A (2:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (2:45)

So we're going to be getting into a.

A (2:47)

In a. In a second. It is January. My kids are back at school today.

C (2:51)

Yep.

A (2:51)

How are you?

B (2:52)

I'm doing well, thank you for asking.

A (2:54)

Tuesday.

B (2:55)

I am excited.

A (2:56)

Well, yeah, two lives this week.

B (2:58)

Two lives. We're going live twice today and Thursday, which is always exciting, although it's a lot of work. Thank you, friends, by the way, for watching. Please feel free to give the video a. Like, subscribe to the channel on YouTube if you're watching on Substack. Thank you so much. Smash that heart button. It makes us feel like you're actually watching and care about what we're saying. It feels good. That's the only thing I got for that. Yeah, my kids are back to school this week, too, which is very nice. Winter break was nice, but it was also nice to have our oldest go back to school to get back into his routine because, you know, they get a little dysregulated over time, and then mom and dad get dysregulated, and then we're all dysregulated. So, yeah, I'm glad to be back in my. My rhythm.

A (3:37)

I feel that. I feel that after going, like, once Christmas hits, then it's just like, you don't know what day it is. You're just full of junk food. You're doing nothing. You're becoming a slob. Yeah, well.

B (3:54)

And as content creators, you try to take off, but, like, it's always kind of hard to be completely off because you can always comment quickly on threads or something. So just, you know, it was good to have a time off. But I'm glad to be back in the rhythm. Like, on Monday, I told Sarah, I'm like, I'm so glad we're back into our rhythm. Like, you know, the gym in the morning, Tim goes to school, I start doing my stuff. So it feels really good to be back. So I will also mention, briefly, then we'll move on to our main topic, that it is great to see Avengers Doomsday trailers dropping. I've been watching all of those religiously, so that's very exciting.

A (4:26)

I haven't seen any yet.

B (4:27)

Oh, I won't say anything, but they're out there. And for those who want to go watch a few of the teasers, they're out there, so we'll leave it there.

A (4:34)

Well, you know, have you heard the conspiracy? We're about to talk about, like, Christian nationalist conspiracies, but there's a Stranger Things conspiracy that there's going to be another episode dropped tomorrow.

B (4:46)

Yeah, it's actually funny you say that. There's a video I saw of someone kind of putting the whole conspiracy together, and I thought to myself, this is actually a masterclass on how conspiracies work because they are pulling from, like, the show, but they're completely adding, like, wild interpretations and wild connections that don't really exist to kind of paint this thread. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I've been following that. I don't think anything will drop tomorrow for a lot of reasons.

A (5:14)

But you know, it's funny, I saw someone post, I didn't know who they were, but they said me like wholeheartedly believing that there's another episode dropping tomorrow is the first time that I finally understand religious people.

B (5:29)

It's true. Right? Oh boy. Well, listen, speaking of conspiracies, let's get into our topic today, January6, a lot to talk about. The angle for us is talking about the religious extremism that really fueled a lot of what happened on the six that many people don't know about. So today April and I were talking, we brought on or we're going to bring on a guest, someone I've had on the TNE podcast many times. I even brought him in studio last year to talk about this. Matthew Taylor is a scholar. He wrote an amazing book, the Violent Take it by Force. I recommend it to everyone that asks for reading on Christian nationalism because it's such a good accessible book. So please everyone, welcome on the show Matthew to Good to see you.

C (6:11)

Hello. Thank you for having me. And I am also very glad to have my children back in school today.

B (6:17)

Yeah, it is not. Sorry.

A (6:20)

Relatable content.

B (6:21)

Yeah, relatable man. Relatable.

C (6:23)

I can't remember which, which Christmas carol has that line about mom and dad can hardly wait for school to start again. But I kept reciting that to my wife through the last two weeks.

B (6:32)

I love that. Well, Matt, thanks so much for taking time. You know, you've been one of the, one of a few people who are really at the intersection of you're doing academic work on Christian nationalism, in particular in your case, the new Apostolic Reformation. But also you're pretty publicly accessible. You know, you've been on the news many times, you've been on the show many times. But for those of the audience who might not know you, can you just give a very brief introduction to your work and who you are?

C (6:57)

Yeah. So I have written three books now. The third one is coming out this fall, but the second one is the Violent Take it by Force. And I've also done two different podcast series, Charismatic Revival Fury and American Unexceptionalism. American Unexceptionalism just finished airing in December. So yeah, I've been doing a lot of public work. I did my master's degree at Fuller Seminary, my Ph.D. at Georgetown University. I've done a lot of work in interreligious dialogue work on American Islam. But since January 6, I have really been focused on Christian nationalism, Christian supremacy, especially within more non denominational charismatic networks. And that's really my area of primary research and focus in this. And then right now I'm making a little bit of a move, a pivot into working more theologically on these questions as well. And that's what my next book is trying to address Christian nationalism and Christian supremacy from within the Christian theological tradition.

A (7:55)

Nice. Which we, I, my, I feel like the best way to fight Christian nationalism is to use the Bible, especially the words of Jesus, like the Kryptonite.

C (8:08)

Yes. Jesus is on our side in this is a true trump card. And I mean that with all the puniness that you can find.

B (8:17)

I love that. Well, let's start with this. April and I did kind of our own overview of the NAR last week on our, on our YouTube channel. People can check it out, but I really want to hear from your vantage point because you really, I mean, you've done the deep dives. Can you kind of give people an introduction to the NAR and kind of where they sit in the broader evangelical world? Because it is kind of nuanced and I think the nuance is actually really important. And then I want to start leading us into, you know, how the NAR kind of fueled a lot of what we saw in interesting ways, I think people aren't talking about when it comes to January 6th.

C (8:52)

Yeah. So the NAR, which stands for New Apostolic Reformation. If you go and just Google it, you're going to find some fairly strange and wacky conspiracy theories, probably, although that's started to get cleaned up in recent years. But there has been a lot of misunderstanding of the nar, and that's what I'm trying to challenge and correct with my book. So here we're talking about a movement, a leadership network, actually, that forms in the late 1990s in that non denominational charismatic space. You could think of it as kind of the non denominational wing of Pentecostalism. So a lot of people are familiar with Pentecostalism, Right. Kind of ecstatic spirituality, speaking in tongues. Well, all of that exists also in this more non denominational space that is less regulated and less kind of organized than formal Pentecostalism. And that space, this non denominational charismatic space, is the fastest growing segment of Christianity in the world. Also the fastest growing segment of Christianity in the United States. And this is the world megachurches and televangelism and charismatic prophets with YouTube channels on prophecy. Right. And in that space, in the 1990s, there formed this network of leaders called the New Apostolic Reformation. It was centered around a seminary professor named C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary, which is my alma mater. And he was thought that he was ordained by God as an apostle to gather modern day apostles and prophets who would then instigate a massive reformation within global Protestantism. That would be a change in the life of Christianity on the order of the Protestant Reformation. That's why they called it a new Reformation. And the hundreds of charismatic leaders, pastors and revivalists and worship leaders joined these networks around. Peter Wagner started using this terminology. And basically everyone who joined these networks said, we are modern day apostles and prophets. They believe in this vision of kind of a global end times revival that they were going to bring about. And over time, those networks became highly politicized. And I can get into some of the reasons why, but they really had a kind of breakthrough moment when Donald Trump hit the scene in 2015. They'd been kind of building on the fringes for a very long time, but they'd always been seen as kind of outsiders within the world of broader kind of the religious right. And it was really through the early Trump campaign, in 2015 and 2016, they moved into the center of the American religious right. And today I'd argue that independent charismatics and even some of the core NAR leaders are some of the most influential evangelicals in the kind of MAGA coalition, the MAGA constellation of influencers. And they have really set the frame, the narrative frame and the theological frame of Christian Trumpism and built this kind of mythos of Trump as Messiah that I would argue has really restructured the Republican Party and American Christianity.

A (12:02)

It's like a whole, it's just a whole other world that like most people have no idea about. But the layers and like the levels in which it, the influence it has today is, it's really mind blowing when you, when you take a step back and look at it. And I come from more Pentecostal, Christian nationalist worlds too. So it like, on one hand it's like, oh, this is just normal. But then on the other hand it's like, no, it's not. This is not normal at all.

C (12:30)

Yeah, I, I grew up more in normie evangelicalism, so this has never felt that normal to me. But yeah, I, I spent the last five years immersed in it, so I, sometimes I, I have to remember, oh, yeah, other people don't, don't have to live through the, the media feeds that I deal with.

B (12:46)

Right, Right. Can you. Let's break down. And this is, this is just such so important for an audience that maybe didn't grow up in this space even for other Evangelicals who aren't familiar with, with the NAR in particular, can you break down some of the core beliefs that kind of sets them apart, especially regarding ideas of spiritual warfare, you know, warring in the spirit, demonic strongholds, et cetera, and kind of separate the apostle from the prophet and how they kind of work together. Can you break that down for us?

C (13:15)

Yeah, sure. So this idea of apostles and prophets was not original to Peter. Wagner was not original to the nar. Those ideas had been around for a while in this non denominational charismatic space. Some of this goes back into the mid 20th century. There was a revival movement in Pentecostalism called the Latter Rain Revival, sometimes called the New Order of the Latter Rain and the Latter Reign is where you start to get this idea of modern day apostles and prophets or renewing the roles of apostles and prophets. And for those who are familiar with Christianity, right, apostle and prophet, these are very, very loaded authority terms from early Christianity and they're talked about in the New Testament. But most forms of Christian practice or denominations or ecclesiologies would say that those were ancient forms of Christian leadership that have now given way to pastors and bishops and elders. Right? But these folks, the central premise that they have is that they are modern day apostles and prophets being ordained and anointed by the Holy Spirit to bring about this global revival. And as you're saying, those roles are slightly differentiated. Sometimes people actually identify as both an apostle and a prophet. But the apostles are seen as movement starters, as builders, as kind of entrepreneurs. And so they build out, especially within kind of more NAR frames, what they call apostolic networks, massive networks of churches that all are looking to a single figure who is the apostle. Sometimes they even use the language of they are the spiritual father over this movement. And just to give you a sense of the scale of this, Cheon, who is one of the major NAR apostles, very, very influential within that world, also plays a central role in what happens around January 6th. He's currently running for governor of California.

B (15:06)

Right.

C (15:07)

And Cheon has an apostolic network called Harvest International Ministry that he leads, that is a global network, has over 20,000 ministries within it. Not 20,000 people. 20,000 NGOs and churches and parachurch ministries. They're in 65 plus countries. I mean, most people who are kind of around evangelicalism have like heard of the Vineyard churches, right? The Vineyard Churches globally have about maybe 2000, 2500 churches, right? So Cheon's network is 10 times the size of the Vineyard globally. But most people have never heard of It. Right. Because it operates more in this subterranean level. But all those ministries, all those leaders, all those churches think of Cheon as their apostolic Father and look to him as this kind of quasi authoritarian leader within their kind of spirituality. So very, very powerful, very, very influential. The prophets are seen more as people who hear the voice of God and speak the voice of God into communities and individuals and even to nations. And so within NAR theology, the prophets and apostles go together and work together and kind of complement each other. The prophets, they love their military metaphors. So they would say the prophets are like military intelligence because they can see the plans of the enemy, the plans of Satan, and this is where we start to get into spiritual warfare. But the apostles are the generals who can mobilize the forces of God to combat the forces of Satan.

A (16:42)

I think it's how you have, like, which, you know, I know we're talking about past and leading up to the insurrection, but I've seen a lot of MAGA Christians celebrate the move that Trump just did with Venezuela and taking that oil, even though they're just outright being like, yeah, we did that for the oil. Because they have this. This. This understanding that God has given them things that they have a right to, despite. Despite who on earth actually owns those things, that their authority comes from God. So that's how it can make sense that the Christians in this world can say, well, God just wanted America to have Venezuelan oil.

C (17:24)

Yes. Yeah. So sometimes we talk so much about Christian nationalism that we lose all the nuance. Christian nationalism is a form of nationalism that is. And nationalisms in general are obsessed with borders and boundaries. Right. To be a nationalist is to say we are the real people who inhabit this territory, and anyone else who inhabits this territory doesn't really belong. They're interlopers. Right. So it's very obsessed with kind of shoring up the boundaries and borders of the nation, whether literal or kind of metaphorical identity. Boundaries. Right. I would argue that the NAR is more of a style of Christian imperialism, and imperialism is. It overlaps with nationalism. Right. But imperialism is about expansion. Imperialism is about conquest, about colonizing the world. And in fact, where in most Christian communities today, you would not find people using colonizing as a positive word. Right. Most Christians would say, yeah, that was a very bad thing. When Christians got involved in colonizing other people in the new Apostolic Reformation, they love this terminology and they think of colonizing. They'll even say, the church is a colonizing force sent from heaven by God to colonize the earth with the culture of heaven. Yeah. And so they have been very excited about what they've seen in Venezuela when Trump bombed Iran. They were very excited about that. They're also very accelerationist in their politics and want to see the toppling of the present order, the present global order. And they see Trump as an agent of doing that. So, yes, it's very, very combative, very, very militaristic. They love military metaphors. And it's also very international. And so they. This is not merely a movement that exists within the United States and is focused on the United States. They are focused on global Christian conquest. And that's why Cheon's Network is in 65 countries. He is a Christian imperialist on a global scale.

B (19:22)

Before we get into the spiritual warfare side and friends, I, we have clips of January 6th. We're going to play. We're getting there. But this foundation is just really. Because it often goes like you said, Matt, it either gets kind of lumped into one big term called Christian nationalism or it gets overlooked completely. Someone asked a really good question that I think is important. Kelly asked, so are they self appointed as an apostle or prophet? How does that work? And I think that's a really important piece of the puzzle here.

C (19:49)

Yes. So oftentimes people will, critics of the NAR will say these people are just self appointed apostles or self appointed prophets. I think it's actually more substantial than that. Right. Why do we call the Pope the Pope? Well, because there are followers who look to the Pope as the Pope. I'm not Catholic, but I still refer to Pope Leo as the Pope. Right. Why do we call a Muslim religious leader an imam? Well, because there's a community that is attached to that religious leader who understands them as an imam. Right. And so it's the community that conveys these titles and this authority on people. And within the world of non denominational charismaticism, where there are not denominations that are conferring titles and kind of authority on people, it becomes really about the community that validates these folks. And especially within the new apostolic Reformation networks, they would say apostles recognize other apostles, prophets recognize other prophets. And so they all vouch for each other and for each other's authority and they collaborate through that. And in my book, I describe it more as an oligarchic form of authority and leadership. Right. We talk about autocracy or authoritarianism is often centered around one person. Right. The dictator. But then when we talk about the oligarchs in Russia. Right. Oligarchs are a class of leaders who agree to collaborate and share power in order to advance their own personal interests. And so the NAR is a spiritual oligarchy that exists within the non denominational charismatic leadership space. And so you have this network of leaders that are all vouching for each other, collaborating, building new things. But on paper, they all have these autonomous ministries that do not connect with each other. And so the connections happen at the level of relationships instead of at the level of institutions.

A (21:46)

And I think too, from growing up in this world, there's a lot of emphasis on that anybody can be a prophet. If God's called you to, there's this push on spiritual gifts and they want to cultivate your spiritual gift. And so you'll see young people in youth group given microphones. And if they give, you know, what we would call quote, unquote, word where God's speaking through them, those are like signs like, oh, God's called you to be a prophet. And then they elevate each other too. So there's this kind of, everyone kind of believes, oh, I, I might be a prophet. I need to, you know, tap into that and see where that leads.

C (22:23)

Yes. And there's, there's a lot of informal mentoring that goes on, apprenticeship that goes on in this space. Right. Because again, you don't have seminaries or denominations that, that are ordaining clergy. People come up as apprentices, they, they join a church, they become a leader in a church, they grow up in a church. And then they have these leaders who are coming alongside saying, I think you might have this gifting. Why don't you try, try out prophesying and see if God speaks through you and then you'll know that you're a prophet. Right. And so there is this kind of communal reinforcement. And as you're saying, April, right, When we're talking about charismatics, right. Their notion of church leadership is built around charisma and spiritual gifting, and that comes directly from God. And so the church kind of affirms someone's gifting, but it comes directly from God. And so the apostles and the prophets would say, our authority comes directly from God. We hear the voice of God, we do the work of God. And they actually, part of why they exist more in this non denominational space is they see the institutions and the denominations as bureaucratic barriers to them enacting God's authority on the earth. Right. And so there's very little regulation in their space, but there's a lot, a lot of popularity and a lot of attention and interest in them.

D (23:43)

Hey, everyone. Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen, or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

B (24:34)

Okay, let's get, let's get to the final piece of the puzzle here and then we'll get into January six and kind of what's going on. Talk to us about, about the spiritual warfare element, what they actually believe around this idea of spiritual warfare. One thing in your book that I found interesting was, and I this is more the big picture. You can get the nuance was how a lot of the folks in this movement will travel to physical locations to like, wage war in the spirit, to like, you know, free that area from a demonic stronghold. So break this down for us so we can understand better what's going on when we get to January 6th.

C (25:06)

So let me start by telling a story. So Peter Wagner is the seminary professor in the 1980s, starts getting very interested in these charismatic ideas, starts hanging out around the Vineyard and playing around with some of these frames. And then he meets a woman named Cindy Jacobs in 1989. And Cindy Jacobs is one of these prophets. And she says, I'm a prophet and my anointing from God is to organize campaigns of spiritual warfare to liberate nations from the devil. That is her sense of what God has called her to do. And Peter Wagner becomes fascinated with this, begins working with and mentoring Cindy Jacobs, and they kind of mentor each other in a certain sense through the 1990s. And so Peter Wagner develops a whole framework based on Cindy Jacobs theology and prophecies that he calls strategic level spiritual warfare. Now, most, many, many Christians believe in spiritual warfare. Very, very common belief that there are angels and demons who are battling around us in this unseen realm and that that warfare affects us. Right. A lot of this people are getting from the New Testament book of Ephesians or from other passages in the New Testament. And so that's very, very common. These folks take that and they just amp it up and amp it up and amp it up. And so they say, well, what we need is, they say, actually there are high level demons, there are commander level demons, there are ranks of demons. It's a hierarchy. And at the top of that demonic hierarchy are what Peter Wagner calls territorial spirits, these high level commander level demons who hold power over literal, physical territory. And so they would say, well, why has the gospel not broken through in Los Angeles? Well, there must be a territorial spirit over Los Angeles that is in control. And if we can organize a campaign of spiritual warfare using the apostolic generals and prophets and the insights that they have, then we can combat and push out that territorial spirit. And in the 1990s, they start doing these big campaigns, and I'm talking hundreds of thousands, even millions of Christians praying at the same time for the same causes, orchestrated through these communication networks that they're building, and all built around this idea of spiritually conquering territory. And yeah, and part of that is they send strike teams to specific locations because they say the territorial spirits are anchored to a physical territory, so you can't displace them at a distance. This gets so wild in the 1990s that Peter Wagner and Siddi Jacobs actually send a team to Mount Everest in 1997 because they believe that there is a territorial spirit called the Queen of Heaven who has set up power over Central Asia and who is orchestrating the prevention of the spread of Christianity into Central Asia. And so they send a strike team. I think it's like 25 people to Mount Everest. They spend three weeks on the slopes of Mount Everest praying and singing songs and blowing shofars and trying to displace the Queen of Heaven. And he wrote a whole booklet about this that describes the process and how successful they were. Right. So this stuff. And by the way, at least one of the people from that strike team who went to Mount Everest show up on January 6th to do spiritual warfare at the Capitol.

A (28:25)

Of course they did.

B (28:26)

Of course they did. That's helpful, for sure. And look, I want to be clear to the audience, the only reason we're talking about this stuff is because of the implications it has for the sake of our neighbors. Right. People have beliefs, all kinds of beliefs. Not about that. Right. Regardless of if I, if I think it's my belief or not, I don't care if you think that there's a spiritual warfare and you want to go, you know, war in the spirit the problem is that this movement in particular is really focused, in my opinion, on power and control in the name of these ideals. Right. So we're getting closer to January 6th. Set up the stage for us, Matt. You know, obviously all of us were around when the big election fraud narrative from Trump was coming out. How were NAR leaders who were already kind of working with Trump, thanks to Paula White and others, you know, kind of in lockstep. How are they mobilizing up to January 6th from what your research shows?

C (29:18)

So beginning in 2015, as these folks start gathering around Donald Trump and around the MAGA movement and kind of providing in, many of the first Christian leaders to endorse Trump come out of the nar. But as they're endorsing Trump, they're also issuing prophecies about Trump, about Trump's special anointing, about how God has ordained Trump to be President of the United States. And this starts out kind of small in 2015, 2016. By 2020, this was just an avalanche of these prophecies. There were hundreds of charismatic prophets, some of them associated with the ner, some of them more in this kind of broader, non denominational charismatic space, who were all saying in chorus, in unison, God has ordained for Donald Trump to win the 2020 election. God has said that Trump will have a second term. And there were no prophets in that world who were saying, actually, I got a different prophecy. They all have different variations on it. They were like, oh, I have a vision of Trump hitting a home run, or I had a vision of Trump winning the race. Right. And so they attach these things to different biblical passages, but they're all pushing in the same direction. And then, of course, Donald Trump loses the 2020 election. And so when he refuses to concede, these folks, these prophets start saying, well, we're not taking back our prophecies either. This election has not been decided yet. And so we know that God has ordained for Trump to win this election. This must mean that we have to do spiritual warfare in order to defeat the demonic conspiracy that must be trying to prevent Trump from taking office. And so we need a mass campaign of spiritual warfare to complement Trump's Stop the Steal campaign and have that drive Christians to pray, because behind the Democrats are demons that are trying to keep Trump from power. And this becomes this mass propaganda campaign that is being driven through charismatic media, being driven through podcasts and televangelism shows. Paula White, as you said, who is Donald Trump's closest religious advisor, she is very deep in this independent, charismatic space, believes in these prophecies herself. And so there's this kind of united push from all, from hundreds of these prophets and apostles and leaders, all saying in chorus, God wants Donald Trump to win this election. God has ordained for Donald Trump to win this election. All the prophets are in agreement. We need to make it happen in the real world. And so they start staging what are called Jericho marches. And the Jericho marches were spiritual warfare rallies, often at the state capitals in the swing states. But then the major. This all culminates in a big Jericho march on the national mall on December 12, less than a month before January 6. And they are doing spiritual warfare and praying for. For the election to be swung to Trump in the spiritual realm. Because, again, they think of this, that there's a direct interface between these demonic powers and their political opponents.

B (32:27)

I pulled this short 20 second clip from the Jericho march. People can hear the kind of language that was espoused consistently. So here's a little clip.

C (32:35)

Friends, by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, I now claim and sanctify this air, water, ground, fire, the underground, the netherworld, all of nature, all evil spirits, you are cast to the feet of Jesus Christ to be disposed of as he wishes. I ask that no demonic bondage, door, entity, portal, astral projection or disembodied spirit may enter this space of 5,000 miles in all directions.

B (33:03)

That was the best I could find from. For YouTube. So it is what it is.

A (33:06)

Hopefully they did not throw in that someone opposed Eclipse.

B (33:10)

But, yeah, I mean, I think that that's a pretty good representation of the kind of language that maybe we would hear from some of these leaders, if, if that makes sense.

C (33:18)

And there were, there were multiple members of the NAR core leadership team who spoke at that Jericho march. That's actually a Catholic priest, it seems like, from the way he's speaking, probably a charismatic Catholic priest, because there's a whole charismatic movement within Catholicism that's also very into the spiritual warfare stuff. But, yeah, that, that is the language they're using. Right. The other side is a conspiracy of demons that is orchestrating to prevent Trump from, from winning. And we need to make certain declarations. We need to gather in these mass gatherings and we need to prevent. We need to fulfill the prophecies by combating in the spiritual realm, doing spiritual violence to bring about Trump's reinstate. Reinstatement as president.

A (34:01)

Yeah. For those who may not have, who didn't grow up Christian or religious, Jericho March is based off the story of Jericho, where God promised a city to the Israelites and They weren't able, it was Israelites and they weren't able to get in. So they marched. God told them to march around the city seven times and then God would deliver that city to them. And so these Jericho marches are based on that biblical story.

C (34:28)

Yeah, yes. And in the story of Jericho, Right. There's the blowing of trumpets is a part of this kind of ritualized kind of marching around the city. And then as they blow the trumpets, the walls of the city fall. So after the December Jericho march, people literally marched around the Supreme Court of the United States blowing their shofars, blowing their trumpets and proclaiming that God was going to put Trump back in office through the Supreme Court. At that point, they were still hoping for the Supreme Court to intervene at that point.

B (34:59)

I actually have a small clip here of January 6th, someone doing just that inside of the. They were on the outside blowing their shofar through the broken glass into the Capitol. And Matt, I would love kind of your commentary after, after we, we play this. There you go. I mean, that's a real thing that happened on January 6th. People were blowing shofars like that.

C (35:41)

And there were dozens of people in the crowd around the capitol who had shofars. Right. And to. So again, if, if, if you're just coming at this cold and looking at that, that is just bizarre. Right. These people must have mental health issues. They're blowing a ram's horn that looks like a medieval kind of trumpet into the broken out windows of the Capitol building. Right. But if you understand how they think about spiritual warfare, this actually makes a lot of sense. And in fact, if you looked, the woman who was blowing the shofar actually also had a tallit, a Jewish prayer shawl. And so a lot of what happens in these charismatic spaces is they're often appropriating Jewish rituals, Jewish practices, Jewish symbols as part of how they kind of tap into these kind of biblical narratives or biblical ideas. And so she is there doing spiritual warfare. Right. She's not going into the building. She doesn't see her role as taking over the building. She sees her role as spiritually conquering the building. And so in these kind of charismatic circles, they'll often talk about that the shofar is a weapon of spiritual warfare that summons the armies of heaven to do battle on behalf of God's cause. And so she is summoning angels to come to the Capitol to do battle against the demons that they believe have occupied the Capitol. And so she is using the shofar as a means of kind of driving that, making that conceptual idea into a spiritual reality as they would see it.

A (37:15)

It y. I've been in services where people have blown the shofar same.

B (37:22)

I've been in a few.

C (37:25)

And Jewish people like, I mean, because they're like, Jewish people do use the shofar still. It's especially around the high holidays. It's. It's a part of like Jewish liturgical things. But when Jewish people see these videos. And by the way, that. That was Haaretz. It was, it was an Israeli newspaper that actually captured that video. And all these Jewish people in Israel and the US were watching that video. Like this makes zero sense to us. I'm like, yeah, because you don't understand charismatic Christians.

B (37:47)

Right, Right. So you mentioned earlier the name Cindy Jacobs and how pivotal she was to the NAR with Wagner. This idea of prophetic, you know, what was the term that you said she claimed? Being able to capture nations or something.

C (38:04)

Yeah. So she sees herself as a leader of spiritual warfare over nations. And so she started her organization about. They called themselves apostolic intercessors. And still she leads this thing. It's called generals of spiritual warfare now. And so they are trying to use these kind of apostle and prophet paradigms and then tying that in with spiritual warfare to say apostles and prophets are the high level Christian commanders of spiritual warfare who can mobilize Christians and who can see into the spiritual realm and identify the specific demons that need to be cast out. And so Cindy Jacobs shows up at the Capitol on January 6th to do spiritual warfare with a whole group of NAR leaders.

B (38:49)

And we have a clip of that before we play it. Friends, thank you so much for being here. Welcome into the timid April show. We are currently live. Make sure to give this video a like if you're watching on YouTube and subscribe to our channel. If you're watching on substack. Thank you so much. Feel free to smash that heart button and subscribe to Lincoln Square Media. Thanks for being here. It means the world. I do see some super chats. We'll get to them in a few minutes, I promise. I just want to respect Matt's time while we have him. So let's, let's play this clip. So. So to your point, Cindy Jacobs was there on January 6 and I. This is a little montage. I pulled some clips of like out of a 10 minute long live stream just to kind of give people some, some, you know, like an idea of, of what this language is like in real time as she's watching this happen. So here we go. Not like the antifa Violence.

C (39:36)

No.

A (39:36)

Yeah. This is so different from. Just a moment, I'm.

B (39:39)

That's Sydney talking.

A (39:40)

This is so different from what is. What went on in the antifa. Even though there's. There's a protest, there's no violence, there's no killing, there's no breaking anything. What a different protest that we're going on right now.

B (40:00)

Stop.

A (40:00)

And let's pray together. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It's really wild, but it's not violent. I think the world should note the difference. The world should. Should take note of the difference and what's going on here at the Capitol. He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High, we pray this over the Capitol grounds, over Washington, D.C. i will say to the Lord, my refuge and my fortress, my God in whom I will trust. A thousand may fall at your side and 10,000 at your right hand, but it will. Will not come near you. You will only look and see. Look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked. Because you have made the Lord your dwelling place, the most High, who's my refuge. No evil shall be allowed to befall you.

B (41:15)

So there you go. A little montage there.

A (41:18)

I remember when, shortly after the insurrection, a bunch of MAGA people said that Antifa was disguising themselves as MAGA because they were so mad at the violence. They're like, well, that wasn't us, and that was Antifa disguised.

C (41:34)

That is still a core conspiratorial claim, in fact, one being pushed by the Trump administration itself today. Right.

A (41:40)

Either that or it was just completely peaceful.

B (41:43)

Right.

A (41:44)

We have footage, so.

C (41:47)

Yeah, so. And part of what I'm trying to show in the book is these folks, and I've interviewed a bunch of them. When you. When you talk to them, they would say, well, we were there, but we were just praying. We were just doing spiritual violence. We were not attacking anyone. Right? But you hear in their rhetoric, in the way that they are quoting the Bible, in the ideas that they are offering these rationales of violence, of takeover, right? They're standing there praying, but the rhetoric they're using is rhetoric of violence. And they're telling people the demons are inside that building. The demons are in the Democrats. Sometimes they'll call them the demon crats, right? And we need to stop the demons. So even though, as far as I can tell, there were no NAR leaders who went into the Capitol that day, I've identified at least five of the core NAR leaders. So people who are directly mentored by Peter Wagner who are at the center of this movement, who were there that day. There were dozens, maybe even hundreds of other leaders. I found more than 50, actually more than 60 now independent charismatic leaders who were there that day. Everything from kind of low level worship leaders up to like high level, internationally acclaimed prophets who are all there to do spiritual warfare under the leadership of people like Cindy Jacobs that day. And they helped to drive Christians to be there and amp them up with this rhetoric of the demons have taken over and we need. We are the ones who can stop the demons. Yeah.

B (43:09)

I think one of the things that really grinds my gears is how they're using scripture. Right. How they're using these songs. Right. These are, for many people, these are just songs about worshiping God or they're just scripture that they find personally fulfilling or helpful in times of need. And it's interesting to see how the NAR uses those things and sees them as like weapons of warfare. Right. Declaring scripture over what's happening or singing a song about how great is our God. Can you briefly, just briefly talk about how music plays a role in the NAR with worship and warfare? And then I want to play the clip later on of Cindy after she got back to her hotel room saying how it wasn't violent. Even more so.

C (43:48)

Yeah. So the. One of the kind of up and coming leaders in these NAR spaces is a guy named Shawn Foyt. And he'll often talk about worship is he was mentored by Cindy Jacobs and Chaeyeon and a number of these other leaders. But Sean will often say, worship is a weapon. Worship is our weapon. And. Right. So again. And he would say it's a spiritual weapon. Right. It's a weapon against the enemies of God. It's against demons. But then Sean will hang out with proud boys and oath keepers and far right militia types and stage big rallies and worship concerts where there's fighting and scuffling on the sidelines and sometimes at the heart of the thing. Right. So the rhetoric of violence will. Worship music in their mind, is a part of that. Violence is a part of bringing the kingdom of God into that space and then confronting these demonic powers that are there. And it's also really worth noting that if you look at evangelical worship music since the 1970s, the vast majority of it comes out of this non denominational charismatic space. That is the engine that drives evangelical worship music in general. Not just charismatic or Pentecostal worship music, but what normie evangelicals are singing in their churches as well, right. It's Bethel, it's Elevation, it's Hillsong, it's these brands of non denominational charismatic spirituality that are then being encoded within these worship songs. And so it's not a coincidence that they are singing these songs as they are storming the Capitol because they see, like the theology of warfare and of combat is often encoded within the songs themselves.

B (45:37)

Yeah, that's helpful.

A (45:38)

Well, they also look to like the Hebrew Bible and all the wars then and feel justified that violence is okay. And I just want to say real quick that what infuriates me about this particular group, that yes, maybe they were not the ones doing the violence. By them being there and singing these worship songs, they validate that violence and they say it's okay because God is on their side.

C (46:04)

Right.

A (46:04)

Because I don't remember a lot of them even condemning what happened that day.

C (46:08)

Oh, no. I mean, and that's the thing. Like, they, they saw the violence that day as a part of a kind of necessary enactment of God's will. And so, yeah, they were not, they're. They're savvy enough not to perpetrate the violence themselves. Right. But they fuel the violence. In my book, I call them the, the principal theological architects of the Capitol Riot. As opposed, like, I mean, you had proud boys and oath keepers and the other folks. And even, but even if you go and look at the proud boys and oath keepers and the rhetoric they were using that day, they were sometimes pulling phrases from kind of NAR vocabulary about revival and reformation, even as they're doing this as well. So it's not, it's not necessarily that the NAR leaders were the ones leading the charge physically, but they were the ones leading the charge spiritually, 100%.

B (46:57)

So this is Cindy Jacobs. After the day of January 6th, she's back in her hotel room. She goes live. This is like a 10 minute live. I'm not playing the whole thing. I'll play the beginning. Then I inserted some of my own editing. You'll see where that comes in. Just to kind of highlight the, the difference between how Cindy sees what happened that day versus the reality on the ground. And by the way, at this point, by the time Cindy gets back to her hotel room, it's all over the news. She had to have seen the actual violence going on via social media or newscasting. Yet this is her take on the Internet.

C (47:29)

And Tim, she actually left because of the violence. She and her crew saw the violence starting. It was like, this is getting out of hand. And they just left right so. But then she wants to pretend there was none.

B (47:42)

Yeah, here's what she says.

A (47:45)

We just witnessed incredible history. You know, we were praying Psalm 91. We were decreeing peace. And the thing that impressed us as we're watching all this is there was no violence to it.

C (48:15)

You scared now?

B (48:22)

Took over the capital.

C (48:23)

Overran the capital. We're in the capital, bro. We're coming for you, man.

B (48:37)

And essentially, so she goes on to talk about culture war issues and how you can't get a job if you're a Christian and how persecution is coming and how she prophesied that. I'm not going to play it. We hear this stuff all the time. But, yeah, I mean, that. That dichotomy between what she's telling a lot of her followers on the Internet, right? A woman who has a lot of power in her sphere of influence, that, hey, this was peaceful, we were declaring peace versus the reality of what happened on the ground, I just think is like. Like it's a wild thing to witness in real time.

A (49:05)

And to be clear, Tim edited that footage. She didn't. She didn't post that in her.

B (49:10)

Those are my clips that I put in there to prove the difference.

C (49:14)

Well, but this is. This is the reality that we are living in still today, right? That I think of January 6th as a kind of open wound in the American psyche that we can't heal, we can't move past it, because there are these two completely diverging narratives about what happened that day. And in the narrative of reality, the narrative of the mainstream media, of every congressional report, every lawsuit that occurred, it was this massively violent attempt to overturn an American election and to functionally dismantle American democracy.

B (49:55)

Right?

C (49:55)

But then Trump and Cindy Jacobs and the NAR and the participants have been wielding their own narrative, shaping and fashioning their own narrative of conspiracy theories about, well, it was really antifa or was really the FBI. It was an inside job or saying what was entirely justified. And somehow they can hold those together as completely contradictory. Right? And it was completely vindicated. And those people were righteous and good. And so this is the fracture in American society. And I would argue that January 6th never ended. We are still living through January 6th. The second trump administration is just the bureaucratic and institutional enactment of January 6 through after a valid election. They are still enshrining Trump as the king over America and saying whatever the voice of the people says. God has put him in office and he is the righteous leader over us.

D (50:51)

Wow.

B (50:53)

Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. April, do you have More comments on this topic before we move on a little bit more for January 6th.

A (51:01)

I think her being able to be at. Be there and then say with her full chest that it was peaceful shows just like, as Matthew was saying, the cognitive dissonance that people are constantly holding. It's a very black and white belief system. And you're taught in this world to not touch God's anointed. So you have, like, blind loyalty to your cause. And if you, if, like, if she were to call out, well, we condemn the violence, you know, or the people who are violent, you're basically calling out your own people, which is a big no. No, because that can hinder the testimony that hinders the witness, which is that, you know, Joe Biden was an illegitimate president and that God had installed Trump. So you are taught from a young age, if you're in this world, that you don't say anything if it makes your side look bad.

C (51:55)

Yes. Yeah. And that's the thing. They don't even think of it in those terms. Right. That I have a side. I have a perspective in American politics, and there's. There's another side full of human beings who inhabit different values and different principles and different. Have a different perspective on American politics, and we all have to live together. That is kind of the fundamental concept of pluralism and democracy. They are rejecting that to say, we are on the side of God, we speak for God, we do the work of God in American politics. And the other side, because they oppose us, must be on the side of the demons.

B (52:37)

Right, Right.

C (52:39)

And so, and so when you, when even leading into the 24 election, you could hear some of these NAR prophets saying things like, you can't even listen to the voices of the people on the left, the people who are in favor of Kamala Harris, because at this point, it's just the demons speaking through them. Yeah, Right. And so in their minds. Right. The other side is just lost in this demonic fugue state, and they can't see the truth that Trump won the 2020 election because they're inhabited by demons, and we have to cast the demons out, and then they will all join our side because. Right. Their epistemology, how they know, what they know is built around these prophecies, is built around the assumption that they are enacting the will of God on the earth.

A (53:24)

They literally demonize people.

C (53:28)

Literally. That's what literally means.

B (53:29)

Right, Right. And, you know, the reality is you don't negotiate with demons. Right. You don't. Demons aren't worthy. You can't redeem a demon by default. It's evil. And this is why April and I tell, and I say this a lot, like, you know, we oftentimes see good faith people, maybe like Gavin Newsom try and play footsies with people like Charlie Kirk on their podcast. And it's like, you don't understand folks like Charlie Kirk are in that world. Think, think that people like Gavin Newsom and the Democrats are literally evil people who are sacrificing children on the altar of child sacrifice via abortion. And so there's no wanting to get along with that perspective. Right. And I say that as someone who wants to work together with people who see things differently. I don't want to have to say that part out loud. But when you're influenced by Lance Wall now, who was at America Fest two years ago, who I met, right. Who's a big player in this space, and he speaks on the mainstay of America Fest, that is a turning point usa. Eventually. This is the ideology that is just oozing out of events like that that are caught by its adherence, frankly.

C (54:32)

Yeah. And this is the carve out they found. It's a loophole they found in Christian spirituality. Right. Because Christians are supposed to love everyone. Christians are supposed to love their enemies. Christians are supposed to see their fellow human beings as created in the image of God. Right. This is fundamental doctrine. This is not like kind of fringy liberal doctrine. Right.

B (54:53)

It's like 101. Right.

C (54:55)

This is just basic Christian belief. Right. But many Christians would say it's okay to hate demons because. Right. Demons are intrinsically evil. And if the other side is full of demons, well, we love those people. We just hate the demons inside them. And when we have exorcised the demons from the demon Kratz, when we've exorcised the demons from the Capitol, well, then everyone will recognize how right we are, how righteous we are, and then they'll all join our side. And so they never have to deal with other people's intellects, other people's ideas, other people's politics, because they can just categorize them in a blanket way as demonic. And then they can hate those people functionally. Yeah.

B (55:40)

Yeah, that's good.

D (55:44)

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion, and that's why the new Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenuevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show Notes thank you for standing with us.

A (56:56)

My name is Jaja, I'm from Waco, Texas, and I've been a listener of the TNE podcast for about a year.

C (57:03)

Now and have really appreciated the nuanced breakdown of current events, theology, and politics.

A (57:09)

That Tim and the TNE team provides.

C (57:13)

I am a donor and supporter of.

A (57:15)

Tani, not only because I hope to.

C (57:17)

See Yalls work expanded and the information.

A (57:21)

Further shared, but also because I am a listener who is probably, like many.

C (57:26)

Of the listeners, a person who has oftentimes become disillusioned by the Christian Church.

A (57:32)

In America and evangelicalism.

C (57:35)

And I have found a lot of.

A (57:37)

Encouragement and empathy from the work that TNA does, and I'm excited to be able to continue supporting.

B (57:51)

Okay, I know we're coming up to time in a few minutes here. I want to hit just one or two more things that we're going to wrap up, and we also have a weird Christian bleep to do briefly. I'm not going to play this whole clip, but I did want to bring up, just so people understand, that even among the crowd, among the rank and file, there was this kind of language happening. And I'm not the background to this clip is that this person on the screen claims to have watched someone just got shot and he's obviously shaken up by what just happened. And the man behind the screen who's recording this is a pastor and this is happening during all the chaos. And here's how this situation goes down.

C (58:23)

My name is Philip Brownlee.

B (58:25)

Philip, man, thank you for being a.

C (58:26)

Patriot and being in there.

A (58:28)

Dude.

C (58:29)

Yeah, praying for you, man. Okay, thank you. Can I pray for you? Is that okay? I'm a pastor. Can I pray for you, God.

B (58:35)

Lord, protect the soldier for you. This man that was brave, Father. Lord, I just declare right now this Lion Heart, that angels of God be protecting over him.

C (58:43)

Father. Lord, any trauma, any trauma from this event, Father, I just declare and decree right now it's all broken, that this.

B (58:49)

Man is secure and safe and held.

C (58:51)

In your hollow of your hand.

B (58:53)

Lord, thank you for his heart to.

C (58:54)

Serve his country and be a patriot. And we declare right now the blessings and favor of God on his life, on his family. Lord, we speak it. The mighty name of Jesus will protect him and guard him and strengthen him in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen. All glory and victory to God. Come on.

A (59:10)

Amen.

C (59:14)

Yeah, and that. That rioter, Philip Bromley, who witnessed the shooting of Ashley Babbitt, that's why he's, like, kind of distraught, is he actually was there firsthand and watched Ashley Babbitt get shot and die. And so he comes out and he's in this kind of state of trauma, and then this NAR pastor guy from the Midwest comes and prays over him and is using this language, right? You are a soldier of God. You are a Lion Heart. Right? And affirming that he has gone into the Capitol, affirming that he is doing the work of God inside the Capitol. I'll just as a side note, that video that was posted by the pastor was used as evidence against Philip Bromley in his own prosecution. And so he gets this, like, prayed over, but then that also becomes then part of the evidence for his prosecution. And he actually got convicted of going into the Capitol. Of course he's been pardoned now.

B (60:04)

Right?

C (60:04)

But yes, of course, the social media posts that some of these Christian leaders are doing from outside the Capitol was part of the evidentiary ruling against a lot of the people who were. It went inside.

B (60:15)

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I just have one more thing I want to bring up, and then we can wrap it up here. And this is a really important piece. And again, friends, April and I wanted to really hone in on the religious side of the insurrection that oftentimes goes really underreported or unnoticed. And it's really important to understand because as we just explained, you know, this network of the NAR and other groups, it goes deep, it goes big, and it's very militant in its beliefs. I want you, Matt, to explain briefly this image, this flag here with the tree, it says an appeal to Heaven. It's inverted right now. There were a lot of these flags flying around. This appeal to heaven flag during the insurrection. Critics say that this is just a typical flag that came out of early American history, and it's just used for patriots. But you argue that, no, there's a different meaning nowadays to this flag. Can you break it down for us?

C (61:10)

Yeah. So the flag does come from American history. It was flown during the American Revolution. It was flown over the Massachusetts Navy, actually commissioned by George Washington. And the phrase on it, an appeal to heaven. And it's got like, a green pine tree at the center. And then this appeal to heaven that comes from a treatise from the philosopher John Locke that was a slogan of the American Revolution, right? And the premise of the treatise is there are unjust governments. And as people make their appeals to tyrants and to unjust rulers, right, Like King George iii, at some point they stop making those appeals because they are never heard, and they make an appeal to heaven. In other words, we go to war and let God sort it out. And so this was a slogan of the American Revolution. And the flag was a kind of obscure piece of Americana from the Revolution going back that you could find history buffs or in textbooks, that sort of thing. In 2013, an NAR prophet and apostle named Dutch Sheets discovers this flag and believes that he receives a prophecy about this flag, that it is a symbol of a spiritual revolution that needs to take place in America. This is, again, the beginning of the second Obama administration. And Dutcheets hated Barack Obama, thought he was a Muslim, thought he was the epitome of evil. And he said, we need a new revolution to overthrow this liberal order in our society. And he starts campaigning to promote this flag as a symbol of spiritual warfare and prophecy and combat for America. And it becomes very, very popular, spreads through all the NAR networks, becomes attached to Donald Trump, right? He rolls out his own book in 2015 titled An Appeal to Heaven. And this becomes another part of this Stop the Steel symbolism, right? The appeal to heaven flag becomes core to this kind of Christian mobilization for January 6th. On January 6th, if you look at the footage, you can see dozens, maybe even hundreds of appeal to heaven flags in the crowds around the Capitol. And that that flag has become now a core symbol of the American far right. You can find neo Nazis flying the appeal to heaven flag. You can find it at all kinds of different big spiritual rallies and revivals around the capital. It also flies at a very prominent place outside of House Speaker Mike Johnson's office. Oh, it's given to me.

B (63:19)

You say that it's so. It's almost like I thought about that ahead of time, and I have a picture of that. Where is it? Here, let me pull it up. Yeah, there you go. There it is.

C (63:28)

And it was given to him by an NAR pastor. Mike Johnson is a Southern Baptist, but he's actually very, very close to a number of NAR leaders, hangs out with them. There's an NAR apostle who's in his district that he is very close to. And so no, this symbol. There was a count. Somebody went around the different congressional office buildings, I think it was in April of 25. And they counted at least a dozen congressional offices that have appeal to heaven flags flying outside them now. And of course, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito flew one outside of his summer home a couple summers ago as well.

A (64:02)

Yeah, great. Love that for us.

B (64:05)

Yeah, it is. I mean, it's just wild. You know, the same people who are.

C (64:10)

Or who are.

B (64:11)

Who are sounding the alarm around the militant threat of Islam because of Mamdani are the actual people who are trying to take over the country with like, their version of Christian theocracy in a lot of ways. Like, it's. And they plant their flags everywhere as signs of victory, you know, or they worship in the White House and they brag about it as a sign of victory. It's just, it's wild.

A (64:30)

There are so many things that go into this belief system beyond just believing that God chose Donald Trump. There's American exceptionalism, where you believe God chose, like, founded America as a Christian nation. There's this, the end times aspect of it all where they believe they can help usher in the return of Christ. There, there, like. Yes. Yeah. There are just so many layers that most people don't get. It's not, it's not as simple as, oh, these people are just crazy. There's, there is so much that's right indoctrination and group think and just. It's, it's, it's, it's. Can be very hard to break out of once you're inside of it. And also it gives everybody a purpose. You feel like you are living for something bigger than yourself. And beyond just the violence aspect, there's this whole martyr side where you almost want to be a martyr for God and that there's no greater way to die than to die because you were standing up for God. We're seeing that language kind of revive itself with the murder of Charlie Kirk. And it all cultivates into this strong movement where they, they genuinely believe that they can do anything as long as God is on their side.

B (65:48)

Completely.

C (65:48)

Yeah. And this is again, what it's very hard for People who have not experienced this world or been immersed in looks bizarre from the outside. It looks like, oh, these people are crazy. But no, these people are very savvy. They're very, very skilled at messaging and presenting themselves in the way that they want to present themselves. And they're true believers.

B (66:09)

Right, right.

C (66:10)

You don't show up at the Capitol praying prayers over a PA system and singing worship songs just because it's fun symbolism and you're kind of cosplaying like, no, they truly believe this stuff. And if anything, I think that makes it more dangerous than if they were cynical. If they were cynical, they could be kind of predictable.

A (66:28)

The worship they use, too. When you have chills because of music, because music is very powerful regardless of what you're singing about, it was constantly reinforced that whatever chills I was having in a worship set was God, and therefore it validated whatever message was being preached that day.

C (66:47)

That's right. Yes. And this is.

B (66:49)

Yeah.

C (66:49)

It's not just cerebral. Right. To be charismatic is to immerse yourself in a kind of experiential spirituality of Christianity that is presenting itself as miraculous. Right. And so when these people say, oh, well, yeah, well, maybe the news reports of this, but what I perceived in the Holy Spirit Right. When I was there that day was that it was really antifa. Right. It's a. It's an entirely different set of truth claims and epistemology that they're offering to people and saying your physical, bodily experiences verify spiritual realities always. And so you just need to tap into those spiritual realities. Yeah, 100%.

A (67:31)

We want to read a few super chats because we also have a weird Christian belief. If you'd like to stick around with us, Matthew, enjoy it.

B (67:38)

It'd be great. Yeah, yeah.

A (67:40)

It's a little. It's a little relatable, a little relevant.

B (67:43)

Friends, again, thanks so much for being here. The Tim April show does this. This is what we do. We try and expose Christian nationalism and try and help you know that you're not alone if you grew up in that world. And to non Christian folks or folks who do not grow up this way, we hope to educate you on what's going on behind the MAGA movement. Also, I want to say briefly, if you're looking for a place to call home when it comes to digital community, the New Evangelicals has tne Connect. It's an organization that I founded, the New Evangelicals, that's now run by Melinda Hale. We have a ton of free resources, including a community space away from the Eye of Meta. You can go to theneweevangelicals.com connect. You can sign up. It's totally free. It's a nonprofit organization, so everything we do has absolutely no cost to it. And T and E Connect has a social media feed. It has regional group chats. It has a book club that we do every season. It has tons of interviews with other guests that we do for lives. We do a Theology 101. It's a really great place to check out if you're looking for a place to call home and find a better path forward in your faith. Okay, let's read some super chats, do Christian bleep, and then we'll get out of here. So we got one from Russell Priest. Happy Epiphany Day. Sorry. Falls on January 6th. Such a contrast between Christ shown to the world and this day in 2020 Christian nationalism. I've never heard of Epiphany Day, but I'm sure Matthew has.

A (69:01)

My Methodist church talked about it on Sunday this week. It's about the three wise men.

C (69:06)

Yes. If you've heard of the 12 days of Christmas.

B (69:09)

Yes.

C (69:09)

Well, the 12 days are between Christmas and Epiphany. Right. So epiphany is the traditional feast of when the wise men, the magi, arrived to kind of pay honor to Jesus. Right. And give the gifts. And so the 12 days of Christmas are what stand between Christmas in January 6th and then there's certain traditions have the tradition of giving gifts on each of those days.

B (69:31)

Good to know. All right, cartoon 49. Have you seen the new Knives out movie, Wake Up Dead Man? I feel like it is one of the best representations of religion and faith I've seen in films. I have not seen it yet, but it's on my list.

A (69:42)

So I saw it. It was great.

B (69:44)

Okay, awesome.

C (69:45)

It's good.

B (69:45)

It's very good. Julia Markham, a banana, by the way, you know what that is? That is the emoji super sticker. Yeah, it's a super sticker translated through my program. And just.

A (69:56)

I love that it just says a banana.

B (70:00)

Okay, we got one from Deanna here. Been looking forward to this. Thank you guys for this keeping us sane. Matt, how can those of us in other fields fight back from our area of expertise? I'm a MD and I'm worried about this attack in science.

C (70:16)

Well, I'm sorry, but for medical doctors, it's very complicated to fight back. Right. Because you have certain kind of professional obligations and all I will say though, in relationship with people in your kind of non professional life, maybe it's really important to try to engage Christians who have kind of fallen down some of these wormholes and fallen into some of these propaganda chambers. Right. There are Christians who are so deep in conspiracy world, so deep in Christian maga, that they're not coming out anytime soon. Right. It's just. It's become. It's become a totalizing kind of narrative bubble for them.

B (71:01)

Yeah.

C (71:01)

There are other people, though, who kind of get drawn into this. I mean, like, think about, like, right, the Charlie Kirk assassination, Right? Many, many, many of the people who were offering these kind of hagiographical Charlie chirp, Kirk was a saint. Charlie Kirk was a martyr. Could not have picked him out of a lineup three months before that. Yeah, right, right. And so I think people don't know what they don't know. And a lot of Christians encounter this stuff, and people are quoting Bible verses and throwing out different kind of references and singing worship songs that they know, and they're like, oh, this is great. This is really empowering. This is really fun. I think we need to draw people's attention back, as April was saying at the top, to the gospel, to Jesus, to the teachings of Jesus, to the way that Jesus operated in the world. Jesus was not about finding coercive power over other people. Jesus could very easily have exercised coercive power over anyone he wanted to, but instead, he chose the way of the cross, the way of submission, the way of kindness and generosity and humanizing everyone around him. And I think the more that we can point people back to the teachings of Jesus and say, okay, sure, Cindy Jacobs has an interesting Hebrew Bible reference that she's using. What did Jesus say?

B (72:14)

Right. Yeah, it's good. All right, last super chat, then we'll get to weird Christian bleep from Joseph Compton. They've lost the plot. Our role as Christians is to spread the good news that Christ died for our sins. It is not to take over the government. Well said.

A (72:27)

Amen.

B (72:27)

All right, let's do it. Weird Christian, Christian belief.

A (72:30)

Here begins we Christian.

B (72:36)

Beep. I love that. Okay.

A (72:39)

Hank Cunningham, you know this guy?

C (72:41)

You know?

B (72:42)

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I'll just let this. Is he a prophet or is he an apostle?

C (72:47)

He is. He is considered a prophet. He's not an nar prophet. He's a, like, prosperity gospel prophet.

B (72:53)

Well, Hank has a timely word for all of us out there regarding some current events. Let's hear what he has to say.

C (72:59)

They say you have ceased Venezuela for the oil.

B (73:04)

This is him prophesying.

C (73:06)

This is true. That there is that which has been brought to the forefront of this earthly battle. But the enemy has sought and was seeking to bring war and to bring conflict through Venezuela and to control the oil of the earth.

B (73:32)

But the spiritual oil and the natural.

C (73:35)

Oil does not belong to the forces of darkness or to those who thought that they could bring a one world order. This is my reset. And the oil of the natural and the oil of the spirit is mine, says the Lord.

B (73:54)

There you go.

A (73:56)

Can you rewind it? I want to hear him say spiritual oil, because I swear he combined it and just says spiritual oil.

B (74:03)

I think it's around here. Let's see.

C (74:07)

But the spiritual oil and the natural oil.

B (74:12)

Spiritual oil. Yeah.

A (74:15)

But also, why is his collar so tall?

B (74:18)

He looks like a villain out of Transylvania.

A (74:22)

Yeah.

C (74:22)

Like who meets the Sopranos?

B (74:26)

He just looks like, Like. Like a mobster, but, like, could be in some timepiece about Dracula.

C (74:32)

I don't know.

B (74:33)

He has the red flames behind him.

A (74:35)

Christian nationalism, but make it vampire.

C (74:38)

But if. If you believe this. Yeah. Right. I think you can start to see why the propaganda is so powerful.

B (74:46)

Yeah, Right.

C (74:46)

Because. And oftentimes kind of more normal evangelicals or other Christians will look at this and say, well, where are they getting this from? The Bible? They're not getting it from the Bible.

B (74:54)

Right.

C (74:54)

They're getting it from prophecy, from contemporary modern prophecy that is kind of doing this kind of pastiche, like throwing a couple Bible phrases in with Venezuela and then tying it all together to say, and here's the message of the prophecy every time. Donald Trump is right. Donald Trump is righteous. Donald Trump is doing God's will. It might look bad. It might look like he's violating democracy. It might look like he's violating the sovereignty of other nations. It might look like he's doing this for greedy motives to take the oil, but that's because God has ordained it.

B (75:27)

Right.

C (75:27)

And this is the propaganda that is driving our nation mad. Is Christian theology and Christian prophecy framing Trump as a divinely ordained figure?

B (75:38)

Yeah. Also, last thought. It's wild to hear Hank talk about the. The evil one world order while the American government talks about taking over nations. Like, we're talking about Greenland now we're talking about maybe Cuba, you know, Venezuela. Well, it's like, that sounds like a one world order to me. Just sounds like that's what's happening. You know, we want to take over all these different countries and just rule them. It's interesting to hear him say that's a bad thing while advocating for that kind of expansion, if that makes sense.

C (76:07)

But See, and this is the other part of it, too. It's not just Trump for them. It's Bolsonaro in Brazil. It's Melee, right? It's Orban in Hungary, probably, or Bonn in Hungary. It's Putin. They are looking around at these different Christian dictators around the world in Latin America and saying those people are also ordained by God. These far right leaders who will ally themselves with Christian nationalists are also ordained by God to play these roles. So it's not a one world order. It's a coalition of fascists around the world who are doing the bidding of God.

A (76:45)

I just have to say, it is so impressive to me how they can turn anything into a sermon illustration like Venezuelan oil to spiritual oil, I don't know. Did y' all see that Franklin Graham Facebook post he made a few weeks ago about the Epstein files? And I swear to God, this man said God has a file on each one of us. And basically, who are we to judge and what. And God's files are far worse than the Epstein steam files.

B (77:20)

What? Yeah, I think I pulled it up here. Is this it?

A (77:23)

Did we ever read that?

B (77:24)

It's so. It's so long. Do you have time? April? I know that you got to go, but I'll pull it up. I mean, we can read it briefly.

A (77:30)

Well, I just want to read that one line where he's like.

B (77:32)

It's like a novel out of all.

A (77:34)

The things like the Epstein files contain some of the worst of the worst of the worst of humanity. And Franklin Graham.

B (77:41)

See this?

A (77:41)

God has a file on each.

B (77:43)

Can you see this?

C (77:44)

Yep.

B (77:45)

Look how long this thing is.

A (77:47)

Yeah, here he goes. He talks about the Epstein files. Damaging information about President Trump, connection to Jeffrey Epstein, who pleaded guilty to sex crimes and later dead in prison. They may find this inquiry to be a double edged sword because there are likely many people not currently on their radar whose sins may come to light. Here's it.

B (78:05)

Please.

A (78:05)

Did you know that God has a file on each one of us? The Epstein files are nothing compared to God's files. His file on us goes much deeper than just what we've said or done. He knows our thoughts, desires, and motives. And then a bunch of Jesus y stuff. I'm so sorry, Franklin. I don't know what is in your files, but my files don't even kind of come close to the Epstein files.

B (78:31)

I can be a moral elitist. I don't know what's an iliac, right? Not trying to be prideful, but I can say safely say what's in the Epstein files is way worse than whatever's in my life file, I guarantee.

A (78:43)

Speak for yourself, Franklin.

C (78:46)

But it sounds theologically plausible.

B (78:49)

Yes.

C (78:50)

And that's what these folks are going for, right?

B (78:52)

Yeah.

C (78:52)

Plausibility, they're saying. You want to believe this already about Trump? Well, here's a quasi theological argument that will vindicate the position that you want to hold.

B (79:05)

Yeah, it's well done. Well, listen, Matthew, I appreciate you and so does April for coming on the show and hanging out with us. I mean, we'll have to have you back. It's so great to have someone kind of decode this stuff on a deeper level beyond our just funny commentary and sometimes factual data behind it. But if people want to find your work or read your books, can you go ahead and promote all of your stuff one more time?

C (79:26)

Yeah. So I'm on Substack. You can find me there. I'm also on Twitter and Blue sky and the Socials. Matthew D. Taylor. Just search for it, you'll find it. And I have a new book coming out in October. The title of the book is Defying Following Jesus in a World of Christian Antichrists. And that comes out in October through Broadleaf Books.

B (79:46)

Humble brag. I've been reading it early. It is so good. So I cannot wait till it comes out. Yeah. Especially for right now. It's so helpful for Christians trying to find that better path forward. It is so good. So job well done. Thank you.

C (80:03)

I appreciate your feedback on it, too.

B (80:04)

You're welcome. We did it, April. Another showdown.

A (80:09)

We'll be back in two days.

B (80:11)

We'll see you on Thursday.

A (80:12)

We don't bomb another country before then, but I need a knock on wood because I have no idea what's happening in this world.

B (80:17)

Maybe we can warn the spirit for that not to happen. I don't know.

A (80:21)

I mean, I know all the prayers. I can just dish it right back.

B (80:24)

Whatever it takes. So. All right, friends. Well, hey, thanks again for being here. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to like this video. Subscribe to the channel. Thanks to everyone watching on Substack. We'll be back here live on Thursday, 12 o' clock Eastern. I'm Tim Whitaker.

A (80:36)

I'm April Ajoy. Thank you, Matthew Taylor, for being here.

C (80:39)

Thank you.

A (80:40)

Bye. Bye.

B (80:51)

Sam.