Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)
Episode: 69 - MAGA Pastors Have MORE Bad Takes to Share on Christian Nationalism
Release Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Tim and April continue their deep-dive response to four prominent Christian nationalist, MAGA-leaning pastors (Josh Howerton, Russell Johnson, Ryan Visconti, and Josh Stapleton), unpacking their arguments and rhetoric regarding Christian Nationalism. The focus is on critically analyzing how these pastors handle objections to Christian Nationalism, their theological logic, historical context, and the ways their interpretations impact broader society. The hosts approach the conversation from a Jesus-centered, justice-oriented, and inclusive Christian worldview, challenging the power-centric dogma of Christian nationalism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Countering Christian Nationalism Requires Nuance

• (00:40–01:54)
  Tim opens by referencing Brandolini’s Law: “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than the need to produce it."
  • Tim: "It takes more energy to refute bullshit than it takes to actually make the bullshit itself. So that's why we go through this stuff so super methodically, because you have to." (01:54)

2. Objection 1: Christians as Exiles in 'Babylon' (Empire)

• Pastors' Argument: America isn't Babylon because it was supposedly founded on "Judeo-Christian values," unlike the idolatrous, judged Babylon of scripture.

• Tim & April Rebuttal: This ignores America's real history of violence, colonization, and oppression, especially regarding the enslavement of Africans (05:35–06:36).

  • Tim: “Ryan, for a lot of people in the country, they have a legacy of seeing America as Babylon because their ancestors were taken from their lands and kidnapped and drug over to America and forced to work for free. They were literally enslaved and they built this country.” (05:54)
  • April: “The term Judeo-Christian values is not really a thing anyway because the Jewish tradition has different values in a lot of cases than Christian... and that term was invented in the 20th century." (06:36)

• Debunking Historical Myth: The hosts debunk mythologies about America’s founding, noting that phrases like “In God We Trust” and “under God” were inserted only in the 20th century (06:52–07:15).

3. Empire, Christian Resistance, and Selective Readings

• Hosts clarify: The Bible’s core narrative positions believers as resisting Empire, not allying with it.
• April: “Is America providing human rights for all people? Is America providing food? Like, are we feeding our vulnerable like that?... America did not exist when the Bible was written, and therefore America is not Babylon by default because America is America.” (09:35–10:19)
• Tim: “We are the largest arms exporter in the world... built on colonization and brutality of other people is somehow not Babylon. My flappers are aghasted.” (08:25–09:08)

4. Pastors' Reinterpretation of Scripture & Christian Political Engagement

• Pastors claim: Even if America is 'Babylon', faithful Jews in Babylon involved themselves in governance to steer toward 'godliness.'

• Russell Johnson: “If you look at Jewish remnant who got taken to Babylon by force, one of the first things... was immediately involve themselves in the governmental role, the governmental sector, to try to steer the nation in the direction of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... all the prophets from that Babylonian era.” (11:51–12:17)

• Tim’s Response: “The three biggest things or reasons why God judges the nations? Because they neglected their poor, they neglected the orphan, they neglected the widow. Those are like the three biggest themes.” (12:41)

• April: “American evangelicalism breeds narcissists and I think attracts narcissists, too, because you're taught, like, oh, if you come to us, we have the only source of truth that you can just, you know, hold over everybody's heads for all of eternity.". (14:25)

5. Who Are Our Neighbors? Selective Empathy

• Pastors argue: Faithful Christians must get involved politically to ensure governments are ‘submitted’ to God, or else oppression will ensue.

• Josh Stapleton: “One of the ways a Christian can most faithfully fulfill the two greatest commandments... is to ensure that your government is happily, gladly submitted to the moral law of God. Otherwise it's going to devolve into tribalism... or tyranny.” (20:14–21:10)

• Tim’s Critique: “Which neighbors? Who benefits from the policies you want enacted? ...It's not your queer neighbor...Not your immigrant neighbor...not your black neighbor...So let's just be very clear about what neighbors you're talking about. You're talking about yourselves, your friends and your kids.” (23:06–24:36)

6. Objection 2: Jesus Did Not Engage Politically

• Objection: Jesus said to make disciples, not register voters, and never outlined plans for political takeover.

• Josh Howerton’s Take: “If our Christianity isn't making our individual self better, our family stronger, our communities more glorious, and our nation healthier, it's not actually working...you are the salt of the earth...” (27:02–28:15)

• Tim’s Counter: Agrees Christians should seek the “welfare of the city” but notes that Christian Nationalists’ approach “does not reflect the actual teachings of Jesus, nor does it actually seek the welfare of the entire city. It usually comes down to privileging them, their kind, their churches, their perspectives over the well-being of everyone else.” (28:48–31:46)

7. On the Words and Teachings of Jesus

• Tim (reading Beatitudes): Points out that the values Jesus actually laid out (mercy, peacemaking, caring for poor & persecuted) are not reflected in the policies Christian Nationalists support. (32:15–34:00)

• April: “If Jesus says, love God and love your neighbor...how do you not see the neighbor is anyone outside your group?” (re: Good Samaritan parable, 23:06–24:36)

8. Cherry-Picking Scripture, Anti-Intellectualism & Theological Gatekeeping

• Pastors warn: Beware of people who try to “differentiate” Jesus’ teachings from the rest of the Bible.

• April’s reply: “Be very wary of people who don't value the teachings of Jesus more than the rest of the Bible. Because what these men are doing is showing you that they don't actually follow the teachings of Jesus. They would choose the Bible without the Gospels if they could.” (66:57–68:24)

• Tim: “To flatten the Bible out and to make it seem like God just spoke it into existence miraculously, and the Bible we have is the words of Jesus—all of it—is not being faithful to what the Bible actually is. There are red letters for a reason, Ryan.” (71:19–73:05)

• On the inerrancy debate: (April & Tim, 73:05–74:20)

  • The way the canon was assembled was complex and highly debated.
  • Everyone ultimately picks and chooses; fundamentalists just aren't honest about it.

9. Historical Lessons: Christendom’s Bloody Past and Power Dynamics

• Pastors celebrate: The rise of Christendom and Constantine’s conversion as evidence that Christianity should form empires.
• Tim: “One of the worst things that ever happened to Christianity was when it went from an outlier subversive movement to the empire conquering through violence and through power and control and dominion.” (56:40)
• April: “They want to be political with the intention of gaining power and oppressing people...What they want to do to trans people...they want to completely get rid of trans people.” (61:20)
• Tim: “95% of the church in Germany went along with Hitler. ...Russell really smooths over the bloody and violent, violent history of ‘Christendom’.” (63:15)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Tim: “You have to be either foolish, ignorant, maybe stupid. I don't know. For you to really think, yeah, we do what Jesus taught us and then do things that are Antichrist in nature.” (39:36)
• April: “I just choose to use the Bible to liberate. And if I get to heaven and God looks at me and says, sorry, you can't come in because you had too much empathy and you loved too many neighbors—then so be it." (79:30)
• Tim (on Christian Nationalists): “These men think they have a direct channel to the God of the universe and that their interpretation of the Bible is the only right one, and therefore anyone who opposes them goes against God. How narcissistic do you have to be?” (45:51)
• April: “I cannot. I've never heard that interpretation [that Render unto Caesar meant Caesar was supposed to bow to Jesus].” (41:29)
• Tim: “You did it, guys, you are the ones in power. You got your guy elected, you know, the rapist and the guy whose best friends are the pedophile and the guy who lies, that guy...So congratulations. You are actually the very thing that I guess you think is tyrannical and globalistic. Like, you are those people.” (51:03)
• April: “Sorry, I just got very annoyed there.” (68:24)

Important Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• 01:40 – Tim explains Brandolini’s Law and why responding to misinformation is exhausting.
• 05:14–07:15 – Hosts debunk “America is not Babylon” argument & expose myth of ‘Judeo-Christian values.’
• 09:35–10:19 – April’s classic takedown of the “Babylon” theological debate.
• 11:51–12:17 – Russell Johnson’s argument for Theobros and O.T. engagement.
• 14:25 – April on American evangelical narcissism.
• 20:14–24:36 – Discussion on who “neighbor” really means & critique of selective moralism.
• 27:02–28:15 – Howerton’s rationale for Christian political engagement.
• 32:15–34:00 – Tim reads the Beatitudes as a challenge to Christian Nationalist values.
• 39:36 – Tim’s frank reaction to Antichrist policies masquerading as Jesus-following.
• 41:29 – April’s bewilderment at a new misreading of “Render unto Caesar.”
• 51:03 – The hosts flip the script: it's MAGA evangelicals who are now the “religious elite.”
• 56:40–57:09 – Tim’s critique of “Constantinian Christianity” and its dangers.
• 66:57–68:24 – April’s warning about those who minimize Jesus’ teachings.
• 73:05–78:22 – The fallacy of biblical inerrancy and interpretive objectivity.
• 79:30–80:21 – The episode's emotional crescendo: Hosts would rather risk hell for too much empathy than accept a gatekeeping God.

Core Takeaways

• Christian Nationalism relies on selective readings of scripture, historical myths, and tautological logic to justify an exclusionary, power-centric agenda.
• Tim and April challenge listeners to prioritize the teachings of Jesus, historical context, evidence, and broad compassion over dogmatic control.
• The episode underscores the danger of merging religious certainty with state power, drawing sobering lessons from both scripture and history.
• Radical empathy and love for all neighbors—not just those like ourselves—stands at the heart of the faith Tim & April advocate.

This summary preserves the lively, sometimes incredulous, and always justice-centered tone of the original hosts, providing a thorough guide and critique for listeners and non-listeners alike.