88. Allie Beth Stuckey Claims Jesus Said Things He Definitely Did Not Say

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show, Ep. 88

Title: Allie Beth Stuckey Claims Jesus Said Things He Definitely Did Not Say
Date: February 17, 2026
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy (The New Evangelicals)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim and April dive into a critical discussion about Christian political commentator Allie Beth Stuckey and her recent online statements. Specifically, they address her claims about what Jesus did or didn’t say regarding abortion and homosexuality, her selective biblical interpretations, and her broader influence on American evangelical and MAGA culture.
The episode centers around a video clip of Stuckey responding to Texas politician James Talarico’s comments on faith, politics, and scripture. Tim and April unravel the historical, theological, and logical inconsistencies in Stuckey’s rhetoric and use this as a case study for understanding broader trends in Christian nationalism and right-wing Christian media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Allie Beth Stuckey Facing Criticism from Her Own Base

• Tim’s Observation: Allie is "crashing out" and facing pushback even from her conservative followers because of repeated missteps (e.g., misinformation about high-profile incidents, mischaracterizing public figures like Bad Bunny) ([01:04]).
• Quote: “Even her own base ... are losing hope and disagreeing with her more and more.” — Tim ([01:31])
• April notes: The criticism isn't from progressives, but from self-identified conservatives and Trump supporters who are frustrated at her "overplaying her hand" ([02:42]).

2. MAGA Christian Inconsistencies: Super Bowl & Cultural Outrage

• Hosts discuss hypocrisy in right-wing outrage over the Super Bowl halftime performers, contrasting criticism of Bad Bunny (a Puerto Rican American) versus praise for Kid Rock, despite his history and vulgar song lyrics ([03:20]).
• April: “I’m proud to say I never liked Kid Rock, even before he was MAGA.” ([04:22])
• Tim: “...Kid Rock is like not the epitome of God, faith, and family at all.” ([05:19])

3. Setting Up the Main Clip: Allie Beth Stuckey Responds to James Talarico

• Context: Talarico appeared on Ezra Klein’s podcast discussing the disproportionate focus in American Christianity on abortion and homosexuality—two issues he notes Christ never directly addressed ([06:29]).
• Clip Setup: Tim and April prepare to react to Stuckey’s rebuttal, pointing out that progressive Christians are frequently marginalized by MAGA culture ([05:37-06:43]).

4. Dissecting the Stuckey Reaction Clip

a. Stuckey’s Argument

• Stuckey asserts:
  • Because Jesus is God, “the entirety of scripture is also Jesus’s words, not just the red letters.”
  • Connects commandments against murder and “a man lying with another man” directly to current debates on abortion and homosexuality ([07:08], [15:56]).
  • Accuses Talarico of either biblical ignorance or deliberate deceit: “He doesn't know his Bible. Or he just trusts that you don't know your Bible, so he's lying to you.” — Stuckey ([08:05], [37:47])
• Tim and April Rebut:
  • April: “Abortion is not murder. The definition of murder is the unlawful, unjustified killing of a human being with malice aforethought or deliberate intent. ... [Conservatives] don’t apply 'Thou shalt not kill' when it comes to, you know, American imperialism or the death penalty.” ([08:15-09:10])
  • Stuckey and similar voices are “not pro-life holistically, just very anti-abortion” ([08:15]).

b. Historical Context and Manufactured Outrage

• Tim explains how the evangelical fixation on abortion and homosexuality is recent—primarily post-Jerry Falwell Sr.—and not an original feature of evangelical theology ([11:28-12:56]).
• Tim: “Abortion absolutely was a manufactured outrage... once they realized fighting against school integration was going out of vogue...” ([11:28])

c. Theological Problems with “Jesus Said the Bible” Argument

• April (16:05): “This is such an idiotic take. ... To say that Jesus wrote it is stupid.”
• Tim: “Any good scholar, even a conservative one, will tell you that we are going off of the best available evidence ... But we don’t know for certain. ... Ali’s logic falls apart if you just read the dang book.” ([18:23-22:18])
• Selective Proof-texting: Stuckey uses verses conveniently, ignoring contradictory or culturally distinct commands, e.g., not stoning adulterers or handling the Bible’s multiple marriage models ([22:08], [25:16]).

d. Biblical Passages & Abortion/Homosexuality

• Exegetical Nuance: Tim reads Exodus 21:22, explaining ancient Hebrew law treats fetal loss differently from the mother’s life, undermining the common “abortion is murder” prooftext ([23:58]).
• Jewish Law Perspective: April highlights how Jewish interpretations, which predate Christian ones, often require abortion if the mother’s life is at risk, and do not view abortion as murder ([24:30]).

5. The Problem with Biblical Literalism and Selectivity

• Prescriptive vs. Descriptive Laws: Tim and April mock the arbitrary evangelical distinctions between “moral” and “ceremonial” (e.g., shellfish, homosexuality) and how these were created post hoc to justify selectivity ([22:08-22:39]).
• Flattening Texts: Tim: “Once you flatten out the text and say the Bible’s inerrant, you’re actually treating the text with ultimate disrespect.” ([28:26])

6. Hypocrisy Around Divorce and Marriage Passages

• April: Points out how evangelical readings of Matthew 19 are used to condemn queer people, even though the passage’s context is divorce ([31:55-32:40]).
• Comparison of Church Practice: Many evangelicals ignore strict teachings on divorce while using the same verses to exclude LGBTQ Christians.
• Tim: “Again, by this standard, if you’re going to quote the Bible … Jesus is pretty clear. He ain’t talking about the gays. He’s talking about the heterosexuals who are divorcing for reasons other than adultery.” ([35:56])

7. On Stuckey’s Personality, Platform & Influence

• Tim’s Analysis:
  • Stuckey is prideful, stubborn, and refuses to admit when she’s wrong ([42:33-44:41]).
  • Much of her persistence is driven by audience approval and the pressures of maintaining her brand ([42:33]).
  • She “dirty deletes” posts after backlash rather than publicly apologizing ([44:56]).
• April: Notes how evangelical culture fosters pride, narcissism, and never admitting doubt ([45:07]).

8. The Heresy Game & “No True Christian”

• Conversation about ‘heresy’ labels: All sides play the “no true Christian” game, but Tim advocates for a broader view: “All of us are Christian. It just depends on what version you want to participate in.” ([47:20])

9. “Fruit” of Christian Nationalist Policies

• Tim: “Regardless of what she [Stuckey] thinks about herself … look at the fruit of their positions ... it’s rotten, it’s poison.” ([49:23])
• The test should be the human impact of conservative Christian policies, not just rhetorical consistency.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [08:15] April: “Abortion is not murder. ... They don’t apply 'thou shalt not kill' when it comes to, you know, American imperialism ... wartime, or the death penalty.”
• [16:05] April: “This is such an idiotic take. ... To say that Jesus wrote it is stupid.”
• [18:23] Tim: “Ali’s logic goes like this: The modern Protestant English Bible, every word of it, is the word of Jesus because the Bible is written by God, God is Jesus ... This is so illogical on so many levels.”
• [25:16] Tim: “To take the Bible seriously is to treat it as what it is: a very complicated collection of ancient texts ... It’s not univocal.”
• [32:40] April: “They misrepresent what Jesus actually said to condemn marginalized people while completely turning a blind eye to ... people [in their churches] that've been divorced and have remarried ... actively committing adultery.”
• [37:47] Allie Beth Stuckey (clip): “He [Talarico] doesn’t know his Bible or he just trusts that you don’t know your Bible, so he’s lying to you.”
• [44:56] Tim: “Ally is ... incredibly prideful, arrogant, and too proud to admit that they’re wrong and say I’m sorry on the air.”
• [48:42] April: “I just remember like being taught like, true Christians ... you see their joy, you see their love for people ... I gotta say, I don’t get those vibes from Ali.”
• [49:23] Tim: “Look at the fruit of their positions ... The fruit is evident. It’s rotten, it’s poison.”

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:27 — Introductions & setup
• 01:31 — Allie Beth Stuckey’s recent controversies, conservative backlash
• 05:37 — Framing for Stuckey vs. Talarico clip, progressive Christians marginalized
• 06:43–08:05 — Playing and discussing Stuckey’s reaction video
• 08:15 — April refutes “abortion is murder” logic
• 11:28 — History of evangelical engagement with abortion and homosexuality
• 16:05 — April questions the “Jesus wrote the whole Bible” claim
• 22:08 — Tim & April critique “prescriptive vs. descriptive” and prooftexting
• 23:58 — Exodus 21 and abortion in the Hebrew Bible
• 31:55–32:40 — Matthew 19, divorce, and LGBTQ exclusion
• 37:47 — Stuckey accuses Talarico of lying about scripture
• 42:33–44:56 — Analyzing Stuckey’s on-air persona and pattern of deflecting criticism
• 47:20 — The heresy label and the diversity within Christianity
• 49:23 — “Fruit” as the real test of beliefs and policy impact

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, candid, occasionally irreverent
• Strong mix of personal anecdote, scriptural and historical analysis, and cultural critique
• Focus on honesty, clarity, and “calling out” logical fallacies and inconsistencies
• Openly challenges the pride and certainty seen in right-wing Christian voices
• Encourages listeners to embrace nuance, humility, and a deeper engagement with scripture and community

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Takeaways

• The episode offers a sharp, informed deconstruction of Allie Beth Stuckey’s arguments, exposing both their logical and historical weaknesses.
• Tim and April encourage listeners to examine the human impact (“fruit”) of Christian political movements and to look beyond prooftexting, simplification, or selective literalism.
• The hosts challenge listeners to embrace a faith rooted in compassion, humility, and intellectual honesty rather than culture war talking points or exclusionary dogmas.

Episode ends with encouragements to the community, an invitation for feedback, and a reiteration of the show’s commitment to honest, inclusive faith conversations.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hi everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I'm April Ahjoy.

[B]

I am Tim Whitaker.

[A]

Happy Tuesday again. Sure, every Tuesday we're here.

[B]

Who knows what breaking news is currently happening on this Tuesday.

[A]

Oh, I know. Let's see. This is gonna air what, Tuesday the 17th. So I don't know what's happening that day.

[B]

No idea. Something ice related. We're a week before the State of the Union address which we will be live streaming on our YouTube channel, so. So you can tune in and watch it with April and I. But yeah, I mean, who knows what else is going to happen. I'm sure there's some new MAGA outrage about something that is, you know, silly and dumb.

[A]

Outrageous.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, welcome in friends for sure. Make sure to give this video a like subscribe to the channel. We go live every Thursday at 12 noon on YouTube and on Substack. And of course we release an episode noon Eastern. Thank you, April. And we release an episode every Tuesday. Today we're talking about our bff. Our maga bff. Cause why not? Because I do think, April, in all seriousness, that Ali Stucky is crashing out overall.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

I have a theory. My theory is that I think she has overplayed her hand and even her own base, many of them are losing hope and disagreeing with her more and more. And I have two examples of this. The first is watching her and Megan Basham and all of those right wing women's sphere influencers really try and get their audience to think that Alex Preddy wasn't just murdered in broad daylight. Right. I think that was one big misstep by them. And, and also I do think that the whole Bad Bunny thing was also a huge misstep because she's gotten quite a few comments. We've seen them on Reddit and stuff in her, in her posts of people saying, hey Ali, I'm a big supporter, but you trashing Bad Bunny or making it seem like he's not American when in reality he is an American. He, he's a, he's, he's Puerto Rican, which is an American citizen. It's a territory of America. I think a lot of people are pushing back on her against that. So I do think ultimately, while I don't know if it will really like make any dent in her follower count or in her overall viewership, I do think that she's gotten a lot of pushback for the first time in a very long time.

[A]

I agree. I saw some of those comments and, and these are not progressive comments. People that are like, I listen, I love Trump. I'm conservative.

[B]

Pro ice. Yep.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Well, because they kind of shot themselves on the foot too because they, they said that the Bad Bunny show was going to be like he was going to come out in a dress and wear waving like, you know, a pride flag and, and say like, they made it seem like it was just going to be like the ultimate villain for maga and it just wasn't that at all.

[B]

And on top of that, the Teemu halftime show, Turning Point USA's halftime show featured artists that have a pretty bad track record of like not promoting family value content. Right. I mean, even. Who is the guy who sang the song the drinking class? Right. I mean, there's a whole song about people who drink to get through work. And that's like his staple song. I'm like, that's not very evangelical. That's not very Christian. Of course, Kid Rock, who. Who dropped the amazing album titled balls in your mouth. I mean, how do you defend people?

[A]

Name of the album?

[B]

Yes, that's an actual name of. Of one of his albums. Yes, Kid Rock. I hate to even Google this because, because, because. Wait, is it an album? I'm sorry, I made a mistake. The album is called the poly fuse method and one of his songs is called balls in your mouth. I'm not going to read the lyrics. I will just say that they are some of the cringiest, most vulgar lyrics I ever could read. Just use your imagination, friends.

[A]

I'm proud to say that I never liked Kid Rock even before he was maga.

[B]

No, he was not even in his prime. I was like, I was not sneaking his cd. I was sneaking yellow card. I was even sneaking some but some hard metal. I was not sneaking romance. But I'm just saying, you know, like, it's hard. I think even people who are just kind of the average rank and file MAGA supporters who aren't in the weeds all the time, I think that, that, that they saw the halftime performance that Turning Point offered as like God, faith and country went, wait, Kid Rock is like not the epitome of those things at all. And so I don't know how you can say that Bad Bunny is an un American halftime show when he's actually an American citizen and that somehow he's godless as he's fe actual marriage ceremony. But Kid Rock is the epitome of God, faith and family. I I.

[A]

No, it doesn't make sense.

[C]

We.

[A]

I'm sure, you know, we've talked about the super bowl in our last show.

[B]

You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[A]

We don't need to belabor the points.

[B]

I'm sorry. I. I was. I was yapping about it.

[A]

I feel you. I feel you.

[C]

I feel you.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you.

[A]

But that. This is to lead up to the video that we're going to react to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, if. If there's one thing that MAGA doesn't like, it's progressive Christians. I mean, we might be some of the most persecuted by maga.

[A]

They really don't like us at all.

[B]

Hey, they really don't. They don't see us as real Christians. They don't think that we're, quote, unquote, biblical, which I guess in some ways we're not, which is fine. So, Ali, you know James Talarico, who I've had on the New Evangelicals podcast twice, great person running for, I think, Senate right now in Texas. He went on Ezra Klein's podcast to talk about his faith. And of course, Ali is gonna respond to it, right? Good old Ali Stuckey with no theological degree, is just gonna start responding to James Talarico as if, you know, he's an idiot and she's a pro. So I thought maybe we should go through this short clip here and just kind of see what she says to some of James's. James's points.

[A]

Yeah, let's do it.

[B]

All right. Let's just start, see how far we get. It's not a long clip. It's only a minute and a half. So should we play the whole thing first? People can hear the whole context. So we can go through it piece by piece?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Okay, let's do that.

[A]

I think that works.

[D]

The past 50 years in this country, the religious right, a political movement, convinced a lot of Christians in America that the two most important issues were abortion and homosexuality. Two issues that aren't really discussed in Scripture. It's remarkable to me that you have an entire political movement using Christianity to prioritize two issues that Jesus never talked about.

[C]

Jesus never talked about them. Well, Jesus is God, so the entirety of Scripture is also Jesus's words, not just the red letters. If you look at Exodus 20:13, very simple. You shall not murder. Abortion is murder. That means it is prohibited in the Big Ten. The Ten Commandments. Also, Leviticus 20:13 says that a man lying with another man is an abomination. And Then you go to the New Testament, Matthew 19:4 through 5. Jesus Himself says, have you not read that in the beginning he made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. Jesus right there goes all the way back to creation. To reiterate the creation reality of only male and female and the definition of marriage between one man and one woman. James Talarico. He doesn't know his Bible or he just trusts that you don't know your Bible, so he's lying to you.

[B]

Okay, that's. That is the take. Do you want to give any initial thoughts to that video, April? I'm just kind of curious to hear if you have any initial.

[A]

Initial thought thoughts. Is her saying, well, down shall not murder and abortion is murder. Like that is something they say all the time to promote being not really pro life. Because they're not pro life really holistically, but they're just very anti abortion. And I just want to say, like from a very definition of murder. Abortion is not murder. Okay, here's the definition of murder. The unlawful, unjustified killing of a human being with malice, a forethought, or deliberate intent.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Unlawful. Because here's the thing, they don't apply thou shall not kill when it comes to, you know, American imperialism and American bombs or wartime or the death penalty.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So it's not, it's not murder. Also, I guess some translations say thou shalt not murder. I've always just heard thou shall not kill. But regardless, it's just, it's just a stupid argument. Like, I understand having a moral conviction about abortion because I also had that for a long time and honestly still have a little bit of that as well.

[B]

Right. You want to seriously.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not out here just like screaming, woo, love abortion, because I don't think anybody is. Nobody likes to get an abortion. But like, that's their bread and butter. That's their one issue. And they totally misrepresent what abortion actually is and honestly what murder is because they don't actually care about thou shalt not kill. Because if they did, they would be for gun reform.

[B]

And also Ali wouldn't be celebrating our government sniping Venezuelans out of international waters with no due process and no actual evidence that they were. Were carrying drugs. And by the way, even if they were, that's still not justification to kill people to murder them. But for Ali, she said on her own Twitter that she could not express how much harder she voted for that policy because she actually shared a screenshot of that and that caption of I can't explain how hard I vote or how much I voted for this. So yes, and not to mention how.

[A]

She'S been defending ICE after they've killed people right after we watched them like on video.

[B]

We really. And I, I want to hammer this point home because I think this is like the fatal flaw with, with, with the MAGA religious right is that they obviously do not believe what they actually say. They believe it in certain ways that always tend to benefit them and they are never consistent on these issues. They let's go back and listen to this again. And I, I'm going to kind of pause a little bit more here and just kind of go through it piece by piece with you, April, because there are some really important points I think are worth highlighting.

[D]

The past 50 years in this country, the religious right, a political movement, convinced a lot of Christians in America that the two most important issues were abortion and homosexuality, two issues that aren't really discussed in Scripture. It's remark.

[B]

Okay, I want to just point out a couple things here. Number one, James is completely right. The religious right after Jerry Falwell absolutely became focus on two wedge issues, abortion and homosexuality. However, evangelicals prior to that did not have a very strong opinion on being anti abortion. In fact, the Southern Baptist Convention, the sbc, the denomination that was founded over the right to own other human beings in the 70s when Roe v. Wade was overturned or when Roe v. Wade was instated, said they essentially made a statement having a very modest pro choice position, saying that that essentially they support abortion in the case of it causing damage or physical or mental to the mother or if the fetus, you know, is unviable, which is a very, again, pro choice position to have. So abortion absolutely was a manufactured outrage. After Jerry Falwell and his ilk realized that fighting against school integration was going out of vogue, once they realized that they lost that battle, they shifted to another one. And frankly, if you want to give credit to anyone or any group for being pro life, give it to the Catholics. The Catholics were the ones who came out against abortion from the beginning because of their, you know, of their stance around conception etc. So James is completely correct on those two points. I also want to mention lastly, I'll give it back over to you that the Bible does not talk about abortion in any sense as we understand it, except for maybe, except for maybe Exodus. I think it's 2122, which I can read that passage in a minute. And as far as homosexuality goes, same thing how we. How what we're talking about in the context of loving, you know, consensual same sex relationships, overwhelmingly, I would argue pretty foreign to the ancient world and definitely foreign to the Bible in the sense of when Ali quotes some scriptures and we'll get into that in a second, it's not referring to what we're talking about. It's like asking, does the Bible have a policy on social media? Like, no, because social media wasn't a thing in the ancient world. Like there's. It's a totally different way of thinking about the world that we examine. So I just want to highlight first that James, as far as I can tell, is completely right on those two statements. Lifelock, how can I help?

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[A]

Yeah, and I've seen the argument too where they. Not necessarily Ally, but I'm sure she's made it too. But I've seen this argument where they say, well, Jesus wouldn't have had to speak on homosexuality because they. There were no gay people back then. And I'm like, I've literally heard that argument. Like, you don't think the Romans were gay?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Like what? Also to. To your point, this is according to Politico, if you want to read it, it's called the. The name of the article is the Religious Right and the Abortion Myth. The Southern Baptists in 1971 passed a resolution calling for the legalization of abortion, a a position that they reaffirmed in 1974, a year after Roe, and again in 1976. And the former Southern Baptist president, W. A. Criswell, who was also the pastor of First Baptist Church, he said short this. He praised the Supreme Court decision. And he said, I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person. And it has always therefore seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed. And Jerry Falwell did not Preach his first sermon against abortion until five years after the Supreme Court ruling on Roe v. Wade.

[B]

Exactly right. Exactly right. So James is completely correct here so far. Let's keep going.

[D]

Well, to me, that you have an entire political movement using Christianity to prioritize two issues that Jesus never talked about.

[C]

Jesus never talked about them. Well, Jesus is God. So the entirety of scripture is also Jesus's words.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. I wanted to stop here. Go ahead.

[A]

This is such an idiotic take.

[B]

It's the worst.

[A]

Like, I. I don't even know how to have a conversation with people that think every word of the Bible counts as Jesus's words. It. I. It's. It's. It's so stupid. I literally. Okay, this is where this logic goes. Okay. I once had a lady stitch me on TikTok. This is like OG TikTok, right? It was this conservative woman back when you were doing all these stitches back and forth.

[B]

And I don't remember the good old days. Life was simpler back then.

[A]

And I think she was replying to me. I replied to someone else that said, well, Jesus literally said all these words and I said, no, Jesus literally did not. Like, we have authors for who wrote these books. Like you could say inspired by God. But to say that Jesus wrote it is stupid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And she stitched me. And she's like, well, you know, if God created the universe and he's in charge of everything that we do, I would imagine she was a Calvinist. She was like that, really? And he's control everything that we say and do. So Jesus did say, say it. Basically saying that everything that anyone has ever said can be accredited to Jesus because he controls the world. Like, that's where this idiocy. The idiocy of this argument goes.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, there are. This is a really key point for us to focus on for a minute. I want to play that back one more time and kind of unpack her logic to show how illogical and frankly ignorant this really is. I'm gonna back up about a couple seconds here. So her claim is that, you know, oh, Jesus never talked about it. Okay, here we go.

[D]

Never talked about.

[C]

Jesus never talked about them. Well, Jesus is God. So the entirety of Scripture is also Jesus's words, not just the red letters. If you look at Exodus 20:13, very simple. You shall not murder. Abortion is murder. That means it is prohibited in the Big Ten. The Ten Commandments. Also, Leviticus 20:13 says that a man lying with another man is an abomination. And then you go to the new.

[B]

Okay, let's just. So Ali's logic goes like this. The modern Protestant English Bible, every word of it is the word of Jesus because the Bible is written by God. God is Jesus, therefore every word inside of it is Jesus. This is so illogical on so many levels. First off, let's just start from the front, from the very foundation. So the English Protestant Bible has been translated and edited and corrected, and different translations say different things. By the way, I'm not sure if most people know this. We have none of the original documents or pages of the Bible. Like, like, like the first drafts don't exist anywhere. We have copies of copies. Some copies disagree with other copies. And men, a lot of men made a lot of decisions all the way down the line that got us to the English Protestant Bible. So it's already a ridiculous claim to make it seem like, well, this book was essentially beamed down from heaven to our ears by God. That's. That's mistake number one. Mistake number two is that we don't. Gosh, we. Any, any good scholar, even a conservative one, will tell you that we are going off of the best available evidence we have that Jesus said the words that he said. But we actually don't. Certain, we don't know for certain. We just don't because we don't have original copies. If Ali believed this, though, if Ali believed what she was saying, she would also have to con. To. To reconcile. So let's go back to Leviticus, right? She talks about Leviticus, whatever it is. 20. I have it pulled up here. 20. Oh, where is it? Leviticus 20. It's 14 or 15, something like that. If you. Leviticus 20. 13. If you read up two sentences earlier, it says this verse 10. If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. Does Ali Suckie believe that Donald Trump should be put to death for having multiple affairs with multiple women? Does she believe that now, again, her own words, Every word in the Bible is the words of Jesus, right? So if Jesus commands that, why isn't all the advocating for it? She would then appeal to the New Testament. Well, Jesus, you know, he gave us a new law of loving our enemy. But suddenly she can rewrite the verse in Leviticus about stoning adulterers, but she won't rewrite the two verses down that talk about how being or laying with another man is an abomination. So she's selectively picking and choosing which parts of the Bible she's applying to American law. Okay, that is the bottom line. And I pushed her on this when I. When I debated her in Jubilee. I said to her, ally, the Bible says that God gave David eight wives. God said that. God said, I've given you. I think it's Saul or Solomon's wives. I would have given you more if you would have asked. Doesn't that kind of blow away the notion that. That the only biblical ethic is one man and one woman for life? But then she'll jump around to. Well, no, because Jesus. Jesus reaffirms my view of marriage in Matthew 7, or Paul does it, or Christ in the church. She'll always jump around to make things fit in ways that they just don't fit. And that is what is so frustrating about her. She says it with her full chest. Well, Jesus wrote the whole Bible that. Those are the words of Jesus. Okay. But only certain parts are. Are applied, you know, literally for her. That just so happened to benefit her worldview. It's so aggravating to watch it.

[A]

It's the whole prescriptive versus descriptive crap that they made up about the Old Testament. How they can say, oh, well, the homosexual, that's. That's prescriptive, that's prescribed. That means we follow that. But the stuff about shellfish, well, I like eating shrimp. So that was just descriptive. That was describing the times back then.

[B]

It is arbitrary. If anyone out there is listening, you've heard, You've heard this line. Prescriptive versus descriptive. The lines for that are arbitrary. People make those lines up.

[A]

They make them up.

[B]

Even you might have heard, oh, well, there's the moral, there's a ceremonial, and there's the like. There's one more set of laws. In the Old Testament, even those three categories were added after the Bible was created. Again, they were interpreted that way. They're not innate to the text. The last thing I'll say briefly is just talking about abortion. I think it's really worth pointing out here, Exodus 21:12 through. Wait, not 12, sorry. Seven through, I don't know, 10, 11. Wait, where's my. Where's my Bible? Here. I'm sorry, I'm all over the place. Exodus 21:22. When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined with the woman's husband demands paying as much as the judge determines. Verse 23. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for Burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. The idea here is that there's a separation with how the Torah in particular treats a fetus versus the life of the mother. There's a distinction in value there. Now, I want to be clear. I'm not arguing for us to take this version of or these passages and then apply it to American law. I'm just saying, by Ally's logic, by her own standards, even the Bible makes a separation between a fetus and a mother. And also Genesis 2, it says God breathed into man the breath of life. And a lot of Jewish people believe that life begins at first breath because of that passage. Right. So it's not all. My only point is that it's not nearly as binary as how Ali presents it. If you're going off of the Bible, it's just not hard stop. Plain and simple.

[A]

No, it is not. And Jewish law generally does not view abortion as murder anyway. And in fact, if a, if the mother's, if the pregnant woman's life is at risk, Jewish law and belief would almost require her to have an abortion to save the mother's life because they value the life of the mom. And I would just argue too what I like to say. Like, yes, I'm a Christian, I read the Bible, I believe in the Bible, but also the Hebrew Bible. The Old Testament was a Jewish text first. And I feel like I should defer to their interpretations of it because they owned it before my faith tradition co opted it 100%.

[B]

The Bible's. To take the Bible seriously is to treat it as for what it is. A very complicated collection of ancient texts that come from different parts in world history with different contexts are trying to say different things. And it's, it's not univocal. It's just not univocal. How could, how could Jesus in the Hebrew Bible command his people to commit mass genocide? And then in the New Testament say, love your enemy as yourself? That is blatant contradiction. So Ali's ideal, her rhetoric falls apart. If you just read the dang book, if you're reading the Bible, it will not be monolithic. It just won't be.

[A]

Not to mention Hebrew Bibles very eye for an eye. You kill this person, you deserve to die. Jesus says, love your enemies and turn the other cheek. So like, at a very basic level, saying Jesus said all of that. Now, now you, you have new problems because now you don't have a perfect God. You have a God who has blatantly contradicted what he has said.

[B]

Right? Right. And what happens when you, you know, if you're telling the story of Noah's Ark, when Noah is talking, is that really Jesus? Who's talking? Like. Like, what does this even mean? It's just. It's just. It's. It's a bunch of hot air. It sounds nice to tickling ears, right? It tickles those ears to make it sound. Oh, this sounds so fancy.

[A]

It.

[B]

It absolutely falls apart upon any kind of examination. One last point I'll make about this just to really drive home the point. And again, I asked Ali this on Jubilee. I said to her, you believe that Adam and Eve were the first ever humans to ever live, that we all descended from. Correct? Yes. Okay. If that's the case, and God set it up for one man and one woman for life in marriage, how does that math. Math? At some point, you're either having multiple partners or siblings are sleeping with other siblings. Like, it gets really gross really quick. And you're telling me that God set that up, but also demands lifelong monogamy.

[A]

That.

[B]

That doesn't make any sense. You're either. You're either missing the point of Genesis 1 and 2, right? Where it's not. Maybe it's not literal, it's actually symbolic, or you're just dealing with contradictions and you're okay with it. Gosh. This is why I deconstructed. I'm sure you, too, April. Like, once you start examining this stuff, it doesn't add up. It doesn't add up?

[A]

No, it doesn't. It really doesn't add up under scrutiny. Which is one reason why, though, people like Ali Beth Stuckey are trying so hard to try to make it make sense. It doesn't make sense. But there are a huge group of American evangelicals that don't really read the Bible for themselves. They take the word of people like Ali B. And they take the word of their pastors. And if their pastor is saying it, well, their pastor wouldn't lie. And, you know, you. You assume that the person teaching you about the Bible is a scholar or has done their due diligence and. And researching, and, well, if he says that this is what it means, then that's got to be what it means. But there's. The blatant contradictions in the. The Bible are, like, if you actually read it objectively, they. You. You can't just argue them away. They're there.

[B]

Yes. You can't. You can't argue that some of them even. Are even intentional. Like, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all telling very different accounts of Jesus. That's intentional. The author of Mark has a very different agenda than the author of Luke. But that's why I'm so obsessed with the Bible, because the deeper you go, the more kind of beautiful and wild it is. But once you flatten out the text and say the Bible's inerrant, you actually are. You're actually treating the text with ultimate disrespect. You're essentially taking a modernist worldview, applying it to an ancient collection of texts, and calling it truth. And that's just not the case. I also want to. I want to backtrack one thing I said. I made the point that Ali, like, doesn't have a degree in the Bible, and I stand by that. But also, I am careful with how I use that, because I don't have a degree in the Bible. But that's why I talk to scholars. That's why I talk to actual biblical scholars on the New Evangelicals podcast and try and give you guys sources. What frustrates me about Ally is how she says things that are clearly not true, and she positions herself as some kind of authority on the Bible to her audience when she has no such credentials to claim to be. So that's what's frustrating to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Shall we keep going a little bit?

[C]

Yeah. Testament, Matthew 19, 4, 5. Jesus Himself says, have you not read that?

[G]

In.

[C]

In the beginning, he made them male and female. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

[B]

Okay. This is a good example of very selective proof texting. First off, that passage is not dealing with what marriage is. It's dealing with divorce. That's number one. However, if you keep reading, you get to some really weird words about eunuchs. Okay. And I'm going to recommend a book here that I keep handy. This book here, it's called Marriage in the what do the Texts say? By a biblical scholar, Dr. Jennifer Byrd. She's been on this show many times, and she talks a lot about eunuchs and in the biblical world, how they can be perceived. And there's an argument to be made in scholarship that for some eunuchs, they were kind of seen as not fully male or fully female. They were kind of like an in between because some of them were castrated. Some of them were used to sleep with women because they couldn't get wives pregnant. There was all kinds of things. So when Jesus is talking about eunuchs, he's. He's obviously not appealing to hard gender binaries by quoting Genesis 1 or 2. Because he drops the. The eunuch line afterwards, talking about how he wishes all of us could be like eunuchs. But that's only for certain people who can stomach to be so essentially. And so again, even if Al just keeps reading, she will see a type of person that's referenced in the Bible that kind of bends gender norms for that time. That's, that's what kills me. Like, it's right there. Just keep reading. And again, to be clear, I'm not saying that's an argument necessarily for, you know, transgenderism or not. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying in the Bible, even they recognize that not all people fit neatly into these categories of male and female. So when Alvis says this is a new phenomena, they're transiting our kids. No, no, no. This, this, this reality of bending gender norms has been around since the beginning of time. It's not a new thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is that fair to say?

[A]

Yeah, no, it's fair to say. I also just want to point out too, the hypocrisy of the way they use Matthew 19. I mean, you mentioned it also, but they always bring Matthew 19 specifically to condemn queer people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When Jesus is actually condemning divorce.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Jesus says, I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality and marries another woman, commits adultery. And it's fascinating to me that they cannot accept gay people because they're, quote, unquote, living in sin, living a sinful lifestyle. But how many people go to their churches that've been divorced and have remarried and according to Jesus's own definition, are actively committing adultery? And I. Listen, I am not condemning divorce by any means.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Just pointing out that if they, they claim. They're the ones that claim to take the Bible literally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And seriously, they misrepresent what Jesus actually said to condemn marginalized people while completely turning a blind eye to the. I mean, I knew a ton of people that were divorced in the church. Like, it was. It also was always wild to me too. Like the bakers that wouldn't bake a cake for a gay wedding, but had no problem baking a cake for the second marriage of a Christian man who just left his wife because he fell in love with someone else?

[B]

Yeah. Yep.

[H]

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[G]

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[H]

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[C]

Experian.

[I]

Hey there. My name is Christian from the beautiful San Francisco Bay Area and I serve on the New Evangelicals Board as one of the people who helps foster a community through Zoom conversations, other online events outside of Facebook. And I'm super proud to be a donor and a supporter and a participant in the important conversations we're having as it feels like our faith in our country is being hijacked to become, well, in my opinion, less and less Christian, less and less like Jesus. So I love our TNE community. I also support Project Amplify because I love seeing. I love hearing other smart, helpful, hopeful, educated voices being elevated to show that there's a better way changing teachings of Jesus. I'm proud of the consistently kind, humanizing, respectful and yet red flag raising content that TNE produces.

[B]

By their own standard, trump is a serial, unrepentant adulterer. Pete Hegseth is a serial, unrepentant adulterer. Right. Most of the Fox News hosts that they love are serial, underpanted adulterers. Again, by this standard, if you're going to quote the Bible, if you're going to quote this passage, Jesus is pretty clear. He ain't talking about the gays. He's talking about the heterosexuals who are divorcing for reasons other than adultery. Right. And by the way, just so people can see, this is what I was talking about earlier. Verse 10, it says, the disciples said to him, if such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry. But he said to them, not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so. Who have been so from birth. And there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others. And there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can. And we do have some fringe examples in early church history of men castrating themselves because Christ says there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. But again, I was never going to quote that passage. You will never hear your pastor on Sunday morning in an evangelical church talk about eunuchs and what they actually are and how they're perceived in the ancient world, because that doesn't fit into the narrative and their culture war talking points. That's. That is what's aggravating to me. Like, they just.

[C]

They.

[B]

They treat the text with such disdain. They just do. I would argue they really don't like the Bible at all unless it serves your political agenda. Okay, last couple of sentences here.

[C]

Jesus right there goes all the way back to creation to reiterate the creation reality of only male and female and the definition of marriage between one man and one woman. James Talarico, he doesn't know his Bible or he just trusts that you don't know your Bible, so he's lying to you.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Hold on. Take that sentence you just said and put Ali Beth Stuckey there instead of James Dell.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the arrogance, the egotistical approach, the sense of superiority that James, who, by the way, is in school at Austin Theological Seminary, like, getting his degree in the Bible. Yeah, that dude doesn't know his Bible. But Alvy Stuckey, Ali Stuckey, who loves John MacArthur, that's the one that you got to trust here, who picks and got him. I'm saying the same thing over and over.

[A]

But also we shouldn't be basing our political policies on what the Bible says.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Like, like, I mean, obviously, I know we have to, we, we, you and I, have made it our mission to combat Christian nationalism. And so we have to use the Bible to do that because I think it's. Yeah, I agree, the kryptonite to Christian nationalism, but it is just frustrating. Like it shouldn't matter what the Bible says. Like the Bible is such an ancient text and like, yes, it's one thing for that to be, you know, your holy book, the something that you view sacred, something that you use to worship, to feel close to God, like that's great. But to say, well, this obscure verse in this 2000 year old book says that those two people can't be married, like, that's stupid. We wouldn't do that with any other book.

[B]

Right, right. We, we have to acknowledge that a lot of us who grew up in this world were taught to see the Bible as more than it is. The Bible is not a moral rule book. It is not the source of objective moral truth. It's just not, it's not that, that doesn't mean that people can't get their values from parts of the Bible. We, I think even for me, parts of the Bible inform my values of every human being made in the image of God. Right. And being worthy of dignity and respect. So certainly, I'm not saying it's wrong to get values out of that, but to say, because the Bible says, therefore everyone else must submit, especially around things that are restrictive in nature. Right. Things that prohibit my neighbor, who holds no such theological conviction to have to submit to Ali Stuckey's really terrible interpretation of the Bible is, first off, it's, it's unconstitutional. And America is not a theocracy. We are a secular democracy and people have the right to live in ways that you might not. Like. That's, that's how this works. That goes for me too. Allie has beliefs I don't like. I still believe in her right to hold those beliefs as long as she stops swinging her fist in other people's faces. Right. That, that's where the line has to be drawn. But yeah, I think you're totally right. So you're. Yeah, because we, we cover the Bible a lot, but we're not trying to make it seem like, well, if you interpret the Bible the right way, it should be the foundation for all law that's not what we're saying. We're just trying to point out the blatant hypocrisy of Christian nationalists, how even by their own standards of how they view the Bible, their logic falls apart and you have to ignore many parts of the Bible to come away with their particular worldview that just so happens to reflect the MAGA agenda. Wow, what a coincidence. Crazy.

[A]

I know. Sometimes I wonder about people like Ali if they actually believe what they're saying. Like, I know a lot of people do believe it and like you get so far in it that you. Because, I mean, I've. I've been in debates before when I was super conservative and Christian nationalist and I would be saying things that I believed, even though, like, as I was saying that, like, my brain was like, that doesn't make sense.

[H]

Sense.

[A]

But I still like, believed it. And I would convince myself, well, you know, it may not make sense to me, but I have a finite mind and it makes sense to God, you know. Yeah, but Ally, the, like, the anger in which she's coming out with like the. She's. She's crashing out online, crashing right now. And a lot of her own conservative followers, as we mentioned earlier, are starting to turn on her because even they, and they're conservative, are seeing that the stuff that she's laying out is just not real. It's not, it's not what's happening even, you know, with what she said about Alex Preddy and, and defending ICE and all of these things. So I don't. I mean, the thing with people like Allie is she has built a platform on holding all of these beliefs and has books to sell and like her whole. Her livelihood is based on her keeping these beliefs and. But what I don't understand is why she's doubling down so hard when even people in her own camp are realizing that what she's saying isn't true.

[B]

I don't know Allie personally, but she's been someone that I've gone back and forth with for a lot of years now and have met at least one time in person on Jubilee. And we talked a little bit behind the scenes. My best read of in particular Ali is a couple things. One, I do think that she believes what she says. I think that in her mind she thinks that she's logical and being biblical and just following God. I also think that like anyone who has a massive platform, when your whole livelihood and approval comes from a certain kind of worldview. Right. You're going to want to find the way to justify why that's right and why you should keep going. I also think that Ally is incredibly thick headed and incredibly stubborn. I think that's just one of her personality traits and that she will never, never back down, even publicly because she is too prideful. And one of the pieces of evidence I use for that is remember the horrific post that Trump shared that was incredibly racist of Michelle Obama and Barack Obama. Right. With like that image of them. Right. I'm not going to repeat it, but we all know what I'm talking about. Well, Ali at first tried to defend it and downplay it on her Instagram stories. She got such backlash. She deleted that post and put up a different one written by someone who essentially said, hey, yeah, those, those that that kind of imagery is bad, but then blamed Russell more and like conservative non maga evangelicals for virtue signaling. So even when she, I think is, is, is so under pressure to, because her take is so bad, instead of saying to her audience, hey guys, I made a mistake, I was wrong, I want to do better. She will dirty delete and then repost something that gives just enough acknowledgement of, okay, that thing wasn't ideal. But also it's still, it's still, you know, whoever else's fault. I mean, same thing with Alex Peretti. Remember she got so much flack over that and she's like, okay, multiple things can be true at the same time. You know, ICE is doing good work. I don't know exactly what happened to Alex. That was like, that was her best, right? That was her best attempt to show like good faith.

[A]

Maybe, maybe the DHS messaging wasn't helpful.

[B]

Right. It's like, no, they lied. Right. So Ally is, in my opinion, Ally, like many right wing commentators, are incredibly prideful, arrogant, and they are too proud to admit that they're wrong and actually say I'm sorry on the air.

[A]

Yeah, I do think that's how I read. I think that's a fair point. Because when you are in that world, first of all, it is like a safe haven for narcissists.

[I]

Yes.

[A]

Like just, just the belief system alone, only you are right and every other belief system is not only wrong, but is going to pay when they all die. Like they're all going to burn in hell for not having the same beliefs as us. Like that's by default just a narcissistic way to live. And you're taught, like, don't have doubts. You got to stand firm on your foundation no matter what the naysayers say. Like, because the naysayers, they're Just persecuting you because they don't understand, because they don't actually have access to God. And so you're kind of like taught how to never apologize.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

For being on the quote, unquote, right side or God side.

[B]

Especially to your enemies, the people that you think are the other. The people above ground, outside of that basement. You never compromise with them. You never admit that. I've seen Ali before on Twitter literally delete things that were factually inaccurate and never acknowledge them. I have a couple screenshots of things that she shared and she would delete them later because they were just blatantly not true. She'll never acknowledge that what she said wasn't true. She'll just delete it like nothing ever happened. That's about as far as you're going to get with that world because it's built on pride and arrogance and it's built on this really, this really toxic belief that somehow they have the secrets of, like, the divine that no one else has. It's a very Gnostic way of viewing the world. Their interpretation of the Bible is God's direct revelation to them. And no one else has that understanding unless you assimilate into their belief system. I mean, that. That's really ultimately what they believe to the point where Ally will tell you that. That Catholics probably aren't truly Christian. The. The tradition that precedes the Protestant Reformation. Right. Isn't really Christian, but her Protestant evangelical fundamentalist worldview definitely is. It's wild.

[A]

It's funny too. They demonize deconstruction, but Protestants are like the OG Deconstructors. They deconstructed Catholicism before it was cool.

[B]

I mean, the Catholic Church tried to literally kill Martin Luther over, you know, what they called heresy. And Ali has no problem saying no, Martin Luther was right. So it's.

[G]

So it's.

[B]

Theology is a very subjective art form. It's a conversation. And everyone is always pointing the heresy label, everyone else right. To some people, I'm a heretic. To us, we think Christian nationalists are heretics. Ali Stuckey thinks that Catholics are heretics. Like, we're all just playing the heretic game. And I just kind of. I think maybe a year ago, I kind of realized that I'm like, you know, I'm kind of out. I'm kind of out of doing this. Like, no true Christians, no Scots. No true Scots in the fallacy. Because the reality is that all of us are Christian. It just depends on what version you want to participate in. You could participate in the power hungry. You Know, erase my neighbors Christianity, that, that's, that's a thing that exists in human history. Or you can participate in the liberation, love my neighbor as myself, human flourishing Christianity ultimately. So which one do you want to pick? They're both.

[A]

I just remember like being taught to like, like true Christians, which I don't think there's a true Christian, but they would say true Christians, like you can tell when someone's really given their life to Jesus because the love of Christ will just kind of emulate them. Right. Like you see their joy, you see their love for people. Like everyone wants to be your friend because you're just so in tune with God.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I gotta say, I don't get those vibes from Ali. No, she comes across just angry.

[B]

Yes. I mean I don't get those vibes from anyone in the mega movie. I don't, I don't get them from Kid Rock who apparently has converted recently. I don't get it from Russell Brand, Tucker Carlson. Yeah.

[A]

And I gotta say too, there's nothing wrong with being angry. Maybe bitter is the better word because there's plenty of times where I'm angry, but I'm like angry about the idolizing of a man who is harming so many of my neighbors. Right. And I'm angry about the Epstein files and the COVID up of widespread abuse of children. Right. Like I feel like it's a righteous anger and maybe Allie thinks hers is a righteous anger, but. Well, I think everyone, I think is demeaning. Like she's punching down, she only ever punches down.

[B]

I think most people believe that they're the good guys, right. I think, I mean, you know, even Thanos thought he was the good guy balancing the universe even though he was committing mass genocide. So I don't think like a lot of people are like, you know what, I'm the bad guy and I love it. Some people are like that. But I think Ali and whoever else is in that world, they really see themselves as the ones who are like doing the good work. And I think that that's what makes it so treacherous is that you're actually not like the, like the fruit of what you're advocating for is, is harming real people. Five year old Liam suffered because of the policies that Ali voted for and defends every single day. Right. So regardless of what she thinks about herself, I always tell people, forget what she says or what they say. Look at the fruit of their positions, look at the fruit of their policies and the fruit is evident. It's rotten, it's Poison. And I think that's why so many people, even, you know, even our many non Christian friends, most non Christian friends, are like, appalled at what this regime is currently doing to our neighbors.

[A]

Yeah, it's exhausting.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

It is. Well, it's exhausting both being the ones trying to rationalize with the MAGA Christians. It's also exhausting to be them. I remember what it's like to constantly have to do those mental gymnastics to have to defend, defend, defend, no matter who. What my president did or, you know, like, because they do equate that with their faith, which is part of the Christian nationalism thing. But it is exhausting and being outraged.

[B]

At the most incidental things, like stupid. Like, they. They get so upset over things that are so petty and dumb and stupid. It's. It's wild. But, yeah, anyway, cool. Well, definitely, I. Hopefully this helps people, you know, understand how this world works. I. I thought that was a good clip. You and I were talking about it. I think that that was a good 90 second clip to respond to because it just kind of demonstrates the frankly, utter foolishness and ignorance of this quote unquote, biblical worldview that falls apart the second you examine it. And I think it's important for folks to see how this logic works because it's not really logical. It's kind of the opposite, to be honest, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Well, thanks for being here, y'.

[B]

All. Yeah, thank you so much for being here. Please be sure to leave a comment. We always read the comments. I always look at them. It really helps shape content for the show. So make sure you're commenting in the YouTube channel and give this video a like, subscribe to the channel if you're listening on podcast. Thank you so much. Make sure that you're following the show and please consider giving us a rating and review. It really helps. It can even help us hit the podcast charts, which is always a nice thing whenever we chart. And yeah, we'll see you guys on Thursday, live. As always. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April Ajoy.

[B]

See ya. See ya, Sam.