#831: Frank Miller, Comic Book Legend — Creative Process, The Dark Knight Returns, Sin City, 300, and Much More

Summary

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The Tim Ferriss Show – Detailed Episode Summary

Podcast: The Tim Ferriss Show
Host: Tim Ferriss
Episode: #831 – Frank Miller, Comic Book Legend — Creative Process, The Dark Knight Returns, Sin City, 300, and Much More
Date: October 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

Tim Ferriss sits down for a comprehensive conversation with Frank Miller, the legendary comic book writer and artist behind such works as Daredevil, The Dark Knight Returns, Sin City, and 300. The episode explores Miller’s creative process, career-defining breakthroughs, artistic philosophy, collaborations, and his views on storytelling, influences, and life lessons from both his successes and failures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Philosophies on Creativity & Excellence

• Devotion to Craft (02:42):
  • Miller recounts Aristotle’s definition of happiness: “Devotion of all of one’s energies along lines of excellence... it is a guiding principle to a creative life.” — Frank Miller [02:42]
  • He integrates this principle into his work approach and storytelling.

2. Tools & Techniques of the Trade

• Art Materials & Chaos in Process (03:02–09:23):
  • Miller details his traditional tools: Blackwing pencils, India ink, sable brushes, toothbrushes.
  • On Liquid Frisket: “It creates a very dramatic highlight... I like to use it with ink because it creates an element of chaos.” — Frank Miller [04:03]
  • The physicality and size of his art (often called "twice up") is seen as crucial to the kinetic energy of works like Sin City.
  • On Spatter Technique: “When I thumb across a toothbrush and it splatters... it gives you that lovely element of chaos across picture, across time.” — Frank Miller [08:51]

3. Channeling Emotion & Storytelling

• Anger, Drama, and Conflict (09:37–11:56):
  • Tim probes into how Miller uses emotion, especially anger, in his art.
  • “Anger is a good word, too. It's an important and powerful component. Drama is essentially conflict... I'm trying to make [my comics] out-act an actor.” — Frank Miller [10:10]

4. Comics, the Artist-Writer Synthesis, and Pioneers

• Frank is an outlier for being both a top-tier writer and artist (12:01–13:33).

  • He gives context to Will Eisner’s pioneering role—“He could do the entire thing...he always ran the show.” — Frank Miller [12:48]

• On Jack Kirby’s Impact (14:46):

  • “Kirby blasted that [panel restriction] to pieces. He was like our D.W. Griffith. For a kid like me, it was mind-expanding.” — Frank Miller [14:46]

• On "Pushing the Wall" and Defying Code: (16:11)

  • Describes the creative field’s struggle between tradition and innovation.
  • “I've always just wanted to pull us more toward people looking for a future and for trying out new stuff.” — Frank Miller [16:11]

5. Breakthroughs & Mentorship

• Neal Adams’ Tough Love (20:24–24:23):
  • Early in his career, Miller received harsh but formative feedback: “Go back to Vermont, pump gas, get married. You're no good and you never will be.”
  • Miller’s persistence: “I was a pretty determined little bastard, so I would have been back anyway.” — Frank Miller [23:53]

6. The Significance of Daredevil & Elektra

• “Elektra was the true genesis of my career in comic books.” — Frank Miller [25:36]
  • The importance of integrating art and writing into one vision and recognizing the “soap opera” nature of Marvel comics.
  • The arrival of characters like Elektra signaled Miller “understanding what a Marvel comic was.” [26:29–26:31]

7. Story Construction & Artistic Flexibility

• Starting with the End (29:27–31:15):
  • Miller’s structure: Know the story’s ending in advance.
  • Over time, he has “learned to trust the muse more, to let the story nudge me in another direction.” — Frank Miller [29:27]

8. International & Artistic Influences

• European and Japanese Impact (31:57–36:38):
  • European (Moebius) and Japanese (Kozo Ryoka, Lone Wolf and Cub) comics redefined Miller’s sense of space, time, and movement.
  • “With the Asian stuff you’ve got just a completely different sense of time and space... dead opposite of the European.” — Frank Miller [33:41]

9. Handling Failure & Creativity Post-Ronin

• Ronin as a "Broken Nose" (40:11–42:36):
  • “I got excoriated for it...and after initial high sales, they dropped. ...End of the world.” — Frank Miller [41:09]
  • The lessons of Ronin informed the structure and sophistication of The Dark Knight Returns.

10. Collaboration and Mutual Influence

• Dark Knight and Watchmen Overlap (43:50–45:49):
  • Miller and Alan Moore’s parallel reinvention of superheroes; mutual inspiration and rivalry.
  • “Alan made me so much better... He also brought back horror.” — Frank Miller [45:26, 45:50]
  • “He’s the smartest fan there ever was.” (re: Alan Moore) [46:01]

11. The Sin City Film and Robert Rodriguez

• Rodriguez's Generosity and Directorial Collaboration (48:26–53:53):
  • Rodriguez quit the DGA so Miller could co-direct the Sin City film.
  • “You're around a man of constant goodwill and of generous energy.” — Frank Miller on Rodriguez [48:44]
  • Collaborative workflow; learning from film and comics’ overlapping language.

12. Influences Beyond Comics

• Favorite Films and Books (55:36–59:00):
  • Loves old black-and-white films, especially film noir (The Caine Mutiny, Rebecca).
  • Reads a wide range: Mickey Spillane novels, ancient history (fuel for 300), and admires high-drama storytelling.

13. Hollywood and Creative Ownership

• Lessons on Hollywood Partnerships (59:41–61:52):
  • Success comes down to being surrounded by the right people.
  • “When I've worked with the right people, the experiences have been wonderful and results have been wonderful.” — Frank Miller [59:41]
  • Relies on close partnerships, notably with Selen Thomas, to navigate industry complexities.

14. Personal Life & Sobriety

• Alcohol’s Impact (62:08–64:15):
  • Honest reflection: “Against me a lot. For me, not nothing. ...I'm having the time of my life...Creatively, now I can get serious... Clarity is quite lovely.” — Frank Miller [63:06]

15. Advice for Aspiring Creators

• Start with Story, Pursue Simplicity (65:20–66:21):
  • “Cartooning is making things that are complicated and making them quite simple... Complication is not your job.” — Frank Miller [65:20]
  • Book recommendations: Scott McCloud’s Understanding Comics, Syd Field’s Screenplay, George Bridgman’s Complete Guide to Drawing from Life, Andrew Loomis for anatomical study.
  • On perspective: “Perspective does not exist... it's an invention by mathematicians. ...It's a device you apply to a drawing.” — Frank Miller [68:18]

16. Process Innovations—Sin City as Turning Point

• Batch Processing & Linework Evolution (72:05–74:56):
  • Miller describes "batch processing": doing all layouts, then pencils, then inks for an entire book.
  • “Once the black was down... I'll just add a few little things here and there. And that was... real Lucas Sin City was born.” — Frank Miller [73:28]
  • The creative freedom and innovation stemmed from working with Dark Horse, not the major publishers.

17. On Collaboration with Bill Sienkiewicz

• Their high-energy dynamic on Elektra: "We were like two 12 year olds just making a crazy God comic." — Frank Miller [81:36]

18. Life Advice & Philosophy

• Miller’s Billboard Message (85:54–87:36):
  • “Ask every question.”
  • “Challenge. When you are confronted with things that everybody says, be ready to challenge them… Just trying to go against an age of pathological conformity.” — Frank Miller [86:31, 87:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Creative Process:
  “The nature of these fantasies is exploratory. But the business has always been very conservative...I’ve always just wanted to pull us more toward people looking for a future and for trying out new stuff.” — Frank Miller [16:11]

• On Persistence in the Face of Rejection:
  “I was a pretty determined little bastard, so I would have been back anyway.” — Frank Miller [23:53]

• On Collaboration with Alan Moore:
  “He’s the smartest fan there ever was… he can take the stuff of his childhood joy and… transform anything.” — Frank Miller [46:01]

• On Creating Sin City:
  “I decided... I was going to take my baby there... I want to do a crime comic and in black and white.” — Frank Miller [75:54]

• On Simplicity in Comics:
  “Cartooning is making things that are complicated and making them quite simple...” — Frank Miller [65:20]

• On Learning from Errors:
  “You lick your wounds. It's the end of the world for a little while, but then you do a postmortem and you come out of it better.” — Frank Miller [42:44–42:46]

• Advice for the World:
  “Ask every question.” / “Challenge.” / “Why?” — Frank Miller [85:58, 86:31]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:42 – Aristotle’s definition of happiness and its role in Miller’s process
• 04:03 – How Miller uses liquid frisket and incorporates chaos
• 08:51 – Iconic ‘spatter’ technique with toothbrush
• 10:10 – Relationship to anger and channeling drama in comics
• 14:46 – Jack Kirby’s role in breaking panel conventions
• 16:11 – “Push the wall” and defy creative codes
• 20:24 – Neal Adams’ tough mentorship and Miller’s persistence
• 25:36 – The importance of Elektra and integrating writing and art
• 29:27 – The evolution of Miller’s approach to endings and structure
• 33:41 – The impact of Japanese and European comics
• 41:09 – The personal impact of Ronin’s failure
• 45:26 – Mutual improvement between Miller and Alan Moore
• 48:44 – Robert Rodriguez’s effect on Frank and their Sin City collaboration
• 55:36 – Favorite films and wider artistic influences
• 59:41 – Partnership as key to Hollywood success
• 63:06 – On sobriety and creativity post-alcohol
• 65:20 – Advice to aspiring comics creators
• 73:28 – Discovery of setting black areas first in Sin City
• 75:54 – Dark Horse Comics as an incubator for creative freedom
• 85:58 – “Ask every question.”—Frank’s message to the world

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Summary of Frank Miller’s Keys to Creative and Personal Excellence

Push boundaries, challenge norms, and let story lead. Pair relentless work ethic with willingness to question everything, simplifying complexity for readers. Embrace influences, become both student and innovator, and value key collaborators—not just in art and writing, but in all of life’s ventures.

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For Further Exploration:

• Frank Miller’s memoir, Push: My Life, Writing, Drawing, and the Art of Storytelling
• Website: frankmillerink.com
• Instagram: @frankmillerofficial

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Transcript

[Tim Ferriss]

Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers across all different disciplines. And my guest today is in a sense my lifetime. A lifetime in the making since I've been a fan since I was a wee lad and certainly many, many months in the making to do this in person with the one and only Frank Miller. Frank Miller is one of the most influential and awarded creators in entertainment. First gaining notoriety in the late 70s for his transformative work on Marvel's Daredevil. And in the world of comic books, Frank is a rare breed. He's kind of like Bo Jackson in that sense. Not only was he one of his generations, probably across multiple generations, one of the most influential artists in that entire industry, but one of the most influential writers. And that is a very, very, very uncommon combination of talents, particularly in the West. And I'll provide more context. After Daredevil, he went on to create some of the industry's most groundbreaking titles including Ronin, the Dark Turns and Year One. So if you've seen the later Batman movies, that sort of anti hero positioning, the imagery, a lot of it comes straight from his work. His series Sin City and the award winning graphic novel 300 were both adapted into blockbuster films with Miller co directing the Sin City movies with Robert Rodriguez, who is my friend here in Austin, has been on the podcast before Frank's upcoming memoir, Push the My Writing, Drawing and the Art of Storytelling is now available for pre order you can find all things frank@frankmiller inc. That's I n frankmillerink.com and on Instagram rankmillerofficial. And without further ado, please enjoy a long awaited for me and wide ranging practical conversation with the one and only Frank Miller.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

At this altitude, I can run flat.

[Frank Miller]

Out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question now? It is an appropriate time.

[Tim Ferriss]

What if I did the opposite?

[Frank Miller]

I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Frank, so nice to see you.

[Frank Miller]

Good to see you.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And just got off the phone with our mutual friend Robert Rodriguez. I'm sure that name is going to come up again. I'm sure that's going to come up again. And before we even get close to Robert, thank you Robert for the introduction, I want to pick up on something we were chatting about briefly before we started recording. And this is Aristotle. Yes, all right. Why did Aristotle come into the conversation?

[Frank Miller]

Aristotle's definition of happiness was the devotion of all of one's energies along lines of excellence. I believe that that is a general application that in an ideal life would apply to every moment you have. But it is a guiding principle to a creative life.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So let's then take maybe some of my props that we have here, and I'm going to go to my phone because I was reading an early copy of Push the My Life, Writing, Drawing and the Art of Storytelling, and I took a lot of highlights and I had to take photographs of the PDF on my Kindle to look at some of them, and I wanted to go through a little list. This might seem strange, but I tend to obsess on the specifics. These are some of the tools of your trade. Blackwing graphite pencils, white paint, India black ink, liquid frisket, erasers and sable brushes. And then it goes through description of a lot more. Winsor and Newton Series 7, mostly sizes 3 to 12, et cetera. Few questions that I want to ask about, including the toothbrush. My trusty spatter maker. What is liquid frisket?

[Frank Miller]

Liquid frisket is essentially glue.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Okay.

[Frank Miller]

It was first called that and used by oil painters to create highlights. What the painter would do, he would lay down strokes of this glue across the paint, then paint across it, and then before declaring the painting finished, he or she would then wipe up frisket, and you would have this sparkling piece of the underpainting showing through. And so it creates a very dramatic highlight. I like to use it with ink because it creates an element of chaos.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

An element of chaos. So you seem to be, in a sense, someone who thrives in chaos or by creating certain types of chaos. And this monster that I'm holding, for those who are listening and not watching, I'm holding something in my lap that feels like it's 20 to 35 pounds. I was carrying it around, walking through New York City, getting a lot of odd looks. Because it's a rectangle about the size of an X ray plate you would use to take an X ray of both lungs. It's gigantic. Then this is Frank Miller's Sin City, the Hard goodbye. And I want to just open this up and I'm going to read something from right inside. This is from Jim Lee, another legend in the space, another hero of mine for another time. I used to have his job at the same college as graphic editor of the Princeton Tiger. Found some old sketches of his in one of the desks, in fact. But here's his quote. Even after 25 years. Frank Miller's Sin City, the Hard Goodbye showcases the full potential of the comics medium. A stark, brilliant chiaroscuro, it remains a defiantly timeless, handcrafted love letter to the days of old in an increasingly slick and digital world. And I segued from the tools because when I look at some of these pages, and I'll provide some of these as B roll and so on, looking at something like this, I'll just show that to. I mean, it is a masterpiece. I mean, any one of these could be on a wall by itself. But this is sequential storytelling. And I have many questions, but one of them is about kind of aliveness and that channeling all of your energies into excellence. Because I think this came up in the documentary about you as well, American Genius, that you kind of attack the page. There seems to be a real kinetic channeling of energy into the page, which you can see in this particular version, the curator's collection. What did it feel like when you were making this that I'm holding?

[Frank Miller]

Very physical.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Very physical.

[Frank Miller]

Sin City was a real breakthrough that way, because it was the first time I decided to work so damn big. The book you're holding is the actual size of the pages I did.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So what is the size?

[Frank Miller]

It's called twice up. It's four times the size of the published book.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I mean, that covers my entire body on video, only about half of it.

[Frank Miller]

But that is the size that comic books were originally drawn back in the 1940s. And over time, in order to pick up the speed of production and just lower the price of Mechan comics, they made them smaller and smaller and smaller until finally they decided they ought to fit into an 11 by 17 photocopier. And made to the page is very, very tiny to work on, which was about the time I came in. And when I discovered these old originals from the 40s, I went, that's why they looked so damn good. And I decided with Sin City, I was going to correct the error.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

That's amazing. And toothbrush, I mentioned this at the end of your list. How do you use the toothbrush? Because I feel like this, at least in my mind, is one of the hallmark signatures in the minds of many of some Frank Miller artwork, is this particular element. So how do you use the toothbrush?

[Frank Miller]

What I do is a lid of a bottle of India ink has a little squirter thing on it, and I squirt some of that onto the bristles of a toothbrush. When I thumb across a toothbrush and it splatters across an Effect that could be texture on a wall, texture in the sky, splurting blood, whatever you choose to make.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Just kind of dragging your thumb across.

[Frank Miller]

The face as a child would. What I love is that it gives you that lovely element of chaos across picture, across time. I would combine or replace that with simply snapping a brush across my wrist, which would create more of an elongated, stretchy sort of a slash. It creates, again, something that's unpredictable but very organic. That's just playing with the materials.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What was your motto? This is from the book as well, your senior year of high school. But I think it was, get the.

[Frank Miller]

Hell out of my way.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Get the hell out of my way.

[Frank Miller]

I was impatient to leave school and get to work.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if the impatience ended there. So I say that as someone who's also very impatient. It has pros and cons. And I'm wondering, the visceral violence that is channeled into creating, say, what we see on the page in Sin City, the kinetic aspect of it is so palpable. How do you relate to anger? Using it, the right dose, if there is a right dose, channeling it versus being controlled by it. How do you think about that? Fire, maybe, is a better way to put it within.

[Frank Miller]

No, no, no, no. I mean, anger is a good word, too. It's an important and powerful component. Drama. Drama is essentially conflict. If you go all the way back to, like, the Norse myths. But you can take it all the way from the Norse myths through to terms of Endearment or whatever else. Those are all full of storm and drunk. And comics are a purely visual medium and also a not very, on the face of it, powerful. There's no way a comic book compete with the sheer spectacular firepower of cinema. That is, cinema involves so many of your senses, and it involves images that are perceptibly real and real people expressing these emotions at you. And then when they want to do spectacle, they started proving it way back with D.W. griffith and sealed the deal with Star Wars. Nobody can touch them, and they can outdo anything in stage, in any other form. So comics had to come out with little Jack Kirby swinging and just showing. Okay, we can't really do that, so we're going to go even more crazy. And he made up characters who could eat planets. And in the case of. What I've been after with my comics, is to have the drawing itself be so emotional and extreme, I'm trying to make it out, act an actor.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What I love about your comics, first.

[Tim Ferriss]

Of all, I should just point out.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

To people that don't know anything about this world. You seem to me to be an outlier on a number of different levels, one of which is that you're very well known for your art and you are very well known for your writing. How common is that in the US Comic world?

[Tim Ferriss]

In Japan, it's a little more common.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

It's a little more typical. But in the us, where would you.

[Frank Miller]

More common than it used to be? Because it used to be almost not allowed. There were a few exceptions. There was Will Eisner, for instance, who was really outstanding in that he clearly ran the whole show.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

For people who have no context whatsoever, why is Eisner such an important figure?

[Frank Miller]

I mean, he's one of the founding fathers, for one thing, because he could do the entire thing. Other people could as well. But he decided to keep doing the entire thing rather than just becoming part of a factory. Of course, he ran his own factory, but that's a whole other story. But ultimately, he settled on doing his one series, the Spirit, which is known as the Real Eisner's of the Spirit. And even though he employed other people along the way, he always ran the show and supervised it completely. And as he got older, he started doing work that he did inch top to bottom by himself. That was a much more personal nature where he once again turned comics in a new direction.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Let's explore other figures who have helped showcase the potential of this medium through innovating. Because I love this terrain. Because people listening may not be comic lovers, but there's some medium that they're fascinated by. And whether it's in the realm of fiction and let's just say, novels, whether it's in film, whether it's in comics. There are things that we might take for granted now that were not at all obvious a decade or two ago. And seems like a good time to maybe talk about Jack Kirby and how he impacted the world of comics. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading this is straight from your book, that for a long time comics were set panels in a sense. Right. And you kind of filled in the blanks to the extent that artists would sometimes get sort of pre. I don't want to say cut, but sort of outlined pages within which to place the board.

[Frank Miller]

Well, there were a lot of various ways they were restricted. I mean, it's in various ways. And a lot of this happened before I was around, so I don't know. But I think the reason you bring Kirby up in this respect, he was the guy who came in when comics had either a nine panel grid or a six panel grid. They were all the panels on the same page. And more than anybody, he blasted that to pieces. He was like our D.W. griffith. He just ripped the camera off the floor. And all of a sudden he would use two pages for a single image. For a kid like me, it was mind expanding. I was, you know, this one guy just kept coming back decade after decade after decade. I mean, he started way before I was born. I mean, he served in World War II with my parents. Not side by side, but, you know, he had several comebacks. And each time he seemed to reinvent the whole megillah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

You have, it seems like a few different guiding phrases. We have one, of course, from the book title itself, Push the Wall. Another one that comes to mind is Defy the Code. Can you expand on both of these, please? Why these two?

[Frank Miller]

Pushing the wall or pushing the walls is just. Comics have always been this strangely schizophrenic field where on the one hand you have artists and cartoonists. Writers are such people who want to explore and try new things. The nature of these fantasies is exploratory. But the business has always been very conservative. And the people who grew up on comics became themselves very tradition bound. They would fret over things like what we call continuity, worrying about, if you're working on issue number 385 of Spider man, you can't contradict something that was done in issue 14, which is, on the face of it, absurd because the character would be 85. They've been around that long. And so you had this hidebound on one side and this enthusiastic experimental field on the other. And I've always just wanted to pull us more toward people looking for a future and for trying out new stuff.

[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

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[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

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[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

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[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

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[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

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[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How did you and we're going to jump around chronologically, but let me see if I can find this particular paragraph from your book relates to a name that you all recognize, and that is Neil Adams. Neil was a hard taskmaster, utterly ruthless in his criticism. He was a godsend. I just want to read another paragraph. We'll get into the description of who this is. But you cold called his office, is that right?

[Frank Miller]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Okay. Colt called his office. This is when no one knows who you are. And then ultimately I think it was his daughter who answered the phone. She says, this is dad. We got another one. Somehow you ended up in the office. You show him your work and then, and I'll quote here, he told me just how awful my stuff was and didn't bother with using any sugar coating either. Where'd you say you were from? Vermont. Go back to Vermont, pump gas, get married. You're no good and you never will be. End quote. I gulped. This is referring to you and then asked, can I fix it and show you again tomorrow. To which Neil responds, yeah, I'll see you tomorrow. He growled, okay, who is Neil and why did you reach out to him?

[Frank Miller]

Oh, that's Neil Adams.

[Tim Ferriss]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Who is he?

[Frank Miller]

He was the outstanding artist of. He was, in a way, a one man generation. Because there was a long period where nobody entered the comics business because it didn't pay well. And believe me, the common wisdom, we would be out of business soon. We'd just been through the horrors of the comics code and the public humiliation and the self censorship of that time, been disgraced, going from a mass medium and being turned into just a punchline, a dirty punchline. And there were just a few people keeping the light alive and still doing these old titles like the Flash and so on. But the books were looking pretty crummy. But there were these glimmers, there were these guys. Some of the old guys just stayed there and kept doing great stuff. An artist named Gil Kane, for instance. But there was Neal Adams. He was this new guy who came in young and brought such enthusiasm and a whole new look. It was a whole new take me seriously look. It was much more. A much more realistic look. And he dragged a whole generation with him in a lot of ways, not just with his work. He did it with his speech and with his actions. He opened up a studio in Manhattan called Continuity, which did advertising work and essentially became a halfway house for comic book artists to come in and get his training, where he became the guru of this place. When I called up, I looked up his number in the phone book, as you said, spoke to his daughter, got to see him that day and started hanging out there. And I started living on little advertising jobs. Sometimes I'd just color them and then eventually I'd get to draw them and so on. And then he lined up my first comic book work. And I was hardly the only one.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I'm so fascinated by this exchange and his willingness to help for a few different reasons. Number one is, I wonder how did this guy muster the bandwidth to do his own work, run a business and also mentor? Just that question alone. And then I also think about the sliding door moment of what if he had just had a really bad day and he was like, you're not going back tomorrow, kid? Sorry, I'm too busy. Right. What a different life.

[Frank Miller]

Sorry, I'm sorry, I gotta blow my own horn.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, blow your own horn.

[Frank Miller]

I was a pretty determined little bastard, so I would have been back anyway.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

He would've been back anyway.

[Frank Miller]

Yeah, I banged on many Doors before his.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Well, okay, so this was actually going to be my next question, which was, why do you think he agreed to let you come back? He was like, go pump gas, go back to Vermont. And then you're like, let me fix it and come back tomorrow. And he's like, ah, okay, fine.

[Frank Miller]

Actually, no, because I asserted that I wanted to fix it.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Okay, got it.

[Frank Miller]

Because I didn't cry and leave.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How many interactions like that, how many different visits showing him work did it take for him to finally say that your work was not for throwing away?

[Frank Miller]

It wasn't all that many, I don't think. And then I worked on short little jobs for Gold Key Comics. That was an old publisher a long time ago and so on, where they would hire you for a three page job where you got $25 a page, that kind of thing. That was what they called paying your dues.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

We're going to hop around a little bit, but I mean, people need to read the book, they need to see the doc. But I know a lot of people have covered certain aspects of your bio. You first gained notoriety in the late 70s for your transformative work on Daredevil. Now I also, and this is pulling from the book, read a bit. And this is. I'm putting a character, you'll have to explain, but Electra in kind of brackets, because I'm inserting that, but. But now I'm quoting you. Was the true genesis of my career in comic books. Could you speak to that chapter of your life that involved Elektra and what the significance of that was?

[Frank Miller]

Oh, I think that was because I didn't come in as the writer on Daredevil. I just simply came in as an artist for hire and realized fairly early on that this was no way to do it. Because the pictures and the words are one thing. I mean, the words were obvious once I drew the pictures and I very quickly took over plotting the stories and so on. I felt that Daredevil needed a counterpoint, a femme fatale. And I came up with Elektra. But I realized I was going to hold her back until I was writing the book myself. And I did it that way.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I suppose what I'm trying to unpack is, and maybe I'm overstating the importance, but was that sort of introduction of Elektra an important inflection point for you in some way?

[Frank Miller]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

In what way was it important?

[Frank Miller]

Well, if you look at those old comics, that's when, in a way, I started understanding what a Marvel comic was. A Marvel comic isn't a story every month. A Marvel comic is an ongoing soap opera that you're following. And as soon as with my first issue that I wrote, it was called Elektra, and it was all about them. From then on, the whole thing becomes one sprawling. I mean, it's sprawling in both good and bad ways. Sort of epic where characters come and characters go, but it's focused around a pretty small cast. You know, there's a diabolical kingpin who runs all the gangs. There's the deadly enemy, Bullseye, neither of whom I made up. And there's Daredevil and Elektra. And all of this is like a tortured romance that the hero's in love with a psychotic assassin. So it's his boundary. I'd have some trouble.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Bound to have some tears involved at some point.

[Frank Miller]

It was very adolescent. It came from a very atlascent state of mind. But I'm very proud of it.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I mean, I loved Elektra.

[Frank Miller]

He was really inspired.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I have a lot of comics with Elektra at my childhood home on Long island to this day, polybagged with backing.

[Frank Miller]

And all that, whenever I'm asked to draw her. And you think it's just great.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So for folks who don't have any familiarity and also because I want to better understand it, there are different approaches to making a comic and also crafting a story. Right. And so I want to pull up something that I have here, and it's going to take me a second to read, but I'd love you to walk people through this after I read at least some of it. All right. Everything starts with and proceeds from story. Some simple story rules. Number one, start your story as late into the action as possible. End it as early into the action as possible, too. Get your hero into trouble fast. That, or give the hero a pressing problem to solve. I work on the spine of the story. That's a phrase that I'd love for you to define. Work on the spine of the story and figure out how it starts and ends, and then roughly plot the in between. And I'll just read one more sentence and then I'll let you kind of fill. To do this, I make notes and create scenes that will advance the storyline, but allow room for digressions and narrative side streets. And then you talk about preliminary sketches and so on. Can you expand on this and just maybe give an example of how you would do that, whether it's with a book like Sin City or any other that comes to mind?

[Frank Miller]

How I do what?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How you actually start from Step One in creating a story and then proceed through that. It seems like also in the introduction that having a very good idea of where your story ends is a critical piece of that.

[Frank Miller]

I knew at the beginning of Sin City that Marvel was going to die, for instance. It's very important. Of course, when I started Dark Knight, I thought Batman was going to die, but it didn't work out that way. Yeah, my methodology has changed over time. It used to be as rigid as more rigid than what you just read. I mean, I used to really believe there was a way. I was seeking the way to do it. Now I do believe in letting a story nudge me in another direction. I believe in trusting the muse more than I used to.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How does that show up then, in practice? You know the starting point, you know the end of the story. You have characters in a situation. Do you draw your way through and then figure out kind of the narrative arc? What is the proper blend for you now of? Well, the thing is to serendipity come.

[Frank Miller]

In thinking of yourself as being the generator of the story shortly and saying that these are the pieces of clay and this is what I want to do with them. But to realize that the artistic process is not at its best when it's an ecumenical process. And sometimes the characters talk back and sometimes they know more than you do. And always be aware that there will be that. Just that flash, that thing that happens where all of a sudden you're in a different story and you realize, this is the one. No, this isn't the one I was looking for, but this is where I want to be. I don't know. To me, it's sort of like being a space explorer and being ready for things and knowing that the whole job is really trying to figure out what to ignore and what to follow. I like the mystery of storytelling more than the horror. I used to see it.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Well, let's talk about picking and choosing and specifically would love to hear. I lived in Japan as an exchange student and learned to read and speak Japanese largely from reading comic books.

[Frank Miller]

So Kozori Akami must kept you busy.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I mean, I was busy reading all sorts of comic books with my little electronic dictionary.

[Frank Miller]

I would love to read Kuzuryo Kami in Japanese.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Oh yeah. It's a different experience, of course.

[Frank Miller]

I'll bet it is.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How did you first get exposed to, for instance, Moebius Otomo? Any others you want to mention? How did you get exposed to those influences? And who were or who are they.

[Frank Miller]

The two main invasions? Well, three. There were three actually, the first was the English because DC Comics started publishing Brian Bolland and Mike McMahon and all the rest. But they were the easiest for everybody to see because they were all American comics fans and the language was the same and everything. It started getting a lot wilder when Forbidden Planet Comics opened.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Mando. Forbidden Planet, Yeah.

[Frank Miller]

And when Marvel started publishing movies, then the floodgates opened because it was Europe. Just knocked everybody's socks off. It was Mobius, Mobius, Mobius, Mobius, Mobius. But there were the other guys too, that nobody was paying attention to. Moebius, obviously, was a tidal wave that swept through culture. His effect on cinema and so on. And for me, the other event was I had a girlfriend, her father was a businessman who did a lot of business in Japan. And she tossed me a phone book that was a Japanese comic and it was Kozo Ryoka. And I opened it and studied it and fell in. And like Ronan was born that day. My storytelling style changed everything. And from that I helped bring the title over and helped with the. The Asian invasion. Seeing it all become so much more international, it's just been fascinating. And with the Asian stuff, you've got just a completely different sense of time and space. It is the dead opposite of the European.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

When was Mobius sort of at his peak of influence? What would have been the timing, roughly, on that?

[Frank Miller]

I couldn't name the exact date. Certainly he's up there with Jack Kirby. In terms of being one of those people who. It's like, if you're listing Beethoven and Mahler and all that.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I'm trying to figure out if the timing is such because I've looked at tons of Mobius artwork that Mobius.

[Frank Miller]

When did Alien come out? When did Alien come out?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Oh, Alien. Good question. I mean, it would have been post Star Wars. I was just trying to think, because Mobius, also, a lot of his artwork makes me think of Tatooine and some of these things in Star Wars. So I'm wondering what the directionality.

[Frank Miller]

What was influence with Star Wars?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah. Okay, great. That's what I was trying to answer for myself because it seems so obvious when you look at it. And to come back to the Japanese comic book that I use, it's not a well known title, certainly outside of Japan. Even within Japan, a lot of Japanese people kind of scratch their head when I tell them it's called Rokudenashi Bruzu, which is Rokudenashi Blues, which is about high school gangs, which aren't really a thing, but they pretend like it is. And the bad Kids wear different types of uniforms called choran or like, anyway, but it's a hyper violent. There are a lot of fight scenes in this, which made it a little less intimidating for someone who couldn't yet really read Japanese.

[Frank Miller]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So my translating burden was lower with this comic, and the art was spectacular. What blew my mind because I had read comics all the way through my childhood up to that point, and I was 15 when I got to Japan, like you said, it was how time and space and speed and motion were depicted so differently. And how they captured, say, the swing of a leg or created the effect of blur was so captivating to me. It was unlike anything I had seen.

[Frank Miller]

One of the things I've got to say is that amazes me about the manga stuff is that they could draw people relax so well that so much of the drawing in Lone Wolf and Cub people aren't blazing around and stuff. And even in combat, what they're capturing is the fluidity and grace of the movement. I mean, it's the opposite of Kirby, where everything is angles and force. And so it's a very Asian violence. And in Europe, you'll often see a very elegant Mobius's violence. When he went really violent, it would be jarring and horrible, but it would still be gorgeous. And it would still be. The wrist would be crooked just that much as it slammed into the person's face and so on. And it's just the difference of cultures reflected in every aspect of cartooning is fascinating.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How did the European and Japanese styles that would incorporate Lone Wolf and Cub influence then how your approach changed after that?

[Frank Miller]

I was very young. I was in my 20s, and so I sat down and I did a book that imitated them shamelessly. In Ronin, I did Kojima with the samurai scenes. I did Mobius with the science fiction scenes. Now he discovered Augie Bilal and did him all over the place.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What was that experience like for you in doing that? Did you find it energizing?

[Frank Miller]

Oh, it was great. It was like any transition that big is a rebirth.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

All right, I'm going to ask you a lot more about Ronin, which I have in my suitcase back at my hotel. But before we get there, I want to talk about. Because I believe I saw this in the book as well. Effectively, if you're boring yourself or if you're bored, you're going to bore your audience and throw it out and start over. When do you know if something is working? And I'll pull out an example of what seems like something that was working and what Was the name of the colorist? Is it Glynis? Is that how you say her name?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. Glynis is Oliver. Glynis Green.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Right. So during some of the work on Daredevil, would call you up and say how excited she was working on it. That seems like a signature of something working. How do you tell if something is working or not working?

[Frank Miller]

Whether you want to get out of bed and do it or not? I mean, it's not really a problem I have had in so long I can't remember.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah. So if you look back at what you've ended up being happiest with or less happy with, with hindsight, 20 20. This doesn't necessarily mean audience response.

[Frank Miller]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Not talking about market response. It's like intrinsic working for you. I suppose what I'm looking for is just any thoughts for folks who have trouble throwing things away because they just have a high default excitement. So they get wedded to something and they're like, I'm not going to throw this away. And they have trouble killing their darlings or murdering their darlings. Which is another line that you like.

[Frank Miller]

Yeah, I love that line.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Maybe some way of backing into this would be, what are some examples of things that you have thrown out? How do you decide when it's time to cut your losses or get rid of something?

[Frank Miller]

It's like when it doesn't get me out of bed. It's that simple.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

It's that simple. All right.

[Frank Miller]

This is my primary function on Earth. If I'm not enjoying it, there's no reason to do it.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Time to switch gears. Ronin seemed like such an all in bold adventure on a lot of levels.

[Tim Ferriss]

And.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

This is lesson six in your book, the Dark Night Cometh. Smash expectations. But here's where it starts. And there's a quote from Rudyard Kipling from if, which is if you can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same. Now, here's the first part that I wanted to quote, and I won't do the whole thing, but there's nothing like a broken nose to clarify the mind as a creative experience. Ronan was a fascinating, exhilarating exploration. And it goes on. So why was Ronan a broken nose?

[Frank Miller]

Because I got excoriated for it. A guy had an angry audience. People who wanted to be like Daredevil.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yep. They wanted more of the same from you. Yeah.

[Frank Miller]

And after initial high sales, they dropped. And it was not the reception DC wanted. They were, like, playing funeral music, and it was gone. And I'd had nothing but a run of successes before.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How did you feel after that? I mean, I'm not comparing my books to anything you've done. These are iconic pieces of work that you've produced. But I remember having my first two books succeed. Expectations for the Third, Sky High initially does really well, and then for whatever reason, just doesn't meet expectations. And I took it so incredibly personal. I had a really hard time with it. And I'm just wondering.

[Frank Miller]

And of the world? Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What was it like for you?

[Frank Miller]

End of the world.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

End of the world?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How long did it feel like the end of the world?

[Frank Miller]

I don't know. It was a while. But the thing is that it was useful because I started examining it and said, what didn't work? You didn't connect. It's like you did something. It made me go, okay, let's go for broke and put something together and develop the theories, do something that'll work. And I ended up doing the most structured, ruthlessly structured thing I've ever done in my life, which was Dark Knight, which is. I mean, it's so structured, it's ridiculous. It breaks into 16 page increments across four 48 page books. And each one has a three act structure. So it's a four act structure with three, three act structures. Basically it's a trilogy.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And that was a conclusion or a direction you chose after analyzing Ronin. Why didn't Ronin work? What do you think are some of the reasons it didn't work?

[Frank Miller]

I think that it drifted into surrealism. And it was also. It was a fantasy and it was out of its time without question.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

You lick your wounds. It's the end of the world for a little while, but then you do a postmortem.

[Frank Miller]

And you come out of it better, Yuja.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And you come out of it. And then moving into the Dark Knight Returns, how are you thinking about getting back in the ring and working with this? You mentioned the structure as one aspect of it. Anything else that was important for you to keep in mind personally as you moved into working on that particular project?

[Frank Miller]

I was into it. The complexity of it was something I had never attempted before. There's so many goddamn characters in that thing and they're all moving in 18 directions at once. I was into it. I was into it. I wasn't thinking about Ronan or anything else.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I mean, it's a hell of a all consuming scope, right? So you have to keep your hand on the wheel and pay attention. Am I getting the timeline right that you were working on? The Dark Knight Returns at the Same time that Alan Moore is working on Watchmen, or am I getting that timeline?

[Frank Miller]

It was a little before, but they overlapped.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

They overlapped?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah, they overlapped. I think they started affecting each other in subtle ways.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

In what types of ways?

[Frank Miller]

I don't know exactly, because Alan and I knew each other. We met while we were doing those two books. I had launched Dark Knight, and he was boiling over with Watchmen and his British stuff all over the place. And it was all part of this whole. I don't know what you could call what we did to the superhero, but it was reconstruction, deconstruction, whatever it was. And so his approach seemed more to really go at the underbelly of it, and mine was to reconstitute, in an uglier world, to reconstitute the basic gist of the hero.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I know why this came to mind for me. And to give credit again where credit's due. Frank Miller, American genius. Solene Thomas, sitting about 15ft away, always making amazing stuff.

[Frank Miller]

Making ugly faces.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

She's behaving for the time being, but got some great footage from Alan, who basically said he heard these murmurs about what you were working on and that it was amazing. And he was like, oh, shit. Basically better. Really up my game. The reason I wanted to bring this up is that I just find having at least some other player on the field who's really good forces you.

[Frank Miller]

Oh, God, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

To improve.

[Frank Miller]

Oh, Alan made me so much better. Better at so many things. Because when I came back to Daredevil, for instance, it was like, all of a sudden it was like, oh, my God, I'm just writing. And there's Alan Moore out there now. And all of a sudden, I was just trying so much, you know, trying so hard to be a writer. He also brought back horror.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

He brought back horror?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. There hadn't been any horror in comics for generations.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What makes Alan interesting to you? Just take a sidebar on that.

[Frank Miller]

Okay. He's the smartest fan there ever was.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

The smartest fan?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. What does that mean? Inside all of that? He is a guy who grew up in comics, but he's just so damn smart that he's able to take the stuff of his childhood joy and to take it down into places that nobody's ever dreamt of going for and transform. Anything he's ever done, he's transformed utterly. I mean, the first time he sat down to write Swamp Thing, he changed the entire precept of the character. That's something a lot of people miss. It had always been this guy who fell into the muck and got transformed into a swamp guy. In his very first issue of Swamp Thing, Alan transformed him into a collection of swamp weeds that used this human as a model to construct a new body for itself. There was no human in there at all anymore. And he first time at bat, the first time I ever saw his name just completely reinvented. Scared the crap out of me. Yeah, he was something when he showed up.

[Tim Ferriss]

Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Many of you know how deeply I love Japan and its culture of unwavering dedication to craft, refinement, commitment to continuous improvement.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

But why do I bring this all up? Well, the same focus on improving one.

[Tim Ferriss]

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[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I promised I would bring back Robert at some point.

[Frank Miller]

Sure.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And feel free. If there's anything you'd like to dive into that I'm bouncing around and not hitting, let me know. But you've described Robert as an angel of sorts. Why is that? Robert Rodriguez?

[Frank Miller]

Well, for one thing, to be around him. You're around a man of constant goodwill and of generous energy.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

He's very generous. Just a quick Sorry to interrupt, but people might find this funny. When I moved to Austin in 2017, the very first person I had over for dinner at my house and I was very excited about it was Robert, who I'd known for a while, invited him over, he was on his way and then I realized, wait a second, I have no plates and I have no silverware. So he brought over two plates from his house, plus silverware, which I still have to this day. So that's Robert. That's Robert. He's like, keep the plates and the silverware. I think you're Going to need it next time.

[Frank Miller]

Oh my God.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So, Frank, you were mentioning Robert's generous spirit and I wanted to underscore something that I only learned after watching the documentary, which is that Rodriguez, as I understand it, quit the Director's Guild so that you could receive co director credit. I had no idea. That seems wild.

[Frank Miller]

I remember the day he did it.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, well, can you describe what happened on that day?

[Frank Miller]

No. He just told me he just did it. They said you didn't have the. What was the word for. Wasn't. Credentials. It was something along those lines. He just grinned and said, so I quit because he didn't want anything to stand in the way of us just moving ahead. He knew that I needed the authority on the set because they were his people and everybody there, they were so loyal to him that he needed to be able to bequeath that to me to. For things to really work the way both of us need them to.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What was it like working on that film with Robert? How did you divide or mesh your duties?

[Frank Miller]

At one point somebody in production made this ridiculous poster of the two of us as a two headed beast because we were working right on top of each other the whole time. There was another point where we were shooting orders right past each other, although we were almost always saying the same thing. But there was one point where we weren't saying exactly the same thing. And there was Brittany Murphy in the middle of her scene.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

One of the actors.

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. And there she was as a scantily clad barmaid and she just tossed up her. I think she tossed her tray in the air and says, there's two of them. But generally it was just a dream. After a while, they tended to know which one to go to for which kind of problem.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

The actors did.

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. Oh yeah. And so did production.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So would they. Cut. What were those different types of problems? I'm so curious.

[Frank Miller]

Well, certainly anything to do with really the mechanics of making the movie was Robert.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Robert. Right.

[Frank Miller]

You know, but when it came to the internal workings of the characters, the.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Motivations of the characters, the histories, the.

[Frank Miller]

And, you know, or if they wanted to try something out, I could fairly quickly tell them whether it was in character or not. And then we would often just get together, the two of us go over a bunch of stuff. And there were any number of cases where Robert would come to me and say, I need a new shot here, I need a new scene. I remember one time he said, I need something new here, Frank. It's gotta be quick, it's gotta be cheap. And it's gotta be brilliant. And we just sat down with a sheet of paper. It was some of the most fun I ever had, working so damned fast.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And, you know, and knowing Robert, having spent a good amount of time with him, we both live in Austin. I can see both of you working together. It's very easy for me to see. And I encourage people to listen to my episodes I've done with Robert. Start with the first one about his creative process and bio. But he used to draw comics. He drew comics. He's very unorthodox. He doesn't feel like he has to follow a fixed set of rules. And I don't know if he did this on set for Sin City, but he'll often have actors painting. He'll be playing guitar.

[Frank Miller]

Oh, no. That was so important. Yeah. He always wanted to keep the creative juices flowing. There was one time when he rented out a hall in Austin, Bruce Willis and his band played.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Oh, really?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. So there's Bruce Willis up there pounding it out, like, doing his Springsteen.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Keep the creative juices flowing. And he really walks the talk. And also. So I may be stating the obvious for people, but when I look at, say, Sin City as you created it here, it's so inherently cinematic and directorial in terms of angles, framing. I've always felt that way. Even looking at, say, storyboards, I'm like, okay, well, if not the same, certainly, but there's a lot that rhymes. And so when I'm looking at these innovations with, say, whether it's back in the day with Jack Kirby or looking at some of the Japanese influences and how they capture motion differently, it makes me think of innovations in film at the same time, where you think of a Kurosawa doing a Rashomon and inserting multiple perspectives, and you're like, okay. I mean, you're solving a lot of the same problems and exercising seemingly a lot of the same creative muscles.

[Frank Miller]

Yeah, well, that's the way media works, though. That's the way art terms work. It's funny because it's like so many people strive so hard to act as if they work in a vacuum and no one does. And the influences are constant and inexorable. That's kind of the beauty of the beast, really. I mean, occasionally this one piercing person will come through. But even Hitchcock came from somewhere. You can even cut back to what he sprung from or Wells or whatever. And even those two were in pretty tight competition and did a lot of the same tricks. So it's like it's all a big mishmash.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Outside of the films you've been involved with, what are some of your favorite films, whether they are scripted, documentary or otherwise?

[Frank Miller]

I'm a big fan of old black and white, it's no secret. But that's not just the olive. Film noir. I can give you chapter and verse on film noir, but that's all over the book and everywhere else. Occasionally, I'll see an absolute masterpiece. Kane Mutiny comes to mind.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I'm not familiar with it. What is the Caine Mutiny?

[Frank Miller]

Kane Mutiny is a World War II story featuring an absolutely brilliant Humphrey Bogart playing exactly the opposite of the kind of character you'd expect him to play. He plays an almost Richard Nixonian figure of a World War II destroyer minesweeper pilot who is completely paranoid. Fred McMurray plays a character you would never expect him to play. This is not My Three Sons. This is. This is. Frederick Murray is a very serious actor playing a military lawyer. And it's a study in paranoia on the high seas.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What appeals to you about the movie? Or do you just get swept on it? Is it that these actors are doing what seems diametrically opposed to what people associate them with? Is it something else?

[Frank Miller]

Well, not particularly. I just love high drama. And I often do love to see an actor like Bogart play a character who you don't expect Maltese Falcon, typecast him for the rest of his career. Before that, he played many, many roles which were often shifty, nasty little men. And he played a paranoid killer once in an adaptation, I believe, of a James M. Kane novel. And I love to see the actors when they aren't trapped by the audience's expectations, the things that Robert Mitchum was capable of. He was pretty extraordinary. But also, I like to see the movies that really were discovering what they could do and, well, are finding them. If you look at Grapes of Wrath, that movie is hunting for what it is, but it's doing so in such a compelling way. It's going in such an aching way. Henry Fonda is extraordinary in that movie. And also, I just like to get in the hands of a great director. That's why I do keep getting back to Hitchcock. I love falling back into one of his old movies. I could watch Rebecca, I swear, every night.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I've never seen it, so that's got to be on my.

[Frank Miller]

Oh, it is so good to watch it. It is one of the most romantic movies you'll ever see, and it's occasionally very spooky. It's a date movie.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Done. Thanks for doing my homework for me. What artists or art Forms have influenced the work that you do outside of comics themselves.

[Frank Miller]

Well, movies a lot. And lots of books. I've read lots of books.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What types of books?

[Frank Miller]

When I grew up reading Mickey Spillane novels. And from that, all the other crime stuff. And somewhere along the line, I fell in love with ancient history. And that's where I got 300. And all of that history is just endless wealth. It's like everywhere you turn, there's more and more to get. It's very breathtaking. When I was a kid, I watched a lot of TV. But I don't know.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Let's come back to 300. Your other adventures in Hollywood. What have you learned? Because I asked this selfishly. When I work on my stuff, I'm a control freak, Complete control freak. And a lot of my friends are control freaks. And I've just seen a number of different train wrecks When Hollywood and the structures in Hollywood collide with a creative who has a story or something that they view as their baby. I've just seen a lot of messes. And I'm wondering what you have learned. Learned about working in entertainment or Hollywood?

[Frank Miller]

Oh, boy. I've got one overriding thing, okay, which is just. I mean, more important than anything else is the right people. It's like when I've worked with the right people, the experiences have been wonderful and results have been wonderful.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How do you know for you who the right people are? Because there's so many slick folks in la. No offense to anyone in la. I know, but, man, do you get told what you want to hear. And I'd love to know how you identify. Having spent some time in the trenches.

[Frank Miller]

I don't know, man. All I can tell you is that I've been exceedingly lucky once. I've been unspeakably lucky the other time, I was exceedingly lucky with Zack Snyder because in his case, he was taking control. He was going to do it okay, and he did a brilliant job. In the case of Robert Rodriguez, that was heaven. Because it was late Venture lifetime, when it's been more distant than that. It's been Bye Bye, baby more. That's been the same thing. That it just happens. But it was something I did. If it's something that I did in a Marvel DC comic that gets adapted, that I end up seeing pieces of what I did mixed in with things that feel like they came out of a Dirty Harry movie. Mixed with things that came out of Scooby Doo, and it all gets a little less exciting.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Let's just say you created a Masterpiece. In the next 12 months that everyone in Hollywood's fighting over, how do you make some of the important decisions about who to work with? Do you call Robin and you're like, hey, what do you think about these people? Do you call Zack Snyder and ask him the same question?

[Frank Miller]

The answer is right across the room. I mean, Celine Thomas runs my company and she really knows what she's doing. And before I really hear about anything, she already knows all these people and what they're doing and everything. I wouldn't even call it a hire. It's a partnership.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

All roads lead to Selen. She's bowing in the background.

[Frank Miller]

She's waving us away.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I want to ask about alcohol. What is your relationship to alcohol? What has it done for or against you?

[Frank Miller]

Oh, that's. I wouldn't call it an easy question, but it's a simple enough one. Especially the way you phrased it. Simple answer against me a lot for me, not nothing. It's taken a long time to come to that conclusion. It's a big old aspect of my life. It's again, it's a genetic condition that I allow to get out of control. I would say I did use it to disinhibit me and probably worked very, very productively because of it and did stuff that was inspired and occasionally reckless. But the deleterious effects and the ways it's affected other parts of my life, no, hasn't done me a goddamn bit of good. I was coerced to stop. I was silen and others decided I was going to die. And they arranged for me to be put in a place and watched. And the time had to pass, medicines given and that sort of thing takes a while. I will tell you this in all sincerity, this is not box drinking bit for either one of you. I'm having a time of my life in that respect. I mean, creatively. Now I'm going like, okay, now I can get serious. Okay. It's like, for one thing is what happens when you get off the sauce. I imagine any addictions like this, you don't realize how much anger that has been bottled up in it and how what you thought was fuel. I mean, I thought I was fueled by all this, you know, this kind of like fire. Oh, it doesn't fuel you. It doesn't fuel you. It's like saying, oh, it's great to have my stomach feel this way. When you're constipated, it is a lot better to be focused and moving. Clarity is quite lovely.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So did the getting off of alcohol in and of itself dissipate the fire or the anger? Or did the getting sober allow you to better deal with that in some way?

[Frank Miller]

It helps me understand when and where it's appropriate. There's plenty to be angry about, but it's not this free floating. Am I mad at myself? Am I mad at the world?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What advice would you give to a dedicated novice who's looking to get into comics?

[Frank Miller]

It's like really looking.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Get into drinking. Where should they. What's your favorite cocktail? No comics. And they're a student of the craft. They're obsessed, they're dedicated. They have the raw ingredients that maybe Neil saw in you. What advice would you give to them?

[Frank Miller]

Part of what I said in the book, which is story, story, story. First, think of it as one craft. Don't think of writing and drawing. Humanize one thing and it will become clear what it is. But beyond that, it's. Cartooning is making things that are complicated and making them quite simple. That's where your mind should be going more than anywhere else at this stage. Complication is not your convey information. Then learn that. I mean, pick up Scott McCloud's book on understanding comics, for instance, and see how he breaks down how comics work. At the same time, pick up Syd Fields book on screenplay. Get a good sense for a simple approach to three act storytelling. You'll use it for a year or two and then you won't be using it anymore. But it gets you somewhere. Learn how to draw.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How do you learn how to draw? I think this is in the book, but Neal Adams telling you to go out and buy some toy cars so you can learn how to draw cars correctly.

[Frank Miller]

That was great advice.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Great advice, right? What great advice. So what a simple solve. What a simple solution. How does someone learn to draw like humans?

[Frank Miller]

Humans are the big problem, you know, and oh man, every dirty trick there is. I mean, I can give you some names of some books.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Frank Miller]

Okay, okay. George Bridgman.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

George Bridgman, yeah.

[Frank Miller]

Okay. There's no e in it in Bridgman. There is it in George. And it's the complete guide to drawing from life. It's only about the figure.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Why do you like that book? There's so many books on drawing. Why do you like this one?

[Frank Miller]

This one's good for. Because he's an art of cartoonist. He treats the body like a machine so it's easier to understand. You do get the gesture, but you'll have to bring that yourself anyway. Stuff's completely non photographic. It's somewhere between the thinking of Michelangelo and the thinking of a comic book artist.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

That's cool. So that's the non photographic that seems critical here.

[Frank Miller]

There is another person people like a lot named Andrew Loomis. Andrew Loomis, Yeah, it's L O O M I s. I favor him less because his work has a sleeker, more sleeker, smoother look. And I favor the more mechanical, muscular style. But usually any aspiring comic book artists love both those books on the shelf.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How did you learn perspective structures? How did you learn how to work with perspective?

[Frank Miller]

The trick to perspective is realize that it is a trick. It's a complete lie. Perspective does not exist. I mean, it's an invention by mathematicians. So do keep that in mind when you worry about perspective. So it's a device that you apply to a drawing and. But you know that when you look down this room that lines seem to converge and so on. So what you do is you rough out the basic shape of what you think something is and then you converge. A couple of those lines. They hit at a point and that becomes the horizontal. And you can keep your vertical straight up or you can give it an upper or lower tilt and so on. There are books on perspective too. I just don't know the names.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

But how did you develop your abilities with perspective?

[Frank Miller]

Dating other comic book artists?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, and I have to say, and hopefully this doesn't sound strange, but looking at this gigantic beast here, looking at for instance, this is one of many, many different pages that I captured just to revisit. But when I look at some of these, this is the one I showed before. I'll show it again, but this one here. So you look at this two page spread and I'll describe it for folks. But these are really stark, very almost inversed color palettes. But although they're black and white of a dancer and the elegant minimalism and some of the line work in this book makes me think of certain really old school illustrators like Leyendecker. And it's just there's an archetypal energy to this type of work. And I remember in the documentary to invoke Jim Lee's name again, he said something like he was talking about, I don't know if it was Sin City or your work in general or you. But he said, and then I could try A, B or C. And then I'm sure that Frank would tell me I'm using too many lines. It was something like that. And I thought it was.

[Frank Miller]

I give the heart something like that. I Can't do what he does. So I make fun of it.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah. So I recall collecting people should check out Jim Lee's penciling too. I mean, back in the day I collected when he was working on the X Men and stuff. I mean, just looking at the anatomical work he did with like colossus and stuff.

[Frank Miller]

Jesus Christ. Amazing.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Amazing. This seems to access something different and I'm. I'm wondering how you developed the economy of elegant line use and use of negative space like this, use of black and white. Because part of the reason I asked about the perspective, as I noticed, which is something you can only really notice in something that's large format and produced this way, is all of the perspective lines that have been erased. There's a million perspective lines that have been erased in this.

[Frank Miller]

And the thing is that makes you feel the.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Exactly. And then you have something like this here and this. If you can see this one, I'm hitting with my knee.

[Frank Miller]

Now we see how I got those arms.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah. Where you see where your mind is.

[Tim Ferriss]

Creating all the perspective you need to.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Make sense of this as a three dimensional experience in your brain. But it looks like probably 40, 50, 60 lines of perspective have all been erased. How did you develop this style?

[Frank Miller]

I remember one time I was talking with. I was early on in Sin City and I was talking with Dick Giordano. You know who he was? I know the name, yeah. He was a comic book artist for a long time, mostly known as being an associate of Neal Adams. And he was looking at the early Sin City stuff. And you notice the early Sin City work has much more line work in it than later stuff. He said he was the best teacher in comics. He was a good artist and everything, but he was a great editor. He mentored Klaus Janssen, for instance, and was a terrific influence over a lot of people. He said, Frank, real New York Italian all the way to this guy. He said, frank, I'm looking at this in city you're doing. And he said, and I'm thinking about some of the old guys. And I'm thinking there was this old guy, names him, I can't remember right now. And he was doing stuff kind of like yours, only eventually he just started laying in all the black areas first putting the lines in later. And he found out he didn't need so many lines.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

That's interesting.

[Frank Miller]

I went home and the real Lucasin City was born. Because once the black was down, I went, hey, I'm more than halfway home. I'm there. I'll just add a few little Things here and there. And that was when I've worked that way ever since on everything.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And at what point did you also, it seems like innovate with, as I understand it, kind of start to finish, first to last page, batch processing, where instead of doing the penciling, the lettering, the inking, the coloring on a per page basis, you're basically doing the penciling for the entire book.

[Frank Miller]

That was Sin City as well.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

That was Sin City as well.

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

It's just so mind blowing. It seems to me, I guess in retrospect, that that makes so much sense to do it the way that you did it.

[Frank Miller]

I decided I would do all the tissue layouts, trace them all off into pencil drawings, then do all the panel borders. You don't want to be around me on those days, and then lay on all the flat black areas. And what this did was it made it more fun every step of the way. And it sped the whole thing up like crazy. And it made the work so much better. It was idiotic by the end of it. The line work was so spontaneous, man.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What is that first step that you mentioned with tissue?

[Frank Miller]

Well, that's where I solved the basic compositional and drawing issues on a separate piece of tissue, which is just a type of. It's vellum. It's not really a tissue. It's stronger than that. It's a type of drawing paper, but it's nearly transparent. I place that marker rough. My drawing board is a light table and I put the actual piece of Bristol board on top of that and trace that off so that I can move things around, I can change the size, I can replace things and so on.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So that was also done on Sin City. That's wild. So a lot of innovation happened on Sin City.

[Frank Miller]

Yes, that was a transformative piece of work.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Why did so much coalesce during Sin City in that way?

[Frank Miller]

Well, therein lies a tale.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I love tales.

[Frank Miller]

Well, no, it's because everything was happening. I had broken away from the major publishers, was working with the then young Dark Horse comics, and we tested the waters with each other with the Martha Washington series. And it was hard boiled. And I decided I was going to take my baby there. And so I just decided, okay, it's time to reinvent the wheel. I'm going to apply the stuff that I've been told, as I said to Mike Richardson, I said, look, we've done two science fiction series and I know everything's superheroes of science fiction. I want to do a crime comic and in black and white. And he didn't flinch. So we were rolling with that.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So was it the ability to take that creative leap that seems like it been building inside you for a very long time? Is that the kind of creative unlock that then led to these various innovations? Is that the way that you would think about it? Or was it.

[Frank Miller]

Well, one thing does lead to another, but most of creative work is problem solving. It's not God is speaking to me. It's, you know, how do I get that nose to look right? You know, it's that sort of thing. And in this case is it was how to get the look I'm after as efficiently as possible.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I won't show it again. I can pull it up on the screen as B roll. But that right hand page, in particular, of that female figure.

[Frank Miller]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And the black kind of left portion of the torso, which is framed with black lining, and the right side, from our perspective, framed with the white. I mean, just the economy, the amount of meaning that is transmitted with such a relatively small amount of ink. I know, it's in some cases a lot of ink.

[Tim Ferriss]

It's a lot of ink.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I know. But in terms of line art work, that is sort of the latticework of the perception. It's just so incredible.

[Frank Miller]

In the early pages in Sin City, there was a lot of line work underneath all that. Toward the end, it was clicking along. Just that was what it was going to be from birth.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Also something that comes to mind, at least for me, in the Japanese way of doing things. And there's a lot of variability, of course, among Japanese artists and so on, but it's very interesting how they apply detail. Right. You might see a ton of detail in a small portion of a panel and then very little on the rest. You might.

[Frank Miller]

I love that.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Right. Or you might see a page.

[Frank Miller]

It's like the more Imari approach.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you might have a page where it's very fast paced, the line work's pretty sparse, and then there's one panel that has a lot of detail. And the beauty, and this comes also up in understanding comics with McLeod, is how much work the brain does really effortlessly between the panels.

[Frank Miller]

Well, it's also to where McCloud was applying McLuhan, because there's a lot of McLuhan thinking in McLeod.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I've been loving the book, so thank you for sending me an early copy. And I can't wait until I can actually export all my highlights because there's so many highlights that I've put into it. And what I want to also emphasize for folks, I really believe this is that if you want to be good at anything, study people who are excellent at something. It does not have to be the same thing you are hoping to pursue. Right. Like if you study Jiro, dreams of Sushi or something like that in an effort to become better at X and aim for the top of your field. That seems totally disparate. There's still so many lessons you can take. And if humans are story making machines and that we often create meaning almost always from stories, then studying your work within the realm of comics and film. Even if someone is not involved explicitly in comics or film, the lessons can still be applied. And I'll be very curious and excited to see how people in industries and areas that may not can't even be guessed at this point will implement some of the life lessons from the book. I'll be very curious to see. It'd be very fun. I have to also mention, and I've wanted you to pronounce this name for me. Well, never thought I would meet you, but since I was a little kid. The Electra that you did that I want to say it was a lot of watercolor artwork. Bill, how do you say his last name?

[Frank Miller]

Sienkiewicz.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Sienkiewicz. Sienkiewicz.

[Frank Miller]

Sienkiewicz.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Sienkiewicz.

[Frank Miller]

No single.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Sinkovich. Okay.

[Frank Miller]

Ishkovich.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Exactly.

[Frank Miller]

Think Russian. Pretend you're Russian. Pretend you're Russian.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

That is a beautiful. That is a beautiful piece of work.

[Frank Miller]

It's pretty amazing.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Amazing. And I don't.

[Frank Miller]

It was a berserk experience for both of us.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Tell me, because that's such a time, yet such a time. A good time.

[Frank Miller]

We were like two 12 year olds just making a crazy God comic. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

What was the experience like and why did you work well together? Maybe that's worth digging into.

[Frank Miller]

Well, first off, we like each other a lot.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Okay. It's a great starting point.

[Frank Miller]

It was one of those times that happened that you live for in that comics had been very restrictive for a very long time. Things like Dark Knight had started busting things open. Watchmen was out and so on. Bill had gone from being the guy who draws like Neal Adams to being more and more this guy who was pulling in Ralph Stedman and doing all this stuff and really becoming his own man. He had just worked with Alan more. He was looking for a much looser kind of arrangement because Alan's a very dominating writer.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Dominating in the sense that he has an idea of how the panel on.

[Frank Miller]

Panel writes a very tight. I mean, he's a clockmaker when he writes a story. Watchmen plays off that constantly. And Bill is bucking bronco. So when Bill and I got together, they just opened Epic Comics at Marvel, back when Marvel was actually trying to loosen up a little bit before it became Marvel again.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

It's easy for people to forget. I mean, Marvel went through some very hard times before the technology caught up sufficiently to end up with Marvel Studios and so on.

[Frank Miller]

No, I'm talking about when Marvel was really trying to bring in the European influences and stuff like that. It was quite an exciting time. Archie Goodwin was running a fascinating division there. I came up with a miniseries, supposed to be four issues, Electra, for Marvel Comics, and Marvel couldn't. When they saw what it was or the script was, they went, this can't be part of Marvel Comics. This is just too goddamn weird. And so it bumped over to the Epic division. Can I give them credit? They didn't just say, we won't do it. And then it went from four issues to eight issues or whatever it was, and the top blew off. I mean, the lid flew off the pot that was on the stove.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

How did you give Bill enough rain as a bucking bronco? Didn't you didn't.

[Frank Miller]

I wrote full script. He just drew over the fucking kid, and I had to pull the whole thing back.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Can you explain what full script means?

[Frank Miller]

A full script is like a screenplay.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

It is, right?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah. Only a little stricter because it tells you what each panel number is and exactly what goes in it and what the captions are.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

So you would send that to Bill and you'd be like, thanks, appreciate the effort.

[Frank Miller]

But just what would come back would be much more abstract and much more daring. Cool.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

But it wouldn't break the clock. It would still work.

[Frank Miller]

It did not say, I wouldn't, like, send him an exploding tank and get back a bunch of tomatoes, because Rolling down the street. No, but it required reinterpretation of my script. And I welcomed it, though, because I.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Thought it sounds fun.

[Frank Miller]

I saw brilliance was happening.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun.

[Frank Miller]

And it's just because of that, though, the excitement grew, and I kept expanding the story because all these unexpected elements that he'd throw in, I want to turn them into characters and stuff. And luckily, Archie Goodwin was along for the ride, and, you know, it was an absolute gas. I love that book.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Oh. I mean, I still have it. I literally still have it on Long Island. Let me ask you a question. It may go. No, this may be a dead end of a question, but I'm Going to ask you anyway. This is a question I often ask as we start to wind towards landing the plane here. If you had a billboard on which you could put anything non commercial, right? Metaphorically, to get a message or something in front of billions of people. Could be a statement, a quote, a word, an image combination. What might you put on that billboard? Does anything come to mind?

[Frank Miller]

Whoa.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

A motto, a mantra, anything?

[Frank Miller]

I'm going to go very broad on this and just say ask every question.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Ask every question. What does that mean to you?

[Frank Miller]

This means that we live in a time of silence. People are leaving things unquestioned, unspoken. And a good bit. It's not a good line. I can't come up with a good one, it seems.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

I think ask every question is pretty good. But we can take a couple bites at the apple if you like.

[Frank Miller]

How about just challenge?

[Tim Ferriss]

Challenge?

[Frank Miller]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Okay. What does that mean to you?

[Frank Miller]

When you are confronted with things that everybody says, be ready to challenge them.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Challenge. Push the wall. Defy the code. If everybody says do X, everybody says you must do Y.

[Frank Miller]

At least. At least they say.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah. Why?

[Frank Miller]

Why is a pretty good one too. You want to go with that?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Why is a good one. I guess they go together. Both of them go together.

[Frank Miller]

Why don't you go why?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Okay.

[Frank Miller]

With the question mark.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Why question mark? Ask, where's the camera? There it is.

[Frank Miller]

Or why has it got to be that way? Why has it got to be that way?

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Why has it got to be that way? They all converge sort of in the same theme.

[Frank Miller]

Just trying to go against an age of pathological conformity.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yes, yes. Often subconscious too. Pathological conformity. Ask the why? Why does it have to be this way? Also with your own thinking. It applies everywhere.

[Frank Miller]

Everywhere.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Yeah, everywhere. Frank, thank you so much. It's great to see you.

[Frank Miller]

This has been a real pleasure, man.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

And everybody. You can find Frank on Instagram rankmillerofficial. The website is frankmillerink.com and you can now. Where's the camera? You can now pre order. So absolutely. Check out Push the My Life Writing, Drawing and the Art of Storytelling. I've been reading it. I'm going to finish it over the next couple of days. I've really been taking a lot of notes. I also took a bunch of notes from this conversation and we will have links to everything that we talked about in the show. Notes as per usual at Tim Blog podcast, Frank Miller will be the only Frank Miller. If you search by name for guest you will find this episode. And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself and ask why? Why? Why? Thanks for tuning in everybody.

[Tim Ferriss]

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off and that is five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between 1 and a half and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field. And then I test them and then I I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. Something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim Blog Friday. Type that into your browser. Tim Blog Friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Sleep is the key to it all.

[Tim Ferriss]

It is the foundation. Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor, Eight Sleep, has improved my sleep with its pod cover. Pod 5 introduces Eight Sleep's latest product, the Blanket, which uses the same technology as the Pods Cover to extend temperature regulation across the entire body. On average, members report the Pod has helped them fall asleep 44% faster, 34% deeper sleep, and given them up to one added hour of sleep each night. Also, the pod's snoring detection and automatic elevating platform have reduced user snoring by 45%. You'll also get a personalized report each morning, allowing you to track your sleep stages, heart rate, variability, respiratory rate, and more, all without having any devices strapped onto you. So head over to 8sleep.com Tim and use code Tim to get $350 off of your very own Pod 5 Ultra. You can try it at home for 30 days and return if you don't like it. Again, that's Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep.com Tim $350 off shipping is available to many countries worldwide. One more time. 8 sleep.com Tim not to be a salty old dog, but in the early 2000s, back in the day when I was running my own e commerce business.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

The tools were atrocious, they tried hard but man was it bad.

[Tim Ferriss]

You had to cobble all sorts of stuff together. I could only dream of a platform like Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and now 10% of all e commerce in the US is on Shopify. Now back to the early 2000s then nobody even thought of AI. Who could have predicted, even in the last 24 months the magic that is.

[Interviewer (likely Tim Ferriss)]

Now possible with AI?

[Tim Ferriss]

Shopify has been ahead of the curve and they are packed with helpful AI tools that will accelerate everything. Write product descriptions, page headlines, even enhance your product photography. Best of all, Shopify expertly handles everything from managing inventory to international shipping, processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Tim one more time shopify.com Tim Tim.