79. Debunking Allie Beth Stuckey's ICE Propaganda

Summary

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The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)

Episode 79: Debunking Allie Beth Stuckey's ICE Propaganda
Date: January 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In Episode 79, Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy critically analyze right-wing commentator Allie Beth Stuckey's monologue on the recent shooting of anti-ICE activist Renee Nicole Good by an ICE agent in Minneapolis. The hosts dissect Stuckey’s narrative, contextualize the broader issues of Christian Nationalism, ICE’s tactics, and the misuse of faith to justify injustice, while also offering facts, empathy, and practical resources for listeners navigating faith, politics, and culture.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

• The Power of Narrative & Propaganda
  How right-wing Christian Nationalist voices—specifically Allie Beth Stuckey—shape narratives around ICE, immigration, and protest, spinning or dismissing video evidence and encouraging followers to distrust mainstream accounts.

• Debunking the ICE Shooting Narrative
  A deep dive into what transpired in Minneapolis, using video evidence and fact-checking to separate truth from manufactured right-wing outrage, and calling out the immoral empathy gap promoted by Stuckey.

• Faith and Moral Responsibility
  Challenging the misuse of Christianity to support violence and oppression, countering with the teachings of Jesus about loving neighbors and the marginalized.

• Projection and Double Standards
  Exposing how right-wing commentators project their tactics onto progressives and wield collective punishment and selective empathy to uphold harmful ideologies.

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Episode Breakdown

Setting the Stage: Why This Matters

[00:30–05:10]

• Context: Tim and April regularly take apart Christian Nationalist media to help audiences “understand the world of Christian nationalism, how it’s affecting our neighbors.”
• Current Events: Heartfelt concern expressed for Iranian and Palestinian people and commentary on overwhelming world crises, tied to the Steve Bannon quote:
  “Flood the zone with crap.” — Tim [05:09]
• Motive for the Episode: A focus on “debunking what they’re saying so you can know that you’re not crazy. You DID see what you saw.” — April [03:42]

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Who Is Allie Beth Stuckey?

[06:32–09:22]

• Stuckey is described as a right-wing commentator popular with “white evangelical suburbia mom[s]” and a skilled communicator engaging in palatable racism and xenophobia.
• Background shared: Tim debated her on Jubilee, and April was preemptively blocked by Stuckey.
• Why Respond to Her:
  “She has a huge following...her videos are used by everyday people...to go after the left or progressives.” — April [08:15]
• Stuckey’s book “Toxic Empathy” is highlighted.
• “She does a lot of damage… She is one of the biggest influences of Christian nationalists in this country.” — April [09:06]

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Breaking Down the Propaganda

[09:58–22:14]

Stuckey's Version of Events

• Stuckey frames Renee as an “anti-ICE activist” who allegedly drove into the ICE agent, using loaded and dismissive language.
• She constructs a caricature of progressive reaction by narrating what she claims “your progressive mother-in-law, your progressive uncle… are hearing.”
• Hosts’ Rebuttal:
  • April & Tim call out the misrepresentation:
    “There’s no proof the vehicle hit him...no proof that vehicle actually touched him.” — April [10:17, 10:54]
  • Tim highlights classic right-wing tactics:
    “The audience is primed to disbelieve video evidence and then have it interpreted to them by people in authority.” [02:20]

Receipts: The Actual Atrocities

[14:05–15:44]

• Tim plays real news clips:
  • ICE arresting people based on their accent.
  • Children crying for their deported parents and ICE using a 5-year-old as bait.
• “It is not hyperbolic to say that ICE is terrorizing families, including children.” — April [15:26]

Parallels to History

[16:40–18:07]

• Tim & April acknowledge valid parallels with pre-Holocaust Germany (not the Holocaust itself), echoing historian Jamar Tisby's phrase:
  “History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.” — Tim [16:55]
• “As a queer woman, [Renee] felt fidelity to everyone who fell outside of the norm...wanted to do her part to stop [the harm].” — paraphrased from Tim [18:07]

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Dissecting Stuckey’s Emotional Framing

[20:36–24:36]

• Stuckey’s monologue ends with pathos: the tragedy of Renee for her son, framing her as a martyr and progressive “victim.”
• April retorts: “We don’t need someone to tell us ICE murdered Renee Goode. I watched the video from every angle.” [22:25]
• Stuckey conveniently omits that Renee was a Christian and the ICE agent’s callous remarks after the shooting.
  “She was just standing up for what her faith taught her to.” — April [23:58]
• “So much of what MAGA commentators do is project...she is projecting onto progressives what she force feeds into her own audience.” — April [24:39]

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Gatekeeping, Projection, and Double Standards

[24:58–29:16]

• Tim explains how conservative audiences are taught to only trust approved narratives.
• Stuckey explicitly says: “If you believed everything I just said...you would be outraged—but that's not the point. It's not about facts, it's about a larger narrative...proving Trump is bad.”
• Tim & April point out the projection:
  “We do not have to prove Trump is bad. Just listen to Trump talk.” — April [27:11]
• The hypocrisy of claiming moral authority while supporting a serially discredited, morally bankrupt leader.

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ICE Enforcement: Facts, Fiction, and Harm

[36:36–44:46]

• Stuckey jumps to the claim that all progressive outrage = “Open borders” and lawlessness.
  “We’re not binary thinkers...we could hold space for both.” — Tim [37:06]
• April: “I don't know a single person that's arguing to get rid of borders and just let everybody in.”
• Fact-check:
  “65% of people taken by ICE had no convictions. 93% no violent convictions.” (Cato Institute, per Tim [39:55])
• Tim plays clips: ICE racially profiling target workers, detaining U.S. citizens, then dropping them at random locations.
• “Ali is a bold-faced liar...ICE is not protecting communities. They're only making them worse.” — Tim [43:17]

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Christian Nationalism and Toxic Empathy

[45:36–53:11]

• April theorizes about collective punishment and theology:
  “...theology trickles out into policy.”
• Tim asserts that the real driver is “pure xenophobia and racism,” noting right-wing would never apply collective guilt to white shooters or MAGA insurrectionists.
• Stuckey’s toxic empathy is extended to ICE agent Ross, never to the victims:
  “She has...toxic empathy for ICE.” — April [39:59]
• April: “They voted for a rapist... and said ‘Give us Barabbas. I will take power over my integrity.’” [30:46]
• “It's the modern version of ‘what were they thinking?’” — Tim on how history will view this era [32:16]

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The Christian Response: What Would Jesus Do?

[55:36–59:39]

• April: “It’s wild they can claim to follow Jesus, who said ‘I was a stranger and you did not welcome me…’”
• Tim: “...they have the gall to claim that not only are they Christians, they are the true Christians. Anyone outside...is just heretical or Marxist or woke.”
• Discussing the Good Samaritan story as directly counter to Christian Nationalist empathy.
• Notable moment:
  “Jesus put no fine print when he said ‘love thy neighbor.’” — April [57:58]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We thought it might be helpful to debunk what they’re saying so you know you’re not crazy. You DID see what you saw.” — April [04:00]
• “This person has millions of followers. If they respond to us, they’re platforming us.” — Tim [09:22]
• “Ali is correct when she says that people are being arrested because of what they sound like.” — Tim [13:22]
• “There’s literally nothing in it for your Christian friends to be hounding you to become a Christian...” — [Relatable video segment, 61:11]
• “We all know...‘rules for thee and not for me.’ We have borders that we can enforce, but we have no problem invading the borders of other countries if it serves our national interests.” — Tim [56:21]
• “Anyone outside of MAGA at all, they’ve lost any ground that they had by who they support.” — April [31:52]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:30–05:10 — Introduction and Episode Framing
• 09:58–22:14 — Play-by-play of Stuckey’s monologue and hosts’ real-time fact-check, including audio evidence of ICE abuses
• 22:14–24:36 — In-depth discussion on Stuckey’s framing and what's omitted
• 27:06 — “Importance of facts and data” (hosts' critique of selective fact-claiming)
• 36:36–44:46 — ICE’s real-world conduct and debunking “open borders” straw man
• 53:03 — Instagram-worthy rant by April: “They knew who he was and they said, ‘give us Barabbas…’”
• 55:36–59:39 — “What Would Jesus Do?” — discussing biblical response to ‘the stranger’

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Conclusion & Tone

Throughout, Tim and April maintain a conversational, often exasperated but compassionate tone—punctuated by biting sarcasm and heartfelt conviction. They oscillate between sharp analysis, personal anecdotes, and vulnerability about the grief and gaslighting experienced by progressives and Christians seeking empathy, justice, and truth.

They close by underscoring the path forward: remaining rooted in the radical call of Jesus to love and advocate for the marginalized, and not succumbing to propaganda or despair.

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Final Quote

“Jesus put no fine print when he said, ‘love thy neighbor.’”
— April [57:58]

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For access to the community or more resources, visit: thenewEevangelicals.com/connect

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Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I am April Lajoy.

[B]

I am Tim Whitaker. Here we are another live.

[C]

Here we are.

[B]

Another day in paradise, baby. Yeah. Hi April. Hi everyone. Geez. Well, we are live on YouTube, so please make sure to like this video. And we are also live on Substack. Hello to everyone on Substack. We have a pretty. This is kind of a slightly different vibe. April, you and I do this kind of content on Tuesdays usually where we will watch a video by a Christian nationalist, kind of unpack it so people understand what's going on. But when I saw this video, I said, you know, this might be a really good one for the live because a lot is happening in the world for sure, but our lane really is Christian nationalism. And helping people understand the world of Christian nationalism, how it's affecting our neighbors. And so this video that we're going to, you know, go through in a few minutes here I think will be really helpful for people to understand how right wing Christian nationalists pundits are spinning. Are interpreting. I'm not sure I'm trying to be generous here, but lying. I don't know about what actually happened in Minneapolis.

[A]

Yeah, I mean I, I'm sure you've seen Facebook posts online, but it's been, it's been pretty disheartening. I mean, not surprising because I've seen disheartening and upsetting post by fellow Christians that I know for the last decade. But it, this one I think is particularly infuriating because there is clear video like we all saw the video of what happened and to see people justify it as if Renee Good deserved what she got, especially from Christians who are supposed to not just love our neighbors, but love our enemies.

[B]

Yeah, is.

[A]

It's just weird. It's so, it seems so obvious.

[B]

It is interesting. I think what's interesting to me is hearing people be like, you know, the mainstream media, the liberals, they're not telling you all the facts. I'm like, dude. We played a three minute video from the New York Times analyzing all of the available cell phone footage from multiple angles, going through it frame by frame, showing what was happening, that Renee had the steering wheel turned. She, she was heading to the right. This agent put himself in front of the vehicle and then moved his body over to the left. Two of the bullets went through the driver's side window. Like there's all this evidence of what actually happened. And the people who are in this world are like, no, don't believe that they're pushing a narrative, but we're giving you the hard truth. And that is what is. That is very common in white evangelicalism. This is the same group that will tell you, do not believe evolution. The world was made in six literal days. Do not believe in things like therapy. You just have a demonic spirit over you. So they. The audience is primed to disbelieve what is right in front of them. They are primed to disbelieve video evidence and then to interpret and then have it interpreted to them by people in authority. That's kind of like the same. Some of the logic here of how this. How this space works.

[A]

Yes. And we're going to get into all of that. I do just want to, before we move on to our main story, because. Because as Tim said, this is going to be a more focused story, because I do think. I know my mom has had interactions with her friends online, and I. She's been feeling kind of ga. I feel like we all, in a way, are feeling gaslit, like we know what we saw, but. But they're so confidently loud and wrong and. And condescending. I don't know. It. We just thought it could be helpful to debunk what they're saying so you can know that you're not crazy. You did see what you saw.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But I do want to mention that what's happening in Iran, too, there's. There's just a lot of scary things that are happening in the world. Terrible things. Our heart goes out to the Iranian people that are standing up to the regime over there. Obviously, Gaza is still struggling. The Epstein files there. There's a lot of stuff still happening with that online. And. Yeah. And then obviously, Venezuela, a country that we invaded. And now. And of course, Trump's talking about wanting to invade Greenland. So we. We are aware there is the whole world going on.

[B]

The whole world.

[A]

Like, I know it's like, it's almost so overwhelming that you don't even know where for sure to begin. And I do think that's kind of part of the design.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Steve Bannon famously said, flood the zone with crap. He used a different word. But, you know, like, this is a very common tactic of authoritarian regimes. They want to flood media. They want to. They want to be able to use media however they can. I mean, I'm sure you've seen the. The CBS headline that. That this ICE agent apparently had internal bleeding to anonymous sources. It's like, I don't know, guys. Feels kind of sus, especially considering that CBS killed a story about ice on 60 minutes. Right? So, like, this is all part of the strategy, right? If you can, if you can control the airwaves, if you can control the narrative, you control reality, even if it's not true. And I think that's why, April, you and I are so resolute to be like crystal clear and also bring the receipts of things that we say. Obviously, we're not perfect. We're going to get things wrong at times and we're going to do our best to correct those things. But in the age of propaganda, it's so important that we are clear eyed and that we tell the truth, the reality of what is actually happening. Because I think for too long people just kind of go, well, both sides, you know, both sides, you know, it's like, guys, I, I understand no political party is perfect. Certainly there are issues.

[D]

But.

[B]

But this is, this is not a both sides era that we are dealing with right now. Like, not even close. And it's important for us to respond to it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

So today, are you cool if we kind of move into the main story? April, you good? Cool. So today we're going to be talking about Ali Stuckey. Now, I. Well, both of us have kind of a history with this person. I debated by her. Oh, you are? Congratulations.

[A]

She blocked me before I even knew who she was, like years ago.

[B]

Nice preemptive blocking. Solid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For, for those of you maybe new to the channel or, or new to this world. Stuckey is a right wing political commentator, but is also very much conservative, evangelical fundamentalist. And she's done a really good job kind of carving out these, this niche for herself where she really reaches, I would say, mostly the white evangelical suburbia mom. And she is, I mean, she knows how to communicate her points in very palatable ways, even if what she's feeding people is, is racist and xenophobic and by the way, not built on truth. But I debated her on Jubilee. I went unsurrounded and talked to her. And that was my experience. I did, I did. Not to brag, but I would never do it again. I didn't. Did I tell you that I got invited to go back on and I said no?

[A]

Yeah, you did.

[B]

It wasn't for me anyway. So, you know, Ally has been all over the situation, pushing things that are just not true. And she clipped this little monologue of her talking about Minneapolis and Renee and what her audience might hear from their progressive mothers. And siblings and friends. And I think, I think this is really worth going through and just letting you hear how they're talking about this.

[A]

And I, I want to point out too, I've, I've seen some pushback because I've talked about her on my channel before. We've obviously talked about her before and I've seen some people been like, why would you platform this woman? Because she's terrible. And I, I will tell you why. I personally, she, she has a huge following and she, There are a lot of people like everyday people that will use her, her videos and what she says in the comments section on social media to debunk more progressive Chris or, you know, to, to go after the, the left or progressives or whatever. And so I think it's good to. That we are calling her out specifically because she is one of the leaders of this movement. She has this book that she wrote called Toxic Empathy. She's one of the main voices that has MAGA condemned like calling empathy a sin now. And she does a he a lot of damage. I don't believe she calls herself a Christian nationalist, but she is one of the biggest influences of Christian nationalists, Christian nationalism in this country.

[B]

And completely.

[A]

She's gonna. I'm not trying to be like dramatic, but she, she has blood on your, her hands. In my opinion, from what she pushes.

[B]

I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm not really one of these. You know, by, by responding to this, we're platforming someone. This person has millions of followers. If anything, if they respond to us, they're platforming us. I mean, they have the bigger audience, but no, it's important to respond to this stuff. This is what we do on the show and so we're going to go through it. We will try our best to, to not pause every couple seconds, but there are a lot of points that we need to respond to. So if we're all ready, let's get started. Here we go. This is her talking on her show Relatable. It's a little monologue, her talking about Renee and how your progressive family might be hearing or thinking about the situation.

[C]

The anti ICE activist identified as Renee Nicole Good, was shot and killed by an ICE agent after she allegedly purposely. While it's. It's not really allegedly whether she drove her car into him on Wednesday, but some people are saying purposely drove.

[B]

I, I know I didn't want to do it, but I'm glad that you said that.

[A]

There's no proof that she hit him with her car. They are claiming internal bleeding. Just FYI, it is technically internal bleeding if you get a bruise. Now, he might have been bumped, but there's literally no I, I, it's just, it's, it's just not true.

[B]

She's turning her wheel away. She is not angry. She's not escalating the situation. He puts himself in front of the vehicle. He is recording while drawing his gun. Who does that? And he's out of the way. He is out of the way. Like we have evidence of this all over the place.

[A]

We all watched him walk away completely fine.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I would just say I don't think you could prove whether that vehicle hit him or not. But through every angle that experts have saw that we have seen, there is no proof that that vehicle actually touched him.

[B]

And also hear the earlier framing anti ICE activists, Right? This is, this is to feed the narrative of, oh yeah, you know, those paid, those paid agitators, those, those crazy liberals who just sit in their house doing nothing all day by protest. I mean, listen, by all these standards, we're all anti ICE activists. Like, you know, it's, it's a poor framing to begin with, but it's very intentional.

[A]

And as she's going to be telling her audience, this is what your progressive friends are being told. We're now telling our audience, this is what your MAGA friends are being told in this video.

[B]

Here we go.

[C]

Her car into him on Wednesday, January 7, leading to protests nationwide as lawmakers and officials argue over who should be held responsible for this fatal shooting. So let me tell you the perspective of this story that your progressive friends, your progressive mother in law, your progressive uncle, the progressive people in your church are hearing to help you understand why they think the way they do and why they've had the reaction that they are having. Renee Goode woke up on Wednesday, January 7, indignant. The immigrant community in Minneapolis had been demonized for weeks. She had watched it and now ICE was involved. Ice. She had heard stories about them kidnapping children, separating families, arresting people just because of their skin color or the sound of their last name.

[B]

Okay, we should just pause here because what she just said so far is true. It's true.

[A]

That was happening.

[B]

It's, I have a video here and by the way, some of these videos have cursing in them. So if you have young ones in the car, maybe just fast forward. But like we have evidence of this, here's a video of, I, I, I'll let it play. And you just, you, you, you just make the determination if ICE is arresting people based on what they sound like or their last name sounds like, you are required to. Where you face. Look, sir, you going to do this the easy way or are we going to take you in? You cannot take me in private. You just have documentation. I do copyright documentation. You present it to me. Why you asking me for my paperwork? Because of your accent. I assume you have an accent to. Where were you born, sir? Where were you born at? Put your hands behind your. I mean, yeah, Ally, right? You are correct. Ally is correct when she says that people are being arrested because of what they sound like. And I also have footage because she mentioned children. Right. Being separated from their families. We also have evidence of this. And again, this is. Look, I don't say, I don't play this stuff for clickbait or for rage bait. This is reality and it breaks my heart to play this stuff. But this is a little girl talking about how her mom is no longer here while she's wailing.

[A]

I don't want my dad.

[B]

She wants her dad.

[A]

The Hispanic people not doing nothing bad. They're not. Can you do nothing but please open the door for. The parents are stuck over there in jail.

[B]

Okay, we have that. We have one more clip I wanted to play of a five year old who was held by agents to get the father to come out and surrender. Here's the story on that.

[E]

A Lemonster family saying that ICE agents held their five year old daughter outside their home to get her father to surrender. So in this video of the incident obtained by Telemundo, the mother can be heard demanding her daughter's return. And they tell us Edward Hipp, who was from Guatemala, had lived in the US for 22 years. On Tuesday, he was driving home with his daughter when he thought he was being followed. They say he made it inside the home while agents grabbed the little girl. And at some point Leominster police arrived and returned the child to the family. However, two days later, the family says federal agents returned to that house and arrested Hip.

[B]

There you go. Okay, so, yeah, I mean, so far in her narrative. Yes. And of course we all know that thanks to people like what's his name, the 23 year old YouTuber Nick. Oh, God, yeah. Like the Somali immigrants. Yeah, Nick's Jolly. Somali immigrants have been demonized in Minnesota. Yes, so far. Ali, you are correct. Is that fair?

[A]

And I want to also say it's not just been in the last few weeks that ICE has been terrorizing. Like we've talked about it on and off for the Last year, they've zip tied children in the middle of the night. Like it is not hyperbolic to say that ICE is terrorizing families, including children.

[B]

Yes. So, so far, Ally, you are correct. Keep going.

[C]

She watched a video after video on Tik Tok of crying mothers and their babies. And now the same thing was happening to vulnerable people who lived right next to her. And so she had to do something about it. Her online activist friends and Facebook groups on Instagram all agreed that America today is just like 1930s Germany. They all concurred that what's happening to immigrants and refugees now is no different than what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust. And now is the moment they felt to prove that they would have been on the right side. History repeats itself. But the failures of the cowards of the past would not be repeated in them. They promised each other that. They promised themselves that they would be the ones to stand up for the weak, to be a voice for the voiceless, and resist this fascistic takeover spearheaded by Donald Trump and his ilk.

[B]

I just want to say, so far, I largely agree. I, I, I'm not aware of anyone who says that what's happening now is the exact same thing as what happened to the Jews in the Holocaust. But as Jamar Tisby, our good friend of the show, says, history doesn't repeat itself. It often rhymes. And the reality is that we have a federal agency going door to door, invading homes, ripping children from their parents, demanding to see people's papers with, who are not committing any crime, who are not in the, who have no reason to be stopped, and they're doing it with, with, with complete immunity. So yes, Ali, so far, if that's the narrative that, that you're hearing from your progressive friends, factually true, in my.

[A]

Opinion, and from historians too. They have been making the parallels not to when the Holocaust started, but the years leading up to it. And like people are taking a stand because they don't want it to turn into how bad it got.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

The drumbeat of tyranny beats louder and louder, but the cries of justice won't be drowned out, not by this petty, racist dictator. If evil is to be stopped, good men and women must do something. Renee knew this. She had been involved in protests before. As a queer woman, she felt fidelity to everyone who fell outside of the nor the CIS hetero white patriarchy. And she felt obligated to lend her influence to the cause of equality.

[B]

It just sounds like so far, Renee sounds like a decent human being who saw what's happening to her neighbors and wanted. Wanted to do her part to stop that from happening. I mean, don't we applaud people and other tyrannical regimes for. For getting in the way, for being a cog in a. A spoke or driving a stick through the spoke of the machine? This is Diedrich Bonhoeffer, by the way. Diedrich Bonhoeffer said the same thing. So, again, I'm failing to see why Ally thinks this is some slam dunk narrative that, like, is just so crazy. Because so far I agree with her. I agree. I agree. That's why.

[A]

Can I just say too, like, this is a side point, but it kind of pisses me off how she's acting like she knew Renee totally. And what Renee thought, like, it's just so. I don't even know what the word is. Her just talking is annoying.

[B]

I mean, Renee. Renee has a son. She was married to a man before. Clearly, it's not as. As, you know, as Ali's painting it to be. Right. Because she doesn't even know Renee. All these assumptions are loaded in. Great point.

[C]

She was a mother, a wife, a fierce defender of progress for the sake of her children and her country. And as she watched Trump take office and double down on his totalitarian Christian nationalist plan to oppress immigrants.

[D]

Yep.

[C]

And women and LGBTQ people her age grew.

[B]

All facts. And every single thing she just said is factual. Product 2025 does this right. We all know that for. For a fact. We know that right now, especially in Ali's right wing circles, repealing the 19th amendment is like the next big thing. Like.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And this week just are heard arguments for trans kids in sports.

[B]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

[F]

Go ahead.

[A]

No, I was just saying they've already rolled back a ton of rights for LGBTQ people.

[B]

Right, Right. Again, she's saying things that are rooted in data, like evidence. Yes, you're right, Ali.

[C]

And it grew. And her resolve to do something, anything to stop his takeover, it just overcame her. And so on Wednesday, January 7, Renee and her partner drove to Minneapolis. And the plan was to peacefully use vehicles and their voices to make it more difficult for ICE to kidnap these migrants. That's what the heroes would have done in Nazi Germany. That's what she had to do now.

[B]

Agreed.

[C]

And at the end of the day, Renee had done her part. She had peacefully protested. She had stood up for the most vulnerable, and she was ready to drive home. But before she could go, two ICE officers got out of their car and they started barking orders. She was confused she didn't know what to do. One of them was filming her. She told the officer she wasn't mad at him. Her wife was standing outside the car telling him to go away. She just wanted to leave. She wasn't sure what to do. And so she panicked. She. She turned her wheel. She wanted to get away. She stepped on the gas. She saw him pull out of. What is that? Surely he's not gone. Three shots to the head. The car, still in drive, careened into a telephone pole. Photos of the inside of her car, a Honda Pilot, show a glove compartment full of stuffed animals, no doubt the prized possessions of her son, who's just in kindergarten. He came home from school that day to learn that he'll never see, never hear, never hug his mother again. This is law enforcement in this country. This is where we are with immigration enforcement. This is Trump's America. How could any Christian, any person, be okay with this? This is the perspective that your liberal mother in law, your liberal uncle and aunt and friend are all reading right now. This is the only angle they've read or heard or considered.

[A]

Can I pause? Pause. Jeez, it's gonna be hard to get through this.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Without cursing.

[B]

I'm with you.

[A]

Her entire framing of this so far, and we haven't even probably got to the more infuriating stuff. I have not seen the rest of what she's about to say, I can imagine, but it is disingenuous to be like, this is what liberal people are reading. We. I don't need somebody to tell me that ICE is terrorizing children or families. Like, I've seen it with my own eyes. I don't need anyone to tell me. I don't need to read that ICE murdered Renee Goode. I watched the video from every angle.

[B]

Right. Like, I there literally in the video that Ali played, you can see Renee's hand waving on the vehicle. She obviously stopped. She was pulling out, getting ready to leave. She stopped because cars were coming. ICE agents. One went through. She waved on the second one. ICE agents approached her vehicle. They instigated the whole. The whole stop. She was not mad. That ICE agent drew his gun as she was the one turning the wheel to the right all the way to get away it. I don't need commentary on that, Ally. Like, my eyeballs can tell me what I've just seen. Obviously. It's kind of crazy because Ali can make a great progressive commentator. I mean, I'm like, yep, I'm sold. Compelling narrative, Ally. Compelling. You told the truth. She literally tells the Truth in what she just said.

[A]

There was one piece of truth, though, that she left out of her.

[F]

What's that?

[A]

What's that weird little story there? Renee was a Christian.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

She didn't say. And she was just standing up for what her faith taught her to. She just conveniently left that part out.

[B]

You know what other part she left out? When the ICE agent calls her an effing B word as she careens into a telephone pole head on, somehow that just escapes the narrative, you know, because, well, this is, you know, I, I can't tell all the facts. I have to leave selected parts out that might make my side look bad. So I'm not going to mention that part that this agent said that about Renee, walked away, told someone else to call 91 1, and then left the crime scene of the woman that he just shot at point blank range three times in the face.

[A]

I.

[C]

I.

[A]

So much of what MAGA commentators do is project. She's insinuating that all progressive people are taking this side because we've been told to take this side because we don't think for ourselves. We're just reading what everybody says and regurgitating talking points.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

But that is literally what MAGA does. All what they do, like, it's projection. She is projecting onto progressive people what she force feeds into her own audience. She tells them, you have to think this way because this is what we're supposed to think. Because this is the side that's going to protect the right wing. What's going to protect Trump? That every accusation is a confession.

[B]

Exactly. Also notice how she has to be the one to tell her audience the narrative. From a progressive Christian lens, apparently. Right. This is how the basement of fundamentalism works. When you and I were in that Christian world, we weren't told to go read, like, the scholarship on whatever issue it is. We were just told to trust our pastor's opinion on it. Oh, here's what they say about this thing. Here's why whatever it is, gender queer theory is bad or critical race theory is bad. Don't actually go to the sources. We'll tell you the narrative. And that's what Ali is doing here. It's like this is, it's classic. It's classic gatekeeping. Okay, shall we keep going?

[A]

Let's keep going.

[B]

All right, so Allie tells the perspective that I think is pretty accurate. Let's see what she says.

[C]

If you believed everything that I just said to be absolutely true, you would be outraged as well. You'd be incensed.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Yes. Now you might be thinking, as you hear my monologue, well, this isn't all true. That's not inaccurate, and you're correct, but that's not the point. Which parts by those who are telling the story in this way. It's not really about facts. It is about a larger narrative. And what could ever serve the larger narrative of proving that Trump is bad.

[B]

I'm sorry, I just got to say, it is so funny hearing someone who believes in a literal six day creation talk about the importance of facts and data. I'm sorry, I, I know it's not the, it's not, it's a little bit of a red herring. It's just funny to me to hear someone be like the reject evolution and believe that the earth was made in six literal days because of, of the, of Genesis 1 and 2. But guys, we really care about the facts. We care about data here.

[A]

Also, she just, she just insinuated that whole. They're saying all of this to try.

[C]

To prove Trump is bad.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

We do not have to prove Trump is bad. Just listen to Trump talk. At any point in the last decade, where do you.

[B]

That's what is still to this day. It does bewilder me that Ali Stuckey can take these strong stances on sexuality and on morality and on courage and unholiness and then be like. And they're trying to prove that the adjudicated rapist who's hiding from the Epstein files, who gives people the middle finger while he's walking through floor plants and says the craziest, wildest nonsense all the time. And also in Insurrect Incited Insurrection, they're trying to prove that he's bad. It's like, Ali, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just playing the clips. And anyone I would argue with, like, human decency and who isn't callous or who, who doesn't think that empathy is inherently toxic, would think to yourself, I don't know, I don't think this guy's super great. But I mean, again, call me, call me a raging Marxist. I don't know.

[A]

That's. That is the thing that, like, gets me every time. Like, we're gonna watch this whole video, we're gonna talk about and debunk her actual points. But at the end of the day, taking all of this out of it and all of her manipulation and propaganda in this video, at the end of the day, she supports and simps for Donald Trump.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

Like you and I were Republican back in 2015 when Trump came On the scene I voted for. Listen to him talk. And I said, I will never vote for that man. That is a bad man. There's no good character in that man. I saw that back then. I was one of those never Trumpers, because some of us could see that Ali. Some of us have some integrity where we see someone, oh, this guy's gonna cause a lot of harm. And I cannot in good conscience vote for someone that even if policies line up in my head, like, it's just a bad person. Some of us said, you know what? I will choose my own honor. I will choose to be able to sleep at night knowing that I didn't vote for a. Like a. Like the most.

[B]

Look where we are.

[A]

Look where we are President we've ever had.

[B]

We literally have federal agents invading cities, kidnapping people based on the color of their skin because of Trump. Like, what more evidence do you need? I don't know what to tell you.

[A]

Literally, there is a video of him bragging about assaulting women. Ally.

[B]

You'Re.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Sorry. Copy down the wrong pipe.

[A]

No, honestly, you're right. I try to take a step back every once in a while because they're gaslighting us on all these stupid things about eyes.

[B]

Oh, my God, the headband is on the headband.

[A]

I keep writing back because I'm so moving, but, no, they're trying to argue with us about, oh, it wasn't really an insurrection. Oh, we got to save our elections. Oh, immigrants are murderers and bad and they all need to leave. Oh, trans people. They're attacking our children in bathrooms, like, all of these things. And at the end of the day, they voted for a rapist that a judge said, oh, yeah, definitely. Like, he was found liable for rape by a jury convicted. At the end of the day, that's who they claim is their Christian hero. So really, it's annoying that we even have to listen to what they have to say on any issue, because they voted for a rapist three freaking times. They knew who he was, and they said, give us Barabbas. I will take power over my integrity.

[B]

And that is going to be an Instagram clip. I already marked it. No, look, get it out. I mean, I love when you ran. It's wonderful. I'm with you, obviously. I mean, I fully support, you know, what you just said. You're completely right. Look, I mean, friends just. It's amazing how we can look at what's in front of us. And people are so skilled with their words that they can convince millions of people that's not the truth. What they say is the truth instead. And it's just like, look, just look around. Like, those videos aren't AI Although there are some floating around. But the videos that we played are not. They are real. They are real. I've met people like my friend Muhammad in New Jersey who was raided by ice, his mother put into a concentration center in North Jersey for no reason. So, yeah, it's just, it's very frustrating to watch. And, you know, I'm trying to keep my cool these days. That's one of my resolutions, to be a little more calm on the show. But my gosh, the injustice is just. It's absurd. And they, you're right, they have the audacity to claim that they are holding onto the true Christian position.

[D]

Right?

[A]

Like, they have no moral superiority on anything. Like, they just don't realize that anyone who's outside of MAGA at all, they've lost any ground that they've had by who they support, which is like, one day we're going to get back to that. One day our grandkids are going to look at us, be like, how could anyone have voted for Donald Trump?

[B]

I mean, you ever see those, you know, those pictures in black and white of, of white people holding up signs about how integration is unbiblical and how it's communism? We go, what were they thinking? Here we are. Here's the modern version of that here. This is the modern version of, wow, what were they thinking back then? I can't imagine that we are now here. Like you said, in 20, 30, 40 years, history will look back and be like, wow, Ali Stuckey really held this view that empathy is toxic and that the Gestapo kidnapping brown skinned people was somehow a biblical and godly position.

[F]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice and compassion. And, and that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show Notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[D]

Let's keep going.

[B]

You ready? We only got a few minutes left. This is not a long video. Not a long I, I, I, I. It's not long. So we're almost there now. So that's the narrative. Just to catch you all up, if you're just joining. Ali gave the perspective of what, you know, the liberals are saying to all of her conservative viewers. And now let's hear her talk about this.

[C]

That deportations are wrong and that ICE is like the Gestapo to ice, get out of Minneapolis.

[B]

Amen. Donald Trump's modern day Gestapo is scooping folks up off the streets.

[C]

These headlines are designed to trigger your empathy and to trigger it in only one direction and one direction only. In Renee's this.

[B]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She is literally telling her audience, when you watch that woman who's a mother get shot at point blank range as she was turning her vehicle away from this, from this whole situation, that's just your empathy kicking in. And that's just toxic, man. That's toxic empathy. The callousness, the, the utter stupidity, the evil of what she's saying. But she's saying it's so sweet, so calm, so poised, a little bit of stark. But, oh, my God, it drives me crazy. It's crazy.

[A]

I cannot even imagine being like, this woman was just murdered point blank. And her being like, if you feel bad about that, it's just because they're trying to give you to feel empathy.

[B]

Yeah, and she just said empathy in one direction, which means that we're heading towards having empathy for the man who murdered this woman. I guarantee that's where we're going with this. Let's see if I'm right.

[C]

Hyper empathetic response has the power to paralyze your thinking so that you're only drawing one conclusion. You feel so deeply, you put yourself in her shoes, that you can only assume one reality, that she is the victim, that she is a martyr, and that ICE and Trump are the enemy. And then you even draw bigger conclusions that all deportations and all enforcement of border law and immigration law are wrong or some sort of injustice. And are causing chaos.

[B]

Just to be clear, that is a wild leap. I'm not aware of anyone in the progressive spaces that we occupy that's like, we shouldn't have any border enforcement. We shouldn't deport bad people who are trying to hurt people. Like, no, of course, Ali. We're not binary thinkers in this regard. We can hold space for both. And we can hold space for the fact that undocumented immigrants in America are half as likely to commit violent crimes compared to their or to commit crimes, period, compared to their native born counterparts. And we can also hold space for the reality that if someone is here who's an immigrant who's doing bad things, they should be deported. That, that is not a. That is not a. We. We could do both. We could do both. We could absolutely do.

[A]

It's also just, it's disingenuous the way that they portray a left or liberal like position on immigration. I don't know a single person that's arguing to get rid of the borders and just let everybody in. Like, in fact, like Joe Biden deported a bunch of people too. So did Obama. Like, we've always, every president has deported people.

[B]

People forget that Joe Biden tried to pass one of the most conservative comprehensive immigration reform bills like in recent history and Donald Trump called Republicans and told them to kill the bill because it would look better for his reelection. That's a real story. People are going to fact check me on this. All right, so let's not pretend that Joe Biden really the moderate, maybe slightly left of center president was some like open border guy who was like, no, no, when you open. But it wasn't even like that. And by the way, I support obviously a healthy, robust border with healthy immigration laws that allow people to come here in safe ways, which we can absolutely do as the world's superpower. We can absolutely put money into those systems. We just choose not to. Okay, back to Ali's nonsense.

[C]

Tell you a different perspective, a perspective that we're not hearing, but done in the same style. Jonathan Ross woke up on Wednesday, January 7, exhausted. It'd be hard enough to go after the bad guys, and there are a lot of bad guys. But it's a lot harder when you're fighting against the local and the state governments who condemn you and, and demonize you in the hordes of protesters that sometimes get violent. He knew that from experience. In June, he was dragged by a car at full speed while trying to detain an illegal immigrant from Guatemala. Some of his wounds still weren't Healed a husband and a father. He knew his job was dangerous, but he didn't want to die. He wanted to go home to them. But he kept showing up, doing what he had to do to keep his community safe. If these protesters only knew some of the people he was trying to get out of here. It wasn't just about.

[A]

Do you sense, am I going crazy? And maybe I'm just imagining it, but her tone seems way more sympathetic in this story, where in the first one, it was very condescending.

[B]

100%.

[A]

You noticed that, right?

[B]

Hold on. Where's this ICE agent from? I don't think Jonathan Ross was protecting his community. I think. I don't think he's from Minneapolis, is he? I gotta fact check this real quick on the air.

[A]

I don't know where he's from.

[B]

ICE agent.

[A]

Place sounds like Ali's got some toxic empathy for ice.

[B]

It sounds that way. Where's the.

[A]

Where does Jonathan.

[B]

Yeah, I'm trying to find out.

[A]

Live.

[B]

It looks like Mississippi, maybe. I. I don't know. Or elp, Maybe Texas, I don't know. I would guess. And I can't fact check this in the moment, friends. I don't think he's from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I don't think he's protecting his community. And as we played earlier, the clips, these people are not taking criminals off the streets. In fact. In fact, because Ali said earlier how much data matters to her, right? Facts and data, they really are important. Okay, here you go, Ali. Here you go. Here we go. Cato Institute. 65% of people taken by ICE had no convictions. 93% no violent convictions. Who exactly is ICE? You know what? While we're here, let's look. And I look. I don't play these clips as a way to dehumanize these people or to use them as props because they're human beings made in the image of God and they deserve dignity and respect. But because Ali is saying this stuff, I just feel the need to always have the receipts that we are not making this stuff up.

[A]

Yeah. According to this NBC News article, it looks like. Says on a Friday, on a quiet suburban cul de sac, blah, blah, blah. About 30 miles from the scene of the shooting in south Minneapolis, a few neighbors were out bicycling and walking their dogs. Some onlookers from other neighborhoods had come to observe the scene outside Ross's house, where he lives with his wife and children.

[B]

Okay, so you could be lucky.

[A]

He's about 30 miles outside of that area.

[B]

Okay, fair enough. But still not his local Community. But I digress. Look, this is again, warning. There's language in here. So if you have folks that you're listening with that, you don't want to hear the F word skip through. I'm not going to play this whole clip. Maybe I will. I don't know. This is a good example of some of the terrible criminals that ICE is getting off the streets. These target employees. Listen to this. It's. It's jarring. But listen to this.

[A]

Guys are all on video.

[B]

They do it on target. I'm not your US Citizen. Get the out.

[A]

Why are you kidnapping our citizen? Why are you.

[B]

Where's your phone number?

[A]

At least let him give us information about his family.

[C]

Oh, there's crazy.

[D]

What's your name? What's your name?

[C]

Christian.

[B]

US Citizens. Do these ICE agents know that to work at Target, like, you need to have, like, legal documentation? I mean, I've worked for major corporations. I worked for Apple. I had to give them proof that I was either here legally or a citizen. So, again, I just need to point out that Ali is a bold face. Liar. She's lying. The narrative that she's spinning to give sympathy to a murderer. Ironic is bs. It's a false narrative. ICE is not protecting communities. They're only making communities worse. They are instigating, they are escalating. They are shooting clergy in the head with pepper bullets who are peacefully protesting. We've all seen the video. And Al is out here like, you know, Agent Ross, just trying to protect his community from all the bad guys. Bs Rally Ali. Bs. What are you talking about?

[A]

I know. It was reported, too, that they ended up dropping off one of those target workers at just, like, a random Walmart parking lot.

[B]

Yes, I'm actually reading on the substack comments from Patrick. He says that kid is a US citizen, 17 years old. They beat him up and dumped him out of the car several blocks from the target. So, okay, so what was the point then, right? Ali? Like, if I ever had the chance to talk to Ali, which I doubt she ever will talk to me again, I would just want to play those videos and ask her, is this a criminal? Is this a criminal? Is this woman who's being ripped from her child a criminal? Like, where are the criminals, Ali? Where are they? Okay, we're almost done with this video.

[A]

And that's our whole argument, right? Like, we're all about deporting violent criminals. Everyone agrees if you're violent and you're committing crimes and you're here illegally, you should be deported. But that's not who ICE is targeting for the most part. The vast majority of who they're detaining have no criminal record whatsoever. And, but they, but they equate being here undocumented as a crime. So they just assume, well, that makes everybody a criminal. But it doesn't actually. And a lot of these people are going through the actual legal steps that it takes to get their documentation. Remember, as clear, they're clearly terrorizing US Citizens too, who have their papers. They're not.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're not taking the time to ask for your papers before they just detain you and beat you.

[B]

We all know, right? I mean, look, we've all seen an episode of Cops here and there. You know, cops just can't walk up to you and arrest you for no reason. They can't just walk up and say you're under arrest. They have to have probable cause going into a target. Arresting employees is. It's illegal. Like where's the constitutional due process? Where is it, Ali? Talk about tyranny. That's the great. And look, I wanna be clear. This is intentional. What Ali's doing is intentional, okay? She thinks that this is not tyrannical because it doesn't affect her or her people. That's why to her, these brown skinned people are invaders who are destroying America and its heritage and its culture and everything that it stands for. Because we're a good Christian nation with borders to protect. So Trump sending federal agents to cities like Minneapolis isn't tyranny. He's just enforcing the law. That's what Ali would say, which of course is nonsense. Cuz he's not enforcing the law, he's rewriting the law. They're arresting citizens, they're arresting people who are giving them their documentation. And Ali is out here telling her audience of millions of listeners, do not believe the videos. You see? Nothing. Instead, let's have sympathy for the agent who murdered a woman in cold blood, walked away, called her an effing B and then told someone else to call 91 1. That's the reality of this situation right now.

[A]

But Tim, he suffered a bruise.

[B]

Yeah, internal bleeding apparently. Okay, this is almost done. About a minute left. Here we go. I'm gonna back up just a little bit so we can kind of hear the whole piece.

[C]

Doing what he had to do to keep his community safe. If these protesters only knew some of the people he was trying to get out of here. It wasn't just about illegal immigrants from Somalia who had made the news because so many of them have been robbing the Taxpayer blind for years by setting up these fake government run daycares. These people that he was detaining, that he was trying to get were from all over and they were all living in Minnesota thanks to the sanctuary state policies that Walls and other politicians have put in place. It's really important to us that you subscribe to Blaze tv.

[B]

The end. She ends it there. I was kind of caught off like. Wait, what? Okay, sorry, guys. I didn't know that it ended like that. Hold on. Minneapolis. I'm just. I'm just curious about something. Safe city, I think. Isn't Minneapolis, like one of the safest cities in America? I could be wrong. Maybe it's the opposite, but it's a pretty.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I know Minneapolis is like a safe overall, but I don't think it makes the top 10. Last time I talked, I looked it up. I don't know. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't freaking matter. It doesn't matter. It does not matter because the narrative that Ally puts forward is what you just heard, and people suck it up. I mean, she just regurgitated the Nick Shirley nonsense that was debunked. That. I don't know. I'm at a loss. It's just so aggravating to watch this stuff sometimes. April. It's so aggravating. It's so aggravating.

[A]

Can I. I have a theory.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

Okay, so Ali, she didn't necessarily say this in this video. I mean, she said it without saying it, but she's tweeted multiple times that she 100% wants every single illegal alien deported. She doesn't think any of them deserve to be here, which is how she's able to justify these. These extreme measures. Because she has no empathy for anybody that's here illegally, regardless of their age or who they are or how kind and great people they are. Right, right. No empathy whatsoever. She. She looks at a handful of violent crimes by undocumented immigrants, which is true. There. There have been. They exist. But she takes those violent crimes and then applies that and makes every single immigrant guilty because of the few.

[B]

That's. That's right.

[A]

And I'm wondering if a way like how she's able to justify that and demonize the entire group for us, for a very small percentage of people, is because of this idea of collective punishment in her theology, and a theology that I used to believe as well, all human beings were responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. Even though we didn't do anything. We weren't the Ones that ate the apple in the garden and deceived by the snake, right? Then all of humanity now has to pay the price for that sin. It's like this idea of collective punishment. It almost comes from the theology, then trickles out into policy. Anyway, that was just like a thought that I just had.

[B]

I, I think that feeds into it, but frankly, I'm going to put it more bluntly. I just think it's pure xenophobia and racism, right? Because Ali will never do this to all the white mass shooters. Whenever a young white man shoots up a school, which is the most common scenario, we don't hear from Ali. White men are so dangerous in America right now. We need reforms on how we police young white men. We need to talk about how they get access to guns. That's never the story, right? When MAGA Christian nationalists stormed the Capitol building, was Ali like, you know what, guys, I gotta rethink this Because MAGA as their group is so toxic and bad. Look at what they did to the Capitol. No, no, no, no. This was. She literally did a three part series with like a fake journalist. Because I covered this about how maybe the FBI was behind it. So you notice how, right, those things don't cover the whole, the whole group of people, but the undocumented immigrant who does something terrible and bad all of a sudden now every undocumented documented immigrant is now on the hook. Now they're all like that. They're all criminals. They're all these people. That is how racism works. That's how xenophobia works. And that's the difference between Ali and her whiteness. Right? Where she will have empathy, toxic empathy for, for, for young white men who just have it so tough in America despite them being the most common prototype of school mass shootings. But then look at undocumented immigrants and say, hey, you know what? Agent Ross was just protecting his community from the bad guys. And here he was, you want to get home safe? We should have empathy for the woman that he shot at point blank range, called her an effing B word and then walked away from the scene. Cuz he's doing good work. That's how that works. That's the logic.

[A]

Notice how she said too, you would only feel bad about Renee because of the way the media's writing their headlines.

[B]

Dude, I felt bad for Charlie Kirk when that man got assassinated. I was like, you and I went on the air and talked about this like we can hold space for both things. It was horrific. I mean, my God, it messed me up seeing that I don't wish that on anyone. We had more empathetic for Charlie. We had more empathy for Charlie Kirk than Ali does for a literally unarmed, innocent woman who was gunned down by ice. It's crazy to me. Crazy.

[D]

I know. Hi, my name is Jennifer Lee. I live in Phoenix, Arizona and I'm a proud T and E Monthly supporter. I found TNE a couple years ago, but I've been chasing down content like this for years now. In 2017, I had a nervous breakdown. This was partially as a result of being a closeted lesbian raised in an unaffirming Southern Baptist Christian home. That awakening for me brought many gifts, one of which is the passion I now have for understanding the actual Bible, radical Christianity, and an ever widening understanding of what it means to truly follow Jesus in today's world. A second gift is the work I get to do in the world. I'm a physical therapist with an expertise in the treatment of anxiety and chronic pain. The reality is that the medical profession hasn't yet fully acknowledged the depth and complexity of the human body to hold physical or emotional pain and trauma. This is compounded by the fact that historically, we aren't taught a healthy way of expression until we're forced to, by necessity, in the form of pain or dis ease. The work I do enables me to stand proudly in a nuanced area incorporating how we can witness, access and release this tension from the body to improve someone's life. The crossover between Tim's mission for T and E and my mission for my practice is undeniable. We both see the potential for a better, brighter future for the work in the world that we do. So I will happily continue to support T and E and advocate for a more inclusive, expansive future for everyone.

[G]

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[A]

Experian.

[B]

So Allie has this worldview where she believes that the English Protestant Bible is inerrant, that everything that that that all the stories it tells factually happened. And you know, that plays into this world of propaganda like, it's really a match made in heaven, in my opinion, you know? So I don't know.

[A]

It's just wild to me that they can claim to follow Jesus, who said, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, because what you did to the least of these, you did to me. The way that they can justify being Christians and supporting the atrocities of what ICE is doing. And like, to our earlier point, no one, no one on the left or liberals or progressives that I've seen are arguing to completely get rid of borders. Like, I saw someone in the comments. I don't remember the name, but they were like, for all these people that talk about borders, Greenland has borders.

[B]

Yeah. Venezuela has borders.

[A]

We don't care about that.

[B]

Right. Well, I think that's actually a good point. It just shows, like, how empire behaves. Right? Rules for thee and not for me. We have borders that we can enforce, but we have no problem invading the borders of other countries if it serves our national interests. Right. I mean, Donald Trump said that he met with the oil company executives first and didn't inform Congress about what he was gonna do in Venezuela. Is it any more clear how capitalism and how empire and how imperialism behaves? Yeah. What about the sovereign borders of Venezuela? Hmm, Interesting. Suddenly they just don't matter. Suddenly Alvi's like, no, it's a good thing that we did this.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Well, it's just these people, these immigrants and the US Citizens like Rene and that Target employee, these are human beings that if you are following the teachings of Jesus, you are not only supposed to love your neighbor, but also your enemies. But last time I checked, immigrants are not our enemies. I don't know why there's this hatred. I mean, you brought it up. White supremacy, clearly. But it is incredibly. It's just disheartening to see the people that raised me, the belief system that raised me, that told me to follow Jesus, to love my neighbor, to take care of the poor and the immigrant and the orphan and the widow, and to see them all suddenly be like, yeah, but not those people.

[B]

Exactly. Right? Not that orphan. Not the orphan crying on camera that his mom was. Or her mom was ripped away. Not that orphan.

[A]

Jesus put no fine print when he said, love thy neighbor.

[B]

Well, and not to, you know, extend the conversation, but I think it's worth pointing out here, when Jesus is asked that in the text, he tells the story of the Good Samaritan, and that story is incredibly subversive to his audience. Right. The idea of, like, a Samaritan being good is, like, unfathomable to his audience. And he tells the story of. That's what it means to love your neighbor. It means to love those that you think are the enemy or not worthy or that are outside your tribe or your ethnicity. And to watch people like Ali sucking. I think what burns me up the most is that they have the. The gall to claim that not only are they Christians, they are the true Christians. And anyone outside of their basement of evangelical fundamentalism is just heretical or Marxist or woke. But it's like. Like they're. They're so blinded by their own dogma, they're so, you know, ignorant of the world around them that they have that kind of, you know, the guts to say nonsense like that, when in reality, they're the ones who ignore the teachings of Jesus over and over. Which is why you will rarely, if ever, see a Christian nationalist like Ali Sutke quote the red letters unless. Unless it's about marriage, which even then is out of context. You will never hear her talk about loving one's enemies. You will never hear her talk about. About feeding the hungry or healing the sick, especially on a national level. That can't be policy. Abortion should be eradicated politically, but feeding the hungry politically is Marxism. That's how this world works for her. It's wild to watch.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. What you said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Do we want to watch more? Do we need to.

[B]

Do you think we need to?

[A]

I mean, there's. There are hundreds, I think are.

[B]

Yeah. Sorry to cut you off there.

[A]

I was going to say, I mean, there's no shortage of just awful videos of ice terrorizing people.

[B]

We play quite a few. I feel like our audience has seen them. We're probably in the same algorithms that we're all in. I'm sure you've seen the videos. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to overdo it, so I don't think we need to, frankly, you know, I don't think it feels right in my mind. People know people know people.

[A]

Now, should we move on then, to our last segment?

[B]

Yeah, I think we should. We'll have a little bit of fun now. Hopefully.

[A]

We. Christian.

[B]

I will say this. This segment is. I like knowing that we have something that we're going to land on that hopefully lightens the mood a little bit for all of us, because laughing is important in times like this.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

This video showed up on my feed, I think organically. I can't remember if it was her video or someone else that shared It.

[B]

But this is a good one. This is one of my favorites, I think, in a long time. I think so. I think so. So weird Christian belief. We'll play the whole clip. And here you go, friends.

[H]

Do you have one of those Christian friends who keep sending you little Jesus loves you gifts or they send you these random worship songs, or they are inviting you to church to Bible study? Maybe they even sent you a Bible in the mail or got you one for Christmas. I want to let you in on something about the Christian friends in your life. There's literally nothing in it for them to be hounding you to become a Christian. There's no promise of, like, an extra planet when they die. There's no promise of like 77 virgins when they get to heaven and meet their maker. There's nothing in it for your Christian friends if you say, okay, I believe in Jesus. They literally just don't want you to rot in hell. So that's very generous of your Christian friend to be pressing on you the love of Jesus. So just pause for a minute, maybe take a minute and send your Christian friend a thank you note, because you're gonna need that person in the end.

[A]

Why is she so mad?

[B]

But she's also smiling like she's so happy while she's saying it.

[A]

No, that is a hostile smile. I might. I mean, I don't know this woman. I feel like someone told her, please stop hounding me with your Christian. And so she was like, I'm gonna make a video. That. That's just my. My guess.

[B]

I mean, also, I just want to say, like, I was not taught that there was nothing in it for me. I was taught that there were jewels in my crown. There were extra rooms in my mansion. Like, there was definitely incentive for me.

[A]

The more people you led to Christ, the bigger your mansion would be. Not to mention, regardless of what happens in heaven, which your treasure will be in heaven, I was taught if I did not witness to that person and then they died and went to hell, their blood would be on my hands.

[B]

Wow, that sounds like a pretty serious incentive for you to proselytize to your friends. On top of them, of course, burning in hell forever.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I love how she's like, thank your Christian friend from saving you from burning in hell and embrace the love of Jesus. It's like put two and two together. Like, how loving can God be if your only options are burn in hell forever or become a white evangelical Christian? I don't know.

[A]

Why is her tone so angry?

[B]

It's so intense. It's like that, like, sarcastic kind of anger.

[A]

They just want to help you not go to hell.

[B]

Wait, I got, I got to pull up.

[A]

This is like a big forced smile.

[B]

I think it's here. I think it's right here.

[H]

So maybe don't want you to rot in hell, so that's to rot.

[A]

Why are you smiling at that? So weird.

[B]

But I was. I mean, was I that intense? No. Did I believe that? Absolutely. Absolutely believe that.

[A]

This is, like, so passive aggressive. Yeah, the smile, it's very similar to Ali Beth Stuckey. Like, the way she can talk in her little voice and say the most asinine things, but she said, like, it's, It's.

[B]

It's just, it's poison. She presents it so kindly, but it's such. It's venom. Like, it is venom for her neighbors who are not white evangelical Christian fundamentalists. Like anyone outside of her tribe. It is absolute poison to them.

[A]

I would, I would. If I was a betting woman, I would bet money that someone had recently just told. Asked her to stop hounding them about Christianity. And then she made that video that felt. That felt personal.

[B]

She's like, I. I won't respond this way. I'll just make a public video about this general thing for absolutely no reason. That was on my mind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, friends. I mean, what a show. Thanks for tuning in and hanging out with us. It means the world, of course, that you're here every Thursday as we go live at 12:00 Eastern. If you're looking for community, if you're looking for a better path forward in faith, TNE Connect the New Evangelicals, the organization that I started now led by Melinda Hale, is here for you. It's a totally free resource. You can join by going to thenewevangelicals.com connect. You can get access to top tier scholarship, to our social media feed full of people trying to find a better path forward in faith. Regional group chats, all the good stuff. So we have things for you beyond just April and I discussing into a microphone. Although we do love doing this work. So. Anything else, April, that I.

[D]

That.

[B]

That I missed?

[A]

No, just stay safe out there.

[D]

There's some.

[A]

These are some scary times, but you're not alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah, try to get through this.

[B]

Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April Ajoy.

[B]

We'll see you next Thursday.

[A]

Bye.