← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:01]
Walgreens Employee
Welcome to Walgreens. What can I help you with today?
- [00:03]
Tim Whitaker
Hi, I need a last minute gift.
- [00:05]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
For a secret Santa.
- [00:06]
Tim Whitaker
Something thoughtful, impressive.
- [00:07]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Not a fruitcake.
- [00:08]
Walgreens Employee
We've got Ferrero chocolates, artisan coffees, even a spa kit. Any vibe you're going for?
- [00:14]
Tim Whitaker
Whatever says wow, this guy's great at giving gifts.
- [00:17]
Walgreens Employee
How about this premium skincare gift set? Just needs a bow. Will look like you planned it weeks ago.
- [00:23]
Tim Whitaker
Well, happy holidays.
- [00:24]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Gifts, holiday decor and more. The holiday road is long.
- [00:27]
Tim Whitaker
We're with you all the way.
- [00:29]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Walgreens with Venmo Stash. A taco on one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back with Venmo Stash. Get up to 5% cash back when you pick a bundle of your favorite brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms of Venmo Me Stashterms.
- [00:48]
Tim Whitaker
Get your mother lovin ears on because your big time radio DJs got news. PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff with PayPal, I can pay in store, pay online or pay overtime.
- [01:00]
Caller/Guest Commentator
What's that?
- [01:01]
Tim Whitaker
You want this translated into song? I hope you're sitting down. You can pay your own way. You keep those ears on, you hear. Don't just pay, baby. PayPal.
- [01:13]
Walgreens Employee
Learn more@paypal.com the holidays are all about family. But at the Chrysler wrap of the year sales event, it's all about you. Enjoy every mile in the most awarded minivan in America, the Chrysler Pacifica. With the most standard safety features in its class, available stow n go seating and the available stow and back built in vacuum. Make the most of the holidays with a great deal at the Chrysler Pacifica. Wrap up the year sales event based on Ward's small van segment. Based upon the latest available competitor information. Chrysler is a registered trademark of FCA US llc. You're listening to a new evangelicals production foreign. The Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [02:08]
Tim Whitaker
Hello friends. Welcome into the stream. I am Tim Whitaker. That is not April a joy. What has happened to your scene? Wait, hold on, hold on. Okay, I fixed it. Therehere we go. Dr. Jamar Tisby is in the house with me today. Friends, welcome in to the Tim and April show. I'm so pumped. This is gonna be a great episode. April is doing something. I'm not even sure what she's doing, but she's not here. If you're watching on YouTube. Welcome in. As always, friends, please make sure to give this stream a like subscribe to the channel. It helps get this video out to more people. If you're joining on Substack, hello to everyone over there. Good to see you in the chat. And yeah, we're in for a real treat. So, Jamar, great to see you, my friend. How are you doing?
- [02:50]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Thank you so much for having me on the show, Tim. Obviously, no one can fill April's shoes, but I'm glad to be warming the seat for her.
- [02:59]
Tim Whitaker
I love that. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself for the audience briefly? I don't think a lot of people, they might not not know your work or really our history, which I'm sure we'll get into.
- [03:09]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah, yeah. I'm Dr. Jamar Tisby. I'm an author, educator, and founder of Tisby Media. I'm a historian by trade. I've written several books. But one of the most exciting things I do is substack. So I am on substackamartisby.substack.com Would love for folks to go over there and check it out. I give insights at the intersection of faith, history, and justice. And of course, we have crossed paths frequently because of our mutual revulsion of white Christian nationalism and everything associated with it.
- [03:45]
Tim Whitaker
That is true. It's interesting. A lot of, a lot of folks who maybe just started following the show or following me don't really know. But you and I go back, I mean, over five years now, because I first interviewed you on my old amateur podcast back in the day when you wrote the Color of Compromise. Because that book was fundamental in getting me to rethink what I was taught about race in America and its relationship. I mean, honestly, that, that book, I think, was a cornerstone piece for me. And I was. Excuse me. I was honored to have you on the podcast at the time, and we kept in touch. There it is. Yep. A New York Times bestseller. Honestly, for anyone, for anyone out there who maybe grew up in a world where you were taught that racism, especially systemic racism, doesn't exist or that Martin Luther King Jr. Solved racism in the 60s like me, that this book is really worth reading. It's very accessible, it's very helpful, and it's very matter of a fact, which I really appreciate. But, yeah, I mean, you and I connected. Then I started the New Evangelicals, which is the nonprofit organization that now produces the Tim and April show. And you and I have kept in touch. You've been on the show, you've Been on my, my YouTube lives on TN, even on the podcast, we keep in touch, we travel together. So it really has been a pleasure getting know to become more friendly with you and frankly, the work that you're doing, and I tell you this all the time, is so key, man. I mean too many people do not understand the, the long legacy of American racism and how it's still active and alive today as we're going to find out in a few minutes. So it's great to have you.
- [05:19]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Well, we're going to dive into the deeper stuff, but I think we would be remiss not to mention that we actually shared Philly cheesesteaks in Philly. Like that. That is a core memory for me, you to this wonderful greasy spoon not once but twice because the next day we got this incredible breakfast. So listen, we're talking about the divisions caused by race. I wonder what role Philly cheesesteaks and a greasy diner breakfast can bring in pulling us all together in a new way.
- [05:54]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I, the New evangelicals has a YouTube channel and I brought you in for an in studio conversation and we shared a great meal. Honestly, I love bringing people to Philly. I love bringing them New Jersey diner scene and cheese sticks. But yeah, that was a really good time. Oh man. Yeah, I love that. So, you know, it is interesting, Jamar, because I mean, I really was brought up in that world like, like I told you, where racism just, it was fixed, it was fixed back in the 60s, but honestly, I don't know how anyone really buys that today. I mean, given the current state of what's going on like in America. But as someone who, who is a historian of American history and racism to do you find yourself consistently bewildered by that reality that there are Americans mostly I would argue white ones who just be like, hey, it just no, what Trump is doing, it's not racist at all. He's saving America.
- [06:47]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Well, there's an incredible amount of ignorance writ large and historical ignorance in particular in the United States. We're just so bad at knowing our actual history. Some of the highlights and the headlines which are often whitewashed, that may be part of the cultural conversation, but the real details and the actuality of what happened is so often lost on people. But I'm at the point where I'm like, yeah, it's ignorance, but that's almost too passive. This is a willful ignorance. Like there is so much information out there now, literally we have supercomputers in our pockets. You don't even have to type or tap anymore. You can just say, hey, Siri or whatever it is and ask the question and find out the information that you need. So at this point, this is a willful ignorance. It is a culpable ignorance. We are guilty for this important history that we don't know that is now coming back vigorously and violently and in an ugly way in modern manifestations of racism in the church, in the White House and beyond.
- [08:04]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Friends, if you're just joining the stream, please make sure to give this video a. Like FYI, tne does have some limited edition merch. Don't sit at tables. Jesus would have flipped. You can get that in our merch store. All proceeds support the work of the organization and this show. So why don't we hop into one of our, our. I mean, really, I made the thumbnail about this. I do want to talk about, about this woman who was a Cinnabon employee who was, you know, saying some, I mean, just blatantly racist things to a Somalian couple. Now we're not going to play the video. We don't need to hear it. If you want to go find it, it's on TikTok somewhere. But this is what she looks like. Her name is Crystal, I believe Wiley is her name. And you know, essentially the story goes, friends, is that a video surfaced of this woman at Cinnabon as an employee giving the middle finger to a Somalian couple saying that she is proudly and openly racist and calling them the N word. And this went mega viral. Obviously Cinnabon let her go after this, which, I mean, as a business makes complete sense. Obviously this is bad for business. And I think the, you know, the ironic thing is, as you could imagine, Jamar, because you are a historian, you know where this is going. And it has been interesting watching right wing commentators and Christians either ignore this story completely or in some cases, like try and downplay it. So for example, I want to pick up this tweet. This is Jack Posebeck. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, now Jack Posabek. This is a man who is featured at Turning Point often. In fact, he is a co host of the Charlie Kirk podcast. He spoke at Charlie Kirk's funeral. For those who don't know Jack Posebeck, do you, Jamar, do you remember years ago there was a conspiracy theory floating around that Hillary Clinton was running an underground sex trafficking ring via a pizza shop in D.C. do you, do you.
- [09:53]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
I've been to that pizza shop, yes. Which doesn't even have a basement, but.
- [09:56]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, exactly right and someone believed the conspiracy to the point where they brought a gun to the pizza shop and shot the lock off a door looking for the basement, only to find a storage closet. Jack Pose is the guy who really popularized that conspiracy theory. That's who we're talking about. Okay. And this is someone who, again, is featured on Training Point USA content all the time. Exactly. He said in. In response to this. I have no idea what happened at that Cinnabon in Wisconsin, but I will never, ever believe a viral video from the left at face value. After what they did to Nick Sandman, Kyle Rittenhouse, and Derek Shavan. What are. I mean, when you see these kinds of tweets, what do you think? I'm just so curious to hear your thoughts on this.
- [10:41]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
So this, the subtle play that is super effective here, is using the label the left. This is a random person at a cinema Cinnabon outside of Green Bay. I believe it's Ashwabanon. I grew up not far from Wisconsin, so I've heard these names before.
- [10:59]
Tim Whitaker
It.
- [10:59]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
This is not some operative of antifa or something who has this agenda, who is out there, like, hunting for racist incidents that they can then put on TikTok or sitting down for hours and hours at a computer editing something fake. So it's. It's. It's really convenient to say the left. And anytime something surfaces that you don't agree with, because by labeling it with this word, the left, you. You give the indication that there's some sort of organization behind this, some membership, some specific agenda or list of policy items or objectives that they're trying to achieve. This is a person with a cell phone camera who saw an egregious incident unfolding right in front of them and put it on social media. And now all of a sudden, this is some tactic of the left, and he won't believe it. This goes back to the fake news things. If there's anything that doesn't comport with my view of the world, we'll just say it's false, Right?
- [12:10]
Tim Whitaker
Right, Exactly.
- [12:12]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
That it is engineered by this amorphous group. And it doesn't have to be the left. It could be antifa, it could be immigrants, it could be the LGBTQ community, it could be Democrats, it could be whatever group they want to label it. And by labeling it with these names and these groups, they. They give the impression that it's somehow more widespread and more organized and not just a grassroots concerned person showing this horrific incident to the world.
- [12:41]
Tim Whitaker
Well, and also, I. I want to know from Jack what Context would make a lady calling someone the N word acceptable or saying I'm a racist. Like, I just want to know in what situation when someone says that, do you go, oh, well, you know what, though? Based on this new piece of data, it's all okay. Like, that's the thing is they try and make it seem like, based on the context, this could be okay to say it was justified. Yeah, exactly. It's justified. And it's obviously not like it is. Again, even as a former conservative Christian, when I was in the belly of the beast, I was a homeschooled kid. You even. I knew, like, the N word was so far off limits for anyone under any circumstances. Right. And to see how the Overton window has shifted to now. We're like, well, what actually happened that caused this lady to express her racism? Maybe it's someone else's fault. That part to me is like, what really gets me.
- [13:38]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And it's not new. So it's really offensive that. That he brings up Kyle Rittenhouse, Derek Chauvin in particular, right, who killed George Floyd, had his knee on the neck. That too, caught on video. That is one of the incidents in 2020 that helped to spark these racial justice uprisings that were historically significant. And even in incidents like that of anti black police brutality, often the reaction from the right wing, and in particular right wing Christians is, well, what did they do to bring this on themselves? What did they do to deserve the death penalty on the street? Is essentially what they're saying. So they want to go back and say, oh, well, George Floyd, he was passing counterfeit bills. Clearly he deserved to. To be killed. That's essentially what's happening right here. And I'm speaking in, you know, these. These terms, but when you peel back the words and the intentions, ultimately it's saying that any mistreatment of black people because we're black people, any mistreatment of the other because they're different, can be justified, can be explained away. Let's not deal with the actual racism here. Like Jack, it would have been so easy for you to just say, this is horrible. It should never happen. I don't care what they said or did. Which, by the way, given the scant details that we had, it sounds like they were asking for more caramel on their order. That's the only detail we have so far. So, again, you know, nothing justifies this. And to your point, there was a time not that long ago when it would have been absolutely out of bounds for the furthest right wing politician or Christian Leader to even hint that using the N word would be okay in any circumstance. And now look where we are.
- [15:49]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly. We read all Super Chats live. So I have two of them that came in. So one from that Grace life. Grateful to Tim for this community and to April for her honest book that gave me permission to voice what's been in my heart since 2016. Thank you so much for the super chat, Grace. We appreciate it. And Stevie the clown who's a regular, I see this. This name every single time we go live. So thank you, Stevie. I drive a school bus in small rural district and have few kids of color. But the white kids are using the nword. Sad. These kids are learning hate. Yeah, that is tragic. Thank you for the super chat. I want to go. So, so, so friends, this story happens. This video goes viral. Cinnabon comes out and goes, hey, this is. This does not reflect our values. This person's been let go. Which means that Crystal's about to make a lot of fricking money. Because this, this happens all in Jamar. You know it better than most people. This is the pattern, right? A white person or white woman comes out, says a racial slur, one of the worst ones in America. Right? The N word. And. And. And doubles down and calls herself a racist. Well, our, our. The.
- [16:51]
Caller/Guest Commentator
The.
- [16:51]
Tim Whitaker
The old faithful standby, Give Sin go. Which I gotta say, most people don't know that GiveSendGo is a Christian run organization. Okay, okay. Other platforms will not support this kind of giving campaign. Like GoFundMe. They killed the giving campaign. But GiveSendGo, you know the account or the organization built on Christian values. Oh sure, you want to fundraise for a blatant racist. Here's the description in this Give Send Go campaign. Meet Crystal, Hardworking white mom, capital W. Doing her job at Cinnabon. Two Somali customers decided to make her shift hell with intimidation. Instead of banning the offenders and backing their employee, Cinnabon fires Crystal to keep the nuns N o n s happy. I'm not sure what that is. I don't. I'm not sure if that's a slur or not. We're not letting this slide. Funds go to make sure to making sure Crystal lands on her feet after this betrayal. No white person should lose their job for refusing to be harassed by Somalians. To date, she's raised to $149,000.
- [18:01]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Wow.
- [18:02]
Tim Whitaker
Okay. That's how much she's raised for being a blatant racist in America. And I, I did pull two of the donor comments. I just wanted to read them for the audience. So you understand the people that are backing this. This is from the Vaughn family. Their name is public, so I'm going to say it. We support you. Send them back where they came from. By the people, for the people. It's time for true Americans to shine bright. Thank you for standing up for yourself for women, for the blue collar workers, and for Americans that love this country. 11 likes on that one. And the other comment, protect women's rights from harassments by aggressive foreign invaders. The president already labeled Somalis as garbage and called for mass deportations.
- [18:45]
Caller/Guest Commentator
Whoa.
- [18:46]
Tim Whitaker
This is where we are in 2025, soon to be 2026. America under the white, as you say, Jamar. And you've taught me this white Christian nationalist rule of Donald Trump. It is un. I mean, it's believable, but to me, it is still unbelievable.
- [19:05]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Can you go back to those comments?
- [19:07]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, for sure.
- [19:08]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Okay. We support you. Send them back where they came from. By the people, for the people. It's time for true Americans to shine bright. The subtext in here is that true American means white. Send them back meaning Somalians, immigrants, black people, African, of. Of African descent. By the people. Well, who are the people? It's supposed to be all people. But for the Vaughn family and their $20 to her nearly $150,000 severance package, here it the people means white people. True, true Americans, as they say. Now, I always bring this up, Tim, and it's not hitting like I think it should hit, but it's a pop culture reference that I think tells the whole story. If people don't want to go into the history, then just go to the comic books in the 1940s when they wanted the quintessential American soldier to stand up to the Nazis. Which is ironic now because it seems like they're making space for people with Nazi ideology. Now, what did they come up with? They came up with the character of Captain America. Now, what did Captain America look like? A strapping young fellow, blonde haired, blue eyed, and he represents America. And you know what's interesting is in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, there's no reference to Christianity or God except from Captain America in the first Avengers movie when he says, there is a God, man, pretty sure it doesn't look like that. You know, that kind of a thing. And so it's part and parcel, right? This religion, Christianity, American, patriotic, white. All of that is in the subtext right here. Here's the other part is a gender thing. I thought. I thought there was this whole trad Wife movement. Should, should this young woman be working? I mean, isn't she, isn't she being a feminist here by their own standards? What's going on? Like, get it straight.
- [21:14]
Tim Whitaker
No, it's, it's well said. You know, it's, again, it's just so interesting because growing up in, in the world I grew up in, when I would see things that would talk about true Americans, it would never resonate what you just said. But after again, reading your books and just doing the work and listening more, I'm like, it's so clear, it's so clear who they're talking about, right? The, the, the true Americans look like someone very, very specific. And they're not from certain countries. They don't have a certain skin color. They don't have any. You know, it's a very specific type of person. And it is just. You know, I think for me, what really kills me is seeing this kind of fundraising given are being had on a so called Christian organization. Why is it always the Christian organizations that promote the most vilest you can imagine when it's so evident how antichrist these kinds of things are, right? I mean, even the gospel, I was taught as a white conservative Christian that all people were made in the image of God, that we had to, you know, disciple all people, that we had to reach out to all people. I mean, I was a child. Jesus loves the little children of the world. It wasn't America, it was the world. And so it just is, it's just so wild to watch these organizations claim to like be this, these, these bastions of Christian values and saying, yeah, you, you call people the N word and you give the middle finger to them and say you're a proud racist. Go ahead and fundraise. Go ahead and fundraise. Go ahead. Sounds great.
- [22:42]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Thousand dollars. Wouldn't e do, do like $150,000?
- [22:48]
Tim Whitaker
Don't get me started. Jamar, I talked to, I talked to the team today. I was like, I'm so tired of groveling for $5 a month donations on the Internet to make this work possible. Speaking of which, if you want to donate to the TNE, we are a nonprofit. We're in the middle of 12 Days of Hope. And what we're trying to do is we're asking a thousand people to donate five bucks a month routinely. That's all we're asking for. You can go to the newevangelicals.com support one cup of coffee a month, a thousand of you. And we are well funded for 2026. Hopefully by now at this show, the Tim and April show, you see the kind of nonsense that we are up against every single day, especially when the Trump regime has taken power. So we're a nonprofit. All donations are tax deductible. Please consider supporting the work that we do. It funds. This show makes it possible. Okay.
- [23:37]
Melinda Hale
Hey everyone. Melinda Hale here, Executive Director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen, or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.
- [24:26]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
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- [24:53]
Melinda Hale
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- [25:22]
Leonard Stevenson
Hi, my name is Leonard Stevenson. The seeds of my deconstruction go back to 2016, but I started deconstructing in a big way from Christian fundamentalism in 2019. Since then, I've been continually searching for more information and resources to help me understand the Bible and Christianity better. I first discovered the New Evangelicals Podcast and Facebook group about a year ago and found it to be a tremendously good resource for both information and for online community. Before encountering the New Evangelicals, my deconstruction journey had been primarily intellectual. It was through the New Evangelicals Facebook group that I began to slowly understand all the pain that so many were feeling coming from fundamentals. This gradually opened my eyes to the systemic problems with fundamentalist theology that had always been there, but that had been nearly invisible to me before. Like others in the community, I'm still devoted to seeking God in the Christian tradition, but doing so in better ways. I continue to find the New Evangelicals to be good resource for doing this. Thank you.
- [26:25]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
I want to. I want to. Let's talk a little bit about the history here. So you talked about why is it always that the Christians are doing the most racist, vile things like this? A givesendgo platform. There's a history to that. So I encourage everyone to go out and get the book Unsettling Truths. Unsettling Truths by Mark Charles and Seung Chan Ra. And they go back to the doctrine of discovery and the papal bulls and letters like Dum Diversus. And this is in the 15th century. So, Tim, you were talking about, like, how we both, because I grew up in these white evangelical circles somewhat too, we were taught to. To the world, share the gospel, evangelize. Well, that's part of what the doctrine of discovery was about, but it's only part of it. So the real focus, this was during the age of colonization and imperialism. So what the Pope was saying to these people, these explorers going out on ships, is go out into all the world, find the people there, and if they're not Christian, if they're pagan, convert them to Christianity, and God is blessing your effort. Oh, and by the way, make sure you take their land, kill them if they resist, and extract all of their resources and exploit their labor in the process. And even as you do all that, as long as you're sharing the gospel, right, you're doing God's will, right? So the root determines the fruit. So this goes back, you know, centuries, this combination of commerce and Christianity and also race. Because when they were going out from Europe to these different points in the world, they're encountering people who are darker skinned than them, and they attributed value based on skin color. But if you don't want to go back that far, you don't have to. You can go back to the 1940s and 50s. There is a very helpful, I think, new wave among historians of American evangelicalism that says, you know, it's. It's not necessarily rooted in these revivals of the 18th century and early 19th century. There's. There's some antecedents there, but what we're really looking at when we talk about us Evangelicalism is a phenomenon of the 1940s and 50s Cold War era. So much of this came about as part of the broader anti communist effort. So the United States wanted to position itself after World War II, not only as a global superpower, but as the champion of freedom and democracy around the world against erstwhile ally the Soviet Union, which was spreading communism throughout the world. Right. So it wasn't just a battle between political systems, communism and democracy. It was also a value, a battle between religious systems, Christian democracy, Godless Communism is the way they set it up. And it was a battle that took on mythological proportions where it gets mixed up in this race thing. Because communists, people in the Communist Party, because they were looking at the world in terms of class divisions and the poor versus the rich, they lumped all the poor together. And so they actually made space for black people in Communist Party groups in the United States. And so there was this interaction between black people in the early and mid 20th century and on into the civil rights movement and communists, not necessarily because black people all agree on this system of government, but because these were white people who would actually listen to them, who would actually work with them, because they saw it in terms. Now there were blind spots there, too. I'm not saying that these white Communist Party folks got it all right, but in looking at it through a class lens, they were less inclined to exclude because of race. All that to say in this anti communist Cold War effort. They started lumping in civil rights activism with communism. And we just saw. This is a news story that's recent. A group of neo Nazis marched in Little Rock, Arkansas, right outside of Central High School, which saw National Guard troops deployed there in 1957 when they desegregated the Little Rock Nine. People will know. And they held up a sign that said, race mixing is communism. Now, they did this. This is this week, and they were. There's a photo of them holding up that sign that race mixing is communism. That is a throwback.
- [31:40]
Tim Whitaker
Yes.
- [31:41]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
To segregationist white supremacist signs used in the 1950s and 60s to protest against the civil rights movement.
- [31:52]
Tim Whitaker
I'm trying to see if I can find the picture off the top of my head. I can't right now, but I'll look for it later. But you're right, because I. That line I remember seeing in black on my photos from back in the day, you know, and so to hear that same sentiment echoed again, you always say, Jamar, that history doesn't repeat Itself, but it often rhymes, right? And like it's just, it's the same ideology just rebranded in 2025America. You know, it's the same thing. But that is really helpful to learn about the like kind of how this communism is godlessness and, you know, America or capitalism and democracy is godly, how that kind of formed and how that, how that impacted race relations in America. Another book that also I think is really helpful for people because I. Unsettling truths. It's so good I have that book I've interviewed, Mark Charles, is also the book the Bible Told Them so by J. Russell Hawkins that really goes into how Southern evangelicals really were so adamant how their faith demanded the races stay segregated and how if, if for the government to mandate integration was essentially to violate the religious liberties or the religious freedom. Sound familiar? And it is interesting. I mean, I mean people, most people don't know that. Bob Jones University, for example, Right. They were, they were. That was kind of a, a pivotal moment for what would become the, the modern evangelical movement. Right? Because Bob Jones University, for. Especially for folks on Substack who really have no awareness. Right. Of this world that is animating so much of what we see today. Bob Jones University is a very conservative Christian fundamentalist college. Bob Jones himself was a raging racist. He wrote a sermon, I actually have it archived, called the Bible and Segregation. And he essentially argues that the only true biblical position to have is that the races are to stay separate. And he says all the classic things, I'm not a racist. I'm just saying what the Bible clearly teaches. It's better for. For he's the word Negro, but, you know, it's better for the black person to be in their own world. That's how the Bible created things. Don't listen to the liberal Christians who don't take the Bible seriously on this topic. I mean, that's how adamant he was. Well, Bob Jones University in the age of integration, refused to allow interracial dating on their campus. They eventually allowed one or two black people to be admitted, but they would not allow interracial dating. And the IRS said to them, hey, you have to allow interracial dating or else we're going to revoke your tax exempt status. And Bob Jones University says up, that's a violation of our religious conviction or our religious freedom. They sue the IRS up to the Supreme Court. They lose the case. Jerry Falwell, who it becomes later on, the architect of the Moral Majority, sees what's going on both in public schools with the government forcing integration Quote, unquote, and sees what happens to Bob Jones. That's what gets him politicized, to get involved in politics. And that builds the foundation for the modern Moral Majority movement. Side note, Bob Jones University did not take away their interracial dating ban until the year 2000, folks. Until the year 2000. This is the world that the right wing MAGA movement is built on. The Bob Jones's of the world are all in on MAGA and they're shaping American policy. Now you're the historian, Jamar, you can fact check me. Did I miss anything in that story?
- [35:22]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
You got it. So a lot of this history is coming from the historian Randall Ballmer. It started out as an article in the Nation, but then he made a whole book out of it. It's very short and readable book called Bad Faith. And I encourage folks who want to know more about it to read that book, Bad Faith. But essentially he's arguing that it wasn't abortion and opposition to Roe v. Wade that coalesced the religious right. It was actually desegregation and the threat of losing tax exempt status. Because the way they were interpreting it, the right wing Christians was, well, if they're coming for schools like Bob Jones University, eventually they'll come for churches too. Because if we don't allow desegregation, they'll take away our Texas hemp status too. So again, here comes the money issue involved in race and politics. Right? So that's a critical intervention here because for so long what has characterized the single issue voting of religious right wing people is abortion and opposition to Roe v. Wade and now overturning it. But really what Ballmer is arguing is that what actually brought together the political coalition, the catalyst was opposition to desegregation. And eventually you add abortion and opposition to Roe v. Wade and other issues. But the thing that really mobilized them into a political block was race. Which I think is the bigger point here. My tension that I feel among folks who I would call simply pro democracy at this point, right like we are, we are dealing with a significant and powerful faction of the United States from the politicians down to the voters who really don't see a democracy as we've all grown up understanding it as very useful. And so I'm speaking about all the people who are against that view and who want to see democracy in some way, shape or form. I'm very vexed. It gets to the age old problem in the United States where we will not deal with race head on. The manifestations of it are small and big. A small but I think important manifestation is we want to call it Christian nationalism. I have always insisted we call it white Christian nationalism. Now people will object. Well, what about black people or people of color who are parroting the same points? There have always been people among oppressed groups who carry water for the oppressor as a way to gain advantage, or they're true believers and are honestly ignorant about the dynamics there. That does not fundamentally change the white supremacist ideology embedded in white Christian nationalism. So I just say the white part out loud.
- [38:40]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [38:41]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
But the other manifestation of it is a refusal to see how. Let me put it this way. I can't think of a single urgent issue around justice that is not somehow integrally related to race. It doesn't mean it only is related to race, but it is integral. Let me give you an example.
- [39:10]
Tim Whitaker
Go ahead.
- [39:10]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Right now we are looking at ICE and Customs and Border Patrol officials abducting people off the street. Yep. Not only are they just snatching them up, they're brutalizing them in the process. We're looking at a Supreme Court case recently that said, essentially racial profiling is just fine. In order to do that. And it's interesting to me, Tim, what if we had listened to the Black Lives Matter protesters when we were talking about anti black police brutality?
- [39:49]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [39:50]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
When we were talking about a militarized police force on the streets in our communities brutalizing people the same way ICE is doing now. Let's go further back. What if we had listened to the Black Panther Party? Because you remember the full name for the Black Panther Party. It was the Black Panther Party for Self Defense. Self defense against whom? Against police who were seen as an occupying force in black neighborhoods. So this is an age old issue, but we have failed to deal with not just racism writ large. I'll go even further. We have failed to deal with anti black racism in real ways. And it has led to all of these ripple effects that are now the reason why we're in such a crisis. I'm just talking freely on the Tim and April Show. This is Jamar Tisby talking. Attribute it to me.
- [40:42]
Tim Whitaker
Tim and April, I'm not going to stop you.
- [40:45]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
I'm just going to say that a failure to deal with anti black racism is how you get a Cinnabon worker ranting to somebody who just wanted a snack. Right. It's how you get in the White House authorization to go after tens of thousands of people to cut off immigration, to cut off refugee status. I. We want to make it about everything but anti black Racism. And I'm saying until we deal with that specific manifestation, we will continue to see all of these other injustices. I'm not saying play the oppression Olympics. I'm not saying it's the only issue that matters. I am saying the things they do to harm and oppress black people. It may start with black people, but it will ripple out to others. And here's the point I was going to say before. The only reason why people feel like it's a crisis right now is because it's affecting white people.
- [41:59]
Tim Whitaker
Yep.
- [42:01]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
So think about everything that we're dealing with. Unjust incarceration, with immigration, suppression of voting rights, gerrymandered districts. Hmm.
- [42:13]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [42:14]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Does that sound familiar?
- [42:15]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [42:16]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Where have we seen that before?
- [42:17]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [42:19]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
All right, let me. Shut up.
- [42:20]
Tim Whitaker
Why? Why would you shut up? I'm just saying that's why I got you on the show.
- [42:24]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
It's two. It's two people on the show. Let me let you know.
- [42:28]
Tim Whitaker
No, man, I. Look, there's. There's a reason why when April said she, I had to find a co host, I was like, oh, my first call was to you. Because I love talking to you. I love the wisdom you bring. And frankly, we need truth tellers. Like I, I'm such a believer more than ever that in the age of propaganda that is intentionally designed to muddy truth, we need clear eyed thinkers to be very clear and to say things plainly so people really get it, you know, And I think, look, I mean, you know so much more about this than I do, but from the little I've read and have I've been meditating on these ideas, I completely agree. You know, it seems like, like, like, like the, the root of anti blackness in America is we're foundation for the tree and the leaves and the branches and everything else that we're seeing today. Right. It all comes back to that. I mean, frankly, it feels like, and forgive me for putting it crassly, but like black people are like the first wave or line of like what's coming. Right. When it happens to that community first, that's a sign of what's coming down the pike for everyone else. And I do think you're right that, and this is a really fair critique, I think, and it even goes for me and for April. We talked about this, but you know, it wasn't until I saw a Christian flag being paraded around the Capitol building where I was like, whoa, right. It wasn't until I read your book until I saw the murder of Ahmaud Arbery, where I was like, whoa, right? It wasn't until, like, I saw Trump being prayed around in my circles where I was like, whoa, something's wrong. And I think, you know, to a degree, part of that is you don't see something until it happens to you. I think that that's like a human thing. But also in our context, it's also a sign of how little the white evangelical church listens to black Christian voices in particular. Right? I mean, look, this is kind of insider baseball. And for folks on subsect, by the way, I know some of this might be like, what are you guys talking about? You have to understand that part of my passion as an individual and also Jamar's, is that we feel the need to help you understand the theology and the Christianity that is animating the Trump regime. Because too many, and I mean this with all due respect to these people, too many secular progressive pundits and media talking heads do not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear the theological side of all of this. Right? And that's understandable because the white evangelical infrastructure, it's like America's biggest cult that no one knows about. And I say that as someone who just sort of substack post calling it that as a former white evangelical. Okay? But really, there is a world beneath the surface of American culture that operates, that is well funded, that has billions of dollars in networking and organizing skills that has been there for, for a long time, building coalitions and networks to shape public policy in ways that you just don't understand. Because these people believe that God has given them a God given right to rule over the country. And I know for folks who did not grow up in this world, it feels almost, almost like Alex Jones level conspiratorial like. Tim, take the tinfoil hat off. No, I'm telling you, this is real, Jamar. I just did a thread today and then we're going to move on and get back to our stories. But while I'm on my soapbox, I did a post today where I said, if I told you that there's a group of people who believe that they have supernatural power to go to physical locations in the world to release it from demonic strongholds and that they believe that they are taking territory for the kingdom of God by praying in those specific regions, and if I told you that one of those people has their own White House office right now and brings people to the White House to declare that the White House is God's territory, not Satan's, and that they believe they're really anointed to change things in the spirit realm. You probably wouldn't believe me, but it's 100% true. That is what's happening right now. Look up Paula White. Look up Landon shot. Look up Chaon. Look up Sean Foy. This is what they believe in. They're in the White House. So this is why for especially for the subset community, because I know we're a little bit newer to sub sac a different kind of audience. This is why we do the Tim and April show, because we want to cover what's happening current event wise, but we want to give you the Christian nationalist side of it. Because if you don't understand that, you're never going to be able to fully combat. Not fascism, Christian fascism, because that's what we're currently experiencing. Okay, I'll stop ranting.
- [46:52]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah, it is all true. Check it out. Check out that thread. I was reading it this morning. I was like, just head bobbing, nodding, agreeing. Absolutely, it's there.
- [47:08]
Melinda Hale
Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenuevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show Notes. Thank you for standing with us.
- [48:21]
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Melinda Hale
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Tim Whitaker
It flagged that message as a scam.
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Tim Whitaker
Phew.
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- [49:54]
Tim Whitaker
Well, why don't we do this? We got a few more minutes here. I do want to play this clip. I mean, speaking of, you know, racism, I just think it's so key to see that when the commander in chief, so to speak, of our country says horrible racist stuff, it obviously has real effects. I mean, I just played. All right, I just showed you this clip here or this little image from Give Send Go, where a donor says, the president has already labeled Somalis as garbage and called for mass deportations. Okay. You might be thinking, what did he really say? That I'm gonna play this little montage that I made of Trump talking with all of his cabinet members, and I'll let it speak for itself. Here we go.
- [50:35]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Get your barf bags ready.
- [50:36]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. Really.
- [50:37]
Caller/Guest Commentator
I think that waltz is a grossly incompetent man. There's something wrong with him. And when you look at what he's done with Somalia, with Somalia, which is barely a country, you know, they have no. They have no anything. They just run around killing each other. And when I see somebody like Ilhan Omar, who I don't know at all, but I always watched her. For years, I've watched her complain about our Constitution, how she's being treated badly. Our Constitution, the United States of America is a bad place. And I think she's an incompetent person. She's a real terrible person. But when I watch what is happening in Minnesota, Somalia ripped off that state for billions of dollars. I don't want them in our country. I'll be honest with you. Somebody said, oh, that's not Politically correct. I don't care. I don't want them in our country. We're going to go the wrong way if we keep taking in garbage into our country. Ilhan Omar is garbage. She's garbage. Her friends are garbage. These aren't people that work. These aren't people that say, let's go, come on, let's make this place great. These are people that do nothing but complain. Let them go back to where they came from and fix it.
- [51:53]
Tim Whitaker
Thank you very much. I purposely left the end in so the audience can see and the podcast audience can hear people clapping after that. How do you and most of these men in this shot, Jamar, you know this, claim to be followers of a brown skinned refugee born in modern day Palestine named Jesus. That's what they claim to follow Jesus. And here they are listening to a president say, first off, blatantly untrue things. Let's just start with that. These aren't true accusations at all, but blatantly dehumanizing things about other people groups. And also a sitting congressperson. Right. And what's the result? Cheers AND applause Wow. I mean, we've been in this work now for a couple. I've been in for a couple years. I'm still jaw dropped at the level of depravity that this administration pushes daily.
- [52:53]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah, I'm glad you left the applause in because that was the gut punch for me. I've heard the President on racist rants before. It is his brand at this point. This was particularly egregious, which we'll get into. But the applause at the end, like, he just said something that was like a mic drop moment that was so profound and truth telling and the sycophancy in that room is disgusting. The boot licking is disgusting. But what he's saying, like, there's so many different levels to this. On a very basic level.
- [53:35]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [53:35]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
It is now normal for the President of the United States to call a congressperson by name garbage. And that isn't even the worst of what he did or said right in those clips. So again, you mentioned the Overton window shifting here it has shifted again. President used to be something that children aspired to. They wanted to grow up and be president one day. If I hear a child saying that, I'm like, what president do you have in mind? Because to grow up and to be like this president is something that I think every parent, even the parents in that room applauding him might say, no, don't do that.
- [54:21]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [54:22]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Don't talk to me. We don't we don't, we don't say those things. Right. And yet they're applauding them in the White House. And we as the American people are just like, I don't know if we've become numb or callous or apathetic or demoralized or what, but this language coming from the president toward another political official, that's just one part of it. But that used to not be okay.
- [54:47]
Caller/Guest Commentator
Right.
- [54:48]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And now it's not even the biggest part of the story.
- [54:52]
Tim Whitaker
I was trying to find. You know, you're an historian, so you don't forget things. You remember a few years ago when Joe Biden gave this speech, I think it was in front of the White House, he had red lights behind him. And he talked for maybe a minute or two about the, about how. And he was very specific. I think he said something like how like the white supremacists or like the maga fascist, something like that are America's, like, greatest threat. And right wing Twitter went off the handle. This president just called half of America terrorists. This president hates you. This president is out of control. The most radical president. I'll see if I can find the clip or the video later, but I remember that vividly. And now we have a president, right. Who calls reporters piggy.
- [55:40]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yes.
- [55:41]
Tim Whitaker
Who calls Somalians garbage. Garbage. Who pushed the racist lie with JD Vance that Haitian people were eating cats and dogs. Right.
- [55:50]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
I thought that would be the end.
- [55:51]
Tim Whitaker
Like, not a, not only was it.
- [55:56]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Racist, but clearly it's so bonkers. Like just your, your, you know, wacky uncle who you want to put in the corner with the football game on and say, just let him tire himself out. Don't pay him any attention. That's how he came off. And yet it was no big deal. And that was in a debate where he got demolished on a verbal, intellectual level.
- [56:20]
Tim Whitaker
Anyway.
- [56:21]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah, keep going.
- [56:22]
Tim Whitaker
No, I was just going to say that, you know, I, I, it is. The hypocrisy is baked into the pie, right? Because you know that white Christian nationalism, its values are power and control. They're going to utilize whatever they can to, in an effort to give them those two things. I'll give you one more example that actually is relevant to our Cinnabon racist lady over here. So people don't, it's not really being covered. But this lady, Christy Willsie, she has a lengthy rap sheet which includes no way. Charges of child endangerment.
- [56:54]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Shut up.
- [56:55]
Tim Whitaker
I, I swear to God she has. Charges include child endangerment, disorderly conduct and drug possession as well as traffic offenses, court records seen by the New York Post show. Okay, so this, so to put it another way, this woman, right, by right wing nationalist standards, is a druggie, hates her own kids, and yet she's being supported and promoted and funded by the same people who would tell you that there's a war on children because of the radical left trying to quote trans kids. And here they have a woman who has charges of child endangerment and that doesn't matter. And the answer, the question you ask then is, well, why? Well, because what gives them more power and control? What maintains the status quo and who benefits from the status quo? That's the question you have to ask.
- [57:47]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Let me address this because a lot of people will be in my mentions whenever I talk about white Christian nationalism and examples, egregious examples like this is, well, why call them Christian?
- [57:57]
Tim Whitaker
Well, go, yeah, do that.
- [57:59]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
There's, there's a couple of reasons. One, let me give the geeky academic reasons, because Christian nationalism is a discipline of study in the academy. So there's this broad umbrella of religious nationalism. Under it there are all kinds of religious nationalism, there's Hindu nationalism, Muslim nationalism, all kinds of nationalism.
- [58:23]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [58:23]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
There's also Christian nationalism, which again, as I say, white Christian nationalism. And when you don't use that term, you're actually cutting yourself off from this entire body of scholarship dedicated to unpacking and understanding the religious dimensions of nationalism.
- [58:42]
Tim Whitaker
That's right.
- [58:43]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And so we can't just say it because we don't like it.
- [58:47]
Tim Whitaker
Like, that's right.
- [58:48]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
The reaction tends to be, well, I'm a Christian, I don't believe that. I don't think that's what Christianity looks like. Let's stop calling them Christian nationalists. Right, Right. Like I get that impulse as a person of faith myself.
- [59:01]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [59:02]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
But on, on a level of wanting to understand what's happening, there's history, theology, sociology, you name it, and it's all using this label. So it is, is, it is an actual label and a sub discipline of study that if you're not aware of it, you won't be able to access that knowledge or data as easily. But then there's another level on a witness level. Right. I don't think the salient question is are white Christian nationalists Christian? I think the salient question is what responsibility do other Christians have to form a counter narrative to white Christian nationalism? Because for whatever we think of their words and their actions, they are using the Christian label. And by the way, they are behaving in terms of rituals like a Lot of other Christians, they go to church, they read the Bible, they pray, they sing praise and worship songs. They have crosses on their necklaces. Like the, the Spokesworth person, Carolyn Levitt.
- [60:15]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. Who prays every time before she goes out.
- [60:19]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Like, you know, and so. And they're not, they're not claiming Allah or someone else. Right. So the, the issue is they're calling themselves Christian. And that's what we actually have to deal with is how do we as people who are pro human dignity, pro democracy, pro common courtesy. Right, Human courtesy. How do we say, no, no, no, that's not actually what it looks like. It looks a lot more like Jesus. And this, that what they're doing, ain't it?
- [60:55]
Tim Whitaker
100%. And if I could add to that on the white evangelical side. Right. Because one of the problems of white evangelicalism is this supremacy mindset that they have the true faith. And what happens when you deconstruct that is you go from one extreme to the other where I had the true faith and now, well, they're not true Christians at all. And that's just actually not the case. The American. Sorry. The Christian world has always had a streak in it, since Constantine, of violence and empire building. Okay. It is a particular stream of Christian thinking. Now, of course, there's always been counter streams and narratives to that kind of Christianity, but this is part of the Christian house, so to speak, that we have to be able to deal with. And I think what happens when we say they're not true Christians, we do two things. One, we're playing the game of no true Scotsman, Right? We're playing the game of. Well, my. On some imaginary authority. I'm telling you that you're not really one of us when in reality they are in the house. But number two, I think what it does is too, is that it absolves Christians, especially white Christians, from having to actually combat it on their own turf as Christianity. Right. And so I think it's really important that we are truth tellers. And like you said, they are Christians. They might be Antichrist and what they advocate for, but make no mistake, they are participating in a long lineage. As you pointed out with the book Unsettling Truths of Colonization and Empire Building and domination and control, does it run counter narrative to the teachings of Christ? Of course. That's why if you ever listen to a Christian nationalist preach, like even Charlie Kirk before he was killed, or you listen to Ali Stuckey or Doug Wilson, they rarely if ever quote the words of Jesus because you can't. You can't read the Sermon on the Mount and come away with building more crosses for your enemies. It's an impossible task. Right, so they appeal to obscure verses in the Hebrew Bible. Maybe, maybe they'll appeal to something that Paul said about Romans 13 in the government. But they rarely quote the words of Jesus. So I agree. You know, we have to be able to hold them to the standard of no, you are a Christian, which is why I'm going to fight you on this tooth.
- [63:03]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And that's a good point. I like that. Like, okay, you want to say you're a Christian. Okay, here's the standard. You are not meeting it in any way shape. Matter of fact, you're going against it at every turn.
- [63:12]
Tim Whitaker
That's right.
- [63:13]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
To go back to the President's comments about Somalis, part of it is he's always looked down on African countries. Majority black countries, whether on the continent of Africa or Haiti, has been a frequent target of his. And he referred to their country essentially as dysfunctional. It's all wars and everything. Meanwhile, you hear him talk about other nations, whether England or Germany, Denmark, Hungary, Denmark will never say such things about those places. What his twisted logic is doing is saying those countries are more well off financially, politically stable, whatever. Because they're white.
- [64:05]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly.
- [64:06]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Because they're European, because their population is more capable. He may or may not say that out loud. I don't think he would have any qualms saying it out loud. I just don't think he would put it together. But here's the thing. With so many African nations, they were colonized by Europeans. So I was looking it up. Somalia was colonized by Britain, Italy and France. And it wasn't until 1960 that they achieved a level of independence which did not include repair for the exploitation over decades of colonization. So now you're talking about a nation that has been left impoverished by the exploitation of European imperialistic colonial powers. And it's only been, what, 70 years or so since they achieved a level of self determination and they were still never given a level playing field or a fair shot. So he wants to attribute the instability of the nation, the poverty of the nation and many parts of the continent of Africa to the fact that there are people of African descent there and not to the fact that this was part of systematic colonization that left nations hobbled for generations. And that's the conversation that he can't have.
- [65:29]
Tim Whitaker
Man, I could talk to you for hours about this because you're so right, because there's so many examples. Think about Charlie Kirk saying prowling blacks are looking for white people. Right? Or the narrative you hear that, you know, well, it's total bullshit. But, you know, 13% of the population commits 50% of the crime and they just happen to be black, which isn't even true, by the way. Okay. Black people, particularly black men, account for 50 to 60% of all exonerations in America. Okay, like, the data is ridiculous on this. Right. But those talking points are then reinforced when you hear Trump say something about Somalia. Oh, right. I associate this anti blackness I've been taught with this country because black people are there. And of course, it's more run down because, look, they're more lazy in America. They don't want to work, yada, yada, yada, Right? That's how the system is set up. And then of course, when you think about Denmark or Sweden, oh, they're so advanced. They have all these benefits here and there. You know, they're so peaceful. Never mind that we, I don't know, had a little world war less than 100 years ago sparked by Germany that like killed millions and millions of people. Right. That all goes out the window. So I think you're totally right here, Jamar. Like, it is, it's.
- [66:37]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
What's their dramatic investment? Reinvestment in rebuilding Europe. Post World War II, there were monies funneled into these countries to make them whole again after being a battleground in the largest world war in history. So that never happened in Somalia or African countries. And again, what sort of. The tie that binds all these different stories together is not just. It's white supremacy. Right. Writ large. But it's not just racism. It's anti black racism. And if there's one thing I would encourage listeners to wrestle with, it's that it's the way this so often and so directly ties to anti blackness and anti black racism. Now you'll say, well, what about other groups? Certainly Native Americans were exploited and oppressed in egregious ways. As we look at immigration, so much of the worst history of immigration has been anti Asian as well. Here's the thing that I think makes anti blackness a particular sticking point. One is the refusal to sort of just deal with it head on. But two is it was so entangled in the economic system of the United States. So Alexander Stevens, who was the vice president of the Confederacy, people don't often think about the fact that they formed an entirely new nation and government. Right. It wasn't just Confederates Against Union, it was the Confederate States of America that had its own Constitution and had its Own president and Vice President Jeff Davis was the president. Alexander Stevens was the vice president. Stevens gave a speech called the Cornerstone Speech, colloquially. In it, he talked about slavery being the cornerstone of the Confederacy. And in some of the articles of secession, like from South Carolina, Mississippi, Virginia, they talked about slavery being the greatest material interest in the world. So if you ask why I say so much of this goes back to anti black racism. It's because so much of anti blackness was caught up in economic labor exploitation. It was a money maker, the biggest. And south and north were implicated because where do you think they shipped the cotton to go overseas? They shipped it north to get refined a little and then overseas to Europe to get made into actual fabrics and clothing. So everybody was implicated. And I think it's because of that economic factor that it was so tied up with so much wealth that anti blackness has such a stranglehold historically and in the present day.
- [69:45]
Tim Whitaker
That's. That's really, really, I mean, as always, really really good stuff. Let's read a few super chats here that came in. Thank you so much, friends. By the way, if you're enjoying our special guest, Dr. Jamar Tisby, please give this video a like if you're watching on YouTube and smash. I think it's the heart button on substack. I'm not sure what that button does besides make us feel good, but smash it anyway. Okay, future chats here. Then we're gonna get. We're gonna get to another small story. Then we'll get to our weird Christian bleep for the day. Let's see. Joseph Compton. This is their playbook. Do something racist. Get fired for their foolishness. Run to give, send, go and repeat absolutely true on the money from Leanne Zack. Thankful for your voice as a pastor and seek to take down racism and misogyny in the church. Love that. Thank you so much for the super chat. Just a super chat from Curtis Randall. Thank you so much. And from Stevie the clown. Again, I'm 57 and was raised by a very racist father. Even back in the 70s, I knew all his crap was horrible. Thank you, doctor, for teaching truth of history. Love that. And then Margaret Walker. I've never sent a super chat before, so I hope this works. Hey, it did.
- [70:51]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Thank you.
- [70:52]
Tim Whitaker
Thank you for both. Everything that you are doing that means the world, friends. The Tim and April show is produced by the New Evangelicals. It's a nonprofit that I started in almost, wow, five years ago this month.
- [71:04]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
There we go.
- [71:05]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. I can't believe it's been crazy and as a nonprofit, what we do is we help people be equipped to expose and reject Christian nationalism. And we help people get find a better path forward in faith rooted in love, justice and inclusivity. Melinda Hale is our executive director. She is totally killing it. She came on board in July. We have so many free resources. If you're looking for a better path forward in your faith, check out TNE Connect. It's our private community space, totally away from the all seeing eye of meta. It's a free download or you can access it online. There's no cost to any of our content. You can get access to regional group chats to our book club. Right now we're going through Kathryn Stewart's book Money Lies in God, which you know is such a banger of a book. Yep. We do free courses, all that good stuff. And if you want to support the work that we are doing, it's the end of the year and anyone who runs a nonprofit or has started one knows this is a crucial time for us to make our funding goals for 2026. We are looking for a thousand people to become $5 a month donors to help support the work into 2026. Someone asked me in the chat, I saw it earlier if it's more helpful to do a super chat or to become a monthly donor. Let me just be real with you guys. Super chats are great. YouTube takes 30% of any super chat right off the bat.
- [72:23]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Okay.
- [72:24]
Tim Whitaker
So what helps us more is by going to the newevangelicals.com support become a monthly donor at five bucks a month. You can even use Apple pay. It's really seamless. And that will make sure that this show and our other offerings are able to be funded into 2026. Okay. So that would be a huge help. I really appreciate our friends for all your love and support over the years. It's been amazing doing this work. Truly the privilege of my life. Okay, I want to do one more story that's a little more, I guess, kind of lighthearted after that talk. You brought this up, Jamar?
- [72:56]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Oh my.
- [72:57]
Tim Whitaker
I did some research, so I'm not going to spoil it just yet. I'll just say that, you know, the World cup is coming to the Americas. Super exciting stuff. What a cool thing. And FIFA developed like a Peace Prize and they decided to give their first Peace prize ever to someone that we all might know. I'm going to play this little montage now. This is a like a 10 minute video. So I cut out a lot just to kind of give people the play by play. Let's just watch this video together and see how it goes.
- [73:31]
FIFA Narrator/Announcer
The inaugural 2025 FIFA Peace Prize is proudly bestowed upon the President of the United States of America, the Honorable Donald J. Trump. He has supported efforts to broker ceasefires and promote diplomatic engagement, actions that helped create conditions in which peace could take root. Under President Trump's leadership, the historic Abraham Accords were signed, bringing the first real progress in the Middle east in decades. President Donald J. Trump's actions have also ensured that peace exists between Israel and Hamas by brokering the Gaza peace plan. And he is making a continued effort to bring a lasting peace between Russia and Ukraine.
- [74:25]
Tim Whitaker
I have to pause here. I didn't want to, but the genocide of the Palestinian people is still going on. Israel has been so clear in their goals to destroy Gaza and to invade it. The amount of propaganda from. From FIFA on this is like, it's jaw dropping. All you got to do is go on social media and follow freaking Ms. Rachel to know about the horrors of what's happening to Palestinians. And the ceasefire deal did not stop the ceasefire. We obviously know that people, children have died. And FIFA's like, Donald Day Trump, the man of peace, who brought peace to Gaza and Israel. No, you did not, you liar. Sorry, I had to say that. It's unbelievable.
- [75:12]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Well, this is also coming in the middle of congressional investigations about bombing alleged drug boats from Venezuela.
- [75:22]
Tim Whitaker
I know, I know.
- [75:24]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
From everything we can see, it's. It's fishermen right out there doing. Trying to make a living, and they're getting killed by U.S. missiles. And I saw that they just seized an oil tanker or something. Like, this is.
- [75:39]
Leonard Stevenson
This.
- [75:40]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
This. This guy's winning a peace prize and he's actively fomenting a war that does not need to happen.
- [75:47]
Tim Whitaker
Right? Literally, his administration is. Is. Is giving us the pretext for why they're going to invade Venezuela.
- [75:52]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Exactly.
- [75:53]
Tim Whitaker
It is. It's wild. Okay, we'll keep going.
- [75:56]
FIFA Narrator/Announcer
As FIFA President Gianni Infantino has said, in an increasingly unsettled and divided world, it is fundamental to recognize those who work to end conflicts and bring people together in the spirit of peace.
- [76:11]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Who is that? Not Trump.
- [76:13]
Tim Whitaker
Not Trump. Now, this is the trophy. Okay, look, I'm going to be creepy, bro. It's creepy.
- [76:22]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Hands rising out of a grave.
- [76:25]
Tim Whitaker
But I. Look, I. I'm not one to be crass on this show, but it just looks like, you know, a bunch of countries are tickling someone's. You know what? I'm sorry. Like, it's so especially given, like, how much this. These People suck up to him. It just seems that way, you know, like, whatever it takes, Trump. Whatever it takes.
- [76:49]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
This is, this is why we need April on the show. We did a woman's perspective.
- [76:54]
Tim Whitaker
She'd probably be the one to say before I did knowing.
- [76:59]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
But yeah, yeah, that's the trophy.
- [77:01]
Tim Whitaker
It's gross looking, to be honest.
- [77:02]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
It is terrible. Like, just, just make it abstract or.
- [77:06]
Tim Whitaker
Yes.
- [77:08]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Let me also say about. Well, you can finish the clip.
- [77:12]
Tim Whitaker
Okay, Mr. President, this is your prize. This is your peace prize. There is also a beautiful medal. Where you want to go.
- [77:29]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Who picks up their own. Like.
- [77:34]
Tim Whitaker
Where'S the face?
- [77:37]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Look at that.
- [77:38]
Tim Whitaker
Who does that?
- [77:39]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
What is this?
- [77:43]
Tim Whitaker
Wow. Remember when, remember when Sean Hannity made a big deal? When President Obama ordered grape Poupon and a burger? Remember that? I don't remember that. Oh, it was a whole Fox News segment. You can look it up. Whole Fox News segment. Okay. And here we are now, 2026. This is their guy.
- [78:01]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
This is a meme. This has to be a meme somehow, dude, right now.
- [78:08]
Tim Whitaker
Okay, let me hold.
- [78:09]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Because he's treating the president like an episode of the Apprentice.
- [78:13]
Tim Whitaker
Totally. Totally. Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America, in recognition of his exceptional and extraordinary actions to promote peace and unity around the world. I had to end it there because like you said, we are literally sniping Venezuelan boats out of the water with no due process. We have, we have reports that sometimes they're waving flags as they're being shot at. We're killing survivors. And this, this joker is like Donald Trump, the peacemaker. The peacemaker.
- [78:47]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah. Let's talk about Gianni Infantino. I wrote about this because this awarding of the peace prize comes just days before the anniversary of Martin Luther King Jr. Getting the actual Nobel Peace Prize, which Trump was campaigning for hard. And I love the kind of subtle clapback. It's very Nobel esque, very kind of sophisticated kind of clapback. There. The chair of the Nobel Committee, Jorgen Watney Friedness, he was asked about this pressure campaign that Trump was putting on, and he says, we receive thousands and thousands of letters every year of people wanting to say what for them leads to peace. This committee sits in a room filled with portraits of all laureates. And that room is filled with both courage and integrity. So we base only our decision on the work and will of Alfred Nobel. And the idea was like, we are sitting here among people who have gotten the award for actual courage and integrity. Trump ain't ever going to be on this wall, is what he was saying. So, so why does he get the FIFA prize? Because Gianni Infantino is a Trump sycophant.
- [80:05]
Tim Whitaker
Yep.
- [80:06]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Here's what he said. This was an article from the ap. Infantino has been a frequent visitor to the Oval Office, including in November when the administration announced new efforts to expedite visa processing for World cup visitors. Infantino had a prime seat at January's inauguration. And I love this part. FIFA has established an open office at Trump Tower in Manhattan. So, like Infantino, I don't, I don't know, maybe one of his hands is a mold on that trophy.
- [80:41]
Tim Whitaker
Infantino infantile.
- [80:44]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
He is.
- [80:45]
Tim Whitaker
He is so.
- [80:47]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And, and, and according to news reports, nobody knows how Trump was selected. Like, there's no official process. There was no committee. It was. And in case people didn't know, this is a brand new award. This is the first time they've ever awarded it. And there was really no question as to who it would go to because the head of FIFA, Infantino is such a big Trump fan.
- [81:10]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, I mean, it's probably the first and only. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, you know, it is so funny watching these people be like, oh, like globalism is bad. I don't like, you know, liberal nonsense. Then here they are pining over a Nobel Peace Prize, and so they're so mad that Trump, the warmonger, the convicted felon, the sexual assault, you know, person, right, who was found liable by a jury of his peers for sexually assaulting a woman. He doesn't get the peace power. So what do they do? His billionaire buddy over at FIFA is like, don't worry, buddy, we're going to make you your own award. That's what we're going to freaking do. And we're going to give you our own freaking peace prize for sniping those Venezuelan boats and calling Somalians a bunch of garbage. Because that's what peace is in America. That's what it is, dude. That's how stupid these people sound.
- [81:57]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Ridiculous. Simplistic. My simplistic theory that what's behind all this is a bunch of dudes who didn't get to sit at the cool kids table in the cafeteria now getting their revenge, right? And then, you know, it's not just that they come up with alternative stuff, but when they get in charge of the lunchroom, then they take over all the old stuff that for years they said, well, I didn't want it anyway because they didn't get it. But now when they're in charge, they want these things. Like, what was it the Kennedy Center Honors. Right. And the Nobel Prize, well, if it's not given to them fairly, they'll just take over the institution that grants it and give it to themselves.
- [82:39]
Tim Whitaker
So these are a bunch of guys who never went to therapy. Like, dude, just go to therapy. Like, talk to your therapist. It's going to help you, I promise. It's really good.
- [82:49]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Okay.
- [82:49]
Tim Whitaker
All right. Anyway, friends, thanks again for being here. Means the world. Make sure to give this video a. Like, subscribe to the channel. If you're on substack, smash that heart button and make sure you follow Dr. Jamar Tisby subsack. It's so freaking good. Okay, let's get to, you know, a little more of a light hearted segment. Kind of our favorite segment of the show, We Christian. There we a little zingy for us. Yeah, Tables. Okay, so now, Jamar, I. This is is. This is. This is a blind watch. You have not watched this clip, right?
- [83:20]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Not seen this.
- [83:21]
Tim Whitaker
Okay, I just want to preface for the audience, this is a real clip. This is not sarcasm. This is not satire. This is a real clip. I'm gonna play it. It's only 17 seconds. And then I want your just raw reaction. You ready? Here we go. Jesus would accept all immigrants. What would you say to that?
- [83:40]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Demonstration that we have from Jesus kingdom.
- [83:44]
Tim Whitaker
Is that it has walls and there's no way anybody would be able to enter this kingdom that would defile it.
- [83:49]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And so if you want the best example of an ICE commander, it's Jesus Christ himself.
- [83:56]
Tim Whitaker
There you go.
- [83:57]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
No, he didn't.
- [83:59]
Tim Whitaker
Oh, yeah, he did.
- [84:00]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Best commander. The best commander is Jesus.
- [84:06]
Tim Whitaker
I'm gonna play it one more time so the audience can really soak that in, just in case someone was driving and almost crashed into a light, you know, a telephone pole. Try it one more time. Here you go. Jesus would accept all immigrants. What would you say? That demonstration that we have from Jesus's kingdom is that it has walls and there's no way anybody would be able to enter this kingdom that would defile it.
- [84:28]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
And so if you want the best example of an ICE commander, it's Jesus Christ himself, Lord.
- [84:36]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's quoting from what he's. The video cites Revelation, which is climbing. This is so classic. This is such, such a textbook, like, move, right? Why quote the words of Jesus when you can quote Revelation and apply that to the red letters? But yeah, there you go, man.
- [84:51]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Well, I would like for him to. To cite Revelation 5, 9, and 7:9, Revelation 7, 9. After this I looked and there before me was A great multitude no one could count. From every nation, tribe, people and language. From every nation, tribe, people and language. I'll say it one more time because the Bible likes threes. From every nation, tribe, people and language. Standing before the throne of the lamb. So what are you talking about? Wow. You know, and Jesus had a lot to say about leading children astray.
- [85:32]
Tim Whitaker
Isn't it weird that they will cite, you know, better for a millstone to be thrown around your neck than they cause one of these little ones to stumble? They'll cite that when it comes to their quote unquote, trans, you know, ideology that they think is destroying children. But when men like this, like, give these kids blatant bs, or when pastors sexually assault children.
- [85:52]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Right.
- [85:52]
Tim Whitaker
Or they protect the COVID up of child molestation. Well, why would we apply that verse to those people?
- [86:00]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah, man, that one's. At first I thought he was. He was talking to AI Jesus on that, that graphic, that image right there.
- [86:07]
Tim Whitaker
Right there.
- [86:08]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
White Jesus.
- [86:09]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, the white is.
- [86:10]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
But the pastor was the worst. Wow. Yeah, thanks for that little bit. That'll haunt my memories.
- [86:19]
Tim Whitaker
It is. I mean, this is.
- [86:20]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Dude, the.
- [86:21]
Tim Whitaker
The world is wild out there, man. I mean, how do you say that with a straight face thinking that somehow you. Like what? Like Jesus in Matthew 25 says that those who welcome the foreigner will enter into eternal paradise, essentially, and those who don't will be essentially thrown into the eternal flame. Right. He says what you do for the least of these, you did to me. And here's what happens. And you know this. What they'll say is they'll go, well, Jesus was just talking about his followers, his brothers and sisters, other Christians. Even if we were to apply that standard, we both know that most of the people being targeted in this regime are Christians. So either Catholic or evangelicals. Right? So either way, whether you think that it's applying to Christians only or not, you're still oppressing your. Your own family, so to speak. Right? But no, that verse doesn't matter. That section from Jesus doesn't count. It's. It's something rando in Revelation that then leads me to say that Jesus was the greatest ICE commander. Really? He was beating people in the streets and throwing them into concentration camps. That's what he was doing.
- [87:31]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Throw up a. Throw up a vomit emoji on the screen. That's all I can say.
- [87:36]
Tim Whitaker
Well, Jamar, I really appreciate you, man in for April. It was really great having you as always. Where can folks find your work if they, if they want to follow you?
- [87:44]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
Yeah, the best place is Jamar tisby.substack.com I have my own podcast called the Justice Briefing. I'm going live tonight actually at 8pm it's going to be a very special episode with a special guest. And yeah, I write there weekly at the intersection of faith, history and justice. Or if you want to do deep dives, I have books. Color of Compromise was the first one. What Went Wrong? How to Fight Racism. What do we do about what went wrong? And the spirit of justice. How do we keep going when what went wrong doesn't seem to be going right?
- [88:20]
Tim Whitaker
All great books, truly. I read them all. I've had them all. They're fantastic. Friends again, we have this limited edition T shirt for our 12 Days of Hope campaign. The New Evangelicals is focusing on hope this holiday season because, let's face it, things can feel hopeless, but there's always hope to be found. If you want to support the work that we're doing, please consider becoming a monthly donor. At $5 a month, the newevangelicals.com support the new evangelicals is what sponsors and produces this show. So if you like guests like Dr. Jamar Tisby and you like this show with me in April, please consider becoming a monthly donor. I appreciate you all. That's all I got. Thanks so much for being here, friends. We'll talk to you all later on. See ya.
- [88:57]
Dr. Jamar Tisby
See ya.
- [88:58]
Tim Whitaker
Sam.