← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:01]
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- [00:30]
April
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I'm April.
- [00:52]
Tim Whitaker
I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [00:54]
April
Yay. And we. So we're starting this new thing. We announced it last week, but Thursdays we're still going to go live at noon as usual, but we're not going to go live on Mondays anymore. We're going to pre record these kind of deep dives on different topics and you know, maybe different beliefs of Christian nationalism or different players in Christian nationalism. What we're seeing today, we're going to try to do a little more educational, deep dive type stuff as two people who come from that world, but we're also going to bring in actually like data and statistics and expert definitions and all that stuff. And it's still a work in progress. We're figuring this out. So if you had feedback and you're like, I really hate this, let us know nicely, please.
- [01:39]
Tim Whitaker
Nicely. The key to that is nicely. Just be polite. But we will hear it. We will hear it.
- [01:45]
April
Yeah. So today we thought it would be good to just kind of go back and do a high level episode on what is Christian nationalism? Because more and more people are talking about it now. I still get a lot of comments when I talk about Christian nationalism. They're like, what? People asking what? What is it? And I think it's important to note before we get into this that there are a lot of different definitions for Christian nationalism depending on who you ask. And most people who are Christian nationalists today would not say that they are. They would say they're just being good Christians because of everything that they've been taught. But they are definitely perpetuating Christian nationalism in some way as like that. That's where I was. I was a Christian nationalist, but I didn't know it. I thought I was just being a good Christian. Love God, love people, exclusions apply and vote Republican.
- [02:39]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, I mean, and one of the reasons why we're starting this different approach on Mondays is because Christian nationalism is maybe arguably the largest reason behind everything we're seeing that's happening politically. You want to know why the government is ripping people off of the streets illegally, by the way, and either deporting them to El Salvador or whisking them away a thousand miles without a lawyer. Christian nationalism is the ideology behind it. You want to know why we're in this America first mantra, even though Trump has no idea what he's doing. Christian nationalism is behind it. So there's a lot going on. You want to know why there's so much anti trans hatred and why right wing pundits are so focused on trans women in sports. Christian nationalism is behind it. And so I think that a lot of people who are doing great work out there are covering the political side of this and, and what's going on, but they're not understanding the theology and this worldview that is Christian nationalism that really has been in the works now for a very, very, very long time and unfortunately is not new to the Christian tradition, but we're kind of witnessing the rise of it in our cultural moment. So we want to be, we want to come on weekly and do some deep dives on different angles of this to help you be better, better educated so you can better understand and spot Christian nationalism when it happens. And that's kind of the, the whole point. So this episode is just a big picture overview. There's a lot to get to. I'm going to hand it over to April to kind of get us kicked off. But buckle up, friends, because it's kind of complicated and we don't want to become fundamentalists all over again and make things binary. It's not good or bad, black or white. It's complicated. And our job in this episode, in this video is to help you better understand it.
- [04:20]
April
Yeah. Because the truth of the matter is we would not have a second Trump presidency without Christian nationalism 100%. So, so let's just get into it. What is Christian nationalism? So at a very small, like, basic level, it is a conflation of one's political ideology with their theological beliefs to the point where they become so intertwined that you do not see where one begins and the other ends. And it elevates that specific ideology to the detriment of others. It doesn't have any room at the table for other belief systems or worldviews. It's basically like our way is truth. It's very narrow minded, very fundamentalist, and it believes in elevating this specific belief system overall over all others.
- [05:08]
Guest
Yeah.
- [05:08]
April
On a Larger scale, specifically Christian nationalism in America, is the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation, that it should stay a Christian nation, and that Christians are called by God to save America, both the soul of America, like the country, and individual souls, like individual citizens. That there's a. There's a very big belief in hell and needing to have a salvation through a very specific belief in how one.
- [05:39]
Tim Whitaker
Does that and very specific process of how one obtains said salvation.
- [05:45]
April
Yes, right. Which is a very specific prayer. But then they also are like, yeah, they'll be like, all you have to do is say this prayer and then you're saved forever. But also vote Republican, right?
- [05:56]
Tim Whitaker
Yes. I mean, that's a good point, because in the world that you and I grew up in, it's a weird paradox of they'll tell you that you're saved by grace and there's nothing you could do to earn salvation, but then they tell you if you don't vote a certain way or have certain political views, you're probably never a true Christian to begin with. So you're probably hellbound. So it's a weird switcheroo that. That many of these, you know, spaces do to you. But it does have an outcome.
- [06:22]
Guest
Right.
- [06:22]
Tim Whitaker
Because I grew up, you know, I was homeschooled for nine years, grew up very conservative Christian. And at the time, it wasn't super explicit like it is now, but it was kind of understood like, you know who you're going to vote for? You're going to vote for the guy with the. With the R in front of his name, because that's what good Christians do. And that's a great example, I think, of what you're talking about, April, where it's like Christian nationalism has assumptions built in about how you see the world, how you see America, and how you see God working through America and how it's your job to make sure that happens at all costs.
- [06:55]
April
Yeah, I mean, I. When I was in high school, I made a MySpace group called I'm a Christian, Therefore I'm a Republican. So. So, like, the belief is there and. And people would say it all the time behind the scenes, and they're saying it more overtly today, for sure. I feel like when I was in it, it was a little more. People try to be a little more subtle about it, But. And I also want to be very clear, too, up front. One thing that right wing, usually Christian nationalists are doing today is basically anytime even a Democrat gets up and quotes a scripture or, you know, says something about, you know, their own Faith, they're like, see, that's Christian nationalism. And they're saying that Christian nationalism is this made up smear campaign by the left. So I want to be very clear that Christian nationalism, you can have your faith influence your political beliefs. That alone is not Christian nationalism. Going up and saying, here's a scripture that really inspires me and this is why I feel this way about a certain policy that itself is not Christian nationalism. What makes it Christian nationalism is when you say, this is what I believe and therefore you have to either do or not do this thing because what you're doing goes against my beliefs. It is the elevation of one ideology that harms a lot of other people, that harms marginalized groups. So again, it can get complicated because, you know, it's easy to paint a broad brush of like, well, we don't want, you know. And for the record, we totally believe in the separation of church and state that is not currently happening right now. So, you know, in a perfect world we would have complete separation of church and state. But one thing Tim and I have been talking about and a lot of, a lot of people actually, actually as we're seeing this really dangerous Christian nationalist fascist takeover that is happening in real time right now, is we have, we almost have to use Christianity to fight Christian nationalism. They're not going to listen to atheists or agnostics or another religion. And I agree that that is messed up and stupid. But what we have going for us is the teachings of Jesus pretty much are the antithesis of what Christian nationalists stand for. And I have seen that be like the one thing that can work if you get through it. Because a lot of these people that are in Christian nationalism, including myself, when I was in it, I really wanted to follow Jesus. And when people started pointing out like, well, how do you justify this? When Jesus said this, right? And that would eventually my shelf would break with like little cracks here and there that would move along.
- [09:49]
Tim Whitaker
So anyway, I mean, one easy way of thinking about it is that because, you know, you think about like the black Christian tradition, mlk, for example, right? He was completely motivated by his faith to fight for the civil rights movement and the well being of all of his neighbors, including the poor people's campaign. One way to think about it is that Christian nationalism, what makes it Christian nationalist. And there are definitely some identity markers that we're going to unpack so you can kind of spot it. But ultimately it leads to a more exclusive club where you're either in or you're out that doesn't mean that, that, that, that people of, of either Christian identity or other faiths have used their religion as a way to expand.
- [10:25]
Guest
Right.
- [10:25]
Tim Whitaker
As a way to be more inclusive. So, you know, we always say, April, that the Bible can be used for a tool, a tool of liberation or a weapon of oppression. And we can look through American history and see how it's been used in both ways. Christian nationalism usually wants to use the Bible as a tool to keep people underneath its thumb. That's not the same thing as being religious and using your religion to advocate for the common good for all of your neighbors. And so I, I agree with you. That's a really important distinction. There are plenty of Christians, even conservative ones, who are not Christian nationalists. And that's important to recognize. Even though right now in America, 80% of white evangelicals, that's our tradition, identify or have Christian nationalist ideals, there are still plenty of other white Christians that would, Would reject such a thing, including ourselves.
- [11:12]
April
Yes, agreed. So let's get into some basic tenets and core beliefs.
- [11:17]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [11:18]
April
Of Christian nationalism. So what we're seeing today, and I'm going to do a quick little shameless plug, but I have a book called Star Spangled Jesus, which is Star Spangled Jesus, about my journey of leaving Christian nationalism. And so the, these tenets are based on my. In this world, on what I believe are like the three main tenets. And obviously there's, there's more. And, and anyway, so American exceptionalism really fuels Christian nationalism in, In America because if you believe that God founded America and that God is good, then you have to view America as good. If God hasn't had his hand in all of America's history, America has to have always been the good guy. And if America was ever the bad guy, then that calls into question the goodness of God. So there is this almost like, defense mechanism put up to whitewash history and to always view America as good because it protects what you believe about God.
- [12:19]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, you might, you might kind of see that today when we're getting rid of certain books that talk about America's, you know, uglier side of our history and our complicity and doing terrible things. And when certain politicians or pundits say those books got to go away because they don't teach true American history, that's a good example of Christian nationalism in action.
- [12:39]
April
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Critical race theory. The war they had on that, the, the war they have on, you know, quote unquote, woke ideology. Really, they're just fighting against actual history. The real revisionist history is the whitewashed version that, that we were taught. Yes. So second tenet, Christian in Christian nationalism equals a very fundamentalist evangelical interpretation of Scripture. It does not encompass all of Christianity because there are multiple interpretations and ways to live out your Christian faith. I mean, just look, there's over 45,000 Christian denominations currently in the world. And so Christian in the Christian nationalism today in the United States is a very narrow fundamentalist evangelical. Now, that can include some LDS people, that can include some Catholic people.
- [13:35]
Tim Whitaker
LDS meaning Latter Day Saints.
- [13:37]
April
Yes, yes, Latter Day Saints. I don't think they. They go by Mormon anymore. That's what I've heard.
- [13:44]
Tim Whitaker
Apologies to that. To the Latter Day Saints.
- [13:47]
April
Yeah. So. So it can include, like, other theological beliefs. Because I think, Tim, you had mentioned to me before we started, too, that it's, it's really. It's less based in specific theological beliefs and more based in a political identity.
- [14:01]
Tim Whitaker
May I quote a source?
- [14:03]
April
You. You may.
- [14:04]
Tim Whitaker
Thank you. So this is from Bradley Onishi's book, Preparing for War. He's a scholar on Christian nationalism. I mean, this is a great book for people who want a deeper understanding. I'm going to read what he says here. He says, and this is really short in ideological terms, Christian nationalists believe that this country was built for and by Christians. Then he goes on to say that, you know, when you see things like Trump is my president and Jesus is my savior flags, they're really a signal of group identity, indicators of what group they belong to and what story they are living out, rather than an indicator of their personal religious practices. And this makes a lot of sense, right, because we've seen April a pretty, in one way, a very wide tent of different theological understandings, Catholics, evangelicals, et cetera, but animating and organizing around the same story that they all believe around America. God, the blessing of God on America, American exceptionalism. So it's not so much from what I. How I see it in my experience and in my reading, it's not so much specific theological tenets. You know, do you believe this about God or about how you get saved? It's more about, okay, do we all believe that we're a chosen country because God gave us a divine mandate to, you know, do A, B, C, D and E? Yes. Okay, you're in the club now. It doesn't matter what you think about Mary or, you know, or the Bible or biblical inerrancy. Those are kind of secondary. Underneath of this one more source I'll give just for evidence of this, you know, I go to Turning Point USA events often. And I've been to their pastor summit several times and they intentionally say that hey, we're here to major on the majors and minor on the minors. It's their way of saying, hey, theology is kind of secondary to these political ID ideologies and beliefs that we have around. America is a Christian nation. And we as the true Christians have an obligation in a mandate given to us by God to keep it that way. Of course, we'll parse out in future episodes some of the more nitty gritty differences in different, you know, Christian nationalist sex. Because there are those things. But that is the general overview from. From where, where I stand.
- [16:08]
April
Yeah. And then there are some people in this Christian nationalist world who would say their theology does matter and that you have to believe these things. And so that's why if they were to ever get full power, you know, which, knock on wood, we stop that from happening, there's going to be some infighting because you know who's going to win? The Protestants, the Catholics, the Calvinists. Like there's going to be some infighting because a lot of them do have a difference of theology. But where they agree is the more fundamentalist. I say evangelical because it's, it's, it is based on a wanting to have a salvation and what you do on earth is going to echo an eternity. Not to quote Gladiator, but like that's kind of the belief of like why they're doing it now is to go to heaven one day. But the fundamentalist core beliefs, less theological but just beliefs is, you know, strong gender roles, you know, male and female gender roles, white supremacy, women should stay home. Men, men lead, very patriarchal, lots of purity, culture invol and very anti queer. That is, that's kind of in white supremacy. Like those are kind of the fundamentals that. And you know, a lot of them may not even say that overtly, especially the more white supremacy part, but when you look at the actions and the policies that they support and the scriptures that they choose to use, it very much points to that.
- [17:33]
Tim Whitaker
So yeah, yes. And this is also why a lot of scholars call it white Christian nationalism because at the foundation of so much of this is the idea of whiteness and white supremacy. Now to your point, a lot of Christian nationalists who wouldn't even identify themselves as that would say no, I'm not racist. But again, just look at the policies being implemented by the current administration and who they are affecting or, or think about during Black Lives Matter where a lot of white Christians influenced by right Wing pundits landed when it came to George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery.
- [18:06]
Guest
Right.
- [18:06]
Tim Whitaker
There's a consistent pattern there, even if they themselves will not acknowledge that.
- [18:12]
April
Well, yeah, and I don't know what you were taught about racism, but I was taught it was a sin issue and an individual issue and that basically systemic racism does not exist. But there is this idea that as long as you could be nice to people of a different race, then you could not be racist.
- [18:28]
Tim Whitaker
Right. And also, MLK solved racism in the 60s. I was taught that, too. Like, he came along and boom, boom, everything's fixed.
- [18:35]
April
Like, solved forever.
- [18:36]
Tim Whitaker
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes, yes.
- [18:38]
April
So then the third tenet of Christianity, nationalism, and we are seeing this play out in real time, is the belief that we should legislate morality based on our belief of what morality is, on what we. On our interpretation of Scripture. There are certain sects that believe legislative morality is important because Jesus will not return to Earth until we've almost kind of made a heaven on earth sort of scenario based on a narrow interpretation of what that morality is looks like.
- [19:08]
Tim Whitaker
And that's. That's how you grew up, right? You grew up more with that belief of, like, we have to essentially usher in the reign of God onto Earth by doing certain things.
- [19:18]
April
Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, and it was. It was twofold. It was legislate morality because we believe that was what God wanted and that everybody needed to hear the gospel before Jesus could come back. But then also there was this belief. I literally have used this argument like. Like I'll use gay marriage for an example, that it would be better to ban gay marriage and make it illegal for gay people to marry because it would be better to lose their human rights on Earth and have a better chance of going to heaven because we wouldn't be giving them the option to sin.
- [19:51]
Tim Whitaker
Which is the exact same argument that slave owners used to justify slavery. They argued that, well, look, I mean, if we can save. I'm not going to use the word because it's so dehumanizing. Well, we'll just say if we can save, you know, the slave from themselves, even if they live in bondage on earth, in heaven, they'll be free. It's this. It's. It is interesting, April, seeing the same ideology echoed throughout history, just aimed at different peoples, but with the same outcome over and over again.
- [20:22]
Guest
Right.
- [20:22]
Tim Whitaker
Some people get the privilege of living on earth in comfort and luxury, and others, because God willed it, you know, have to live in bondage or under, you know, in ways that, hey, it's it's not what we want, but God says they have to. But don't worry. One day in heaven, they'll live free. It's wild to see it.
- [20:39]
April
Another great book specifically on the racism historical part of Christian nationalism in America. Jamar Tisby wrote the Color of Compromise. And I remember this. This stood out to me. It was so insightful. But that this Christian nationalist gospel believed that God could save an enslaved person's soul but could not break their chains.
- [21:00]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's really good.
- [21:04]
April
So, anyway, so some more core beliefs of Christian nationalism. I want to segue out of that.
- [21:12]
Tim Whitaker
No, you're good.
- [21:14]
April
So white supremacy we've talked about already. I also think it's important to note that the kkk, in order to be a member, you had to be a white Protestant.
- [21:23]
Tim Whitaker
Totally.
- [21:24]
April
It is a very Christian organization.
- [21:29]
Tim Whitaker
Look, there could be some people out there listening to this who grew up like how we did in our shock to hear that or don't believe it, but like it is the reality. The KKK was a Protestant organization. You had to be Protestant. They were incredibly anti immigrant. They were incredibly racist. The book Fever in the Heartland is, is a damning story and indictment of the kkk. And again, unfortunately, the echoes of that ideology is happening today. I think we also have, April, I'll add it here, that another telltale sign of, of Christian nationalism is strong anti immigrant sentiments.
- [22:01]
Guest
Right.
- [22:01]
Tim Whitaker
Strong xenophobic behavior. This is what Trump ran on. This is what Trump got elected on. And now as of today, there are people who have green card status, who have visas, who have asylum status, being whisked away by plainclothes police officers, their rights stripped from them in some cases. Even with the Supreme Court ordering for the Trump administration to return some of them home from El Salvador, they are still saying, no, we're not going to do that. This is Christian nationalism in action. Because ultimately, I'm not saying every Christian nationalist wants this, but on the spectrum of Christian nationalism, the. The end result is a more white nation that looks and talks and sounds like white people in whiteness. And that also means then getting rid of people who don't look, act, talk or believe like them. This is just one more step in that process. It's anti democratic, it's anti pluralism. And this is exactly what Christian nationalists want, especially your more hardliners like your William Wolves, your Al Mohlers, your Joel Webbins, Doug Wilson's. These people want this to happen. They are celebrating it.
- [23:12]
April
Yeah. I've actually got an excerpt here from the Cloran which was the KKK's, like, their little handbook that they mailed out to two members from 1920s. So here's just a few of the things that you had to answer yes to in order to be a member. Tell me if they sound familiar.
- [23:32]
Tim Whitaker
I'm ready.
- [23:33]
April
Things that we hear today.
- [23:34]
Tim Whitaker
What year is this? What year is this?
- [23:35]
April
This would have been in 1920. In the 1920s.
- [23:38]
Tim Whitaker
A hundred years ago.
- [23:39]
April
Yeah. Do you believe in the tenets of the Christian religion?
- [23:43]
Tim Whitaker
Okay.
- [23:44]
April
Do you esteem the United States of America and its institutions above any other government, civil, political, and ecclesiastical, in the whole world? Ecclesiastical. Will you, without mental reservation, take a solemn oath to defend, preserve, and enforce the same? Will you faithfully obey our Constitution and laws and conform willingly to our usages, requirements and regulations? Just. It's just. It's just very similar.
- [24:16]
Tim Whitaker
Acceptable. It's funny, that last one. Now I think we're watching the real.
- [24:23]
April
Reading from my book.
- [24:24]
Tim Whitaker
Oh, buy the book, friends. It's a great book. But I think now in 2025, we're seeing what they actually meant by that.
- [24:31]
Guest
Right.
- [24:31]
Tim Whitaker
Because again, once the Constitution is used in service to defend certain types of people, it no longer counts. Right. I mean, Trump, on day one, tried to literally end birthright citizenship. Why? Well, because people who aren't white might be. Might be having kids here, and that's gonna upset the balance of, you know, white people and their dominance. I mean, this is what it is, friends. This is just what it is. And Christian nationalism is the ideology that largely animates that, for sure.
- [25:00]
April
Well, yeah. And clearly our current administration, Trump and Republicans, don't care about laws when the Supreme Court just rules nine. Oh, right. Clarence Thomas said. Yeah, you should return that guy. If Clarence Thomas.
- [25:12]
Tim Whitaker
I know, I know.
- [25:13]
April
Is actually some kind of point of morality, and you're worse than that.
- [25:19]
Tim Whitaker
Well, and that's because for Christian nationalism, it's not. There's no. The only underlying principles behind it are power and control. So truth is subservient to power and control. Laws are subservient to power and control. So it's not about the principle of law and order. It's. It's only. It's only law and order when it's used in subservience to them. Maintaining power and control. Once you understand that the whole thing is about maintaining political and cultural power and control, the logic of Christian nationalism becomes completely apparent. Completely apparent. And it's really exposed for. For the extremism that it is.
- [25:57]
April
Yeah. And because there's such a quest for power, you See a lot of cognitive dissonance like we're going to be going through and some of these points that we're explaining and we've already explained. It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to hold a lot of these beliefs at the same time.
- [26:13]
Tim Whitaker
Yes. Yes, it absolutely does.
- [26:21]
Tom
My name is Tom. I live in the San Francisco Bay area and I donate to the new Evangelicals. The Pentecostal Christian fundamentalism of my childhood insisted that I could not be both gay and Christian. For over a year and a half, I participated in an ex gay live in program that tried to rid me of my gayness. I left the group as a gay man and rejected my Christianity. But in time, I could no more stop being Christian. Then I could stop being gay. The Jesus heart drew me back to Christian story and symbol. Embarrassingly, not until my mid-40s did the blatant obviousness of it all speak to my heart as if from a burning bush. I get to decide if I'm a follower of Jesus. No one else gets to decide that. For me. That realization was my true born again experience. The new evangelicals welcomes all seekers and they welcome questions. The fundamentalist idolatry of right belief and its arrogant adherence to a creed frozen in time eclipse the true Christian message. I support the new evangelicals because they understand that.
- [27:50]
April
So a few more core beliefs and then we'll get to a little bit of history. Christians are persecuted. That is a very core belief of Christian nationalists, not just worldwide, but in America. Yes, Christians are persecuted. That's why there's like, you know, Sean Foyt back in 2020 did worship protests because he thought COVID lockdowns were a sign of Christian persecution instead of, you know, communal health reasons. I believed I was. Christians were persecuted in America despite having never been persecuted.
- [28:22]
Tim Whitaker
I'm not kidding you. At the turning Point USA Pastor Summit from two years ago, a pastor got on the stage, this is when Joe Biden was still in power, and said that he's really concerned that at any moment the government will throw him in prison in America. This is. Look, you might out there listening, you might think that's ridiculous, but they really believe it. They really believe it. And it's a paradox because they also believe that Joe Biden is sleepy Joe and weak, empathetic, but he's also so powerful that he might throw them in prison at any given time. So again, all of these ideas are always used at any given time to maintain their status quo. So sometimes Joe Biden is weak and pathetic and he's Sleepy Joe. Other times, he's so powerful and the most radical president we ever had, and he's destroying the country and he's, he's taking everything and oh, my God, we have to stop it. Yeah, it's, it's always used in service to the narrative of, but hey, we can, we can save it, or oh, no, our rights are under attack. We have to protect ourselves. They're always used for those two reasons.
- [29:22]
April
Well, I think there's a couple of reasons why they push this narrative that Christians are persecuted. One, it's great for morale. It brings people together. You could say, like, look at all these people who hate us. Like, we've got to come together and stand strong and all these things. But also the Bible says, you know, Jesus says, like, the world will hate you, like it hated me. And if you're not being hated, then are you even being a good Christian? So they've almost conflated this idea of Christian persecution. It gives them this almost this justification to be bullies for God to stand on, quote, biblical truth. But really that's often a dog whistle for being anti immigrant and anti queer. And so you can say that the worst, like, nastiest things about queer people that turn around and say, oh, I just love the sinner and hate the sin, or I'm speaking truth in love, but really you're just being a bigot and you're being hateful. But as soon as they say all these things and it's harmful and they get pushback, they turn that pushback into a persecution narrative.
- [30:22]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly.
- [30:23]
April
Which is brilliant because they can never do no wrong. It's used as an escape goat to avoid all accountability.
- [30:32]
Tim Whitaker
That's exactly right. The second that other people get access to the same rights they do that they don't like because their God told them so they're now being persecuted.
- [30:39]
Guest
Right.
- [30:40]
Tim Whitaker
That, that's the level. Oh, other people can get married. And we don't agree with that because our God and how we interpret the Bible says, so we're under attack. No, you're absolutely not. But for them, because they're used to always being again, in power and control over and over again. Any, any hint that other people have the same access that we do to these rights is seen as a direct attack against them, which, again, it's important to know that, you know, and that's why Trump is so successful, because Trump is the ultimate person who makes everything. That's. That any pushback is seen as an attack for Trump, and then Trump will lie to maintain narratives that these people think are true. That's. That's the handshake that's going on here. And as we're gonna see as we go through the history, you know, there's a rhyme and reason to why Trump came power. Do you have any. Any other core beliefs that you want to add?
- [31:32]
April
Yeah, I was just gonna. One more thing. On the persecuted thing. When there's not actual Christian persecution, you kind of have to make up Christian persecution. And that's why you see outrage over Lady Gaga's performance at Coachella or Meryl Streep potentially voicing Aslan in the new Narnia movie. You know, they have to say that of, like, oh, my gosh, these people hate Christians. Christianity is under attack.
- [31:52]
Tim Whitaker
Yes.
- [31:52]
April
Yes. Yeah. The only other thing is that violence for God is okay. The ends justify the means. When you believe in a literal hell, you think, okay, we talked about this. Like, it's okay to take away these people's human rights because it's better for them in the long run. And the. The God of the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, was violent, and so that they use that as a justification. Well, we can be violent because we're called by God. And they've had a way of twisting the harm that they caused as some kind of holy quest.
- [32:23]
Tim Whitaker
January 6th is a great piece of evidence that demonstrates how violence can be justified in the name of the Christian God. When they feel like it's. It's. It's okay, right? Yeah, that's what this all happened. Before we get to the history, can I just point out one more important piece of this? I think that that's just really key. It's a little. It's a little. It's a little deep dive, but I just think it's important to highlight. Is that cool?
- [32:45]
April
Yeah.
- [32:46]
Tim Whitaker
Okay. I want to put up this picture. I actually pulled it up here. So this picture is actually a really good example of how it's not about theological beliefs more than it is about a certain ideology that you adhere to. I want to point out two or three people in this picture. I'm not sure if you could see my pointer here on the left here. You can see it. All right, cool. On the left here, this guy, his name is William Wolf. Okay. And this is his mentor, Al Mohler. William Wolf and Al Mohler come from the Southern Baptist Convention. They strongly believe. I mean, they would call it probably a main issue like, like, like, like a key issue of who's a real Christian or not. They believe that women should not be in pastoral leadership. At all. To give you guys an example of this, they actually helped kick out the largest church in the SBC because they ordained a woman pastor a few years ago.
- [33:41]
April
All right, Rick Warren's church.
- [33:42]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly. Rick Warren's church. William Wolf is fully on the patriarchal. Men lead, women follow, true Christians don' and women pastors, let alone a woman pastor herself, you know, like that. That's not a thing in his worldview. It is a major, fundamental issue for him. Well, if you notice, they're all these people are all praying over Trump. And this person here, this is Paula White. Paula White is not only a woman pastor, she is a prosperity gospel teacher, which completely, I mean, I cannot think of any more of an antithesis of what William Wolf and Al Mohler believe as what they would call is true biblical Christianity. Paula White embodies all of the things that they would say are not true Christian principles. She's a pastor. She teaches a theology that they would disagree with. She believes in speaking in tongues, yet. Yet they are in the same room with her, praying to the same God as she is over President Trump.
- [34:45]
April
And I think this picture, she's leading Trump's faith office.
- [34:49]
Tim Whitaker
Yes.
- [34:50]
April
So in this. In this room, she is leading people.
- [34:54]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly right. And so this is. I think this picture says it all. As far as Christian nationalist ideology goes, even people who would claim to have the most extreme, hardcore, no compromise beliefs about women in leadership, gifts of the spirit, they will put that aside and partner with a woman pastor who is technically in charge of them in the Oval Office to pray over Trump to get their Christian nationalist ideology pushed through society.
- [35:26]
Guest
Right.
- [35:27]
Tim Whitaker
And that's why I say it's not ultimately about having the right theological beliefs. It's about, do you believe this story that we believe of how God is moving through the world and specifically using America as an exceptional nation and how we, as the true Christians, have an obligation to preserve and protect that heritage. That's what this is ultimately about. And I think that picture just sums it up so perfectly.
- [35:53]
April
Well. Yeah. And I think they're currently, in this moment, willing to set aside some of those more secondary theological beliefs in their quest for power. Yeah, but that's going to come back to bite them down the road with, because they have not solved. They've not figured that out.
- [36:08]
Tim Whitaker
No. Right. I mean, if William Walter Wolf and Al Mohler, if they became, like, the Christian czars of America, you. You bet your ass that Paula White is gonna be, like, defrocked and, like, you know, kicked to the curb, like, sorry, you're not a true Christian.
- [36:22]
Guest
Right.
- [36:22]
Tim Whitaker
But they will play ball again in the quest for power and control and then they'll have their own internal civil wars later on. But right now they're all playing footsie because they have a bigger goal and that is maintain cultural prominence and dominance underneath. Underneath these conservative ideals.
- [36:38]
April
Yeah. And I want to say, too, Donald Trump's not a Christian nationalist. I don't believe he's even a Christian. I don't think he has any sort of theological belief whatsoever. He's literally just in it for power and catering to whatever group will give that to him. And he said enough Christiany things that Christian nationalists were like, this is our guy, this is our bulldog. He's going to go in there and get us what we want and give us power. Which is why, and we'll get to this later, why Donald Trump was such a wake up call for people like me and you and for, you know, thousands, lots of other people too, was. We were taught character mattered in a leader.
- [37:16]
Guest
Right.
- [37:17]
April
And that, that's been one of the more confusing things of this support of Donald Trump. Because, you know, good character is not something I would say Donald Trump possesses.
- [37:25]
Tim Whitaker
I mean, I'm no scholar of good character, but I would also agree with you on that. Yeah, exactly. Again, another example, Christian nationalism will use any tool to maintain power and control, even jettisoning their own sexual ethics and values in favor of someone who embodies the opposite of all those things. If that person will give them the power that they seek.
- [37:48]
April
Absolutely, yeah. All right, so let's get into a little bit of history. And again, everyone, this is a very high level. There are deep dives on this. Jesus and John Wayne. Kristen Dumas is a great one. The one Tim is reading out by Bradley Onishi.
- [38:02]
Tim Whitaker
Preparing for war. Absolutely. The violent ticket by force. Matthew Taylor. There's so many, so many great books.
- [38:08]
April
So we're just going to give you a very brief overview so you can trace back Christian nationalism as early as the 1400s with the doctrine of discovery that was issued by Pope Alexander VI that basically supported Spain's subjugation of the New World and gave this kind of mandate belief that any land that was inhabited by non Christians was fair game. And here's a quote from the Doctrine of Discovery. It said, the Christian religion be exalted and be everywhere increased and spread, that the health of souls be cared for and that the barbarous nations be over. Is it barbarous? Barbarous. Barbarous nations be overthrown and brought to the faith itself. So basically it's this belief that you can overthrow, quote, unquote, barbarians who don't believe in God, who are heathens in the name of Christianity and that God says it's okay. And that's kind of, that's kind of what we see a lot in the colonies when, with. With the, the genocide of what we did with two indigenous people there. There was this belief along among a lot of them, especially the Puritans, who believed that as long as, you know, we were spreading the gospel, that you could basically take someone else's land by force.
- [39:21]
Tim Whitaker
Yes, yes. It comes down to supremacy.
- [39:25]
Guest
Right?
- [39:25]
Tim Whitaker
We have the true faith. We have the one true God. We worship everything correctly, and therefore we have a right to conquer these people who are, you know, they're, they're primitive, they are savages, they are not as cultured as we are. It's all tied into colonization. It's tied into a lot of things. But we can see the beginning stages of what would become modern Christian nationalism starting there and just manifesting all throughout American history. And again, I'm. Now I'm going to condense a whole lot of things because there are some major players that we could do separate deep dives on, and frankly, we're planning on that because I really, I know you agree here, April. I really believe that we need people more than ever educated on what has been happening in white Christianity in America, especially over the past couple decades here. Because again, if you want to know, how did Trump happen? You have to understand in particular, white evangelicalism, I think, arguably, and then we can go from there. So there are a couple of key players that, that throughout the, the, the 20th century and 21st century that really rise to prominence that, that shape a lot of the theology that we're seeing now. There's a guy named RJ Rushduni who advocates for something called theonomy or dominionism. He comes out of the 1960s, prolific writer. I mean, tons and tons of books about what it would mean to institute God's law in replacement of American common law. He wants queer people stoned. He wants folks caught in adultery stone. These are things that he's really advocating for. He also believes in pulling your kids out of public schools because they are indoctrinationist, sorry, indoctrination, humanist centers. And so he advocates for homeschooling. This is where the modern Christian homeschooling movement starts to get some of its roots. Fun fact, by the way. April, I'm not sure if you know this, but homeschooling started, I think, by a communist who was like, modern public schools are oppressive to children, and we must liberate children out of these oppressive environments. That's how homeschooling started. And then over time, the conservative Christian movement kind of co opted the whole thing in favor of saying, hey, you know, we don't want our kids being indoctrinated by the world, but what do they mean by this? And this is where we get to the modern expressions of Christian nationalism. I'm going to breeze through some of this stuff because we're running out of time and again, we can do a deep dive on every one of these. But essentially things become real intense during segregation and integration. This is where white evangelicals in particular really show their true colors. There's actually another good book I recommend, I have it right here called the Bible Told Them so by J. Russell Hawkins. He's a historian. This book really details Southern evangelicals in South Carolina and how they were the. The staunchest group in America to fight for maintaining segregation based on their religious convictions. So again, it's not comfortable to talk about as a Christian, as someone who grew up evangelical. But a lot of the roots of the modern evangelical movement start in trying to maintain the separation of the races because black people are frankly, just inferior to white people. This is what gets people really motivated. So the question we have to ask is what gets evangelicals to really get politicized?
- [42:41]
Guest
Right?
- [42:41]
Tim Whitaker
Because Honestly, throughout the 20th century, the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s, evangelicals are not like how we think about them now in terms of, you know, we're going to vote, you know, for pro life and against queer people, and everything is woke. There's a trajectory here. And the way it starts is when Brown v. Board of Education was decided. This is when the Supreme Court said, look, the races must be integrated in society, including in public schools. And then, then they started enforcing integration because a lot of states were not going to. This is where someone you might have heard of named Bob Jones comes onto the scene. Bob Jones is a staunch evangelical fundamentalist. You can look up like they're called the five Fundamentals. It's things like biblical inerrancy that they believe very strict binary ways of thinking about the Christian faith and the Bible. And they claim that, that, that this informs a biblical worldview, if you ever heard that term before, or biblical Christianity. And Bob Jones actually has a sermon where he says that, look, frankly, integration is anti biblical. It's anti God. And people and Christians who would advocate for it are just liberal. They're just liberal Christians who don't understand the true word of God. And he has a whole sermon dedicated to maintaining segregation. So Bob Jones starts a college, a private college. And eventually, as the government starts enforcing integration, the IRS says to Bob Jones in the 70s, hey, look, dude, you are not allowing interracial dating on your campuses, and you have to allow that in order to maintain your tax exempt status. And Bob Jones says, that's a violation of my religious freedom. And essentially he sues the IRS up to the Supreme Court, and he's defeated, by the way. And, and, and he, he stayed that way until he passed away. In fact, Bob Jones University finally undid their interracial dating ban, I believe, in 2001. Just to give you all a legacy, or 2000.
- [44:37]
April
It was, it was the year 2000.
- [44:38]
Tim Whitaker
Okay, 2000. Thank you. So while that's happening, one more piece of the puzzle here. Then we'll get into kind of the modern times. Jerry Falwell starts realizing that he, he's not a fan of public schools, mixing the races, so to speak. So Jerry Falwell is the founder of Liberty University. The reason why he gets very politicized because he was not always political at all. In fact, in fact, he actually preached serm, saying it's not the Christian's job to get into politics. What changed his mind? Many people think it was abortion. That's not the case. It was integration. And he was one of the people really pushing the private school movement.
- [45:13]
Guest
Right.
- [45:14]
Tim Whitaker
So education is a big part of what animates Christian nationalism. Jerry Falwell eventually gets very political. He partners with someone named Paul Weirich. He's a conservative activist. Paul Weirich, by the way, is. Is quoted saying that we don't want more people to vote. We want less people to vote because it looks, it makes the outcomes better for us. And Jerry Falwell essentially starts what's called the Moral Majority. This idea of, hey, as true Christians with a biblical worldview, we have to fight back against the, the, the, the secular encroachment of, of, of, of liberalism and all these anti God things. You know, LGBTQ + rights, abortion, pornography, you know, secular music. This whole thing gets started and Jerry Falwell really launches into, into stardom with this. And he starts, like I said, Liberty University. This is really the beginning of the modern Christian nationalist movement. It starts as the Moral Majority. They center around abortion because it's a very popular talking point with their base. That's how abortion becomes the major wedge issue that it is today. And really, since the 1980s white evangelicals in particular since Reagan have been solidly in the tank for the Republican party. And over time, thanks to things like talk radio and the right wing media machine, right people developed talking points that merged right wing ideology with God and country and therefore a biblical worldview. April, you and I know that we have to do so many gymnastics. If you read the Bible about immigration, welcome the foreigner. You know what you did to the least of these, you did unto me. There are so many passages that would actually say we should be welcoming to the immigrant. So it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to actually say no. The Bible wants us to keep immigrants far away from, you know, far away from the country. But there's decades of, of, of talking points and punditry that have gotten us to this point in America where somehow the true Christian position, or people think it is anyway, is to be anti immigrant and all these other things attached to it.
- [47:19]
April
Yeah, I think it's important to note too that Jerry Falwell did not give his first sermon against abortion until five years after the Supreme Court ruled in Roe v. Wade. Yeah, so there's whole five years there where evangelicals didn't care about abortion. In fact, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention supported a woman's right to choose.
- [47:40]
Tim Whitaker
Yes, like Christianity. Christianity Today in the 60s did a whole piece on this. They had 25 academic biblical scholars tried to answer the question. And what they essentially said was we can't, we, we don't have any consensus except to say that it's complicated and that a woman should have the right to choose. So yes, you're exactly right. Abortion was not always this wedge topic. Also, I should say the term religious freedom starts getting developed throughout the 80s, 90s and early 2000s. This is the idea, right, of you hear all the time, we just want religious freedom. I want freedom of religion to practice my beliefs. That becomes the weapon with which is used to fight for at the Supreme Court in many times. Christian privilege, white Christian privilege, that no, our beliefs, our religious beliefs around these culture war topics should be privileged at the expense of our neighbors. So again, Bob Jones says the same thing. Oh, government, you're forcing me to integrate. You're forcing me to allow interracial dating that violates my religious liberty. And that's the logic that we see used over and over again, even to this day.
- [48:46]
April
Before we get to more modern Christian nationalism, we need to go back a couple decades because Billy Graham was actually very key in the initial startup of this more Christian nationalism. And to be fair, Billy Graham later on in his life, was vocally against a marriage between evangelicals and the GOP and said, that's a bad idea. But in the 1950s, he actually joined forces with Dwight Eisenhower, became a spiritual advisor. They, they kind of came together in order to fight, quote, godless communism in the Cold War. And this was something that I didn't learn until I read Jesus and John Wayne. But that the term under God in the Pledge of Allegiance was not there under God did not exist in the pledge until Congress voted it in in 1954. The National Prayer Breakfast also started in 1953 as part of Billy Graham's influence on Dwight Eisenhower. And In God We Trust did not become the Nation's motto until 1956 under the same administration. So there was this push to make America a Christian nation as a way to fight communism in the 1950s that kind of paved the way for Jerry Falwell and a few other players. I need to mention Phyllis Schlafly was really big in pushing women to organize around, quote, unquote, vamp family values in the 1970s. She was very much against feminism. She need, she believed that women needed to stay in the home despite her not doing that herself.
- [50:25]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [50:26]
April
But she kind of radicalized a lot of women who were stay at home moms to get out politically and to start voting because they were pushing this narrative that they wanted to draft women for wars. And that was kind of a huge talking point that they used of like, you don't want your daughters going to war, so you need to fight this godless feminism. And at the time, they were fighting the era. Yes. Which was on the docket. Yeah. Recently. I don't, I don't think it's still hasn't been passed.
- [50:57]
Tim Whitaker
Nope. And we should also mention that. Think about it. The same idea of what you just said with Phyllis Schlafly. You know, that's your Ali Sucky today. That's your Candace Owens today. It's the same ideas of these women telling other women, get married, be a stay at home mom, take care of your children while not doing that, and making a lot of money while doing it.
- [51:18]
Guest
Right.
- [51:19]
Tim Whitaker
So the grift is this. The grift continues to this day in these right wing spaces.
- [51:23]
April
Yeah. And in the same, around the same time, 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s, really, until like last few years, Pat Robertson started the Christian Broadcasting Network and the 700 Club and they kind of started to encourage viewers to start signing petitions. He created the Christian Coalition, which was kind of a way to, to get Christians to be political activists and gave them very specific things to do. He also ran for president in the 80s.
- [51:51]
Guest
Yep.
- [51:52]
April
But he lost to George Bush senior James Dobson, a Focus on the Family, another key player. They, his Pro Family Family Research Council ran political ads against Bill Clinton in the 1990s asking for him to resign. So, so very political, but also very Christian, very traditional gender roles, all that stuff. Still to this day, they are, they are still a player going on. And the 700 Club still exists as well.
- [52:23]
Tim Whitaker
Yes, exactly. So all these things are working together. It's a combination of a certain way of thinking about the Bible, a certain way of thinking about the God and the government and Christianity. And then you merge it with like this right wing ideology, Right. That's steeped in racism and this belief that again, like we, we can't be equal here.
- [52:43]
Guest
Right.
- [52:43]
Tim Whitaker
Or maybe we're equal, but, but we're separate. This is all in the background. And then the government starts mandating integration, which now these Christian fundamentalists say, hey, now you're violating my religious rights because I shouldn't, my kids should not be forced to go to public school next to a black kid. Right. And this sounds horrible, but it's absolutely true. This is the logic at the time. And that's what sets the stage for all of his other culture war issues. Especially think about like, like gay marriage.
- [53:11]
Guest
Right.
- [53:11]
Tim Whitaker
It's the same logic. I shouldn't have to live in a country where this is happening. This is an attack on religious freedom. No, it's not. It's not attack at all.
- [53:19]
April
It's not Christian persecution.
- [53:21]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly.
- [53:22]
April
It's the same play.
- [53:24]
Tim Whitaker
It's the same freaking play. They also. I want to play just this one clip here so people can really understand. This is how. Because you pointed this out earlier, April, Let me grab the clip here. Hold on. You pointed this out earlier with the view that, you know, God will judge, judge the country for the ills of society, largely around feminism, sexual liberation, et cetera.
- [53:49]
Guest
Right.
- [53:50]
Tim Whitaker
Well, when 911 happened, it's just important to see how people like Jerry Falwell, again, this is the person who founded the biggest Christian university at the time in America. A man who, by the way, I have his sermon here. He said, this is, this is Jerry Falwell talking about the Brown v. Board decision. He said, quote, if Chief Justice Warren and his associates had known God's word and had desired to do the Lord's will, I am quite confident that the 1954 decision would never have been made. This is what, this is what, this is. Who we're talking about here. This is who founded Liberty University, one of the biggest colleges to this day. So here's what he said when 911 happened. Listen to this. Hopefully my audio set up right. I was having some fun.
- [54:33]
April
This was on the 700 Club, being interviewed by Pat Robertson, where I used to work to show my Christian nationalist street cred.
- [54:42]
Tim Whitaker
Listen to this.
- [54:44]
F
What we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be minuscule if in fact. If in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America give us probably what we deserve. Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population. The aclu. The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. Oh, yeah, And I know I'll hear from them for this. But throwing God successfully, with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the school, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this, because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the aclu, people for the American way, all of them who tried to secularize America, I point the thing in their face and say, you helped this happen. I totally concur.
- [55:57]
Tim Whitaker
I totally concur.
- [55:59]
April
And to be fair, they both apologized after that clip.
- [56:04]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, but they believe it, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I think it's a really insightful look into how Christian nationalists view the world. Right. God has set things up a certain way. There's a certain order to creation, and usually it's God on top, their version of God, then the man, then the woman underneath of that, who's led by man and then the kids.
- [56:25]
Guest
Right.
- [56:25]
Tim Whitaker
And. And. And sexual order is really important. It's one man, one woman for life. Although, of course, their own people continually disprove that narrative. But I digress. They use that as a way to justify why gay marriage shouldn't be allowed. And then when calamity strikes, they blame it on God's judgment for those people.
- [56:44]
Guest
Right.
- [56:44]
Tim Whitaker
For the aclu, for the secularization of America and hear these sentiments today. It's the same playbook, just recycled over and over and over again, that we are under judgment because we have forgotten the way of God, which is all code. It's all code for straight White patriarchal heteronor, heteronormitivity that demands a certain structure to the world where they're on top and everyone else has to assimilate and be on the bottom.
- [57:15]
April
Yeah, well, and they've just kind of repackaged some of the frontline issues where when I was in it, it was gay marriage and now the focus is more on trans people and going hard against trans and gender identity and all that stuff.
- [57:30]
Tim Whitaker
So, yeah, yeah, I mean, here's the reality, right? We are getting close to time here and I do want to, at some point maybe, maybe we could do like a part two to this because we have to get into Paula White and who she is, Lance Wall, now the Seven Mountain Mandate, because that's just kind of the overview of, and to be clear, a very high level overview. We skipped over a lot of things, but we wanted you guys to come away with just the foundational. What exactly are we talking about when we say Christian nationalism? It's not just a theology or a set of theological beliefs, although that's certainly important. It's really an I. It's more of an ideology. And it also is more of a worldview that says we have the truth, we have the objective truth about how God has created the world and how God has ordered the world. And we have an obligation to make sure that we maintain that status quo or else we're going to be judged.
- [58:18]
Guest
Right.
- [58:19]
April
I think it's important to note too that this. They believe they're doing good. They believe that they're doing the right thing. Because when you believe that all good comes from God, and not just all good, but only from God, their, their interpretation of who God is, only from that God can you get any sort of good does good come from? And when you believe that, you almost put yourself in a position of, well, in order to make this country good, in order to bring good to all people, we have to enforce our beliefs because only our beliefs are good. And that, that is what makes this so challenging to stop is because you have a lot of people in this movement who believe they're being the good guys when they're actually harming so many different groups of people, so many different individuals. Their belief system is literally ripping families apart.
- [59:19]
Tim Whitaker
Yes.
- [59:19]
April
You know, we like you. You can see the harm if you're paying attention. And so not only do you have to convince them that what they're doing is harmful, but then a lot of times people can't accept that. Because when you've believed you've been doing good this whole Time because you want to do good, and then you come face to face with the reality that you've been the bad guy.
- [59:42]
Guest
Right.
- [59:43]
April
You either have to accept that and completely change, or you bury that and keep on with the status quo and say, well, that's just a lie of Satan or that's fake news, because that's the easier route than to admit that you've caused harm.
- [59:59]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, I mean, that's how you and I grew up. In different ways, but same ideas. And I think it's important to note that a lot of the one liners that we hear, you know, when it was black lives matter. Well, all lives matter. Well, they don't really mean that.
- [60:12]
Guest
Right.
- [60:12]
Tim Whitaker
Because today we have people being ripped away from their families illegally and that are trapped in prisons across the world, and there's no real outcry from those people who were crying, all lives matter. Right. It's not very pro family to rip away a father who's, whose child is autistic and to send him to an El Salvador, a prison in El Salvador, and to say, sorry, we can't bring him back. That's not pro family. So all of these lines that you hear out there, right, Pro family, biblical worldview, family values, all lives matter, they're really just pieces of propaganda used in service to maintain the status quo, where people like them are privileged and other folks who are not like them for whatever reason deemed necessary are worthy of the punishment that they have.
- [60:58]
Guest
Right.
- [60:59]
Tim Whitaker
They're criminals, they're gang members, they're. They're groomers, they're. They're DEI hires. There's always a line, there's always some kind of description to dehumanize the other fellow image bearer, to make what's happening to them justifiable, while people like, you know, the true Christians can't even think about a world where other religious identities have a seat at the table equally because that's seen as persecution. And that's just a really important piece to notice.
- [61:24]
April
Yeah. And it's one reason too. While we're seeing such a push to rebrand empathy as toxic and sinful, that is part of their need to still be the good guy. When you see, you know, progressive or leftists or evil feminists or whatever the case, having empathy and seemingly caring for human beings that, you know, you are not caring about.
- [61:50]
Guest
Right.
- [61:50]
April
But you're a good person. Well, their, their version of empathy is just toxic and actually harmful because I stand on God's truth. And so it's, it's literally those mental gymnastics that we were talking about because not only do they have to be right, but they have to, they have to convince themselves that they're doing good even though facts in their face show that they're actually causing a lot of harm.
- [62:15]
Tim Whitaker
Right. And this is exactly why, in my opinion, right wing fascism and Christian nationalism and evangelical fundamentalism all play so nicely together.
- [62:25]
Guest
Right.
- [62:26]
Tim Whitaker
Because as an evangelical fundamentalist, you're taught, no, no, no, ignore the science. The earth was created in six literal days because the Bible says so. No, that snake definitely did talk or the serpent. You're just not understanding what's going on here. You're already taught, especially when you grow up as a child in this, in this ideology, you're taught very early on to dismiss experts, to dismiss science, to dismiss data that would go against the narrative that you're given about how the world works. So that's a very classic ingredient to fascism into right wing ideology.
- [62:58]
Guest
Right.
- [62:58]
Tim Whitaker
That we have a lot of data. We know that, for example, April.
- [63:02]
Guest
Right.
- [63:02]
Tim Whitaker
That if we give people access to contraceptives, a livable wage and access to affordable health care, abortion rates plummet. But that goes against the narrative that, you know, oh, those things are bad. Those things are bad because sex outside of marriage is bad. So we can't acknowledge those things. And also affordable health care is communism and socialism. So instead we'll just say we have to outlaw all abortion everywhere because that's the only way to actually fix the problem.
- [63:26]
Guest
Right.
- [63:26]
Tim Whitaker
Because the narrative, the dogma, is more important than the data if it goes against our moral convictions or how we interpret the Bible.
- [63:36]
April
Yeah, yeah, no, you're totally right. So maybe, maybe next week we can do a deep dive and we'll, we'll talk about more modern Christian nationalism and who the key players are.
- [63:46]
Guest
Yep.
- [63:46]
April
Today.
- [63:47]
Guest
Yep.
- [63:47]
April
And give you some information on them.
- [63:50]
Tim Whitaker
Can I just give people very briefly just the percentage of the population of who makes up Christian nationalists? Just so you have some kind of headspace here. So I'm drawing on PRRI and their research. They're kind of the most, in my opinion, one of the most leading organizations tracking Christian nationalism. When they do their research, they break. They figure out who would have Christian nationalist sympathies or maybe be what they call as an adherent. They use five statements that people measure their agreements on. So here are the five statements. One, the US Government should declare America a Christian nation. Two, US Laws should be based on Christian values. Three, if the US Moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore. Four, being Christian is an important part of being truly American. Five. God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society. They then give people a score. Either a Christian nationalism adherent. These are Americans overwhelmingly either agree or completely agree with all five statements. A Christian nationalist sympathizer. These Americans agree with most statements in the scale, but they are less likely than adherence to completely agree Christian nationalist skeptics. These Americans disagree with most statements in the scale, but they are less likely than rejectors to completely disagree. And then Christian nationalism rejecters. These Americans completely disagree with all five statements in the scale. So here's how it breaks out. About 10% of the American population are Christian nationalist adherents and 20% are sympathizers. So about a third of the country is going to be somewhere on the Christian nationalist scale. 37% of Americans are skeptics and 30% are rejecters. Now and we'll discuss this in future episodes. What matters more than just the numbers though? Because you might say, oh, only a third of the country. That's not, that's not a big deal. That is true on a numerical level, but in terms of power and access to money and access to social media and access to information.
- [65:50]
April
Currently elected.
- [65:51]
Tim Whitaker
Who's currently elected? There is a complete disproportionality of who is represented in politics and in right wing media, et cetera, that we'll get into. But I did want to give you all just some kind of sociological data on first off, how they define Christian nationalism for their research and then who in the population broken up by percentage would agree, slightly disagree. I'm sorry, agree, kind of agree, slightly disagree, and then completely disagree and how that breaks out. So I think that's really important to know as we get ready to wrap up.
- [66:23]
April
Yeah, I, I agree. Thank you for those statistics. Those are very helpful.
- [66:27]
Tim Whitaker
You're welcome, friends. You're welcome. I appreciate everyone being here. Remember, we go live every Thursday at 12:00, right? 12:00, 12:00 noon Eastern. It's a great time. We cover what's going on in the news. If you like this video, please let us know in the comments. This is a new segment for us. We really want to give you guys some, some deep dives on Christian nationalism and who the players are. So we want to do more of this. But it only really matters if you guys like this and want more of it. So leave a comment below, make sure to sub to the channel. And thanks so much for listening. We appreciate it.
- [66:57]
April
Yeah, y'all have a great week.
- [66:59]
Tim Whitaker
See ya.