69. MAGA Pastors Have MORE Bad Takes to Share on Christian Nationalism

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show

Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)
Episode: 69 - MAGA Pastors Have MORE Bad Takes to Share on Christian Nationalism
Release Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy

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Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Tim and April continue their deep-dive response to four prominent Christian nationalist, MAGA-leaning pastors (Josh Howerton, Russell Johnson, Ryan Visconti, and Josh Stapleton), unpacking their arguments and rhetoric regarding Christian Nationalism. The focus is on critically analyzing how these pastors handle objections to Christian Nationalism, their theological logic, historical context, and the ways their interpretations impact broader society. The hosts approach the conversation from a Jesus-centered, justice-oriented, and inclusive Christian worldview, challenging the power-centric dogma of Christian nationalism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Countering Christian Nationalism Requires Nuance

• (00:40–01:54)
  Tim opens by referencing Brandolini’s Law: “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than the need to produce it."
  • Tim: "It takes more energy to refute bullshit than it takes to actually make the bullshit itself. So that's why we go through this stuff so super methodically, because you have to." (01:54)

2. Objection 1: Christians as Exiles in 'Babylon' (Empire)

• Pastors' Argument: America isn't Babylon because it was supposedly founded on "Judeo-Christian values," unlike the idolatrous, judged Babylon of scripture.

• Tim & April Rebuttal: This ignores America's real history of violence, colonization, and oppression, especially regarding the enslavement of Africans (05:35–06:36).

  • Tim: “Ryan, for a lot of people in the country, they have a legacy of seeing America as Babylon because their ancestors were taken from their lands and kidnapped and drug over to America and forced to work for free. They were literally enslaved and they built this country.” (05:54)
  • April: “The term Judeo-Christian values is not really a thing anyway because the Jewish tradition has different values in a lot of cases than Christian... and that term was invented in the 20th century." (06:36)

• Debunking Historical Myth: The hosts debunk mythologies about America’s founding, noting that phrases like “In God We Trust” and “under God” were inserted only in the 20th century (06:52–07:15).

3. Empire, Christian Resistance, and Selective Readings

• Hosts clarify: The Bible’s core narrative positions believers as resisting Empire, not allying with it.
• April: “Is America providing human rights for all people? Is America providing food? Like, are we feeding our vulnerable like that?... America did not exist when the Bible was written, and therefore America is not Babylon by default because America is America.” (09:35–10:19)
• Tim: “We are the largest arms exporter in the world... built on colonization and brutality of other people is somehow not Babylon. My flappers are aghasted.” (08:25–09:08)

4. Pastors' Reinterpretation of Scripture & Christian Political Engagement

• Pastors claim: Even if America is 'Babylon', faithful Jews in Babylon involved themselves in governance to steer toward 'godliness.'

• Russell Johnson: “If you look at Jewish remnant who got taken to Babylon by force, one of the first things... was immediately involve themselves in the governmental role, the governmental sector, to try to steer the nation in the direction of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... all the prophets from that Babylonian era.” (11:51–12:17)

• Tim’s Response: “The three biggest things or reasons why God judges the nations? Because they neglected their poor, they neglected the orphan, they neglected the widow. Those are like the three biggest themes.” (12:41)

• April: “American evangelicalism breeds narcissists and I think attracts narcissists, too, because you're taught, like, oh, if you come to us, we have the only source of truth that you can just, you know, hold over everybody's heads for all of eternity.". (14:25)

5. Who Are Our Neighbors? Selective Empathy

• Pastors argue: Faithful Christians must get involved politically to ensure governments are ‘submitted’ to God, or else oppression will ensue.

• Josh Stapleton: “One of the ways a Christian can most faithfully fulfill the two greatest commandments... is to ensure that your government is happily, gladly submitted to the moral law of God. Otherwise it's going to devolve into tribalism... or tyranny.” (20:14–21:10)

• Tim’s Critique: “Which neighbors? Who benefits from the policies you want enacted? ...It's not your queer neighbor...Not your immigrant neighbor...not your black neighbor...So let's just be very clear about what neighbors you're talking about. You're talking about yourselves, your friends and your kids.” (23:06–24:36)

6. Objection 2: Jesus Did Not Engage Politically

• Objection: Jesus said to make disciples, not register voters, and never outlined plans for political takeover.

• Josh Howerton’s Take: “If our Christianity isn't making our individual self better, our family stronger, our communities more glorious, and our nation healthier, it's not actually working...you are the salt of the earth...” (27:02–28:15)

• Tim’s Counter: Agrees Christians should seek the “welfare of the city” but notes that Christian Nationalists’ approach “does not reflect the actual teachings of Jesus, nor does it actually seek the welfare of the entire city. It usually comes down to privileging them, their kind, their churches, their perspectives over the well-being of everyone else.” (28:48–31:46)

7. On the Words and Teachings of Jesus

• Tim (reading Beatitudes): Points out that the values Jesus actually laid out (mercy, peacemaking, caring for poor & persecuted) are not reflected in the policies Christian Nationalists support. (32:15–34:00)

• April: “If Jesus says, love God and love your neighbor...how do you not see the neighbor is anyone outside your group?” (re: Good Samaritan parable, 23:06–24:36)

8. Cherry-Picking Scripture, Anti-Intellectualism & Theological Gatekeeping

• Pastors warn: Beware of people who try to “differentiate” Jesus’ teachings from the rest of the Bible.

• April’s reply: “Be very wary of people who don't value the teachings of Jesus more than the rest of the Bible. Because what these men are doing is showing you that they don't actually follow the teachings of Jesus. They would choose the Bible without the Gospels if they could.” (66:57–68:24)

• Tim: “To flatten the Bible out and to make it seem like God just spoke it into existence miraculously, and the Bible we have is the words of Jesus—all of it—is not being faithful to what the Bible actually is. There are red letters for a reason, Ryan.” (71:19–73:05)

• On the inerrancy debate: (April & Tim, 73:05–74:20)

  • The way the canon was assembled was complex and highly debated.
  • Everyone ultimately picks and chooses; fundamentalists just aren't honest about it.

9. Historical Lessons: Christendom’s Bloody Past and Power Dynamics

• Pastors celebrate: The rise of Christendom and Constantine’s conversion as evidence that Christianity should form empires.
• Tim: “One of the worst things that ever happened to Christianity was when it went from an outlier subversive movement to the empire conquering through violence and through power and control and dominion.” (56:40)
• April: “They want to be political with the intention of gaining power and oppressing people...What they want to do to trans people...they want to completely get rid of trans people.” (61:20)
• Tim: “95% of the church in Germany went along with Hitler. ...Russell really smooths over the bloody and violent, violent history of ‘Christendom’.” (63:15)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Tim: “You have to be either foolish, ignorant, maybe stupid. I don't know. For you to really think, yeah, we do what Jesus taught us and then do things that are Antichrist in nature.” (39:36)
• April: “I just choose to use the Bible to liberate. And if I get to heaven and God looks at me and says, sorry, you can't come in because you had too much empathy and you loved too many neighbors—then so be it." (79:30)
• Tim (on Christian Nationalists): “These men think they have a direct channel to the God of the universe and that their interpretation of the Bible is the only right one, and therefore anyone who opposes them goes against God. How narcissistic do you have to be?” (45:51)
• April: “I cannot. I've never heard that interpretation [that Render unto Caesar meant Caesar was supposed to bow to Jesus].” (41:29)
• Tim: “You did it, guys, you are the ones in power. You got your guy elected, you know, the rapist and the guy whose best friends are the pedophile and the guy who lies, that guy...So congratulations. You are actually the very thing that I guess you think is tyrannical and globalistic. Like, you are those people.” (51:03)
• April: “Sorry, I just got very annoyed there.” (68:24)

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Important Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• 01:40 – Tim explains Brandolini’s Law and why responding to misinformation is exhausting.
• 05:14–07:15 – Hosts debunk “America is not Babylon” argument & expose myth of ‘Judeo-Christian values.’
• 09:35–10:19 – April’s classic takedown of the “Babylon” theological debate.
• 11:51–12:17 – Russell Johnson’s argument for Theobros and O.T. engagement.
• 14:25 – April on American evangelical narcissism.
• 20:14–24:36 – Discussion on who “neighbor” really means & critique of selective moralism.
• 27:02–28:15 – Howerton’s rationale for Christian political engagement.
• 32:15–34:00 – Tim reads the Beatitudes as a challenge to Christian Nationalist values.
• 39:36 – Tim’s frank reaction to Antichrist policies masquerading as Jesus-following.
• 41:29 – April’s bewilderment at a new misreading of “Render unto Caesar.”
• 51:03 – The hosts flip the script: it's MAGA evangelicals who are now the “religious elite.”
• 56:40–57:09 – Tim’s critique of “Constantinian Christianity” and its dangers.
• 66:57–68:24 – April’s warning about those who minimize Jesus’ teachings.
• 73:05–78:22 – The fallacy of biblical inerrancy and interpretive objectivity.
• 79:30–80:21 – The episode's emotional crescendo: Hosts would rather risk hell for too much empathy than accept a gatekeeping God.

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Core Takeaways

• Christian Nationalism relies on selective readings of scripture, historical myths, and tautological logic to justify an exclusionary, power-centric agenda.
• Tim and April challenge listeners to prioritize the teachings of Jesus, historical context, evidence, and broad compassion over dogmatic control.
• The episode underscores the danger of merging religious certainty with state power, drawing sobering lessons from both scripture and history.
• Radical empathy and love for all neighbors—not just those like ourselves—stands at the heart of the faith Tim & April advocate.

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This summary preserves the lively, sometimes incredulous, and always justice-centered tone of the original hosts, providing a thorough guide and critique for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production.

The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[B]

What's up, friends? Welcome back to the Tim and April Show. I am Tim Whitaker.

[A]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[B]

I hope that your holiday season is going great, hope that your Thanksgiving was fantastic, your Christmas is good, and that your new year is excellent.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

We'll go with that. Yeah. Thank you.

[A]

You're here.

[B]

Thank you very much. I'm here all night, friends. Today what we're gonna do is we're gonna pick up where we left off. Last week we released a part one of. Of April and I responding to four Christian nationalist pastors. Now, to be clear, the last video we did was two hours long. I recommend if you have the. Yeah, it was too long. I recommend if you have the bandwidth to try and get through it before you get to this part. The reason why we do this, maybe let me just give a quick caveat because people might say, why are you spending so much time responding to things like this? Because that's what we have to do. We have to be able to unpack the web and the knots and the propaganda that these men that we're going to get, that we're going to talk about and others push all the time. Because if you don't examine, actually can kind of sound convincing. But I do want to say this. So there's a law. April, have you ever heard of Brandolini's Law before?

[A]

I don't know. Maybe.

[B]

Okay, here's what it is. Brandolini's law states that the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than the needed, than the need to produce it.

[A]

I feel that.

[B]

Exactly. So I know that we only got through like 35 minutes and it took two hours, but that's just kind of like the name of the game. It takes more energy to refute bullshit than it takes to actually make the bullshit itself. So that's why we go through this stuff so super methodically, because you have to. I mean, the reality is, April, you and I could probably pause every sentence when it comes to these.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. I know, but.

[C]

But we're.

[B]

We're trying to find the balance. But if you don't know from left to right, top left to right, we have Josh Howerton, Russell Johnson, Matt Visconti. No, not Matt. Ryan Visconti and Josh Stapleton. I believe they're all mega church pastors and they are all Christian nationalists who think that they're not Christian nationalists, but they actually admit. Admit that they're Christian nationalists. It's a very weird thing.

[A]

They redefine it. They're like, well, if Christian nationalism means this, then yes, we are that.

[B]

It's so frustrating.

[A]

Change the terms. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So we're gonna get right into it. We're gonna pick up pretty much right where we left off. We're gonna get now into them responding to objections that people have about Christian nationalism, and we'll see how they hold up. So anything else you want to add to this, April, before I hit the.

[A]

Play button, buckle up.

[B]

Here we go.

[D]

Caps. We're going to quick hitter these. What we've noticed is once you start talking about this stuff, there's like at least six things that people immediately like. Here's the objections. So here's what's coming at you. I'm going to toss them out. We'll quick hit them. Whoever wants to take it first, hit it. Number one. Wait, wait, wait, wait. We shouldn't be advocating for a Christian nation because we're just supposed to be exiles in Babylon. So we shouldn't really lean in, love our nation, advocate for Christianity, permeate our nation. We're just supposed to be exiles in Babylon and quote, unquote, go out of her thoughts.

[B]

Let me explain this to the audience before we get to their responses. This term Babylon in the scriptures and throughout the church has been used as a metaphor to describe empire. The Israelites were taken into Babylon, the empire of the day. Empire, or Babylon, is brutal. It's built on, you know, coercion and power and control. And there's a very consistent theme all throughout the Scriptures, in particular, in particular the New Testament, that Christians are on the outside or are resisting empire. In fact, even the term gospel, the good news is taken from the empire. Early Christians took the idea of Caesar and being a God who brings good news and repurposed it, that actually Christ, the person that the empire crucified, is the true Lord. So there's a huge theme and a lot of even conservative evangelicals have talked about the need for Christians to be outside of Babylon, not to be a.

[A]

Part of Babylon in the world, but not of the world.

[B]

Exactly. Which I will say, as a Christian, I really resonate with the idea of being resistant to empire. Right. I think as Christians, we are called to be resistant to empire. That doesn't mean that we can't be part of the world. Obviously, we're. We all live in it. We're using technology of empire. But the idea is, how do we Subvert it. These men, though, have very different takes on this notion. I just wanted to give the backstory so you all have context to what they're actually referencing. Here we go.

[E]

Israelites were drugged to Babylon. They did not choose to live there, and they were taken there as a result of God's wrath and judgment on them. Babylon symbolizes in the Bible, ancient idolatry. It symbolizes. Symbolizes divine judgment. Whereas America was founded on Judeo Christian values. If you, if you.

[B]

Oh God. Oh, God. Okay, I need to point out something. This just shows how white Ryan is. April, can you think of any group of people that were kidnapped and drug and taken from their land to America?

[A]

You know, I can.

[B]

You can, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's not white people.

[B]

These so called Judeo Christian principles that the nation was founded on. Like, you know, Ryan, for a lot of people in the country, they have a legacy of seeing America as Babylon because their ancestors were taken from their lands and kidnapped and drug over to America and forced to work for free. They were literally enslaved and they built this country. And Ryan is either ignorant or just doesn't give a crap. And he's so bold, he wants to brag that somehow the foundation of America was. Was built on Judeo Christian values of what? Kidnapping black people from Africa and enslaving them, murdering them, sexually assaulting them. You got to be kidding me.

[A]

Also, the we, the whole Phra. Like the term Judeo Christian values is not really a thing anyway because the Jewish tradition has different values in a lot of cases than Christian. Well, the evangelical tradition.

[B]

And by the way, that that term was invented like the 20th century. It was not even, like, it's not even an original term that the founders used. People don't realize, and you know this, April, that things like the Pledge of Allegiance, adding God to it, or in God We Trust on our money, these were not from the foundation or the, you know, the building of our nation from day one. These were added in the 1950s. Some of them.

[A]

Right. And I like, I think it would be fair to say that Christianity or people's faith had influence on some of the founders. But to say the whole thing, like the whole purpose of our nation was freedom from religion, from state enforced religion. Sure.

[B]

Exactly. People's ideals shape things all the time. It doesn't make it inherently religious. Right.

[A]

And the freedom to worship however you want. Like it. But yeah, it's not just. And also like this, the.

Evangelicalism as we know it today wasn't even around back then.

[B]

Not even close it's ridiculous.

[E]

Prager, he's a Jew. He wrote a commentary on Exodus, and he said that no nation since ancient Israel was more clearly founded on the pillars of liberty and morality ever since, and that's America. So if you were going to compare America to Babylon today.

[B]

It is.

[E]

It'd be. It's completely ludicrous. But that's the exact point. What we're proposing and what we're trying to advocate for is to keep America from becoming Babylon. That's what we.

[B]

It is Babylon, Ryan. We are the largest, largest arms exporter in the world. We have a military industrial complex that makes billions and billions of dollars off of bombing other nations. We bully other nations. We've toppled other nations governments for our own interests. We are the only country in the world to have dropped the nuclear bomb twice in on civilian populations. Like, I don't know how Ryan, like, thinks that. That America, the world's richest country with only 3% of the world's population that was built on colonization and brutality of other people is somehow not Babylon. I'm. My. My flappers are aghasted.

[A]

April, I. I love you. We got to let this go longer.

[B]

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[A]

Hold on. Can I just say one thing?

[B]

Oh, okay, now you want to talk.

[A]

Just kidding. But I just want to say I find it personally annoying, and I've always felt like this, even when I was evangelical. When you have these bro evangelicals, these Theo Bros that sit around and debate.

In my mind what is frivolous and silly ideas like, is America Babylon or not? I don't care. Is America providing human rights for all people? Is America providing food? Like, are we feeding our vulnerable like that?

[B]

Why are we healing ourselves?

[A]

Like, honestly, like, that's. Who cares? I don't care if America is Babylon or not. America did not exist when the Bible was written, and therefore America is not Babylon by default because America is America. That's it. That's just. I hate, like, I hate when people get in the weeds of, like, oh, well, my theology is this, and we're Babylon and we should be exiled. Like, I don't care.

[B]

April, I'm sensing extra attitude from you today, and I'm here for it.

[A]

I don't. I. I am just annoyed that I had to deal with Theo Bros. As a woman in evangelical spaces all my life and that I'm still here dealing.

[B]

With Theo Bros as a former Theo bro. I am sorry. I will try and let this go longer.

Really wild.

[D]

That's great, bro. That's great. Okay.

[A]

And.

[F]

Let'S say for a minute, for the sake of argument, that they are correct that America is this prototypical modern day version of Babylon, which of course is nonsense. But let's just say that they're correct. They would still fail the test of biblical literacy. Because even when you look at the Jewish remnant who got taken to Babylon by force, one of the first things that the Jewish remnant did was immediately involve themselves in the governmental role, the governmental sector, to try to steer the nation in the direction of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You look at Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, you look at all of the prophets from that Babylonian era. So let's say they're correct, which they're not. It's a brain dead take. But let's say they're correct. It would still fail basic biblical literacy because all you have to do is read the books of the Old Testament that talk about the Jewish people who are in Babylon and they are expressly involved in their government and in the legal affairs of their nation to do what they can to steer it in the direction of godliness. And so when they talk about exiles in Babylon, it's like they read half of one paragraph from a blog from Brian Zond and then all of a sudden developed brain dead Anabaptist public theology.

[B]

It really is telling to watch Russell call Anabaptist theology, which predates his own theology, theological tradition, brain dead, when it's actually pretty robust when it comes to nonviolence. The only thing I'll say to this, because I don't want to take up too much time is that if Russell wants to play this game of the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible, somehow applies to Christians today for how they're supposed to take over nation states and rule from the top down, which again like never actually happens for the Jewish people, but whatever. Do you know the three biggest things or reasons why God judges the nations? Because they neglected their poor, they neglected the orphan, they neglected the widow. Those are like, are like, are like the three biggest themes that we see.

[A]

And it just like that was the sin of your sister, Sodom. That's what it says in Ezekiel, right?

[B]

Like, it's just so weird to me to watch. To your point, April, Theobros make it seem like they just have this such clear cut take when they neglect so many of the reasons why God brings judgment on these nations. Thousands of years ago, from the perspective, by the way of the underside, the Jews were a minority, not a majority, okay? And they were trying to Protect their, I guess, rights, you can call them, for lack of a better term, to preserve their own literal lives. Not because they were trying to rule over others, at least all the time. And when they did, it was always a problem. It was always a fricking problem anyway. Just annoying.

[A]

Just like the way that they're laughing, too. It's just so condescending like that. I find everything annoying because they're Christian supremacists, Right.

[B]

They think that people like. Brian Zahn is a very popular theologian who advocates for a nonviolent tradition. He's actually great. His stuff is awesome. There's no sense for Christian nationalists like these guys to listen and learn from different Christian traditions. It's all about which one is the best and how do I conquer the other ones. And so in this case for Russell, he has to denigrate the Anabaptist tradition, which, again, predates his own and is robust. I mean, actually, all of his traditions are robust. You know, but the. The pompousness, the arrogance. It's just very telling of how these men view the world.

[A]

American evangelicalism breeds narcissists and I think attracts narcissists, too, because you're taught, like, oh, if you come to us, we have the only source of truth that you can just, you know, hold over everybody's heads for all of eternity.

And that's just like, part of this condescension. And it's without. With having such a shallow theological take, too.

[B]

Oh, my God. So shall I. Yeah.

[A]

And my biggest problem is, like, I don't care. You can have that interpretation. Like, there's. Everyone believes what they believe, and there's nothing wrong with believing what they believe. But to act like they have the sole source of truth and that no other interpretations of Scripture are valid when they are valid is infuriating.

[B]

For sure. 100% this. Yeah. You know, we often use. I use the metaphor of like, a basement to describe fundamentalism. And these are the gatekeepers. These are some of the biggest gatekeepers of evangelical fundamentalism right here. And I'm sorry, it just. It doesn't hold water to me. It just doesn't. And the arrogance is, like, on display. Right again. There's no humility. There's no sense of trying to learn. It's all about protecting and attacking, which is just foundational to Christian nationalism. All right, here we go.

[F]

Bull crap. It doesn't even make sense. And it's laughable on its face.

[D]

Bro, you got a day.

[B]

That's.

[D]

That's Hawaii rage. Sorry, Josh.

[G]

Dude, you Get a little rest, boy. Look out.

[D]

Come on, man.

[G]

Josh.

I, I mean, yeah, I agree with everything and I have all these thoughts as they go and then they say what I was going to say and so nothing really to add other than everything he just said is true.

[A]

The.

[G]

There aren't a lot of examples of Christians getting involved in politics in the Old Testament, except for generally speaking, all of Genesis, all of Exodus, all of Leviticus, all of Deuteronomy, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, all the prophets. My gosh, they.

[B]

I don't want to be, you know, arrogant or theobro myself, but he does know that there were no Christians in the Hebrew Bible, right?

[A]

They were Jewish.

[B]

Jewish or they were, you know, Canaanites. Like there's Christian. I mean, heck, Jesus wasn't a Christian.

Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jewish man living under the occupation of empire, by the way. And to be clear, I'm a follower of Jesus. I'm not a follower of whatever he might say is the Hebrew Bible or the Christians there, quote, unquote. And Jesus is pretty clear that his kingdom is not of this world. And his kingdom is where the last are first and the first are last. It's literally an upside down inversion of empire of Babylon. Jesus was crucified by the Roman Empire. And I say this because I just read a book on this actually. Crucifixion was designed to humiliate and denigrate. It was only reserved for like, for like the worst of the worst. It wasn't even allowed for Roman citizens. You had to be an outsider or an insurrectionist or someone who wasn't part of the Roman system in that way. And most likely you were crucified while being, while naked. And this is the form that God takes in human flesh. Not a God of empire, not a God of Caesar, not a God of someone on the top controlling the empire, but on the underside of empire, on the lowest possible rung of the human hierarchy of his day. Born to an unwed mother who was a teenager, right? Born in a manger, born into poverty. Like, how do these men read the four Gospel accounts and go, man, we gotta control empire? Because that's what Christ would do.

[A]

Like, Jesus went willingly when he was arrested, didn't tell his disciples to storm Rome's capital.

I don't know how you want to become a Christian nationalist if you read the Gospels.

[B]

Well, you have, you have to follow a very white colonized Jesus, right, who believes in dominating and controlling Your enemies. There's a reason why so far these men have not cited the words of Jesus. Have you noticed that we're talking about the Hebrew Bible and somehow those are Christians in the Hebrew Bible, so. But nothing about Jesus yet. We have not gotten to the red letters. I wonder if we will. I guess we'll find out.

[G]

All of them.

[D]

Besides those, there's no Christian political engagement.

[G]

Besides those, there's really no biblical data to work with in understanding a framework where someone submitted to God would actively engage pagan governments of their day, working to steer them towards submission to a holy God.

[B]

I'm sorry, I have to say one thing. I'm sorry. I thought Ryan said that we're founded as a Judeo Christian nation. So are we a pagan nation or are we a Christian nation? Were we founded as a Christian nation? Did we lose our way? Like, how does the logic work?

[A]

I thought a second ago, it's a Christian nation when it benefits them. It's a pagan nation when it benefits them. That's the logic.

[B]

Got it. Thank you for helping me with that.

[A]

You're welcome.

[G]

And the last thing I'll say is this. I haven't said much actually, so I don't know why I'm saying the last thing. I'm going to talk again more. But one of the things added this is getting involved in politics is one of the ways a Christian can most faithfully fulfill the two greatest commandments. To love the Lord their God, and to love their neighbor as themselves. Because you may not care about governments, but governments care about you. And if the government of your nation is not submitted to the God that you serve, that government is going to oppress and choke and regulate and rob and steal and obliterate your neighbors, including your children. So if you want to do the most good for the most people, you need to ensure that your government is happily, gladly submitted to the moral law of God. Otherwise it's going to devolve into tribalism. That's utter chaos. Or it's going to devolve into globalism and tyranny. That's utter oppression where power is concentrated among the elites. And it's just not going to go well for.

[A]

I remember. I remember when Joe. When Joe Biden won in 2020, I saw a Facebook post from Evangelical that said during the first year of Joe Biden's term, he was going to allow China to come in and take over and Christians would no longer be allowed to worship.

[B]

Well, here we are. It. Fact check. True, True.

[A]

They make stuff up.

[B]

They make stuff up.

[A]

They just make stuff up. And they also believe that you cannot be a good moral person unless you follow their version of a God. And as a Christian myself, who also believes in the Bible, but not in the way they believe it, I've met so many really good people who are atheists, who are Muslim, who are. Any variety of which I've met witches who are very kind. Like, the idea that you have to be an evangelical to have good morals, that your country has to be led by an evangelical Christian in order to have good morals is, like. Is just so backwards.

[B]

Well, yes, and let's just look at the fruit of what they're saying, because for them, Trump is someone who's following the principles of God. I mean, there are huge Trumpers. The rapist, the man who lies all the time, the man who is best friends with a pedophile and is covering it.

[A]

He blew Bubba.

[B]

He. Yeah, that guy somehow is submitted to God in their sick and twisted worldview. But Joe Biden, the Catholic who went to mass every Sunday, is not because he holds a pro choice position. And by the way, Trump is which.

[A]

So do Jewish people, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like in the Jewish tradition, they required. If the pregnant woman's life's in danger, she's required to have an abortion to save her life.

[B]

It is even his comment about, like, you know, loving your. It fulfills the two greatest commandments. Love God. Love your neighbor. What? Who? Which neighbors? That's my question to Josh. Which neighbors? Who benefits from the policies that you want enacted? I'll give you a hint. It's not your queer neighbor. So it's not those neighbors. It's not your. Yeah, it's not your immigrant neighbor. We all know that. It's not your black neighbor because, you know, DEI hires. So what neighbors? Oh, your white conservative ones benefit the most because definitely not your liberal neighbors. You actually hate liberals. You hate Democrats. You have no problem with Trump saying he hates his opponents. You cheer that on. You have no problem with Stephen Miller parroting Nazi bullshit propaganda about immigrants. So let's just be very clear about what neighbors you're talking about. You're talking about yourselves, your friends and your kids. Those are your neighbors that you think Jesus commands you to love. And newsflash, Jesus gives the parable of the Good Samaritan right after he states that, because someone in the crowd asks him, well, who is my neighbor? Hmm. Could you imagine Josh saying that? I certainly could. Well, Jesus. Jesus. Hold on. Not all my neighbors. Certainly there's exceptions here. And Jesus gives the story of the Good Samaritan, which absolutely destroys the narrative that you are supposed to privilege or love one type of neighbor over the other.

[A]

I don't know. Sounds like toxic empathy to me.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

And wokeism.

[G]

Buddy.

[D]

Okay, now, Josh, I'm going to come straight back to you in a second because the objection to what you just said is so I'm going to say something, but then I'm going to come back to you. And here's the objection. I'm going to come back to you with the objection to what you just said is, yeah, Josh, but all the examples of political engagement in the Bible, they were all Old Testament. So in about 30 seconds, I'm coming straight back to you, Josh, with yeah, but Jesus didn't get involved in politics and actually he actively steered his disciples away from it. And I want to say something before I. But I'm coming back to you with answer.

[B]

I'm excited to hear that.

[D]

So on the Babylon thing, what I do want to say is you'll hear this a lot from, you know, sort of, I don't know how to say it. There's a certain segment of Christians that are like, hey, let's stay out of the culture war. Let's stay out of political engagement because we're exiles in Babylon. The weird thing is, here's what we don't want to do. Let's not use one analogy that Russ has already pointed out is faulty. Let's not focus on one analogy to the exclusion of every other biblical analogy for how Christians are supposed to relate to the world. So there's a lot more in the Bible about victory being salt in the world, light of the world, seeking the welfare of the city, a little leaven spreading through the whole lump, the kingdom of God coming on earth as it is in heaven. In fact, I just want to point this out. When Jeremiah gives us the Command in Jeremiah 29 to seek the welfare of the city, even the word politics comes from the Latin word polis that means city. When he is telling them so again, just think about this. When Christians say, hey, exiles in Babylon, so we should stay out of politics. When in Jeremiah 29 he says to seek the welfare of the city, guess what city he's telling them to get actively involved in and seek the welfare of Babylon. He's specifically referring to Babylon in Jeremiah 29. So let's not. It's just, it's like you said, it's just a moot point on exiles in Babylon. Now objection number two. Josh is going to go first and then we'll open it up. Josh McPherson. Yeah, but Jesus didn't get involved in politics. And actually he actively steered his followers away from political engagement. Jesus told his disciples to go and make disciples. He didn't tell them to register voters. Paul didn't lay out a plan for a better Roman Empire. He told people to go and plant churches. Josh McPherson, what say you?

[G]

It's so frustrating. He literally laid out a plan to change nations for the better by commissioning them to go make disciples of all nations. Like, that's the whole point. If our Christianity isn't making our individual self better, our family stronger, our communities more glorious, and our nation healthier, it's not actually working. So I would fundamentally disagree with, with the premise of that, in that when Jesus said, you are the salt of the earth, he's fundamentally encouraging us to be involved in all of life with our Christianity. If you keep the salt in the shaker, it doesn't help. You got to get it out onto our sexuality and onto our families and onto our politics and onto laws. You have to get the salt into the world. Conversely, as well, he said, in addition, rather, he said, you're the light of the world, and we. So we're to take our light everywhere we go. Light doesn't discriminate where it shines. When you turn a light on, it pierces all of the darkness. It shines everywhere. So when people say Christ didn't tell us to get involved politically, first of all, there's so many ways to respond to this. We're not living the same context that Christ spoke in. In other words, they didn't have the opportunity to vote. They weren't living in a.

[B]

So Jeremiah, whatever he cited, that directly applies to us today. But Christ didn't grow up in America, so the context is different. Okay, got it, Josh.

[G]

Constitutional republic. They were living in a globalistic, tyrannical culture where they had no obligations or responsibilities formalized as citizens, where they could exercise that. So it's not. Same context. We have both opportunity, privilege, and I would say obligation to be involved in such a way as to shape our government that our government has given us through our constitutional republic. That is a privilege.

[B]

Can I, can I pause here? Because I actually, here's the weird part. Not weird. I actually agree with them on principle. Okay? I agree on principle that Jesus people have an obligation, a calling to seek the welfare of the city, to love their neighbors, to get involved in how communities form. Right. To promote more equal and just ways. Like I, I agree fundamentally with that. In fact, I disagree with some of the People who are like, don't get involved in politics. I mean, you're essentially erasing the black liberation tradition when you do that, right? You're erasing Martin Luther King Jr. S approach for how he took his theological convictions of justice and inclusivity and liberation and then advocated for that in the nation that he lived in. So I agree on a foundational level, Christians should be involved or be willing to get involved in the politics of their day to seek the welfare of the city however they can. The problem is that what they want, what these four men want and what Christian nationalists wants does not reflect the actual teachings of Jesus, nor does it actually seek the welfare of the entire city. It usually comes down to privileging them, their kind, their churches, their perspectives over the well being of everyone else. Again, a very easy example of this, April, right, is that we know statistically, according to data, that trans healthcare, like transforming healthcare, saves lives. There have been empirical studies done on that. We also know that.

Things like conversion therapy, right, which is where gay people go to a therapist, trying to tell them you can change your sexual orientation leads to higher suicide, you know, rates of trying to unalive yourself and depression, et cetera. We know that data exists, so it's easy for us to say, well, as a Christian, we don't want our queer neighbors to feel like they're at odds with their body or their sexual orientation. So we want to promote a society where they are welcome and accepted because they're made in the image of God. That's not what Josh and Josh and Russell and Ryan are going to advocate for. They're going to say, no, no, no. The Bible, AKA how we interpret it, is clear that God calls that sin. Therefore the society we live in should do everything it can to minimize the rights of those neighbors from getting the access to health care or access to marrying their partner that might actually promote their well being. So it's actually an inverse right ideology where it actually ends up harming many of their neighbors. It actually ends up doing a lot of damage to many other neighbors because they're more committed to dogma than to then to empirical evidence or things that actually promote the well being of their neighbors. You know, based on data, not on dogma. Does that make sense?

[A]

Well, yeah, because Christian nationalism is the elevation of one ideology to the detriment of all other ideologies.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Whereas you can use your faith to advocate for all people.

[H]

Totally.

[A]

Like, and I think we all do that. We all use our beliefs in, in how we vote like, you know, I vote. I vote certain ways because they align more with my beliefs. I don't think you're going to get it 100% because especially in this two party system, but like, it's just. It's the same like you can use the Bible to oppress or you can use the Bible to liberate 100%.

[B]

Look, I just want to read briefly just some of the Beatitudes, right? If there's this. If the logic is disciples of Christ are called to make their nation better, then obviously whatever Christ taught is what we should be doing to make our nations better. Right? So what did Christ teach? This is Matthew 5, verses 1 through. I'm read verses 1 through 10.

Now. When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him and he began to teach them. He said, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Do any of those ideals sound like things that are reflected in. In this current administration that these four men say God is using to make America Christian again? No. No. It's the complete inversion of all those things. Right now our government is sniping out boats in international territory, killing survivors, and we have people like Ali Suki cheering it on, saying this is what God would want. This is not merciful. This is not pure in heart. That's not justice. Yeah, it's tyranny. Right? You're in a boat and another foreign government snipes you out of the water. That's not freedom. That's tyranny. My God. Yeah, I can't believe he's meant to really think that somehow what they're saying makes coherent sense. Read the freaking red letters. Jesus Christ. Literally.

[A]

Yeah. L.

[C]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice and compassion. And that's why the new evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together. I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[I]

Hey there. My name is Christian from the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area and I serve on the New Evangelicals Board as one of the people who helps foster a community through zoom conversations, other online events outside of Facebook. And I'm super proud to be a donor and a supporter and a participant in the important conversations we're having as it feels like our faith in our country is being hijacked to become, well, in my opinion, less and less Christian, less and less like Jesus. So I love our T and E community. I also support Project Amplify because I love seeing. I love hearing other smart, helpful, hopeful, educated voices being elevated to show that there's a better way forward for those who want to follow the life changing teachings of Jesus. I'm proud of the consistently kind, humanizing, respectful and yet red flag raising content that T and E produces.

[H]

This episode is brought to you by Rakuten. The holidays are here and that means it's the most wonderful time of the year. To save with Rakuten Use Rakuten to stack cash back at your favorite stores on top of holiday sales. That's savings on savings. With Rakuten, you can get cash back on gifts for everyone on your list, from toys for the kids to kitchen gear for the person who loves to cook to electronics for everyone. You can even save on something for yourself. Cash back is automatically added to your account as you shop and you can get paid with gift cards, PayPal or check or eligible American Express card members can choose to earn Membership Rewards points. Join for free today and get a new member bonus after minimum qualifying purchases. Just go to rakuten.com, download the app or install the browser extension. Terms and conditions apply.

[A]

This is a real Good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan. Real United Airlines customers.

[B]

We were returning home, and one of.

[E]

The flight attendants asked Bronx if he.

[B]

Wanted to see the flight deck and meet Captain Andrew.

[A]

I got to sit in the driver's seat.

[G]

I grew up in an aviation family.

[B]

And seeing Bronx kind of reminded me.

[G]

Of myself when I was that age.

[A]

That's Andrew, a real United pilot.

[B]

These small interactions can shape a kid's future.

[H]

It felt like I was the captain.

[B]

Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever.

[G]

That's how good leads the way.

I lost my train.

[E]

Jump in real quick and then you pop back in. I was just going to point out, I literally.

[G]

I thought you want to say something.

[E]

To cut you off when you're in the middle of this.

[G]

Just brilliant.

[D]

He's. He's giving me the little signal to come to him next, Josh. That's what he's doing.

[E]

But I really.

[F]

I love.

[B]

Say.

[E]

Someone said Jesus said to disciple people, not nations. And it's like, no, he literally said to make disciples of all nations. Nations. Not all skin colors, not all ethnic tribes. Right. Nations. And what do you think happens, bro, when you disciple all the people in a nation, you get a Christian nation. And that's going to affect everything from the top down. And then when Jesus in the Great Commission said, how do you make disciples of all nations? Teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. How do you teach them to obey everything that Jesus has committed? Not just in the hungry, but also.

[B]

In the courthouse as well, in the schoolhouse.

[E]

That's where you teach a nation to obey all God's commands.

[B]

Great, Ryan, great. So let's get universal healthcare passed. Let's reinforce SNAP benefits. Let's liberate the oppressed. Let's. Let's get rid of mass incarceration, because we're there are. I agree, Ryan, I agree. Let's do what Jesus Christ thought. Oh, God. Jesus never mentions trans people, doesn't mention gay people, doesn't mention abortion. He doesn't mention the Ten Commandments going up in the Roman Empire. All those things are absent from the teachings of Jesus, Ryan. Like, I don't want to call them stupid, but, like, you have to be like, either foolish, ignorant, maybe stupid. I don't know. For you to really think, yeah, we do what Jesus taught us and then do things that are Antichrist in nature.

[A]

They're taking nations literally. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations. But then right after that, it says baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit. So are you supposed to literally, like, hurricane a whole nation?

[B]

Like, oh, my God, I have a coffee. You're making me cough.

[C]

Just.

[B]

Bam. How do you baptize a whole nation of America? You just dunk. Well, you know what? Maybe with global warming, sea levels rising, just a bad joke, but yeah, it's.

[A]

But also, like, even if that. Even if Jesus was saying to go in and make all nations Christian and to obey, like, my teachings, Jesus's teachings are not what they're teaching.

So, like, right off the get go, there's still that disconnect.

[B]

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge. I mean, just like, like, like, do they do that? Is Trump doing that? Do we believe? Like, oh, God, it's just so frustrating. All right, we'll keep going. Friends, if you're enjoying this at all, give the video a like, subscribe to the channel. Thanks for being here.

[A]

Enjoying is a strong word.

[B]

Yeah, well, I don't think we're gonna do a part two.

[A]

I think.

[B]

I think two parts is good enough for this.

[G]

Yeah. When Jesus talked about.

Caesar and our relationship to him, there was a fundamental assumption in Jesus's teaching that Caesar also bows to Jesus. And who's going to teach Caesar that if the church goes silent, it's the church's obligation and responsibility and privilege to remind Caesar that the government is nothing more than a jurisdiction created by God for the good and flourishing of all people only if they are submitted to God's law.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I have never, in all of my evangelical ish life, have never heard that Jesus said. When he said, render to Caesar, what is Caesar, right? He was saying that under the assumption that Caesar followed Jesus, that is, or that.

[B]

That he would, like, submit to Jesus or something. What?

[A]

Like, I was always taught to me that Caesar represents a secular government. And as citizens of this world, you render to the government that you're under whatever it is that they ask for, whether that's taxes, following the laws, whatever. That was always how it was taught to me, even in my very conservative evangelical circles. I cannot. I cannot. I've never heard that interpretation.

[B]

Chapter and verse, Josh. Chapter and verse, please.

[A]

They just make stuff up.

[B]

There's. There's. They have not. Have they cited one scripture verse from the words of Jesus yet, Have they?

[A]

Well, he just did. Saying do what he said. Well, he inferred what he said about Caesar, but then added a bunch of crap that is not there.

[B]

I'm, I'm short circuiting like my, my, my mind is short circuiting over this.

[A]

Oh my gosh, it's like not even worth debunking a lot of this stuff because like what he just said, and I don't mean this like in an insulting way, but what he just said is actually really st. Stupid.

[B]

Like you're just reinterpreting things. Yeah, but don't worry. Once they're the government, then we all have to submit to them. Right.

[A]

We don't talk enough about. And there. I want to be careful when I say this because there are really intelligent people that get sucked up into Christian nationalism.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But the idea. And the same thing with any sort of cult or high control group or fundamentalist. Like there are very intelligent people that get wrapped up in that. In that world. We were in that world also. But there is a, there is a just basic level of anti intellectualism that exists in, within this ideology. Like you cannot be a fundamentalist in the way that like they're talking and be a Christian nationalist or be maga while trying to follow the teachings of Jesus without having a level of anti intellectualism just in your body because there's so much cognitive dissonance like you. The logic goes out the window when you step into a Christian nationalist room because it really is conflicting. And that does not mean that these men are stupid. I think they're probably very intelligent men, but they've been wrapped up in this. Well, and they also could be on a power trip because I do think that that's a big piece of it. You can, you can suspend your disbelief when you get power.

[B]

Yep.

You'Re totally right. 100%.

[G]

100% job as the church to teach the clear jurisdictions of human thriving, which is the family, the, the church and government, and to remind the government that they're submitted to God. And then that.

[B]

By the way, that's nowhere. Like Paul never says that. In fact, Paul In 1st Corinthians 5, I'll quote some scripture for you. In 1 Corinthians 5, the apostle Paul, Paul is dealing with a church where a man is sleeping with his father's wife, like his stepmom, and the church is celebrating it. And so Paul's like, hey, you shouldn't do that. It's sexually immoral. Hand that man over to Satan because he's not, he's not repentant. And then Paul goes on to say by this, I don't mean to judge everyone outside the church who is sexually immoral or else you would have nowhere to go. Because it is your job as Christians to judge those inside the church and it is God's job to judge those outside the church. Like he actually makes a clear distinction of the role of the Christian or of the, of the person in church. And that it's God's job to judge, quote unquote, the world and that it's our job to hold ourselves accountable inside. It's just like so ironic given all the freaking church abuse that goes on in these spaces and the men that get to be platform at these people's churches. Like it's no big fricking deal. Like for example, Michael Brown who went around grabbing women's butts. That's no big freaking deal. But oh, we have to judge the world and make sure that the government knows they have to submit to God. AKA our interpretation of what we think God is like based on a 2000 year old collection of ancient texts of which we have none of the original autographs of. We're just, we're just doing our best to interpret them. And our interpretation compared to everyone else is out there in the Christian tradition, especially the stupid Anabaptists were right and they're wrong. So you have to submit to us because that's submitting to God. It's all about power. These men think that they have a direct channel to the God of the universe and that their interpretation of the Bible is the only right one, and therefore anyone who opposes them goes against God. How narcissistic do you have to be? How egotistical do you have to be? How prideful do you have to be to think that you, a little freaking ant out of billions of years of evolution just happened to hit the theological jackpot somehow these guys just happen to poof. You hit the fricking cosmic lottery, guys that you figured out what the God of the universe wants all of humanity to do. It just happens to look like everything that you want in society. Wow. Unbelievable.

[A]

Well, it's kind of like I feel like their argument falls flat if you think about it from like the eyes of a parent. Right? It is okay for you to parent your children how you see fit. Like you, you can make your own rules and you know, you shouldn't abuse them, obviously, and I think a lot of them do. But regardless, with spanking, whatever. But you could parent, like I could sell my kids. You're not allowed to watch K Pop Demon Hunters because I think it's demonic or whatever. For the record, we love K Pop Demon Hunters. But like, I could say that to my kids and I have the right to, you know, parent my children in the way that I see fit, but I cannot go to my neighbor's kids and say, oh, actually I'm going to unplug your TV or cancel your Netflix account because you can't watch that, because I'm not letting my kids watch that. Exactly like that. All those men would agree that's insane. But they have no problem doing that when it comes to their beliefs on a large national level.

[B]

That's right. These men think that the church is the highest form of power and authority because they represent God. Therefore they have a mandate to make the government submit to them. That's what they think. And they think that they are representatives of that God and that they have been charged with a special anointing, a special calling to talk to the empire, so to speak, and then hopefully to become the empire and to control it. That's what it comes down to.

[G]

They would say this, I think the Pharisees and the Sadducees were a political entity. Oh yeah, they were the political entity of the day. And literally the entirety of the gospels is Jesus combating, Is Jesus confronting Rome? Was and is, is Jesus correcting the political structures of the day in the Jewish world, which were the Pharisees and the Sadducees that were functioning as a, as a mini globalistic, tyrannical, elitist government that were actively oppressing people because they were making up rules unto themselves rather than submitting to the rule rulership of Christ. And so.

[A]

They were clearly religious, dictating their religious laws to the people and their religion.

[B]

Tell me you know nothing about Judaism. I mean, no, Rome was the empire. The Jewish people were allowed to have their own like, like tribunals and councils for how to enforce or how to, you know, follow through on the, on the Torah, the law of God, etc. But they couldn't, they weren't like the, the political leaders. They were sort of the boot of empire.

[A]

Right. And you could argue they had political influence and, and how they talked to Caesar and made trades and stuff. But to say that they were political.

[B]

Entities, I'm just.

They'Re reworking to fit this into their narrative. It's like, honestly, it's almost impressive. It's almost impressive. The globalistic tyrannical leaders.

[A]

Okay, if you talk about political influence, I almost think you could make a connection to white evangelicals today who have very big political influence. But they would argue they are not a political entity, they're a religious entity. But they really are a political entity in the way that they maneuver and in the way that they've infiltrated the Trump administration, which is what we would equate with Christian nationalism. So it's weird how they're.

Also, like, in this world, like, and I don't, I don't. I've heard from a lot of Jewish people that it's not that it's insensitive to call a religious hypocrite a Pharisee because that, like, there were religious hypocrites that were Pharisees in the Bible, but that's Pharisees. The Pharisees were an entire religious group that had their own beliefs and systems. And so totally, I don't, I don't like using the term Pharisee to describe religious hypocrites. I always just religious hypocrites because you don't have to be Jewish or a Pharisee to be a religious hypocrite.

[B]

You could be evangelical, right?

[A]

But when you're an evangelical, like, calling someone a Pharisee is like a curse word. It's an insult. So it's weird seeing them kind of try to use that justification of like, well, these people were political to try to justify them being political when those people were the bad guys.

[B]

Well, in that narrative, isn't that what's telling? Like, look, if we're going to use, if we're going to use this terrible analogy, they're the religious elite and power shaping laws that are oppressing people. Christianity in particular, Evangelicalism is overrepresented in our government. They are making laws in states, they're making laws in, in, at the federal level. They have a billion plus dollar war chests of organizations like the Alliance Defending Freedom that are hell bent on taking cases up to the Supreme Court to rule against the rights of other people. Right? So they're actually the very thing that they're trying to critique. You guys are the globalists. You have a huge missions, missions, infrastructure that exports your theology all around the world. You're colonizing theology. You do that, guys, you are the ones in power. You got your guy elected, you know, the rapist and the guy whose best friends are the pedophile and the guy who lies, that guy, he has. There's an office of the faith council that Paula White is in, one of yours. So congratulations. You are actually the very thing that I guess you think is like tyrannical and globalistic. Like, you are those people. You're in charge. You did it, you got what you wanted and you're creating hell on earth for everyone else. Like, I'm not sure how else to say it. These guys are mega church pastors. They probably make very good money. They probably have lucrative book deals. They are able to go to the White House and worship. We've seen videos of them doing that. They have connections directly to President Trump. They've sat in the chambers of the highest levels of our offices federally. Congrats.

[A]

Congrats.

[B]

You did it.

You did it.

[A]

Good job.

[B]

Yeah, good job.

[G]

Guys argue that literally Jesus's entire ministry was combating the wicked politics of his day, as embodied by the progressive left, calling themselves Sadducees and Pharisees.

[F]

Yes.

[B]

Sorry. Stop. We gotta stop. We gotta stop.

[A]

What?

[D]

What?

[B]

You are sitting here.

[A]

How do you have. How do you say the people that were like, oh, you can't do that, because that goes against this fundamentalist law that we follow. How are those people, the progressive left?

[B]

If anything, progression is when Jesus says things like, you know, you've heard it said, but instead I tell you this. That's progression. That is progressive in nature. Josh, you know what's not progressive? Genesis 1 makes it clear that trans people don't exist. That's not progressive. Okay, I'm just saying, like, ah. Like, what are you doing? Oh, my God.

[A]

Let's keep this going. I'm gonna get a little notebook. I'm gonna make notes.

[B]

Yeah, okay. Good call. Good call.

[F]

Last year, we had evangelicals. For Harris, in the first century, the Pharisees and the Sadducees were evangelicals. For Herod, it was like a subordinated political class that worked in conjunction with the Roman government. They did what they can to, you know, try to better legislate the daily life of the Jewish people who found themselves now occupied by the, you know, superpower of their day, which was the Roman Empire.

[B]

Isn't that what they want to do?

[F]

You know, a religion that does not interfere with a social order will soon find a social order more than willing to interfere with them.

[B]

Why is it happening?

[F]

You just have to make. Make the decision and the determination.

[B]

Wait, I have to replay that. I have to replay that. Did he. He essentially just said the thing that they're trying to do, but made it seem like. Like it was a progressive leftist thing. Hold on, I gotta back this up. I'm so curious.

[F]

Better legislate the daily life of the Jewish people who found themselves now occupied by the, you know, superpower of their day, which was the Roman Empire. But, you know, a religion that does not interfere with a social order will soon find a Social order more than willing to interfere.

[B]

I don't understand.

[F]

So you just have to make.

[B]

I'm pretty sure he just told the quiet part out loud. He made it seem like these evangelicals for Herod were the ones interfering with the Roman government trying to make it better for Jewish people. But that's exactly what you guys want to do. Like that's, that's your whole premise, right? Is that you have to take over government, make it submit to your view of God's law for all human flourishing. So aren't you just telling on yourself here? Am I missing something, April?

[A]

It is so much projection. The things that they accuse progressives and lefts of leftist people of doing is, is what they actually do.

[B]

It's, it's like shocking to me. Shocking. Wow.

[F]

Decision and the determination about whether or not there is real inherent value to the moral claims of your belief system. Because if you believe in those inherent values, then you have no opposition to advocating for those on a local or a national scale. Secondly, you know, when Jesus tells his disciples, upon this rock, I'll build my church. That word church, of course in the Greek is ecclesia. That was an expressly political term borrowed from Athenian democracy. You know, Jesus is utilizing these political words on purpose to describe the framework for the kingdom that he has come to establish. Thirdly, it is the express influence of Christians on the Roman Empire that eventually lead to the conversion of Constantine and the Christianization of the Roman Empire.

[B]

Yes, Russell, you're right. He's absolutely right. It is through Christians getting in bed with empire that Constantine becomes a Christian and then becomes the empire that they were initially subverting. This is one of the most. One of the worst things that ever happened to Christianity was when it went from a outlier subversive movement to the empire conquering through violence and through power and control and dominion.

We are on different sides of the Christian coin here. Okay. There's always been a Christianity that has been focused on domination and power and control and co opting empires and becoming the empire and using whatever means necessary to do it. Violence, intimidation, whatever. And there's always been a stream of Christianity that's been under the boot of empire and has been dreaming for a time. When all the empires right, crumble and the low are made high and the high are made low. The first are last and the last are first, et cetera. This is two different types of Christianity and we're seeing it manifested now in America, but it comes from a very long line of Christian. I mean, Matthew Taylor argues, he calls it Christian Supremacy and that's exactly what it is. So wow. Yeah, agreed. Russell. Agreed.

[C]

Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, Executive Director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus in real tangible ways. As a non profit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[A]

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[F]

You have to do is follow the first century New Testament framework for about 400 years and you see the power of Christendom to take the world superpower of its day, turn it on its head and see revolution, you know, all across the empire in a way that advocates for the greater good and the virtue of the people who stand under the canopy of the empire of that day. And so you know when people say things like, well you know, Jesus never advocated for, you know, a political solution. It's like these red letter Christians who cherry pick things out of the Synoptic gospels and then they ignore the broader context of the New Testament. If Christ is not powerful Enough to be king over the political sphere, then the gospel is not nearly as powerful as we claim it to be. There is a responsibility for believers to find themselves involved in the public square civic engagement that has never once been controversial until recent history, where all of a sudden people want to renegotiate 2000 years of Christendom and act as if we should be living in neutral, not involved, completely disengaged, because that's the most moral or Christian thing to do. It's just backwards thinking.

[A]

Can I say something really quick?

[B]

Yes, please. I talked a lot.

[A]

Okay. I agree to the extent that Christians have always been political in nature. The problem with what he's saying and what their argument is is that they are wanting to be political with the intention of gaining power and oppressing people. And I don't even know that they realize that what they're doing. I think, I think some of them know. But, but you, again, you come from such a basic misunderstanding of a lot of cultural realities, a lot of scientific realities, like what they want to do to trans people, which is, as Michael Knowles once said, eradicate transgenderism. They want to completely get rid of trans people.

They don't see their opposition as human. And when you don't see your opposition, opposition as human as part of the imago dei, as part of God's creation made in the image of God, you will do absolute horrendous things to those people. Like, just like you mentioned, what we're doing to immigrants right now, how we're treating our trans neighbors right now, how we're taking away health care from, from women.

Just not even. Just women, from all the people. Like, like, and, and doing it in the name of God. Doing like what? Whatever it is, you are, you are, you are using the Bible as a weapon.

It's happened in 1930s Germany. Like, like the idea, the idea that just because you can use a Bible verse to justify your position, granted out of context, means that you're somehow on the right side because you have a Bible verse to back that up. The Nazis had Bible verses.

[B]

95% of the church in Germany went along with Hitler. Yeah, 95%. We really have whitewashed what happened in Germany. And we really underestimate the power of Christian theology in that time. Last thing I'll say to this is that Russell really smooths over the bloody and violent, violent history of quote, unquote, Christendom. We've been, I mean, even the Protestant Reformation, bloody wars, death taking over of cities, killing women and children. It's a bloody history when you get into a supremacist mindset, thinking that your view of God, your view of the scriptures, your view of the world is the only right way and everyone else must bow to your whim, Christendom is a horrible thing. You know why? Because Jesus preached the kingdom that's not of this world. At the same time, I think, of course, to agree with these guys, we have an obligation to seek the well being of the city. The problem is that what they're advocating for is actually destroying the well being of so many of our neighbors. And that's not even a question. Even other Christians. Right. We know that most immigrants who have been kidnapped by this administration, first off, have no criminal history. Number two, are either Catholic or evangelical. How about the Christians in Palestine where this administration, or really I should backtrack this American empire because both Biden and Trump have been responsible here, have been dropping bombs on the heads of our, quote, unquote, Christian brothers and sisters in Palestine. Right? So this is what Russell fails to either mention or to understand. He's. This stuff leads down a bloody, violent path.

[A]

It's just a disingenuous argument that because historically speaking, Christians were involved politically and they'll look at the civil rights movement and think they would be on the side of the civil rights. There were Christians that used Bible verses to oppose the civil rights movement. So it's.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

It's so disingenuous the way that they. And honestly, it's part of the Christian nationalist playbook. Right. Especially when you present and believe that your version of Christianity is the only true form of Christianity. So when you, quote, unquote, stand up for your faith and you try to enact your laws that are based on what you believe is moral, then when you get pushback on that, like, hey, you're actually really harming immigrant people instead of like, oh, I'm just standing up for my faith. You hate God.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

The way that they can twist it into this persecution complex. We're seeing it in the last couple weeks. There was that Oklahoma student who wrote an essay about how trans people were demonic and, and said because the Bible, it was, it doesn't matter. It was a terrible essay. But she then framed it as when she got a bad grade as Christian persecution, despite the fact that she provided no empirical evidence. This is a secular college.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, it's, it's just so annoying. I am just constantly annoyed. And then I also feel a little guilty because I used to be just like that.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And it's just so many emotions.

[B]

Let's go a few more minutes, then we'll wrap up.

[A]

Okay.

[G]

And I would, I would add to that.

[D]

Finish it.

[G]

I'm sorry.

[E]

Just one quick note. For any like Christianity 101, I would warn a person listening to this. Whenever you hear people start trying to differentiate the words of Jesus from the rest of the Bible, you get into very dangerous territory. And that is a specific tactic that heretics use to try to justify sins. They'll take a sin that's explicitly denomination like homosexuality. It's laid out very clearly in the Old Testament, in the New Testament.

[A]

Pause. For those of you listening who.

Who are maybe hearing this argument where someone like him is going to say, be wary of people who want to differentiate the teachings of Jesus and the rest of the Bible. Let me tell you, be very wary of people who don't value the teachings of Jesus more than the rest of the Bible. Be very wary of people who will quote the rest of the Bible but don't quote the teachings of Jesus. Because what these men are doing is showing you that they don't actually follow the teachings of Jesus. They would choose the Bible without the Gospels if they could. They actually despise who Jesus was and what Jesus represents represented. Because the teachings of Jesus are a kryptonite to their ideology and them trying to differentiate and try to. And you know, or trying to demonize those who would say, but you're not following the teachings of Jesus. The reason that they even have to say this caveat is because they're not following the teachings of Jesus. And it pisses me off to no end because we are. Chris. Jens, Christ is in the Word. You have to follow Christ to be an actual Christian. Otherwise you're just a nationalist pretending to be a Christ follower. And they have to do all these little justifications. They have to say, oh well, Jesus actually meant Caesar followed Jesus like, no, he didn't. Y' all just don't follow Jesus, period.

I just. Sorry, I just got very annoyed there.

[B]

Oh, bravo, bravo. Fan freaking tastic. 100% right on the money. And notice how Ryan's gonna pick up, quote unquote, the abomination of homosexuality. I mean, it is so amazing watching them pick up. First off, even if, let's just say he's right, he's not. I think the Bible mentions the word homosexual. I think like four or five times in the entire Bible, but has thousands of passages about how we treat the poor and the foreigner and the widow. And for Ryan, the abomination is homosexuality, not how we treat the Foreigner and the Widow and the Poor in our nation. James 5 is a scathing critique of rich business owners who exploit their working class for unfair wages. They're never going to talk about those passages. They're never going to cite those passages because honestly, they are bigots. They need a justification, right, to, to give in order to promote their view of homophobia. That's what it comes down to. They just don't like gay people. They think that gay people are gross and disgusting and that trans people are abominable and are weird. And so they, they pillage the Bible like the freaking colonizers that they are, right? For little, little snippets of text which by the way, on the, even underneath of that don't hold up, by the way, okay? For many, many reasons. And they use that to prove that the Bible's so called. Clear on that. Then they, they spend hours, hours creating these mental gymnastics that would, that, that Jesus didn't really mean what he said. Oh, sure, I know you said liberate the oppressed, but that was about spiritual sin nature. No, it wasn't. No, it was not. It absolutely was not. Oh, Caesar, Caesar followed Jesus, you know. Oh, the Pharisees were like the political government, the globalist government of their time. No, they were not. You were just making shit up. Like you're just, you're pulling it out of your butt. You're just putting it out of your butt.

[A]

Also, a couple of my favorite facts to bring up is that the word homosexuality was not actually interpreted into the Bible until 1946. There's a great doc on that if you want more info. And also King James of the King James Bible was in a gay affair.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So, yeah, I just.

[B]

It is. Anyway, it's, it's. Anyway. Okay, we'll keep going. It's just so annoying.

[E]

But they'll say things like Jesus never said anything about homosexuality and they'll use that to try to persuade people that it doesn't really, really matter to Jesus. But all of God's word comes from God and Jesus is God. And so the spirit of God inspired all of God's word and Jesus supports all of God's work. Yes, you do need to understand the proper place of Old Testament law compared to our, our guiding principles as New Testament Christians. But all of God's Word is useful for us and helpful. We don't divide the words of Jesus from the rest of the Bible to make an argument that contradicts the rest of the, the Bible.

[B]

This is, this is, this is actually a great Maybe, maybe we could stop here. April, I don't know if you want, it's over an hour. But like, just to be clear, like this is just a made up idea that has no actual data. Now, to be clear, I don't think people shouldn't hold to that view. If you want to believe that, that all scripture quote unquote is God breathed. And you, if you want to include that to the New Testament as well, which you know, Paul had no idea about a New Testament because it wasn't made yet, that's your prerogative for sure. But let's be very clear. The Bible as we have it today is a collection of ancient texts from different authors, different editors, sometimes communities editing texts. We have not one single original manuscript in the entire Bible, meaning the people who wrote the first draft of Matthew, for example, we don't have that. It doesn't exist. Okay. And people in different points in history wrote scripture that we now have compiled into the Bible. So for example, the person writing or persons writing Genesis are living in a different time in historical context than the person writing Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. It's not like one day a week ago someone wrote Genesis and say, I'm writing Matthew. It was written over spans hundreds, thousands of years. So to flatten the Bible out and to make it seem like God just spoke it into existence miraculously, and the Bible we have is the words of Jesus. All of it is not being faithful to what the Bible actually is. They're red letters for a reason, Ryan. Because we have the best evidence that we have that maybe Jesus said these words, but he did not say the things in the Hebrew Bible. He did not say kill all the Canaanites, including women, children and men. He didn't say that.

[A]

If he did, he would have contradicted himself. And supposedly the Bible is inerrant, and it cannot be inerrant if you believe that is responsible for all the words of the Bible, because they have contradictions. Also, even just, I think I actually started deconstruction when I was in Christian college and I took a Bible class because they taught me how the Bible was created. And I remember being shocked, shocked at how much debate went into it at how some books almost made it in but then didn't at the last minute. And then how some books made it in at the last minute. And how Martin Luther, who without Martin Luther, none of our religion, like evangelicalism, would not exist because he started the Protestant Reformation, right? He hated the book of James. He wanted to take the book of James in Revelation. Can you imagine, though, like, a pastor getting up and being like, yeah, we're gonna. We're just not gonna read this book because I don't like it. Like, you wouldn't be allowed to even, like, in these worlds say anything like that anymore. So, like, the idea that the Bible is completely inerrant. Jesus is responsible for everything that is in the Bible is like a very new, ridiculous, like, belief system about the Bible.

[B]

And it makes you have to suspend reality. It makes you suspend what is right in front of you. Like, no, Paul wrote the letters that Paul wrote. And in fact, to be clear, Jesus even write the four Gospels. Right? Other people did. So it's like, way later. Yes. And again, that doesn't mean it has to ruin your faith. In fact, I have found the Bible to be more beautiful and complicated than ever before after I lost the notion of biblical inerrancy. But here's the thing. The point that I really want to drive home and then we can wrap up, if you want, is that I don't think that Ryan and Josh and Russell and Josh should not have the right to believe whatever they want about the Bible. If you want to believe it's all God's word to you, and that this is how you interpret it, and this is how you live by it. I'm happy for you guys. I'm happy for you that you believe those things, that's fine. The danger, the reason why we're even bringing this stuff up is because these men believe that their view about the Bible is infallible, that their interpretation about the Bible and how they view it and who God is is infallible and must be superseded on everyone else in this country. That's the problem. The problem is that they don't think that there's room for how these things get done. They don't respect other people's religious traditions. They want to overrule them. They want a government that looks like them based on their dogmatic positions about the Bible and how they interpret it. I mean, it's wild. There's one passage in the Hebrew Bible that mentions, quote, unquote, homosexuality. Really? It's about a man lying with a man. And right after that, it talks about how you can't plant two different seeds in the same field. Ryan would be like, well, that first part is definitely, you know, applies today. But the seeds. Well, that's a. That's a prescriptive or. I'm sorry, that's a descriptive part of the text. Says who? Says who. They just make. They make up interpretive rules and then they hold them as gospel to everyone else. That's our problem.

[A]

That. And also they will say that they take the Bible literally and that is completely inerrant. But they don't take it literally because it's impossible to do that because there's so many conflicting things in the Bible. There are different worldviews within the Bible. And I always say everybody cherry picks. Everybody cherry picks the Bible because you have to. Some of us just admit it, like some of us are just honest about it.

[B]

The fatal flaw in this world is that what, what they. Here's how the, the, the logic goes. They'll be like, well, by what standard Tim or April do you hold these views? And what they're trying to do is they're trying to get you to have some singular like foundational point where you get your moral standards. Then when you challenge them, they'll appeal to the Bible, making it seem like somehow they just read the Bible plainly. What they don't recognize is that they are competing with other interpretations of the same book. They. The Bible is not an objective source for all moral truth. If it was, we wouldn't have 40,000 denominations. We wouldn't have the Eastern Orthodox tradition with their own set of books in their Bible and the Catholic tradition with their own set of books in their Bible, all debating things like salvation and heaven and hell. And if Mary was sinless or not, or what does sin even mean or how do we live. You would not have all of this argumentation throughout thousands of years of church history, including bloody conflicts, if the quote unquote Bible, the English Protestant Bible, was the sole source for moral objectivity via God. But they don't. They will tell you that I'm crazy and that they are somehow the one standing on truth.

[A]

I was just. If God had the intention of making the Bible his inerrant guidebook for all of us to follow, I think he would have been clearer.

[B]

Much clearer.

[A]

I just, I think he would have been clear that.

Just a teeny bit. Just a teeny bit, right?

[B]

Like just put, just put little footnotes like, hey, people in 2025, this part applies to you, right? You know, like Exactly.

[A]

A little. P.S. church of America, you are not Babylon or you are Babylon.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Or, hey, let your trans neighbor get healthcare. It's fine, you know, it's okay.

Anyway, friends, well, listen, I mean, I, I don't think we're gonna, we're only an hour through a two hour video. There's no reason, I think, to kind of keep going I, hopefully people get the point that, that, that this world is just. It's built on such a flimsy argument, but they have real power and they are committed. They are committed to making America in their image. And that's what is the scary part, frankly.

[A]

Yeah, well, and they just use circular reasoning. Well, I can't do that. Why? Because the Bible says.

[B]

Yeah, why?

[A]

Well, why? Because. Well, I can't do that. Like, it's just.

[B]

And, and then when you, when you show them in the Bible the parts about not oppressing the foreigner or welcoming the immigrant. Oh, well, that doesn't really mean what, what you think it means. You have to ignore that part. Like when Jesus says, welcome in, welcome the stranger, welcome the foreigner. Well, that's not what he really meant. That doesn't apply to governments.

[G]

Right.

[B]

That applies to people like what? They're all over the place.

[A]

And to be fair, we do similar things too. We'll say, well, that's not what the original text meant in context. But I try to use context for all of the things, not just when I want to use context, when it's convenient. And also, again, you can use the Bible to oppress or you can use it to liberate. And I just choose to use the Bible to liberate. And if I get to heaven and God looks at me and says, sorry, you can't come in because you had too much empathy and you love too many neighbors.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Then so be it. I don't want to be up in heaven.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If the vast majority of people are not there.

[B]

Could you imagine God's like, hey, you loved your gay neighbor too much. April, you loved your non binary spouse way too much. You have to go to hell for it.

[A]

I'm sorry is who God is. I don't want to worship that God.

[B]

Exactly. Send me to hell. I bet they have free health care then.

All right, friends, well, listen, thanks so much for being here. It means the world. If you enjoyed the video, please give it a like, let us know in the comments if you like this kind of content, if you enjoy the response stuff. If you're listening on the podcast, you can email us the Tim and [e-mail] we always like hearing from you. Yeah, that's all I got for now. How about you?

[A]

Yeah, cool.

[B]

Well, I'll see you all.

[C]

Happy holidays.

[A]

Merry Christmas. Happy holidays, Happy Hanukkah, all the things, whatever, whatever. They all are.

[B]

I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April and John.

[B]

Goodbye.

[A]

Bye. Bye.