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#770: Elizabeth Gilbert — How to Set Strong Boundaries, Overcome Purpose Anxiety, and Find Your Deep Inner Voice - The Tim Ferriss Show | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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#770: Elizabeth Gilbert — How to Set Strong Boundaries, Overcome Purpose Anxiety, and Find Your Deep Inner Voice

The Tim Ferriss Show

Wed Sep 25 2024

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim Ferriss Show – Episode #770 with Elizabeth Gilbert

In episode #770 of The Tim Ferriss Show, Tim Ferriss sits down with renowned author Elizabeth Gilbert to delve deep into topics such as setting strong boundaries, overcoming purpose anxiety, and discovering one's deep inner voice. Released on September 25, 2024, this episode offers a rich tapestry of personal insights, practical advice, and philosophical musings that resonate with anyone seeking a more balanced and fulfilling life.

1. Introduction to Elizabeth Gilbert

Tim Ferriss opens the conversation by highlighting Elizabeth Gilbert’s illustrious career, mentioning her bestsellers like Big Magic and Eat, Pray, Love. He sets the stage for a profound discussion by referencing their previous conversation, indicating that today's dialogue will build upon foundational themes they've explored before.

2. "No Cherished Outcome" Philosophy ([07:59])

A central theme introduced by Gilbert is the concept of "No Cherished Outcome," inspired by a Celtic poem. She explains, “I bring an undefended heart to our meeting place. I will not negotiate by withholding. I have no cherished outcome” ([09:02]). This philosophy emphasizes approaching relationships and interactions without predefined expectations, fostering genuine connections free from disappointment.

Application in Relationships:

Friendships: Gilbert adeptly maintains this mindset, allowing friendships to flourish without imposing expectations. She admits, “I seem to be better at no cherished outcome in friendships than I am in romantic relationships” ([09:09]).
Romantic Relationships: Contrarily, she finds it challenging to uphold this principle romantically, often harboring hidden expectations that lead to resentment and disappointment.

3. Balancing Responsibility and Self-Compassion ([12:18])

Ferriss raises the issue of taking responsibility without self-flagellation, referencing a conversation with executive coach Jerry Colonna about the pitfalls of extreme ownership. Gilbert responds thoughtfully, acknowledging the difficulty in finding this balance: “It’s a very difficult thing to have a human incarnation. This is not an easy ride” ([14:56]).

4. Two Way Prayer and Letter Writing ([24:49])

Gilbert introduces a transformative practice she employs—Two Way Prayer, a concept rooted in Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. This involves writing letters from a place of unconditional love to oneself, shifting the internal dialogue from self-criticism to self-compassion. She shares her personal experience:

“I've had people telling me, like, you’re trying too hard and you do too much... But I think you're also right. Maybe it's an oxymoron, but maybe there's a better way.” ([29:38])

Benefits:

Helps mitigate depression by fostering a supportive inner voice.
Encourages self-acceptance and diminishes the need for external validation.

5. Setting Boundaries and Self-Friendliness ([45:14])

Boundaries emerge as a crucial tool for maintaining mental well-being. Gilbert discusses her strict boundary-setting practices, particularly with challenging individuals:

“There are certain people that I just can’t do it around them. It’s not friendly for me to be around people who are cruel” ([47:24]).

She emphasizes that not everyone is entitled to a place in one’s life, regardless of familial ties, underscoring the importance of self-stewardship and prioritizing personal peace over societal expectations.

6. Understanding Purpose Anxiety ([87:58])

Purpose anxiety, as defined by Gilbert, refers to the relentless pressure to discover and fulfill a unique life purpose amidst a sea of billions, fostering a perpetual sense of inadequacy and stress. She critiques the cultural narrative that one must leave a significant legacy, stating:

“I hardly know anyone who doesn't suffer from purpose anxiety” ([91:53]).

Gilbert contrasts this with the concept of living a life of presence, arguing that constant legacy-driven pursuits impede true fulfillment and connection with the present moment.

7. The Relaxed Woman: A Revolutionary Ideal ([59:47])

Challenging conventional accolades like “strong” and “resilient,” Gilbert envisions the “Relaxed Woman” as a revolutionary archetype. She identifies three pillars essential to this state:

Boundaries: Clearly defined limits protect personal well-being.
Priorities: Focusing on what truly matters, unapologetically saying “I don’t care” to less important matters ([64:08]).
Mysticism: Connecting with a deeper spiritual or inner voice to maintain relaxation amidst chaos.

“Boundaries, priorities, and mysticism. If I don’t have those three things, I’m super stressed” ([65:34]).

8. Embracing Mysticism and Uncertainty ([66:05])

Mysticism, for Gilbert, involves a harmonious relationship with a higher power or inner guidance that orchestrates life’s events. She reflects on the importance of:

Trusting that not every aspect of life is within personal control.
Embracing uncertainty to reduce anxiety and foster a serene mindset.

“Can I believe that some other thing is orchestrating this and my involvement might not be necessary in every single moment?” ([65:34]).

9. Project Selection and Focus ([71:04])

Gilbert shares her disciplined approach to managing creative projects, likening it to air traffic control where ideas enter one at a time. She avoids mid-project switches by thoroughly vetting ideas upfront and maintaining a track record of project completion. This strategy ensures sustained focus and prevents the fragmentation of creative energy.

“Stick with the one you came to the dance with” ([73:56]).

10. Letters from Love: Building a Community of Self-Love ([102:00])

Transitioning to modern communication, Gilbert speaks about her Substack newsletter, Letters from Love. This platform serves as a space for subscribers to engage in the practice of writing and sharing self-love letters, fostering a supportive community aimed at combating self-hatred and perfectionism.

Features:

Weekly letters from love, including contributions from special guests.
A community that encourages mutual support and collective healing.
Opportunities for subscribers to share their own letters, promoting interaction and connection.

“It's the kindest corner of the Internet, I truly think” ([107:50]).

11. Conclusion: Embracing a Life of Presence and Love

As the conversation winds down, both Ferriss and Gilbert emphasize the transformative power of shifting from a purpose-driven anxiety to a life centered on presence, boundaries, and self-love. Gilbert leaves listeners with a poignant message:

“Why not try it on, try it on like a pair of boots and take it for a walk” ([111:02]).

Tim Ferriss echoes this sentiment, encouraging listeners to adopt a kinder, more compassionate approach to themselves, inspired by the insights shared by Gilbert.

Notable Quotes with Attribution

Elizabeth Gilbert ([07:59]): “I have no cherished outcome.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([09:09]): “I seem to be better at no cherished outcome in friendships than I am in romantic relationships.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([14:56]): “It is a very difficult thing to have a human incarnation. This is not an easy ride.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([24:49]): “Two way prayer is essentially two-way prayer... love, but sometimes I call it God.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([45:14]): “Boundaries is what comes to mind. And some really hardcore ones.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([65:34]): “Boundaries, priorities, and mysticism. If I don’t have those three things, I’m super stressed.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([73:56]): “Stick with the one you came to the dance with.”
Elizabeth Gilbert ([102:00]): “It's the kindest corner of the Internet, I truly think.”

Key Takeaways

Setting No Expectations: Approaching relationships without fixed outcomes fosters authentic connections and reduces disappointment.
Self-Compassion Practices: Engaging in practices like two way prayer and writing letters from love can significantly mitigate self-hatred and depression.
Importance of Boundaries: Clearly defined personal boundaries are essential for maintaining mental health and well-being.
Combating Purpose Anxiety: Shifting focus from legacy-driven goals to living in the present can alleviate the pervasive anxiety associated with finding one’s unique purpose.
Community of Self-Love: Creating and participating in supportive communities, such as Gilbert’s Letters from Love, can empower individuals to embrace self-compassion and authentic living.

This episode with Elizabeth Gilbert offers profound insights into navigating the complexities of modern life with grace, self-love, and intentionality. Listeners are encouraged to adopt these practices to cultivate a more relaxed, fulfilling, and purpose-driven existence.

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Transcript

Tim Ferriss (0:00)

Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show, where it is my job to interview people from all different disciplines, all different walks of life, to tease out the habits, routines, thoughts, lessons learned, and so on that you can apply to your own lives. My guest today, one of my favorites, Elizabeth Gilbert. She is the number one New York Times bestselling author of Big Magic and Eat, Pray, Love, as well as several other international bestsellers. She has been a finalist for the National Book Award, the National Book Critics Circle Award, and the PEN Hemingway Award. Her latest novel, city of Girls, was named an instant New York Times bestseller. A rollicking, sexy tale of the New York City theater world during the 1940s. You can go to Elizabeth gilbert.substack.com to subscribe to Letters from Love with Elizabeth Gilbert, her newsletter, which has more than 120,000 subscribers. You can find her on Instagram. Elizabeth Gilbert, writer But first, a few quick words from our lovely podcast sponsors who make products and services that I use every day or every week. I personally vet everything, and that means that probably less than 20% of the podcast sponsors who wish to sponsor the show end up sponsoring. But I'm fine with that. And here are the few that made the cut. If you ever use public wifi, say at a hotel or a coffee shop, which is where I often work, I'm doing it right now. And as many of you, my listeners, do, you're likely sending data over an open network, meaning there's no encryption at all. A great way to ensure that all of your data are encrypted and can't be easily read by hackers or captured by websites is to use this episode's sponsor, ExpressVPN. It is so simple. It is one click. It is the easiest thing in the world. I use it overseas, I use it in airports. I use it everywhere. 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Elizabeth Gilbert (17:31)

It's deepened, I think. One of the things I'm so lucky about, my friend Rob Bell once said to me, you're so lucky you didn't grow up with an enforced religion. And I'm so fortunate about that. I went to church, like, a nice little mellow New England church most Sundays as a kid, but I don't recall anybody talking about God that much. Like it was more of a social gathering. Like, I think New Englanders are a little bit reticent in terms of being too heavy on the message. You know, like, we sang songs and made crafts. And I don't remember it having very much to do with God, but I had a God awareness that was very powerful in me. And I remember going to the National Cathedral on a school trip when I was 10 in Washington, D.C. and, yeah, I grew up on a farm, so I grew up with very rustic architecture. And to go from. I mean, that cathedral did what cathedrals are meant to do to medieval peasants. To me, you know, like, I was. It put me into an awestruck state. And I remember coming home and wanting to replicate that state and trying to figure out if I could build a cathedral in my bedroom with, like, stuff from my dad's woodshed and my mom's sewing kit. Like, I really did try to. I'm like, how do you do. How do you make that? How do you make something that feels like that? And I think writing for me and my pursuit of writing and the arts was always driven by this sense of awe and wonder and mystery that something was moving, moving through me. That was probably my first direct communication with it. But for the last 20 years, I've had a practice nearly every single day of writing myself a letter every morning from unconditional love, which is kind of a God presence. It's a bit more specific, the unconditional love thing, because I think God is more than that. But that's where I also hear direction and guidance and humor. Yeah, I need a very funny God. I'm not going to do well with a God that's too serious. I need a God who thinks I'm funny. Like, who thinks I'm adorable and funny. Like, I need that. I can't be too beaten up by a higher power.

Elizabeth Gilbert (19:41)

It started in desperation when I was in my. Going through my first divorce, I was 30. And the well laid out planned life that I had created, very obediently, like, I had done just what my culture had told me to do. I got married at 24 and worked hard and bought a house and made a plan to have a family. And then instead of having a family, I had a nervous breakdown. Like, quite literally, everybody was moving in this one direction and my entire intellectual, spiritual and physical system collapsed, which I now know. I now see that as an act of God. I now see that there was sort of the dao, you know, that there was a force that was trying to communicate to me, this is not your path. I will kill you before I let you do this. I will kill you before I let you be a suburban housewife. I'm not allowing it. Like, I will make you, put you in so much physical pain that you're gonna have to notice that this is not the life for you. But I was also in so much shame of failure and letting people down. And like, we just bought this house. Like, I just felt like the biggest asshole in the world. Like, I don't know why I can't just get in line and do this thing that everybody's saying to do. Anyway, that marriage ended and then I threw myself into another relationship and that ended. And I was like, I don't know how to orchestrate my life at all. And nothing. Here I am 30 years old and nothing is what I had planned it to be five years ago. And I was in the deepest depression of my life. And I didn't have much of a spiritual life at that point. But I remember waking up one night in just shame and getting an instruction. I mean, that's the only way I can explain it. And I comfortable with that language because I often have that happen in my creative life where I'm told what to do. This is what you're going to focus on. Here's what you need to do now. And I was given this instruction and it came in as clearly as I'm talking to you and that said, get up, get a notebook, and write to yourself the words that you most wish that somebody would say to you. Because there was a great loneliness that I was feeling too, as well as the shame. And that letter began. You know what that letter said was, I've got you, I'm with you, I'm not going anywhere. I love you exactly the way you are. You can't fail at this. Like, you can't do this. Wrong. I don't need anything from you. This is a huge thing to hear. I don't need anything from talk about no cherished outcome. I don't need anything from you. You don't have to improve. You don't have to do life better. You don't have to win. You don't have to get out of this depression. You don't have to ever uplift your spirits. You could end up living in a box under a bridge in a garbage bag, spitting at people, and I would love you just as much as I do now. The love that I have for you cannot be lost because it's innate. It's yours. I have no requirements for it. And if you need to stay up all night crying, I'll be here with you. And if tomorrow you have a garbage day again because you've been up all night crying, I'll be there for that, too. I'll be here for every minute of it. Just ask me to come, and I'll be here with you. And the astonishing thing was that it, like, even talking about it now, I can feel the impact that it has on my nervous system to hear those words even in my own voice. And it was the first experience I'd ever had with unconditional love. I'd never heard anybody say, like, you don't need. I don't need you to be anything. You don't have to do better. Like, this is fine. This is great. You on the bathroom floor in a pile of tears and snot. It's great. It's great. That's fine. We love you just like that. And that's so nourishing because it's so the opposite of every message that I've ever heard. And so I started doing that practice, and it's taken me through. I've never. I've had difficult times in the last 20 years, but I've never gone as low again as I went at that time, because this is the net that catches me routinely before I can get that low. And that voice doesn't change.

Elizabeth Gilbert (28:29)

They're adorable, you know, and, and that's very hard for some people because the idea of turning toward yourself as though you are worthy of endearment can be really hard for especially perfectionists and the most driven among us. Like, you didn't earn. How did you earn sweet love? You didn't earn that. But this is a kind of love that doesn't have to be earned. So you start with that. And then, so the way I did it, the first night I did it was I literally just wrote what I wish somebody would say to me. And that's pretty straightforward as an instruction because you know what you wish somebody would say to you. You know how you want to be loved. You know how you want to be loved. It's right there like you know what you're dying for. We all know what we're dying for. Whether it's mother love or the missing father or the partner or the like somebody who's just like, I've got you. I see you, I see you. I love you. You're amazing to me. I see that you're suffering. I'm with you and you're suffering. And then you just, you just write that. But over time, what I think people will find, one of the biggest questions people have is like, well, it just feels like it's just me writing to me. It Feels super artificial. I don't feel like I'm hearing God's voice. I don't feel like I'm believing that there's this eternal source in the universe that's completely loving and unconditionally adores me. I just feel like I'm doing this exercise of just writing words to myself. And that doesn't feel spiritual and it doesn't feel rich and it doesn't feel real. And the question I have heard is, what's so bad about that? What if it is just you? What if all it is is just you writing to yourself from a kinder voice within you? Wouldn't that be worthy enough to be slightly life changing? Besides the terrorist who lives inside your head constantly telling you how you failed? Like, why not change the channel in your own head? And if that's all it is? And what if God is just the most loving voice inside your own head?

Elizabeth Gilbert (39:31)

Yeah, I mean, we always talk about self love, but that's kind of lofty. And I think you could just start by being a little friendlier. You know what I mean? Like just. How about the common courtesy you would show to a stranger on the subway? Like, let's start with that. Like just common human decency. So there's a story that I'm so moved and disturbed by it. So Sharon Salzberg. Do you know Sharon Salzberg, the meditation teacher? So she met the Dalai Lama, and she's written about this. She met the Dalai Lama on his first visit to the West. And she was in a group of people who were the first Americans, North Americans, to meet him. And it was at a time when nobody really knew who he was. He wasn't like the rock star who he became. He's this obscure Tibetan monk. And of course, it took place somewhere in California. And there were some academics in the room and some spiritual writers and teachers and meditators and this sort of elect group of people who were coming to meet him. And he was speaking through a translator because he didn't speak much English at the time. And somebody in the room asked him what Tibetan Buddhism and his teachings have to say about self hatred and how to combat self hatred. And don't you know, that man had to talk to his translator for like 15 minutes and kept asking for the question to be repeated. He didn't understand the question. He kept thinking that he was mishearing the question because he kept saying, wait, who is the enemy? Who's the person that you're having trouble with? And of course, being like Calvinistic Westerners in the room, raised on scarcity and you're never enoughness and original sin, everybody in the room was like, no, I'm the one I hate, you know? And he was like, this doesn't even make sense. Like what you're saying doesn't even make sense. And when he finally grasped not only that he understood that person's question and what they were talking about, but that everyone in the room shared this problem, he was so devastated. And he said, I used to think that I had a really good understanding of the workings of the human mind, but this is new to me, and this is very disturbing. Like, this is not okay. And essentially after that, he said, this is where we're going to start. And then that's basically what he became, his mission in the Western world. And it's interesting, I was talking about it with Sharon Salzberg the other day, and she was saying, in Buddhism, they say that one of the things that if you want to evolve is that you have to be less precious to yourself. You have to think of yourself as being less precious. But she said, in the west, we haven't even gotten to the point where we think we're precious yet to let go of it. First. She's like, I think we first have to find our preciousness, and then we can let go of it, and then we can evolve. But if we don't even know that any of Us. Anything about us is precious. That's already a problem. And when the Dalai Lama started teaching people how to love themselves, he would say, talk to yourself the way your mother would talk to you. And then he found out about some of our moms and he was like, okay, grandmother. Like, he was just, scratch that, scratch that. He was like, cousin, has anybody ever said a kind word to you? And it really spotlights this sort of terrible dysfunction that we all collectively have grown up in.

Elizabeth Gilbert (55:42)

Just take it off. Like, I just want to be free. I want to be free. And I never had the courage to do it. And I had a lot of reasons for why I couldn't do that as a woman. What if my head has a weird shape? What if. I mean, I'm a public figure. What if I'm out there with a bald head? I just. I always was like, when I get old, I'll do it. When I get older, I'll do it. And then I had this amazing awakening. And it was last year. I went to an event in New York, and there were a bunch of people there who were in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. And this is New York City, so it's, like, one of the most progressive places in the world. And I looked around the room, and all the men, all of the men had clipped, like, shaved or buzzed hair. And they all looked great. Like yours. Like, they all looked great. Thank you. Like, it was a bunch of, like, silver foxes. They all had lines in their faces. They looked fantastic. And all the women had long or longish versions of Some sort of complicated hair that I, you know, I know hair, so I know what it costs to have that hair. I know the keratin treatment you had to have for that hair to look silky. I know the dye job that you had to pay for. I know how much those highlights cost. I know that only 2% of women in the world are blonde and that 45% of the women in that room were blonde, including me. And I was like thinking about Dolly Parton's line where somebody said to her one time, do you ever get offended at dumb blonde jokes? And she said, no, because I know I ain't dumb and I know I ain't blonde. And it's like, I ain't blonde and I ain't dumb. But I'm spending a lot of money to. And I just had this really reckoning moment where I thought, why are we doing this? Why do I have to do this? And so many of the most amazing reckoning and liberation moments of my life have been these moments where I was like, oh, I don't have to buy into this anymore, just because I've been trained and taught and conditioned my entire life that I have to buy into this. I'm opting out, I'm out, I'm taking my toys and I'm leaving. And I thought, I can just get mad about the patriarchy and say that there's an unfair beauty standard for men and women, or I can just claim the entitlement that these men have and just get some buzzers at CVS and clip my own hair and like, never think about my hair again. And that's what I did.

Elizabeth Gilbert (60:01)

Well, first of all, I want to say that this is like why I think it would be revolutionary. So let me start with why. When I think of the words that are commonly used to describe the women who we all admire. Badass, fierce, tough, resilient, brave, strong, or in the brene brown realm, vulnerable, open hearted. You know, like, I aspire to be all of those things and I admire all those women who are all those things. But none of that feels revolutionary to me because women have always been all those things. Like, you have to be all those things as a woman in the world. You have to be resilient, you have to be strong, you have to be badass, you have to be fierce to survive as a woman. My ancestors were all that. Your ancestors were that or we wouldn't exist. So it's not a revolution. It's not a revolution. What would be a revolution would be a relaxed woman, because I never saw one growing up. I saw angry, tired women and I saw some relaxed men, but I saw angry, tired women. And I was on the pathway to becoming an angry, tired woman. And that's when my body revolted and was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing this. We're going in a completely different direction. So how do you not be an angry, tired woman? That's a really big question. And I think when I talk about this with groups of women, I always say, you know, I think we have to be careful because there's some part of us that thinks it would be irresponsible not to be angry, and it would be irresponsible not to be tired, because, I mean, just look at the world and how much it needs us, and on the personal level and on the political level, and how much there is to be angry about, and how many of us were violated in our bodies at various times. I mean, there's a million reasons to not be relaxed. And yet the question I have is if you were to step in, and this is a question I always ask to women. If you were to think of the biggest shit tornado going on in your life right now, whatever it is, the hardest thing you're doing, whether it's your activism or your family or your work or a medical issue or a bankruptcy or an addiction issue, like, whatever it is, or a problematic family member, and if you were to go into that same exact shit tornado tomorrow and not one external thing changed, but you were relaxed, would you be more or less effective at handling it? Martial artists know that the most relaxed person in the room wins the fight. You know, like, actors know this, artists know this. Like, this is where the flow happens. Athletes know this. And so I think for me, I've narrowed it down to three things that I need for me for my system to be relaxed. And it's boundaries, priorities, and mysticism. And if I don't have those three things, I'm super stressed. And I would say that the mysticism is the most important, but the boundaries protect that.

Elizabeth Gilbert (66:05)

Well, there's love. So we have to then go back to. You don't have to win this, right. You're not going to be graded. A thing I often hear in those prayers and meditations is we've got all the time in the world. And that's the exact opposite of the stress that I was raised under. The vice grip that I was raised under short amount of time. Extremely important to win. No errors can be allowed. You know, so, got all the time in the world. We got all the time in the universe. What's time? Plenty of time. It'll happen or it won't, like whatever the thing is. And that actually also happens to be true. That it will happen or it won't. Like, even we know that our best laid plan. Sometimes it's like, I guess this wasn't the thing that was supposed to happen. But then there's also where my body goes into a deep hum that I used to only be able to get from substances or love of another person settling me that deep, deep like, okay, everything is okay here. The thing that always works for me is a voice saying to me, you don't even know what you're looking at. You don't even know what you're looking at. And it just pierces my certainty because my certainty is one of the things that makes me so anxious. And this is a very convincing virtual reality that we live in. You know, it's very, very, very convincing. But the mystics and the physicists seem to agree that it might really not be what we see and what we're perceiving. I went to an event in Brooklyn a couple years ago and heard two Nobel prize winning physicists talk about the nature of reality. And it was so wonderful to hear this Nobel prize winning scientists say, the more I look at reality, the less I understand it. And all I can say after all these years of studying the nature of reality is that nothing is what it appears. And that what we used to think was natural law is at best, some very local ordinances. We really, we're like five Einsteins away from even having the right questions to ask to even know what we're looking at here. And just because billions and billions and billions of people have the same senses and look at the world and come to the same conclusion about what they're seeing and agree doesn't make it true. And that settles me. And it shouldn't. It's kind of like the rugs and the floor and the ground are being pulled out from under you completely. And that shouldn't be relaxing, but I find it deeply relaxing. Because then the stakes suddenly become a lot lower. It's like, all right, well, since I don't even know what this game is that I'm in, let me do what I can and let the rest of it go. And it doesn't mean quit the game. You're still in the virtual reality game. Play it nicely, but play it knowing that you don't even know what you're looking at.

Elizabeth Gilbert (71:37)

So part of the thing I've noticed that people tend to get stuck on sometimes is that they get this inspiration, right? So inspiration comes first, and inspiration is the breathing in of God, right? So like something even the most empirical, scientific, atheist people in the world, when they talk about where an idea came from, they say, an idea came to me. Like, they say that. Like, they don't even know they're saying that. But that's. They're reporting accurately what the feeling is, because that's what everyone I've ever met who's had an idea. It's the eureka moment. It's like, oh, I just heard, saw, felt an inspiration. And I know the difference between something that comes from me and something that comes to me. Talking about prepositions again, and I think most creative people do as well. Like, oh, this came to me, right? And then it can feel like an assignment, or it can feel like a challenge. And it's like, now I want to make this thing. But a place where I think people get sidetracked and distracted. It's very, very, very similar to meditation. Like meditation, spirituality and art have so much in common. So this may sound familiar to people who, like, maybe you've had this experience. You start working on this thing that was this inspiration. And a couple weeks, couple months into it, a couple days, another idea comes. And that idea seems more interesting than the one that you've already invested some time into. And then you're like, but I want to do this thing. This thing is fresh and exciting and this is the really, really cool thing, right? And then you go and do that one, and then another idea comes, and then it's like you're dealing with this melee. So oftentimes people will say, like, to me, I'm working on a book and I'm halfway through it, but I've got this other idea that I think is way better. And this book feels really stale and it doesn't have any life in it. And I always say, like, okay, well, I give you permission to quit working on that first project, but only if you have a proven track record of ever being able to finish a thing.

Elizabeth Gilbert (78:18)

I think part of it is that I enjoy it. I enjoy the work. And I never identified as a tormented artist. I've identified as a tormented person, but I've never identified as a tormented artist. Art has been. Creativity has been the place where torment drops away. So the question, of course, is why? And I think once again, I would probably have to say, I don't know. But I think I'm getting a big smile on my face as I'm thinking about this. But I'm thinking, like, why shouldn't we do the thing that is so pleasurable? Why shouldn't that be a clue as to the thing that you're supposed to be doing that you're on the right track? Because, you know, long before I became a meditator, I had so much trouble meditating for years, but I would start to write and hours would drop away and I would not be aware of time. So writing gave me the thing that meditation promised. But I could never have happen in meditation until very recently where, like, time stops or changes and I'm here but not here. So that's just so pleasurable. But the other thing is, like, sometimes I feel that it's a mandate. And I can't talk about the book that I've just finished. It's coming out next year. But I can say that it's the hardest thing I've ever written emotionally. And when I was doing my two way prayers every day in the morning during this, especially the really hard part of writing it. And I have a really loving higher power. Like, I have a higher power who's constantly letting me off the hook for lots of stuff that I do not have to do. You know, it's like, you do not have to be involved in this. Like, you don't have to be part of that chaos thing that's going on. Like, you don't have to be part of this family gathering. You don't have to rescue this person. You don't have to. Like, I get a lot of you don't have to's. You don't have to this. You don't have to do that throughout this entire process of this book. Because I was struggling every morning when I wrote it out on the page, that voice would say, I can see how hard this is for you, and I can see what this has cost, the toll that this is taking on you to tell this story. And I can see that you want to stop. Too bad.

Elizabeth Gilbert (80:30)

This isn't one of them. And sucks to suck. Get back to work. I'll see you on the page. You know, I know you're tired. I know you want to take a day off. You're not having a day off. You know, and I think the trust that has built up between me and that higher power over the decades, largely because of the things that I am let off the hook for, has made me think. It goes back to the original part of the conversation where I said, like, I'm loved beyond measure by a God who has given me control over practically nothing. The wisdom to know the difference is one that I cannot find. But I get instructions of like, this isn't yours. We don't need you in this story. We don't need you involved in this situation. We don't need you speaking up about this thing. We don't need you doing this. We need you doing this, however. Yeah. And the reason I don't want you up in all this other stuff that's going on is because I very much need you in this. And so I want you to bring your full attention to this. And if that changes, you'll be notified. You'll be notified of something. That happens a lot on the pages of Two Way Prayer. For me, I mean, I've gone through periods of time where I didn't have any creative ideas at all. Early pandemic, I was like, wow, this would be a great time to write, but I actually don't have anything that's ready to go. And I remember writing in Two Way Prayer and saying, should I be working on something right now? And instantly came the answer, when we've got something for you to do, you'll be notified. And I was like, well, what do I do until then? And they're like, hang out. Like, hang out. Be present to the world. It's amazing. Walk around, look at stuff. You don't have to be on duty at every moment, but when you have to be on duty, you really have to be on duty. And I think part of the aspiration that I have to both be a relaxed woman and teach and model that to other women is this is the opposite of what women have been taught. Wait, what if I'm not on duty all the time? What if I'm only on duty sometimes and I have to follow a deep inner voice that tells me when that is. And what that is and everything else, you all can take care of yourselves. And that's something that we as women are not taught that we can ever say, like, I'll do it, I'll do it.

Elizabeth Gilbert (83:31)

I still have trouble figuring that one out sometimes. So here I can tell you exactly when I can tell you exactly it. So one of the things that she does so cleverly in that course is that she keeps asking you the same question, like 90 different ways. So there are all these questions each week that you have to answer. And then there's the morning pages. So there are twists and turns on, like, if you could have three talents, what would they be? If there were are three places in the world that you could visit, what would they be? If there was something you wish you had studied, what would it be? She's coming at it, like from 20 different directions. And then there's this point that comes late in the process where she instructs you to go back and read everything that you've written and start looking at what keeps showing up. Because I think one of the mysterious and magical things and weird things about our brain is like, the secrets we can keep from ourselves, where it's like, I didn't even know that about me. So when I went back and read, Italian was on every page and I was like, apparently I really want to fucking learn to speak Italian. And I would not have said that that was like a massive priority of my life. But apparently my soul knew that it was an instruction because it was like, Italian. I kept seeing Italian and I was like, why Italian? You know, it's not useful unless you are in Italy. It's not like Spanish or it's spoken across the globe or why, why, why, why? And why is not a spiritual question and never brings a spiritual answer. So it's kind of useless. But I just went with it and I was like, okay. And my. One of my artist dates was to sign up for Italian classes without knowing why, just because it kept showing up on the page. So I did six months of Italian classes, like night school for divorced ladies at the Y. And I loved it so much. And I started watching movies in Italian and I started. I had no plan for anything I was going to do with it. And then I was like, well, wait, I want to use this Italian. Like, I want to go to Italy and speak this language. But I also have been studying meditation a lot lately and I want to go to India. I also want to go back. And then like out of that was porn8pray love. So it took me by surprise as much as anything. And maybe you've had that experience in your morning pages where it's like, I didn't even know that I can hide things so far from myself that I can't even find them.

Elizabeth Gilbert (88:09)

Well, I mean, the story that most of us were taught was some variation of. Each of you was born with one unique offering, special spark that is only yours and only you can deliver on that thing. It is your job. It is your job to find out what that thing is that only you can do. Meanwhile, there's what, almost 8 billion people on the planet. So. So already here's some pressure, because it's got to be something that nobody else can do, which is going to be unlikely because there's a lot of us. And you should find out what that is very young. And then you should become the master of that thing. And you should devote the 10,000 hours way before you're out of adolescence. You should already be pouring yourself into this purpose that you are here to serve. And you should become the very best at that thing. And then it's not enough to become the best at that thing, you have to monetize it. And it's not enough to monetize it. You also have to create opportunities for others and make sure that they're also being served by this purpose. And if all of this sounds exhausting, you are not off the hook even when you die, because you must leave a legacy and you must change the world. So no pressure, but that's it. That's it. You must change the world. And it's like, I think it's very male, I think it's very capitalistic, it's very self centered, it's very like, yeah, you only must do this thing that only you can do and the world must be altered. And like they must Know you are here. You must leave your mark on the world. And I think the world at this point is like, I wish maybe that you stopped leaving marks on me, like maybe we could use a little less of that. And I, I hardly know anyone who doesn't suffer from purpose anxiety. And I know people who are living lives that look from the outside like they have achieved tremendous purpose and it's a scarcity anxiety. So they're up at night wondering if they've done enough, have they done the right thing, have they left enough of a legacy? Is this where their energy should have gone? It's a theology that is going to leave you unsatisfied because there's no way to know that you have achieved it. And, and you and I both know people who like, are so admired and they're so stressed and they're so unsure about themselves and they feel like they've done it all wrong and they don't know whether they've. There's a never enoughness to it that feels a lot like capitalism. It's just how much. I'm thinking of JP Morgan testifying before Congress and them saying, like, how much money is enough, sir? And him saying, a little more. You know, it's the same with purpose. It's like, when will you know that you've made a big enough impact a little more? And what would be the opposite of a purpose driven life would be, I think, a life of presence. It's also focused entirely in the future constantly. And I don't think there's any way that you can live a relaxed or really truly rich or meaningful life if you're constantly thinking about your fucking legacy. But it's like, that's it. You're like, how much did I make? How much did I leave? How much did I impact? Meanwhile, the world is happening and you're in it and you're missing it.

Elizabeth Gilbert (95:26)

Just that moment. Not things like that, like, try to be kind to people, but that particular moment that they were like, however this thing works, it's essential that that guy not fall off his ladder. So we're going to need, in, like, sector 7, you know, block D on this date. We're going to need somebody to, you know, really be alert and notice that and to send them in, have the proper farm training. Put her on a farm, have her, like, grow up with a father who does Jack. How are we going to get her to la? Make her a writer, give her a career, have her. Have her read, like, every single other thing I was doing in my life was just killing time until the moment when I was needed. And maybe I'm not needed again after that. And I would challenge anybody to prove to me that that isn't true, because nobody can, because nobody knows what's going on and nobody even knows what they're looking at. So, yes, you could go a little too far into that and you could just smoke weed all day and be like, are we just a paperweight in God's desk? Or we're like, ask questions like that. But I think presence is the greatest gift that you can give to yourself and to the world. And I think that line that I so often hear in meditation and on the page when I do two a prayer of you'll be notified is the very opposite of a purpose driven life. Because a purpose driven life is some sense that I'm going to forge. I'm going to hack through this forest and make this trail. It's going to be named after me and this is what I'll be remembered for. And it's so self centered. And you'll be notified is a much humbler position to take, but it requires a great deal of listening and it requires also lately I've been doing these one day a week without my phone because I want more moments like that where I notice somebody on the ladder because I'm not on my phone and I'm super addicted to my phone. It's like, no, I'm not throwing shade against anyone who's addicted to their phone. We all are. You know, like an affront that I don't stare at my phone 90 million hours a day. I do, but like that's why I take Thursdays off from it is because I don't want to miss what's actually happening and I want to be present to the notification when it comes.

Elizabeth Gilbert (104:00)

Well, every week I will talk to you and I will talk about this process of learning how to write and speak to yourself toward yourself from a place of friendliness and love in order to combat this just awfulness virus of self hatred that we all seem to be so infected with. That comes also with perfectionism and lack and just bringing a different voice into the cacophony of voices in your head. And I'll read one of the letters that I've written to myself from Love and then there'll be a special guest. And the special guests are really the best part because it's everybody from like Act Like Toni Collette did one and Glennon Doyle did one and musicians and poets and artists and writers, but then also like random people who I meet and I meet them in my travels and I'm like, you are radiating so much light that I want to ask you why are you so lit? Like why are you so bright and shiny? And what is that? And what would love have to say to you if it could speak to you? And people who I meet and find inspiring. There was a young woman who I met in Denmark this year. I was on tour and and so she had read my book Big Magic. And because of that book, she was Japanese and she was an engineer and she worked on a construction site in Japan. But she'd always wanted to be an artist and she started making art again after she read Big Magic and then she took the leap and she quit her construction job in Japan and saved her money and moved to Denmark and is going to graphic design school. And her art is gorgeous. And I was like, hey, will you do a Letter from Love? Because obviously there's something moving through you that's really special. And I would love to hear what love has to say to you through you. And so it's like every week you'll get a special guest. I've had children do it. My friend's 11 year old son who was going through a really hard time being bullied at school, he wrote one and it was Beautiful. And Love said to him, not everybody has to like you. You don't have to be everybody's cup of tea. That was literally in this 11 year old kids. You don't have to be everybody's of tea. Like, we love you. He felt there was a we. It's really interesting. A lot of people, when they write the letters, the voice that comes to them operates as a we. Like it's some sort of consortium of like ancestors and spirits and guides. And it's like your team, like there's this feeling that people are getting where they're like, do I have a team? Like, I seem to have some sort of a team that wants to love me. So I've had developmentally disabled people do it and access love. There's this amazing artist named BJ who in my town in New Jersey, there's this arts collective for developmental disabled people. And he did a song about himself called I love BJ three different ways. That's like one of the greatest songs I've ever heard. That's basically just him talking about how lovable he is. So that's what you can expect. And then if you're a subscriber, you can post your own letters from Love each week. And what's happening in that community is that people are creating collectives and friendships with each other. They're having meetups in cities around the world and they're starting to become like, it's the kindest corner of the Internet, I truly think. And slowly I feel like it's dissolving and breaking down the walls of self hatred. That's what we're doing over there.

Elizabeth Gilbert (108:16)

You for giving me the chance to make the public complaints about your podcasting style. I've been crawling out of my skin. I'll send you a bunch of notes. No, I just want to say, can you imagine that something might love you? There's a quote that's often misattributed to Einstein. It wasn't Einstein. It was this 19th century philosopher named Frederick Myers. And his friend asked him if there was one thing that you want to know more than anything, if you could ask the Sphinx one question, what would it be? And Myers said, it would be this is the universe friendly? And it's often misattributed to Einstein saying that Einstein said that the most important question you could ask about your life was, is the universe friendly or not? He didn't, in fact say that, but he did answer the question in his own way, because he was examining that as well. And he said, subtle is the Lord, but malicious he is not. I hate to gender God, but anyway, I think it is a really interesting question to live in for your entire life. And it's a really interesting question that I ask myself when I'm in moments of great trial here on Earth School, which, as you know, I've already expressed my belief, is a very difficult curriculum. And it's like, like, is this a friendly universe or is this a malicious universe? And if it's malicious, then life is pointless suffering. And if it's friendly, the suffering might have a point. And if it's friendly, what might the point be? And where can I find that? And how do you want me to move through this? Now, assuming that it's friendly, how do you want me to move through this terrible looking thing? And so the question I think that I'm constantly bringing to people, especially when they say, I tried it. And it just feels really weird and uncomfortable to say kind things to myself. I'm like, yeah, because you've got decades of training of saying garbage things to yourself, and anytime you try to do something new, it's going to be hard and it's going to feel awkward and it's going to feel. It definitely doesn't feel normal because normal is your history's greatest garbage can. You are just a pile of worthless. You have never done enough. You'll never be enough. You should be ashamed of yourself. Who do you think you are? I mean, that's the normal dialogue that Annie Lamont calls Radio K fucked that's playing in most of our heads at all the times. And what about Our negative biased thinking is always trained toward worst possible outcome. But could it just as likely be that you are loved and lovable as despicable and somebody who should be ashamed of themselves? Why not? And why not try it on. Try it on like a pair of boots and take it for a walk and then do it again tomorrow and see what it does to your mind.

Tim Ferriss (111:17)

Yeah, I really, really appreciate the time and the thoughts and the wisdom and the reflections. And to everybody listening as always, we will have the show notes, links to everything including Liz's substack@elizabethgilbert.substack.com you'll be able to find all that@tim.blog podcast. And until next time, be just a little bit kinder than necessary. Not just to others, but to yourself. And as always, thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between 1 and a half and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. 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