The Tim Ferriss Show - Episode #821: My Two-Year Secret Project, COYOTE — The Strategies and Tactics for Building a Bestseller from Nothing with Elan Lee of Exploding Kittens

Release Date: August 5, 2025

In this insightful episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, Tim Ferriss sits down with Elan Lee, co-creator and CEO of Exploding Kittens, to delve deep into the creation and success of their latest card game, Coyote. Spanning over two years of meticulous development, their collaboration has culminated in Coyote becoming a national bestseller, now available in over 8,000 locations worldwide, including major retailers like Walmart and Target.

1. The Genesis of Coyote

[00:00 - 07:31]
Tim Ferriss begins by sharing his personal journey from being a fan of complex games like Dungeons & Dragons to seeking a more casual and engaging game experience. Inspired by the joy and connection games brought him as a child, Ferriss wanted to create a game that would foster similar experiences among adults and families.

Tim Ferriss [07:21]: "I made a game I did that's amazing. It took me 47 years, but that's huge."

2. Collaborating with Elan Lee

[07:31 - 10:54]
Elan Lee introduces himself, highlighting his extensive background in game design, including his tenure at Xbox and the successful launch of Exploding Kittens—a company that has sold over 60 million games in a decade. Their shared vision for creating a fun, accessible game set the foundation for their collaboration on Coyote.

Elan Lee [09:21]: "It's a very personal thing to me. And ultimately I want to give a gift."

3. Crafting the Perfect Game Design

[10:54 - 19:14]
Tim and Elan discuss the fundamental principles that guided the creation of Coyote:

• Simplicity: "Two minutes to learn, 15 minutes to play."
• Fun for All: Ensuring the game is enjoyable for both the creator and the players.
• Iterative Development: Emphasizing the importance of playtesting and refining based on feedback.

Elan Lee [12:23]: "Games should make the players entertaining."

4. The Playtesting Process

[19:14 - 35:57]
Elan elaborates on their unique approach to playtesting, which involves:

• Kiddie Test Pilots: Engaging families and friends to playtest the game in real-world settings.
• Video Feedback: Collecting video recordings of play sessions to identify areas for improvement.
• Iterative Refinement: Continuously tweaking game mechanics and instructions based on observed interactions.

Elan Lee [30:31]: "Look, this is so fun."

5. Prototyping with Simplicity

[35:57 - 44:39]
They recount the initial stages of prototyping Coyote using basic materials like blank cards and Sharpies. This hands-on approach allowed them to experiment rapidly and develop engaging game mechanics before investing in polished components.

Tim Ferriss [41:01]: "The first thing you've ever done that can include families and kids, it's not going to happen."

6. Mastering the Art of Pitching to Retailers

[44:39 - 62:00]
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the challenges and strategies involved in pitching Coyote to major retailers:

• Line Reviews: Critical meetings where retailers decide which games to stock for the upcoming year.
• Role of Agents: The necessity of having skilled sales agents who understand the retail landscape and can effectively represent the game.
• Presentation: Tim shares his experience of recording a passionate pitch video to compensate for scheduling conflicts, emphasizing the importance of conveying enthusiasm and the game’s value proposition.

Elan Lee [75:08]: "We have to make sure that whoever is representing you... is pitching it the right way."

7. Designing for Retail Success

[62:00 - 100:36]
Tim and Elan delve into the intricacies of game packaging and presentation:

• Box Design: Ensuring the game’s packaging is visually appealing and clearly communicates the game’s essence.
• Color Schemes: Aligning with retailer color themes to enhance shelf visibility.
• Instructions: Crafting clear, concise instructions that anticipate player questions and streamline the learning process.

Elan Lee [56:31]: "If a component does not need to be in the game, remove it from the game."

8. Overcoming Common Pitfalls

[100:36 - 153:22]
They address common mistakes game designers make, such as:

• Poor Packaging: Overly complicated or unattractive box designs that fail to capture attention.
• Unclear Instructions: Instructions that are either too verbose or vague, causing confusion during gameplay.
• Ignoring Feedback: Failing to iterate based on playtesting results can lead to stagnant and unenjoyable games.

Tim Ferriss [123:34]: "You've got nothing at risk here. It's just learning the process."

9. Innovative Features of Coyote

[153:22 - 173:49]
Coyote’s standout features include:

• Blank Cards: Encouraging players to customize and extend the game, fostering creativity and engagement.
• Modifiers: Introducing elements that balance gameplay, ensuring both novice and experienced players can enjoy the game.
• Dual Modes: Offering both cooperative and competitive gameplay to cater to different playstyles.

Elan Lee [59:38]: "We make a game where the players are playing the player."

10. Resources and Recommendations

[173:49 - 176:37]
Elan recommends essential resources for aspiring game designers:

• Books:
  • "A Theory of Fun" by Raph Koster
  • "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor
• Podcasts: "Fun Problems" – A game design-focused podcast.

Elan Lee [50:23]: "Don't Shoot the Dog... It is the best game design principle I have ever encountered."

11. Contest Announcement

[176:37 - End]
Tim announces an exciting opportunity for listeners to win a trip to a secret Los Angeles mansion alongside himself and Elan Lee. Participants can enter by:

1. Visiting Target or Walmart and taking a fun photo or video with a Coyote game.
2. If they own Coyote, recording themselves playing the game with friends or family.

Entries must be submitted by August 17th, with winners selected randomly to join the final event.

Tim Ferriss: "Tag us and you might just be celebrating with us in Hollywood this fall."

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive look into the complexities of game design, from initial concept to retail success. Ferriss and Lee provide invaluable insights into the iterative creative process, the importance of clear communication, and strategic pitching to retailers. Their journey with Coyote underscores the blend of passion, meticulous planning, and adaptability required to transform a simple idea into a beloved bestseller.

For aspiring game designers and enthusiasts, this conversation serves as both inspiration and a practical guide to navigating the multifaceted world of game creation and distribution.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Ferriss [07:21]: "I made a game I did that's amazing."
• Elan Lee [09:21]: "It's a very personal thing to me. And ultimately I want to give a gift."
• Elan Lee [12:23]: "Games should make the players entertaining."
• Elan Lee [30:31]: "Look, this is so fun."
• Tim Ferriss [41:01]: "The first thing you've ever done that can include families and kids, it's not going to happen."
• Elan Lee [56:31]: "If a component does not need to be in the game, remove it from the game."
• Elan Lee [75:08]: "We have to make sure that whoever is representing you... is pitching it the right way."
• Elan Lee [50:23]: "Don't Shoot the Dog... It is the best game design principle I have ever encountered."
• Tim Ferriss [123:34]: "You've got nothing at risk here. It's just learning the process."
• Elan Lee [59:38]: "We make a game where the players are playing the player."

Resources Mentioned:

• A Theory of Fun by Raph Koster
• Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor
• Podcast: Fun Problems
• Website: coyotegame.com
• YouTube Channel: Elan Lee

Contest Details:

• How to Enter:
  1. Visit Target or Walmart and take a photo/video with Coyote.
  2. If you own Coyote, record yourself playing with friends or family.
  3. Share on Instagram or TikTok, tagging @imferriss and @explodingkittens.
• Deadline: August 17th, 10 PM PST
• Prizes: Five winners receive round-trip airfare, a hotel night, and join Tim and Elan in LA.

Embarking on this two-year secret project, Coyote stands as a testament to what passion-driven collaboration can achieve. Whether you're a seasoned game designer or a curious enthusiast, the insights shared in this episode offer a roadmap to creating engaging, memorable games that resonate with players worldwide.