Podcast Summary: The Tim Ferriss Show #835

Guest: Ben Patrick ("KneesOverToesGuy")
Date: November 12, 2025
Theme: Minimalistic, High-Return Lower Body Training, True Rehab, and Operating with Integrity in Business
Host: Tim Ferriss

Episode Overview

This episode welcomes Ben Patrick—known widely as "Knees Over Toes Guy"—whose viral approach to knee health, lower body mobility, and power has revolutionized modern training and rehab. Tim and Ben dissect Ben’s physical transformation from “Old Man” in high school to dunking 42 inches, examine core exercise protocols (including 20-minute workouts), discuss lessons from legendary coach Charles Poliquin, and dig deep on business and personal integrity.
A companion video of Tim and Ben training together is referenced ([YouTube, Ben’s Instagram]).

Key Moments and Takeaways

Ben Patrick’s Transformation: From Chronic Pain to Elite Performance

Ben’s Early Pain and Surgeries

• Nicknamed “Old Man” in high school due to severe stiffness and chronic pain by age 12; required two knee surgeries by 18, including partial kneecap replacement and a meniscus transplant ([03:01–04:30]).
• After surgeries, left with even worse pain in his right knee, dependent on painkillers, and in a “dark place” ([05:10]).

Turning Point—Charles Poliquin & The Paradigm Shift

• Inspired by Poliquin’s contrarian approach: Training knees to safely go over toes, overturning the “keep shins vertical” dogma ([06:07–06:39]).
• “...if someone walked backward up a hill to rehab rather than going down the hill...that was what I felt like, okay, I can get off the painkillers now.” – Ben ([07:14])
• Key corrective: Backwards sled dragging—simple, scalable, and highly therapeutic ([06:39–10:50]).
• Ben’s story: One week after integrating backward sled work, could get off painkillers for the first time in years ([11:07–11:12]).

Debunking Exercise Myths & Explaining “Knees Over Toes”

Why “Don’t Let Your Knees Go Past Your Toes” Is Flawed

• Historical context: 1970s research misunderstood increased knee force as “bad,” led to decades of restricted mobility training ([06:39–07:14]).
• Real life: “Stepping down stairs…you’re loading your knee over your toes every step.” – Ben ([07:03])
• Poliquin’s core teaching: “Strength is gained in the range it is trained.” – Tim quoting Poliquin ([16:45])

Safety & Efficacy of Sled Work

• Example: Ben’s 71-year-old mother attempting to drag a 1,000 lb sled. She couldn’t move it, but there was no injury risk—the load is only proportional to what can be moved ([12:12–12:22]).
• Backwards sled work is “nearly impossible to do wrong and hard to hurt yourself.” – Tim ([09:12])

Minimalist, High-Return Lower Body Programming

Essentials of the ATG System

1. Backward and Forward Sled Work
   • Gentle, effective, “insurance policy” for the knees and lower body ([06:39–10:50], [61:27–61:28]).
2. Full Range of Motion Squatting (with pain-free progressions)
   • Heels-elevated, holding weight out front for counterbalance ([18:23–22:22]).
   • Elevating the heels, holding weight forward, and pausing at the bottom are all effective strategies ([20:29–21:35]).
   • “I do think it would be a common sense goal for everyone to be able to hold a kettlebell and squat all the way down without pain.” – Ben ([21:35])
3. Split Squats & The ATG Split Squat
   • Front foot elevated split squat is intuitive, scalable, and safe for developing knees-over-toes strength ([22:22–25:19]).
   • Even Ben’s mother used basic stair rails and steps to progress as a septuagenarian ([25:10–25:19]).
4. Tibialis (“Tib”) Training for Shin & Ankle Strength
   • Inspired by Bob Gaida and the “tib bar” for anterior shin training; now popularized through Ben’s efforts ([40:34–43:26]).
   • No-equipment version: Against a wall, heels out, raising toes up and alternating sides ([43:26–43:37]).

Progression & Principles

• “My starting system is one to two sets. And then I found for myself one to two sets I can maintain great…” – Ben ([53:48])
• “The program you stick with is the best program.” – Tim ([57:53])
• “You can always scale down.” – Tim ([53:48])
• Efficiency emphasized: Ben only trains twice a week for 45 minutes and can still dunk ([58:34–58:48], [65:24–65:41]).

Favorite Lower Body Movements for Any Age

• Top three per Ben’s mom: Backward sled, full range split squat, posterior-chain work (back extension machine) ([28:41–29:43]).

Influences: Charles Poliquin, Westside Barbell, and More

Charles Poliquin’s Lasting Lessons

• “His only regret was not getting into flexibility sooner.” – Ben ([30:23])
• Poliquin’s relentless curiosity—learned languages, visited world experts, always credited sources ([35:29–36:06]).
• Ben: “What mattered was strength and flexibility in harmony—feeling strong in deep ranges.” ([31:41])

Borrowed Wisdom from Powerlifting and Bodybuilding Legends

• Backwards sled work: Learned from Louis Simmons (Westside Barbell), who borrowed it from Finnish powerlifters (who dragged trees for a day job) ([36:42–38:11]).
• Tibialis work: From Bob Gaida, who turned away from bodybuilding—importance of shin muscle strength for pain-free movement ([39:10–43:26]).

Minimal Effective Dose: Less Is More

• “You don’t have to do an hour of strength + an hour of flexibility… Not needed for most people.” – Tim ([32:41])
• Tim’s favorite high-yield: Sled work, ATG split squat, minimalist deadlift protocols ([61:27–64:41]).
• 2 x 45-min weekly sessions, 1 game per week, plus daily movement/sport (Ben's formula) ([65:24–66:01]).

Integrity, Business, and Audience Trust

Building a Sustainable, Integrity-Driven Business and Reputation

• Ben credits Tim for maintaining massive influence without clickbait, drama, or bashing others, and asks for Tim’s underlying philosophy ([68:57–70:05]).
• Tim: “With a great audience…comes great responsibility. If you make a recommendation that costs someone time, money, or God forbid…causes injury, you’re done. You are dead to that person, and for good reason.” ([76:37])
• Tim details his refusal to “sell out” on supplements that would compromise objectivity, even at the cost of huge revenue ([82:27–82:54]).
• “As soon as there’s a question, you’ve lost the trust. And as soon as there is a seed of doubt, it is very hard to reclaim.” – Tim ([84:49])
• Ben: “You would have made a great supplement line… but the integrity point would have been out. That’s what I find remarkable.” ([83:49])

On Scaling Good Habits & Business with Integrity

• Tim and Ben both discuss the compounding effect of 2% improvements over time—applies to both business values and training ([89:04–90:42]).
• “Enough is enough at some point…to live an amazing life is much less than most people realize.” – Tim ([90:42])
• Ben and his wife work to make all their equipment in the USA, even if it’s slower/harder ([89:04–90:42]).

Notable Quotes

• “Strength is gained in the range it is trained.” – Tim Ferriss quoting Charles Poliquin ([16:45])
• “If I continue to optimize for attention and money, I’ll start chasing extremes. And when you wear a mask long enough, you become the mask.” – Tim Ferriss ([76:37])
• “My starting system is one to two sets.” – Ben Patrick ([53:48])
• “I do think it would be a common sense goal for everyone to be able to hold a kettlebell and squat all the way down without pain.” – Ben Patrick ([21:35])
• “The program you stick with is the best program.” – Tim Ferriss ([57:53])
• “I also don’t want to spend any time having to rehab stuff. And knock on wood, it’s 12 years now, no knee or back problems.” – Ben Patrick ([58:30])
• “Don’t overestimate the value of the dollars in your bank account and don’t underestimate the value of having a consistent reputation for being trustworthy.” – Tim Ferriss ([84:49])

Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Ben’s background / pain and “old man” nickname | 03:01–04:05 | | Poliquin’s influence / Sled work | 06:07–10:50 | | How Ben got off painkillers | 11:07–11:12 | | Deep squats & overcoming mobility deficits | 18:23–22:22 | | Split squats (why, how, safety) | 22:22–25:19 | | Ben’s family: mom’s story & favorite exercises | 25:52–29:43 | | Minimal sets, minimal workouts, sticking with basics | 53:48–54:48 | | Poliquin’s regret on flexibility | 30:23 | | Westside Barbell & origins of backwards sled pulls | 36:42–38:11 | | Tibialis training / origin of “Tib bar” | 39:10–43:26 | | Tim’s business philosophy on integrity | 76:37–84:49 | | Compounding habits in business and life | 89:04–90:42 |

Additional Resources, Exercises, and Where to Find More

• Companion Videos: YouTube.com/timferriss and @kneesovertoesguy Instagram pinned post for exercise demonstrations.
• ATG Workouts & Equipment: Visit Ben’s YouTube and Instagram
• “Minimalistic workout program with sets and reps”: Ben’s recent video, the best starting point (search by title).
• Recommended Reading:
  • Knee Ability Zero by Ben Patrick
  • The 4-Hour Body by Tim Ferriss

Summary: Who This Episode Is For

Anyone seeking:

• Joint pain relief, injury prevention, or athletic rehab
• Minimal, time-efficient but high-yield strength training
• Honest, evidence-driven training approaches
• Foundational business and life lessons on integrity and trust

Ben and Tim provide actionable advice, real stories, and the underlying mindset shifts that have helped thousands fix pain, get strong, and play the long game—in the gym and in business.