81. Persecution or Protest? The MAGA Pearl Clutching Continues

Summary

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The Tim & April Show

Episode 81: Persecution or Protest? The MAGA Pearl Clutching Continues

Date: January 23, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Podcast: The New Evangelicals

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Overview

In this charged episode, Tim and April untangle a week of intense events at the intersection of faith, politics, and culture, focusing largely on the recent ICE activities in Minnesota, the controversial protest at Cities Church in St. Paul, and the ensuing Christian persecution narrative in MAGA circles. The hosts provide insight into Christian nationalism, the realities of state-sanctioned violence, and the deep history of racism and complicity within American Christianity, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention. The episode balances emotional testimony, fact-checks, raw reactions, and honest debate about protest tactics in an era of rising authoritarianism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: ICE Raids & Dehumanization (05:00–16:35)

• The show opens with Tim and April acknowledging widespread trauma and calls from their audience about ICE’s conduct in Minnesota, especially targeting nonwhite, immigrant communities.
• April contextualizes current events in the history of American oppression—slavery, indigenous removal, internment camps—underscoring that "oppression in America is not new." (04:20)
• Tim emphasizes the shock of seeing these events supported by faith communities that once preached compassion:

  “I can't believe that my faith tradition is the largest faith tradition that's responsible for what's happening in America today.” (06:12)

• Hosts roll an unedited, gut-wrenching montage of ICE raids, highlighting children traumatized, people carried away, and parents desperate for their families.
• A particularly emotional segment features a child recounting anti-immigrant bullying at a soccer game:

  “He said Trump is going to get me and send me back to where I used to live. And I was born in America. I don't live anywhere else. … It makes me really sad that how they just control their power like that.” (09:35–10:40)

• April and Tim stress:

  “We're not trying to manipulate your emotions. You cannot deny the overwhelming amount of video footage ... ICE is acting lawlessly.” (15:40)

2. The Protest at Cities Church: Facts vs. Narrative (16:35–32:41)

• Protest targeted Cities Church because one of its pastors, David Easterwood, is also the ICE Field Director for the Midwest region (MN, ND, SD, IA, NE).
• Footage is played showing Easterwood both as ICE director and forgiving sins as church pastor; hosts underscore the moral and theological disconnect:

  “He is not just some grunt worker. He is directing these things.” (19:43)

• April details the protest: led by four Black women (two arrested), it was nonviolent but loud—no vandalism, no threats—yet immediately framed by MAGA and federal officials as a criminal attack.
• Pam Bondi’s tweet is read aloud:

  “We do not tolerate attacks on places of worship” (22:00)
  Hosts immediately contrast with multiple incidents of ICE themselves violating sanctuaries: “What about all these churches that have been stormed by ICE agents… It's obvious where your priorities lie.” (22:41)

3. Dissecting the Christian Persecution Narrative (32:41–56:09)

• Audio interview with protest co-organizer Nekima Levy Armstrong clarifies:
  The protestors attended the service, waited until pastor prayed for the church to “get our house in order,” then asked, “How is David Easterwood a pastor here and also a director of ICE?”

  “How can you serve as a pastor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ while overseeing the brutal conduct of ICE agents who are literally terrorizing communities in the Twin cities of Minnesota?” (30:17–31:44)

• April and Tim connect the dots: this is not isolated; the black church’s legacy of prophetic protest emerges in opposition to a white church too often allied with state violence and segregation.
• History of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)—the denomination Cities Church belongs to—is reviewed as rooted in the defense of slavery and hierarchical, patriarchal theology (34:00).
• Discussion highlights:

  “Is it any surprise that… we have a SBC church that has a pastor who works for an arm of the state that is kidnapping brown-skinned people and killing unarmed citizens?” (35:34)

4. Media Spin & Fact-Checking (Don Lemon Segment) (41:31–52:13)

• Don Lemon’s interview with a white church congregant exposes the “both sides” fallacy and a stubborn refusal to engage with facts:

  Congregant: “There are facts on both sides.”
  Don Lemon: “That is the interesting thing… they won't listen to facts.” (44:32)

• Hosts debunk myths:
  • No proof Joe Biden let in “12 million immigrants.” (Actual number of undocumented immigrants in US: ~10.9 million; not all newly arrived.)
  • Most detained by ICE have no criminal convictions (CATO Institute stat cited).
  • ICE’s conduct is neither targeted nor humane.

5. The Pastor’s Response & Theological Gymnastics (52:33–55:26)

• Don Lemon confronts Pastor Jonathan Parnell, who says:

  “It's shameful to interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship… We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these Cities, that’s the hope of the world.”

• Tim observes:

  “It is interesting how he says, we're here to spread the love of Jesus. And yet… one of the pastors… is leading a federal agency that is literally terrorizing its neighbors.” (54:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American complicity and disassociation:

  “You would think, would never tolerate or support what's happening now... how are they getting behind this stuff and justifying it in some of the most, frankly, ludicrous ways imaginable?” (06:12)

• ICE director-pastor David Easterwood, in his own words:

  “Their work is critical to the security of the United States. And I am proud to lead such an outstanding team … Church, you have confessed your sins. Now hear the good news … in Jesus Christ, your sins are forgiven.” (18:24–19:26)

• Protestor/organizer Nekima Levy Armstrong:

  “We are unapologetic about going into the church ... How is David Easterwood a pastor here and also a director of ICE in St. Paul?” (30:17–31:44)

• On the Christian persecution narrative:

  “...Christians are the most persecuted religious group in America. And it's not even close.” – William Wolfe, white nationalist (63:10)

• On ICE using a 5-year-old as bait:

  “Liam and his father had just arrived home when they were detained … An agent had taken Liam out of the car, led the boy to his front door and directed him to knock ...to see if anyone else was home. Essentially using a five year old as bait.” (57:06)

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Analytical Highlights & Context

• Double Standard on Persecution: Hosts repeatedly point out how the right only decries government overreach when their community is “threatened,” otherwise remaining silent or supportive when government agents (ICE) violate basic human rights or sacred spaces of others.
• Theological Justification as a Tool of State Violence: Tim details how Christian Nationalism, rooted in white evangelical theology, helps believers justify cruelty in the name of “law and order.” (52:28–52:55)
• Pragmatic Debate About Protest: April voices anxiety about how the protest might be weaponized in propaganda, but both ultimately agree that “trying to tiptoe around MAGA persecution narratives is futile—they will always claim victimhood regardless.” (65:00–73:39)
• Historical Parallels: Both liken the situation to past Christian complicity in Jim Crow, lynching, and segregation, underlining that protest, disruption, and prophetic witness have always been necessary tools of justice.
• Hope and Exhaustion: The episode closes with personal reflections on the psychological toll of activism and maintaining hope. Citing MLK, April reminds listeners:

  “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” (78:53)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• ICE Video Montage & Discussion: 08:46–16:35
• Introduction of Pastor/ICE Director & Protest Details: 17:20–24:06
• Protest Organizer Interview (Nekima Levy Armstrong): 29:53–32:41
• Don Lemon Confronts Churchgoer: 41:31–46:43
• Don Lemon Confronts Pastor: 52:33–53:33
• SBC History & Legacy: 32:41–36:03
• Persecution Narrative & Twitter Response: 55:38–65:00
• Personal Reflection & Hope: 77:24–79:39

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Tone and Language

• Passionate, direct, and at times emotionally raw—hosts alternate between sorrow, anger, frustration, and dark humor.
• Frequent use of rhetorical questions for self-examination and shaking listeners out of complacency.
• Unapologetically critical of Christian nationalism and the “both sides” approach to truth.
• Strong emphasis on facts, sources, and lived ethical context (not just “theology in a vacuum”).

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Concluding Thoughts

Tim and April frame the Cities Church protest and subsequent “Christian persecution” outcry as emblematic of broader spiritual, political, and moral crisis in American Christianity. They urge vigilance, solidarity, and action in the face of state violence, misinformation, and historical amnesia—always grounded in a faith of love, justice, and compassion that transcends party or nationalist agenda.

“We can’t negotiate with people who think that you’re demonic. That’s my point. And I don’t know what to do with that.” (73:39)

“That’s why we do this show... because we want to show up for people—and frankly, people show up for us.” (79:39)

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For full context, further resources, and community, visit The New Evangelicals.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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Per month when network is busy.

[B]

See terms. This is the Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I am April.

[A]

I am Tim. Welcome in friends. Hope you're all hanging in there. We have a very, very, very full show today. We are all seeing the same news that you are all seeing. We're covering what's happening in Minneapolis where we're talking about what happened at City's church. We'll get to that in a minute. Thank you so much for being here. As always, if you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to like this stream. It helps get it pushed out to more people. Make sure you're subbed to our YouTube channel. And if you're watching on substack. Hello, everyone. Smash that heart button. I think it helps. It makes us feel good. Good to see you all. Thanks for being here. Yeah, just punch your phone real hard.

[B]

So aggressive. Smash it.

[A]

Did I ever tell you, April, I used to work for Apple? I used to work like in the retail stores.

[B]

No, you don't say.

[A]

Okay, that's how we're starting off the show. Just like that, huh?

[B]

Yes, yes. You have told me you used to work for Apple. As an Android user. You bring it up a lot.

[A]

It's been a minute. Let's be real now. I've toned it down recently, okay? But I say that because I had a random thought with the term smash the like button. Did I ever tell you that I worked as a technician for a little bit as well in their store? So you would get people with, you know, all the problems, right? You know, the screens cracked, whatever it is. Usually people understood if your phone was out of warranty, there was a cost associated with the repair, et cetera. Every now and then you get someone who would throw like a legitimate fit in the store. And I have had it happen before where people have thrown their phone across the Store into the glass windows.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

So speaking of smashing the like button, don't do that to your phone. But it has happened to me quite a few times. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Guys, that's aggressive.

[A]

Aggressive people.

[B]

How have you. How have you lived?

[A]

Barely. Barely survived. I'm still in therapy from all the trauma.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I don't mean to mock your time at Apple. I know it was a very dear time of your life.

[A]

This is so random, but I still have occasional dreams about working there. I really did as far as the job went. Truly loved it. I'm kind of a tech guy. I'm a tech nerd. And working for Apple was great, except for the fact that it was retail hours and I just could not get around at some point working weekends, I couldn't do it. So that's why I stopped.

[B]

You know what's so funny? So I played basketball all, like, through college, and I still sometimes will have nightmares where I miss a free throw. It's weird, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, it's weird how this stuff, like, stays in your head. I mean, I haven't worked for Apple probably close to a decade, I think, or close to that, you know, you're talking about college. It is. It's weird how those memories every now and then make their way into your dreams, you know?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, the stress. Well, speaking of stress.

[A]

Oh, good segue. Good job. Well done.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, God. Have we talked about ICE the last, like, three weeks? I feel like it is.

[A]

It's a major. I mean, look, what's happening with ICE is a major story because what's happening is, like, at least in our lifetime, as far as I'm aware, pretty much unprecedented in terms of scope and just blatant dehumanization of a certain type of person. Right. So, yeah, it's been on our mind. It's. It's. I've been talking about it on my personal channels. TN's been talking about it, the new evangelicals. I mean, it's. It's been. It's just out there, man. It's wild. And today is no exception. So there's a lot to get to. There's a lot to get to.

[B]

Yeah. So it's definitely unprecedented in that. I, in my lifetime haven't seen anything. I do think, like, it's fair to point out that America, historically, yes, has done this to non white people a lot. I mean, slavery, Jim Crow laws, I mean, just. Even. Even just the, you know, what we did to indigenous people. So it's not like Oppression in America is not new.

[A]

It's kind of a feature. Right. I mean, we created concentration camps for the Japanese, threw them into concentration camps. So you're right. And that's why I'm clear in. I say our lifetime. Right. Because I'm not aware of this happening in my lifetime. But it's not. It's not, like, unprecedented in American history, that's for sure.

[B]

Right. So. But. But. So what we try to do on our show is we're not a news show. We can't cover everything, but we want to highlight things that are really being talked about or are important to Christian nationalism and kind of decode that for people that maybe don't come from that world or have loved ones who are in this world and may not even realize it. To just kind of just show what. What's happening. And also to know you're not alone, because I know there are a lot of Christians out there who are not maga, who feel like you're going crazy because what your parents are saying, what your pastors are saying. So we, you know, just. You're not. You're not crazy.

[A]

I was. I was just going to say that I think it. There are a lot of people watching this who feel that way. They feel like they're going crazy because the churches that they were raised in would, you would think, would never tolerate or support what's happening now. And you're wondering what happened to your Sunday school teacher, what happened to your parents, what happened to your pastor? How are they getting behind this stuff and justifying it in some of the most, frankly, ludicrous ways imaginable? So I was just gonna re. Emphasize what you said. Like, yeah, I would imagine a lot of us, including you and me, April, consistently are like, how. What? I can't believe that my faith tradition is the largest faith tradition that's responsible for what's happening in America today.

[B]

Yeah. So one thing we wanted to really highlight today, and this is going to be our main story, we are going to talk about ice, and we're going to play a montage to lead up to our main story. But there was a protest at a church on Sunday, and it has been turned into this Christian persecution narrative. And a lot of MAGA Christians, Christian nationalists, those on the right, are sprinting away with the idea that they're being persecuted. So we wanted to break this story down because the right is running with a narrative that is not. Is not really true, which is not surprising. So we just want to break it down, get to the facts. What Exactly. All happened. What led up to this is. Was what happened persecution, as they claim. And just let's discuss it.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, we're going to do that for sure. Thanks for being here, friends. Also, we got a few super chats in. We'll read those in a minute. All super chats on YouTube help support the show. So thank you so much. Any amount really helps make this possible. And this show is produced by the New Evangelicals. It's a nonprofit organization that I founded in 2020, now run by Melinda Hale. For people looking for a better path forward in faith as Christians, I recommend checking them out. TheNewsEvangelicals.com is a great place to see all of our resources. We do a lot of social media content. We do this show. We have other podcasts, so check it out. It's a great resource. So we're going to play to kind of set the stage. We are going to play a montage of some of the footage of what ICE has been doing in Minneapolis mostly and kind of, you know, around the country. I just want to warn you, this is a longer montage. April and I were talking about it in pre show prep, and we decided that it's really important that we don't edit it down and that we let it play. Trigger Warning. It's upsetting footage. It's unbelievable footage, but it's really worth playing because we want you to have this footage in the back of your mind as we're going through what happened at this church and the broader Christian nationalist narrative that they're currently pushing. So we're going to actually get off camera, we're going to play this montage, and then we'll come back. Here we go. This is what ICE has been doing over the past few weeks, really, around the country, but mostly in Minnesota.

[B]

Hey, anybody else?

[A]

Join us. You guys don't have rights.

[B]

What's your name?

[A]

What's your name?

[B]

I'm not your US Citizen. I'm not your US Citizen.

[A]

Get the out of here.

[B]

Why are you kidnapping our citizens? Why are you crying?

[A]

Where is your phone number?

[B]

At least let us give us information.

[A]

About his family, at least. Oh, you're strengthy.

[B]

What's your name? What's your name?

[A]

Christian. What's your name?

[B]

Christian.

[A]

Where the is the paperwork? How is this?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Why are you guys not answering the question? Yeah, record that.

[B]

Okay, Max, tell me again what the other player told you during games. So the goalkeeper in futsal, he said some really bad stuff to me, and it just made me get really emotional in my game. And I barely get emotional in soccer. And this guy told me I'm a, I'm an illegal immigrant, even though I was born in America. He said Trump is going to get me and sent me back to where I used to live. And I, I, I, I was born in America. I don't live, I don't live anywhere else. That he called me a effing be. And I just don't get why kids like to say those stuff. It, it makes me really sad that how they just control their power like that. They think they have power and it's just not nice. Sorry, Max.

[A]

So this happened on Sunday the 11th at a Speedway gas station in St. Paul, Minnesota. And I can't get the image of this man lifeless, being carried away like an animal by Border Patrol led by Greg Bovino. There's multiple angles of this incident. I'm going to share the information that I've gathered and I need you to please watch. It's really difficult video, but we need to bear witness and I need you to please share because we don't know what happened to him. We don't know if he's alive. We don't know where he is.

[B]

She's pregnant. And they got their knees on her.

[A]

With her stomach in the ground.

[B]

She's pregnant. She's pregnant.

[A]

Are you protecting him?

[B]

And that, that is a fraction of the videos. That does not even include Renee Goode, who was murdered a few weeks ago. That does not include the infant who was tear gassed. It was a family trying to get home from basketball practice. That's it. Yeah. ICE threw tear gas into their car, the baby stopped breathing. Their 6 month old would be rushed to the ER.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And, and we just wanted to include that one kid from the soccer game because what ICE is doing is going beyond the immigrant community and just their actual raids. But other kids are seeing how their parents are talking about other immigrants and are. And like anyone who's not white, brown kids, black kids, indigenous kids are being bullied by white kids. I don't, I don't understand how you can bear witness to what is happening and support ice.

[A]

Yeah. But you know, April, if you have these kinds of feelings, it's just your toxic empathy. Right. It's just you're just leading with your emotion. That's the narrative. And it's, it's obviously propaganda to get people to ignore what is right in front of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is, you know, it's one of these moments we're living in where history is going to tell the story Again. And people are gonna look back and go, man, how did so many people, especially Christians, support these actions? I mean, you and I talk about this all the time on the show. We look back at Jim Crow segregation and see all the white Christians who were. This is biblical. This is what we must do. And we're gonna fight integration and the federal government's imposing its will on us.

[B]

And.

[A]

And we go, what were they thinking? They're thinking what people like Ali Stuckey and Doug Wilson and all these other Christian nationalist types are thinking now. It's the same thing. They always create a legitimizing narrative that will justify why the dehumanization of certain types of people is okay, because they have hatred and bigotry in their hearts. That's the ultimate reality here. And it is heartbreaking. I mean, I'm with you. I mean, I'm tearing up too. I know you are. It's. I mean, we have kids. I have. I have a five year old hearing.

[B]

That kid scream for his mom. Like, I don't.

[A]

Yeah, it's brutal.

[B]

There's just. I don't. I don't even understand. It's hard for my brain, like my mama bear brain, to wrap my head around how anyone could be so cruel.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, especially. And, you know, we. We've mentioned this before, but the vast majority, it's like what I think you said 93% of the immigrants they're detaining have no violent criminal record whatsoever.

[A]

Yeah, that's according to the CATO Institute. Yes. 65 have no conviction. 93 have no violent conviction. Yeah, exactly. I'm with you all the way. I mean, I. I don't know.

[B]

It's. It's so.

[A]

It's terrifying.

[B]

And by the way, I just want.

[A]

To say that to the audience, we're not trying to. We're not trying to manipulate your emotions. We're not trying to feed you selective pieces of evidence to try and make you see things one way. You can, you can go on Instagram today. It's like.

[B]

It's like there's countless videos.

[A]

It's like April, when social media was flooded of video evidence of the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza. You couldn't look away, you couldn't ignore what was happening. Right. Because there was so much footage all over the place. It's the same thing here. You cannot deny the overwhelming amount of video footage from all over the country. But right now, in particular Minnesota, that paints this picture that ICE is acting lawlessly. They're acting on their racism. They're not training these people. We know all of this. So this is not selective, you know, cuts to try and make you feel a certain way. This is just a glimpse of what's actually happening on the ground.

[B]

Yeah, a very, very small glimpse.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So we wanted to give you that backdrop. So. And videos like this, these were just from Minnesota, but there's videos from this from all over the country from the past year that has been building up to this moment. So a protest happened at a church on Sunday. It's called Cities Church. In. Is it St. Paul?

[A]

St. Paul.

[B]

St. Paul. The lead pastor there is Jonathan Parnell. But one of the pastors there, and he's listed on the website, his name is Pastor David Easterwood, and he is the field director or the director of the region for the ICE Field agents.

[A]

Okay, so this is our website. We worship Jesus on the front cover. Just to be clear, Jesus was killed by state sanctioned violence as someone who was under the boot, a minority in the Roman Empire. Just keep that in mind. But yeah, on their leadership page here, I will show you all this, who are watching. So Jonathan Parnell is the lead pastor. And David Easterwood's down here. He's listed as a pastor. Now, we don't know if this means a paid pastor, if he's on staff, if he's just a volunteer pastor. In evangelicalism, the role pastor can mean a lot of different things. There are worship pastors. There are pastors for children.

[B]

There are.

[A]

There are pastors who just help out whenever needed.

[B]

You know, so outreach pastors, associate pastors.

[A]

Parking lot greener pastors. You know, there's a pastor for everything. But he is on the website listed as a pastor under the church leadership. This all very white church leadership, which I think is very white and very.

[B]

Male because this is a Southern Baptist church.

[A]

Yes, more on that in a minute. For sure, for sure.

[B]

Do you have the video of David? Okay, so we show this video.

[A]

Yep. Just to show some proof here that we're not making this up, here is David. It'll be kind of him as an ICE agent and then him as a pastor. My name is David Easterwood. I'm the acting field Office Director for enforcement removal operations, ERO St. Paul. I'm honored to lead the officers and staff of ICRO across Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa and Nebraska. The men and women of Ero Saint Paul embody the highest standards of professionalism, integrity and dedication. Every day they face complex challenges with determination and resolve, ensuring the safety of our communities and the enforcement of our nation's immigration laws. Their work is critical to the security of the United States. And I am proud to lead such an outstanding team church. You have confessed your sins. Now hear the good news. When we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Therefore, to all who humbly seek the mercy of God, I say to you in Jesus Christ, your sins are forgiven. There you go. There you go.

[B]

So he is in charge over all the ICE agents that we've seen in that area, in that region.

[A]

Right?

[B]

He's the director.

[A]

That's right. He's not just some grunt worker. He is directing these things.

[B]

Yes. And he's a pastor at this church, which is why there was this protest. And so we're going to show you video of this protest. So should we. You want to do the video of the protest first?

[A]

Yeah, it's about a minute long. This is just a montage of some of the footage. I think it gets a. Gives you guys a good example of what went down, at least from this video angle. If you're listening on podcast, I'm sorry, it's a little chaotic, but it is out here. So here's what happened this past Sunday at this city's church. By the way, David, during the service. Yeah, during the service. David Easterwood was not here. Lead pastor Jonathan Parnell was the one preaching. You'll see him on screen in a minute.

[B]

This is the house of God.

[A]

Why are you not at Whistle Protestant? Why are you not standing up with your.

[B]

To win? We have a duty to win.

[A]

Okay, there you go. So that's what happened.

[B]

That is what happened.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

There's been zero reports of any sort of damage to the building. There was no vandalism. The disruption. They were peaceful. And in that sense, they were just disruptive. They made noise and they walked in. The protest was led by four black women, two of which as of this morning, or just very recently, have been arrested. Now because Pam Bondi tweeted it out.

[A]

Yes, I have that here. This is important to highlight. So, you know, Pam Bondi oversees the doj or directs the, you know, DOJ and says minutes ago, at my direction, HSI HQ and FBI agents executed in the arrest of Minnesota. So far, we have arrested Nikima Levy Armstrong, who allegedly played a key role in organizing the coordinated, coordinated attack on city's church in St. Paul, Minnesota. We will share more updates as they become available. Listen loud and clear. We do not tolerate attacks on places of worship. Oh, do you. Do you now, bam. Auntie. Okay, I mean, can I share the other graphic that we have?

[B]

I mean, yeah.

[A]

What about all these churches that have been either stormed by ICE agents or ICE agents in the parking lot? ICE agents arresting clergy. Sorry, ICE agents arresting congregates and clergy. We have so many in April. You and I have covered this for months now of ICE agents attacking places of worship. In fact, there's even. I don't know if I have the graph in front of me. Actually. I know I do. Gimme a second. There's actually a story that came out from Minneapolis recently. Where is it? I have it here. Of a pastor who says I Two of my congregates were detained on the way to service. They have legal refugee status in the US And I still captured them. So, you know, when Pam Said says this, we don't tolerate attacks on places of worship. There's obviously something else beneath of this, right? What she means is. Not what she means. What she really means is we do not tolerate disrupted disruptions from quote unquote leftist Christians because Nakima is a reverend. We'll get into that in a minute. Who would disrupt the state sanctioned church that, that, that supports, and in this case has a pastor in its ranks who also is an ICE agent. That's what we're talking about here.

[B]

Yeah. And the Trump administration, we, we mentioned this, but they like went out of their way earlier last year. It was like one of the first things they did. January 21, 2025, is this article where it says Trump officials revoke Biden policy that barred ICE arrests near sensitive locations like schools and churches, meaning that ICE now has free reign to go into churches, which they have done. And there were a lot of pastors, there were some people that sued the Trump administration too, because they had like, members of their church that were scared to come to church because ICE was sitting out in the parking lot waiting on them 100%.

[A]

And by the way, you and I are very deep in the right wing media world, right. Did you see anyone say, hey, guys, this could be problematic? Hey, this feels like, like, like, you know, tyrannical government. Is the Trump administration going after churches now? No, not a peep. Not a peep. Now we both know if this was the Harris.

[B]

Not from maga.

[A]

There are a few other maga.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

If we, we know if this was the Harris administration, you know, Ali Stuckey and Matt Walsh and all Benny Johnson, this is the attack on religious liberty we told you was going to happen by this Marxist, this Marxist and extremist regime. But, you know, when Trump does it, when Trump rolls back protections for churches, it's totally cool. It's totally cool. It.

[B]

Hi, my name is Leonard Stevenson. The seeds of my deconstruction go back to 2016, but I started deconstructing in.

[A]

A big way from Christian fundamentalism in 2019.

[B]

Since then, I've been continually searching for more information and resources to help me understand the Bible and Christianity better. I first discovered the New Evangelicals podcast and Facebook group about a year ago and have found it to be a tremendously good resource for both information and for online community. Before encountering the New Evangelicals, my deconstruction.

[A]

Journey had been primarily intellectual.

[B]

It was through the New Evangelicals Facebook group that I began to slowly understand all the pain that so many were feeling coming from fundamentalism. This gradually opened my eyes to the systemic problems with fundamentalist theology that had always been there, but that had been nearly invisible to me before. Like others in the community, I'm still devoted to seeking God in the Christian tradition, but doing so in better ways. I continue to find the New Evangelicals to be good resource for doing this. Thank you.

[A]

It's unreal. It's unreal. Not to mention we have video of clergy getting hit in the head with pepper balls while peacefully protesting.

[B]

Yeah, just standing there. I was just shooting them.

[A]

It's obvious.

[B]

Also, Pam Bondi and the FBI have refused to open an investigation into the murder of Renee Good. That's right, investigation. And immediately, as soon as people walked into and made some noise in a church service, they're like, this is terrible. We have to arrest them within hours. And like, look how quickly they moved. Also, she also is still sitting on a bunch of Epstein files she's supposed to be releasing.

[A]

How much clearer can it be? I don't know if, like, moderate Christians listen to our show or if any MAGA people do, but, I mean, I mean this in the best way I can communicate it to you. How do you look at these decisions and think to yourself that you're on the right side of history? The Epstein files have not been released, even though there was a law passed by Congress to do so. We have pictures of Trump being all cozy with Jeffrey Epstein. We have him writing a birthday greeting outlining a woman's naked body in the signature. Right. But that's not a big deal. And also, we have the death of Renee Nicole Goode, who was unarmed and clearly turning away after ICE stopped her for no reason. And after an ICE agent called her an effing B as she Hit into a. Into another car. That ICE agent walked away, told someone else to call 91 1. They refused to open an investigation into that. But a few protesters disrupt a worship service whose church has a pastor, allegedly, maybe even on their staff that also works as an ICE agent. And you're already making arrests and you're already opening investigations. It's obvious where your priorities lie. It's obvious, like, it's clear as day. And I just don't know as a Christian, as a MAGA Christian or a moderate Christian or a conservative Christian, how you look at that and you go, man, this. This administration really is biblical. And, you know, embracing the fruit of the spirit, this is the right side of history. You're. You're. I'm sorry, you're not. You're on the wrong side of history again. It's discouraging.

[B]

Yeah. So Nikima Levi Armstrong, she did an interview. She was arrested today, but she did an interview. I don't. I think Tuesday, maybe sometime after this protest. And she kind of explains what actually happened because. I don't know, based on reports I was seeing from the right. They made it seem like people stormed in. Right, Right during the middle of the service.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. But apparently they actually were attending the service, and we're already in the service when. Well, let's just play the tape. She explains what. She explains what happened and how it.

[A]

Started, and then we'll read some super chats. Here we go.

[B]

We're joined by Nekima Levy Armstrong, Minneapolis based civil rights attorney, founder of the Racial Justice Network.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She's also an ordained reverend and a preacher. We welcome you back to Democracy Now. You're joining us today from an undisclosed location. If you can explain what happened on Sunday. A protest that you were a part of.

[A]

Yes. So, Amy, four black women activists and organizers planned Sunday's protest. And I was one of the four. And we are unapologetic about going into the church. We participated in the first part of the service, and the pastor prayed during the service. Dear God, please chasten us and help us to get our house in order. So when he was done praying, I stood up and I said, excuse me, Pastor, you just prayed this particular prayer? And he said, correct. And I said, well, help me understand. How is David Easterwood a pastor here and also a director of ICE in St. Paul? As soon as I mentioned David Easterwood's name, the pastor yells out, shame, shame. Over the microphone. It was clear that he didn't want to engage me in discussion about this in front of the congregation. Because he didn't want people in the congregation to know about this conflict of interest that David Easterwood has. How can you serve as a pastor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ while overseeing the. The brutal conduct of ICE agents who are literally terrorizing communities in the Twin cities of Minnesota? There you go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Later on in that interview too, she makes the point about ICE going into churches. She said, clearly the Trump administration could care less about the sanctity of a church. And she said, I believe that if someone professes to represent the gospel of Jesus Christ and to preach it, that they should not be allowing ICE agents to. ICE agents to drag people out of their homes, cut women out of seatbelts in their cars and drag them out, bust down doors, bust out car windows, bring people out half naked in the freezing cold to detain them, taking trophy pictures with black men and others that they've reprehended in their homes, scaring children, tear gassing children and families, almost killing a six month old through the use of high powered military grade weapons such as flashbang grenades and very strong tear gas. These are real things that we're dealing with here in the state of Minnesota. It's delusional to pretend that these aren't happening. And then she says, so why are people who are raising their voices on behalf of the vulnerable, on behalf of the poor, in the name of Jesus Christ, the ones being persecuted?

[A]

Yeah, I think it's worth highlighting, you know, for the, for our audience and I'm not sure the makeup of people who grew up in church or not, but this is, we're witnessing what has been happening a long time in American history. Between. And I'm going to kind of just be generic here, between largely like, like the white church and the black church. You know, the black church is born because the white church doesn't want black people worshiping with them. And that's how you have this other way of seeing things. You have this idea of black liberation theology and James cone, who developed this, this notion of look like Christ was crucified, Christ was innocent. Just like how so many of our black neighbors are being lynched innocently. And he makes this amazing theology that really becomes this liberative theology that MLK draws on, et cetera. At the same time, Christian fundamentalism starts really taking hold in white evangelical spaces. And that becomes your theology of segregation, of the people doing the lynchings, of the kkk, of the church, saying we have to protect, you know, law and order. And then you get the Jerry Falwells, you Get the Moral Majority. So, so there's a, there's a long tradition of what you just saw. It's not happening in a vacuum. And once again, we see a church. Right. That it has someone as a pastor that's also using or is also working for an agent of the state that is causing dehumanization and violence to its neighbors, especially towards brown skinned and other marginalized groups. Maybe this is a good time to say that this church city's church is part of the SPC Southern Baptist Convention. And the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest evangelical conglomerate in the world, I think, but definitely in America. And most people don't know, but the SPC is formed in 1845 because the Baptists as a whole start realizing, you know what, we should really be on the, we're on the wrong side of slavery. We should embrace abolitionism and embrace the notion that we should not be able to own our neighbor. But the SBC founders say no, no, we believe it is our God given right and that slavery is a good and just institution. Many of the founders of the SBC were actually slave owners themselves. So I, and that, that's, that is the, the major issue that launches the SBC and that's its foundation. So when you realize the history of the SBC and what it stands on, is it any surprise that 100 and what, I guess 80 years or something like that, you know, a couple of centuries later we have a SBC church that has a pastor that works for an arm of the state that is kidnapping brown skinned people and killing unarmed citizens. That's the legacy, that's the connection.

[B]

Not even to mention, SBC was also under federal investigation for widespread sexual abuse. Cover up.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like that was just a few years.

[A]

Ago, Decades of it. Like over 10 years. Yeah, yeah. So, so there, you know, again, I, we, we, we tell you all this, friends. So you're armed with information. So when you see these sound bites, it sounds like some arbitrary church, some random situation. No, no, no. There is a history underneath of this. Right. And we're still in the middle of that history today. It's still happening in real time.

[B]

Yeah. Also just the way the pastor responded to not even addressing what she said and just immediately shouting shame. Like you're supposed to be a shepherd. Of like, if you were, based on what I was taught, the position of the pastor is supposed to be, you're supposed to shepherd your flock. And also like you are a pastor, if someone comes into your church, that's an opportunity for you to be a witness to them. If, like, if. I mean, I'm assuming in his head he would assume they needed to be witness to, but just shouting shame at them and screaming at them back instead of. I don't know, it's just not. I can't imagine Jesus Christ would have responded in that way. Just. Just would have. From what I've. Whatever. In fact, I think there's a story about Jesus storming his own religious building.

[A]

Oh, no, no.

[B]

Jesus got a whip. Jesus. Those people didn't even have whips. They didn't even go all the way. All the way. Jesus on them.

[A]

No, they. They didn't commit any violence towards property, unlike what Jesus did in the temple. Right, right. Why don't we read a few justice. Why don't we read a few super chats and then we can watch. I think watching the Don Lemon interview with that one congregant is really telling and we can kind of unpack that. So, friends, again, thank you so much for being here. It means the world we are live right now. Please give this video a like if you're watching on YouTube, it really helps get it out to more and more people. If you're watching on substack. Thank you so much. We are Tim and April, two former Christian nationalists, conservative evangelicals, and now we're both very Christian, but on the other side, helping you understand what's going on in America. Thanks for being here. Okay, super chats. Got a few of them. This one is from Stevie Clown. I just want to say Stevie Clown messaged me on the new evangelicals community space called TNE Connect. And I actually saw their face for the first time. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's you. Because Stevie's always in our super chats. So, Stevie, good to see you. And they say Jesus disturbed worship to capitalism when he turned over the tables in the temple. Kudos to the protesters in that church service. Yes, absolutely. Byzantine. Byzantine. Pratt, the whole Trump board of peace thing is triggering my end times anxiety trauma. Board of Peace. I didn't hear about this, did you?

[B]

Well, they're always talking about peace. He literally wants the Nobel Peace Prize. He thinks he's bringing world peace, which is a sign of the end times.

[A]

Joseph Compton. It's not a bug. It's a feature of the American experience. Absolutely. Got a few more here. Let's see. Dawson Ballard. I think for so long we see scenarios like this and shout, where is God? Seeing that montage, I can't help but feel that God is yelling me and all of us to roll up sleeves to fight for our neighbors and loved ones. Love you all. No, I totally agree. I totally agree. Let's see Joseph Compton again. Yet they continue to scream Trump derangement syndrome to deflect valid criticism. They holler persecution whenever they. They get called out for it. Yep, and we're going to read a few of those in a minute here. Mama Brook. Pam Bondi is a lifelong Scientologist, which is a human trafficking cult. I did not know that. We got to fact check that. So she is well versed and conditioned on directing cruelty. We're going to Mama Brooks, it's not that I don't trust you, but we got to fact check it to be responsible. That is a wild claim.

[B]

I'll read one more Newsweek. Oh, yeah, go ahead, you read it.

[A]

I'll read the last one. Duck Dogen. Good to see you again. Dark. My in laws are immigrants and I'm terrified this admin will choose their country of origin to be the next talking point of their hateful rhetoric. Abso freaking lutely. Absolutely. And I can see the substack chat here. I see Patrick and I see a bunch of other people. The quiet witness poems. Good to see all of you. Thanks so much for being here. Okay, do we have a result? Pam Bondi.

[B]

So according to Newsweek, she does have ties to Scientology and that she has accepted, it looks like donations from Scientology. I'm trying to see if.

[A]

It says according to Stop the coup of former Scientologist, but I was.

[B]

She definitely has ties to the church for sure. Yeah, I don't know if she still is, but.

[A]

Okay. Well, that's good to know.

[B]

Scientology is wild. I used to, like. Sidebar. I used to live in Clearwater, Florida, and I went to this little small Christian school that was downtown Clearwater. And there's a Scientology, like headquarters down, like, downtown. And so we would walk to school. Anytime we'd go outside, we would see the Scientologists walking around. And I. I feel kind of weird saying this, but they all walked the same. Like you could tell who was a Scientologist and who was just a tourist for Florida by how they walked. I don't know. They all had a weird walk. I don't know. I just. I don't know. I was in high school. It could have been me just making stuff up, but I swear. And all my friends too are like, there's one, there's one. Like, you could point them out.

[A]

It's kind of like when you see the 15 passenger van and a bunch of kids get out of It. And you're like, you know what? That's a homeschool family. That is a home. As a former homeschooler, I can always snip them out. They, they. They walk a certain way.

[B]

Group field trip.

[A]

Yeah. It just depends. It depends on how long the, the, the wife's hair is. You know, that determines in my mind how if it's a homeschooler situation or not, in my experience. So.

[B]

Yeah. Well, anyway, that was a random rabbit hole.

[A]

We need that, April. We need those things on the show. We need some levity around here. Why don't we play this?

[B]

This is good. Yes. Don Lemon.

[A]

Yeah. By the way, Don Lemon didn't lead the protesters. He was there reporting on it. So if you hear people say, actually.

[B]

I have a quote from Nakima about this, because a lot of people even in my comments are like, this was Don Lemon's protest. Don Lemon led the protest.

[A]

Don Lemon.

[B]

Here's what Nakima said about it. He said, Don Lemon had no idea what the protest would even entail for this particular protest. The only people who were aware of what was going on are the organizers. So Don Lemon made the decision to come to Minnesota on Sunday. He reached out on Saturday night after he saw my flyer for the protest that I posted on social media. And I said, you know, if you want to come and document, you're welcome to, but I cannot give you any information about the demonstration itself. And so she says that what they're doing is an attack on the free press. Cuz Don Lemon was literally just there to document what happened.

[A]

Doing his thing. Yeah. Okay, cool. So this is actually, I think, a really telling interview of how the average white evangelical, in my opinion, is thinking about what's happening. And I think this is really worth watching in its entirety. Then we'll give commentary. You know, while I agree with everybody's freedom to protest, these people have come into our house and they've interrupted our worship. If I was to break into any of their houses uninvited, I would be kicked out. Ultimately, it's not a good way. There's a saying that people are showing up at houses where they're citizens. Yes. Without due process. The battering ram into someone's private property. And yeah, there's no recourse. This is all part of a much larger dialogue. On one side are people who watched a previous administration bring 12 million people in over the course of four years. This is another administration's corrective. I think I could actually be sympathetic to some of the things where there have been challenges to compassion and decency at the same time. These are what are called targeted interventions by ICE to keep the American people safe. I respectfully may interject here. I've been out reporting on a lot of these, and they're not targeted. There are no warrants signed by a judge. Most of the people that they detain don't have criminal convictions of criminal records. I'm not going to get into the weeds. This is. You should know that, though. Don't you think that's part of it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I. I could also show you many opposing sides. I'm not saying it's pretty. This is a part of a much larger dialogue in which one administration caused a great deal of chaos and havoc and danger for American citizens, and another is trying to correct that. Do you believe that? Why do I honestly. Let me tell you, just on the facts. Yes, I am. I want to give you the facts. No, no, no. That's the interesting thing about this is that they won't listen to facts. When you go as a journalist. I am a journalist. Journalist gives facts. And then you start correcting me with facts and don't have. You shouldn't hear the facts. Of course I should hear the facts. Who are picked up. Facts on both sides. That is the facts on both sides.

[B]

They think. Oh, God. They think there's different facts.

[A]

Well, I mean, think about who they follow. Right. Remember in 2016. Oh, those are just alternative facts. Alternative, right. I mean, they, they, they are. And by the way, there is a connection. I'm reading a great book by Jared Stacy. It's not out yet, but it's called. I'll pull it up in a second. I'm blanking on the title, but it's about conspiracy. It's really good. But he makes a connection of how the theology and the propaganda to kind of disbelieve reality is a connection between Trump and a lot of evangelical theology. And it's true because it builds someone's mind to do what you all just saw. And by the way, I did want to fact check a few quick things here, because this person makes the claim that the previous administration, aka Joe Biden, let in 12 million people, according to. What's the website I pulled from this? According to the center for Immigration Studies, the actual amount of immigrants that are undocumented right now that live in the US is about 10.9 million. So unless Joe Biden. Unless we had no undocumented immigrants in before Joe Biden, he just opened the doors. That's a false claim by the way over 40% of undocumented immigrants are people who overstayed visas, not individuals who crossed the southern border. Okay. And between 2020 and 2022, the undocumented population rose by about 650,000. And then as far as border encounters, Department of Homeland security reports over 4 million border encounters. Of those encounters, roughly 20 to 25% were people who are encountered more than once. So very low amount. And the actual count of undetected crossings is significantly lower than the total encounter figures. And there's all other kinds of stats here that we can get into that. It's just. It's a very, you know, hearing him say that. It's obvious who he listens to. I. I don't even. I don't even need to hear him say that he listens to. You know, he's someone who would say, I don't listen to news. I don't listen to cable news.

[B]

I don't like politics.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

I'm not political. I don't.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, one more point. I want to.

[B]

That's such a cop out. That is such a cop out. Because then when you don't know the facts, which you don't, you be like, well, I don't. I don't pay attention. But you do pay attention. You pay attention to your propaganda.

[A]

Of course you do. You know, he made the. He made the comment about how, hey, I wouldn't. You wouldn't like it if I invaded your house. And then Don Lemon's like, well, Ice is doing that. And he's like, well, that's our larger dialogue. See, that's the thing is, like, you're just. In this world, you're trained to never give an inch. You have to understand that the compromise is a four letter word. Go ahead, April.

[B]

Also, Christians, evangelicals are famous for invading other people's space. Literally just last week, our weird Christian shit was that girl preaching in Costco. How many times have they. There was another. I don't know on this show, but I did a video of a. There were a group of Christian influencers that went into a satanic temple and disrupted it. There was that politician that beheaded that stat. That, like, statue of Satan inside the Capitol building. It was supposed to be a religious thing anyway. Like, they do this stuff all the time. How about all the times that they protest. Protest abortion clinics or Planned Parenthood or the amount of times that people are just trying to shop in a mall and I get handed a card and someone wants to pray with me. The amount of times that I have to go to a UK football game and be accosted by the street preacher. Like, you're invade. They invade people's spaces all of the time. Unwanted, mind you, but the second someone just walks into theirs, they're like, oh, you hate God.

[A]

Thank God, right? They also support invading other countries. The same people who will tell you a nation, a sovereign nation is allowed to enforce its borders are like, aren't you guys so happy that we invaded Venezuela, we're sending the oil cartels down there to take over, and we kidnap their president because we don't like them? Or how about Greenland right now? Right? Trump's like, you know what? I think we're going to take Greenland. And wait, I'm sorry, is Greenland not a sovereign nation or territory? Like, is that. I'm sorry, I'm confused here. Like. Like, which one is it, guys? Are nations allowed to be sovereign or is it only okay whenever we invade nations and you know, there's an exception there. But maybe. April, have you ever thought about. Maybe we're just wasting our. Try our time trying to make sense of the obvious double standards here? Like, I think that MAGA generally has to know this. They just don't care. They just don't care. They do not care.

[B]

They.

[A]

They don't care. I.

[B]

Well, I think they're. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot that's going on in their minds because I do think a lot of them genuinely believe what they're saying. And you are taught in this world that when you come face to face with something that goes against what your pastor says, and if this man's going to that church where one of the pastors is an ICE director, you know what he's being told about ice. And you're taught that Satan comes as an angel of light, and it might even make sense.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But God works in mysterious ways, and God's ways are above our own. So don't doubt.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Don't doubt what your pastor says. Don't doubt what. What your family are saying. Don't doubt what the. What we tell you. The Bible says, like, you are. You are kind of taught, indoctrinated into building these defense mechanisms to never actually think for yourself.

[A]

That's right. That's right. It starts with the notion of truth. Don't you want to know truth? Don't you want to know the truth about the afterlife or the truth about God, or the truth about reality? And that is the Trojan horse into indoctrination. Because what they'll tell you Is. Well, the truth is that you can't trust evolution. You can't trust science. You have to trust that the earth was made in seven literal days because the Bible or, you know, you can't trust the data around how gender affirming care actually saves lives. You have to believe this propaganda about how we interpret, like Genesis 2, right? So they start sneaking that in, sneaking that in. And then it's not a far jump to go from those issues to vaccines, Right. Or to whatever other MAGA issues being pushed. Because like you said, April, evangelicalism is really big on spiritual authority. The pastor is ordained by God to have authority over you and to disciple you or chastise you or discipline you whenever you do something wrong. That is a very easy lane to cross over into when it comes to the president. Because if your pastor tells you, right, that biblical values just so happen to align with the MAGA agenda, well, it doesn't matter if Trump's an adjudicator rapist. He's still embodying these biblical values. It doesn't matter if Trump lies about things overall, he's still embodying these biblical values. And before you know it, like you said, you're not thinking for yourself. You're being spoon fed what to think. But you've convinced yourself that somehow you're doing the research, that somehow you are after truth. And that's why it's so hard to break people free of this way of thinking with just facts. Because facts and data do not matter ultimately here.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And you're taught to distrust science, you're taught to distrust doctors, you're taught to distrust anything, anybody that is not a Christian and not just any Christian. Like your specific flavor of Christianity and your own intuition.

[A]

Right. The heart is deceitfully wicked. You can't trust yourself. So.

[B]

I know. Don't trust your own instincts.

[A]

I do have the clip of Don Lemon talking to the pastor. Do you want me to play that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that helpful? Okay, so here's Don talking to Pastor Parnell while this is all going down again, a little chaotic with the audio, but it's pretty. It's somewhat clear. This is unacceptable. It's shameful. It's shameful to interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship. So. But there were folks who. I have to take care of my flock. Listen, we live in a. There's a constitution in the First Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest. We're here to worship. We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these Cities, that's the hope of the world is Jesus Christ. I'm going to be very respectful. Please don't push me, though. We're here. We're here to worship Jesus. That's why we're here.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

That's why we're here. That's what we're about. Don't you think Jesus would be understanding? And we're about love, these folks, we're about spreading the love of Jesus. But did you try to talk to them as a Christian? No one is willing to talk, okay? I have to take care of my church and my family.

[B]

So I asked this.

[A]

You actually would also leave this building. You don't want us to worship unless you're here to worship. I'm always worship. I'm a Christian. We're here. Well, we're here to worship. We're here to worship.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Thank you very much. It is interesting how he says, we're here to spread the love of Jesus. And yet one of the pastors on potentially on Stafford, who preaches at this church is response is leading a federal agency that is literally terrorizing its neighbors.

[B]

It reminds me of that scene and saved. I've never seen Mandy Moore's character where she, like, throws the Bible. She's like, I am filled with the love of Christ.

[A]

Yeah, well, that, that if you. If you look, if you out there, if you ever hear someone say, I just believe that Jesus is the answer to all of our problems. That is code for this, okay? That is code for this kind of agenda that you can look at our past video we just did on YouTube about the passion Conference, right? It's the same kind of idea. And I think his name was Cliff in that video. He kind of says the choir part out loud after he says that, right? He's like, jesus is the hope of America. And then all of a sudden he gets into kind of like the right wing side of it, you know, subtly. That's what that means. You have to learn how to decipher this stuff. Because he doesn't mean liberation for the oppressed. He doesn't mean, you know, feeding the hungry or making sure that kids who are hungry have access to free, free school lunches or free affordable health care. He means a maga. Right wing agenda. That's what he means.

[B]

So obviously this. This turned into a huge Christian persecution narrative. And so we have. We have videos and I think we have some tweets too, that we want to show.

[A]

Oh, right, the other half of the show.

[B]

Yeah, we can move this. We can move through this. Quickly.

[A]

I think whatever you want to do. Let's see, we have. I mean, we have. Al Muller is actually probably a good one here to highlight. And you can read this in a second. April. I'll just tee this up. Al Mohler is the president of the Southern Baptist. Like college. I think it's a seminary. He is a heavyweight in the Southern Baptist Convention. Again, the same Southern Baptist Convention that this church is a part of. So there's a connection here.

[B]

Okay, so he, he posted. I normally do not post to social media on the Lord's Day, but the unspeakably evil intrusion of a leftist mob into a Christian worship service today in Minneapolis must be called out for what it is. And federal authorities should be fast and effective in response. May God bless this steadfast pastor, this faithful gospel church, and the members who were traumatized, including children and youth. This was nothing less than the desecration of Christian worship. I love how this was what gets him to post on the Lord's Day and not the five year old.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That ice used as bait to detain not only the five year old, but also his dad. That was just. That was just really. That new story dropped yesterday.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

A five year old. He has a. He. He has a Spider man backpack. He was coming home from school when I scrapped him. Used him as a prop. I'll tell you the story. Liam had recently turned 5, was one of four children that were at the school. Liam and his father had just arrived home when they were detained, according to Zena Stinvik, the superintendent. When she arrived, Stevik said the father's car was still running and the father and son had already been apprehended. An agent had taken Liam out of the car, led the boy to his front door and directed him to knock on the door asking to be let in, quote, in order to see if anyone else was home. Essentially using a five year old as bait.

[A]

My oldest is 5. My youngest loves Spider Man. I mean, it doesn't. It's a normal human response to think about, wow, if that was my child, I be outraged. This seems unjust. But then for the Christian nationalist, well, that empathy must be toxic. Well, I can't trust how I really feel. Well, my pastor says that this government is instituting God's justice, so I have to ignore that. You see how this works, friends? This is how the justification happens. You see this? This is a real child, a human being that has been used as a prop for the state. By the way, as far as we know, last I heard, this child and his dad are somewhere in Texas. They've been ripped from their home, flown to Texas, and God knows what is going on. Five years old. Five. And I need to highlight here one more thing. President Obama actually deported more people than Trump did in his first term. And he did it without doing this kind of nonsense. He did it without killing unarmed citizens, without sending federal agents into cities to wreak havoc. This is not about protection. This is not about that. If Trump was so concerned about undocumented immigrants, he would send most of his resources to Texas, which ranks number two in terms of the concentration of undocumented immigrants, while Minnesota ranks 29th. It is not about law and order, it's not about safety, it's not about criminality, it's about racism, it's about xenophobia, it's about hatred of the other. That's what this is. We have to call it what it is. And the result is this.

[B]

Wanna point out, the attorney that was representing this family said that this family had an active asylum case and had paperwork showing that they arrived at an official US point of entry, which is an official crossing point. And he said, quote, the family did everything they were supposed to do in accordance with how the rules have been set out. And they did not come here illegally.

[A]

Of course not.

[B]

They had paperwork.

[A]

Remember a couple months ago, we covered, we had video of ICE going into court houses and waiting for immigrants to come out of their court hearings to arrest them. I'm so, you know, the feelings inside of me are so deep about, regarding the level of, of, of dehumanization and hatred in lies that we're seeing right now. It is obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together that what's happening is not about what this administration claims it is. Because we know, April, if it was about that right wing media would be giving example after example after example of all the criminals that they're arresting, but they're not. How is this five year old? How. Tell me, Ally Stuckey, how this five year old deserves it? I really want to hear from her. I would love to see her respond to this clip from me. How does this 5 year old deserve it? This innocent kid with a freaking Spider man backpack on. You have kids, Ally? I have kids. Where's your, where's your decency? Where's your love your neighbor as yourself? Where?

[B]

I know. I just can't imagine like that happening to my kid. I don't know. I just like, even if, even if they are here, quote, unquote, illegally, they are still human beings. Totally made in the image of God. Like at a certain point, especially if you are someone who professes to follow Christ to believe in the gospel, where John 3:16, 10 does not. John 3:16 does not say, for God so loved America. It says, for God so loved the world. And then Jesus said, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me. And what you do to the least of these, you do to me. I don't understand where that disconnect is. I mean, I do understand it because I know it's induct. Like I, I understand, but I don't understand, like on just a basic human level.

[A]

Yeah. Not to mention there are countless commands in scripture to welcome the immigrant. Like you said, oh my God. You cannot find one verse that gives clear instructions to keep the immigrant out. It's always the opposite. But we know that. We know that.

[B]

Did we have other examples?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I got more. I got more. I know we're in the weeds today, friends, but it's just a heavy day. It's a heavy show. It is what it is, you know. So William Wolf, who's a white nationalist and also a racist, says, I'm just kind of beyond like coddling these people. He says, and this is a real tweet, friends, if you're listening on podcast, quote, Christians are the most persecuted religious group in America. And it's not even close. All because some other Christian protesters disrupted a church service. No violence, nothing thrown, nothing vandalized. They simply disrupted a service by asking a very fair question. How do you have a pastor here who also works for ice? That's enough for William Wolf to say, Christians, AKA people like him, are the most persecuted religious group in America. And it's not even close. William Wolfe has a picture of him praying over President Trump. How persecuted are you, dude? How persecuted are you?

[B]

It's like, that is such a stupid. Like, American Christians are not persecuted. This is a whole other topic. But it's how you could see, like, think about it too. How they. How they're so good at switching up the narrative, right? Like, remember when Charlie Kirk was murdered? They turned him into a martyr. They turned him into a saint. They were like, oh, no, he just went to college campuses and spread the gospel, despite the fact that he went to college campuses and debated college kids and promoted right wing politics and propaganda like it was not Jesus. He was spreading. Like, so that's how they could see this church protest and turn it into Christian persecution. But I do think, I want to preface this by saying that I, I think that protest was Absolutely valid and deserved. And they, I wouldn't say that they did anything wrong.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

We are dealing with a group of people that if you blow on them, they scream Christian persecution. Right. We're living in a world where Trump administration and a lot of these MAGA Christians are actively looking for ways to be persecuted. And a lot of times it's stupid. Right? It doesn't even make sense. I would say even in this case, it's stupid. But to their people, they're going to see a quote, unquote angry mob screaming inside a church service. And now pastors all over the world or all over the nation are telling their congregants they're probably even going to show the video. They might show the video and say, this is what they want to do to all of us. Because they're not giving them context. They're not saying, oh, there was a member of ICE here. Like, you're dealing with people that are getting propaganda. But now they have video footage of a disruption of a Christian church service that they're going to run with. They're going to really capitalize on this. And I don't, I don't know what the answer to that is. Like, honestly, like, hot take, maybe I think we should be protesting more churches, honestly, but not. I, like, for me, like, I've actually considered doing this. There's a local, like, really large mega church that's pretty Christian nationalist. And for a while there, there were some protesters and I hadn't had a chance to get out there yet, but that would protest in the parking lot, like on the, the, the corners, like the street corners leading into the church before and after the service. So as people were pulling in and as people were pulling out, you know, signs, Bible verses, you know, that say what you do the least as easy as you do. To me, all the verses about justice and mercy, I would, I would want to show up with my sign that says Trump or Jesus can't serve both. You know, like, I think that is a very effective way to protest churches that is still confronting them. But they're not. I just, I just, I don't want to give them ammo that. Yeah, they shouldn't have. Like, because, because here's the thing, they're not being honest about it. They're not being good faith. They weren't actually bullied. No one was harmed. Like, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure some children were a little scared because there was screaming. My daughter gets scared for loud noises and I try to put myself in their shoes. Like, if I was in a church service and people came in and we're yelling, you know, but it's also not.

[A]

Not that child's fault either. Right. Who's sitting in the pew? Right. There's a kid. There's a kid.

[B]

Right. And I, but, and also, but it's also not true, the narrative. They're saying they didn't barge in in the middle of service. They were already in the service. She asked a question calmly. Then the pastor yelled, shame. And then it kind of, you know, exploded from there. So anyway, I just, I have conflicted feelings on. I, I fully support the right to protest. Also, they're gonna, you know, I, I hate that they're being arrested for this. Like, I do think that's actual Christian. Like, it's clearly not Christian persecution. Right. And the people you are arresting are also Christians.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like that. That's stupid. But I just, I come from this world. I know how this is going to be weaponized.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And I just, I, I just hate to see that, that fallout because they have video now that they're going to be able to manipulate to their followers.

[A]

Yeah. Look, I'm, I, I hear you with this. And my response or my conversation in this is not a response to you, so don't take it that way because I've been thinking about the same thing. In fact, I got dinner two nights ago with a good scholar friend of mine, and that was kind of his position too. And we kind of went back and forth over it. I, I am very pragmatic and I do think about, like, how do we get change done? Right. Midterms are coming up. And also I think we need to recognize that most Americans are not nearly tapped into political things like you and I are. April. Right. Because we do this for a living. And like, we come from this unique world that most people don't know about. And so I do think about, like, the average American who doesn't follow this stuff and thinks, well, whatever doesn't really affect me. What are they going to hear and see? And will it bode well for the midterms? So I think pragmatically first. Just like that. Right. Because you're right. Right wing propaganda is really effective at reaching beyond its bubble. Did you hear that some leftist mob stormed a church? You know, whoa, I didn't, Whoa. That is, that, that's too far for me. I can see that 100%. And I think that there is a valid, you know, thought process to that. Like, hey, like, you know, is, is this practice? Is this Practically the best decision. On the other hand, where I land is a couple places. One, I've learned in very painful ways to trust black women. And if four black women organize this thing with that approach, I trust them more than I trust what I can see. I've learned that in painful ways. My friends will tell you that. So there is that side of it. I also think about if this. If I. If I was reading a story, and I don't. I'm not saying this person did this, but if I'm reading a story of how MLK organized a protest at a segregationist church and disrupted the worship service, I'd be like, wow, wow, that is courage. And, you know, that's a good thing. I'm glad that church service was disrupted, but because they were part of a system that was actively dehumanizing the black community. Right. But it's easy for me to say that looking back without feeling the consequences of that or like being in the political moment, but I kind of bring that to this moment. Like, you know, I understand completely, and I play that out in my head. Ultimately, though, I landed on this side because if this was a KKK rally and it was disrupted back in the day, I'd be in favor of it. If this was a church that lynched black people, I'd be a part. If they had a pastor on staff who worked for the KKK and civil rights groups protested this church by disrupting the service in the 1950s or 60s, I'd be like, hell, yeah, that's the way. So that's kind of where I land on this, you know, And I do think. Last thought on this. And I'm reading the comments. I know. You know, I appreciate you guys chiming in here. It's important to have the conversation. I do think that ultimately we are in a political moment where we need some disruption. The status quo is not getting us anywhere. The Democratic Party is totally anemic in its response. There's nothing happening. And we have to do some things that I think are gonna. Are gonna stir a ruckus. But I also agree with you. As someone who grew up this way. I know how this is gonna be spun immediately and how it's being spun. I just don't know if there's anything that we can do with that, though, because no matter what, they're gonna spin it. No matter what, they're gonna spin it. It doesn't matter if they process tested on the outside. It's still be spun as this woke mob attack. In my opinion, that's why?

[B]

And I think that's ultimately where I've landed too, because like, at the end of the day, we can't just tiptoe around because they're going to feign persecution, you know, because they do it anyway. They do it when you're not doing anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you know, I just, it just, it makes it harder to have these like back and forth conversations with people in real life that will say, well, they did it, you know, And I don't totally. That's, that's all I'm saying is that it does, it does give them a little bit more ammo to use, which I don't like because they already have the frickin President and they have the White House and they're, they're weaponizing the military and the National Guard.

[A]

And that's a good point.

[B]

You don't want to give them more reason to be violent. That, that's what I mean. Todd Stearns, there was a video where he was basically saying like, we're so close to, to us just being able to, to Christians fighting back because of this.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

They weren't violent. They walked in, they were in the service, participating. They raised their voices. Right. They.

[A]

Yep, they are. And they're trigger happy and they have, like you said, they had the power of the state. What I love about this show, April, and you and me is that we can, we need to have these conversations. We have to wrestle through some of these things that. Yeah, I think are worth pointing out. Like, I think your take isn't a bad one. In fact, I told you offline, I consider that myself. I think it's worth having on the air because we don't want to come across as just, you know, dogmatic, like, you know, whatever. We should be able to talk through this stuff and examine what do we do in moments like this. You know, like wisdom is needed and we're not all going to see it the same way. But that's okay, though. I think in moments like this, I think it's necessary to have that conversation because I want change.

[B]

Yeah. And by no means I am not condemning the protests at all. I thought like, what they did was very brave and neat. I mean, that man was a director of ICE and he was a pastor of a church. So like, what do you do with that? For the record, that is my position. I support the protesters. Okay. I just wanted to merely point out how this is going to be manipulated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just my own anxiety around that.

[A]

And that's where I'm Stuck, too. I mean, you and I talk to our friends all the time, and I'm like, what do we do here? Like, I don't believe in violence, but also, like, what it seems like, no matter what good faith measure is ever put forward by anyone on the other side, it's always taken as an advantage for, for right wing Christo fascists. You know, I don't know what to do with that. It's like when I, when I critiqued Gavin Newsom for having Charlie Kirk on his podcast and never, and never actually protesting him, you know, or pushing back. He just, he just let Charlie Kirk walk all over him on, like, transgender issues. It's like, guys, you can't negotiate with people who think that you're demonic. That's my point. And I don't know what to do with that. You know, I just don't know what to do with that.

[B]

Yeah, so I just think a lot of us are in a really, it's just a, it's a difficult time to be a Christian. Like, like, not, not in a persecution way, my God. But like, just, like, just like in the mental gymnastics of our every everyday life. I mean, I mean, it's just a difficult time to be an American.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Really. Like, and that's by no means discounting the horrors that Americans, you know, of color have always faced in this country. But I just, there's just so many. It's just really complicated. Like, I don't know about you, but I just feel like I'm constantly going crazy, you know, Like, I'm seeing things with my own eyes. I know that this is wrong, and yet I have Christian loved ones being like, this is great. We love God. We love ice. God loves ice. Jesus would be maga. Like, what? Not gonna cuss, but you know what I mean? Like, and I'm like, every day, like, in the work that you and I do, like, in prepping for the show and doing my own content, I'm like, fight fashion. Fight fashion. Fight fashion. And then I gotta go pick up my kids from school, and then we're playing Monopoly and I'm helping them with their homework and I'm driving them to basketball practice. And, like, it's, I'm living in such a weird dichotomy. I, I don't, my brain. I, I don't know. It's just, it's a lot, It's a lot.

[A]

I, I, I, I think this is what makes moments in history so impressive. When people, you know, look, it's chaotic. Like, this is chaos. And this Is. This is part of how fascism operates. This is part of how authoritarianism operates. Right. Steve Bannon said, flood the zone with crap. Right. Every day is a new story. Every day is a new thing. Plus, and this is a big. We have to keep this in mind, friends. This is really important. There was no AI. The last, last rise of fascism. There was no social media. We. There is new technologies that are being used in ways that we're not prepared for or fully understand. Algorithms mediate our human connection now online, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If people find this show on YouTube, it's because their algorithm is feeding it to them. We're at the mercy of that algorithm. Right. We're at the mercy of what our eyes see. So we have to. I'm with you. I mean, I'm with you all the way, April. We talk about this offline all the time. You know, we do this work. Then I'm going to pick up my kid, and then me and my little guy are playing Mario World now. Because he wants to play, right? Or throw paper airplanes, whatever it is.

[B]

Mario.

[A]

Is it Mario? I say Mario.

[B]

Mario.

[A]

I don't say a lot.

[B]

Mario.

[A]

I don't say coupon. I say coupon. I'm a. It's me.

[B]

I'm Mario. He literally says it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Me.

[A]

I'm Mario.

[B]

It's me. I'm Mario.

[A]

It's me. I'm Mario. That sounds right. My point is that I think a lot of us share that sympathy with you or that feeling of, like, this is chaotic. And also, I think, especially as former white evangelical Christians, all the more obligation for us to do what we need to do for the sake of our neighbors and our children and our families and our communities, you know, but, yeah, I feel.

[B]

I do just think. I do think looking at American history and remembering how terrible other times have been worse than now, which I know it's. It's easy to think, like, oh, my gosh, it's never been this bad, but it has been, and it's been worse. That, honestly, somehow gives me hope in a weird way, you know, like. And, like, MLK Day was just this past Monday, and Martin Luther King Jr. Like, I don't know, just thinking about him and his work and what he was able to accomplish in a. In many ways, a tougher world then.

[A]

Well, and the people of Minneapolis. Have you seen the footage? I mean, citizens are standing up for their neighbors. People are doing everything they can to put their bodies in the. In this. In the spoke of the wheel of tyranny. Right there are. We saw Massive protests last year. Right. Some of the biggest we've ever seen in American history. The majority of Americans do not support what this administration is doing. So I'm with you where, like, I feel the weight. And also I have to remind myself, like, okay, there is always hope. Like, there are people who see this. There are Christians. There are white progressive Christians who see this. There's the black liberation tradition that can teach us so much about how to live and how to respond to Empire. That is not playing by the rules, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there is always hope, for sure. But also, at the same time, we have to be realistic. I don't want to sugarcoat things. And also, there's always hope. It's both.

[B]

And for me, like, that Martin Luther King Jr. Quote, or he kind of revised the quote, where he says, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. Like. Yeah, I find hope in that. You know, like, what this good change is not going to happen overnight. Slow and steady. Like, I do think that over. Like, I do believe in good triumphing over evil, ultimately.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Which is hard to still believe that when things are really, really dark. But that's. That's what's gonna keep me going. And I, you know, I think we could all just take solace in that. Look at history. It's been worse, and then it got better, and it'll get better again now.

[A]

And that's why we show up twice a week. Right? Like, that's why we do this show. We do this show because we want to show up for people. And frankly, we. People show up for us. I mean, it's a mutual thing, and we're not stopping what we do. You know, this work is. It's. It's, for me, as tough as it can be. It's also incredibly life giving to know that I'm not alone, that there are 600 people watching live right now with us who feel the same way and are, you know, in the trenches with us. They feel the weight that we feel. Right. So I'm with you. I mean, I. I feel all the things as well. You can ask my wife. I mean, I feel it all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah.

[B]

Okay, so we get to our final segment.

[A]

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I think. I think we covered the topic enough. There's always more content that we can cover. I'm sure we'll play more videos later on. Let me pull up though, the final segment. And as I'm doing that, friends, thank you so much for being.

[B]

We totally didn't play that one pastor video. Is that where you're. Where you were going next?

[A]

I. There are a lot of them, but it's not. I don't think it's important. I don't think it's important. If people want to find more of this content, they can subscribe to our YouTube channel. We cover a lot of this. We both have our own social medias where we cover this stuff. So, friends, thank you again so much for being here. It really means the world. If you like this video, please make sure to give it a like on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel. Um, and if you're on substack, thank you so much. It means the world that you're here every single Thursday with us. Are there any more Super Chats to read?

[B]

Oh, I. I would think so.

[A]

Let me take a look. I have two more. It looks like. Wait, is it three? Hold on, let me look. Now we have two. Three. If we miss you, let us know from Naked Charles. Just reading the title. Don's exasperation is how I feel with my parents. You said it, not me. Bluegrass, thank you so much for the super chat. And Stevie the Clown. Again, hard to see humanity and those who you see demonic. I understand that. And that's why we do our best not to dehumanize people as much as we really feel sometimes the desire to. Also, friends, if you're looking for a better path forward in your faith, the New Evangelicals exist. It's a nonprofit that I started in 2020 now led by Melinda Hale. It produces this show. You can go to thenewevangelicals.com, join our free community. We do free scholar sessions on the Bible. We have our own community spaces, regional group chats. There's no cost to any of it. The newevangelicals.com connect. Okay, we ready?

[B]

Ready We Christian.

[A]

That's not the right video picture.

[B]

Yeah, sorry. Honestly, that is also weird. Christian. Beep. This video was actually sent in. Oh, by Joe. Shout out to Joe if you're watching. I got a message DM'd me. And I was like, okay, yeah, this is pretty cringey, so feel free if you also see stuff in the wild and you'd like to submit it. I don't always see my DMs, so I would. Don't recommend doing that. But we don't. We have an email.

[A]

Yeah. Tim and April show at the new.

[B]

Evangelicals.Com Tim and April show athenuevangelicals.com so there you go. Email that. That's probably Better.

[A]

Here we go. By the way, this is real. This is not satire.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm gonna go ahead and play it now.

[B]

Oh, we missed a super chat. Lurag0912 said we missed their super chat. Yeah, real quick.

[A]

Oh, I see. I see. Okay, you can read this one. I've read a lot.

[B]

Yeah. I can't wrap my head around how anyone can be this cruel and lack empathy for these children and their families. It makes me physically ill. Love what you do. Keep up the good fight. Thank you so much. I feel the same.

[A]

Here we go. Okay, buckle up. My wife doesn't have any single friends. Maybe a controversial thing we did when we first got married. I went. We got a whiteboard out. We put all our friends on the whiteboard, and we gave each other full authority to X people out. Because, shocker, when you get married, everything needs to change. The people that are getting divorced, they try to merge their single lives and keep living their single lives, but, like, sleeping together and, like, kind of being married. When you get married, everything needs to reset. And we gave each other full authority to do that. All of Ashley's friends I approve of. If I don't, we have a serious conversation. There's back and forth. And I'm not a dictator in our relationship, but I am the leader. And if I see somebody as unhealthy in her life, she's giving me permission to say so, and we cut them out. Yeah, but what he's not telling you is when there's not permission given, he still makes her cut them out.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'm not a dictator. I'm a leader. That's the same thing as saying it's not a religion, it's a relationship. Like, okay, that's just a fine line there.

[A]

Exactly. But you have to show up at church every single Sunday. You have to tithe. You have to go to Sunday school. You have to volunteer. But it's a relationship, guys. It's not a religion.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not a bigot. I'm just sharing tough love. Like. Oh, yeah, that's one way of saying it.

[A]

I just feel like it's a lot of. I mean, look, I was there once in the sense of. I got married. Me and my wife are very evangelical, and I think almost 10 years ago now, we'd probably be like, you know, that's not a bad idea. But looking back, I'm like, why would we ever. I mean, I never did that, to be clear, but, like, why? Ugh. Ugh. I couldn't imagine telling my wife hey, your friend, you can't see her anymore because I don't like her. Oh, bizarre.

[B]

Did he say. Did he mention single people at the front too? Like they're not friends with any of their single friends? Did he say that? Or is that another video? Oh, yeah. My wife doesn't have any single friends.

[A]

My wife doesn't have any single friends. Maybe a controversial thing we did when we first got even like other women. I.

[B]

That's so bizarre.

[A]

But that's because, though, and you know this, April, in this world, you're taught that if you have a friend of the opposite sex who's single, it's only a matter of time before you fall in love with them and cheat on your partner. I was taught that. I was taught, like, watch out, Tim, because when you get married, if you have any single people in your life who are women, that could lead to an affair one day. And I have news for those people. Ten years in, I do have single friends who are women. It has not happened yet. No affair.

[B]

Good job.

[A]

Aren't you impressed? I know, right? I do. I do affair free for a decade or something.

[B]

Also, like, I. I think I actually have heard that. I can't remember where, but I've heard that sentiment too, that you shouldn't be. Have single friends of the same sex too, because you're in different lifes. You're in different, like, life change. What Life stages. That's the worst. You're different life stages and you're not gonna be able to relate. Relate to your single friend. And like, you wouldn't. What the temptation of what your single friend might like, you know, their life might be better in some ways, and you don't want that temptation to be single if your single friend is having a great time.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

It's weird.

[A]

It's weird.

[B]

Yeah. Unless you're actively trying to make your single friend no longer be single, Right?

[A]

Then it's okay. Look, this is a real thing though, taught in these spaces. Like, I've experienced it for sure. Oh, I just. I couldn't imagine. I mean, especially now, like, dude, I'm 37, Sarah's 31. Am I really going to be like, hey, adult, you can't see this person? Like, what are they, my child? Like, it's. It's such a tantalizing of like the other, right? Where you have to tell them who they can see and who they can. As if they have no ability to. To make wise decisions for themselves. Or. Or you can't have a conversation if someone's Maybe unhealthy in any of your lives. Right? Like, there's obviously a spectrum here between that and, like, who cares? Right? I mean, me and Sarah have had that conversation with some people in our life of, like, you know, I'm not sure if we want them around our kids. I had that happen to me with. I had a really. Not really good friend, but I had a friend who I was like, this person's not stable, and I don't want them around the kids. And Sarah's like, I totally agree. And we decided that person would be cut out of our life. And guess what? It wasn't dictated to any of us. We mutually agreed because we saw the situation in front of us. It's possible. It's possible.

[B]

Yeah. But it's weird that you're, like, giving. Putting them. Like, they had, like, an event. Did you say they wrote it on a whiteboard and you. And you were allowed to just, X whoever? Like, that's. That's diabolical.

[A]

Like, April, be for real. Would I make it on the list or would Beacher cross me out?

[B]

You'd be crossed out for sure.

[A]

I mean, we hang out a lot. We talk all the time. Goodness, no.

[B]

No, Beecher. Like, I don't know, sometimes Beecher and I, because we still obviously are in these circles somewhat from just, like, people that we knew from our time in that world. And the way that some of these marriages work, we think is so weird, right? And then we're like, are we the weird ones that we don't care who each other are friends with? Are we the weird ones that we.

[A]

April, have you ever seen the joint Facebook account couple?

[B]

Yes, they all went to my small group. Why?

[A]

Like, you don't trust the DMs. That's where you are. You have to have a joint Facebook account. Come on. My. My guy really?

[B]

Like, oh, I have a story.

[A]

Oh, story time. I'm ready about this. Let's end on a happy, fun note, please.

[B]

Oh, I don't know if it's happy.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

So I'll try to tell this really quickly. There was this church that I. That Beecher and I went to for several years. We both. I was a worship leader there. Beecher worked there, and we had moved away, so we hadn't gone there for, like, a year or something.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then there was another couple that was in the small group with us, and we both had babies around the same time. They had a joint Facebook account. It was their married names. And I got a message from the wife and it was like, girl, how are you postpartum? Like, man, I like, the doctor says, like, I can't have or. I think I had my baby like six months before there's. Or something. And she was like, girl, this. This postpartum, like, sex droughts driving me crazy. Like, how did you do it? Like, I just love giving beat. Like, it was so sexual. And her and I had never talked in this way before. And I remember just being like, oh, yeah, I mean, it's cool. She's like, yeah, don't you just love sex and blah, blah, blah? And I was like, I mean, yeah.

[A]

Red flag, red flag, red flag.

[B]

I didn't think anything of it. I just thought it was weird. She's postpartum, you know, whatever. Because there was some, like, baby stuff in there. Yeah. And then it got. It got a little explicit and I was like, you know, just kind of gave very short answers and just stopped responding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, flash forward like six months. We go back and visit and we bring. This friend comes up in the conversation. We're just talking about, like, how everybody's doing. And my friend brought this people up, and I was like, oh, I got the weirdest message from the wife recently. And she was like, was it sexual in nature? And I said, yes. And she was like, well, that was the husband.

[A]

I.

[B]

And apparently he was like an offender, like on the list. I don't. I think for a long time. And it was never disclosed to us.

[A]

What. And that man is posing as his wife in your DMs.

[B]

And I don't know. I don't know if the church knew or not. I mean, but it was definitely.

[A]

What do you think the chances are given the track record?

[B]

I don't know. I'm just not. I'm saying I don't know.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But it was just. I was like, oh, my God. Gross.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. You think? Okay. Well, yeah. Wow.

[B]

I have so many stories like this, though. Like, I could write a whole separate book. I'm just like, weird Christian. Beep.

[A]

You know, tell your agent. Hey, I want a cut of that, though. This is our idea. We're Christian. Beep. Okay.

[B]

Oh, yeah. We have another super chat.

[A]

I don't know. Then we'll wrap it up here. Okay. Melanie and Lee, the Bible says to treat older women like mothers and treat younger women like sisters. If you unfriend someone for being single, that's not treating them like a mother, sister, or brother. Hell. Yep. That's unbiblical. Someone tell this man. All right. Okay. All right. Friends. Well, thanks for tuning in, I think. I mean, it means a lot to us, but I know we're, like, the bearers of bad news every week. Like, you all know what you're in for, and you're still here, so that means a lot. Thanks.

[B]

Thank you. Yes. Thank you for being here. You're not alone. We're not alone. We press on. I can't say the F word, so. Screw ice. Melt ice.

[A]

Melt ice. We'll go with that.

[B]

Go away.

[A]

Ice, please. Pretty please. Ice. Go away.

[B]

Just first.

[A]

All right. Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.

[B]

Oh, I'm April Lajoy.

[A]

Well, see you next Thursday. See you.

[B]

Bye.