← The Tim & April Show
The Tim & April Show
74. Inside the NAR: The Christian Zealots Behind the Trump Administration
01:16:22
Loading summary
Transcript192 lines
- [00:00]
A
You're listening to a new evangelicals production.
- [00:07]
B
This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog, a service that delivers gently cooked, freshly made pet food straight to your door. Each balanced recipe is developed by board certified nutritionists and clinically proven to support healthy aging. The farmer's dog, guided by science, driven by love.
- [00:26]
A
New customer.
- [00:27]
B
Get 50% off your first box at the farmersdog.com Spotify plus you get free shipping. Meet the computer you can talk to with Copilot on Windows. Working, creating and collaborating is as easy as talking. Got writer's block? Share your screen with copilot vision to help spark inspiration and use Copilot voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or maybe you need some tech help with copilot vision. Copilot sees what you see. Let copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try now@windows.com copilot.
- [01:11]
A
The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [01:20]
C
Hello, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am Tim Whitaker.
- [01:24]
A
I'm April Joy.
- [01:26]
C
April, we can't pretend that we're happy. We were just talking about how. How sad we are before we started recording. I can't do it. I can't play a character. I cannot do it on camera. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
- [01:37]
A
You know, sad people can smile too.
- [01:40]
C
Yeah. Yeah, we're smiling. I don't know. It's been a long year for all of us. You know, I'm sure it's the holiday, which I. I do love holiday time. It's one of my. One of my. Of my favorite times of the year. It's just been, you know, it's intense, man. This is intense.
- [01:53]
A
And this. This episode won't air till after Christmas and we're recording this before Christmas, so.
- [02:00]
C
Yeah. And. But it will come out before New Year.
- [02:03]
A
Yes.
- [02:04]
C
Happy new year.
- [02:05]
A
Happy new Year, everybody. Knock on wood. That it will be happy.
- [02:09]
C
Yeah. Yes.
- [02:10]
D
For.
- [02:11]
C
I mean, it's been. Wow, this is the last show then that we do before the new year. Yeah. It's been one hell of a year. I don't think we need to recap all of it because we do it every. Every week. But wow.
- [02:20]
A
A lot.
- [02:20]
C
It's been a doozy. But you know what? We're here. We made it through. We made it through.
- [02:24]
A
So we did.
- [02:25]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [02:26]
A
We made it through.
- [02:28]
C
Yeah. Yeah. I have thoughts on that. But maybe for a different episode today, Friends, what April and I want to do is we want to Talk about the new Apostolic Reformation. And that might mean something to you, or it might mean absolutely nothing.
- [02:45]
A
Some people also will say in Arizona, yeah, the nar.
- [02:49]
C
And it's. I, I think it's really important that people know the nar, because I don't know, April, I would argue that they are the people. They are the Christians that are probably most close to Trump right now when it comes to political power. Like, it's not your more reform types. It's not your Doug Wilson's necessarily. I think it's your new Apostolic Reformation types that are, you know, really kind of controlling a lot of what Trump is and isn't doing. So I want to kind of break this down, give a few examples of what these folks actually believe and give you the eyes to see, so to speak, because a lot of secular progressives do not understand the theology that is behind so much of what's happening today. So I think this episode, we should do a deep dive on them. We'll share a few clips of what they actually believe. Buckle up. It's kind of wild, but it's real. And I think that's the first thing we have to say, is that this is not a grift for a lot of these people. This is a real deep seated belief system that they really take on as like a true thing about reality. Is that fair to say, April, because you grew up in more charismatic NAR spaces?
- [03:54]
A
I was going to say this is more my people. This is. This theology is how I grew up. I was not in AR, because, I mean, NAR, I think, came out later than when I was a kid. But this belief system like NAR is kind of like a club in a. In a sense, like, it's more of a. There's certain people that are in it. But the theology in NAR goes beyond just nar.
- [04:17]
C
Yeah. So here's how I would break it down. Let's just start real big picture, right? We have the term Christian. It's a big, massive term. So I always use the analogy of a house. You think about Christianity like a humongous house. And then inside of that house, there are three major wings, right? You have the Eastern Orthodox tradition, the Catholic tradition, then you have the priesthood, Protestant tradition. All right, so we're talking about the wing of Christianity that is the Protestant wing. And inside of that wing, we have a whole level of evangelicalism, kind of what a lot of us grew up in. Now, this is where it gets a little nuanced. So stick with me because I think it's important to be able to give you the mental picture of exactly what we're talking about. Because not every Christian is nar, and that's really important to recognize. Inside of the modern, even conservative evangelical tradition, you have a lot of different factions. You have your, what's called cessationists. These are people that believe that gifts of the Holy Spirit, more charismatic gifts like speaking in tongues, physical healing, are not for today. They have stopped happening. People who believe this would be like John MacArthur before he died, the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest evangelical conglomerate in America. They would not believe that the gifts of the Spirit, so to speak, are for today. So that's, that's one wing. And then you have the more charismatic slash Pentecostal side that says, actually we believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still relevant and happening today. Okay? We believe that physical healing miraculously still takes place. We believe that speaking in tongues is still a thing, prophecy is still a thing. Inside of the, even of the charismatic Pentecostal side, you have the denominational side of it. So this is like your Assemblies of God. It's a denomination. There's, in theory, there are different levels of accountability. There is, you know, different systems set up. They don't always work. In fact, actually right now the AG is going through a pretty big scandal themselves. But there's a denominational structure to becoming a church in the Assemblies of God that's called a denominational charismatic church. Then you have a different world called the independent Charismatic world. These are churches that are not part of any denomination. And yeah, non denom is the big tent, right? And you have your, your more cessationists and your charismatics here. So in the charismatic side, Matthew Taylor calls them independent Charismatics. And they essentially operate however they want to operate, church to church. Okay? So I give you this, like this almost Russian doll situation of just starting big and getting smaller and smaller to, to, to tell you that we are talking about a bubble inside of the independent charismatic world, and that's called the new Apostolic Reformation, okay? And that's really important to get because this is not like the world's biggest Christian tradition by any stretch of the imagination. However, it is one of the fastest growing parts of American Christianity and it is, I would argue, maybe one of the most dangerous because of what they believe and how they believe it. So I think that's a, a good overview of what we're talking about. The NAR is inside of the independent charismatic world, which lives inside of the evangelical tradition in America primarily, and that's being exported everywhere, is That a fair summarization, you would say, so far?
- [07:39]
A
I think so. Okay. And I think another reason why they're more dangerous, if that's the right word, is the power and the closeness they currently have to Donald Trump.
- [07:52]
C
Right. So the new Apostolic Reformation, it's this idea, first off. It's not. It's not an officially organized thing. It's not a denomination. It's a very much a networking of different connections, different pastors and what they believe. The person who is the architect of the nar, his name is Peter Wagner. He comes along in the 90s and he starts this idea where essentially he says, hey, in the Bible, we had the first apostolic age. We had the initial apostles who were commissioned by Jesus directly to plant churches and, and preach the Great Commission. He argues that we are now in a second apostolic age where there are new apostles and new prophets being raised up to change the church. And he even says himself that this is one of the most radically different ways of seeing church since the Protestant Reformation. So he even acknowledges this is not a commonly held idea. He pretty much invented this narrative. Okay. And so this idea at first starts off kind of small. It becomes kind of fringe. And one of the things that, that Peter preaches, and I actually have a clip of this is called the Dominion Mandate. And I want you to hear it from Peter's words about a minute and a half clip of how he thinks about the idea of preaching the Gospel or discipling nations. He has a very unique take on it. Check it out.
- [09:12]
E
Which brings us to the Dominion mandate. Now, first of all, I want to point out these two words, dominion and mandate. The word mandate, you've got to understand, mandate means an authoritative order or command. It doesn't mean a good idea. It doesn't mean a suggestion. It means an authoritative order. Dominion has to do with control. Dominion has to do with rulership. Dominion has to do with authority and subduing, and it relates to society. One of the last things that Eleanor danced to were the words, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. In other words, what it's talking about, what the values are in heaven, need to be made manifest here on Earth. Dominion means being the head and not the tail. Dominion means ruling as kings. It says in Revelation, chapter 1:6 that he has made us kings and priests. And check the rest of that verse. It says for dominion. So we are kings for dominion. Now, the Dominion mandate is another phrase for the Great Commission. And we're, most of us are more familiar with the Term Great Commission. But now we got to understand the Dominion Mandate is, is another way of saying the Great Commission. Because when Jesus sent his disciples out, he said he told them to go and make disciples of all nations. Now get that idea. Make disciples of what? All nations. It doesn't say in this point. It doesn't other places. Doesn't say at that scripture to make disciples of individuals out there. It says make disciples of whole nations. Those are whole groups of society. In other words, it's talking about transforming society. So what I want to do is I want to go to the Word.
- [10:58]
C
And I'll pause it there. That is really important to hear. It's about transforming society. This entire ideology of the NAR is built on dominion. It's built on taking power, taking control. Being the head, not the tail, essentially. This is a lot of the modern ideas of Christian nationalism, April, that you and I talk about all the time on the show. This is where the charismatic side of the Christian nationalist movement, so to speak, as we understand it today, starts to really take on its shape. Peter Wagner is the person who really makes the nar. This network of various apostles and prophets kind of popularized in charismatic spaces. And I think what is so interesting about this is that literally the only authority that they have is the authority that they give themselves and that they believe that they have because God has given them this authority. So a key belief in the nar. There's actually a few of them and a scholar. What's his name? Not Matthew Taylor. I have it here. His name is Gear Otto Homas. He summarizes the NAR in a couple different statements of what they believe. The kingdom of God is advanced on earth through the church gaining dominion. Apostles aided by prophets constitute the church's strategic spiritual leadership. The kingdom of God will come through spiritual transformation of culture and society. The end times church will be the complete manifestation of Jesus on earth. A strong focus on prophetic insight and supernatural manifestations. We'll get to that in a second. I want to unpack that. And a new revelation and casual use of the Bible. Meaning they really have a very lax interpretation of the Bible. I mean, even Peter said the Dominion Mandate is another way of saying the Great Commission. That is not true at all. The Dominion mandate is nowhere in the Bible. And we when Jesus said preach the gospel to people of all nations, he wasn't talking about entire countries because the way we think about nations today did not exist back then. But that's for a different conversation. The last thing I want to hit, and I'll Hand it back to you, April, for your thoughts. And again, you can tell me if you've experienced some of this in your tradition, how you grew up. And this is really important. The NAR believes that these apostles have supernatural anointings and giftings to lead the church into a new age of taking dominion. They also believe that they are in the middle of a massive spiritual battle against the forces of good and of evil, and that the forces of evil have taken strongholds in physical locations on Earth. Now, usually in America, these represent places where, like, there's a high Muslim population, like in Dearborn, Michigan, or at the abortion clinic or somewhere in D.C. where the swamp is. And these folks, and this is not an exaggeration, they really believe that those places are under demonic stress, under demonic attack, and that they have a spiritual gifting to go to those places and do what they call spiritual violence or spiritual warfare in the spirit to release that specific location of the demonic presence that is there. Okay. And so they're really big on traveling to different areas, even in the world to pray over these areas. And the last thing I'll say is that they also believe that if they can petition enough people to pray on behalf of their request to God, God will grant the request and change the course of history. So we're going to play a lot of clips soon about how they talked about Trump and the election. All of that has a spiritual belief that if they can mobilize their prayer networks to do warfare in the spirit, God will hear their prayer and then change the course of history based on their request. I know for some people listening, that might sound ridiculous. I get that. But this is very real for these folks, and they are very close to the Trump regime, as we're going to find out.
- [14:54]
A
Yes, I do. I mean, good. It's so weird hearing it said out loud like that, because it sounds so crazy.
- [15:05]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:05]
A
Now being on this side of it. But, I mean, I genuinely believed all of that, too. Like, I remember hearing about demonic strongholds. Like, certain areas had more demonic influence also. We were just demon happy in general.
- [15:20]
C
Yeah.
- [15:20]
A
Like, demons were constantly something you had to worry about on a daily basis because demons were. Were always trying to influence Christians. And if you weren't prayed up enough or read your Bible enough, you could be oppressed by a demon, which is different than being possessed by a demon. Do you know the difference?
- [15:40]
C
No, tell me. I'm so curious.
- [15:42]
A
This is very, like, charismatic Pentecostal 101. I love it. So Christians could not be possessed by demons like The Holy Spirit in us would not allow a demon to actually possess our bodies, so that that would, like, require an exorcism, where, like, a demon, you know, kind of takes over your body and can control you in some way. Sometime Christians could not be possessed. We could be oppressed, which meant demons, like, in the spiritual realm, you couldn't see them, but they could attach themselves to your body from the outside and influence you, like, whisper little sweet nothings. Which is why you had to always second guess every thought that you had, because you were thinking, like, was that from a demon or is that from God?
- [16:23]
C
Wow. Because that would be such a mind twist.
- [16:26]
A
It is. It really is. You don't realize how, like, heavy this mindset way of living is until you leave it behind. You're like, oh, my gosh, I can just think now, and I don't have to, like, hyper analyze every little thought that I have. It is an exhausting way to live as someone who is raised in this world.
- [16:45]
C
Yeah, no, I. I mean, I. I grew up in a more cessationist background, so it was more like conservative, reformed. And I found the more charismatic side of Christianity when I was, like, 17, 18, but. But I was never that deep in because I went to an Assemblies of God church, and they were pretty moderate on that. But after, like, you know, falling into this work and discovering Christian nationalism and then discovering the nar, I was like, wow. And by the way, we should mention that there is a lot of infighting here. So, like, apologists like Elisa Childers, who would be more cessationist, they would believe that the gifts of the spirit don't exist today. They take a lot of shots at the N, calling it heretical and bad theology. And frankly, I think there's. There's really a case to make because a lot of their beliefs are pretty new and pretty wild, you know, even from, like, a conservative Christian perspective. But. But they. They what? They used to be seen as fringe, but thanks to the rise of Trump, and there's a reason why this happened that we'll get into. They are now the ones who are really the cool kids on the block, you know, and their beliefs are shaping the Trump administration, like, directly. Directly.
- [17:48]
A
Isn't. Isn't Bill Johnson from Bethel? Are they part of narrative?
- [17:52]
C
Yeah. So this is kind of when we get into the weeds a little bit. And I'm kind of. I'm kind of pulling from Matthew Taylor. He wrote a great book on this called the Violent Take it by Force. It's. It's a book that is worth reading. I've had him on the New Evangelicals podcast multiple times. He's a good friend. He would argue that like Bill Johnson, who is from Bethel, he's like n adjacent but like, wouldn't be considered like, like deep in the network of NAR leaders. But he has people from the NAR speak at his church. Like Cheyenne, who is a major apostle in this space, will speak at Bill Johnson's church. So they're definitely all intermingled for sure.
- [18:24]
A
Using. Because like Bill Johnson and Bethel of Reading, California, they believe all of these same things.
- [18:31]
C
Yes.
- [18:32]
A
And there's a lot of people like my church and like the way I grew up would believe all of these same things without being a part of the specific group.
- [18:40]
C
Right. Because I mean, Bill Johnson, I'm looking it up. I think he wrote a book called the Seven Mountain Mandate or Dominion. What did he.
- [18:45]
A
There are definitely seven Mountain man, like Dominionists. Theology exists there.
- [18:49]
C
Yeah, we'll get into the Seven Mountain Mandate as well, because that's a key theology that develops in the early 2000s out of the NAR by someone named Lance Walnut. But before we do that, why don't we talk about this prophecy real quick because there's a lot of. This is really important too. Right. So we have the spiritual warfare piece. They believe that if they can pray in physical locations, they can release demonic strongholds. Which is why, by the way, a lot of them either watching the insurrection happen and praying, or we're even a part of the insurrection. But another big piece of this is prophecy. A lot of times in these spaces, the leaders on the stage, these pastors or apostles will start speaking on behalf of God. They'll say like, thus says the Lord, X, Y and Z. Thus says God. And then what they'll do is often they'll pull from like really obscure passages in the Bible. They'll rip them from their context, usually the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, and they will just start applying a passage to today, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with today. That being said, one of the big moments that shifted for people was when this. I don't know who Kim Clement is. April, maybe you can, you can shed light on that was when Kim Clement gave a couple prophecies about Trump over 17 years ago. And I'm gonna play that. I have it here. We pulled the clip. Who is Kim Clement? Do you know who he is?
- [20:14]
A
Yeah. So he was a South African born Christian prophet, musician and teacher. Now South Africa is a big player in all of this. Like they're connected with the NAR. They're also very connected with QAnon. There's some overlap. It's just weird how many from South Africa are involved in this. But anyway, he passed in 2016, so a lot of what he prophesied that they believe came to pass happened after he died. But honestly, I was not aware of who he was until people started talking about his Trump prophecy back in, like, 2016.
- [20:56]
C
Okay, that makes sense.
- [20:57]
A
So that's when I first heard about him. So this prophecy is what they cite a lot. And so in the prophecy came from 2007, where he talks about Donald Trump becoming president.
- [21:09]
C
Okay. I also want to mention that there's a. He's playing a keyboard here. Music, worship music in particular, is seen as a weapon of spiritual warfare in this space. So when they're singing songs for, for example, in the White House, it's not just about singing songs and praising God. To them, it symbolizes that they are taking territory for the kingdom. Battle, warfare. Battle imagery is key to this whole movement. Friends, also, if you're just. If you just tuned in, if you're watching the video and you like it, please make sure to give this video a like. It really helps us. Thank you. By the way, we just hit 11,000 subs on YouTube. That means the world. Glad that you're here. Okay, let's listen to this prophecy. It's kind of convoluted, but this is a great example of what happens, I would say, weekly in these types of.
- [21:52]
F
Churches and that I have raised up. Pray for the enemy will do everything in his power to put a witch.
- [21:59]
G
In the White House.
- [22:01]
F
For Jezebel has chased away the prophets and even Elijah. Now I have said, go back for this shall be dismantled so that there will be no more corruption in the White House, says the spirit. The trunk shall become a trumpet, says the Lord. No, you didn't hear me. Trump shall become a trumpet. Are you listening to me? I will raise up the trump to become a trumpet. It will be a praying president, not a religious one. But I will fool the people, says the Lord. I will fool the people. Yes, I will. God says, the one that is chosen shall go in. And they shall say, he has hot blood. For the spirit of God says, yes, he may have hot blood, but he will bring the walls of protection on this country in a greater way. And the economy of this country shall change rapidly, says the Lord of hosts, Listen to the word of the Lord. God says, I will put at your helm for two terms a president that will pray. But he will not be a praying president. When he starts, I will put him in office, and then I will baptize him with the Holy Spirit. And my power says, says the Lord of hosts.
- [23:21]
C
It cuts off there. Yeah. This was a montage of him saying the prophecy over different dates in, like, the 2006, 2007 range, which is why the audio changed. But that was what he said. And it's, It's. It was believed. It was really believed because, again, the people who see, who are in these spaces consuming it believe that, that this person is speaking on behalf of God. And look, look, I'll be transparent with you. As someone who was in more charismatic spaces, I would do this with my friends. I was part of a, A small group of people, and whenever we would, Whenever someone would leave the group, maybe, maybe, maybe like, move away, we would all lay hands on that person. We would all listen to the voice of God and we would prophesy over them. And I've done that. You know, like, just things that God is. I think God is telling me about this person. Now, usually they were positive, happy, good things, like, you know, you're a great human and we love you and God, you. They weren't about taking over the country or a man with hot blood, you know, to be clear. But, like, the idea I, I get, it's very convincing when you believe yourself that the, that the energy of God Almighty is channeling through you to give someone a word that you believe is prophetic. So this is very real for these folks.
- [24:33]
A
Well, yeah. And. And because Trump did become president and was. And one of his main talking points was building a wall, you know, and he said in that prophecy, we're gonna, you know, he's gonna protect the nation. They take all of that as proof that Trump is actually God's chosen. And Kim Clement is not the only person. I, I mean, the majority of people that I saw that were Trump prophets came out really, during his first term that, that I became aware of them, but because they were holding onto the, this prophecy so much that Trump would serve two terms. That's how you get the insurrection and them pushing the big lie that the 2020 election was stolen. And you had all these prophets back in 2020 that said Donald Trump is going to win, because God told me Donald Trump is going to win. Like, outside of Kim Clements.
- [25:30]
C
That's right.
- [25:30]
A
Prophecy.
- [25:31]
C
There was tons of them.
- [25:32]
A
And so, yeah, and it's. In this world. This is like, the whole prophecy thing is tricky because you can have people that get some things right. And then people will take what is right and use that as a blanket of, like, oh, well, this. He's always going to be right. Prophecies can always be believed. Never question what anybody says. But this, this whole world, like, I. There are so many cases where a pastor will get up and prophesy over someone in the audience and completely, like, ruin their life.
- [26:09]
C
Yes.
- [26:09]
A
You know, by saying, like, you're supposed to marry this person. And then they do because of that prophecy, and then the husband ends up being an abuser.
- [26:16]
C
I had someone tell me when I was younger that God told them we were going to get married. And I believed them, even though I couldn't see it. I had a literal panic attack being like, oh, my gosh, this is the person. Like, I don't. Especially when you combine it with, like, purity culture. Right. This idea of, like, just wait for the one. It's going to be amazing. You're going to be so in love. And I'm like, wait, this person told me that God said we're going to get married, but I don't see it. So I'm like, literally praying at times. I'm like, God, please give me eyes to see it. Now, thankfully, we didn't get married. But, like, yes, you're right. Because in. And you're right, April, what you said earlier, when you're out of it, it's so easy to see, but when you're in it, it's so convincing. Right. You really.
- [26:59]
A
Because you.
- [27:00]
C
You are in your. Your earnest, in your beliefs. Like, you believe this to be true. You believe. You believe that God still speaks today. You believe that you are channeling God, that your friends are channeling God, that the people in a spiritual authority are channeling God. And so when they speak, it's not just them giving an opinion. It is the God of heaven and earth that has spoken to you about your life. And so whatever that God says has to go, even if you don't like it.
- [27:26]
A
And can I say, too, you brought up music earlier?
- [27:28]
C
Yeah.
- [27:29]
A
Him using music while doing that prophecy is such a. Like, I remember if I was in a service and someone was playing music, because music is powerful in and of itself, regardless of what words are being said. And I remember they would tell us, like, those chills you're feeling. Because I get chills in music regardless. Like, if I'm, like, feeling a song, I feel chills. And I was always told, like, oh, those chills, that's God. And that just further emphasizes, like, oh, what he's saying is from God Yep. And so it's all like there's. And when you're in it too, you're not looking for reasons to not believe. You are looking for reasons to believe, right?
- [28:05]
C
Yes, exactly.
- [28:11]
B
Hey everyone, Melinda here. First and foremost, thank you so much for continuing to support TN E. 2025 was a heavy year, but you guys continue to show up and now we want to invite you to end the year strong with us. On Dec. At 7pm Eastern time, we're gonna be hosting a live old school telethon style fundraiser on YouTube. We'll have some special guests, some music, meaningful conversation and moments of reflection as we celebrate five years of tne. Thank you so much for being here and we will see you on December 30th at 7pm hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
- [28:47]
C
You know, one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is, is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [29:07]
A
Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com Foreign.
- [29:20]
C
Talk to me, April about the Jezebel spirit comment. Because the reality is that there is no Jezebel spirit in the Bible. There's a character of Jezebel, but there's no Jezebel spirit. And I think this is actually a good example of how they play fast and loose with the scriptures while insisting that they're standing on the word. But you grew up in this space. So what the hell is a Jezebel spirit? For real? Like, what actually is it and why is Ken citing it and his prophecy about Trump?
- [29:44]
A
Well, I didn't realize till way later that Jezebel spirit is not biblical because people said it all the time that it's like, oh yeah, there's a Jezebel spirit. They also say, like, there's an Ahab spirit. They, they literally just make stuff up.
- [29:57]
C
They do, they do, they do.
- [29:59]
A
But generally Jezebel's reserved to basically silence women. Like if a woman, in my opinion from growing up in this world, it was used a lot. If a woman was, was really pretty. If a woman was, had too much of an opinion, it was that, oh, she's been taken over by the Jezebel spirit because she doesn't know her place to just be quiet and submissive and meek and even in, like, egalitarian. It's weird because we were egalitarian, so we believe that women could also lead. But there was also a lot of talk of the Jezebel spirit. I mean, I've been called a Jezebel. So I really think that in my opinion, Jezebel is any woman who inconveniences the church patriarchy. That's my definition of it, of how they use it.
- [30:45]
C
Got it. Makes sense. So here's the thing, friends, right? You might be asking, well, why even talk about this? Like, what's the point? The only reason we are talking about this is not because we think that people can't have these beliefs. You can believe whatever you want, truly. You want to live in your church and have this belief about God, more power to you. The problem is that these people believe that they have a divine mandate to take over society and to be the head, not the tail. And that's where we get Trump. Now, a lot of people have asked the question, right, how did. How did Trump happen? How. How did this person come on the scene in 2015 with other Republican candidates who are much more qualified and presidential, and how did Trump win out? I would argue there are several reasons for that, but one of the big ones that goes under reported is one person's name, Paula White. Paula White is a mega church, prosperity gospel type of preacher. She's NAR adjacent. She believes in everything that we just talked about. And she was actually Trump's spiritual advisor for a long time before 2016. In fact, according to Matthew Taylor's book, Trump wanted to run in 2012. Paula advised against it. When Trump said he wanted to run in 2016, Paul the White brought a lot of her pastoral apostolic friends to a meeting at Trump Tower to get their buy in. They mobilized their prayer networks and their theology right along with that, with that Ken Clement prophecy saying, oh, this must be it. This is what God wants us to do to endorse Trump. And so this is really important to recognize. The nar, I would argue, had a massive hand in and shifting and shaping how a lot of evangelicals saw Trump because, and this is a bit of insider baseball, but stay with me. There are evangelical gatekeepers that were conservative, I would argue, almost like neocon type. One example is Russell Moore. Russell Moore is a conservative theologian who was also the president of the Ethics Committee for the Southern Baptist Convention, which was, again A massive denomination of cessationists, believers. So not charismatic. And he was one of the people that kind of spoke out against Trump right away, even though he was conservative. So a lot of the gatekeepers, like the rank and file were like, wait, we don't like Trump. It was the NAR and those people that mobilized their networks. I would argue, along with Jerry Falwell Jr. To really get Trump to get bought in by the evangelical crowd. Because think about it, right? If you're a pastor or if the traveling apostle who you think is specially anointed by God is at your church and starts prophesying in the spirit that God has anointed Trump to save our land and save our economy and to make America great again, you're going to believe it, especially given that you're already. You're already biased towards a conservative Republican worldview. So this is. This is a huge piece of the puzzle, right? This is how Trump was able to leverage these spaces because these prophets and apostles gave him the God anointing that then convinced their audiences. Okay, this is. Hey, dare. I dare not go against God's prophecy. I dare not go against God's will. I better get in line and, you know, and vote for this man. That's how it happens.
- [34:02]
A
And that's why you see them defend the indefensible.
- [34:06]
C
A hundred. And we're gonna. Oh, my God, I have so many good clips about this. Let me. Let me play this one first of Apollo White. So. So obviously, here's what happens, right? Friends, we know the story. Trump gets elected, 2016. And then 2020 comes around, and Trump is slated to lose the election. And all of a sudden there are people who are like, rigged election. The election was rigged. The election was rigged. And then you have people like Paula White who are declaring things in the spirit, saying, hey, this actually is not what you think. I'm not gonna play this whole clip, but this is Paula White. She's chanting things. I want you to hear what she chants, and then we'll talk about it. This is her again. This is. I think this is like November 2nd or 3rd. It's right before, I think, the voting. Or maybe it was after. I think it was. I digress. It was after Trump was slated to lose the election in between that November January inauguration.
- [34:59]
H
Strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike until you have victory for every enemy that is aligned against you. Let there be that we would strike the ground for you will give us victory. God, I hear A sound of abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of shouting and singing I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of an abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of an abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory the Lord says it is done the Lord says it is done the Lord says it is done For I hear victory, Victory, Victory, victory In the quarters of heaven in the quarters of heaven Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory, Victory. For angels are being released right now. Angels are being dispatched right now.
- [35:55]
C
Speaking in tongues.
- [35:59]
H
For angels have even dispatched from. From Africa right now. Africa right now. Africa right now.
- [36:04]
E
From.
- [36:04]
C
Okay, we'll pause it there.
- [36:05]
A
So she genuinely believes that she is summoning angels.
- [36:10]
C
That's right.
- [36:11]
A
And. And you're right. So this was. I think it was a day after the election, but remember, in 2020, it took like, five days for before they announced a winner, so they were still counting. So she's doing this chant during the count to try to summon angels to miraculously make the numbers be there for Trump.
- [36:29]
C
That's right. That's right. And again, this is real. It's not a grift. Like, they really believe that they have a spiritual anointing, a supernatural power to declare that angels in Africa are being sent over to America to support the person that God has anointed to save America. And this person, Paula White today, as of this recording, is the person in charge of the faith office in the White House. She has her own office, and she brings a lot of her NAR friends into the office, as we're going to show in a minute, to pray over people like RFK to declare that D.C. is territory for the kingdom. This is all part of the NAR ideology of spiritual warfare, dominionism, et cetera. I want to play. This is a longer one, but I think it's worth really kind of cementing how these folks think. This is Hank Kahneman, I believe is his last name, and he's a major player in, like, this, this space. And this is before the 2020 election. And he was prophesying, I'll let him say his things. It's. It's about four minutes long, but I think it's worth listening to. I think this will give you a good example of the kind of ideology and belief system that these folks hold. Again, this is before the 2020 election. Here we go.
- [37:48]
G
We have our polls, we have our prognosticators, we have our news, we have our media. And if you listen, Daniel would be dead today. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego would have been burned. Israel, the nation, would have been consumed at the hand of a pursuing enemy. Yet they forgot something, just like they're forgetting in this election.
- [38:18]
C
That's the connection right there. Has voted from Israel to America.
- [38:22]
A
God is voting.
- [38:23]
G
His intervention is greater than any poll, any prognostication, any. Are you listening? Any report on the news. His man, Donald J. Trump will stand again in this land, whether you like it or not. From the time that there were 16 other Republican, one of the candidates that were running alongside of him, God moved them all out of the way for one him. Think about the accusations that came against him regarding the porn, whatever she was, that never panned out. The Mueller report, Russia collusion, impeachment. Come on. People were writing the ministry saying, we're so afraid he's impeached. Oh, no, we're done. He's still standing. In every single case, God has shown last minute that he pulled the trump card of victory. Just wait. Let God show off. Let God show us that he is God. Let us stand in awe of him. And don't think for a moment that all the things that are being said right now is a signal that this guy Biden is going to be president and our nation is going backwards. God is allowing them to think that so he can strike hard and bring out the truth.
- [39:58]
C
Okay, we can pause there. I think that last clip really sums it up. Right. And this is what, April, you can tell me because you experienced more of it than I did, but it is unbelievable how these kinds of apostles and prophets and teachers convince their congregations to just ignore straight up facts and data and logic because you just don't trust God. They put those two things at odds with each other. Right. Joe Biden will never be president because God will show up. Just wait. And then if he doesn't, we'll just keep waiting. It's always that game of, like, if God doesn't answer our prayer, so to speak, he will eventually. But if he does answer our prayer, see how right we are. Like, either way, they win. Does that make sense? It's crazy.
- [40:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think there, there's such a. Is a narcissistic view of their belief system because when you're in this world, you believe that America is somehow like God's favorite. Like, you have, Israel is God's favorite. But then a very close second, and I think some people believe has overtaken. There are some people that believe America is the new Israel.
- [41:17]
C
Yeah.
- [41:18]
A
In the Bible. So. But you believe that God has a special calling and anointing on the United States of America specifically. And that's why God cares about one nation's election. Because I remember every election that I have, any memory of whoever was the Democrat nominee, good chance that they were the Antichrist, like the big bad Antichrist. And so there's all. Am I. Yeah, there's just a lot of conflating. And that's why when I say, like, Christian nationalism can be so hard to come out of and to stop is because it is such a conflation of both your theology and your politics. They've become one in the same. And so you can't have someone question like them, like going to someone who's in this world and being like, look how awful Donald Trump is. Look how racist, misogynistic, like he is actively harming so many people. How can you support that? They cannot see that because all they see is, well, God told me that Trump's supposed to be president, or I believe that God has his hand on Trump. And so they can just dismiss and defend and ignore straight up atrocities because it doesn't fit their narrative. And if they do question that, then not only are they questioning their political allegiance, but then suddenly they're questioning their entire belief system because they're so interconnected.
- [42:49]
C
Right. And don't forget, Hank in that video was like, whatever her name is, the porn person. That didn't pan out. Well, no, it absolutely did. We know for a fact that Trump did have an affair with that woman.
- [43:01]
A
Yeah.
- [43:02]
C
And did pay her off illegally and now also is a convicted felon. But that doesn't matter. In fact, I have a clip of that same Hank after Biden was sworn in, being asked, well, like, would you take back your prophecies? Now he's talking to all friends here. Lance Wall now is here Gene Bailey, the person on the far right. I'm not sure who he is, but they're all okay. Mario Murillo. Here's his. Listen to how Hank. Hank was obviously wrong. Right? I mean, clearly Joe Biden was President through 2020 through 2024. No answers or buts about that. What does Hank think, though? Is there any humility here? Is there any. Hey, I got something wrong. Let's listen.
- [43:37]
G
Dr. Hank, are you backing off? No, in fact, I'm not. And something that Lance just said, you know, regarding the misery. We cannot forget the pattern of how God operates. There was so much misery and bondage and crying out from a communist government. The Egyptians under Pharaoh against the nation of Israel and Exodus chapter two says. In fact, the actual reference I believe is verse 27 said that God heard their cry and he remembered his covenant. And I say that because God has remembered his covenant with America and he's going to remember his covenant with America and there is going to come an intervention of God regarding the fraudulent election, regarding the things that we've seen. So, no, I'm not conceding, but I did write something down, Pastor Gene, that I want to just make a couple references about that I think are important so that people understand why I am committing over the next few nights, weeks to continue to stand and put my face out there. First of all, God has not spoken to me to repent, to concede. And I'm asking that people afford me and others, other prophets, other believers, other pastors, intercessors that are standing right now to hear God's voice regarding it. And some of the demands for repentance that has happened I think we're going to find has been a little bit premature because we're basing everything on an inauguration date. Now, inauguration date may in fact be important and it's been consistent throughout history, but this has been a unlike anything that we've seen. We're talking about foreign interference that can be proven, that I believe will be proven. We're also talking about a fraudulent election. So it makes the whole inauguration thing not be consistent. So therefore, if some are feeling like they need to repent, feel free to do so. And I want to go on record. This prophetic vessel is not afraid to repent if they needed to or to make admit if they made a mistake. I have gone on record before when I've had to, you know, make things right of something that I said. So this is not a pride kick here. It's just I feel like we're putting so much emphasis on an inauguration date that the election has still some things that must be looked into, that will be looked into. And you can't tell me over hundred or thousands of prophetic voices, intercessors, believers, all missed it. In other words, I believe God is saying we need to wait and stand and take a position like David. Is there not a cause? And here's what I would say, come back and talk to me in four years. You say that's ridiculous. Well, four years you said President Trump would be reelected. He was. But come back and talk to me in four years. In other words, they thought Noah was a fool. Noah prophesied something that had never been done in the history of the earth. He said it would rain. And the stories, scoffers. The whole world was against him. You talk about a guy who the whole world was against. It was Noah. They scoffed him, they rejected him, they mocked him. But in the end they had prophetic blindness until God moved. And that's what's going to happen.
- [46:59]
C
That is real. That is real, friends.
- [47:03]
A
Well, I mean, and here's the thing. When they get prophecies wrong, they typically. And there were a couple that did repent and apologize.
- [47:12]
C
Jeremiah forgetting.
- [47:14]
A
Yeah, yeah, Jeremiah Johnson. There was someone else, but there were, there were a couple that apologized. But typically if a prophecy is wrong, they don't say, oh, I was wrong. They just move the goalposts. They say, oh, well, God just must, must have meant a different time or a different way. I just, I just interpreted it slight, slightly wrong. But God wasn't wrong.
- [47:36]
C
The level of self delusion is unreal. To hear him say it's the exact.
- [47:40]
A
Same thing as every rapture prediction. Totally every single rapture prediction. And we just went through another one this past September. The people who make these predictions, they don't come out and say they got it wrong. Well, they, they just say like, oh, they like, they never question, oh, maybe the rapture is just not real. Maybe I should question whether or not I'm actually hearing from God. Like what am I hearing from if not from God? They don't question those things. They just say, oh, God was just saying the rapture is coming. I just got, I just got the date wrong. You just move the goalposts.
- [48:12]
C
Exactly. I mean Hank is like, I'll repent if I need to, but just not right now because I don't need to. Because God told me I don't need to. Do not. And he even made a comment about, you know, do not judge like this prophetic vessel. Right. Making again. What, what did we tell you earlier, friends? This world believes that they are channeling the energy and mind of God through their bodies. Right. This is very real for them. And the reason we mentioned this is because these are the folks that are currently going to the White House consistently to pray over the President or to pray over RFK. There are churches that are being planted in D.C. that have windows aimed at the Supreme Court so they can, they can wage spiritual warfare on the Supreme Court to buy into loose it of any demonic stronghold. April, you and I, when we were in dc, we found a house. It was some, some Christian nationalist organization. They had the Ten Commandments aimed, literally aimed at the windows of the Supreme Court.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah. To try to pray and influence their decision.
- [49:15]
C
Right. Like, this is very, very real for.
- [49:19]
A
These folks, 100% when this all happened in 2020. Because Hank's not the only one that doubled down. Greg Locke also prophesied that Trump was going to win. And he went on a tirade of saying that he was right and that Trump did win. The Democrats just stole it. And I remember thinking back then, like, hold on. So Donald Trump actually did win and God had enough foresight to tell you that Donald Trump was going to win and be president, but God, all powerful God got outsmarted by the Democrats.
- [49:53]
C
Right? There is there, there's. It's just one of those things where it's like once you critically examine the claims and how they operate, it doesn't make sense. But then they say, that's okay because our ways are not God's ways. See, either way, friends, you are in their worldview somehow because. Yeah, good.
- [50:15]
A
Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
- [50:16]
C
No, you're fine.
- [50:16]
A
But as someone who comes from this world, has been very prophecy heavy in my life and was very much a big believer in the end times and the Rapture and the coming of the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation, there is a piece of me that sometimes almost believes these prophecies, but not in the way that they are reading the prophecy. Like, to me it's like, oh, no, Donald Trump fits more the Antichrist bill, like, almost to a T. And like, there's been a few moments I don't believe in the Rapture anymore because it's a new theology and we've talked about that. But there are pieces of me that every once in a while are like, that is so. Like, maybe it is happening. I know, like, get it, you know? And even in Kim Clement, that video we should said earlier, he was like, I'm gonna fool everyone. Like, he said something about God saying, I will fool them. I will fool them. And in my head, like, he's fooling, he's fooling them. Christians, like, they're convinced. I mean, I read that very differently. Like, I don't, I don't know. It's, it's, it is weird coming from this world and seeing, I don't know, it's. It's triggering in a weird way. But I would not take it in the way that they are taking it.
- [51:39]
D
Hello, this is Terry from Wasilla, Alaska. I started supporting TNE and Project Amplify as it gives me hope. I grew up attending a small evangelical church in Saskatchewan, a church that my relatives had founded in 1914. This was the 70s and aside from the kooky end times teaching about the Soviet Union, it was still a church of love. I married and moved to the US in the late 80s and became exposed to a very different church. I floundered and finally left for the Episcopalians in 2007. While I love the Episcopal Church, I grieve for the church in my youth. Finding Ti I can once again find fellowship with the church of my tradition and hope for the future. Thank you, Tini.
- [52:24]
A
Shopping is hard. I can never find anything in my size.
- [52:28]
C
I don't even know my size.
- [52:30]
A
I buy my clothes the same place I buy my groceries. There's a better way. Make it easy with Stitch Fix. Just share your size, style, budget and done. Your personal stylist sends pieces picked just for you. That was easy. Stitch Fix online. Personal styling for everyone. Free shipping and returns.
- [52:49]
C
No subscription required.
- [52:50]
A
Get started today@stitch fix.com.
- [52:58]
C
Why don't we kind of move like, what's happening today? Like, okay, so that, that was in 2020, 2016, that prophecy in 2007. How's it manifesting today? I have a clip here I want to play. This is a Landon shot and Miles Rutherford. They're two major players, like in this nar adjacent world, spiritual warfare. Landon shot is the pastor of mercy culture. They're planting campuses all over America, including in D.C. and he's talking to Miles Rutherford. I just think this is a great example of the amount of, I don't, I don't want to be rude, but just the amount of like, delusion they're under and how they justify what is totally unjustifiable when it comes to Trump. Check out this clip and then we'll talk about it. Here we go.
- [53:42]
I
I want to talk to you about your interactions with Trump coming to your church.
- [53:46]
J
I woke up on a Friday and I went into my office and the Lord, he said, what would you say if I give you an audience with Trump? Here's what I want you to say. Remind him of a prophetic word that was given by Kim Clement. Seven things in that prophetic word. Five have happened, two have not. This is the next day. My phone's blowing up by Travis Johnson. He says, you're going to want to take this. Trump is coming to Atlanta. Jensen Franklin's church is a little far from the airport. Would you guys do that? So he, he comes, he's going to close out. There's going to be a prayer. He's going to leave immediately, has to go to it he doesn't leave. I have never felt Holy Ghost possessed like that in my life. And I said, have you ever heard of the Kim Clement prophecy? And everybody just like, boom, come up inside. And he said, yeah, I think I've heard of it. There's seven things in that prophecy that was spoke of. Five have come to pass, two have not. Then he said, what were the other two? And I said, you will serve a second term. Number two, when you sit in that seat, you will be baptized in the Holy Ghost.
- [54:39]
C
Okay, so just two things here. Number one, Trump is serving a second term. So I don't know how that isn't true, but. And this is posted recently, by the way.
- [54:47]
A
And number two, I wonder if maybe Trump visited the church, like prior to the election, maybe. Yeah, that would make sense.
- [54:56]
C
And the other one is being baptized in the Holy Ghost. Meaning. Okay, again, insider baseball. In charismatic spaces, they believe that when you get saved, that's one thing, but there's also a second baptizing of the Holy Spirit that gives you the gifts of the Spirit, charismatic, That's what gives.
- [55:12]
A
You the power to heal the sick and cast out demons and be able to prophecy prophesy.
- [55:18]
C
It just is so fascinating because actually, can I do this? Can I play this other clip I have of Miles talking about sin? And I just want to. I just want to play this for people and then just kind of compare and contrast, like how he thinks about this, but how Trump is an exception again because of prophecy. This is that same person, Miles, preaching at his church. I'll play this clip.
- [55:37]
A
It's about a minute long, like Pride month. Why is there a rainbow behind him?
- [55:41]
C
It's not. You'll hear it.
- [55:43]
E
Okay.
- [55:45]
J
Satan will change the name of sin to make sin adaptable to accept. So instead of changing our ways, we.
- [55:51]
C
Will change the wording.
- [55:52]
J
Instead of pedophilia, we'll call it minor attracted people. Instead of sexual exploitation, let's call it adult entertainment. Instead of sex cults where we bump and grind, we'll just call them music clubs. Instead of cults, we'll call them clubs. Instead of adultery, we'll call it swinging and open marriages. Instead of mental illness, let's call it gender dysphoria. Instead of gender mutilation, let's call it gender transitioning. Instead of fornication, let's call it intimacy. Instead of lust, let's call it love. Instead of calling it a spiritual battle of good and evil, let's call it political, let's call it a. A phobia, let's Call it hate speech, call it something else. We are not called baby killers. We're called abortionists. It's no longer sin. It's a complex.
- [56:40]
C
It's an addiction.
- [56:41]
J
It's a disorder. It's an obsession. So we don't feel bad about our sins. We change the name of them. And when we hear the truth preached, we feel conviction, but we condemn the preacher as hate speech.
- [56:54]
C
That's the same guy who says that Trump will be baptized in the Holy Ghost. Now, what's interesting about this clip is that the first, almost all of the statements he makes besides abortion and politics, are around sex. And Trump is one of the most unrepentant sexual abusers that we can think of in politics today, who's also someone who was best friends with a known pedophile and has covered it up. And Miles will preach a sermon like this, condemning what he thinks is sexual immorality and all this other stuff, but then talk about how Trump will be baptized in the Holy Ghost at some point because God has his hand on Trump, and somehow we're supposed to believe that these are congruent things.
- [57:37]
A
It's unbelievable, the projection. Also, like, he could easily be like, instead of narcissism, we'll call him a man of God.
- [57:47]
C
Exactly, exactly, exactly. Instead of greedy, we'll just call him a good businessman.
- [57:53]
A
Right?
- [57:54]
C
So, yeah, I mean, this is what always boggles my mind is this kind of, hey, Trump is our guy. Trump is God's anointed. Also, this dude's obsessed with sex and all the things that Trump has done and bragged about, right? And it's like, somehow it's okay for the congregation to have to submit to Miles authority, because remember, if you call up the preacher, that's hate speech, right? You can't condemn the preacher. That's just hate speech. And how dare you? But, hey, we'll give Trump the pass. Yeah, Trump is God's anointed. That's how this world works. It's. It's. It's like bewildering.
- [58:28]
I
When you.
- [58:28]
C
When you examine, you have to take.
- [58:30]
A
Into account, too, if you're raised in this world and you go to, like, Christian school or you're homeschooled or whatever. You're also taught to have a natural skepticism when it comes to certain facts that don't come from Christians. That's like science. For example, like, I knew people that believed that fossils were put in the ground by Satan to trick us. So you automatically have a distrust of things that are factual and logical. If it didn't come from something you can base on the Bible.
- [59:04]
C
Yeah, okay. I thought this was him. Okay, hold on. While. While we're here just to prove your point that I think might. Oh, my. Drop some jaws if I can get my pop up to not do this anymore. This is that same guy Landon shot we just heard about the pastor of Mercy culture. Listen to this, friends. Listen to this. I'm gonna refresh this. We can start from the beginning as quick video.
- [59:26]
I
I just walked into an MC Prep board meeting and there was these balloons in a surprise gift. I'm like, what's this going out? And I just found out I'm behind in the news. I'm a little slow getting old, but I just found out we are the number one school in Tex for least vaccinations. And I guess the news got a hold of it and they were trying to spin it like it was some awful thing. But I just want to congratulate all the family members of MC Prep that embrace freedom of health. And they're not allowing government or science projects to affect how you live and lead your life. I know the entire world was shut down with insanity and people were fired from their job for forced vaccination. And freedom is something that we take seriously. Religious freedom, freedom of our health. And so shout out to MC Prep for being the least vaccinated school in Texas.
- [60:19]
A
We'll take it.
- [60:19]
I
Or as mercy cultures say, we celebrate it. We'll put it on the board.
- [60:22]
C
Okay, so just notice, notice briefly how he talks about freedom, freedom of religion, but based on what we know about what the NAR believes, they actually believe in total dominion, and they believe in taking control and ruling over other people. That is the magic trick that they employ. Right? Landon will talk about freedom of religion and freedom, how we embrace medical freedom, which is, I mean, so stupid, so anti science, but whatever. They're the same people who cannot wait for Trump to keep ripping immigrants out of this country, even if they're here illegal here legally. They can't wait for Trump to declare that America only has two genders. They can't wait for trans affirming health care to be banned, for abortion everywhere to be banned. They want Obergefell overturned. Right? These people do not believe in religion or religious freedom. They believe in their Christian privilege. They don't believe in freedom, period. They believe in tyranny. As long as they're the ones who get to set the rules for tyranny, that is. And that.
- [61:27]
A
That's.
- [61:27]
C
That's their theology. The dominion mandate. It is it's baked into the nar belief system that God has called them to take dominion over society, to usher in the return of Christ. That's where we are in America right now. That's where we are.
- [61:48]
A
I know. And it's why it can be so hard for so many of these people to change their mind. And like, to be clear, not everybody who's MAGA is in AR, but I think everyone who is in AR is MAGA, oh, 100%.
- [62:03]
C
And I think just to drive home the point, then we can wrap it up here, you know, because I can imagine people saying, oh, Tim, that's so extreme. You're being. You know, this is ridiculous. Like, Trump doesn't believe these people. He probably doesn't believe them, but he sure as hell will have them at the White House. All these people in this room, or most of them, are part of that nar world. In fact, there's Landon. Landon is over here on the far right. 1, 2, 3. He's four people in from the right. We have Russell Johnson's over here. There's Myles Rutherford in the picture who we just heard about the Clement prophecy and talking about how, you know, don't call it intimacy, call it adultery, whatever it is. There's Paula White. Jensen Franklin is right there. These are the people who are meeting and praying over the President. In fact, this was a post from Landon shot. I have his caption up here. April, I was hoping maybe you could read it in your wonderful reading voice because I can't do it. And here's what he said in the caption. This is Landon, who we just shared the vaccine anti vaccine guy, pastor of Mercy Culture. Here's what he said in the caption.
- [63:10]
A
There are some all caps in here. So your thing. I was invited to the White House Oval Office to pray and meet the President. I was honored to step into the Oval Office. What a moment. When I walked in, I felt the weight of the responsibility that rests on that office. There was a swirl of pressure pulling from every direction. And it was clear how demanding that seat really is. We worshiped and then prayed for the President. My prayer was simple. I welcomed the Holy Spirit and asked him to fill that room with his presence and fire. I have prayed on the outside of the White House more times than I can remember. Holy Spirit, you are welcome here. America belongs to the Lord. Years of praying, years of fasting, years of taking action. This assignment has cost me reputation and support and invited criticism and slander. The goal was never a picture inside the White House. The Goal is revival in the church, reformation in our nation, and a great awakening sweeping America again. Moments like this make you reflect. Days later in prayer, I found myself searching my own heart, making sure I desire to be in a room with the Lord more than a room with any man. Oh, there's more. I left with the holy sphere, a deep awareness that obedience over time, orders steps that critics never see. You can choose to be people of cynicism and criticism or people of faith in action. This isn't political, it's spiritual. Pause. That's Christian nationalism. Okay, continuing.
- [64:33]
C
Yep.
- [64:34]
A
God is calling his church to pray and act. If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray. 2 Chronicles 7:14. Every time I have been with the President, he speaks about how vital people of faith are and how strong, healthy churches matter for the future of America. I am grateful for an administration filled with men and women of faith who understand the importance of the church in America. Deeply thankful for the White House faith office and the leadership of Paula White and Ginny Corn. I am deeply grateful for the National Faith Advisory Board, for the invitation and the opportunity to stand in that moment of prayer and intercession and pray over our nation's leaders. Please continue to pray for our nation and for the leaders of our country. America. Prayer hands.
- [65:18]
C
I mean, how much clearer can it be? I. I don't know how else to convince people like, we have to take this stuff seriously because these. The Landon is clear as day what's going on here.
- [65:28]
A
But that type of wording and manipulation is what it keeps so many people, like just kind of lay people, just your average churchgoer, keep them supporting Donald Trump because like you said, this isn't political, this is spiritual. There is a good side, which is God's side, and there is an evil side, which is Satan's side. And Trump is on God's side.
- [65:49]
C
Right? It doesn't matter what he does, what he says.
- [65:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. They equate voting for Donald Trump as. As like an act of obedience to God.
- [65:57]
C
Right in. The irony of that is that first off, the economy is. Is doing terrible. We're not adding nearly as much job, many jobs as we thought. In fact, we don't have real jobs numbers. Trump fires people whenever they give data that doesn't support his propaganda. Trump himself is sharing horrific videos of him taking dumps on peaceful protesters. Trump pretends he's a king. Trump is not. Our health care premiums are going through the freaking roof next year. How are we? Great. Grocery prices are not down. We are Separating. We are ripping mothers from their children after they go to immigration hearings to do things the, quote, unquote, right way. Because for Landon and for Christian nationalism, they only care about making sure gay people go back in the closet, that no abortions for any reason ever happen in America, and that we have more access to guns and that they're in charge. Those are their values. As long as Trump gives them those things, everything is fine. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter about livable wages or affordable health care or access to quality education, because they don't like education, Right? Intellectualism, science is just propaganda. Vaccines are ridiculous. We should celebrate having low vaccine rates. I get passionate about this because these people are gonna kill people. Low vaccination rates are the reason we have measles outbreaks again in America that have killed children. In Texas after Landon said that shit, they had a measles outbreak. The reason women are bleeding out in hospitals when they're in need of an abortion because what happened to their body or the fetus is terrible, is because of these kinds of policies that these people think is somehow like God honoring, right? The reason we have a megalomaniac narcissist doofus in the White House who wants to plunge us into war with Venezuela is because these people convince their audience that God has anointed this man by ripping out verses out of the Hebrew Bible out of context and slapping them on Trump. Like somehow it makes sense. They don't treat the Bible with respect. They're not theologians. They. They pillage the Bible like the freaking colonizers that they are. And here's the result, right? The result is. Is what we're seeing in America. That's why I get so fired up, because I don't care what Landon believes. If Landon wants to preach his stuff in his church and grow his church, and people want to believe that nonsense, fine. But my God, keep it out of my house. Keep it out of my society. Keep it out of my classrooms. Don't come for my kids with that shit. Don't tell my kid that if he's gay, he's an abomination to God. Get out of here. You know, and it's. It's something that we have to cover because too many people out there do not understand this. They don't understand the militancy, the supremacy, the God complex that these folks have. I mean, even one. One last thing I'll say, and then I'll wrap it up. Here is, I think, in this part, where is it Landon says he kind of Paints himself as like a. As like a martyr. Here. Was it in this slide or was it the second one?
- [69:02]
A
Oh, yeah. The critics. A deep awareness.
- [69:04]
C
Yeah, yeah. No, there's another one that he. That he lost things. Where is it?
- [69:12]
A
This assignment has cost me reputation and support and invited criticism and slander.
- [69:17]
C
Right. No humility. No humility. No consideration of maybe what some of his other spiritual friends are saying might be true. It's pure ego. But he doesn't think it is. Landon thinks he's just being obedient to God. What he doesn't realize is that he's made God in his own image. Landon worships the God of empire, of power, of domination. It's literally the opposite of the incarnation. We just celebrated Christmas, right? The whole message of Christmas in the Christian tradition is that the God of all things takes on human flesh not in the form of Caesar or of someone born into riches or in political power, but on the underside of society. Right. He comes into this world in the form of a baby born to an unwed teenage mother, Right. Who's under the occupation of empire. And that baby is, in Matthew's account anyway, is targeted by the empire for slaughter. They escaped to Egypt as refugees. That's the story of the Christian good news. It's a middle finger to empire. And Landon and his NAR folks have somehow inverted that to believe and to mean that they have to take political power and cultural control to save America, because that's what this God wants them to do. It's ass backwards. I will stop ranting now. I just had to get that off my chest. April.
- [70:52]
A
Well, it just forces you to live in a different reality and you justify it by the people you surround yourself with. By. I mean, even take Kim Clement's prophecy. They're basing this whole thing not on anything that the Bible actually says. They're basing it.
- [71:07]
C
Exactly.
- [71:07]
A
Some random man.
- [71:09]
C
Great point.
- [71:09]
A
Something in 2007.
- [71:11]
C
Right.
- [71:12]
A
And then more and more, like, are building off of that.
- [71:15]
C
Yeah. This is not the gospel. This is not the good news. This is terrible news for most people. So, anyway, friends, I just. We, you know, we. It's been a long year, let's face it. Right. For all of us. And there's been a lot of change, I think, both personally, professionally, and culturally on all different levels. Right. We launched a Tim and April show this year, separate from the new evangelicals podcast. TNE has a new executive director, which is great. You and I are doing more content than ever. And also, everything in culture has been, you know, this first year under Trump's rule has been just worse than we could have imagined. And I think that all the more reason, as discouraged as we are feeling today, you know, all the more reason for us to keep exposing the theology and nationalism behind it, because I don't think enough people really get the Christian supremacy behind this and just how detrimental it's going to continue to be if people don't, you know, stand up and do what they can to get these people out of office, frankly.
- [72:11]
A
Right. Yeah. So totally. Well, we hope you all have a happy New Year.
- [72:17]
C
I knew you were gonna say that, like. Well, on that note.
- [72:22]
A
On that note, jolly good time. Let's bring it in. You know what I always do on New Year's Eve?
- [72:27]
C
What? Tell me.
- [72:28]
A
When I count down to midnight, I stand on the right foot so I can start the new year on the right foot.
- [72:34]
C
I love that for you. Maybe I'll. Maybe I'll join you in the spirit.
- [72:37]
A
I actually do do that, though.
- [72:38]
C
You should. That's a good idea.
- [72:40]
A
I like puns.
- [72:41]
C
I. I'm a big fan of New Year's. We used to do a 10pm to 10am party with all of our friends. There was like 50 of us tournaments, Mario Kart tournaments. It was a lot. It was a good time. But now we're too old. I have kids. I'll be in bed.
- [72:53]
A
Are you gonna watch the Stranger Things finale, though?
- [72:56]
C
I have to, obviously. I mean, I have to watching that as well. Yeah, I will.
- [73:00]
A
So.
- [73:01]
C
Hey, friends, for real, in all seriousness, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for making the podcast a huge Success and the YouTube channel. 11,000 subs in the first few months of doing this show has been amazing. We see a lot of the same faces and names that comment. Thank you to all the supporters who are here. April and I are gearing up for another full year of doing this work. We're not going anywhere. We are committed to it, to helping you not feel alone, because, frankly, you help us not feel alone as well. So I hope you have a great new year for real. And we'll talk to you in January.
- [73:30]
A
Yep. Bye. See y' all next year.
- [73:32]
C
Bye.