← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I am April A joy.
- [00:28]
B
I am Tim Whitaker.
- [00:29]
A
And we have, I think, an interesting show for you today. Yep, yep. So for those of you who come from the evangelical world or still in that world, you've probably heard of the Passion Conference. It's one of the largest, if not the largest, youth Christian conference in the world. They have it every year. This year it was in Dallas, Texas. It was held at the Texas Rangers ball, Ballpark. And I. They're claiming they had 45,000 students that went to this Passion Conference. Now, if you've never been to a conference like this, that's like focusing. I think the focus is like teenagers to mid-20s. Like, yeah, 25.
- [01:19]
B
A lot of, like, youth groups are going to go small, young adult groups, things, people like that.
- [01:24]
A
Yeah, the target are young people. It's really empowering. Like, you go there every. And you go there with your youth group. So you're there with your friends. They've got lots of worship, very high energy, very emotionally driven music, emotionally driven sermons and altar calls where you play pads in the background, like. And I remember, I. I don't think I've ever been to Passion, but I went to acquire the Fire. And that's. That was basically like my version of Passion where it's also in this huge stadium. So you're there with literally thousands of others of your peers being told that, you know, your life is bigger than you, that you're here to change the world. And you leave so empowered, like, you feel like you're on cloud nine. And, you know, they're constantly telling you too, that, like, those chills that you feel in the, in the worship services, like, that's God. And, and so you take that as proof of, like, everything that is said in this conference is from God. We are on God's side. God is on our side. And it's just a very compelling experience as a young person to attend these events.
- [02:36]
B
100%. In fact, if you're listening on podcasts, I'm playing footage of Passion Conference. It's a worship set, I think, you know, maybe for those who didn't grow up in this world. You look at this production, you would think it's, you know, you're watching like a U2 concert or something. This is not small time stuff. They're playing. Yeah, they're playing in a stadium. And, and the person who is kind of leading this worship set. Her name is Carrie Jobe, and her husband Cody Carnes is here, too. Just so you know, the connection. These are the same people who led worship at Charlie Kirk's funeral service. So there's a huge connection to this world and like that Charlie Kirk, Christian nationalist world, even if it's not overt in moments like this. Right? And I have never been to Passion myself, although this has been going on for a long, long time. But I've been to events like this. You're totally right, April. It's emotionally charged. It feels very hip. It feels very cool. It feels very with the times. I mean, look at these people playing, right? They look all modern. You would never guess that these people hold conservative Christian fundamentalist views that are not just for themselves, but also must be exported to the world around them. So it's the reason why we're doing this video today is because we want people to understand that. You know, I'm sure a lot of folks who didn't grow up in this world ask themselves all the time, how do Christians support what's happening right now with ice? Or how do they support Trump? Or how do they support this stuff that looks so dehumanizing, it's so blatantly unchristian? Well, a lot of it is because the funnel into that world looks like this. It looks like this really cool, modern, almost progressive kind of vibe in Christian thought. But it's a Trojan horse to get people into fundamentalist Christian evangelicalism that tells them if they don't witness to their friends and convert them, they're going to burn in hell forever. And of course, that term conversion has a whole litany of.
- [04:28]
A
We would say witnessing.
- [04:29]
B
Witnessing.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah, we would call it witnessing. And we. You're taught too, like, if you don't witness to your friends and tell them about Jesus and they die without ever hearing about Jesus or the gospel, that their blood is on your hands.
- [04:41]
B
I. I brought my neighbors to an event like this, and I had them walk down the aisle and they got sick.
- [04:46]
A
Saved.
- [04:46]
B
His name was Travis. And I was so happy. My mom was so happy. This is also the same kids that I brought to go see Passion of the christ at age 13. I digress, you know, but like, yes, this is a very common tool for evangelism. The. I, The. The notion is that if you do not get saved, your friend will spend eternity in hell. But again, there's also a very tangible, lived theological paradigm that fuels all of this, and we're going to get into that in Just a minute. But yeah, this is, we're going somewhere with this, friends, but this is what a modern evangelical youth rally looks like today in America.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, and I think it's important to point out too, because I get some pushback occasionally from people or just comments from people that maybe were never raised religious, who cannot even fathom how any logical sane person could fall into fundamentalism or Christian nationalism. And I want to show you this. This is how they specifically target young people. Like that is an actual strategy to. And it's under the guise of converting people and saving souls. But there's a, a sneakier, subtle ulterior motive too, which is to bring them into their side of the culture war. And so there's this sneaky underlying of Christian nationalism that is not as overt in these situations. You could go to this conference and if you blink, you could miss the Christian nationalist undertones that show up because it is, they do focus on Jesus. They're singing songs about, they have scripture in the songs, they're talking about God, they're talking about loving your neighbor. They're saying a lot of actually really good things, right. That are about, you know, helping your community and changing the world. And so that is there, but there is this sneakiness that's underneath it to get you into Christian nationalism that is so subtle that you can go years and years and years before you ever realize, oh, shoot, I was a Christian nationalist, right?
- [06:47]
B
I mean, yeah, same. I, I did not when I was in this space, either as a drummer playing music like this or when I was a youth group kid, I did not correlate my faith to like these right wing politics. I just thought, no, Christians vote pro life. That's just what Christians do. I just thought, no, Christians don't vote for Democrats. You know, it wasn't overt in my church at the time, like kind of how it is now in some other spaces. But it was very sneaky. I just learned to correlate being a good Christian with, you know, voting for people who don't want to kill babies, who don't believe that America is terrible, that kind of thing. And it's really important to see that.
- [07:28]
A
And the COVID Christian nationalism can become very overt when you're dealing with, like what your youth pastors say when they do breakout sessions when. Because behind the scenes, it's actually very overt as a pastor's kid that heard the behind the scenes conversations. But yeah, we wanted to show this out. I also want to point out too, the peer pressure when you go to Events like this to go forward to the altar call, to, you know, try to get filled the Holy Spirit to do all these things. Like, there is immense peer pressure to go all in and give your life for this purpose and this mission.
- [08:01]
B
I also want to give a caveat, then we'll get into kind of the meat here that the reason why we're talking about this is not because we think that it's bad that people get into a huge stadium and sing songs to Jesus or to God. I don't think it's inherently bad at all. In fact, I find and found a lot of meaning in those spaces. I found a lot of community and belonging that the church gave me a place to. To become a professional drummer. That's not why we're talking about this. We're talking about it because this is the funnel into radicalization that demands people try and change the country into a Christo fascist nation. Even if it's not that overt the undertones. If, if, if the breadcrumbs if followed lead you down a path where all of a sudden you love Charlie Kirk and you love, you know, the idea that we're a Christian nation, have to protect it from the deep state. That's why we're talking about this. I don't care if Kerry Jobe or Cody Carnes think that, you know, being gay is sinful, fine, believe what you want. But they want that to reflect American law and for our gay neighbor not to have the right to marry who they want to marry. That is the problem here. Okay. And that's why we're talking about this.
- [09:14]
A
Yes. So we want to. We're not just going to tell you that this happens. We want to show you a clip from Passion. And this just happened at the beginning of 2026. So, like early January, just a couple weeks ago, this happened in Dallas, Texas. So we want to show you this clip. And this is an example of. If you're not paying attention, it doesn't. It kind of sounds good what he's saying, but there is a very subtle undertone of Christian nationalism in what he says. And we want to give you an example of what we're talking about.
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B
Can you just share really quick who the guy that we're looking at in sweatshirt is?
- [09:47]
A
This is. So I actually had not heard of this guy before because I think he became well known when I was no longer in youth group. His name is Cliff Knechtel. He is a senior pastor at Grace Community Church in New Canaan, Connecticut. He also hosts a podcast. But I Think what he's mostly known for these young people is that similar to Charlie Kirk, he has held open air discussions at different universities like Harvard, Yale, mit, University of Florida, Texas, Wisconsin, et cetera. He goes in and has these conversations. He kind of debates people from. And he angles himself as more theological than political where I think Charlie Kirk was clearly a little more political. Yeah, that's where the sneakiness comes in. And, and we will get to that. And then the person that is asking him the questions is Louis Giglio. And, and he is one of, I think the co founder of these Passion Conferences. He's also a big, the pastor and theologian.
- [10:48]
B
He's the senior pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta, Georgia, which puts on the Passion Conference, which was kind of his brainchild I think over 20 years ago. I mean it's been going, going on.
- [10:57]
A
For a very long time. Since 95 or like the 90s, almost 30.
- [11:02]
B
So long time. I would put Cliff in the category of like a Frank Turek for those of you who know who he is. He's like a theological apolog who will go onto campuses to debate the existence of God or absolute truth. But of course they work with folks like Charlie Kirk or before he died, you know, groups like Turning Point USA routinely. Okay, so here we go. Let's listen. Yeah, questions.
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A
Should.
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B
Should Jesus followers be involved in politics?
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A
Someone was asking.
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C
America is a great country.
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B
This is clef.
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C
When America follows Jesus Christ, America turns downright ugly and evil. When America turns its back on Christ, I don't care if it's slavery, child sex traffic, trade, the exportation of pornography, out of control, greed out of control, use of power. And that is why, my friends, I am not here to convince you to vote for political party or for a particular politician. Because I am convinced that the solution to America's problems is not the conservative agenda, it's not the liberal agenda, it's the kingdom of God. It's the rule of Jesus Christ.
- [12:18]
B
Okay, okay, hold on.
- [12:21]
A
Don't we have more there?
- [12:23]
B
No, that's all I pulled.
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A
Oh. So he goes on.
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B
I'm sorry, I didn't pull the whole thing, I guess.
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A
Sorry. Yeah, he go, he goes on to explain that you should still that. Hold on, I think we need to pause. I think we need to play that second part because.
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B
Okay, here we go.
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D
The changes are the.
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B
That is not the right video. Okay, here we go.
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D
Should.
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B
Should Jesus followers be involved in politics? Someone was asking.
- [12:56]
C
America is a great country. When America follows Jesus Christ, America turns downright ugly and evil. When America turns its back on Christ. I don't care if it's slavery, child sex traffic, trade, the exportation of pornography, out of control, greed, out of control, use of power. And that is why, my friends, I am not here to convince you to vote for a political party or for a particular politician. Because I am convinced that the solution to America's problems is not the conservative agenda, it's not the liberal agenda. It's the kingdom of God. It's the rule of Jesus Christ. What do you want to do? Do you want to pass a bunch of laws to change people's behavior? Christ goes deeper. Christ says, I want to change your heart, your motives, your ambitions, your goals in life. You live for the kingdom of God. Second point, should you be involved politically? Absolutely, yes. God has instituted government to maintain justice, to protect citizens. You and I as Americans have the right to vote. Please vote. Vote your conscience. Study the issues, study the Bible. Have a biblical worldview of immigration, abortion, LGBTQ money, helping the poor, respecting the rights of an individual, justice, equality, love. Now that's a mouthful right there. And if you read the Bible and adopt a Christ centered worldview on all those issues, you'll know how to vote. Please vote.
- [14:41]
A
So we've had.
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B
Okay, okay.
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A
So much to unpack.
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B
So, so much to unpack.
- [14:48]
A
On the surface, he didn't say anything overtly Christian nationalist right there. He said, vote for how you read the Bible. And he mentioned, you know, the atrocities of slavery. And like, he mentioned good things. Vote biblically on immigration, vote biblically on abortion, on lgbtq. He didn't say which way was the biblical worldview. But everybody in that room knows exactly what he means.
- [15:21]
B
That's right.
- [15:21]
A
He means the conservative agenda. Even when he said, I'm not here to push the conservative agenda or the liberal agenda, I'm here to push God's agenda. But what he's not saying is that God's agenda just happens to line up perfectly with the conservative agenda.
- [15:37]
B
If every student in that room asked their youth pastor what the Bible says about abortion, LGBTQ people, immigration, they would all give right wing talking points. They would say, it's not biblical to be in a gay relationship. It's not biblical to have open borders. Abortion is murder. But also, I need to point this out, and I wouldn't have known this until I deconstructed and actually dive deeper into my own tradition. But when he talks about slavery, things like that, dude, those were Christians advocating for those positions. Like, like, this is the thing, is he talks about how if America, America descends into chaos when it turns its back on Christ. You know, the KKK argued that they were instituting a Christian nation in America based on racism and segregation. You know, that, that, that slave owners believe that it was their God given, right, Biblically speaking, to own other people. So the, the. This world is very good at ignoring even its own tradition. It doesn't. They don't talk about Jerry Falwell and how he made the crisis of the AIDS epidemic in his world, in his words, a judgment against gay people. Right? They don't talk about that. They don't talk about how Bob Jones University overturned their interracial dating ban in the year 2000. They don't talk about how Jerry Falwell got politicized because of school segregation and integration. Right? So, but that's all ignored. And then you're right, there's this way that they talk about it where it's like, I'm not gonna tell you how to vote. And you can vote, you're conscious conscience as long as. And this is the unspoken part, you vote with the values that we give you based on what we tell you. The Bible says. And if you come away with different convictions, you are an apostate, you're a heretic, you're no longer welcome here, et cetera. Every person in that room, when they hear those culture war issues, immigration, LGBTQ plus inclusion, abortion, we, it's. They all are going to fill in the blanks of what the, in their mind, the Bible quote unquote says about those things. And that is the bait and switch, 100%.
- [17:59]
E
Hi, my name is Yasmin. I'm from Brazil. I started donating to the new evangelicals because I really believe what you all do is very important. I grew up Presbyterian in a progressive family, but conservative town. And because of that, I always struggled a lot because I grew up and I am a queer woman. And so my relationship with the church was very complicated because a lot of people really don't believe that queer people should be part of their community, that we should be accepted. And I grew up with that guilt, with that pain. And so that really pulled me away from the church for a long while. And now I'm kind of like slowly stepping back towards my faith. And it really makes me happy to see there are people like you guys, there are groups like you guys that take on a more accepting and loving and kind approach to religion and that you're trying to get that to become more of a mainstream thing. And I think that is incredibly valuable to all of us who felt excluded from our own faith.
- [19:32]
A
You can give this man the benefit of the doubt and saying, well, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's not meaning it that way. And we'll show you in a second about how that's wrong. But I also just want to point out to what he's saying. He's not saying that in a vacuum, most of those kids, you know, unless they got drugged there by their friends because they didn't want them to go to hell. Most of those kids go to youth group every week. They go to church every week. Their families reinforce what a biblical worldview is. And Tim, you and I know that there really is no such thing as a biblical worldview because the Bible has many different worldviews within the text itself. So there is no one biblical worldview whatsoever. But the way that they present it, as if there is one biblical worldview and we have that one biblical worldview and it just happens to line up with Republicans.
- [20:25]
B
What are the odds?
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A
What are the chances?
- [20:28]
B
On top of that, Cliff makes a point that, you know, Christ centered or like, you know, a Christ political worldview. Well, if you read the red letters of what Christ taught and look at the policies that this regime is instituting because of white evangelicals voting for them, you can't reconcile those things. You can't reconcile Christ telling us to welcome the immigrant and what Trump is currently doing to people. In fact, Clint even mentions about, about the, the rights of citizens, American citizens. I wonder what he thinks about what happened to Renee Nicole Good. I wonder what he thinks about what happened to those citizens who are being peppered, sprayed or the clergy who are being shot in the head with, with pepper bullets. Right? There's all these assumptions underneath each one. Each one of those statements that Cliff made about love, equality, you know, citizenship, constitutional rights, et cetera. And that is what is unspoken. But Cliff knows his audience. He knows what the, what the churches are preaching that send their students to events like this. So he doesn't need to say the quiet part out loud. The assumption is filled in automatically.
- [21:40]
A
And I will say what Cliff does is he comes across very educated. He's, he's very well spoken. He's, he's not sensationalized either. Like, there are a lot of right wing pastors and stuff that come across very aggressive and very, I don't, I don't even know what, what the right word is, but they're just kind of in your face and they're highly emotional. He doesn't come across that way. He comes across very, you Know, level headed and intelligent, which makes it an easier pill to swallow. So if a kid in there is like, I like what this guy says. He seems to make sense, he's not pushing a political agenda. And I do think there are a lot of kids that are tired of politics and so they think, yeah, I'm not involved in politics, I just stand up for my faith, which is political. But they're taught it's not political, it's just being a good Christian. So what they're going to do is they're going to Google him, right? They're going to see what else does he say? He says to vote. He says to vote for what the Bible says on these issues. So I wonder what he says are these issues. Hold on, don't pull it up yet. I googled him because I even thought for a second, he doesn't seem as very Christian nationalist as a lot of these people. I've never heard of him. So I did a quick Google search and do you know what one of the first things that popped up was? It was an interview that he did back in August of this past year, this past August 2025. Guess who interviewed him?
- [23:07]
B
Tim, can I hit the button now?
- [23:09]
A
Hit the button.
- [23:11]
B
There he is. The guy's on Tucker Carlson Show.
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A
Tucker Carlson.
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B
What are the odds? Wow. No way. Shocker alert. Wait, you mean he wasn't interviewed by Hasan Piker? That is, that's. I would never. Wow, Tucker, color me shocked. Surprised. Yeah.
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A
So if any kid there had any wonder, what does Cliff mean by building a worldview? Oh, well, let's go hear what he had to say on Tucker Carlson.
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B
We got a few clips to pull through. To pull up and go through. Yeah, here we go.
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D
Following moral relativism, relativism in general has a stranglehold now on people the way it never used to. Neil DeGrasse Tyson once said, the good thing about science is it's true whether you believe it or not. Well, guess what, Neil degrasse Tyson, that's true about all truth. It's true whether you believe it or not. And yet you and I live in a culture where more and more people say essentially everything's relative, it doesn't matter what you believe. And my point is, if someone says that to you, take them seriously, don't believe what they just said to you. So unfortunately, that whole idea of relativism, the truth is totally subjective, has a stranglehold on more and more people's lives. So I've watched that trend continue over the past 45 years.
- [24:23]
B
I do want to pause here for a second? Because I want to give people insight to this world. This is a very classic apologetics move where they deal in absolutes, right? We go from absolute, objective truth to, well, no one believes anymore that truth exists at all. And that is not the case because it depends on the category that we are talking about. If we're talking about scientific realities like gravity or the earth being round, certainly we believe in objective truth. I believe objectively, meaning regardless of what I believe inside my head, this thing is true. Yes, I do believe that. I believe that vaccines are objectively helpful because we have data to prove why they're helpful. Right. But truth in the sense of theological or religious truth is incredibly subjective, incredibly so. And all you need to do is look at human history and the thousands of religious ideas and holy books and narratives and myths that we all have based on our religious tradition, our cultural context, our historical moment, et cetera, and we can even zoom in more to the Christian tradition. Not every Christian in human existence agrees with Cliff on a host of these issues. I mean, me and you are proof of that, right?
- [25:42]
E
We.
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B
We're Christians and we strongly disagree with Cliff's take on queer inclusion or on abortion or on immigration. But for Cliff, he's gonna paint the picture of, well, you either believe that everything is relative and that no truth exists, or you believe what I tell you about the Bible is objectively true and that God, AKA how I paint God to you as a picture of God, is objectively true and therefore supersedes your friends, religious traditions, your. Your neighbors, religious traditions, et cetera. That is the sleight of hand here. That's the sleight of hand. And this is how he frames the whole discussion.
- [26:17]
A
They also believe that good morality can only come from who they believe God is, from their God, and that if you don't have their God, which they would say is the God you and I believe in, the God of the Bible too. But a very different take from who they think God is. But they think that you have to believe in their version of God to have any good morals.
- [26:40]
B
That's right.
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A
Which is why they can easily dismiss anybody who doesn't believe what they believe.
- [26:45]
B
That's right. That's right. Okay. And you're going to see Cliff kind of have to concede some of that point as we go along here. But it's important to understand the framing. Can you stop this?
- [26:54]
F
I feel like you're at the heart of something that I don't fully understand. But if you don't mind explaining a little more fully. Why does that statement, I can change my sex because I'm self created, I'm God of my own life. Why does that affect the way that I feel about you or you about me? Why does that make you less valuable or me less valuable?
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D
It doesn't. But it's based on a philosophy. It's based on a worldview.
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C
Do.
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D
And that worldview says that we all are cosmic accidents. Which means we define ourselves, we define our value, we define our morality, we define everything about us.
- [27:20]
F
Right.
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D
Which means I will also define how I'm going to treat you.
- [27:23]
F
Exactly.
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D
And if you rub me the wrong way and if you cut me off at the knees, I'm coming after you to teach you never to do that to me again. And revenge becomes the modus operandi.
- [27:31]
F
Yes.
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D
I have never ever heard of a porpoise forgiving a shark for eating his porpoise friend. But we're not porpoises. We're human beings created in the image of God, which means we have this ability to reflect the character of God, which is gracious and forgiving and also just and holy.
- [27:46]
A
Okay, go ahead, April, go ahead. This has. This world has such a black and white ideology. It's either one extreme or the other. You're either of God or you of. You are of Satan. You are either good and of God and on their side, or you are evil. Just the fact. What did he say? He said if you can change your sex, it's because you come from a.
- [28:11]
B
Worldview where being a cosmic accident and nothing accident. Yeah. We create our own moral truth, etc.
- [28:18]
A
Right. So he. He right there is assuming that every single trans person is an atheist.
- [28:25]
B
Right, Exactly.
- [28:26]
A
Which is just factually not true.
- [28:29]
B
Have you met our friend Billy Horde?
- [28:31]
A
Right, Yeah. I know plenty of trans people who are Christians, who go to church, who are pastors even. Like, it is just disingenuous to be like, well, you can only be trans if you think you're an accident.
- [28:43]
B
That's right.
- [28:44]
A
What?
- [28:44]
B
That's right. It's such a fallacy in so many ways. And also it's not. We're not talking about sex. It's about gender. Right. Gender and sex are different things, to be clear. But again, in Cliff's world, it's one and the same. But yes, this is another great example of just how like this slippery slope argument works. Well, if you believe that you can change your gender identity, you must leave the narrative that we're all cosmic accidents. By the way, I want to point out something. If what Cliff said is true earlier, that truth is truth. If we have evidence to suggest that we really are, you know, here because of a big bang or because of random selection, if we have more evidence, that's the reality we got to deal with. I'm not saying that's inherently objectively the case, but, man, there's a reason why most people believe, right, that we are made out of stardust because we have evidence to support that. That doesn't mean that we can't find meaning, doesn't mean that. That.
- [29:38]
F
That.
- [29:38]
B
That we can't find a sense of narrative or, or, or. Or something bigger than ourselves. But if truth is truth, Cliff, then it doesn't matter what you think about God or not, right? If we have more evidence to suggest one more than the other, we have to go with the, with the evidence. But that's not how it works in this worldview. In this. They have already made up their mind. They have objective truth. Everyone else does not submit to their way of thinking or be ostracized, both culturally. Right. And in the church.
- [30:05]
A
Right. And for the record, no shade to anyone who is an atheist. Like, everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want to believe, and it doesn't make you any less of a human being or any less of a good person or not. I remember I was floored when I was in Bible school or I was a Christian college. It was a Bible class. And I learned that there are actually a lot of Christians and philosophers that believe in evolution and the Big bang. Like those two can coexist. You can believe in God and evolution?
- [30:32]
B
Yes. It's not one or the other, unless you're a Christian fundamentalist who preaches this kind of apologetics. And you have to choose. You're either this big bad atheist who lives in evolution, or you're this good Christian who believes in creation and that God has a purpose for your life. There's no in between.
- [30:47]
A
Right.
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F
Generally, rank and file Christians are. Everyone knows us way happier than everybody else. So why is everyone mad at them?
- [30:55]
D
Well, I have a good reason to be mad at God. God impinges on my freedom to do whatever I want. I don't want you telling me, Tucker, what I should do. And I don't want God telling me what I should do. I don't want anybody telling me what to do because I bought into a false definition of freedom, which is freedom means doing whatever you want to do.
- [31:09]
F
It's not true, but no one believes it. There's not one person on the planet who Believes you should do whatever you want to do. Everybody has a strict belief system. The ladies who confronted you about loving racists like their religion tells them that racists are not human. Whatever a racist is, by the way, but. And you're required to hate them. So they've got their own rules, too.
- [31:26]
D
Well put.
- [31:26]
F
Everybody has their own rules.
- [31:28]
D
Yep.
- [31:28]
F
Christianity is no different from secular liberalism. It's no different from Buddhism or communism or in the sense that it has a code, a moral code, and people who step outside it are apostates.
- [31:39]
B
So that's just.
- [31:39]
F
That's the nature of moral code.
- [31:41]
A
Real quick, I just want to point out how Tucker framed that question. Christianity is no different from. From secular liberalism.
- [31:49]
B
Yep.
- [31:50]
A
Because in this world, you cannot be a Christian and be liberal. You by default have to be secular.
- [31:56]
B
Yes. Yes. By the way, secular liberalism is not a religion.
- [32:00]
A
No, it's not.
- [32:01]
B
Communism is not a religion. They are different. One is a political philosophy, one is a religion. Not saying that there aren't political overtones. Of course, as Christians, right there, it's a. It's a political thing. But communism does not claim right to be this religious idea with a God that everyone must assimilate into or else they burn in hell forever. That's not what communism is.
- [32:24]
A
Yeah.
- [32:25]
B
Okay, we'll keep going.
- [32:27]
F
I think the difference is the Christians seem like, pretty happy, pretty joyful, pretty light. So, like, why are people mad at them for that?
- [32:33]
B
I don't really. I mean, this is obvious, but many people of different faiths or non faiths are also happy and liked. Again, it's not one or the other.
- [32:44]
A
And I know a lot of really miserable Christians.
- [32:47]
B
A lot. They were at January 6th. A lot of them. Oh, buzzing. Okay, so here's his. So here's his response to that.
- [32:54]
D
Yeah, God is offensive in that God tells me what is right sexually, what is right financially, what is right when it comes to use of power. And I would just assume not believe in a being who can see through the keyhole into my life. I'd like to put my finger over the keyhole and say there is no God who really sees me, who's going to hold me responsible. Come on. The day of judgment is intimidating.
- [33:11]
B
Okay, we have to just say this as well. Let's be very clear. As far as we're aware, April, God, at least not very often, does not speak in an audible voice to people about what they do or don't command. The Bible was written by human beings. Now, we can assign spiritual overtones to that. We can say that Maybe they were inspired by something supernatural to write down whatever they wrote. But Cliff makes the assumption that how he's telling you what God is like or how the Bible operates is him speaking on behalf of God. So when he really says God's offensive, what he's saying is what I say to people is offensive because I believe that God has these views about sexuality, abortion, et cetera. And it's not enough just for me to hold to them. Other people who see differently must also submit to these belief systems. Therefore, God is offensive. So we have to make. We have to make sure that. I want to just be really clear about that. Right. God is not around us at any given time as far as we can experience them with our senses. So Cliff is really saying my interpretation of what I think about God as found in my interpretation of the Bible, should be what other people have to assimilate into. And if they're offended, they're just mad at God, not at me.
- [34:31]
A
Oh, yeah, it's the whole. It's. It's also plays into the whole persecution.
- [34:36]
B
Yes.
- [34:36]
A
Narrative where they push what their ideology is claiming it's God's ideology. And when they get pushed back because, oh, I don't know, they're being hateful or bigoted or they're trying to take rights away from entire groups of people, or they're cheering on ice, ripping, shooting mothers in the head, you know, like.
- [34:55]
B
Right.
- [34:55]
A
Whether, like, they. And someone pushes back on that or gets mad at them, they play the. You're just mad at God. You're not mad at me. And then they go to that verse where Jesus says, the world will hate you like it hated me. And then they wear it like a badge of honor.
- [35:10]
B
That's right. Yeah. That is the great American persecution. American Christian persecution. Kink that we talk about so often. All right, we'll keep going. Next clip.
- [35:19]
F
Just think it's interesting that Christianity is the one thing that. That a certain sort of modern mindset won't tolerate.
- [35:26]
D
Yep.
- [35:27]
F
Any other religion is fine. Christianity not allowed.
- [35:29]
D
Fascinating.
- [35:30]
B
Okay, look, it's not Christianity. It's hyper fundamentalist Christian supremacists who insist that we all have to assimilate into their version of fundamentalist thinking. If there were in our government Hindus who were trying to tell people like you and me or my neighbor, hey, we have to assimilate into their hyper fundamentalist version of Hinduism lest we die or lest we whatever, I'd be against that too.
- [35:56]
C
No one.
- [35:57]
B
No one in America. No one in America. There is not, as far as I'M aware. One piece of legislation in any state trying to be passed that would stop Cliff or Tucker or the pastor down the street who would hold to a view that being gay is sinful or that abortion is murdered. No one's stopping his free speech to say that. The problem is when they want to use their speech as a fist to swing right into someone else's face, that's when the government should say, actually, we have a First Amendment here that prohibits that. But for them, that's seen as hatred. That's seen as, like you said earlier, persecution. Right, right. That is what we're talking about here. So, no, Tucker, people, most Americans are Christian. Christianity dominates the American, you know, culture. Cliff just spoke at an event with 45,000 students in a stadium and preach conservative Christianity. We're, dude, live and let live. Just keep the hell out of my bedroom. Keep the hell out of my doctor's office. That's what we're saying.
- [36:58]
A
It is the difference between someone saying, I'm not going to do that because it goes against my beliefs. That's great, everyone. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe. Like, you. You just believe what you believe. But where it becomes Christian nationalism, and when people start pushing back is when you say, you can't do that because it goes against my beliefs. Like that. That is the key difference. I just want to point out, too, something that they bring up a lot to kind of fuel this Christian persecution narrative. Like when gay marriage was legalized in 2015.
- [37:31]
B
Yeah.
- [37:32]
A
They said, like, oh, that this is attack on Christianity because they're going to make pastors marry gay people. But within the law, exceptions existed already. There isn't a religious exemption, so they get their panties on a wad and freak out when literally they still get exceptions to these rules. Like, they are not persecuted in this country at all.
- [37:56]
B
At all. They thrive in America. They are overrepresented in American politics right now.
- [38:01]
A
Look at who's in charge right now.
- [38:02]
B
Right.
- [38:03]
A
Look at the anti Christian task force.
- [38:07]
B
Okay, I think this is a clip where he does a long diatribe about. About gay people. I think it's really worth listening to because again, this is how the logic of, like, this is how it works in youth groups. And it's important to hear how. How they frame it. I think this is the clip kind.
- [38:22]
F
Of questions you get about gays and how do you respond?
- [38:24]
D
Yeah, my first point is I have to apologize to the gay lesbian population for the way they have been viewed as inferior pieces of dirt by certain Christians. Unquote. That is false. Gay bashing is not an option for a fall of Christ because a fall of Christ understands all people are created in the image of God. That is the basis for our value and dignity. Second point, the Bible insists that all of us were created for a purpose. And according to Christ, the purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbors, yourself. In the same way that God made us for a purpose, he made our sexuality for a purpose. And we read about this in Genesis 2:24. We read, for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So it's not the federal government that created marriage. It's not culture that created marriage. God did. God created our sexuality. God could have happened, could have had procreation happen. At the end of a Q tip, when a man and a woman mix their earwax, little babies could have been born from that. He didn't. He chose to create us, male and female. And that is beautiful. That is a precious, precious gift from him. Now he says it's such an important gift that it's to be experienced within the context of a life long commitment.
- [39:27]
B
I want to do pause here. As far as I'm aware, there is no such language in the Bible about a lifelong commitment in a monogamous relationship. In fact, in the Hebrew Bible, they're taking multiple wives all the time. Even Genesis 2 does not give any kind of prescription. And if Adam and Eve were the first ever human beings on earth that had to populate the rest of the planet at some point, things are getting real weird with who you're sleeping with, whether it's your children or your children's children. It gets real bizarre, right? So we just have to call that part out. This piece that he just said is nowhere as far as I'm aware, thinking about it.
- [40:04]
D
In Scripture, you separate sex from a lifelong commitment, you're going down a destructive path. Christ says so, doesn't say that Christ. Point would be, I have perverted the gift of sex that God gave me through my heterosexual lust, I have perverted that gift. I desperately need God's grace. I need his Holy Spirit to change me to live a sexually pure life. And that's not easy for me. That's hard. When anybody ever says to me, cliff, I was born this way, I often look them in the face and say, yeah, I was born a heterosexual male. Do you think my heterosexual sex drive motivates me to have sex with Just one woman. And I'm waiting for the guys to laugh.
- [40:40]
F
I'm guessing not.
- [40:40]
D
Yeah, eventually they do laugh.
- [40:42]
B
Yeah.
- [40:42]
D
Obviously we heterosexual males do not have a sex right to have sex with just one woman. Instead, we have to exercise self control, make a commitment to just one woman, and then enjoy sex within the context of a lifelong commitment. That's marriage. So I communicate that as clearly as I can to people. They don't like what they hear. And it's fascinating, Tucker, over the past 45 years, to watch the gay lesbian groups on university campuses around the United States become the most highly organized, the most passionate groups on campus. I think that's changing, though, recently, and I'm so excited over that. But there has been a clear agenda, a very clear agenda.
- [41:17]
B
And I, I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn. I can say after nine years of marriage, never thought about going outside of my marriage as, like, like, in the sense of an affair. Never really occurred to me. Never was super tempted to sleep with someone in the church who I was, like, who I thought was pretty. There's such a separation between, oh, that person's physically attractive and, oh, my God, I have to really fight my flesh to want to sleep with them. And I. Again, I'm not trying to sound morally superior here, but, like, is it that hard for you, Cliff? Like, is it really that hard where you're fighting against your own flesh every day not to sleep with other women who isn't your spouse? I, I'm ten years in now. Has not been, like, has not really been in the forefront of my mind, frankly.
- [42:09]
A
But they, they say that in such a, like, condescending way. Totally. Like, well, I have to die to my flesh, so you should just be alone forever. What they're saying to gay people, like, you just need to completely ignore who you are, ignore your natural desires, because sometimes I want to cheat on my wife, but I don't. We're the same. Like, that is not the same. Like, that is fundamentally, like, you're still able to have a sex life with your spouse, even if it's so terrible. I don't know why you're admitting that.
- [42:45]
B
Right.
- [42:46]
A
But, but like, and also, it's just disingenuous too, like, the way that they talk about marriage. Like, well, it has to be between one man and one woman because that's how you procreate. That's, that's God's, you know, be fruitful and multiply. But that completely dismisses the amount of, of people that are unable to have children.
- [43:03]
B
Right.
- [43:03]
A
For one.
- [43:04]
B
Right.
- [43:04]
A
And then also, this is a part that is heavily ignored by male Christians and females. But. But males, especially women, were given a little button whose entire purpose and existence of this piece of anatomy is pleasure. I'm just saying.
- [43:27]
B
I don't know what you're talking about.
- [43:29]
A
If God only wanted sex.
- [43:31]
B
Right, right.
- [43:32]
A
For. For the sake of procreation, why do I have the ability to be pleasured without any baby being involved, without any possibility? Like, God put that there. I didn't put it there. I was born with that.
- [43:49]
B
Well, yeah. So here's the framework.
- [43:51]
D
Right.
- [43:51]
B
And this is, again, very common. First, they start out with, well, we don't want to bash gay people. Which, of course, flies in the face of their own tradition. This is what the Moral Majority did. This is what people still do in that world. And we'll get into a clear example of that in a second.
- [44:06]
A
Can I just say, I do appreciate that. I do think that's better than just calling them abominations. But in some ways, it's sneakier because it's this bait and switch where they say, well, we want to welcome all people of the community because you should have never been bashed. You should have never been hated. On. We don't hate you. We love you. We want you to come here and completely change everything about you.
- [44:32]
B
Yes. You know, it's like the sweetest poison. Sure. Don't bash gay people, but also argue against their right to marriage. Tell people why, in order to be Christian, they have to give up their entire sexual identity. Like, look, I am not a celibate man. I could not be a celibate man. Couldn't I have a sex drive? I'm heterosexual. There are people who have a sex drive who are lgbtq. And you're right. Cliff is essentially saying, well, I get to have a lifelong committed relationship with someone and spend my life with that person and be romantic with them and have them be my best friend and have sex with them. But guess what? You can't do that because. Because of how I interpret the Bible. To be clear, the Bible has many examples of polygamy. There's a great book, by the way, by Jennifer Byrd. Dr. Jennifer Byrd, marriage in the Bible. What do the texts say? And she makes some great points that, first off, even the term husband and wife don't exist in the original languages at all. It's always man or woman. And the idea is that a man takes a woman. The entire framework of how the Bible thinks about marriage is foreign to a Western AUDIENCE There are not many, if any, love based marriages in the Hebrew Bible. At least I'm pretty sure in the New Testament as well, it's all about Jacob marries his two cousins, for crying out loud. Do we, do we emulate that as a biblical marriage? So the whole thing is on the house of cards, but it's designed to reinforce this heterosexual ideal of one man, one woman for life. But also, April, you're supposed to vote for the man on his third marriage because that's a biblical worldview. Right? This is. These are the, the gymnastics that are created in your head when you're a youth group kid. When you're a young adult, okay, I have to stay pure for marriage. I can't let my gay neighbor be married, even though it doesn't affect my life at all because the Bible's clear. But also, if I don't vote for Trump, I'm probably a liberal heretic who no longer has a biblical worldview. Yeah, the math don't math.
- [46:35]
F
Hey, everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content, and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt safe, seen or been challenged to grow, head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.
- [47:26]
B
Okay, we're almost done. A few more clips here and there's still a doozy coming in. There's a doozy. Oh, goodness. All right, here we go.
- [47:33]
D
I'm convinced that to spread Christianity, I must not kill others, but be willing to die for my faith to be killed. And that's exactly what happened in the first, second, third century.
- [47:43]
F
Yes, big time.
- [47:44]
D
And when Christianity got political power, whoa. Things got really difficult, really perverted, really fast.
- [47:52]
B
Yeah, Cliff, true. Great point. Now look around. Now. Take that idea. Look around at what's happening in America. Look at what federal agents are doing in Minneapolis and all across the country. Just take a look and look who's supporting that. And then ask Yourself. Are we repeating what you just said happened centuries ago? Just. Just food for thought.
- [48:16]
D
As followers of Christ, we have to be very, very careful about power. We need to use it. It's a gift from God. It's a good gift from God, but we better have that same degree of skepticism that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that minister, no, let's not pray that God is on our side. Let's pray that we are on God's side. And that's one of the reasons that I respect a guy like Charlie Kirk. He does not buy into crucial nationalism. We're the best nation's number one America.
- [48:38]
B
Okay, I pulled the clip here when he said that. Here's. So Cliff says, you know, Charlie does not buy into the narrative that we're number one, that we're the best country on earth, because God, here's. Here's the reality.
- [48:48]
A
Yeah. And obviously, I just want to point out, too, this interview was before Charlie Kirk was murdered.
- [48:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, Right.
- [48:54]
F
Here we go.
- [48:55]
D
We're the best nation's number one America.
- [48:57]
B
Is the greatest country ever to exist.
- [49:00]
D
He understands Christ is number one. And now we better get off our backsides and help make this country more serious about following Christ in our policies, in the way we do business. And I think that's awesome. I think that's absolutely fantastic.
- [49:13]
B
But again, the assumption is not actually following the teachings of Jesus. Right. Making America more Christ, like, whatever that even means. I'm assuming through policy in this case or through culture would look like a more empathetic, loving nation that welcomes immigrants, that welcomes people who are not like us, who. Who. Who loves the, you know, the story of the Good Samaritan and applies it to our cultural moment. Right. You would expect a world of America where we believe that the rich could not enter the kingdom without selling all their stuff, and maybe we'd start taxing billionaires more. That is not what Cliff is saying. Remember, LGBTQ issues are key. Abortion, immigration. And where you land on that is essential. He's on Tucker Carlson's podcast, My friends. We all know where he lands.
- [50:01]
A
I think it's interesting, too, him having that opinion of Charlie Kirk when Charlie Kirk has said the exact opposite things. I think just shows, too, how so many people that are pushing Charlie Kirk as this martyr, as this Christian saint. I think really don't fully understand what Charlie Kirk stood for. What Charlie Kirk said. Like, we could pull clip after clip after clip of Charlie Kirk. Now, he wouldn't have overtly said, I'm a Christian nationalist. This is What I. Although he may have.
- [50:34]
B
I don't remember, he's been pretty dang close. I mean, he's pretty much said, I'm a Christian and I'm a nationalist. I love my nation.
- [50:40]
A
Right. But he's. He definitely pushes Christian nationalist ideology. He wants America to be a Christian nation, and he wants to. To do that through laws and policy, through force like that. That was what he stood for. And the idea that he was going around just spreading the gospel is just.
- [50:57]
B
Not true for any of the listeners who have followed my work with the New Evangelicals or Tim and April Show. You know, I have been to America Fest. I have listened to hours of speeches. I have met Charlie Kirk. It is wild to hear the. To hear Cliff say what he says. Think about this. Cliff a couple minutes ago said that he does not. That he does not support bashing gay people, calling them abominations, whatever it was. Charlie said that being transgender is a middle finger to God. Charlie Kirk has said some of the most dehumanizing stuff about queer people that you can imagine. He's also said stuff about black women, about. About black pilots, about prowling blacks. Somehow Cliff can look past all of that and go, you know, Charlie Kirk, man, that's. That's like the standard for me.
- [51:41]
E
And.
- [51:41]
B
And he didn't believe in that. America was the best. Play the clip. No, of course he did. Again, these are the people who will tell you that they have truth on their side, that they are standing in the realm of objectivity, but they ignore what's right in front of them. I don't know how Cliff thinks what he's saying is coherent, given all the evidence of who Charlie Kirk was, what his organization stands for, the people that speak at Turning Point USA's America Festival, for crying out loud, Steve Bannon got on stage two years ago, called Nikki Haley as ambitious as Lucifer. The crowd started chanting Tucker Carlson or Tucker. They. He thought they were yelling F her. He cheered it on. And then a worship band got on after that to sing songs to Jesus. And Cliff thinks that Charlie's organization, and Charlie is somehow advocating for Christian ideals here, the teachings of Christ, I do not understand it. I just don't get it.
- [52:35]
A
This is how. When you're in this world. And so I do think there are people in, at the head of this movement that have a lot of power, that are probably bad faith actors, that they have to know that they are manipulating a lot of people and using Christianity to do it.
- [52:50]
B
Yeah.
- [52:51]
A
But I do think there are a lot of people And I don't. I don't know which one Cliff is. I don't know inside his head or his heart. But there are a lot of people who have convinced themselves that God's view and the biblical worldview is the conservative agenda. Like, they genuinely believe that. I believed that, you know, and. And so when you genuinely believe that, you can be very, very convincing when you're talking to thousands and thousands of young people, you know, and. And you. And you can feel good about it. You can sleep well at night because you still think you're doing the right thing, despite the huge amounts of harm that your position is causing to marginalized groups of people, to the people that Christ called us to love and to take care for. Like, you find ways to say, well, it's part of a greater good, or, you know, and. And they look at who God was in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, there's this violence about him. And then they look at Revelation where they believe Jesus is going to come back and be violent.
- [53:52]
B
Right.
- [53:52]
A
And they are able to justify violence 100%.
- [53:57]
B
Now, you're. You're spot on. There's one more clip we'll play, and then we'll wrap it up. But I think this part is really important. So, Cliff a second ago mentioned Christian nationalism. Tucker wants to pick up on that thread. Here's what he says.
- [54:09]
F
There's a huge. Use the phrase Christian nationalism, which is. I hate this term. But a hot button phrase.
- [54:14]
C
Yep.
- [54:15]
F
But never really defined. So people.
- [54:17]
D
That's right.
- [54:17]
F
Can impute whatever meaning they want.
- [54:18]
D
Exactly.
- [54:20]
F
And the meanings differ greatly. So if by Christian nationalism, you mean you try to make it a more Christian country, that's what you just advocated for.
- [54:26]
D
Right.
- [54:27]
F
If it means put a religious leader in charge of the country and make a state religion, that's an entirely different meaning. Which you oppose.
- [54:33]
D
Beautifully put.
- [54:34]
F
Right. So I couldn't agree with you more. Christian nationalism, I think its critics mean any effort to make it a more Christian country.
- [54:41]
D
Correct.
- [54:42]
F
Right. And so I'm opposed to the critics of Christian nationalism. I'm against the state religion.
- [54:46]
D
Yep. Same here.
- [54:47]
F
Good. Okay, good.
- [54:48]
B
I.
- [54:48]
C
Sorry, just.
- [54:49]
F
But that's one of those phrases that just, like, evokes all kinds of connotations that you may not have meant.
- [54:54]
D
So I just wanted to put a.
- [54:55]
F
Finer point on it.
- [54:56]
D
And remember, it's.
- [54:58]
A
That's like. That's like tomato, tomato. Totally like, oh, I'm again, I'm totally for making America more Christian, but I'm against a state religion.
- [55:11]
B
How does a nation become more Christian? And like, what kind of. Okay, riddle me this, Tucker. If we had. I'm just using examples here. These are not real things. If we had a majority Muslim population inside of our government, do you think we'd become a more Christian nation? No, you need Christians, Christian fundamentalist supremacists like these guys in American politics to make America more Christian through law. Right? This is why, this is why. What's his name in Oklahoma, Ryan Walters wanted the Ten Commandments posted in public schools. This is why he wanted the Bible taught. They want a state run religion. That's what they want to happen.
- [55:55]
A
But it's semantic because they would say, but we are not going to go around and force you to be Christian. We're just going to force you to obey Christian laws. And they find the fine line where they can say, well, see, we're not Christian nationalists. But again, they believe all good morality comes from God. So they've convinced themselves that making America more Christian will be better for everybody because that's, that's only where morality can come from. Only from Christian laws.
- [56:23]
B
Now, April, you.
- [56:24]
A
The same fine line where there's, where he says, I'm not going to tell you to vote for a conservative, to vote for the conservative agenda or the liberal agenda.
- [56:33]
F
Right.
- [56:34]
A
But for God's agenda. But, but the fine line is that is. You mean the conservative agenda.
- [56:41]
B
Wink, wink. April, you wrote a book about Christian nationalism, right?
- [56:45]
A
I sure did, Tim.
- [56:46]
B
Okay.
- [56:47]
A
Did you define Jesus?
- [56:49]
B
Did you define Christian nationalism in your book?
- [56:52]
A
I absolutely did.
- [56:53]
B
What, Wait, are you saying that there are like, are there scholars on Christian nationalism who are doing the hard work to define what it means and what it doesn't mean?
- [57:03]
A
Right. I mean, at a very basic level, it is a, it is a conflation of a theological belief and a political ideology.
- [57:11]
B
It sounds, I, I can't track with that. I mean, everyone's making up definitions these days. I mean, you heard Tucker, there's no definition.
- [57:19]
A
You are trying to impose laws based on your Christian beliefs. That is Christian nationalism.
- [57:27]
B
We should be a little more. Fine point, though. We're not talking about, for example, like you and I are Christians. We think universal healthcare should be a thing because we think that we should take care of the sick as Christ commands us to. Christian nationalism is a very specific type of Christianity that believes in a fundamentalist and supremacist takeover of the country to make it more white Christian nationalist. There's a distinction here for sure, because, because we believe as Christians, as Christians that our neighbors has. Have the right to worship how they Want. Without any infringement. They can live their life, they can get married to, they want to get married to, et cetera. That's not what Christian nationalism believes. There's a major, you know, schism between the two.
- [58:13]
A
Yeah, well, and if you look at the definition of nationalism, too, it's. It is. It's different from patriotism. Patriotism is just love of country and wanting the best for your country. Nationalism is wanting the best for your country to the detriment of all other countries where you're elevating one nation to the other, that your nation is the best and therefore deserves everything, and therefore deserves to invade Venezuela and take their.
- [58:35]
B
Oil like maybe Greenland or, you know, who knows, who knows where else, Right?
- [58:39]
A
So when you put Christian in front of it, it's. Christian nationalism is the elevation of one ideology to the detriment of all others. No one else is welcome to the table unless you share that ideology. Whereas you can be a Christian and support policies, but you're willing to listen to other people, you're willing to elevate other people. You're willing to understand that there are other beliefs and they are just as valid as your own beliefs. There is a certain level of supremacy to Christian nationalism where. And it also values the oppressor over the oppressed.
- [59:15]
B
Right? I mean, it wants to maintain the status quo. Ultimately. It doesn't believe in democratic principles. It's not looking to work together with other people. You know, look, we believe in democracy, right? Obviously, our ideas. Ideas have to be wrestled through. We have to always think about our laws and our. Our ethics, et cetera. That's not so much what Christian nationalists are here to do, frankly, but we all know that because you guys listen to the show, so you're well aware.
- [59:37]
A
So we wanted to point all this out. Can you pull. You have that sweet screenshot of, oh, the one other place that. So when we were talking about this, and obviously they're talking about how they're. They're not Christian nationalists, but they want America to be more Christian, which is just a weird sentence. Weird thing to say. I Googled quickly. I was like, I'm pretty sure Charlie Kirk has talked about America is. Is a Christian nation, which is. Which is a belief system with a belief within Christian nationalism. And so I Googled it. The first clip again, first clip. This is from Charlie Kirk's YouTube channel. It says, full viral clip. America is a Christian nation. That's like five minutes long. He talks about how America is a Christian nation. But for the podcast audience, you can't see but look who's at the table. There he is, Charlie Kirk.
- [60:26]
B
Cliff, our boy Cliff. He's right there.
- [60:29]
A
Who doesn't want to push a conservative agenda, right? He just wants to push God's agenda.
- [60:34]
B
That's right.
- [60:34]
A
And here he is with Charlie Kirk. We just saw him with Tucker Carlson. And that's why we want to show you how insidious and sneaky Christian nationalism is. It. It can come in this package of just good old Christianity. Look, we actually are not pushing conservatives, conservativism. We're not pushing liberalism. We're not pushing you to vote for any certain way. We just want you to vote for God's way. And it says this little pretty package. And then all those young people, they take that package, are like, yeah, I'm just gonna vote for God's way. And isn't it funny how it just happens to be for conservatives? And then you conflate the two. Now, Republicanism equals Christianity, and that is Christian nationalism.
- [61:20]
B
That's how it's done. That's how the system works. And the more you understand, the better you can expose it, the better you can understand the logic behind this. You can understand how people get radicalized. April and I went through this pipeline. It's very compelling. When you're inside of it, it's very compelling. And it's not until you get more curious beyond what the boundaries in front of you tell you what you can do, do you kind of start to maybe see that, oh, maybe I'm actually, like, in a deep, dark, cold, damp basement and there's something above ground that is, you know, better for me. Or maybe I'm more curious about, because this is what it comes down to. It's a very compelling worldview. When you're inside the bubble, you have your worship artists, you have your music, you have your. Your glam. You have your cool and hip people. You have your compelling speakers. They try and sound objective, even though they're incredibly biased, which is. It's fine. We all have our biases, but just be honest about it. And then before you know it, you're googling a guy named Cliff and you're finding him on Tucker Carlson. And you're going, oh, wait, Tucker also interviewed Andrew Tate. He also interviewed Nick Fuentes. He also interviewed this bro. I'm kind of curious. And before you know it, you're down this pipeline of, yeah, yeah, maybe Mussolini wasn't that bad. You know, Nick likes this guy. Nick's. Nick thinks Hitler's pretty cool. What can go wrong? I mean, people might laugh. Think that. That's so extreme. That's the pipeline. That's the pipeline. How you go from Carrie Jobe in a worship service down to this world on the Internet of the alt. Right. It's not that hard to fall into. It's not?
- [62:43]
A
No. It's actually. It's very easy to get sucked into this world and to be indoctrinated into this world, and it's hard to get out of it once you've bought in.
- [62:52]
B
Yeah.
- [62:53]
A
But hopefully more and more people will start waking up. I mean, hopefully. Yeah.
- [62:59]
B
Anyway, yeah, friends, we'd love to hear your comments for sure. And we always read the comments. It's really helpful for us to know if this kind of content is helpful for you, to educate you just on how this world works. We always like your feedback. If you're listening on podcasts, you can email us the timaprilshow thenewevangelicals.com always like to hear your feedback. So that's all I got for today. How about you? You good, April?
- [63:19]
A
Yep, dandy.
- [63:21]
B
Sweet. Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [63:23]
A
I'm April Ajoy.
- [63:25]
B
Talk to you next time.
- [63:26]
E
See ya.