82. Can Christians Support ICE? Why Allie Beth Stuckey and MAGA are Wrong

Summary

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The Tim & April Show – Episode 82

Title: Can Christians Support ICE? Why Allie Beth Stuckey and MAGA are Wrong
Date: January 27, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Podcast: The New Evangelicals

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Episode Overview

This episode confronts a controversial question at the intersection of faith, politics, and immigration policy: Can Christians support the tactics of ICE, especially as defended by right-wing pundit Allie Beth Stuckey and the MAGA movement? With empathy, order, and Christian values at stake, Tim and April critique Stuckey’s defense of ICE and examine the broader implications of Christian nationalism’s stance on immigration. The dialogue is both personal and analytical, challenging listeners to ponder the ethical ramifications of aligning Christian faith with harsh immigration enforcement.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why Respond to Allie Beth Stuckey?

• Allie Beth Stuckey is highlighted because she uniquely bridges the evangelical and political worlds, influencing a large audience with her blend of Christian language and political commentary.
• Tim (05:03): “She’s one of the few political media pundits who really has a foot in both the evangelical fundamentalist world and in politics... That’s why we highlight her positions.”

2. Stuckey’s “Toxic Empathy” Argument

• Stuckey claims that empathy can be dangerous, leading people to ignore laws and broader consequences out of misplaced compassion—especially regarding immigrant families.
• Allie Beth Stuckey (09:47): “Empathy blinds you to both reality and morality. Empathy makes you focus on only one person on the side of the moral equation and makes you forget about the rights and the needs and the privacy and the fairness for the person on the other side of the moral equation.”
• April and Tim challenge the premise, arguing that empathy is central to Christian ethics and that using it as a pejorative undermines the gospel’s call to love our neighbors.

3. Use of Crime Statistics and Stereotypes

• Stuckey cites selective statistics about immigrants and crimes to justify harsh ICE actions, but Tim and April reveal the manipulative framing:

  • April (12:16): “If we just look at that, that is a very small percentage of the people coming across the border that are committing these crimes. She doesn’t even realize what she just proved.”
  • Tim (13:18): “Data point Ali is not citing here: Undocumented immigrants are half as likely to commit any kind of crime compared to native born counterparts.”

• They emphasize that Stuckey uses her data to stoke fear and reinforce racial stereotypes, whereas equivalent statistics on white Americans or clergy are never used in similar fashion by the right.

4. The “Nation as Family/Home” Analogy

• Stuckey analogizes nations to families that have the right to “lock their doors”—suggesting that limiting refugee and migrant entry is an act of parental responsibility.
  • Tim (20:41): “This is a horrible analogy. America is not a house. There is plenty of room in America for people to live without disrupting other people.”
  • April and Tim point out the hypocrisy and historical amnesia, noting that many white Christians are descendants of immigrants themselves and that the analogy ignores indigenous histories.

5. Selective Use of Romans 13

• Stuckey invokes Romans 13 to assert the God-given right and duty of governments to enforce borders and deport “illegals.”

  • April (17:30): “They only ever bring up that verse when a Republican is president… Do you remember when everyone was trying to get the COVID vaccine?... They were like, do not comply.”

• The hosts highlight the inconsistency: order and law are valued only when it serves MAGA goals. They also criticize the silence on ICE abuses against actual citizens and on American imperialism abroad.

6. Racism and Christian Nationalism in Immigration Policy

• Stuckey’s arguments are dissected as dog whistles for white supremacy and exclusionary nationalism, which ignores or erases immigrants who are themselves Christian.

  • Tim (22:44): “The true American citizen is not the brown-skinned immigrant who has citizenship. It’s about maintaining America as a mostly white, European-centric, conservative Christian country.”
  • April (23:01): “It is so racist to just assume that, oh, you’re immigrant, you automatically have to be violent.”

• Tim provides Cato Institute stats: “65% of people taken by ICE had no convictions, 93% no violent convictions.” (26:10, 24:06)

7. ICE Tactics: Order or Disorder?

• Stuckey supports ICE as preserving “God’s order,” contrasting godly order with Babel-esque chaos.

  • Ali Beth Stuckey (33:38): “Christians should be for that because we serve a God of peace, not a God of disorder… That’s why he created laws, that’s why he created borders...”

• Tim and April present evidence of ICE’s disorder: brutality, racial profiling, violation of due process, and traumatizing families—including a viral video where ICE agents harass someone “because of your accent.” (46:16–46:36)

  • Tim (34:27): “This is not order, Ali. This is Minneapolis. This is what ICE is doing to people.”

8. Moral Double Standards and Hypocrisy

• The hosts juxtapose Stuckey’s outrage at immigrant crime with conservative indifference toward clergy sexual abuse, gun violence, and right-wing chaos (e.g., January 6 insurrection).
  • April (29:41): “Where is this outrage? When pastors get caught in scandals and pedophilia, that happens at a surprisingly higher rate than you would think, but they would never say, oh, we got to get rid of all pastors... They are silent.”
  • Tim (37:48): “Do you think she would apply this to tough gun policy? If we had tough gun policy, those kids in those schools would still be alive... Oh no, wait, that’s a God given right.”

9. Faith, Indoctrination, and Deconstruction

• The latter part turns introspective: Tim and April reflect on how they held similarly hardline beliefs in the past due to evangelical indoctrination.
  • April (48:46): “I want to believe people can change… But I don’t know how to reconcile people reading the same words of Jesus that I read and coming away with ‘Christians should support all the terror that ICE is doing…’”
  • Tim (50:05): “If I am in that headspace… what I believe, deeply, is that Democrats and liberals hate me… So I’m willing to overlook a lot to justify the actions.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• April, on “Toxic Empathy” (08:15):
  “Why is it bad that women, as a mom, you know how desperately you would want to be with your children and how desperately your children would want to be with you, that you would want that for other families as well?”

• Tim, on ICE brutality (34:27):
  “This is not order, Ali. This is Minneapolis. This is what ICE is doing to people. This is the agitation that they are causing.”

• April, on Christian hypocrisy (29:41):
  “Where is this outrage when pastors get caught in scandals and pedophilia? ...they are silent.”

• Tim, on double standards with Romans 13 (17:45):
  “The Bible becomes a weapon to use whenever convenient for them... When your guy’s in office... Oh, Romans 13.”

• April, on American history (20:52):
  “From a very basic standpoint… white people are immigrants. This was not our original land... It’s indigenous people, it’s really their country that we took and stole.”

• Tim, factual counterpoint (26:10):
  “65% of people taken by ICE had no convictions, 93% no violent convictions, according to the Cato Institute. June 20, 2025.”

• Tim, on Christian nationalism (22:44):
  “This is about maintaining America as a mostly white, European centric, conservative, Christian country. Anyone outside of that...is not a real citizen.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:03] Why respond to Allie Beth Stuckey’s videos
• [09:47] Stuckey’s “Toxic Empathy” argument critique
• [12:16–14:13] Dissecting selective immigrant crime statistics
• [17:30] Romans 13 and the selective use of scripture
• [20:41] Critiquing the “nation as home/family” analogy
• [22:44] Racism and the true meaning of citizenship
• [24:06, 26:10] Factual correction: Most ICE detainees have no violent convictions
• [29:41, 30:10] Outrage (or lack thereof) over clergy sex abuse
• [33:38] Stuckey’s “order vs. chaos” rhetoric
• [34:27] Examples of ICE brutality and disorder
• [37:48] Hypocrisy—comparing responses to gun policy and immigration
• [48:46, 50:05] Personal reflections on indoctrination and belief

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Tone & Style

Throughout, Tim and April balance incisive critique, personal stories, and moments of humor (e.g., “It’s like we do a show together!” [33:19]). They are direct but never cruel, making room for empathy and nuance even when expressing frustration. Their language is conversational, informed, and accessible—sharp enough to challenge, gentle enough to engage.

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Summary

This episode powerfully exposes the moral and logical inconsistencies in defending harsh ICE tactics from a Christian perspective, especially as articulated by Allie Beth Stuckey and the MAGA movement. It highlights how Scripture and empathy can be misused as political tools, critiques racism and Christian nationalism’s influence on immigration law, and underscores the need for Christians to confront propaganda in their midst. The conversation provokes listeners to reexamine what loving one’s neighbor truly means—urging faith communities to center compassion, justice, and truth over partisan fearmongering and exclusion.

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Transcript

[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

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[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[Ali Beth Stuckey]

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[April Ajoy]

Anything is possible.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

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[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

Get started today@stitch fix.com you're listening to a new evangelicals production. This is the Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hey everyone. Just wanted to let you know that this episode was recorded on Thursday, January 22nd. We had a little bit of a delay in getting this to podcast, but just wanted to let you know that we recorded this before Alex Preddy was shot and killed by ICE agents in Minnesota. And we will be addressing what happened later this week on the show. Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I am April A joy. I am Tim Whitaker and it is a Tuesday.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yay. I wonder what breaking news we're going to read today.

[April Ajoy]

April. Oh dear Lord. Well, this is our pre record.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

So yep. If there's breaking news that happens during this recording, it will not be breaking news when this airs.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. No, that's what I meant. I meant like in the, in the real moment. I wonder what Tuesday breaking news we're going to read offline in preparation for our Thursday live. Who knows? Oh, who knows?

[April Ajoy]

Who knows?

[Tim Whitaker]

Maybe we, maybe by this time, and I don't know, maybe by this time we've actually invaded Greenland. For all we know, we don't know what's going to happen. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Possibility of knock on wood, that we don't do that, that would go down in history is like the stupidest. Moo. Anyway, another, that's another topic.

[Tim Whitaker]

But that is saying something about maga if that's the stupid. You know, like there's a lot, there's a laundry list of stupid things. Yeah. So anyway, well, onto other, I guess stupid things.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Speaking of stupid. So we are going to actually be responding to another video of our favorite, that's a strong word Christian nationalist woman, Ali Beth Stuckey. This is, I think this is from the same video, like long form video that we responded to before where she was doing her weird ice thing. She's talking about the, the murder of Renee Good. This is her take she, where she talks about empathy more and remember she wrote about toxic empathy. And I just want to apologize in advance because I did see a few comments where like I can't even watch this video because you find you just can't listen to her. And I get that. I feel the same. I, I, I do, I feel very similar when she talks. It's, it's hard because she has, she, the, have you heard like people talk about that, the baby voice that a lot of like fundamentalist women have. She kind of has that where you, you're saying it in this like really sweet, like kind of kind voice, but you're saying just like really harmful stuff that's coming out.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

So yeah, we'll watch and respond to this in real time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Can I mention people might think that we are picking on Ali because we respond to her a lot. I want to point out the reason why we highlight her a lot is because she's one of the few political media pundits who really has a foot in both the evangelical fundamentalist world and in politics. There are not many commentators who have their feet kind of equally in both spaces. And so I mean, that's why also you and I responded to a lot of Charlie Kirk before he was killed because he also was bringing on people who were from the evangelical Christian nationalist world. So we're, we, we pick up on Ally a lot because she really is speaking to the white evangelical, like suburban wife or young adult or, you know, whatever, mother. And it's important for you guys to see how she presents herself and kind of laces her poison in like this, this air and approach of sweetness and talking gently and trying to sound like she really cares. But in reality, as we're gonna see, once again, what she's saying is actually incredibly damaging to our neighbors. And also, I would argue, is built on lies. So I just wanna give the audience kind of like the behind the scenes thought process. It's not. We're not trying to tear Alli apart every single day, but she's one of the few commentators in both of these worlds.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And I. And we don't. We'll. We'll go a month or two without even mentioning her, but she is one of the bigger names in this world. And I also want to point out you and I recognize that she's very political and very Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

I think most people that follow her would view her as pretty much only a Christian voice. She's where like they view it as. Yeah, she's talking about politics, but only because that's what a good Christian should do.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ajoy]

It's. And so in a way, it's kind of more damning than if she was just a political pundit because people are coming to her to hear gospel truth, to hear biblical truth, and they're being fed political propaganda that they think is just what good Christians should hear and what good Christians should learn. So it's, it's, it's a little more insidious than just, you know, she's not like a lifestyle blog, you know, 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%. As always, friends, make sure to give this video a like and subscribe to the channel if you're watching on YouTube, if you're listening on podcasts, thank you so much. Make sure to follow the show. We actually hit the charts about a week ago because one of our videos went viral. So you following the show and downloading it really helps us when it comes to getting on those charts. And we appreciate all of our listeners and people who watch this. So.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

On the Apple charts.

[Tim Whitaker]

On the Apple charts. It was a big deal.

[April Ajoy]

We forgot to mention that.

[Brent]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

So cool. All right, well, here we go. We'll try and pause as infrequently as possible, but there's a lot to go through. Just letting you know.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Axios report said that women are among those leading the charging efforts to reunite immigrant children with their families in response to the Zero tolerance, immigration policy, and family separation. And it is all because these women are led by their empathy and led by their instinct to mother. And.

[April Ajoy]

Why is that bad? Why is it bad that women, as a mom, you know how desperately you would want to be with your children and how desperately your children would want to be with you, that you would want that for other families as well.

[Tim Whitaker]

You and I have not watched this whole video. We like doing the Blind Reacts. So I. What I'm wondering is what is the criminality of a mother with their children who's an immigrant in America that deserves that? Like, are they committing crimes? Like, because Ali's probably, I'm assuming, is gonna justify why this is all good because of the criminals that are flooding our streets. But the mothers who are being separated from their children are not criminals. They're human. They're. They're people who are doing nothing wrong. It is wild to watch Ali tell her audience that that feeling you get of, oh, that's wrong, because I wouldn't want my child ripped out of my arms for any reason, is somehow you giving in to toxic empathy. And I'm assuming she's setting up, like, her book that she's gonna promo at some point throughout this video. Wow. Wait. On one hand, your goal is to become the ultimate job of a woman is to become a mother who loves their children. On the other hand, if you see a mother being ripped from their children, don't let your toxic empathy feel bad for them, because they deserve it. What are we doing?

[April Ajoy]

I don't know. Let's see what she says.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Just wanna read you. I just wanna read you a few passages from my book, Toxic Empathy that just remind us of the other side of this issue and why empathy is not a good guide. Empathy blinds you to both reality and morality. Empathy makes you focus on only one person on the side of the moral equation and makes you forget about the rights and the needs and the privacy and the fairness for the person on the other side of the moral equation.

[Tim Whitaker]

Before she reads this, I just think it's worth highlighting that that's exactly what Ali is doing. Right. She will highlight Lake and Riley, who was murdered by an undocumented immigrant, which is bad, of course. Of course. And that person was brought to justice or is going through our court system. But then she will use that for her side as excuses to dehumanize the immigrants on the other side who are not responsible in any way for Lake and Riley's death. So what she just said is actually her confession of what she is doing at the very beginning of this video. I just think that's worth highlighting here.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Okay. So I really encourage you to read, if you read no other chapter, I really encourage you to read the immigration chapter from Toxic Empathy. It was my favorite to write. And it was also. It was very difficult to write because the statistics are all so incredibly heartbreaking. What illegal immigration does to the safety and the security of our country and how children have been. Have been affected by this. Let me just read you these stats. In fiscal year 2023, Border Patrol recorded 1254 illegal immigrants convicted of assault, battery, or domestic violence. 2,493 convicted for driving under the influence. 2055 for illegal drug possession and trafficking. That's just those arrested, tried, and convicted. In fiscal year 2021, Border Patrol made nearly 1.7 million apprehensions of illegal immigrants. There was this story that I told of a Border Patrol agent finding an infant, what looked like a newborn and a toddler just stranded in the desert by these drug traffickers.

[April Ajoy]

Hold on a second. If I'm hearing her correctly, she says in 2021, they apprehended 1.7, I think is what she said. Million, quote, unquote, illegal immigrants. That came through.

[Brent]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

And but before that, she says that they arrested like a couple thousand for.

[Tim Whitaker]

In 2023.

[April Ajoy]

In 2023. So if we just look at that, you could assume that. I'm sure that that number was probably similar of the total amount that came through or that were detained later, that is a very small percentage of the amount of people coming across the border that are committing these crimes. Like she doesn't even realize what she just proved.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, this actually, this actually demonstrates the point and the data point that Ali is not citing here that undocumented immigrants are half as likely to commit any kind of crime compared to native born counterparts. Now, of course, all of these things are bad, by the way. Of course. But to make it seem like the source of America's drug epidemic or the source of all the crime in America is coming from these quote unquote illegals, Even Ali's own data doesn't bear that out. And by the way, if we actually had a robust immigration system that was designed to vet people and to also expedite people who want to come here in healthy and safe ways, that number would probably even be lower regarding who actually came into the border that way. But because the system is inherently broken and people like Trump use their leverage to tell people in the Congress not to support Joe Biden's most conservative Reform bill in modern history, we have a very broken system. But these numbers, while bad, are not like, oh my God, what is happening? They're pretty low. I'm kind of shocked how low they are, frankly.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and think of how much higher that number is. If you're just going to talk about the amount of American citizens that were arrested for assault and battery or domestic violence or drug possession or DUIs, like, should we just like arrest everybody? Since it's really important to highlight violence.

[Tim Whitaker]

It'S important to highlight the sleight of hand that Ali's doing here. Ali is using these numbers to paint in her audience's mind undocumented immigrants, which is really brown skinned people. Right. No one thinks of a white, blue eyed, you know, blonde haired person as undocumented. We were taught to think about someone from south of the border. She's using these numbers to paint this narrative that if you see a brown skinned person who speaks Spanish, they're most likely doing criminal activity. But when it comes to all of the clergy abuse that we see. Right. When it comes to John MacArthur, a huge hero of hers who has credible accusations of him protecting two different child molesters on his staff, or when it comes to the fact that most mass shooters are white men, well, those numbers aren't used to paint a broad brush that all white men are inherently more criminal. Right. Because, and by the way, I agree with that. Like, I think that we should use data, but we also shouldn't paint stereotypes of people groups based on what bad people do in those people groups. But Ali's not going to do that here. She's intentionally using these numbers to convince your audience to think brown skinned immigrant equals someone like this. And that's the xenophobia, that's the racism that we're highlighting here. Yeah, it's important to kind of expose that because it's the unseen part of this, you know, okay, we'll keep going.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And a toddler just stranded in the desert by these drug traffickers and these human traffickers. Human trafficking and drug trafficking is enabled and exacerbated by open borders. If you care about those children, if you care about the truly vulnerable, then you will want to shut down our borders and you will want to enforce deportation. The very thing that ICE was trying to do in Minneapolis.

[Tim Whitaker]

That really quick, that actually isn't logically sound. If an infant is with drug traffickers, what you would want to do is not to close your border and send the infant back with the drug traffickers. You would want to take that infant from the drug traffickers and put them somewhere safe, wouldn't you? So it's actually counterintuitive to what she's saying. If you have an infant that is being trafficked by drug smugglers, you want to take the infant from those people, not close down your border and send them back with the drug smugglers. That makes no sense. Just need to say that. It's just. It's. We have to expose the fallacies here. They're all over the place.

[April Ajoy]

Keep going.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

And I just want to give you also the logical perspective on this as well as the biblical perspective before we move into this thing. So this is what I write in this book. Every nation has a right to sovereignty. Sovereignty is legitimacy. A nation's legitimacy is necessary to enact and enforce laws which represent the rights of a country's citizenry. If a country has no borders, it has no sovereignty. If it has no sovereignty, it has no legitimacy. If a country has no legitimacy, it has no authority to create laws. If it has no laws, chaos ensues, rights are lost, and citizenship means nothing. A country without any meaningful citizenship isn't a country at all. Every sovereign nation must have the right to enforce immigration policy that protects its citizens and their rights. It's not only our right to do so, it is also our responsibility. Remember Romans 13, that the government was instituted by God to reward those who do good and to punish those who do evil?

[April Ajoy]

Okay, pause. They only ever bring up that verse when a Republican is president. I never heard them. I never heard them say that verse when Joe Biden was president. In fact, do you remember when everyone was trying to get the COVID vaccine?

[Tim Whitaker]

I do.

[April Ajoy]

April, Remember, they were like, do not comply.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right? We have to resist tyranny. And then they created. And, And, And, And Scott call. Scott Coley calls this a legitimizing narrative. It's the idea that. That you tell stories that are going to reinforce your mythology, that you believe. So the Bible becomes a weapon to use whenever convenient for them. So when mass mandates are in place, when a pandemic happens and you don't like it, you find the theological justification to say, well, Romans 13 doesn't apply here because tyranny. But when your guy's in office, who's actually creating tyranny, who's actually deporting citizens, by the way, sometimes, right? Oh, Romans 13. And that's the piece that I want to say to Ali's, you know, little paragraph there about. From her book. No one is talking about not having borders. No one is talking about the keeping people who are doing bad, terrible things, who are not from America, in America. But this administration is sending federal agents that are arresting citizens. We have video of citizens who are brown skinned, who have accents, being arrested or deport or kidnapped by ICE agents in brutal ways, who are doing nothing wrong. So what's actually happening is the same framework of Ali saying if we don't have a right to make laws, we have chaos. That's actually what's happening. Because citizens are afforded, or actually anyone. The Supreme Court ruled in America, anyone within its borders is afforded due process. What ICE is doing is not due process, not uncontrollable.

[April Ajoy]

There's no topical cause, et cetera, to citizens. That's what I'm saying. People that are undocumented. Yeah, right. Also, what Trump is trying to do to Greenland is not respecting the sovereignty of a nation.

[Tim Whitaker]

Or Venezuela.

[April Ajoy]

I haven't seen her say anything about that. Yeah, or Venezuela anyway.

[Tim Whitaker]

Because this is how imperialism works. Right? It's justification for me, but not for thee. We're a sovereign nation so we can export brown skinned people that we don't like because America, but Venezuela we should be able to invade. Or we can bomb Iran whenever we want. Or we can take over Greenland because we're America.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

To think that it is immoral or it is unjust to deport people who are here illegally have no problem locking their own doors, having their own walls, deadbolting their own fences. And the truth is nations are like families. The government is supposed to put the interest in the well being, the safety of our people first. Just because you lock your door and you don't let any stranger come into your home doesn't mean that you hate your neighbors. It doesn't make you bigoted. It means that you love your children. If you allowed people that you don't know that you haven't vetted into your home to sleep in your kid's bed and to eat your kids food, you wouldn't be a good neighbor, you would be a bad parent.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is a horrible analogy. America is not a house. There is plenty of room in America for people to live without disrupting other people.

[April Ajoy]

And also like, from a very basic standpoint, we, like white people are immigrants. This was not our original land. Yeah, I mean that's like, we're like five steps from making that argument because we're so in the weeds on this stupidity. But at the very like, it's just, it's just so to hear like white Christians just be like, we must respect our borders. This is our country. I'M like, no, it's not. It's indigenous people. It's really their country that we took and stole.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think it's really telling that Ali talks about citizens a lot. Right? Hey, a country has a right to protect its citizens. Well, it's not, though. Is Trump protecting his citizens? No. Unless you're a white, conservative Christian. And that is the tell here for Ali. The true American citizen is not the brown skinned immigrant who has citizenship. It's not the person who is from a different country who is migrated here and went through the legal process. And this isn't. It's not the liberal, it's not the progressive Christian. Right. Our view is some. I'm a citizen. I want a robust border that also welcomes refugees and isn't kidnapping its neighbors. Does. Do I have a say here, Ali? Do I, do I as a citizen have a say about what happens in this house? It's not your. Just if we're going to use the house analogy, Ali, it's not just your house. You know, it's my house too. It's April's house too. And we want people to, to come here who want to come here as long as they don't want to commit any kind of crime. And we should create our process for that. But that's not what this is really about. The presuppositions underneath of this are so important to highlight. This is about maintaining America as a mostly white, European centric, conservative, Christian country. Anyone outside of that, in Alvy's world is not a real citizen. That is that that should be afforded the same access to privilege and rights as her. That's what it comes down to and it's not.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, and you're so right too, about the, the whole racist aspect of this, because it is such, it is so racist to just assume that, oh, you're immigrant automatically have to be violent. What this is. Unless of course, you're a white African that we rolled the red carpet out for.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right, exactly. We, we, we and we, we, we, we just have to be clear right here. We have to be clear eyed. This is propaganda. We know data wise, it's not about violent crime. 93% of migrants who have been kidnapped by this administration have no violent convictions in America. 93%.

[April Ajoy]

Is it 93%? Where's that number from?

[Tim Whitaker]

The Cato Institute? Fact check me. Go ahead, I'm ready.

[April Ajoy]

Okay. No, I trust you. I just know, I know someone in the comments is going to be like, where's that from?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, Cato Institute.

[April Ajoy]

So hold On.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think it's 65% have no conviction of any kind, and 93% have no violent conviction. Something like that. Look it up.

[April Ajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

I put it in the video last week. I think that's why it's fresh in my mind.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, that's good. Okay. Cato immigrants have lower lifetime incarceration rates than. When is this. Sorry.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Not.

[April Ajoy]

Not to derail us. Makeup.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll look it up.

[April Ajoy]

I just want to make sure we are.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, it's right here. It's from Face. Cato Institute. Analysis in June 2025 found 93% of people taken by ICE had no violent history. And it's right here. Cato Institute. I'll put. I'll put up. Put it up on the screen. Hold on.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah, that's good.

[Tim Whitaker]

Get rid of this. I will.

[April Ajoy]

I think we're just all, like. We have an aversion to people that just throw out numbers, because that's what the Trump administration does, and they don't have anything to back it up. So this is.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm not at all offended.

[April Ajoy]

There you go.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's do it.

[Brent]

Hi, my name is Brent, and I live in central Illinois. And I'm a new donor to the New Evangelicals. I spent about 30 years in ministry, half the time as a missionary overseas and half the time serving in two small US Churches as a pastor. During those years, I had lots of questions and doubts, and I saw so many inconsistencies in the way that we dealt with theology and the Bible and just our American church culture. It was very frustrating to me. And so I kept going to sources to try to find answers to make sense of it all, but just never found something that made sense to me. A year ago, I did step down from being a pastor, not because of those things, but for other reasons. And I started a deep dive into going to other sources, including the New Evangelicals podcast that has really helped me to reframe my faith. And it's kind of like the old prescription of glasses that I was wearing to see God and my faith and Christianity just wasn't cutting it anymore. And the new prescription of glasses has allowed me to be able to see things so much better. So I'm on a different path. And I'm very thankful to Tim and the New Evangelicals for introducing me to different guests and commentaries. That's helping reshape my faith. So being a donor is a great privilege, and I appreciate the work you're doing.

[Tim Whitaker]

65% of people taken by ICE had no convictions, 93% no violent convictions, according to the Cato Institute. June 20, 2025. That's the data we also know, by the way. And I can, I can find this maybe later on. I don't have it handy, but something like between 40 to 60% of all the migrants who have been taken by ICE are either Catholic or evangelical. Like these are Christians too. Which again feeds into. Isn't Allie concerned about Christianity in America, about the rights of Christians?

[April Ajoy]

Are they not Christians, Ally for her brand? A lot of them are probably Catholic and according to them, that also is not Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

But that's another conversation.

[Tim Whitaker]

While we have a second again to an audience who might not be very familiar with this world, you have to understand that for people like Ali, for evangelical fundamentalists, progressive Christians are not true Christians. Brown skinned immigrants who are Catholic or evangelical are not real Christians if they're here undocumented. So they shouldn't be afforded the same rights or protections as someone like Allie and her tribe should be. This is not about the things that they say ever. It's always about maintaining their power and their control.

[April Ajoy]

Right. Renee Goode, her ex husband told everyone she was a Christian. They don't. They don't think. They wouldn't say she was a true Christian Christian because she was queer, despite the fact that queer Christians exist.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. They're not going to call her a martyr like how they called Charlie Kirk a martyr. Right. It's not about Christianity. It's about a very specific brand of Christianity that just so happens to line up with the entire MAGA agenda, beat for beat. Just so happens because somehow magically, that's just what God's word clearly teaches. Who? I can't believe it.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, yeah, we need to also specify, because we made that point in an episode or two ago and there were a few MAGA people that were like you said it, that God's agenda just happens to line up with the conservatives. Like they, they don't understand being facetious or satire. So I just want to clearly point out, just for those people, we're not saying that God's agenda lines up with the conservatives. That is what conservatives say. It is propaganda, by the way, that they twist scripture to justify it. So just putting that out there since apparently we gotta spell it out for you.

[Tim Whitaker]

The Bible doesn't mention abortion. It doesn't talk about gay marriage. It doesn't mention transgender people. It doesn't talk about. Actually it commands the nation of Israel and the followers of Christ to welcome the immigrant. It mentions economic justice over a thousand times. So no, you don't say I. I hate to sound like a woke progressive, but if you read the dang thing, you will find that many of the culture war issues like owning more guns is foreign to the Bible. I know. Crazy stuff. It's crazy stuff. I know. It's wild. Okay, we'll keep going. Here we go.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Likewise, our government would be bad if they were not sending ice into these cities to deport illegal aliens who are not only here illegally. That would be enough to deport someone. By the way, every, every government has that right and responsibility to maintain that sovereignty that we just talked about. But also, unless you're Venezuela, to deport the worst people in the world. We're talking about people who raped a child. And you want to impede that justice. That is the God given and righteous responsibility of any government.

[Tim Whitaker]

I want to read you something.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Go ahead.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, you go first. You go first. You go first.

[April Ajoy]

I. Where is this outrage? When pastors get caught in scandals and pedophilia, that happens at a surprisingly higher rate than you would think. But the. But they would never say, oh, we must. We need to get rid of all churches. We got it. We got to get rid of all pastors. And I, I wouldn't even say that either, but that. The reality is that happens a lot and they are silent.

[Tim Whitaker]

Just gonna read you guys a few headlines from an Instagram account I follow called Reich Wing Watch. They always have sources and I will censor this, but trigger warning. Sexual abuse. Arkansas man who r worded multiple children says he was just following the Bible. Let's see, we have another one. Indiana Trump supporter and daycare worker Jamie has been arrested for essaying a seven year old nonverbal child. A North Carolina man who's affiliated with the Republican Party, Kevin Michael Tyler, has been arrested on child SA and false imprisonment charges. And like I said earlier, John MacArthur, one of the most prominent evangelical pastors to have ever lived. His Bible, his study Bible has sold millions of copies. Allie has had him on her podcast multiple times. John MacArthur has credible accusations that have been well documented with receipts, emails, police reports, all that stuff that he covered up. Two men on his staff who molested their own children. When an elder on the board tried to bring this up and say, hey, we have a problem here. They dismissed the elder.

[April Ajoy]

And what. What about. Was it Eileen Gray.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Too. Her husband was convicted.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Of saying he was one of the pastors. He was later convicted.

[April Ajoy]

He was convicted, went to jail and he publicly shamed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

His wife when she wanted a divorce from the.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. So just, just for the details on this, because I know this story so well. Eileen Gray was told to stay with her abusive husband. She at the time did not know that he was essaying her children, but he, but he was verbally and physically assaulting both of them. Elder said, you should stay with your husband. She said no. John MacArthur publicly shamed her from the pulpit and excommunicated her. And I think a couple, a year or two later, he was then convicted on child, you know, sexual abuse. And again, what Ali is doing here is exactly what she said that people with toxic empathy do, right? They prioritize one side to make it, you know, to use it as a way to like, you know, ignore the other side. That's exactly what she's doing. The Southern Baptist Convention has decades of hidden abuse of children and adults. Robert Morris, right s aid a 12 year old in the 80s, hit it for like two and a half decades and is now serving prison time for it. But for Ali, those things aren't. No, no, no, guys, guys, don't worry about that. You have to worry about the undocumented immigrant. All of them, Every single one. Because we have examples of a few of them being bad apples, which, by the way, they should be brought to justice. Of course, I support that. That's the difference here. It's infuriating. It's infuriating. If you're enjoying this video, friends, give.

[April Ajoy]

It a like, enjoy. Enjoy might be a strong word.

[Tim Whitaker]

If you have thoughts, put it in the comments. We love reading the comments. If you like this kind of content, this response kind of content, give the video a like, it helps us.

[April Ajoy]

I like that both of us were on the same wavelength there when she was saying that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

It's like we do a show together.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's like, oh, by the way, Trump's an adjudicated rapist.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

And the Epstein files, like, Ally, you can't be real here. You cannot be serious. Sorry, I'll stop ranting.

[April Ajoy]

It's just so crazy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here we go.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Christians should be for that because we serve a God of peace, not a God of disorder. We understand that disorder and chaos are curses for a nation and that God is a God of order who places in a garden, not a jungle. From the very beginning, we see that orderliness is a gift and a blessing for image bearers of God and for nations. That's why he created laws, that's why he created borders. That's why he created nations. That's why he created governments, and that's why The Tower of Babel. And what befell those people when they were trying to be like God and build a tower up to God of chaos and not being able to understand each other and speaking in all different languages, that was a curse. What happened after the Tower of Babel? Having all different people speak in all different languages and not being able to understand each other was a curse.

[Tim Whitaker]

I have to show people something here who are watching. This is not order, Ali. This is Minneapolis. This is what ICE is doing to people. This is the agitation that they are causing. Oh, I got hit in the head really bad. Storming the capitol building on January 6th is not read.

[April Ajoy]

Can I read you what she said about January 6th?

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank again, we're on this. We're always in the same way. I love that. Go ahead.

[April Ajoy]

Yes. This was October of this past year. Okay. This is. So she has a 16 minute video where she talks to someone called Garth Struttlefudd and then parentheses says Kyle Mann. I don't understand what that means, but. So this is the write up from that video she said. In this episode, we sit down with renowned journalist Garth Struttlefudd to discuss his harrowing experience uncovering. This is sarcastic. To discuss his harrowing experience uncovering the evil forces behind the darkest day in American History, January 6, 2021. We discussed some of the most terrifying moments from the riots at the Capitol that day, including people walking, someone moving, a lectern, perhaps worst of all, someone's grandmother praying. Garth also tells us about how Trump's theocratic fascist supporters are voting for him because of ridiculous issues like the economy and how he alone was able to shame them in order to save our democracy. Kamala Harris is our one and only hope. So this was from October of 2024?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. She doesn't mention the noose that they brought or the, the poop that they smeared on the walls or the Ashley Babbitt died. Yeah. Or the people breaking windows and a shoar inside of it. Remember that video we covered on the January 6th anniversary with Matthew Taylor? Like, again, I, I, we have to be clear. She's lying. Ally is not a truth teller. She's a propagandist. Okay. She goes in this monologue about, about order and then defends chaos because it's her side. She defends a man who violently assaults women. She defends a man who is violent towards other people who is causing chaos all over the world right now by making weird statements about taking over Greenland. By the way, the economy's not doing great. I'm not sure. If Ali like has watched our jobs reports come in. The economy is not, is not rebounding at all. Inflation is still up. Job creation is not that high. The so called industrial boom that Trump promised with tariffs never happened. So like, even by the economic side didn't happen. Not happening. We're, we're, we're, our, our media cycle is chaotic. Trump is posting CGI videos of himself taking dumps on peaceful protesters. And we're supposed to believe that Ali believes in order and beauty and peace and love and justice. You're joking. This has got to be satire. Alley.

[April Ajoy]

Like, wow, you would think, you would.

[Tim Whitaker]

Think, April, you would think. Okay, a couple more minutes, friends. We're getting through it. But wow, I mean it's, it's wild.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

To watch the curse then and it's a curse now. It's disorder, it's chaos. Tough immigration policy is good. It would have been good for Lake and Riley. It would have been good for Kate Steinle. It would have been good for those kids who were trafficked by coyotes through the desert. It would have been good for all of those children who were raped or assaulted or kidnapped or harmed. The people who were killed, the people who have died because it was an illegal alien was driving under the influence. If we had tough immigration policy, those people would be alive.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you think that she would apply this to tough gun policy? If we had tough gun policy, those kids in those schools would still be alive. Right? They would have graduated by, by now. The Sandy Hook children or the. I'm blanking out on so many of the names. But you know, the ones in Florida that the Parkland shooting and the one in Uvalde. Right. Wouldn't they be alive? We just had tougher gun control. If we had stricter background checks, if we really enforced right, healthy gun laws that kept those guns out of the hands of people who did so much evil. Oh no, wait, that's a God given right. We have to just deal with that right, because remember, her friend Charlie Kirk said we have to expect some kind of gun casualties for a second Amendment. So we have to live with that. But, oh, we need this, these tough immigration policies because the children, it's just such a.

[April Ajoy]

But again, again, it's not even the tough immigration policies because that you pointed out last week or two weeks ago. Joe Biden did put forth a really like pretty conservative immigration bill that Trump told all the Republicans to kill because it would be bad for his reelection.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let me, let me read you guys something. This is from San Diego Tribune. During his tenure President Obama removed over 3 million people from the country, more than his predecessors, Presidents Clinton and Bush combined, and more than 1.2 million that Trump removed during his first term. And guess what? Obama did that without sending ICE agents into city streets, killing unarmed citizens, without this show of force, kidnapping people who are citizens with no due process, taking men out of their home in their underwear and freezing temperature. Obama deported 3 million people during his tenure without doing what Trump is doing now. So for all this talk about progressives want open borders, Obama actually had a stricter border policy than Trump did in his first administration, according to just the raw numbers, and he did it without all of the nonsense we're seeing now. And point two I need to make here, because data matters to me. I believe it is Texas that is like, number two in the country as far as the amount of undocumented immigrants in the state. Minnesota is something like 23rd in the country. Yet Trump is so focused on Minnesota.

[April Ajoy]

Why Nick Shirley and his Somalian fraud daycare video.

[Tim Whitaker]

Or maybe he hates Tim Waltz. Maybe he hates blue cities. Again, it's not about the thing they say it's about. If it was, you would invade Texas. You would go after the top five states with undocumented immigrants, wouldn't you? You wouldn't go down to number 23rd in a state that has a city, Minneapolis, that ranks, I think, in the top 100 safest cities in America, or maybe top 50. Like, you wouldn't be doing that. It's not about safety. It's about power. It's about conquest. It's about violence. That's what this administration is built on. Oh, it makes me frustrated to see Ally just simp for this stuff in her sweet voice of like, I'm just being biblical. No, you're not. No, you're not. You're being Antichrist.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I don't know. Oh, yeah. Minneapolis has a mixed safety profile. It's considered safer than some major US Cities, but I don't know that it's one of the safest. But I do think.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think It's a top 100. I think it's a top 100.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. It doesn't matter. But you're totally right, though. That's the thing that is so infuriating, because they don't have good faith arguments. They convince all of their followers, all of her listeners and viewers, that anyone on the left or anyone who's not a Trump supporter, anyone who doesn't support what ICE is doing right now is for open borders, is for chaos, is for anarchy, is for violence, which is just not true at any data point you talk to anybody. That is not true whatsoever.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Ugh.

[Tim Whitaker]

I have. I have my fact checking. Minnesota ranks among safest states in 2025. That's according to a study. It ranks number two in road safety, number 23 in personal residential safety. So as a state, as far as cities go, according to Wallet Hub, safest cities in America. St. Paul ranks as 47th in Minneapolis at 116th. So I was in the ballpark. In the ballpark, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, and I was. I, you know, again, just trying to put the source out there.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah. I'm not offended at all. I like it.

[April Ajoy]

Well, also, when you think of Minnesotans, they're like. They're like our Canadians. I feel like they're just like some of the nicest people.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. You ever watch. Sharon says so like, she's from Minnesota.

[April Ajoy]

In order for you to get, like, the kindest people in the world to come out and protest you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

You know, you're on the wrong side.

[Tim Whitaker]

Not to mention, one of the greatest movie trilogies of all time was filmed there. The Mighty Ducks.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh, the Mighty Ducks. What a throwback.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's a classic. I. I can. I can recite D2 almost line by line. It's one of my absolute favorites.

[April Ajoy]

So I don't think I've seen that since the 90s.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, we'll have to watch it sometime that April. All right, let's wrap this thing up.

[Brent]

Geez.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Because remember, the difference between a crime committed by an illegal alien and a crime committed by a citizen is that the crime committed by an illegal alien was completely preventable. So, Christian, you have to understand that as image bearers of God, as followers of Jesus Christ who follow a God of order, that we are to be agents of order. That doesn't mean that we are apologists for all law enforcement. That doesn't mean that we say, hey, treat people with as little dignity as possible. That doesn't even mean that we are trying to defend every action that, you know, that ICE does. It just means that we don't use a tragic situation like this to try to delegitimize the very good, righteous, and, yes, compassionate efforts to enforce our immigration law. It's really.

[Tim Whitaker]

So. Can't we say the opposite? Can't we say, look, you. We can't use the example of Lake and Riley as a way to denigrate the good work that most immigrants do in America, the tax revenue that. That they generate, the jobs that they do, the creativity that that they add to the culture. We could say the same exact thing. And by the way, I would love to know one thing that ICE is doing that Ali has publicly condemned. I would love to know. Because if shooting someone in the head at point blank range and calling her an effing B word as she drives away and hits a. Hits a car, if that won't do it for you, I'm not sure what will do it for you, Ali. Like, at what point will you condemn ICE for what?

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

What?

[Tim Whitaker]

What? There's.

[April Ajoy]

There are video. There's video after video after. There are hundreds, probably thousands, but hundreds that I've personally seen of videos of ICE just beating people up. Yes. Dragging them on the. They dragged a pregnant woman on the ground, taking out old men, zip. Tying children in the middle of the night, barging in like they are traumatizing. They're traumatizing entire groups of people based on the color of their skin. There was that one video. I can't remember if we played it on our show or if I saw it somewhere else, but where they literally went after someone because he had an accent.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I had that here. I can play it if you want. I had the video.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

Sure.

[April Ajoy]

I mean, you might as well. But I'm just saying, like, they are clearly racial profiling people and then just beating up and bullying anyone that stands in their way. And these are not cops. Like, they don't have the right to barge into a house without a warrant.

[Tim Whitaker]

Nor are they trained. These are people picked up off the streets. There was a journalist who got hired by ICE after a six minute interview. She didn't even know that she was hired. She found out, like, in her employee portal, which is obvious, by the way, because the way that these men are behaving, it's clear they have very little training.

[April Ajoy]

There's some women in there, too, and women.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. All right, here's the. Here's the video. Here's the video. Yes, you are required to. Where is safe. Look, sir, you're gonna do this the easy way or are we gonna take you in? You cannot take me. Yes, I can. Privately. Yes, I can. I do have the right documentation. You present it to me. Why you asking me for my paperwork? Because of your accent. I still. You have an accent, too. There you go. I mean, it doesn't. We are not. Look, if. If we're. If we're dealing with a media world that will tell you that January 6th was peaceful and that the election was most likely rigged, these videos are not going to make a dent in Their very thick wall that rejects reality. Just not. It doesn't matter. We could give, we could send Alice Stucky a 10 hour montage back to back of ice arresting citizens and she would still find justification for why overall, what they're doing is great, godly, biblical, orderly work. It does not matter what we tell them because they support a man who has created his own reality. That's the, that's where we are in America. That's where we are.

[April Ajoy]

I honestly don't know how she sleeps at night. I don't know. Yeah, well.

[Tim Whitaker]

When I met her and we talked, you know, we had a decent conversation kind of off camera at the jubilee thing, but it was just clear. Like it's media training. Like she has a Persona, she has a personality that she presents to the world. It could be the real her. I don't think it is personally, and it's really compelling.

[April Ajoy]

That's something I struggle with, that I don't. Because we do live in an age where information is so readily available. Like you can find truth if you have the effort to look for it. So I can't excuse her because she has access to this truth, especially with the amount of money she has, the team that she has, the resources she has, she can know what's true or not.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

But I struggle with like. Like, does she really believe this? Because I know indoctrination can be so powerful, you know? Cause I was heavily indoctrinated and there was a time where I would have gone on a podcast and said exactly what she's saying here and fully believed it.

[Brent]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

You know, but I just feel like it's. I don't know, I, I really struggle because I, I want to believe that people can change when they, like an appeal to their goodness of knowing. Like, okay, if you are really truly wanting to be a Christ follower and follow the teachings of Jesus, you. You have to have good in you. Like, we're taught, like, Christians are the good guys. Like, we want to be on the side of morality and righteousness. And if I can appeal to that, then I, I just want to assume the best of people. Like, if you see a baby being ripped out of a mother's arms, that you would care. But that's not happening here. And I don't know how to reconcile that. I don't know how to reconcile people reading the same words of Jesus that I read and coming away with Christians should support all the terror that ICE is doing and that Jesus would somehow want us to do that.

[Tim Whitaker]

If I think back to, well, first off, to answer your question, from my, my perspective, I think Ali is pretty sincere because she started in fundamentalism, you know, Calvinist, and I grew up Calvinist as well. Or I believed a lot of that. You really believe it. You know, you believe that God has predestined certain people for heaven and some to pass over, and that God is sovereign, that he's controlling everything. It's. It's a deep seated belief maybe that's evolved as she's gotten more fame and more money. You know, maybe she's kind of gone farther because the money's really good and so is the popularity. But I think. I think she's overall pretty genuine in her beliefs. I am trying to put myself in my own shoes from two decades ago when I was listening to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and I had this worldview of like, yeah, like, you know, the left is destroying America and abortion is homicide. You know, I told you I used to wear a shirt that said abortion is homicide in all caps. And on the back it had three statements. It said, you will not silence my message. You will not mock my God. You will stop killing my generation. And, I mean, it was an organization called Rock for Life anyway. If I am in that headspace, what I believe deeply, although ignorantly, is that Democrats and liberals hate me. They hate everything America stands for, which is God and goodness and biblical values, which of course means pro life and marriage, et cetera. And so I really think that Republicans ultimately, when the dust settles, are doing more work as good Christians than Democrats. So I'm willing to kind of overlook a lot to justify the actions. I mean, I remember thinking about the war in Iraq, right, when 9, 11 happened. Yeah. Look, we are the good guys, right? America's always on the side of good. We have God on our side. We have to go and liberate the poor people in Iraq, you know, and liberate them from their false religion. I really believe that. So I just think when you're in that world, your brain is formed to interpret the same things, right? Completely the opposite. The words of Jesus get filtered through. Well, those are for the individual Christian to do. I mean, Al even has a post up, I read it the other day, where she essentially says that the government is here to enforce law, but the Christians are called to feed the poor. It's like you're just making stuff up. Like you're just making stuff up at this point. But, yeah, I think that that's kind of how I think about it.

[April Ajoy]

Well, and also you're Especially if you're raised in it like we were. Your brain is wired to protect the belief. Yeah, first, totally. That's the most important thing. In fact, like, I remember being told, like, be careful if you go off to college because they're gonna try to get you to stop believing. And you have to always believe because if you ever stop believing, you're gonna go to hell. And like, so you're, like, you're trained to. If you come in contact or you see something that goes against what you were taught, you have to do the gymnastics to find a way to make it feel fit into your beliefs. And you're also taught, too, Satan comes as an angel of light. Satan is the great deceiver and he will lie. And so you can't believe anything that doesn't come from a Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Especially those Christians, those gatekeepers. Right. Yeah.

[Ali Beth Stuckey]

I was.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thought the same thing. I was taught that that's why I was homeschooled. My parents and my. I had good parents, by the way, they love me, we get along great, to be clear. But, you know, part of their logic at the time was we don't want our kid being part of the world or being, you know, taught evolution by the public school system. So we're going to homeschool. And same thing with, with, with education, with higher ed. I remember, I remember overhearing as a kid, two parents saying, yeah, I think so. And so is going to a secular school. And they're No. A secular college. You know, like, it was like, like the worst thing possible.

[April Ajoy]

Well, on the amount of pressure that churches also put on parents, that their main job is that those kids grow up to also be Christians.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Like, that's the main job. And I remember, like, if your child rebelled and became like a prodigal and left the faith or went off to a public college or, you know, whatever, then, like, the parents were gossiped about as, like, oh, my gosh, they must have been terrible parents.

[Tim Whitaker]

Without divulging too much of my own, like, family life, I will just say I have firsthand experience with that exact thing. Thing. I watched, you know, my mom go through that anxiety of, oh, my God, what did I do wrong? This isn't working. Etc, and it, it, it created a real anxiety. I mean, she, she worked through it now. Like, she's, she's a lot more, like, healthy, I would say. And she would acknowledge that. But back when she was, like, really in it, she had, I would argue, borderline panic attacks over the fact of, you know, maybe my. One of My siblings not believing the same way anymore. And it really messes up you as a parent. It does. Like, it's really unhealthy.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. No, I mean, the whole, the whole system messes you up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Like, that's another conversation for another time.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's a talk show, right? We can talk. We can yap.

[April Ajoy]

We can talk.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, boy. Yeah. Well, I guess, what do we call this? A successful episode? I mean, I wouldn't call it a good episode.

[April Ajoy]

It was an episode. We got through it.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's not a happy episode. It's an episode.

[April Ajoy]

I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, man. Well, it seems like, you know, friends, it seems like we have this rhythm where a lot of. A lot of times on Tuesdays, our pre record is kind of response content, which honestly, April and I like doing. But it's always good to know if you, the audience enjoy it, if you want different types of content. We just, we, we like to keep our finger on the pulse. But frankly, I think response content is really important because these people have humongous platforms and I think they need to be confronted, you know, and kind of exposed. But we always read the comments. I read the comments. We always see our emails. So if you have any thoughts on what we can do better or more of, or if you. Or if you like this kind of content and want more of it, drop it in the comment on YouTube or you can email us. Tim and April, show atheneweevangelicals.com and yeah, we'll take it into consideration. So. But we appreciate all of you being here. It's been really great doing this for over a year now and we are just getting started. We feel like so immediately the world that we have. You guys listening?

[April Ajoy]

Yep. Ditto.

[Tim Whitaker]

Mega dittos as Rush.

[April Ajoy]

All right, well, join us on Thursday at 12pm Eastern for our next live and who knows what atrocity we'll be talking about then.

[Tim Whitaker]

Can't wait. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

I'm April. Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

See ya, Sam.