fox News. Here in a second she'll say over and over, truth. Standing on truth. You're not standing on truth. You're not standing on truth. You're standing on dogma. They have replaced that word. They have reinvented the word truth to mean dogma. And for them empirical data is not true. Their dogma is true. It's, it's unbelievable. Do you want to go ahead and get to this?

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. So she, she's a hero now, Samantha. She's, she's been on Fox News.

[Tim Whitaker]

The book, the book deal is totally coming.

[April Ojoul]

She just spoke at the Oklahoma CPAC event yesterday where she received an award which we'll get to that in a second. But yeah, here's here she is talking on Fox news because this 25 point essay is national newsworthy for some reason.

[Tim Whitaker]

I was going to say that again. This is what matters for Fox News, right? It's not the fact that healthcare premiums are going to skyrocket next, next year because of the quote unquote big beautiful bill. It's not, it's not any, it's not that wages are stagnant. It's not that the ultra rich is getting richer. It's not that we are, like we said earlier, kidnapping immigrants or that we're attacking clergy members who are peacefully protesting. No, no, no. That's not what is important here. What's important here is getting this girl on this FOX News show to push a narrative that is complete delulu. These people live in alternate reality. Here we go on over this.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

A pre med college student at the University of Oklahoma given a zero for a paper she had to write about gender. She cited the Bible to back her belief in the idea that there are traditional gender roles. To be clear, that didn't fly with the transgender TA who gave her a zero her that she lacks empathy. The student filed a discrimination report. The university says it takes first amendment rights seriously stating or starting a formal grade appeal process. And the university ou placed on leave the ta. So join me now. Is the student at the center of the office, Samantha Holnecki. Samantha, thanks for being with us here today. I, I read the criteria for the answer that you had to give. It didn't seem to match at all the criticism the TA gave of your paper.

[Tim Whitaker]

Could we just stop there? The reason why April and I took the time to read the rubric, to read the entire essay, to read the TA's comments is so you can smell the bullshit when people like this say things that you now know are so not true. The rubric Was very clear. Samantha did not meet the rubrics requirements. The TA gave detailed instructions why she got the grade that she did. But for this Fox News host. No, no, no. He guys just trust him. He read the rubric it made. It was totally in line with her essay. They want you to be sheep. They want you to believe that these people are truth tellers. It's. It's wild to watch it in real time.

[April Ojoul]

And she is living her best life because of that grade. Oh yeah, she's going to make, going to be a. The next turning point figurehead. She's making a press tour right now. Who knows, she might get a book deal out of this.

[Tim Whitaker]

The book is coming. Look, make no mistake, this girl, if they can work the schedule out, will be at America fest, Turning Point USA's America Fest in a few months. Not even a freaking question. She's gonna live her best life. She'll be a hero in her circles. All while claiming persecution. That's the great irony about this, right? Is this persecution? You go on national television, on a major cable news network being able to share your opinion freely about people applaud you. This is your version of persecution. They live in the upside down. They live in a world that is so ass backwards.

[April Ojoul]

I do hope if she gets a book deal though, that she has a ghostwriter because based on that essay.

It'S funny.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Not at all.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

I was told to give my opinion on gender stereotypes and gender norms, so that's what I did. I didn't think that was.

[April Ojoul]

That wasn't what was rubric, Me needing.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

To be brave or have courage. I thought I was just sharing my opinion like I was asked to do. So that's what I did. And I talked about the Bible and what God says about gender norms and about how there are two genders and things like that. And the response I got back was a zero on that paper. And the TA saying that my writing was offensive and that I needed more empathy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Because you call people demonic. That's one reason. But can I just say one minor thing? This is a little more in the weeds here. Theologically, in the Bible there are more than 2 genders. Eunuchs are in the Bible and they were seen as kind of like a third way. First off, let's be clear. The Bible has no modern notions of gender because it didn't exist in the ancient world. Let's just start from that foundation, okay? It's not how they don't see sexuality or gender the same exact way that we do. For a lot of reasons. But eunuchs were a type of third way. They were not fully male, not fully female. So even that notion that the Bible's clear that there are only two genders isn't even true. Jesus says, I wish all of you were more like the eunuchs.

That's what gets me, April, is that it's not even like their original claim is truthful. They just lie. They lie about everything. They're ignorant. Oh God.

[April Ojoul]

Well, and then Galatians also says there's neither male nor female.

[Tim Whitaker]

Uh oh, wait, there's non binary. Oh, I don't know about that. Oh goodness.

[April Ojoul]

I'm just saying, like the idea that the way that they talk about like, oh, the Bible is clear. Clear. The reason why she didn't cite the Bible is because there was nothing in the Bible for her to cite the. But the thing that they use the most is the creation story. And just, just to clarity, I. I just want to give a theological interpretation of that from Jewish people, because that was their text first.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Mind you, it's the Hebrew Bible.

[April Ojoul]

Right. And so what I love, what actually I love this about the Jewish tradition is they believe in this thing called Miriam, which is that the creation story describes a spectrum, not a binary. So because it says like, God created land and sea. Right. But that doesn't mean that swamplands don't exist or marshes don't exist.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ojoul]

So when it's describing land and sea, it also is saying, and everything in between, that God created. God created night and day. But sunsets exist, dawn and dusk exist. So it's not saying those things don't exist because it only mentions night and day. And it's the same thing God created male and female and everything in between. So that is a belief in Jewish tradition. And it was their text first. But evangelicals come along and try to make everything this dogmatic, black and white, good versus evil. Like, and that's, that's the hard thing about this ideology, as someone who comes from it is it's just very. You're either on God's side or you're on the side of Satan.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right.

[April Ojoul]

There's no in between. So it's how they can look at someone who's actually a very kind and good person. But if you don't actually share their beliefs, you are of Satan 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're right in the money.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Yeah. I looked at the criteria and it said something like, don't summarize the article that you're responding to and have original thoughts and opinions. All of which you did. But then Ta came back and said, not backed by science and medicine.

And that you were offensive. Right. In your idea that what, there are men and there are women.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I wrote about, is that there's men and there's women. And God created us equally with different gifts and abilities and that our society is better off living with that structure and that idea in mind. And.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah, come on, pause.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[April Ojoul]

What? God created us with different gifts and abilities. She never explained what those differences were. She just said, women want to do womanly things. She mentions being a mother and being beautiful. And beyond that, she didn't even describe, like, she didn't. She'd never backed up any of her points. And I think she tried to back up her points. She wouldn't have gotten a zero. She just was like throwing random things at the wall just without any, any substance whatsoever. Also, like, that's her response.

[Tim Whitaker]

Jesus.

[April Ojoul]

Like, oh, my gosh.

[Tim Whitaker]

Go ahead, go off, April. Go off.

[April Ojoul]

What the crap is a womanly thing? I grew up. I was a tomboy as a kid. I wasn't interested in like cooking or cleaning. Honestly, I still am not. That's not my thing. My spouse, Beecher, is a much better cook than me. Naturally. I am naturally going to burn food because I'm not good at it and I don't enjoy it. What does that mean? Did God make a mistake when. When he made me because I don't naturally want to do womanly things?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right.

[April Ojoul]

Like that. Like that. But like, at a very baseline is just stupid. There's so many different types of men and women even. Even in a binary standard.

[Tim Whitaker]

What is stupid? What was the one comment by Meg? She said.

Oh, you are being asked to support your ideas with empirical evidence and higher level reasoning. This is low level reasoning. It's low level. Look, I'm not trying to be rude to Samantha, but this is like bottom of the barrel reasoning. You're not using like critical thinking. You're not actually thinking through your positions. You're not citing the reasons why. Besides you just saying things. Like, it's like when Michael Scott declares bankruptcy. It's like, dude, you can say that. It doesn't mean anything. This is just a bunch of hot air over and over and over.

[April Ojoul]

This is just a bad sentence. Okay, I want to reread this one. Women naturally want to do womanly things because God created us with those womanly desires in our hearts.

[Tim Whitaker]

What does. What? Like what? What's a womanly thing?

[April Ojoul]

I don't know. And then she goes. The same goes for men. Now if you're reading something in context.

You could read that as saying men also want to do womanly things. Like if you're actually reading, if you're actually reading it in a way that her sentences are written because it's just a poorly written article. This is like, I think my 9 year old could write a better paper than this. Honestly. Probably women want naturally what it piss. It just pisses me off. Like take some fricking accountability. You did not get a zero because you were standing up for your faith. You got a zero because you are a terrible writer and you were a junior in college. Where is your shame? How did you post that publicly and think that people would come to your side? That is terrible writing.

It hurts my head. You're such an academic nerd to even read this. No kidding. Like, I.

I don't. It just really bothers me as someone who is a writer.

It's just bad.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's bad.

[April Ojoul]

It's bad. And for her to be like, I know I was, I was just standing up for God and look at this really bad grade that I got because I just love Jesus. It's never bad to stand up for Jesus. I'm like, you wrote women naturally want to do womanly things because God created us with those womanly desires in our heart. That is just a bad sentence.

[Tim Whitaker]

Also, it's kind of like you're not really referencing Jesus very well if that's how you write. You know, like, don't make Jesus look bad.

[April Ojoul]

I was also taught, whatever you do, do it with excellence, Samantha.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly.

[April Ojoul]

Where's the excellence?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, no, there's no excellence here.

[April Ojoul]

I could defend a binary gender roles better than that. I wouldn't, but I could.

[Tim Whitaker]

Isn't it interesting how the people who are all about personal accountability now. Oh well, look, don't look at your terrible writing. It's all the bad professor's fault because they were trans.

[April Ojoul]

The.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's a paradox, right, of like victimhood. And also you're a conqueror at the same time. Like, you know, you're, you're so powerful and strong, but also you're a victim of big bad woke culture.

[April Ojoul]

Can I say who the actual victim is in this situation is the trans TA that got put on administrative leave. It's crazy for backing up that grade.

[Tim Whitaker]

And the school, the school came out and said that, that that grade will not go against her. And her total score for the year.

[April Ojoul]

She'S facing, she is facing zero consequences.

[Tim Whitaker]

Zero for this.

[April Ojoul]

Now and she's still playing the persecution card. She's. She's been elevated to a huge. Like, this is the best thing that could ever happen to her. And she's still out there being like, oh, woe is me.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, you know what? Hold on. We have our first troll in a long time here on the. On the show. I find it disgusting how you two are mocking and judging a child's faith. She could present her religion any way she wants. She doesn't deserve a zero, Harry.

[News Reporter]

She can.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're right. She can present her faith however she wants, but she can get a bad grade for doing a shitty job. And she did. Yeah, she did.

[April Ojoul]

She did a bad grade.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm not sure.

Also, she's not a child. She's. She's an adult. Like, she's probably in. What if you're in. Is she in grad school?

[April Ojoul]

No, it's an undergrad. But she's a junior in undergrad.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Here's the thing. By the time you're a junior, the professor doesn't hold your hand anymore. I mean, they barely do a freshman year anyway, but, like, they're not going to hold your hand, right? And by the time you're a junior, you don't have to be handheld and told, make sure you back up your claims. Like, that's a given. You are in academia, girl.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. Exactly. You're. You're. I mean, to. To. To cite a nerd analogy, it's kind of like in Mighty Ducks 3 when they try their flying V against the varsity team. They get demolished, and the coach is like, hey, your little peewee tricks aren't going to work anymore. It's the same thing here. Like, hey, your little. Your little kindergarten Sunday school, you know, small town conservative theology is not going to hold up against empirical data and critical thinking. So you have to evolve. You have to get beyond thinking that this book that you hold in your hand called the Bible in English somehow is the moral authority for all of life that every human being must submit to. Because somehow you hit the cosmic jackpot and you just happen to have the secret to all of life that no one else has. Like, at some point, you got to get beyond that and realize the world's a lot bigger than your little pigeonhole of a world that you grew up in. And your bubble has to get popped and it's uncomfortable and it's not fun and it's hard. But guess what? That's how you become a better freaking human. What you don't do is you double down and then claim persecution when you write a shitty ass essay grammatically and content wise.

[April Ojoul]

I also just want to point out too that comment that referred to her as a child. That is another huge problem in this world of the infantilizing of white women. Yeah, where they could do no wrong and you have to be a hero and come in and save them. Where like black women, like a black child could go out and do something and they would refer to her as a woman if she did something totally like that. Drives me crazy too. Anyway.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us at Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Ad Read Announcer]

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[Simon]

Hi, my name's Simon and I'm in Sydney, Australia, and I'm a monthly donor for the New Evangelicals. I found the TNE Instagram in 2021. I'd recently stepped down from my job as a pastor. I was beginning to find a real conflict between what I was beginning to believe about God and the world and the church and the evangelical spaces I was in. But at the time, it was really dark for me. I was really lonely. I was really isolated. I had so many questions. And finding a space where it was okay to ask questions and to share my thoughts and ideas and hear other people's ideas at the same time and just be able to connect with so many people that were going through similar things was incredible for me at a time when I needed it most. Since then, I've been quite involved with the organization for a while. I was the moderator admin for the Facebook group. And now I've just started out on the New Evangelicals board. I would love to encourage you if you can make a monthly donation to the New Evangelicals. There's some great work happening and particularly Project Amplify and the opportunity it has. So many voices to give so many voices a chance to be heard. I know it's something I needed in my dark moments. It's something we're able to contribute to that can help other people as they begin to smell the fresh air outside that basement of fundamentalist evangelical spaces.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, here we go.

[April Ojoul]

Okay.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

And are you happy with how it's being handled now by ou?

[Samantha Fulnecki]

At first I wasn't. They didn't tell me that I. That they were going to do anything to resolve the issue. I didn't know that the TA was put on administrative leave until they released a statement on X saying that they had done that and that they take these situations very seriously. I didn't know that they were going to take the situation seriously.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't believe that for a second.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

I don't know if that's because it blew up on social media.

[April Ojoul]

I don't know. I called the governor But I don't know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, my. My. My mom represented January sixers. But, hey, what would I know?

[April Ojoul]

I had no idea when I contacted the governor that it would. It would blow up. Like, why did you contact the governor?

[Tim Whitaker]

And when Turning Point usa, Oklahoma, blew it up and covered it, I had no idea. Give me a break, dude. It's so obvious.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

But when they were in contact with me, it didn't seem to me like they were going to do anything about it.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah, because you deserved a zero.

[Tim Whitaker]

Student goes viral for a zero grade on gender paper.

[April Ojoul]

Can I just. I just want to say where I think the TA went wrong. Like, okay, I'm gonna just like, here's. Here's my. Here's my opinion on. On why I think what I think the TA should have done. I think. I actually don't think they did anything wrong. For the record, I think that. I think she absolutely deserved a zero. She did not follow the assignment, but I think the TA should have read the room a little bit to see what was happening in the country, because there's been plenty of other teachers that have been put in similar situations, especially on trans and gender issues. I think. I think maybe the better option where this wouldn't have blown up into what it has is to. To give her that feedback, give her the chance to redo the paper or at least give her, like, I don't know, a four. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like there was a way that she could have got that pushback where she didn't just run. Like, I think for and for the record, I think she deserved zero. If we weren't living in such a backwards world where there's such, like, the tensions are just so high.

But anyway, that's the only thing that I think the TA could have done differently.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll be honest. You know, this academia is not my world. I went to college for two years and then dropped out. But I would imagine if you're a junior, it's like, look like you know how this goes. Like, you've had plenty of chances to be taught how to follow assignments. But maybe you're right. I mean, maybe she should have had her redo the paper. But again, what it would.

[April Ojoul]

It.

[Tim Whitaker]

It wouldn't have changed the narrative, right then. It would have been. And then my teacher told me I could redo the paper, but I stood true to my faith. I wasn't gonna compromise and write things that I knew weren't true. So it's the same no matter what. All paths lead to this Scenario where white evangelical fundamentalism, Christian nationalism has their newest hero to prop up as the newest victim of woke culture. That's all this is.

[April Ojoul]

No, I agree. And there's a world and no matter what the TA did, she would have elevated this because 100% because of that. I will say a lot of the pushback that I've seen from mag is like how is that deserve a zero? You at least turned it in. Like I don't know what that would be. My only thing that I would have done differently. I will say I don't know. It's getting late. We're spending a long time on this. I figured we were going to another video of her. She did an interview and with the local news where she claimed she had no idea that the professor was trans.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh yeah, this one. Yeah, this one here.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Then we'll start moving on. Also we have super chats to read at some point.

[April Ojoul]

We'll get. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay friends, if you're just joining the stream, thanks so much for being here. Please make sure to give this video a like, it helps get out to more and more people. If you're watching on Substack, thank you so much for being here. It means the world. We love doing this. I have a cough drop in my mouth. Hopefully that will help me from coughing so much. So if you hear some noise, that's what it is. All right, here we go.

Tonight we're hearing from the OU student who took her zero grade to the governor, Samantha Fulnecki, a psychology junior who says she received a zero grade for citing the Bible in her opinion based essay on gender binary labels. Fox 25's Rob Hagan live the OU campus with more on the paper that's grabbed the nation's attention. Rob, what have you found out in your conversations today?

[News Reporter]

Adam Smith. Samantha says that she's been receiving hate comments on social media for citing God as a source in her essay. But she's staying strong and this is her story.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I just gotta laugh. The right wing media world sends people to say the nastiest things to other people. April, what's happened to you? You've gone viral and gotten hate death threats.

[April Ojoul]

Like, oh, I know it's scary.

[Tim Whitaker]

All of a sudden like Samantha, the poor girl is now a victim because she wrote a horrible essay. It's just, oh God, it's so one sided. It's just frustrating.

[News Reporter]

It's the 650 word essay on gender binaries for a 2000 level psych class at OU based on opinion which received a zero grade for bringing God into the discussion. Now the pre med framing who brought her paper to the governor sharing what she's learned.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

My main goal in this to encourage other Christians to stand up for their beliefs.

[News Reporter]

Samantha Full neck. He says she received a perfect grade on every assignment in the online course she says is taught by two teaching assistants. Until this one, I didn't know that.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

The TA was transgender or about his personal beliefs or anything like that.

[Tim Whitaker]

So first off, I don't believe that because as we demonstrated, it has her pronouns in her name also and her.

[April Ojoul]

Pronouns say she, they and she is intentionally misgendering.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally, totally brutal.

[April Ojoul]

Which is just rude. Like if you didn't know they were trans, how did you know? Why would you assume he? Because her name is Mel, which is pretty gender neutral.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

Yep, I just did the assignments and turned them in and went about my day. So there hadn't been any tension in the past until we were asked to do an assignment over this topic.

[News Reporter]

She says school administration decided not to change the zero on the assignment, but it won't be counted towards her final grade. Now the student who's Comanche hoping to be a pediatrician in a Native American hospital is receiving both praise.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yikes. Are you serious?

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. I would not trust her.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait till she learns about two spirit.

[News Reporter]

Oh gosh in indigenous culture and hate from the masses.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

A lot of people have taken things from the Bible and twisted it against me and just saying things about like how I'm going to hell and my judgment will await me one day.

[News Reporter]

Full Necky has caught the attention of the national spotlight and the attention of the Oklahoma Freedom Caucus.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's about a state funded, taxpayer funded institution allowing their faculty members to abridge or impede a student's right to express their faith.

[News Reporter]

The teaching assistant says Fulnacki did not provide empirical evidence to back her claims using a proven psychological scientific methodology. Now the TA is put on paid administrative leave and full necky says they will not grade her work in the future.

[Samantha Fulnecki]

I pointed out that I didn't say anywhere that I needed evidence and his response was no, that's the grade he deserved.

[April Ojoul]

It's understood that you need evidence.

[Tim Whitaker]

Imagine thinking that's like your slam dunk response. Well, you didn't say I needed evidence to prove my claims. Like, are you.

[April Ojoul]

What?

[Tim Whitaker]

What?

[April Ojoul]

I can't. I can't enter.

[News Reporter]

Shane Jett is demanding a meeting with the OU president for what he calls a war on faith on this campus. And as for Samantha. She's going to be a guest speaker tomorrow at the Oklahoma History center along with former state superintendent Ryan Walters. Live at OU campus in Norman. Rob Hagan, Fox 25 News.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's really unbelievable, ma'.

[April Ojoul]

Am. It's unbelievable. So, yeah, she spoke yesterday at this event that was put on by Oklahoma cpac. Ryan Walters was there, and she was awarded a citation of recognition from the Oklahoma House of Representatives. And they gave her a little, like, certificate that she helped. Like, look, there's. There she is holding it up. She's for standing up for her faith.

[Tim Whitaker]

It pays to be persecuted in America.

[April Ojoul]

It. No, that's why she did this.

[Tim Whitaker]

It pays. She has not. Again, what a. What an inversion of the term, right? Persecution is not. You get to be paraded around, make a lot of money, go on tours and get celebrated as a hero. Persecution is someone targeting for your faith and hurts you.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. It's the same thing that happened to Judge Roy Moore back in Alabama where he refused to take off the Ten Commandments. And then he. I can't remember if he resigned or he got fired because he was being very partial, obviously. And then he gets a book tour, a book deal. He goes on tour. He becomes this Christian hero. Obviously, this is before all the scandals came out later when he ran for the Synod. But, like, that's like the Christian nationalist playbook. Your persecution means you get a book deal which is insulting to Christians globally that are actually persecuted and are actually killed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Their version of persecution is, you did not. You did not succumb to my dogma. Therefore, I'm being persecuted because you won't let me essentially erase who you are as a person. Wait, what do you mean? I can't call you demonic in an academic paper and not cite my sources. You're persecuting me. No, you're just being an asshole who's also not citing sources. Like, that's what's actually going on here.

[April Ojoul]

How can she be like, she spent a whole essay where she's twisting scripture without quoting scripture to demonize an entire group of people. And then she's like, people are twisting scripture against me.

[Tim Whitaker]

Because people have to understand.

If you're watching this on substack or maybe you're like, new to the show, you have to understand, like, from the time you are a young child all the way through, you're given this narrative that everyone outside of this bubble that you live in hates you. They hate you and they want to see you destroyed. But what they don't tell you is that the reason why so Many people are hostile towards your brand of Christianity is because your brand of Christianity is insisting that it has a right to swing its fists in the face of other people. That's the problem. No one is saying you can't believe what you want. You and your church can't organize how you want, do what you want. The problem is that this world, it has a massive billion dollar war chest of a fist and is doing everything it can to arose the rights of other people that want nothing to do with your brand of Christianity. Right. And so, I mean, think about it like this, right? Right now, I'll put it in a whole different light to really drive this point home right now. April, I'm sure you've been hearing about, you know, the threat of radical Islam. It's kind of coming back in some of these evangelical circles. We have to be, you know, the threat of Islam. Well, imagine if, Imagine if there was a billion dollar war chest of a, you know, of a Muslim group that was insisting that it be able to replace American law with its version of Muslim law, or Sharia law, whatever it would be. And then imagine when people fought back, they claimed persecution for not being able to enforce their version of Muslim or Sharia law in America. Right. It's clear as day when you think about it like that. Like, oh, wait, no, they're not being persecuted. They're just, they're. They're just not being able to enforce their religious zealotry on me. Well, it's the same exact thing here, but because we're so used to the term of Christian or Christianity, it doesn't really hit as hard as it should. But essentially we have Christian zealots, Christian supremacists, who are doing everything they can to legislate their high control religious theology onto everyone else. And then when we stop them from doing that, or when a professor gives them a bad grade for a paper that is not only poorly written, but cites no data, then they go, you're persecuting me. No, we're not persecuting you. We're holding you to a higher standard and we're not allowing you to persecute our neighbors. That's what's going on here.

[April Ojoul]

I know, I know. I feel you. Okay, do we want to read our super chats and then we can briefly mention what's happening with homicidal hegseth and then go do our weird Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Can you read these? Can you see these?

[April Ojoul]

No. Yeah, now I can. Okay. From sci Fi Mombi. She's from my town of Springfield, Missouri. Her mother is a lawyer here. Her mother ran for city council, didn't pay her taxes and got removed. I believe they are Christian nationalists. Her mom represented January 6th. Yes. She has a lot of scandals herself. From dog mom for life. From an Oklahoman. Bless your heart, Samantha. Feel that. Thank you.

From Stevie Clown, 2000. I've read better papers by a fourth grader. My daughter is in fourth grade and I concur. Joseph Compton, the fourth. Christians like her won't know what to do when true persecution comes for them. There are Christians who experience true oppression. It's disgusting. Completely agree. From Mama Brooke. I am sick of Fox brainwashing network, destroying our country, ruining my familial relationships and deciding elections by lying, terrorizing and mind controlling. I feel that too. From Jennifer Hoffman, 30. I love this. Go, April. That was my first thought as a daughter of a teacher. This is a horribly written paper all the way around. And embarrassing, right? She should be embarrassed. From Melanie and Lee. I'm a retired college writing tour. She needed to engage the article and cite her sources. Agreed. From the real. Is that an L? Melly.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, Melly.

[April Ojoul]

Didn't she say something about bullying not being bad? But I guess it's only bad when it's directed at her. That's. That's fair. From Joseph Compton, the fourth. This girl is a liar. It's a shame that she's viewed as an excellent example of a model Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Thank you all for the super chats. Those are very.

[Tim Whitaker]

Absolutely.

[April Ojoul]

Help fund our show.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

If you're. You want to get into just, just briefly kind of mention what happened with the boats.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to. Do you have like a MAGA response? Do you want to show that real quick? Just to show like the difference between how they're responding to her and.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. So by now a lot of you are probably aware that it made national news that Pete Hegseth ordered what's called a double tap, which is essentially when they go back to kill more people. So there were some boats invented in international waters that the US has been sniping for some reason. They say it's a drug cartel. No evidence has been proven or has been given. And also they're still supposed to be given due process. Like it's not right for a government just to start killing people indiscriminately. And so this has been going on for a few months now. In fact, I'm not sure if you saw April, but Trump said that we're going to bring ground troops to Venezuela soon. So I guess so much for no new wars. The guy is actually instigating a war. And Pete Hegseth is under fire because he ordered the military to kill the survivors after the first strike in international waters. So Pete Hegseth doubled down. Now, keep in mind, right, we just talked for the past hour about the Christian persecution, people making a big deal about this girl who wrote a terrible essay. But now we have people like this. This is Ali Stuckey. So Pete Hegseth tweeted this picture. It's an image of. I mean, I'm a huge fan of Franklin. I'm a huge fan of Franklin the turtle. A huge fan. Well, Pete Hegseth tweeted a picture of, I guess a book cover of Franklin. It's called Franklin Targets Narco Terrorists. And it's him, like, shooting a rocket launcher at a boat. Which is just unbelievable to see. Again, a secretary of children's book hijacking a children's book and boasting about murder. And don't forget, Pete Hexth claims to be a devout Christian. He's a disciple of Doug Wilson. So, I mean, there's so many things wrong with this, it flies in the face of the teachings of Jesus, all that stuff. Ali Stuckey retweets and says, I fail to see a single thing wrong with this.

And this is actually really important because even though Ali and this right wing movement claims to be pro life and claims to care about people, they actually only care about their people. Right? Because for Ally and for Pete, the people over there who are Venezuelan, they're not really equally as human as they are. So the government's allowed to snipe them out of the water to kill them. I'm sure their fathers, I'm sure their mothers, their sons and daughters, they can be exterminated. That's no problem. And then we can brag about it.

[April Ojoul]

They're not doing any. They're not clarifying who these people are.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, Right. And even if they were, even if they had good evidence of them bringing drugs to the U.S. right, right. It's literally, literally a war crime. They're still supposed to be given due process. You can't just snipe people out of the water. You just can't. And I think what the grossest one, the grossest response to me was, the grossest response I saw was Megyn Kelly was talking about this. And I'm going to read a. This is her quote. I thought this was AI until I saw the video. She says, quote, I really do kind of not only want to see them killed in the water, whether they're on the boat or in the water. But I really. I'd really like to see them suffer. I would like Trump and Hegseth to make it last a long time so they lose a limb and bleed out.

What are we doing? This is the Christian right.

This is what we call genuine Christology. This is evil. This is vi. It's. Dare I say it's demonic. But don't worry, Samantha is the true victim here. Samantha is a victim of woe. Cancel culture as a Christian, but our government sniping out boats in Venezuela. Hey, I wish that we could see them bleed out, says Megyn Kelly.

[April Ojoul]

Because it's way worse to get a zero on a 25 point paper that's not going to impact your grade than it is to be killed in a boat and lose your life forever. That's. That's MAGA math.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, it's just so evident how hypocritical and these people are, right? They don't really care about all life. They don't care about people. They care about their tribe. And they care about using people for their own power and control. Right? Yeah. Ali Stuckey's out here trying to seriously argue for this radical, quote unquote, pro life position where she thinks that even IVF is murder. And then here she is cheering on our government, actual murder. Murdering civilians in international water. She's cheering it on.

It's evil. These people are not. They are. I'm telling you. They are demented. They are twisted with their logic and it kills people like we're killing people. We're killing people.

[April Ojoul]

I'll focus on all the wrong things. They want to stop everything except actual harm.

[Tim Whitaker]

Why don't we get to the nativity scene next week or the week after?

[April Ojoul]

Yeah, we're kind of running out of time. Yes. We've got a lot more next week, so we can move on to our weird Christian segment.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, here we go.

[April Ojoul]

We Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Friends. Really quick before we do this, thank you so much for tuning in and watching live. It means the world. Hello to everyone on substack and on YouTube. Please make sure to give this video a like if you're watching on YouTube. If you're on Substack, smash that heart button. I'm told it helps get into the algorithm of Substack. Also, if you're looking for a place to find a better path forward in your faith, I recommend the New Evangelicals or the organization I started five years ago now under the leadership of Melinda Hale. It's a nonprofit organization that also produces this show. We have our own community space, free resources, all kinds of cool things. Thenewevangelicals.com or you can follow us on Instagram. Thenewevangelicals. Okay. Do you wanna tee us up for this? April? It's a good one.

[April Ojoul]

Yeah. Eric Herk. Erica. Erica Kirk.

[Tim Whitaker]

There you go.

[April Ojoul]

Speaking of a press tour.

She'S been everywhere lately. Oh, another. Thank you for the super chat. Joseph Compton says my favorite part of the show. Yes, it is my favorite segment as well.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

Erica Kirk was interviewed, I think it was was this, the New York Times hosted some sort of, I don't know what this was. It was some sort of event. They interviewed several people. Erica Kirk was one of them and she was basically asked her thoughts on Zoran Mumdani and why he won. Yeah. And I think the question's in here. So let's just, let's see what she had to say.

[Tim Whitaker]

Mamdani here in New York. And the reason I ask is he was somebody who really actually was able.

[News Reporter]

To persuade the younger voter.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean he really captured. But obviously on the complete opposite end, if you will, of where someone like Charlie would have been.

[Erica Kirk]

You know, it's so interesting because I lived in Manhattan for a while and I loved this city.

I'm going to come at this from a female voter because a high percentage of his voters were female.

I think there's a tendency, especially when you live in a city like Manhattan where again, you are so career driven.

And you almost look to the government as a form of replacement for certain things.

Relationship wise even. So you see things a little bit differently.

What I don't want to have happen is women, young women in the city look to the government as a solution to.

Put off having a family or a marriage because you're relying on the government to support you instead of being united with the husband where you can support yourself and your husband can support and you can guys all combine together. But I just find it so ironic and so interesting that a heavy percentage.

[April Ojoul]

Of the individuals that she basically saying.

I don't know what she's saying actually, I don't know, voted for Zoran Mamdani to be a replacement for a husband.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, I mean that felt like the gist. That was the, I mean I have like, just to be clear, relationship wise.

[Erica Kirk]

Again, you are so career driven.

And you almost look to the government as a form of replacement for certain things.

Relationship wise even.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sorry, how, how are these people promoted in these huge spaces when they Say absolute and utter nonsense like that. I've never seen it looks to the government to re. To replace the relationship.

[News Reporter]

How?

[Tim Whitaker]

How does one have a relationship with the government? How?

[April Ojoul]

How? What are you talking about? Someone, like, hair off. So, like, thoughtfully.

[Tim Whitaker]

I know, I know. Where is it?

[April Ojoul]

Where is it? Say something so unthoughtful, so dumb.

[Tim Whitaker]

She even says, like, I'm gonna come at this from. From a female voter perspective. Like, all of a sudden, Erica Kirk represents all women.

You know, to be clear, Mamdani ran on a campaign of making the city more affordable, making affordable healthcare a thing. Making maybe free fares for buses and transportation a thing that's not having a relationship with the government. Like, I. God, April, like, I don't know how much longer I can take the stupidity that we have to cover. Every week on the show, we have someone writing a shit essay about. About nonsense, claiming persecution. And Oklahoma University is like, you know what? We won't count that towards her final grade. We have Erica Kirk saying that female voters are trying to replace their relationships with the government and that's why they voted for Mamdani. Is this. This is the.

[April Ojoul]

The.

[Tim Whitaker]

The apex of conservative intellectualism. This is it. This is what they're offering the world.

[April Ojoul]

Women want a man so badly that they voted for the one that they secretly wanted to be their husband.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, right. Right. Because. Yeah, like, what the hell?

[April Ojoul]

Also, like, okay, I gave Erica a lot of grace that. That first month after Charlie Kirk was murdered, which I think she deserved some.

[Tim Whitaker]

She deserved a lot of husband.

[April Ojoul]

Her husband was just murdered very graphically. I mean, that's a terrible, terrible thing.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ojoul]

Why. I don't understand why she's even there talking about why mom Donnie was elected.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ojoul]

That. That shooting was just like two months ago.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, also, she doesn't live in New York. Why is she. Who cares what Erica Kirk has to say about mom Donnie? She lives in Arizona and runs an organization in Arizona called Turning Point usa. She's not. She's not a native of New York City. She is. She has. She has. She's paying no taxes in New York City. Who cares what Erica Kirk thinks about the mayor of New York City? Who cares? And when she's given a platform to express her thoughts on it, it's the most brain dead thing you ever heard.

[April Ojoul]

I don't understand why one, New York Times even gave her a platform. And two, well, New York Times, she's even. Why she's even doing. I mean, I know why she's doing it, but it is like she is not Behaving like a widow for like, what just happened. Like, maybe she's still living in denial, I don't know. But her behavior is, is odd.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm just, I'm just. Well, the New York Times has been totally, like, going down like the right wing think tank over the past few months. Super disappointing, for sure. So I'm not exactly shocked that they have Erica Kirk, I guess, on this panel. I just don't know why, like, why are we looking to these people as the bastions of intellectualism and to shape public policy when that, when this is like her take, it's not even a good take.

[April Ojoul]

The way, the way she talks like she's got this new. Maybe it's not new. Maybe she's always talked like this, but she takes everything so seriously.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh my God.

[April Ojoul]

Like, the way she's, she's behaving, it seems like she's about to drop something very profound. And then she's not. She's like. And the long pauses. To me, she's like. I think she's just desperately trying to figure out what to say because I don't think she actually has an answer. But she was just like, oh, well, I am.

I'm going to speak on behalf of a female voter.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ojoul]

I think.

Women.

They look at the government to replace.

Familial relationships.

She closes her eyes and she thinks. And then she's gonna say something that doesn't actually make any sense.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's, it's, it's stupidity. I'm sorry. Like, this is, it's dumb. The fact that we, that we even have to talk about this is dumb. This stuff distracts us from the real issues. And I say it every single time. Affordable health care is still not a thing. Wages are far.

Underpacing, you know, the cost of living. I'm not sure if you saw the recent article that came out that kind of shook people up. And an economist essentially said that the minimum amount of money people need in America is $136,000 for a family of four. And people were like, that's crazy. I just, I mean, we have to talk about this shit while, like, actual Americans are really suffering while our immigrant neighbors are being torn apart, while. Because this administration, in the name of God is doing some of the most demonic Antichrist things that we've ever seen in our lifetime. And these people cheer it on Erica Kirk. Cheers that shit on her. Her former husband Charlie Kirk cheered. There's a video of Charlie Kirk, I haven't shared it here, where he's essentially saying, this is before Trump gets into office. We know that the left was going to play a lot of videos of immigration raids trying to get people to feel empathetic, and we have to resist that. That's what he says. He says that these people are cruel. They are cruel people who celebrate our government killing people in international waters, who cheer on watching their trans neighbors suffer, who cheer on people being put into ICE detention centers who have no problem with other forms of clergy getting pepper bulleted in the head. That's all fine and good, but we gotta deal with Erica Kirk talking about how female voters voted for Mamdani because they're trying to replace relationships with the government. And. And we have to. We have to cover a freaking junior in college writing a horseshit essay that your fourth grader could do better, who claims persecution is now making rounds on the right wing. Right wing, you know, circuit. This is what we have to cover. Jesus Christ. It's ridiculous.

[April Ojoul]

I think we have a few more super chats.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay? Then we'll wrap up.

Oh, man. I guess I'm in a mood today. I'm just. I'm sick and literally.

Okay, T boss says, what rambling bull is she saying? How is the government a replacement for relationship and in Manhattan? Lol. Thank you so much for the super chat.

[April Ojoul]

I don't know what she was saying.

[Tim Whitaker]

Dale says, while we're talking about Erica Kirk, what does everyone think about the kiss with JD Vance? We covered that a few weeks ago.

[April Ojoul]

I don't remember. Was there a kiss? I thought it was just a hug.

[Tim Whitaker]

It was like. It was the kiss on the cheek, I think, or something like that.

[April Ojoul]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

And then from Annunciata. I'll just stop there. A token of appreciation for April's perfect Erica impression. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And pj, I am looking at the substack chat you said yes, Tim and April, we know we all would rather not have to talk about this stuff, but we can't not address it because then it remains unopposed out there. Totally agree. That's why we're going to cover it. I mean, part of what we do on this show is we feel the need to respond to this to get people hopefully a better path forward in learning how to dismantle the Christian nationalism that is totally animating this regime. It is. Me and April have an opinion and maybe it's unpopular that not enough progressive media heads are talking about Christian nationalism. And there's a lot of reasons, I think, for that, including they just don't understand the world that April and I grew up in. Which is why we feel the need to do this show every week. Well, really twice a week, because there aren't enough people out there who really grew up in this movement, understand the movement, and then essentially defected while still remaining Christian. April and I are both still very much Christian, but we have defected from Christian nationalism. And the reason why April and I are so passionate about this is because we know the zealotry, the fundamentalism that goes into that mindset and how they will not stop until they've taken over the country. I know that might sound conspiratorial for some people, but rest assured, it is absolutely true. So we cover this stuff every week to prove our thesis that we're not making this stuff up. That's the general idea.

[April Ojoul]

That was beautiful.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank you, April. I. I saved all that for my last hurrah before I go take a nap.

[April Ojoul]

I'm just wiping my. No tears.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Love. Thank you. Well, friends, this is a great show, April. A good one.

[April Ojoul]

Jolly good show.

[Tim Whitaker]

You will not be here next week, right?

[April Ojoul]

No, my six year old is in the Nutcracker.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, so cute.

[April Ojoul]

So she's. She has a school show she's doing, so I have to take her out of school. So I will be gone next Thursday.

[Tim Whitaker]

I will have a special guest filling in. It's a great person, I'm not going to tell you who, but it is someone that I really respect who is a scholar. So we'll have some scholarly academic credentials on the show next week and we'll be talking about whatever's in the news. So that's all I got for today, friends. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Ojoul]

And I'm April Ojoul.

[Tim Whitaker]

See ya.