Transcript

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See terms. This is the Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I am April.

A (0:56)

I am Tim. Welcome in friends. Hope you're all hanging in there. We have a very, very, very full show today. We are all seeing the same news that you are all seeing. We're covering what's happening in Minneapolis where we're talking about what happened at City's church. We'll get to that in a minute. Thank you so much for being here. As always, if you're watching on YouTube, please make sure to like this stream. It helps get it pushed out to more people. Make sure you're subbed to our YouTube channel. And if you're watching on substack. Hello, everyone. Smash that heart button. I think it helps. It makes us feel good. Good to see you all. Thanks for being here. Yeah, just punch your phone real hard.

B (1:33)

So aggressive. Smash it.

A (1:35)

Did I ever tell you, April, I used to work for Apple? I used to work like in the retail stores.

B (1:38)

No, you don't say.

A (1:41)

Okay, that's how we're starting off the show. Just like that, huh?

B (1:44)

Yes, yes. You have told me you used to work for Apple. As an Android user. You bring it up a lot.

A (1:50)

It's been a minute. Let's be real now. I've toned it down recently, okay? But I say that because I had a random thought with the term smash the like button. Did I ever tell you that I worked as a technician for a little bit as well in their store? So you would get people with, you know, all the problems, right? You know, the screens cracked, whatever it is. Usually people understood if your phone was out of warranty, there was a cost associated with the repair, et cetera. Every now and then you get someone who would throw like a legitimate fit in the store. And I have had it happen before where people have thrown their phone across the Store into the glass windows.

Summary

The Tim & April Show

Episode 81: Persecution or Protest? The MAGA Pearl Clutching Continues

Date: January 23, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Podcast: The New Evangelicals

Overview

In this charged episode, Tim and April untangle a week of intense events at the intersection of faith, politics, and culture, focusing largely on the recent ICE activities in Minnesota, the controversial protest at Cities Church in St. Paul, and the ensuing Christian persecution narrative in MAGA circles. The hosts provide insight into Christian nationalism, the realities of state-sanctioned violence, and the deep history of racism and complicity within American Christianity, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention. The episode balances emotional testimony, fact-checks, raw reactions, and honest debate about protest tactics in an era of rising authoritarianism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: ICE Raids & Dehumanization (05:00–16:35)

The show opens with Tim and April acknowledging widespread trauma and calls from their audience about ICE’s conduct in Minnesota, especially targeting nonwhite, immigrant communities.
April contextualizes current events in the history of American oppression—slavery, indigenous removal, internment camps—underscoring that "oppression in America is not new." (04:20)
Tim emphasizes the shock of seeing these events supported by faith communities that once preached compassion:

“I can't believe that my faith tradition is the largest faith tradition that's responsible for what's happening in America today.” (06:12)
Hosts roll an unedited, gut-wrenching montage of ICE raids, highlighting children traumatized, people carried away, and parents desperate for their families.
A particularly emotional segment features a child recounting anti-immigrant bullying at a soccer game:

“He said Trump is going to get me and send me back to where I used to live. And I was born in America. I don't live anywhere else. … It makes me really sad that how they just control their power like that.” (09:35–10:40)
April and Tim stress:

“We're not trying to manipulate your emotions. You cannot deny the overwhelming amount of video footage ... ICE is acting lawlessly.” (15:40)

2. The Protest at Cities Church: Facts vs. Narrative (16:35–32:41)

Protest targeted Cities Church because one of its pastors, David Easterwood, is also the ICE Field Director for the Midwest region (MN, ND, SD, IA, NE).
Footage is played showing Easterwood both as ICE director and forgiving sins as church pastor; hosts underscore the moral and theological disconnect:

“He is not just some grunt worker. He is directing these things.” (19:43)
April details the protest: led by four Black women (two arrested), it was nonviolent but loud—no vandalism, no threats—yet immediately framed by MAGA and federal officials as a criminal attack.
Pam Bondi’s tweet is read aloud:

“We do not tolerate attacks on places of worship” (22:00)
Hosts immediately contrast with multiple incidents of ICE themselves violating sanctuaries: “What about all these churches that have been stormed by ICE agents… It's obvious where your priorities lie.” (22:41)

3. Dissecting the Christian Persecution Narrative (32:41–56:09)

Audio interview with protest co-organizer Nekima Levy Armstrong clarifies:
The protestors attended the service, waited until pastor prayed for the church to “get our house in order,” then asked, “How is David Easterwood a pastor here and also a director of ICE?”

“How can you serve as a pastor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ while overseeing the brutal conduct of ICE agents who are literally terrorizing communities in the Twin cities of Minnesota?” (30:17–31:44)
April and Tim connect the dots: this is not isolated; the black church’s legacy of prophetic protest emerges in opposition to a white church too often allied with state violence and segregation.
History of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)—the denomination Cities Church belongs to—is reviewed as rooted in the defense of slavery and hierarchical, patriarchal theology (34:00).
Discussion highlights:

“Is it any surprise that… we have a SBC church that has a pastor who works for an arm of the state that is kidnapping brown-skinned people and killing unarmed citizens?” (35:34)

4. Media Spin & Fact-Checking (Don Lemon Segment) (41:31–52:13)

Don Lemon’s interview with a white church congregant exposes the “both sides” fallacy and a stubborn refusal to engage with facts:

Congregant: “There are facts on both sides.”
Don Lemon: “That is the interesting thing… they won't listen to facts.” (44:32)
Hosts debunk myths:
- No proof Joe Biden let in “12 million immigrants.” (Actual number of undocumented immigrants in US: ~10.9 million; not all newly arrived.)
- Most detained by ICE have no criminal convictions (CATO Institute stat cited).
- ICE’s conduct is neither targeted nor humane.

5. The Pastor’s Response & Theological Gymnastics (52:33–55:26)

Don Lemon confronts Pastor Jonathan Parnell, who says:

“It's shameful to interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship… We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these Cities, that’s the hope of the world.”
Tim observes:

“It is interesting how he says, we're here to spread the love of Jesus. And yet… one of the pastors… is leading a federal agency that is literally terrorizing its neighbors.” (54:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On American complicity and disassociation:

“You would think, would never tolerate or support what's happening now... how are they getting behind this stuff and justifying it in some of the most, frankly, ludicrous ways imaginable?” (06:12)
ICE director-pastor David Easterwood, in his own words:

“Their work is critical to the security of the United States. And I am proud to lead such an outstanding team … Church, you have confessed your sins. Now hear the good news … in Jesus Christ, your sins are forgiven.” (18:24–19:26)
Protestor/organizer Nekima Levy Armstrong:

“We are unapologetic about going into the church ... How is David Easterwood a pastor here and also a director of ICE in St. Paul?” (30:17–31:44)
On the Christian persecution narrative:

“...Christians are the most persecuted religious group in America. And it's not even close.” – William Wolfe, white nationalist (63:10)
On ICE using a 5-year-old as bait:

“Liam and his father had just arrived home when they were detained … An agent had taken Liam out of the car, led the boy to his front door and directed him to knock ...to see if anyone else was home. Essentially using a five year old as bait.” (57:06)

Analytical Highlights & Context

Double Standard on Persecution: Hosts repeatedly point out how the right only decries government overreach when their community is “threatened,” otherwise remaining silent or supportive when government agents (ICE) violate basic human rights or sacred spaces of others.
Theological Justification as a Tool of State Violence: Tim details how Christian Nationalism, rooted in white evangelical theology, helps believers justify cruelty in the name of “law and order.” (52:28–52:55)
Pragmatic Debate About Protest: April voices anxiety about how the protest might be weaponized in propaganda, but both ultimately agree that “trying to tiptoe around MAGA persecution narratives is futile—they will always claim victimhood regardless.” (65:00–73:39)
Historical Parallels: Both liken the situation to past Christian complicity in Jim Crow, lynching, and segregation, underlining that protest, disruption, and prophetic witness have always been necessary tools of justice.
Hope and Exhaustion: The episode closes with personal reflections on the psychological toll of activism and maintaining hope. Citing MLK, April reminds listeners:

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” (78:53)

Important Segment Timestamps

ICE Video Montage & Discussion: 08:46–16:35
Introduction of Pastor/ICE Director & Protest Details: 17:20–24:06
Protest Organizer Interview (Nekima Levy Armstrong): 29:53–32:41
Don Lemon Confronts Churchgoer: 41:31–46:43
Don Lemon Confronts Pastor: 52:33–53:33
SBC History & Legacy: 32:41–36:03
Persecution Narrative & Twitter Response: 55:38–65:00
Personal Reflection & Hope: 77:24–79:39

Tone and Language

Passionate, direct, and at times emotionally raw—hosts alternate between sorrow, anger, frustration, and dark humor.
Frequent use of rhetorical questions for self-examination and shaking listeners out of complacency.
Unapologetically critical of Christian nationalism and the “both sides” approach to truth.
Strong emphasis on facts, sources, and lived ethical context (not just “theology in a vacuum”).

Concluding Thoughts

Tim and April frame the Cities Church protest and subsequent “Christian persecution” outcry as emblematic of broader spiritual, political, and moral crisis in American Christianity. They urge vigilance, solidarity, and action in the face of state violence, misinformation, and historical amnesia—always grounded in a faith of love, justice, and compassion that transcends party or nationalist agenda.

“We can’t negotiate with people who think that you’re demonic. That’s my point. And I don’t know what to do with that.” (73:39)

“That’s why we do this show... because we want to show up for people—and frankly, people show up for us.” (79:39)

For full context, further resources, and community, visit The New Evangelicals.

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81. Persecution or Protest? The MAGA Pearl Clutching Continues