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70. Cinnabon Employee Cashes Out After Hate Tyrade - The Tim & April Show | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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70. Cinnabon Employee Cashes Out After Hate Tyrade

The Tim & April Show

Fri Dec 12 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show

Episode 70: "Cinnabon Employee Cashes Out After Hate Tyrade"
Air Date: December 12, 2025
Hosts: Tim Whitaker (The New Evangelicals)
Special Guest Co-Host: Dr. Jamar Tisby
Theme: Unpacking a viral racist incident at Cinnabon, the response from right-wing Christian nationalism, and the underlying historical, theological, and systemic roots of racism in American Christianity and politics.

Episode Overview

In this episode, with April Ajoy out, Tim Whitaker is joined by historian and author Dr. Jamar Tisby to examine a recent viral incident involving a blatantly racist Cinnabon employee, the subsequent response (and fundraising campaign) from right-wing Christian nationalists, and the broader historical context of racism and white Christian nationalism in the US. The discussion unravels the willful ignorance around American racism, the weaponization of Christian institutions for racist ends, and the theological reasons why Christians must confront these issues directly—using current headlines, historical analysis, and personal experience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why This Incident Matters

Introduction and Context ([02:07]–[03:44])
- Tim and Dr. Jamar Tisby explain their history, Jamar’s work (author, historian, justice-focused educator on Substack), and shared opposition to white Christian nationalism.
- Tim credits Jamar's book, The Color of Compromise, as pivotal in rethinking American race history and the church's complicity.
- Shared personal moments: Philadelphia cheesesteak memories as a metaphor for real connection across division ([05:19]).

2. The Cinnabon Incident: From Hate to Profit

The Story ([08:04]–[09:52])
- A Cinnabon employee (Crystal Wiley) is filmed making racist slurs and gestures toward a Somalian couple.
- Cinnabon fires her. Right-wing commentators and Christian platforms rally to her defense, painting her as a victim.
Right-Wing Denial and Deflection ([09:52]–[15:48])
- Notable Quote:
  "What Context would make a lady calling someone the N word acceptable or saying I'm a racist?" (Tim, [12:40])
- Jack Posobiec (right-wing influencer) refuses to believe "a viral video from the left," using "the left" as a boogeyman to discredit any evidence of racism.
- Dr. Tisby breaks down how labeling undesirable truth as "the left" or "fake news" is an effective tactic to avoid accountability.
Profiting from Racism: GiveSendGo Fundraising ([16:51]–[19:04])
- Crystal quickly raises nearly $150,000 on GiveSendGo (a Christian fundraising platform), supported by clearly racist and xenophobic donor comments.
- Notable Quote:
  "No white person should lose their job for refusing to be harassed by Somalians." – GiveSendGo campaign description ([17:00])
- Analysis of the coded language: Supporters equate "true American" with whiteness and cast Somali immigrants as "invaders."

3. Christian Nationalism, Race, and Historical Backdrop

Why Do Christian Platforms Enable This? ([21:13]–[22:42])
- Tim laments: "Why is it always the Christian organizations that promote the most vilest you can imagine when it's so evident how antichrist these kinds of things are…?"
- Dr. Tisby traces this back to the "Doctrine of Discovery"—Christian colonization justified exploitation as God’s will.
How Racism Became a Christian & Political Tool ([26:24]–[38:40])
- Deep dive into the ways American Christianity intertwined with white supremacy—from the 15th-century doctrine of discovery to the Cold War's "anti-Communist/Christian" crusade to opposing civil rights as a religious freedom issue.
- Memorable Analogy:
  "Captain America" as the white Christian archetype—the myth that America is for and by white Christians.
- The Bob Jones University incident: refusal to allow interracial dating, tax-exempt status fight, and how race, not abortion, catalyzed the political religious right.

4. Race, Christian Nationalism, and Today’s Crises

The Reluctance to Deal with Race Directly ([38:40]–[42:00])
- Dr. Tisby insists on naming it "white Christian nationalism"—injustice and anti-Black racism are at the root of virtually all major justice issues today.
- The Black Lives Matter movement and historic Black voices warned about systemic brutality—white America only noticed when it affected them.
- Notable Quote:
  "A failure to deal with anti black racism is how you get a Cinnabon worker ranting to somebody who just wanted a snack. ... It may start with black people, but it will ripple out to others." (Tisby, [42:24])
The Hidden World of Evangelical Power ([42:24]–[46:51])
- Tim explains to non-evangelical listeners that a vast, well-funded evangelical network animates this ideology, which outsiders often miss.
- Some of Trump’s inner circle reportedly believe (and act on) spiritual warfare and dominionist theology in the literal halls of political power.

5. Trump’s Rhetoric and Its Impact

Trump’s Open Racism and Dehumanization ([49:54]–[54:52])
- Montage of Trump calling Somalians and Rep. Ilhan Omar "garbage" and voicing support for mass deportations—repeatedly met with applause from Christian men.
- Notable Quote:
  "It is now normal for the President of the United States to call a Congressperson by name 'garbage.' ... The Overton window has shifted" (Tisby, [53:35])
- Comparison to prior outrage when Biden called out “maga extremists,” highlighting the hypocrisy and shifting standards.
The Cinnabon Employee’s Backstory and the Double Standard ([56:54])
- Revelation that Crystal has charges for child endangerment and drugs—yet is still lauded as a hero by supposed “pro-family” right-wingers.

6. Why Call It “Christian Nationalism”?

Academic/Practical Reasons for Keeping the Term ([57:57]–[63:02])
- It’s a recognized field of study with extensive data and research.
- Christians must respond with a counter-narrative, not just write off the movement as "not real Christianity."
- "If you want to say you're a Christian, okay, here's the standard. ... You are not meeting it."
The Long Christian Legacy of Oppression
- Since Constantine, violence and empire-builders have coexisted within Christianity—it must be acknowledged and confronted.

7. Anti-Blackness as America's Cornerstone

Why Anti-Black Racism is Central ([64:05]–[69:44])
- Trump’s rhetoric about African nations reveals continued valuation of whiteness, ignorance of colonial exploitation.
- Historical Note: Anti-Blackness was deeply entwined with America’s economic system (slavery, labor exploitation), making its legacy especially persistent and harmful.
- Notable Quote:
  "So much of anti blackness was caught up in economic labor exploitation. It was a money maker, the biggest." (Tisby, [68:27])

Notable Quotes

On Willful Ignorance:
“We’re at the point where I’m like, yeah it’s ignorance, but that’s almost too passive. This is a willful ignorance.” – Dr. Jamar Tisby ([06:46])
On Labeling and Deflection:
“It’s really convenient to say ‘the left.’ Any time something surfaces that you don’t agree with…” – Dr. Jamar Tisby ([11:00])
On Christian Fundraising for Racism:
“No white person should lose their job for refusing to be harassed by Somalians.” – GiveSendGo campaign description ([17:01])
On the Role of Christianity in Racism:
“This goes back, you know, centuries, this combination of commerce and Christianity and also race.” – Dr. Jamar Tisby ([22:42])
On Trump’s Dehumanization:
“It is now normal for the President of the United States to call a congressperson by name ‘garbage.’ And that isn’t even the worst of what he did.” – Dr. Jamar Tisby ([53:35])
On Why Christians Can't Dismiss Christian Nationalists as 'Not Real Christians':
“The salient question is, what responsibility do other Christians have to form a counter narrative to white Christian nationalism?” – Dr. Jamar Tisby ([59:01])
On Anti-Blackness:
“So much of anti blackness was caught up in economic labor exploitation. It was a money maker, the biggest.” – Dr. Jamar Tisby ([68:27])

Important Timestamps

[02:07] – Tim’s intro; Jamar’s background
[08:04] – Introducing the Cinnabon racist incident
[09:52] – Right-wing social media response (Jack Posobiec)
[16:51] – GiveSendGo fundraiser details and donor comments
[21:13] – Why Christian orgs enable racism; doctrine of discovery
[26:24] – Historical roots (segregation, Bob Jones U, Cold War)
[38:40] – White Christian Nationalism defined and why race is central
[42:00] – BLM, ignoring Black voices, and systemic trickle-down
[49:54] – Trump’s dehumanizing anti-Somali remarks (audio montage)
[56:54] – Cinnabon employee’s rap sheet; hypocrisy in right-wing backing
[57:57] – Why “Christian nationalism” as a label matters
[64:05] – Economics of anti-Black racism and the enduring legacy

Lighthearted and Weird Christian Moments

FIFA “Peace Prize” for Trump ([72:56]–[81:57]):
- FIFA invents and awards a peace prize to Donald Trump for supposed peacemaking, despite ongoing U.S. military aggression and Trump’s actual foreign policy.
- Trophy and ceremony come off as absurd and sycophantic—hosts and guest lampoon the segment’s hypocrisy.
"Weird Christian Sh*t" Clip: "Jesus Was the Greatest ICE Commander" ([83:20]–[87:30]):
- Viral video of a pastor claiming Jesus exemplifies an ICE enforcement officer, using Revelation as justification.
- Jamar and Tim incredulous: “At first I thought he was talking to AI Jesus in that graphic…” ([86:00])

Conclusion

Why This Matters
- The episode demonstrates how white Christian nationalism is not just a fringe belief but a well-funded, deeply rooted ideology shaping American society, policies, and even attempts to rewrite reality itself (as seen in the Cinnabon incident and FIFA Peace Prize).
- Tim and Jamar consistently call listeners—Christian or not—to face the ugly roots of American racism, the Christian church’s complicity, and the urgent need for truth-telling and counter-narratives rooted in love, justice, and the actual teachings of Jesus.
Final Call to Action
- Support independent, justice-focused Christian media.
- Educate yourself ("Unsettling Truths," "The Color of Compromise," "The Bible Told Them So," "Bad Faith").
- Reject the normalization of hate and willful historical blindness, especially inside Christian spaces.

Follow Dr. Jamar Tisby:
JamarTisby.Substack.com | Podcast: The Justice Briefing

Support The New Evangelicals:
newevangelicals.com/support — $5/month makes an impact

Summary compiled for listeners and non-listeners alike. Key moments, context, and quotes included for maximum accessibility.

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Transcript

Walgreens Employee (0:00)

Welcome to Walgreens. What can I help you with today?

Tim Whitaker (0:03)

Hi, I need a last minute gift.

Dr. Jamar Tisby (0:04)

For a secret Santa.

Tim Whitaker (0:05)

Something thoughtful, impressive.

Dr. Jamar Tisby (0:07)

Not a fruitcake.

Walgreens Employee (0:08)

We've got Ferrero chocolates, artisan coffees, even a spa kit. Any vibe you're going for?

Tim Whitaker (0:13)

Whatever says wow, this guy's great at giving gifts.

Walgreens Employee (0:16)

How about this premium skincare gift set? Just needs a bow. Will look like you planned it weeks ago.

Tim Whitaker (0:22)

Well, happy holidays.

Dr. Jamar Tisby (0:24)

Gifts, holiday decor and more. The holiday road is long.

Tim Whitaker (0:27)

We're with you all the way.

Dr. Jamar Tisby (0:28)

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Tim Whitaker (0:47)

Get your mother lovin ears on because your big time radio DJs got news. PayPal lets you choose how you want to pay for all the stuff with PayPal, I can pay in store, pay online or pay overtime.

Caller/Guest Commentator (1:00)

What's that?

Tim Whitaker (1:01)

You want this translated into song? I hope you're sitting down. You can pay your own way. You keep those ears on, you hear. Don't just pay, baby. PayPal.

Walgreens Employee (1:13)

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Dr. Jamar Tisby (26:24)

I want to. I want to. Let's talk a little bit about the history here. So you talked about why is it always that the Christians are doing the most racist, vile things like this? A givesendgo platform. There's a history to that. So I encourage everyone to go out and get the book Unsettling Truths. Unsettling Truths by Mark Charles and Seung Chan Ra. And they go back to the doctrine of discovery and the papal bulls and letters like Dum Diversus. And this is in the 15th century. So, Tim, you were talking about, like, how we both, because I grew up in these white evangelical circles somewhat too, we were taught to. To the world, share the gospel, evangelize. Well, that's part of what the doctrine of discovery was about, but it's only part of it. So the real focus, this was during the age of colonization and imperialism. So what the Pope was saying to these people, these explorers going out on ships, is go out into all the world, find the people there, and if they're not Christian, if they're pagan, convert them to Christianity, and God is blessing your effort. Oh, and by the way, make sure you take their land, kill them if they resist, and extract all of their resources and exploit their labor in the process. And even as you do all that, as long as you're sharing the gospel, right, you're doing God's will, right? So the root determines the fruit. So this goes back, you know, centuries, this combination of commerce and Christianity and also race. Because when they were going out from Europe to these different points in the world, they're encountering people who are darker skinned than them, and they attributed value based on skin color. But if you don't want to go back that far, you don't have to. You can go back to the 1940s and 50s. There is a very helpful, I think, new wave among historians of American evangelicalism that says, you know, it's. It's not necessarily rooted in these revivals of the 18th century and early 19th century. There's. There's some antecedents there, but what we're really looking at when we talk about us Evangelicalism is a phenomenon of the 1940s and 50s Cold War era. So much of this came about as part of the broader anti communist effort. So the United States wanted to position itself after World War II, not only as a global superpower, but as the champion of freedom and democracy around the world against erstwhile ally the Soviet Union, which was spreading communism throughout the world. Right. So it wasn't just a battle between political systems, communism and democracy. It was also a value, a battle between religious systems, Christian democracy, Godless Communism is the way they set it up. And it was a battle that took on mythological proportions where it gets mixed up in this race thing. Because communists, people in the Communist Party, because they were looking at the world in terms of class divisions and the poor versus the rich, they lumped all the poor together. And so they actually made space for black people in Communist Party groups in the United States. And so there was this interaction between black people in the early and mid 20th century and on into the civil rights movement and communists, not necessarily because black people all agree on this system of government, but because these were white people who would actually listen to them, who would actually work with them, because they saw it in terms. Now there were blind spots there, too. I'm not saying that these white Communist Party folks got it all right, but in looking at it through a class lens, they were less inclined to exclude because of race. All that to say in this anti communist Cold War effort. They started lumping in civil rights activism with communism. And we just saw. This is a news story that's recent. A group of neo Nazis marched in Little Rock, Arkansas, right outside of Central High School, which saw National Guard troops deployed there in 1957 when they desegregated the Little Rock Nine. People will know. And they held up a sign that said, race mixing is communism. Now, they did this. This is this week, and they were. There's a photo of them holding up that sign that race mixing is communism. That is a throwback.

Tim Whitaker (31:51)

I'm trying to see if I can find the picture off the top of my head. I can't right now, but I'll look for it later. But you're right, because I. That line I remember seeing in black on my photos from back in the day, you know, and so to hear that same sentiment echoed again, you always say, Jamar, that history doesn't repeat Itself, but it often rhymes, right? And like it's just, it's the same ideology just rebranded in 2025America. You know, it's the same thing. But that is really helpful to learn about the like kind of how this communism is godlessness and, you know, America or capitalism and democracy is godly, how that kind of formed and how that, how that impacted race relations in America. Another book that also I think is really helpful for people because I. Unsettling truths. It's so good I have that book I've interviewed, Mark Charles, is also the book the Bible Told Them so by J. Russell Hawkins that really goes into how Southern evangelicals really were so adamant how their faith demanded the races stay segregated and how if, if for the government to mandate integration was essentially to violate the religious liberties or the religious freedom. Sound familiar? And it is interesting. I mean, I mean people, most people don't know that. Bob Jones University, for example, Right. They were, they were. That was kind of a, a pivotal moment for what would become the, the modern evangelical movement. Right? Because Bob Jones University, for. Especially for folks on Substack who really have no awareness. Right. Of this world that is animating so much of what we see today. Bob Jones University is a very conservative Christian fundamentalist college. Bob Jones himself was a raging racist. He wrote a sermon, I actually have it archived, called the Bible and Segregation. And he essentially argues that the only true biblical position to have is that the races are to stay separate. And he says all the classic things, I'm not a racist. I'm just saying what the Bible clearly teaches. It's better for. For he's the word Negro, but, you know, it's better for the black person to be in their own world. That's how the Bible created things. Don't listen to the liberal Christians who don't take the Bible seriously on this topic. I mean, that's how adamant he was. Well, Bob Jones University in the age of integration, refused to allow interracial dating on their campus. They eventually allowed one or two black people to be admitted, but they would not allow interracial dating. And the IRS said to them, hey, you have to allow interracial dating or else we're going to revoke your tax exempt status. And Bob Jones University says up, that's a violation of our religious conviction or our religious freedom. They sue the IRS up to the Supreme Court. They lose the case. Jerry Falwell, who it becomes later on, the architect of the Moral Majority, sees what's going on both in public schools with the government forcing integration Quote, unquote, and sees what happens to Bob Jones. That's what gets him politicized, to get involved in politics. And that builds the foundation for the modern Moral Majority movement. Side note, Bob Jones University did not take away their interracial dating ban until the year 2000, folks. Until the year 2000. This is the world that the right wing MAGA movement is built on. The Bob Jones's of the world are all in on MAGA and they're shaping American policy. Now you're the historian, Jamar, you can fact check me. Did I miss anything in that story?

Dr. Jamar Tisby (35:21)

You got it. So a lot of this history is coming from the historian Randall Ballmer. It started out as an article in the Nation, but then he made a whole book out of it. It's very short and readable book called Bad Faith. And I encourage folks who want to know more about it to read that book, Bad Faith. But essentially he's arguing that it wasn't abortion and opposition to Roe v. Wade that coalesced the religious right. It was actually desegregation and the threat of losing tax exempt status. Because the way they were interpreting it, the right wing Christians was, well, if they're coming for schools like Bob Jones University, eventually they'll come for churches too. Because if we don't allow desegregation, they'll take away our Texas hemp status too. So again, here comes the money issue involved in race and politics. Right? So that's a critical intervention here because for so long what has characterized the single issue voting of religious right wing people is abortion and opposition to Roe v. Wade and now overturning it. But really what Ballmer is arguing is that what actually brought together the political coalition, the catalyst was opposition to desegregation. And eventually you add abortion and opposition to Roe v. Wade and other issues. But the thing that really mobilized them into a political block was race. Which I think is the bigger point here. My tension that I feel among folks who I would call simply pro democracy at this point, right like we are, we are dealing with a significant and powerful faction of the United States from the politicians down to the voters who really don't see a democracy as we've all grown up understanding it as very useful. And so I'm speaking about all the people who are against that view and who want to see democracy in some way, shape or form. I'm very vexed. It gets to the age old problem in the United States where we will not deal with race head on. The manifestations of it are small and big. A small but I think important manifestation is we want to call it Christian nationalism. I have always insisted we call it white Christian nationalism. Now people will object. Well, what about black people or people of color who are parroting the same points? There have always been people among oppressed groups who carry water for the oppressor as a way to gain advantage, or they're true believers and are honestly ignorant about the dynamics there. That does not fundamentally change the white supremacist ideology embedded in white Christian nationalism. So I just say the white part out loud.

Tim Whitaker (42:27)

No, man, I. Look, there's. There's a reason why when April said she, I had to find a co host, I was like, oh, my first call was to you. Because I love talking to you. I love the wisdom you bring. And frankly, we need truth tellers. Like I, I'm such a believer more than ever that in the age of propaganda that is intentionally designed to muddy truth, we need clear eyed thinkers to be very clear and to say things plainly so people really get it, you know, And I think, look, I mean, you know so much more about this than I do, but from the little I've read and have I've been meditating on these ideas, I completely agree. You know, it seems like, like, like, like the, the root of anti blackness in America is we're foundation for the tree and the leaves and the branches and everything else that we're seeing today. Right. It all comes back to that. I mean, frankly, it feels like, and forgive me for putting it crassly, but like black people are like the first wave or line of like what's coming. Right. When it happens to that community first, that's a sign of what's coming down the pike for everyone else. And I do think you're right that, and this is a really fair critique, I think, and it even goes for me and for April. We talked about this, but you know, it wasn't until I saw a Christian flag being paraded around the Capitol building where I was like, whoa, right. It wasn't until I read your book until I saw the murder of Ahmaud Arbery, where I was like, whoa, right? It wasn't until, like, I saw Trump being prayed around in my circles where I was like, whoa, something's wrong. And I think, you know, to a degree, part of that is you don't see something until it happens to you. I think that that's like a human thing. But also in our context, it's also a sign of how little the white evangelical church listens to black Christian voices in particular. Right? I mean, look, this is kind of insider baseball. And for folks on subsect, by the way, I know some of this might be like, what are you guys talking about? You have to understand that part of my passion as an individual and also Jamar's, is that we feel the need to help you understand the theology and the Christianity that is animating the Trump regime. Because too many, and I mean this with all due respect to these people, too many secular progressive pundits and media talking heads do not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear the theological side of all of this. Right? And that's understandable because the white evangelical infrastructure, it's like America's biggest cult that no one knows about. And I say that as someone who just sort of substack post calling it that as a former white evangelical. Okay? But really, there is a world beneath the surface of American culture that operates, that is well funded, that has billions of dollars in networking and organizing skills that has been there for, for a long time, building coalitions and networks to shape public policy in ways that you just don't understand. Because these people believe that God has given them a God given right to rule over the country. And I know for folks who did not grow up in this world, it feels almost, almost like Alex Jones level conspiratorial like. Tim, take the tinfoil hat off. No, I'm telling you, this is real, Jamar. I just did a thread today and then we're going to move on and get back to our stories. But while I'm on my soapbox, I did a post today where I said, if I told you that there's a group of people who believe that they have supernatural power to go to physical locations in the world to release it from demonic strongholds and that they believe that they are taking territory for the kingdom of God by praying in those specific regions, and if I told you that one of those people has their own White House office right now and brings people to the White House to declare that the White House is God's territory, not Satan's, and that they believe they're really anointed to change things in the spirit realm. You probably wouldn't believe me, but it's 100% true. That is what's happening right now. Look up Paula White. Look up Landon shot. Look up Chaon. Look up Sean Foy. This is what they believe in. They're in the White House. So this is why for especially for the subset community, because I know we're a little bit newer to sub sac a different kind of audience. This is why we do the Tim and April show, because we want to cover what's happening current event wise, but we want to give you the Christian nationalist side of it. Because if you don't understand that, you're never going to be able to fully combat. Not fascism, Christian fascism, because that's what we're currently experiencing. Okay, I'll stop ranting.

Tim Whitaker (60:55)

100%. And if I could add to that on the white evangelical side. Right. Because one of the problems of white evangelicalism is this supremacy mindset that they have the true faith. And what happens when you deconstruct that is you go from one extreme to the other where I had the true faith and now, well, they're not true Christians at all. And that's just actually not the case. The American. Sorry. The Christian world has always had a streak in it, since Constantine, of violence and empire building. Okay. It is a particular stream of Christian thinking. Now, of course, there's always been counter streams and narratives to that kind of Christianity, but this is part of the Christian house, so to speak, that we have to be able to deal with. And I think what happens when we say they're not true Christians, we do two things. One, we're playing the game of no true Scotsman, Right? We're playing the game of. Well, my. On some imaginary authority. I'm telling you that you're not really one of us when in reality they are in the house. But number two, I think what it does is too, is that it absolves Christians, especially white Christians, from having to actually combat it on their own turf as Christianity. Right. And so I think it's really important that we are truth tellers. And like you said, they are Christians. They might be Antichrist and what they advocate for, but make no mistake, they are participating in a long lineage. As you pointed out with the book Unsettling Truths of Colonization and Empire Building and domination and control, does it run counter narrative to the teachings of Christ? Of course. That's why if you ever listen to a Christian nationalist preach, like even Charlie Kirk before he was killed, or you listen to Ali Stuckey or Doug Wilson, they rarely if ever quote the words of Jesus because you can't. You can't read the Sermon on the Mount and come away with building more crosses for your enemies. It's an impossible task. Right, so they appeal to obscure verses in the Hebrew Bible. Maybe, maybe they'll appeal to something that Paul said about Romans 13 in the government. But they rarely quote the words of Jesus. So I agree. You know, we have to be able to hold them to the standard of no, you are a Christian, which is why I'm going to fight you on this tooth.

Dr. Jamar Tisby (66:36)

What's their dramatic investment? Reinvestment in rebuilding Europe. Post World War II, there were monies funneled into these countries to make them whole again after being a battleground in the largest world war in history. So that never happened in Somalia or African countries. And again, what sort of. The tie that binds all these different stories together is not just. It's white supremacy. Right. Writ large. But it's not just racism. It's anti black racism. And if there's one thing I would encourage listeners to wrestle with, it's that it's the way this so often and so directly ties to anti blackness and anti black racism. Now you'll say, well, what about other groups? Certainly Native Americans were exploited and oppressed in egregious ways. As we look at immigration, so much of the worst history of immigration has been anti Asian as well. Here's the thing that I think makes anti blackness a particular sticking point. One is the refusal to sort of just deal with it head on. But two is it was so entangled in the economic system of the United States. So Alexander Stevens, who was the vice president of the Confederacy, people don't often think about the fact that they formed an entirely new nation and government. Right. It wasn't just Confederates Against Union, it was the Confederate States of America that had its own Constitution and had its Own president and Vice President Jeff Davis was the president. Alexander Stevens was the vice president. Stevens gave a speech called the Cornerstone Speech, colloquially. In it, he talked about slavery being the cornerstone of the Confederacy. And in some of the articles of secession, like from South Carolina, Mississippi, Virginia, they talked about slavery being the greatest material interest in the world. So if you ask why I say so much of this goes back to anti black racism. It's because so much of anti blackness was caught up in economic labor exploitation. It was a money maker, the biggest. And south and north were implicated because where do you think they shipped the cotton to go overseas? They shipped it north to get refined a little and then overseas to Europe to get made into actual fabrics and clothing. So everybody was implicated. And I think it's because of that economic factor that it was so tied up with so much wealth that anti blackness has such a stranglehold historically and in the present day.