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The Tim Ferriss Show
#853: Jordan Jonas, Champion of Alone — The Art of Survival, Lessons from Nomadic Tribes, Hardship as the Path to Peace, How to Handle Rogue Wolverines, and Why Not to Photograph Attacking Bears
02:26:06
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- [00:00]
Tim Ferriss
Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers, people who are incredibly good, possibly the best in the world at what they do. My guest today is Jordan Jonas. I spent a week in the woods with Jordan with a few of my closest friends doing survival training. And all of my friends said you have to have Jordan on the podcast. So here we are. Who is Jordan? Jordan grew up on a farm in Idaho, rode freight trains across the US Hence his Instagram obojordo. Spent time in remote Russian villages, fur trapped and traveled for years with nomads in Siberia and won Alone Season 6, one of the few reality TV shows that I actually watch because you learn so much. And he won that after being the first contestant to truly thrive in the wilderness, in this case in the Arctic for 77 days and harvest big game. It's a crazy story. We get into it. He now leads people from all over the world, including yours truly and all walks of life, extraordinary outdoor adventures, facilitating once in a lifetime wilderness expeditions, hunts, family adventures and team building events. He has a wife and three children and focuses on living life to its fullest with them. And that's the truth. I have spent time with them and Jordan is a model for living the good life, not overcomplicating, focusing on the things that truly matter, the critical few over the trivial many. And I've learned a lot from Jordan and I think you can too. Perfect timing for the dogs to have a spaz attack with that. Please enjoy this conversation with Jordan Jonas and be sure to check him out at Jordan Jonas. J O R--A-N J-O-N-A-Com and on Instagram and YouTube. Hobo. That's H O B O Jordo. J O R D O. Thanks for listening. Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question now?
- [02:04]
Jordan Jonas
It's in a perfect time.
- [02:06]
Tim Ferriss
What if I did the opposite? Cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. Jordan, great to see you, man.
- [02:21]
Jordan Jonas
Good to see you, Tim. Good to see you.
- [02:22]
Tim Ferriss
And we've upgraded our interaction to in person because for those who are listening, we had some audio glitches, some technological woes and we just decided to do it in person. So here we are. And I have twice the number of pooches, meaning two versus one since you last saw me. Got a stray, adopted A few days ago. We're also drinking what people might think are ridiculously heavy pours of whiskey. But this is not whiskey. This is Lake Missoula Tea Company. Lake Missoula breakfast. It is delicious. Just a bit of caffeine, a little bit of a topper, let's call it.
- [02:59]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, we just both arrived at some city we're not from at high altitude and.
- [03:05]
Tim Ferriss
And we're just getting back into the groove of the conversation. So we are going to get to Russia. But first I wanted you to. And these tie together, I suppose, explain what we have here on the table besides the tea, because you made the joke. If the interview is not going very well, might as well have this.
- [03:25]
Jordan Jonas
I'm going to point the handle this way.
- [03:26]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah, the handle is pointed towards you. What are we looking at?
- [03:30]
Jordan Jonas
What we're looking at is an X. It's one I've kind of designed specifically using the knowledge and experience I have had in Siberia in particular with the native folks and such. So it's got some unique features, some that I've really grown to love. So in the forest, first off, just to set the foundation, the one tool you need is an ax to give yourself a chance at survival.
- [03:58]
Tim Ferriss
More than a knife.
- [03:59]
Jordan Jonas
More than a knife, you can do all the things you can do with a knife. You can get through. You know, you could get a fire, you can build some traps, you can get through the ice. You can, you know, it just kind of gives you the ability to do everything. Maybe not as well as you want, but as the natives would say, the want until you need is an ax. And I concur. So the problem though is that a lot of people in the States don't know what a good ax is. And so you'll go buy one at Lowe's and go home. It just doesn't do the job you need. So I designed one that has all the features I like. It's kind of a Siberian axe head shape with some of the Evenki modifications.
- [04:37]
Tim Ferriss
Even the native are.
- [04:39]
Jordan Jonas
The native nomadic folks that I lived with, they live in the woods all the time. So they kind of know what they like. So some of the features of this axe in particular, most interestingly is it's sharpened from one side.
- [04:51]
Tim Ferriss
It's like a single bevel.
- [04:53]
Jordan Jonas
It's a single bevel grind, which means you have to have a right or a left handed axe based on what you are. But what that allows you to do is when you're in the woods, very often you'll be carving things, you know, whether you're building a sleigh or building a trap or building whatever it might be, and it really helps it work as a planer and really helps it do accurate work that way. It also, on most trees that you chop down in the woods, they're quite narrow. You're rarely chopping down a giant, you know, cedar tree. You're going to be chopping down things about the size of your arm. And couple swings with this bevel design and you can slice right through them.
- [05:30]
Tim Ferriss
Assuming it is matched to your dominant hand. Right, exactly. So that it's sticking instead of deflecting.
- [05:36]
Jordan Jonas
Exactly, exactly. So if you picture a bevel and hitting against the tree, if it's ground off on that side, there's a bit of a deflection. And by grinding it from the opposite side, when it hits that tree, it just bites right in.
- [05:51]
Tim Ferriss
I guess you have some experience with deflection.
- [05:53]
Jordan Jonas
Deflection. Yes, we do. And yeah, just to finalize a few last points, you'll notice on a lot of American axes, they have a narrow eye.
- [06:02]
Tim Ferriss
And can you describe the eye? The eye is basically, if you had the axe, what would you call it? Blade. Right there is the hole through which the handle would fit.
- [06:11]
Jordan Jonas
On a Siberian axe, it's quite wide, which allows you in the field to repair it with a solid piece of wood. And you can slide the handle through a like a tomahawk from the top. The handle goes all the way on. That way, when you swing, the pressure is always tightening the head. You don't need wedges and all that, which is a cool design. There's a bunch of other little nuances to the design. I don't want to bore you too long, but Tim knows he's been up in the woods with me and we got to use it a bunch. I got to show him how to use.
- [06:40]
Tim Ferriss
It's incredible how versatile an ax is. I mean, the number of ways that you used it. Also, just side note, I never really thought about this, but for people who are wondering about this bevel description that I gave, you could think of. There are certain chef's knives, especially Western chef's knives, that are double beveled. They're sharpened from both sides in. So if you buy a cheap knife sharpener, it generally looks like a V. Right. You're sharpening it from both sides. But if you look at a lot of Japanese chef's knives, single bevel, given the way they use it in cutting fish kind of horizontally. And I recall seeing you when we first went out our first day in the wilderness in Montana. And just a quick sidebar, one of my friends, because the forecast looks fantastic. It was a bluebird day. And he's like. It was his first time going out on a real camping trip. And he's like, I think I might just leave the rain gear at the rental spot. And I was like, that is the last thing you would just put at the bottom. Stick it somewhere. And then it was torrential downpour. We got hammered. And even though it wasn't particularly cold, you end up feeling cold very, very quickly. And when we arrived at, I suppose, the first camp, which maybe was sort of a premature stop because of the cold and the rain.
- [08:03]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it was pretty chilly.
- [08:04]
Tim Ferriss
And it was incredible how quickly, number one, my friend Mike and I both were having trouble zippering our jackets, even though it was not even winter. And then watching you use the ax to. Maybe you could describe this, but when you take a larger stick, people think of fire building and they think of perhaps having the fatwood, and then you have some type of cotton ball or tinder. But when you're out in the woods, you don't necessarily. Sure, you could pack these things, but if you're improvising. What blew me away was how you use the axe to create feathers.
- [08:44]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah.
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Tim Ferriss
Can you explain what that is?
- [08:45]
Jordan Jonas
You want a really sharp axe. Once you get control of it, you know they're dangerous. We'll go to the deflection stories. But once you're a master of the axe, you can go in a downpour, torrential downpour, chop down a dead standing tree. Because you might see dead trees on the ground, but it's amazing, particularly in the spring when they've spent a whole winter absorbing moisture, it's amazing how wet they will be. And so dead standing. Find something, chop it down and then split it. You know, chop it a smaller piece out of the middle and then split that open. And once you got it split open, you're to that dry wood, and it never gets wet because it was standing. And so you then split that piece open a couple times. You get a nice edge on it. And then with the axe, you can just run your ax down that wood with the right amount of control and practice, and make some really fine curls that'll catch a spark. So you don't even need a lighter or you don't need anything like that.
- [09:41]
Tim Ferriss
What was also counterintuitive to me is you don't even have to take those off of the split piece of this internal wood.
- [09:50]
Jordan Jonas
Easier if you don't. It's Easier to leave a big bundle of this curl.
- [09:53]
Tim Ferriss
So imagine, imagine guys, if you would you have. Let's just for simplicity's sake, right, say that you have a fully intact log of wood that's about the thickness of your arm. You then. And there are very particular ways to do this safely, right? Like leaning it against a larger fallen tree.
- [10:15]
Jordan Jonas
There's a lot of nuance.
- [10:16]
Tim Ferriss
There's a lot of nuance, but you split that in half. So now you have, if you're looking kind of down the barrel of each of these split pieces, they're half circles. And then you break those into, you chop those into even quarters, let's say. Then you stand one up and you're using the ax, which takes a lot of fine motor control to kind of shave down these thin pieces of wood that then curl as you're pushing it down. And then you go a little bit higher, you do the same thing. You do it again, you do it again. You end up with all of these. It almost looks like a fiddlehead fern or something where they're all rolled together.
- [10:52]
Jordan Jonas
In fire making too, in survival in the woods, it's great to have a lighter, it's great to have matches. They all make it so much easier to start a fire. But they'll occasionally fail you and they'll fail you when you need them the most. And so I always carry also just a ferro rod, which is, you know, it just makes sparks. Basically you scrape it and it makes sparks. But with that you need a fine paper thin material to catch the sparks and light it up. And that's what you're making with the axe curls. And so we were in a big downpour, you know, and even that can be difficult because when it's really raining, you know, you got to be really careful that you've made all these curls that they don't get soaked before you get the spark on them. So we made a quick tripod, draped a tarp over it and tucked under that to actually build our fire. Made a few sparks and got that burning. You can then make some not so fine curls, make some really quick rough ones and throw that on top, it catches and pretty soon you have a fire. Which is amazing how life giving it is in those situations.
- [11:51]
Tim Ferriss
Everybody's depressed and wet, particularly like soaking wet, hands aren't really functioning. And then the fire, once you get a critical mass and you're able to warm your hands, you know, my buddy Mike, I remember, he said, he's like, yeah, no wonder we've worshiped fire for so long obvious. All right, so this axe, and I'm thrilled to have one of these. And we'll put up an additional shorter video on my YouTube channel, which is just Tim Ferriss. What is your YouTube channel?
- [12:21]
Jordan Jonas
Hobo Jordo, actually.
- [12:23]
Tim Ferriss
And we will explain why I have.
- [12:25]
Jordan Jonas
A Instagram at that too, which put videos up on.
- [12:28]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah, so we'll put up some videos of the axe and maybe have you demo some of the more non obvious ways of using it before we get to the rewind. And looking at how on earth you ended up in Russia, let's not let go of the loose end of the deflection story. So what does it look like if you get over enthusiastic and you don't quite have the control yet?
- [12:52]
Jordan Jonas
An axe has a learning curve, especially when you have a really well made ax and you're swinging it hard to get the jobs you need done. Done. When I did go to Russia, I was a little in over my head. Like I had grown up on a farm and used an axe more than probably your typical American, but not like they do over there by any means.
- [13:11]
Tim Ferriss
And so, I mean, these axes are. They're sharper than most kitchen knives you would find in an Airbnb. I mean, like, they're very, very sharp.
- [13:20]
Jordan Jonas
Yep. And so they just use them in a way more than I would. And I was trying to keep up, you know, I'm trying to be productive. And in doing so, I was in a hurry. So this is going to take a slight bit of a backstory, but the natives over there will build these huge 30 kilometer circumference fences out of only logs interlocking. They have no nails, nothing up there because they're none around. And so there's a specific technique to doing that partly that involves chopping a tree down and then you set your foot on it and then you split that tree on that cut end, you know, so you're taking a big swing and swinging right where your foot sort of is. And that tree is not flat like it was cut with a saw. It's got an angle like it was cut with an axe. And so there's a real deflection possibility there if you don't have all the. If you don't have it down. And so I'm trying to keep up smack hitting my boot. And, you know, we're in the middle of Siberia, I can't get another rubber boot. We're working in swamps. It was very disappointing. Went home, had a cut on my foot. You know, back to home, which is a teepee we had a cut on my foot, kind of bandaged it up, and tried to patch my boot as best I could, Go back out next day, same thing. And make a long story short, I chopped the heck out and then boots. And then finally one of the native guys was like, hey, you know what, Jordan? I think five years ago, I left a boot upside down on a stump, like, you know, five miles that way. And so we spent a whole day. We got our reindeer, packed them up, rode these reindeer up and over the mountain. Sure enough, there's a stump with a boot upside down on. And these are natural rubber boots. And so I could, like. It was smaller than my foot, but I could squeeze my foot in there. And I'm like, great. This is awesome. Back at it another day or two. And swing. I chopped it. And I was so frustrated, it was annoying that I cut my boot open. I got mad, and I swung with one hand at the tree. And then here comes deflect, you know, deflects off and rips right into my knee. And I hammered my knee in the long run. I went and got a checked out many months later. But it was, you know, I mostly severed the mcl, split the bone. It was a quite a gnarly injury. And I. I was stuck out there. I had to crawl back to the teepee. I knew I was kind of in shock, so I was like, I got to get back to the teepee before I feel this, which was a couple kilometers away. So I kind of just bailed out, told everybody, like, I'm going back to tp. And then I got there, and, man, it was a lot of pain. I had had surgery on my other knee not long before, so that was my good leg. I chopped and then. And I was stuck in that teepee for several days. I couldn't even move. I had to, like, even to poop. I had a plastic bag. I had to, like, go in that and then roll to the edge of the teepee and stuff it out. I couldn't even stand on either leg. It was pretty miserable. And they were out building that fence. So it was a few days later they finally came back and. And I was still recovering on the TV floor.
- [16:08]
Tim Ferriss
What did you do? Or what did they do in terms of quote, unquote, first aid? They're like, here's a. Here's a poultice made of God knows what. Slap it on, walk it off. You'll be fine.
- [16:18]
Jordan Jonas
Which is mostly what it was. It was a very simple. We went over to a spruce tree that was bleeding a bunch of SAP out, you know, and went over there and scraped a bunch of that SAP off with the ax and then just put that on my wound. This is right at the start, right when I got it, packed the wound with that SAP, then I went back and shockingly enough, we're out in the woods in the dirt and the rusty ax or whatever, it never got infected at all. Healed up as best it could a few days later. When they came back, Andre, one of the native guys, brought me a little cane he carved for me, which was nice. And so in the next couple days I caned around and then, you know, got to where I could get back out on the fence again and help out. But it was quite a lesson. You know, that was my first time with him and yeah, I was in over my head a little bit. High learning curve.
- [17:07]
Tim Ferriss
That's a memorable lesson.
- [17:09]
Jordan Jonas
Memorable lesson. I was pretty miserable in that teepee for a few days.
- [17:17]
Tim Ferriss
Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Creatine isn't just for muscle. It's essential daily fuel for your brain, your body and long term performance. For me, I have Alzheimer's and dementia risk in my family, the cognitive benefits are the reason I take creatine every single day. And today's episode sponsor, Momentous is the gold standard in creatine. There's a lot of BS floating around, but I choose them. Why? Because they source creapure creatine, the purest, most effective creatine monohydrate available. So if you've been curious about creatine, this is your moment to get back on track or try it for the first time. Momentous is also now introducing the Momentous Creatine Chews. Each chew delivers one gram of pure creapure creatine monohydrate. I was skeptical of these chews. I was like, I'm never going to use these. It turns out that I use them all the time. They're super convenient and they are NSF certified for sports. So you get the gold standard purity without all the Mess. Head to livemomentous.com and use code TIM for up to 35% off of your first order. Folks, tax season is upon us. Fun, fun, fun. It always has a way of forcing us to look at our finances whether we want to or not. And if you're dreading that moment, it's a lot to pull together. There are ways to make your finances easier and far less stressful. Today's sponsor, Monarch, is the all in one personal finance tool. It's used by a bunch of my friends. It's used by my employees. Designed make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. One person on my team has tried four other budgeting apps, said linking everything together on Monarch was by far the easiest. Another said, to be honest, and I'm quoting directly here, to be honest, the widgets are the most helpful thing for me because I can see shopping, food, and big expenses all on my screen without having to open the app. And then she gives the reason. I often forget about when things like car payments are happening. And now I know not to go overboard at Target or something like that. Right? So it makes it visible, easy to grasp. And in their 2025 survey, eight out of 10 members said monarch helps them feel more in control of their finances. Monarch has helped users save more than $200 per month on average. You can also share your Monarch account with a partner or financial advisor at no extra charge. And seven out of 10 members say it's improved financial conversations in their relationship. This is true for my employees as well as couples being on the same page. So set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch. Check it out. Use code TIM@monarch.com for half off of your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code TIM. So it sounds like you got close to quite a few of the locals. Can you describe? Hopefully this is enough of a cue. You told me about this when we were out in the woods in the mountains, but it involves. I picked up a few Russian words on this trip, and I think one of them was durak. Right. So if that's enough of a cue in terms of warm welcome, what was your first arrival like?
- [20:27]
Jordan Jonas
This is probably 2005 or 6. I was heading over to Russia the first time and didn't know what to expect. But we land in the Moscow airport, and instead of having a bus or something come up to our airplane, it was like a farm tractor, this blue farm tractor and a wooden trailer. And I was like, no way. Get off the plane. And we're climbing into this trailer. So of course I took a picture and this officer standing over there, durak, which means like, idiot. No, the first greeting of Russia came over to my phone, made me delete it, and welcome to Russia. And then. So that was fitting, I guess.
- [21:06]
Tim Ferriss
It's not that different from how you.
- [21:09]
Jordan Jonas
Would probably get treated at jfk taking pictures. Fair enough. Fair enough. A Little bit of cultural ignorance.
- [21:18]
Tim Ferriss
All right, so let's go back then to the impetus, the catalyst, just as a skeletal backstory that we're going to dive into. But where did you grow up?
- [21:28]
Jordan Jonas
I grew up in Idaho, on a farm in North Idaho for the most part.
- [21:34]
Tim Ferriss
Did you grow up learning Russian from family members, then studying in school and then going to Russia?
- [21:40]
Jordan Jonas
No, I never had any particular. Never thought particularly a lot about Russia, although I was really into history. And so I had read about a lot about World War II, Russian war memoirs, you know, all this I had read and really was impacted by the Gulag Archipelago. So I had a familiarity with Russia, but it was never a destination that I had thought about and, you know, lived a fairly typical beginning to life. Got a job when I was 13, worked, worked, worked. And then when I was about 18, my brother invited me to ride freight trains, so that kind of sent me on.
- [22:15]
Tim Ferriss
So we're going to skip forward from there and come back to Y.
- [22:19]
Jordan Jonas
Let's do it.
- [22:20]
Tim Ferriss
Hobo Jordo.
- [22:22]
Jordan Jonas
Exactly.
- [22:23]
Tim Ferriss
So what on earth happened that led to actually getting on a plane?
- [22:30]
Jordan Jonas
I grew up in a Christian household, and I had seen the fruit of that path in my life. I'd seen in people around me, my family history. You know, I really valued it and it was really meaningful to me. But as I was, you know, a teenager and growing up had a lot of questions that I hadn't had satisfactorily answered. And so I found myself, although I really valued Christianity and saw it as very good, I found myself in a place where I was struggling to connect with it on any level. And so I was in a fairly dark place as a young man there. And I remember at that time I had read this particular verse, and it basically said, he who follows the path of righteousness and is in the darkness. Continue. And that struck me at the time because, like, okay, there's people that try to do the right thing and are still in darkness and that, so that's okay. But it didn't answer a lot of the questions I had. And I didn't want to bulldoze it all because I had seen that it was good and I also knew I was young.
- [23:32]
Tim Ferriss
What do you mean by bulldoze it?
- [23:33]
Jordan Jonas
Well, I didn't want to take my faith and Christianity and everything that it meant and just say, this is. Yeah, I'm going to discard it and go my own way. As a 18 year old.
- [23:43]
Tim Ferriss
What types of questions did you have?
- [23:45]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, they were actually fairly simple. And this goes to the next answer. But I had my two main questions. Was one, like, surely the earth is not 6,000 years old? And then two was now. I just had a hard time matching up Old Testament ethics with Christ's message, and I just didn't know how to do those things. And so I had a lot of what I would call cultural baggage. There's a lot of baggage with my faith, but because I recognize it as good, I was like, I'm going to try to stick with it, but I have to separate the baby from the bathwater. And that's kind of a daunting task because it's kind of a lifelong journey of faith. But I was given a great boost by the fact that actually Jesus did. He said in one part of the New Testament, he says to give a summary, but what's the point of the law and the prophets? Like, what is all this for? And he says, love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. So I was shocked when I read it, because I was like, wow, wait a second. He takes all the bathwater and throws it out for you and leaves you the baby. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. That was the whole point of the law and the prophets and everything else. And so I didn't have to figure everything else out at the time. And I was okay with seeing if that would play out. Like I said, I'd seen enough fruit that I didn't want to bulldoze it.
- [25:08]
Tim Ferriss
What kind of fruit had you seen for yourself?
- [25:11]
Jordan Jonas
My mom, for one, was a real woman of faith. And we'd always had single moms come over and live at the house. And she would always work to give gifts to Christmas gifts to prisoners, children that are out, you know, always had her acting in the world, in love, and in my own life as a young man, you know, you got this thing, this ideal that's pushing against your natural lust and this and that, you know, it kind of throws a wrench into your natural tendencies, whether that be to anger or to, you know, it overlays your life with a love ideal. And I saw that as good. And so I chose at that time, with those two bits of information that continue even in the darkness, and that I can put everything else on pause. The only thing I need to accept or not accept is love the Lord, that core. And I was like, I'm okay with accepting that. And then I had this really deep prayer that someday I just wish I had the faith to match. But I didn't actually know if I per se believed it. I just knew that I'm going to do it anyway. So in that time I was also traveling and going to New York and going to Virginia and running all around. And I had heard of this opportunity to go to Russia and build an orphanage. So that was the first thought of Russia. And again it was the distant. And I didn't think much of it, but I did pray. Well, if you want me to go, Lord, you don't have to give me a sign because I don't have any reason to go. And then I went to New York. I was kind of a flippant prayer, I think. I went to New York and met a Russian there and she had offered to give me Russian lessons because, you know, the topic came up and I did. And I don't know what it was, but I think it was maybe either putting a face to a vague idea or a act of God or whatever you want to call it. But for some reason it hit me really emotionally. Like I would went back to the. My apartment there, my sister's apartment, and just would cry like, oh man, I felt like a heavy burden for. It wasn't even directed at her. It was directed at this vague idea of going. And I couldn't tell even at the time I was like, I couldn't quite explain it, but it could be explicable. But also I could just accept it as the kick that I prayed for. And so I kind of did. And again, I still didn't have the faith to match. Then I remember going. I was like, okay, I'm going to go. Take it as an answer. I bought a ticket for a year and headed over to. I didn't even really know where. And there was a guy over there, Justice Walker, awesome dude. He was getting heading up that orphanage building project. And so that was my only connection. And then I remember on the train I was like, it was hard for me to go because I had like a girl I had a crush on and all these. I wanted to pursue my education and maybe become an officer in the Marines. You know, all these things I had ideas for. And then I was on this train and had given all that up, like on the Trans Siberian Rail, chugging across. And I remember just like, lord, if I could have one thing someday, give me faith to match my willingness to sacrifice. So that was my kick into Russia kind of open ended. And I just had one thing I was grasping, like, love your neighbor as yourself. Let me see if I can implement this in the world in Whatever place I am, I wasn't trying to per se do anything other than that.
- [28:32]
Tim Ferriss
Tell me if this is a fair read. I've often said to myself and to other people and I absolutely borrowed it from someone else. I did not come up with this, but the general maxim that it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. So act as if.
- [28:54]
Jordan Jonas
Act as if. That's very much so. And I think particularly when you're dealing with something like apathy or love or how do you relate in the world. One thing that was clear is like, oh well actually it's an action and so we're going to do this. You can't be stagnant in that orientation. But I think that's a good summary. Yes.
- [29:16]
Tim Ferriss
How did you go from orphanage to Evenki?
- [29:22]
Jordan Jonas
I went over to help Justyce Walker build this orphanage and that was neat, but it was just me. And he needed a lot of groundwork laid and wells dug. But he eventually had a crew lined up that was going to come over and actually frame the thing and put the thing up and do all that. So I was there kind of doing the groundwork. We dug a well and did all this stuff, but it was still pretty preliminary. And I was there for a few months. Really enjoyed being in Russia, but I was just struck by the fact that I actually really want to live with Russians. And so I told that to justice and he was like, well, let's call a neighboring village. He called him up and the guy was like, whoa, yeah, absolutely, send the American over. My wife's in the hospital and I need someone to watch my kids.
- [30:12]
Tim Ferriss
How long had you been there at that point?
- [30:14]
Jordan Jonas
Three months, I would guess.
- [30:15]
Tim Ferriss
How much Russian did you speak at that point?
- [30:17]
Jordan Jonas
Very little. Very little. Like I was trying to pick it up. But that was part of the problem is justice was so much. He was one of the most well read people I've ever been with. So it's so fun to just talk to him.
- [30:27]
Tim Ferriss
And it's a lot easier than working on your ABCs.
- [30:30]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, exactly. And so I was not doing it to the. And when you first go to a country you're so struck by how much you can communicate through non verbally and then you all of a sudden hit a wall. Okay. I wanted to get past that as fast as possible. So I went to that little village and was fully immersed in a Siberian village life right there. Yeah, it was pretty funny because I hadn't dealt with kids before or anything like that. Yur had to go back to his lumber mill job. And so he was big Russian dude, you know that big handshake. Oh, so glad you're here and showed me around. And here's the kids, five year old boy and a two year old girl. You know, introduce, have some tea. Then the next day he's already off to work. He'd pointed me where the grocery store is and so I was in the deep end trying to take care of these two kids. I'd never done that before grocery shop for him. I didn't even know the language. And that was my splash into Russia proper, I guess, in that regards.
- [31:29]
Tim Ferriss
And then how do you get into reindeer territory?
- [31:32]
Jordan Jonas
Oh yeah, so these guys, these guys that all Yura had been to prison before. And who was that? Sorry, the Russian guy.
- [31:42]
Tim Ferriss
The guy with the big guy live with?
- [31:43]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, the big Russian and his neighbor was named, was Eager and he had also been to prison. And these are all guys in Siberia with pretty storied pasts. But they really enjoyed having me over there for when I was like really trying to just work hard. And it was so random for them to have an American that they would kind of tug of war me back between their two houses.
- [32:09]
Tim Ferriss
Pet American.
- [32:10]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it was. They both became like families to me. You know, they both had kids and both a lot of fun in different ways, but eager. The second family there had been in prison with a native fur trapper from the far north. And they were really close because they'd like found God in prison together and this and that. And so he was always telling me, you got to go north and meet my fur trapping buddy. So after that year of living in Russia, right at the end of it, Yurik the trapper came through town to sell furs and we met and he invited me up to live with him. So I was like, yeah, I'm going to go home to America, renew my visa, earn some money and then I'll come back. And so I went back and headed straight north, more or less. And then I was in even more over my head.
- [32:59]
Tim Ferriss
So what was the first day like when you land? First day, first week when you land in the far north. This is in Siberia proper.
- [33:09]
Jordan Jonas
Well, we've been in Siberia the whole time, but it was just incrementally further north in kind of central Siberia.
- [33:16]
Tim Ferriss
How cold does it get in the far northernmost?
- [33:19]
Jordan Jonas
Well, the far north where I would end up being with the nomads, it'd get to negative 58, negative 60s, kind of the cutoff. But Chilly. First getting to the north. It's funny. Well, one thing I was struck by honestly when I got to Russia was there's a lot of drinking. Every bit. I went further north every time. I would get used to it at one place. I remember driving in a village. In the first village I was with justice. And we're just cruising along on a cold winter day in the bus and it swerves around this guy laying in the road, but we're out in the middle of nowhere. I was like, whoa, it's cold out, we're gonna stop. And the lady across from me and I could make out with my bad Russian, she's like, ah, he's a drunk, he's dead. I was like, whoa. And so I was kind of intense, but you kind of recalibrate at the new norm. And when I went to the next northern village, it restruck me again. I was like, oh, there's chaos. And that first week was that because I was with Yura and he was showing me around and you know, we go to this first house and I mean, I think even. It might have been even on the way from the airport, but pick up some random drunk guy and he like holds up his phone, listen to this. And just his wife just chewing him out and cussing him out. He's like, that's the fury of a Russian woman. Because he's been missing for who knows how long.
- [34:43]
Tim Ferriss
Let's see, how can I summarize some of what we were talking about at dinner last night? Correct me if I get anything wrong. In the Evenki, you have these sustenance, hunters, trappers, et cetera, with encyclopedic knowledge and wherewithal.
- [35:01]
Jordan Jonas
Absolutely.
- [35:01]
Tim Ferriss
I mean, it's just mind boggling. Right. I haven't had an opportunity to spend time in that region of the world, but certainly in Central and South America and Africa and so on. When you start to look at, let's just say Shangan trackers in South Africa, there are levels than the Kalahari Bushmen. And then there are levels. And it's unbelievable how fluent they are in their environment and. But at the same time, many of these groups have an Achilles heel.
- [35:36]
Jordan Jonas
That's what it feels like, which is alcohol.
- [35:38]
Tim Ferriss
And to put it in perspective, what is the percentage of deaths attributable to homicide, suicide or alcohol related accidents?
- [35:48]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, the statistic I heard for the northern native villages was 30% of people die from homicide. Suicide. It's really. And having lived there a long time, actually, I appreciate you stepping back a little bit because I don't want to air dirty laundry and not put the proper context. I love those people, and they're my friends, and many of my friends have that issue. But it has really tangible consequences when it's at that level. But, yes, it was amazing because these people, you'd go in the village and they'd be just on the ground drunk for weeks on end, Just binges that could only be broken by taking them back out in the woods. But when they get in the woods and up, these are, like the coolest, most knowledgeable people. And then people that you would say are happy and living a fulfilled life and also just really open and pleasant and quick to become family, basically. But it was almost explicable just in the cultural tumult that they've had to endure over time, because, you know, it was just in the 30s and stuff that basically the Soviet Union and Stalin, like, kind of really grabbed a hold of what was had been long before, just the traditional way of life that continued forward alongside Russian fur trappers and this and that, and they grabbed hold of it with, like, an iron fist force, collectivized it. All the people that were spiritual leaders of any kind, shamans and everybody else got sent to prison camps, anyone that was really productive. So, like, if anyone that had more than 500 reindeer were sent to prison camps as kulaks or whatever, and then they kind of just gutted the intellectual and spiritual soul from them and then built these villages they forced them to be in. And then instead of them having reindeer and being people existing freely out in the wilderness, they turned them into collective farms. So now you're hired as a reindeer herder to herd the government's reindeer, and your wife might be hired as a teepee worker to live in the teepee. And so they just restructured the life. The kids now don't live with you in the woods. They go to boarding school, separated the families, and then somehow they actually made that kind of work, you know. And to some degree, the reindeer, while less independent than they were prior, they flourished in that. They had big herds of reindeer and people were productive and alcohol was banned. So they kind of were quite productive. And then the Soviet Union collapsed, and overnight, all the reindeer just became for the highest bidder. So the Russians and people from out of town that had a lot of money just came in and bought all these reindeer that were grandpas and grandma's blood and sweat and just butchered them and sent them to the meat shops. And the reindeer herders scraped together what little bit of Money they could and bought a few reindeer and went back into the woods. The family I lived with was Von Victorovich was the old man when I first got there, and he was blind, but he was the guy that had got some of these reindeer, took his sons out of the boarding school and raised them in the woods. And so it gave me a real appreciation also for the traditional ways of life. Because I could see it in villages where reindeer herding hadn't been hung onto and they just felt like black holes, like everybody was just drinking and there was nothing to do. And they don't have an outlet to flourish with something they're proud of in their native ways. So it felt pretty dead end. But the village with the reindeer herding had this whole thing and the reindeer herders out there. And because of that, even the people that don't do it are proud to be reindeer herders and they have a place to send their kids in the summer. And people have this. There's a little bit of cultural momentum that. So let's really enriching.
- [39:36]
Tim Ferriss
Let's unpack this word and this animal and the significance of reindeer because it's come up a ton and people are like, what is up with these magical reindeer?
- [39:45]
Jordan Jonas
Probably.
- [39:46]
Tim Ferriss
So first of all, just to paint a picture for folks, and this might not help, but how similar are reindeer to caribou?
- [39:55]
Jordan Jonas
Very similar, almost. You probably wouldn't recognize the difference, but they do have a slight genetic just from separation. So reindeer are technically in the old world and caribou are the similar animal, but in the new world, so Canada and stuff, and they can breed with each other and stuff, but the results turn out poorly. Like they get the worst traits of both. And then in the old world, more so than, well, an old world, it's the reindeer were domesticated very long ago, like 10,000 years ago or whenever. So there's actually kind of become a bit of a domestic strain of reindeer. Like the natives now can't domesticate the wild ones. And if a wild one comes in and breeds with theirs, then it's always going to be wild. So it's been a way of life long enough that there's some even genetic separation between the wild and the semi domestic.
- [40:51]
Tim Ferriss
And what is the role of the reindeer? Why are they so important? Is it analogous to, say, bison for some of the Plains Indians in North America? Is it different?
- [41:04]
Jordan Jonas
Well, I guess it is, actually.
- [41:06]
Tim Ferriss
It's different because of the domestication.
- [41:08]
Jordan Jonas
Exactly. I was gonna say it's analogous in that, you know, their whole cultural stories and Everything are all connected with the reindeer, like with the bison. But it does differ because the reindeer actually practically make living in the woods in the taiga, in those remote northern forests, a thing like it makes it possible to exist out there year round and have transportation. So they ride the reindeer like you would horses and then they also, in the wintertime, ride sleighs. They provide meat when the hunts don't go well. They provide the furs that, you know. So they kind of provide everything. They also provide just the cultural context. Like you could go out there, sure. And set up a teepee and live and bring in noodles and, you know, be just fine. But it would feel fairly dead without just the rhythms of life that are created by the reindeer. So they're really core to that sort of the rhythms, to the rhythms. But also they're very practically. I always hated snowmobiles because they're going to break down and then you're going to be stuck 40 kilometers from camp. And like you said, your hands aren't working. You got to try to work on this whole thing. When you had a reindeer and a sleigh, no problem. And so you can. This is a point that is interesting to make that I learned living in the woods for a while is you're home. You're just already home wherever you are. And so when you have your reindeer and stuff, you're not lost, you're home. Just where you are is kind of home. And you're able to take that and really embody it and become like a part of the wilderness in that way.
- [42:52]
Tim Ferriss
Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Sleep is the key to it all. It is the foundation. Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor, Eight Sleep, has improved my sleep with its Pod Cover. The Pod 5 introduces Eight Sleep's latest product, the blanket, which uses the same technology as the pod's coverage to extend temperature regulation across the entire body. On average, members report the POD has helped them fall asleep 44% faster, 34% deeper sleep, and given them up to one added hour of sleep each night. Also, the pod's snoring detection and automatic elevating platform have reduced user snoring by 45%. You'll also get a personalized report each morning, allowing you to track your sleep stages, heart rate, variability, respiratory rate and more, all without having any devices strapped onto you. So head over to eightsleep.com tim and use code TIM to get $350 off of your very own Pod 5 Ultra. You can try it at home for 30 days and return it if you don't like it again. That's eightsleep.com Tim for $350 off shipping is available to many countries worldwide. One more time eightsleep.com Tim listeners have heard me talk about making before you manage for years. All that means to me is that when I wake up I block out three to four hours to do the most important things that are generative, creative, podcasting, writing, et before I get to the email and the admin stuff and the reactive stuff and everyone else's agenda for my time. For me I need to find people who are great at managing and that is where Crescent Family Office comes in. You spell it C R E S S E T Crescent Family Office I was introduced to them by one of the top CPG investors in the world. Crescent is a prestigious family office for CEOs, founders and entrepreneurs. They handle the complex financial planning, uncertain tax strategies, timely exit planning, bill pay wires, all the dozens of other parts of wealth management and just financial management that would otherwise pull me away from doing what I love most. Making things, mastering skills, spending time with the people I care about. And over many years I was getting pulled away from that stuff at least a few days a week and I've completely eliminated that. So experience the freedom of focusing on what matters to you with the support of a top wealth management team. You can schedule a call today@crescentcapital.com Tim that's spelled C-R E S S E T crescapital.com Tim to see how Crescent can help streamline your financial plans and grow your wealth. That's crescentcapital.com Tim and disclosure, I am a client of Crescent. There are no material conflicts other than this paid testimonial. And of course all investing involves risk including loss of principal. So do your due diligence. So we're going to get back to hopping trains in a second, but you kind of passed over Gulag Archipelago and you're like had an influence. It had an impact on me. Seems like that might be an understatement. I don't know. For people who are wondering, this is not a light, breezy 100 page read and we're going to come to that in just a second. But what did your childhood education look like?
- [46:10]
Jordan Jonas
I was homeschooled so my mom took it real seriously and she was pretty hands on in teaching us. And I for whatever reason really got into history as a young kid so even probably was 12 I read this big. I remember it was my first real thick book, but it was about Iwo Jima and World War II and other battles. And then I got really into those memoirs. Read a bunch of German memoirs from World War II, which were always crazy because they had to go through so much. And then the Russian ones, because I was. Anyway, got in all the memoirs and then somehow came across the Gulag Archipelago. And I was fairly young, you know, I was probably 17, 18 when I first read it. And it impacted me in a lot of ways that were relevant to my. The little spiritual path that I was on before. Because a lot of what he talks about is that. That happiness can't be our ultimate goal in life. We have to have purpose.
- [47:06]
Tim Ferriss
Could you just. For people who. And certainly I'm not intimately familiar with it, but what is written about.
- [47:13]
Jordan Jonas
Alexander Solzhenitsyn was a guy who was on the front in World War II and wrote a letter back criticizing Stalin or something. And of course, he got checked and he got arrested and sent to Gulag, which were the Soviet prison camps that. That kind of snaked their way all through the Soviet Union. They were particularly harsh on political prisoners, as opposed to crime prisoners. So they would send these guys out to basically death camps and have them mine or do the labor, basically, that kept the thing going. But they were designed to be really brutal and dark places. The fact that even because the political prisoners were the bottom of the rung, they allowed the rapists and those guys to kind of rule the roost and set the rules. And so they degraded into some pretty terrible situations. But this was all unknown, basically, to the West. And he was some kind of a brilliant mind. And he, over his eight or however many years he was in the prison camp, had an encyclopedic ability to remember. Maybe he wrote down. I don't know. But all these stories of people who had been through all these situations. And when you read it, I was just struck by, like, man, there's a little paragraph about this lady. That lady should have her own book. That's a crazy amount of tragedy and story and all the stuff packed in those books. Another example of something that really stood out was like, when you get in prison, everybody says to themselves, I'm going to survive. Then you add at any cost to the end, almost nonchalantly. And then pretty soon you start down this path where you're. You're basically stomping on others to survive because you need to look out for, number one, survival of the fittest. And he was like, and everybody basically adopted that mentality. He's like, except for these occasional corrupt Orthodox church had somehow created these babushkas, these old ladies that didn't allow their soul to go down that path. And he's like, they all died, but they all were alight in the darkness on their way. And then. And kind of gets at the point of, yeah, lose your life, but don't lose your soul. And happiness can't be your ultimate goal that can be taken from you by a health change or by getting thrown in a gulag or by whatever it is. You have to have something deeper. And so forging a purpose.
- [49:36]
Tim Ferriss
I wanted to talk about the homeschooling because not that there is a single mold, but there are certain, I suppose maybe archetypes that people might have in their heads as to what constitutes a rugged mountain man, effectively. And I was chatting with my girlfriend last night and she was like, he doesn't really fit my vision of a rugged mountain man. Which is not. She's not saying you're not rugged, but when you're talking about. And I'm sure we'll get to this Assyrian history and reading Gulag archipelago as a 17 year old, these are not, not terribly common things that get woven together. How did your mom do the homeschooling? What did a week look like? Or the lesson plans? Does that make any sense? I'm just wondering because homeschooling, I think for a lot of people in the United States seems like an aberration. But when you look at some of the people whose books we read, a lot of them had some equivalent of homeschooling.
- [50:36]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. You know what I think it kind of is? It's a public school. There is a standard and everybody's going to be taught to that standard. And there's kind of a minimum bar and this and that homeschooling allows for more divergent options, both on the negative and the positive. So you can keep your kid at home and not teach them anything and go on. But also you can really focus on your kids unique interests and abilities and they can really excel and develop those in a way you wouldn't in kind of the public school realm. So because I was really into history, you know, we leaned into that and I had the time to. Because honestly, in a public school setting, you burn up so much time going into reason, you know, just dinking around. Whereas I could get done with my actual academic schooling in just a couple hours in the morning, a few hours maybe, then go on to my interests. And so it allows you to do that. But. And she kind of taught us, you know, initially she was really hands on. And then the older we got, it was more hands off, where we had to be more self taught and follow this whatever curriculum she had. And then the last two years of school, so my last junior and senior year, I went to a public high school and got that experience too.
- [51:47]
Tim Ferriss
Got socialized.
- [51:47]
Jordan Jonas
Got socialized, which was an odd experience. I'm not sure what I think of the socialization.
- [51:58]
Tim Ferriss
Prefer. I was going to say prefer to be an indoor cat. Beer? Not really an indoor or a cat.
- [52:02]
Jordan Jonas
No, but it. So with homeschooling though, I think it has a really awesome thing, you know, I think it's great that it's an option in the country. It is one thing if you're homeschooled, you have to focus on its weakness, which is community and friends and developing that. So for people that think that's an interesting option, just know that that's its weakness and account for that in how you organize. That's what we do with our kids.
- [52:26]
Tim Ferriss
How do you account for it with your kids?
- [52:28]
Jordan Jonas
We're really active in trying to be the catalyst for community in our town. Like we're always ready to hang out and we're all, you know, we got them in jiu jitsu and we got in gymnastics and got him in all the things. And then make phone calls, foster, like hiking trips with the other families and make sure we're like multiple times a week getting the kids together with their friends and stuff. You know, you just really put effort and focus on that.
- [52:55]
Tim Ferriss
It also strikes me that that the ability to build community and social bonds and therefore socialize, but not in some oddly artificial environment is kind of dependent on activities. And maybe this is particularly true for boys. I don't know. But what I observed when I was at your house, I just remember your kids, cousins visiting and they were always outside doing something, which I think is important. They're not just sitting around talking. That's not actually natural for most humans, including adults, to just do that all the time. There were shared activities and then when the cousins left, I guess it was your middle child who was just crying. And it was so adorable, but just such heartfelt deep connections. And similarly, it's like when we were out in the woods and we were sitting around, your brother was there. Maybe he had a thing or two to do with the jujitsu influence. I don't know. Another reason to never start fights. You would not see him and be like, oh, I'M terrified of that guy. And yet he could absolutely bend you into a pretzel and cause lots of orthopedic lifelong problems.
- [54:13]
Jordan Jonas
We were out there.
- [54:13]
Tim Ferriss
It was your brother, a couple of llamas, one with a slightly lopsided head prone to falling over. It's a long story. And just a few guys, two of my close friends and we're all around a fire and I can't remember who said it, maybe it was your brother, maybe it was Mike, but. Oh, I get it. I see why this is. Again, it's not saying this is a purely gendered thing, but this is what he said because it was all guys. It was Matt. Okay, who said now I see why guys like fire so much because they can connect and talk without making eye contact. You can just look at the fire having something thing that is like ancillary.
- [54:54]
Jordan Jonas
No, I thought it was a fun observation of paid a little more attention to it ever since. But it does just give you something a third party to. We should have a little start a little fire on the table here for sure. Having a common activity like that. And we are fortunate enough to just be able to live in a place that's really conducive to sending the kids outside. And it's something I've obviously tried to foster in them. So they do spend a lot of time just running around and being creative and you know, they don't have. One thing I've avoided a bit is phones and stuff like that. And I think it is fairly low hanging fruit because I mean you can see how they affect us in our everyday life. We get distracted and we get kind of disoriented with them, I would say. And with kids it's even so much more cute. So they have to go out and run around and play and have fun.
- [55:46]
Tim Ferriss
While you've also engineered this, I mean it's a very fancy term to use but like you've designed, designed that into your life as a deliberate environment and place. You could have been in a lot of other places. And as for instance, I'm training this very large puppy right now, although I think I'm being trained a lot more probably in any case very different personality from my other dog, probably mixed with Anatolian shepherd, very stubborn. And when you're trying to train a dog like that, I remember dog trainer said to me if you're using treats as an example, you have to tip with 20s because the bar is crowded, there are a lot of distractions. And when I think about kids and of course I do not have kids yet? I hope to in the very near future. But if you're sitting in an apartment in the city and you're like, kids, you can't use your phone, what are you offering them as an alternative? Right. It's like, what is the alternative that is more compelling and you've deliberately put yourself in an environment where you have quite a lot to choose from.
- [57:00]
Jordan Jonas
Right, right. And that has been intentional. And obviously that is probably more difficult if you have a small apartment and you live in a city. I imagine it takes a lot more hands on going to the park or, you know, there's a lot of creative outlets in learning to paint, learning an instrument, learning of this or that that may scratch that itch for me. I did have it as a high priority to let the outdoors be a big part of our life. So I moved where that was possible. And I have, you know, structured our life such. I got the llamas, you know, we're joking about initially so that I could take the family out on 12 week long trips rather than because I just couldn't carry enough gear to take them out for shorter. So it's been really intention, you know, it's been great and it's something to work out in a more urban context, but it's not where I'm at.
- [57:51]
Tim Ferriss
Llamas, people might be like, llamas, really? Are we in the Andes? What's going on? Why llamas instead of horses?
- [57:56]
Jordan Jonas
You know, the reindeer history now. When I first got back from Russia, I thought it would be amazing to pack with reindeer in America. So I lived in Idaho and there was a law against owning reindeer north of a certain border. I contacted my legislature or whatever there and oddly responsive. Pretty soon I was in meetings at the government with the government officials and they overturned the law. So now you can own reindeer in north Idaho. Unfortunately, part of that was they had to be in a high fence. So it kind of ruined the ability of what I was envisioning to like. So you couldn't.
- [58:32]
Tim Ferriss
You couldn't back them out?
- [58:33]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, I couldn't like load them full of gear and pack up in the woods. So, you know, then your only other options are horses and llamas. And I honestly just hadn't grown up with horses, and there is quite a learning curve on them. They're dangerous. You know, everybody that does a lot with horses has some kind of stories of getting hurt on them.
- [58:52]
Tim Ferriss
For people who have no idea how big are llamas, they're about 350 pounds, a lot smaller.
- [58:58]
Jordan Jonas
They're a lot smaller.
- [58:58]
Tim Ferriss
They're a lot smaller and they. I'm sure there are cases where they might. But they tend not to kick.
- [59:04]
Jordan Jonas
They're very like safe. And you can have like mean angry llamas of course. Like you can have a bad bitey dog. But you know, if you have a good llama it's. They're oddly chill animals. You can go up on the woods and they don't like tear up the ground. They sit there quietly. The kids can ride them. So in that way they're quite nice for kids. Obviously adults can't, but they can pack the gear and I can walk without gear as long as I want to. So those great advantages of horses and I love them but for me the low maintenance and low risk of a llama just. I was like, well if I can't have reindeer, I guess that's the next closest thing.
- [59:39]
Tim Ferriss
Are there any terrain or sure footedness advantages to llamas? I'm thinking about, for instance, like horses versus donkeys.
- [59:49]
Jordan Jonas
Right.
- [59:50]
Tim Ferriss
It seems like there are some advantages of using donkeys over horses.
- [59:54]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. The main advantage, everybody should follow Hobo.
- [59:58]
Tim Ferriss
Jordo on Instagram because you have photos of the aftermath of some horses going hartwelling down an incline.
- [60:05]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah.
- [60:06]
Tim Ferriss
Don't want to be caught up in that.
- [60:08]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it's easy to get killed, I think. Yeah. This is the common historical theme. So and so got bucked off the horse and the fourth crusade ended or whatever. Where were we going?
- [60:20]
Tim Ferriss
Advantages of llamas on terrain.
- [60:22]
Jordan Jonas
On terrain. Yeah. So they have like the horse, you have a metal shoe on the bottom and metal particularly on rock is pretty slippery. Slippery. And so you'll do a lot of slipping and sliding on rocks. The llamas have a soft pad with two little claws. They look like little raptor claws in the front. And so it's actually quite interesting to see how they work.
- [60:42]
Tim Ferriss
They're very small.
- [60:44]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, they're small little paws but they can stick on like a wet rock and that soft paddle grip and they can walk up and down the rocks or if you're in mud or soft dirt. You see those two little front claws dig in like a raptor claw and then can climb up that. Yeah, the terrain issues are pretty great. The other pack animal people use is goats. And those are nice because you can really go over boulders and like ran. You know they can hop from this to that. They're not, they're somewhere in between a horse and a goat as far as their off roading abilities.
- [61:13]
Tim Ferriss
But sounds like you would have to have a whole caravan of goats for carrying capacity.
- [61:19]
Jordan Jonas
And goats also are always with you, like with the llama. I can tie them up and go hike up this way and that way. The goats are always with you. Can't tie them up and you can't leave them anywhere. Chaos will ensue. But they're funny little critters. But they weren't my cup of tea.
- [61:38]
Tim Ferriss
Let's hop to purpose, which I feel like looking back at your family history, looking back and is it fair just to tie up one loose end with Gulag Archipelago? How analogous is it Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl?
- [61:56]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it's really similar. I think it's like the thicker version of that. You know, it's like Gulag Archipelago Light would be that man's search for meaning.
- [62:03]
Tim Ferriss
Got it.
- [62:04]
Jordan Jonas
Okay.
- [62:05]
Tim Ferriss
Could you give us a bit of your family history and you can go back to your grandmother. You could kind of start wherever you want. The purpose specifically made me think of your dad and the reinvention of purpose, which I think think is a pressing need for a lot of people in a fast moving modern environment where they feel like they're on very unstable ground, perhaps in a lot of ways. But let's go back. I threw out this term Assyrian, but most people don't. It's not a familiar word.
- [62:37]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, there's kind of, I guess you would almost call it the indigenous people of the Middle east before kind of the Arab takeovers and stuff were Aramaic speaking. Assyrians is what they're called. So that's what my family was. They lived in northwestern Iran, kind of near a lake called Lake Urmia. And during the chaos of World War I, you know, there had been. The Ottoman Empire was crumbling and all these people who had been under the Ottoman like colonial yoke were seeking out their independence and their freedom and breaking off and. And in all that chaos, basically I think what happened was they. It was an easy time to get rid of a entire people group. You know, like actually Anatolia, you have an Anatolian shepherd, was a pretty diverse place up until then. After that time it was basically just Turks and Kurds left. You know, like the, the Greeks, the Assyrians, the Armenians kind of got all ran out of there in what.
- [63:38]
Tim Ferriss
What were the reasons for running them out?
- [63:41]
Jordan Jonas
It's complicated. History's not black and white. They were minorities because those groups were Christian overall, living under the Ottoman umbrella. And so sporadically, at times they would live okay, and then at times there would be big massacres. And over the course of Centuries, there were just constant. It wasn't a pleasant way to live, I guess, would be the quick way to put it. And so there was sporadic massacres kind of all the time. And then, so when World War I happened, you couldn't blame them for wanting independence, you know. And so a lot of those Christian minorities joined with the British or the Russians to try to forge out their new nation states that were forming from the crumbling Ottoman Empire. And at the same time, nationalism was really rising. And there was a big Turkey for the Turks movement. Like, we don't want other people here. And that was ultimately the movement with the most power. And so when the Russian Empire collapsed from the Bolshevik Revolution, they kind of left a vacuum in these areas that had. They'd kind of provided a bit of a defense for. And because of that crazy nationalist fervor that was going on, the Turks decided that they could just. Just kill or expel all the minorities who, you know, of course, some of them had been problematic in that there was like these freedom movements everywhere, collective punishment at a massive scale. And obviously my grandparents were kind of out of it because they were in Iran. But when the Russian presence left there, the Turks went into there too. And it was basically at that point, it was just a. A kind of a uncontrolled, well, ultimately would be a genocide. It killed like 750,000 Assyrians and a million plus Armenians. And, you know, it was quite a disaster. So my grandma and grandpa, both of them would ultimately be, for all practical purposes, sole survivors. Like, their families were completely wiped out. My grandpa was in a village when they were coming in and burning it down, and his dad was in a wheelchair, basically put a money belt on him and told him just. He was 17, told him just run and don't look back. He looked back to see his dad's house on fire, you know, with his dad in it. He never knew what his sister happened to his sister. Ended up getting taken in by some Jesuit priests and kind of raised in there. And then my grandma had a different story where the Ottoman Empire was still kind of conscious of, like, trying to put on a image to the world. And so instead of, I mean, there was plenty of just straight up massacres, but instead of, they called them deportations, but they were kind of deportations to nowhere. So they just drove people out into the desert and marched them around until they died. And so my grandma, and she had seven siblings and a mom, her dad was taken off to be shot. And then they just drove them around in the desert until all but the mom, my great grandmother and one sister of my grandma were left. You know, the baby just had died and the mom fell down. She's like, I just can't go on anymore. And my shalom. My grandma and Shushan, like, picked her up and like, we gotta keep going. At some point there, they split off from the guards or whatever, stumbled through, and we're. We're actually ended up being rescued by a British military, like, outpost type thing. I don't know. And then they were taken to a refugee camp. Mom and the sister never recovered really, from just the trauma. And then grandma was sent to Baghdad and raised in a refugee camp. So these two people had kind of lost everything. Even their, like. I mean, the Assyrian people nation kind of almost vanished. Like, there's Aramaic is what they speak. It's like almost a gone language now. You know, it's very. Just small fragments of it hanging on. So they kind of lost everything. And then they met in Baghdad, somehow got married, immigrated to France right before World War II. And then the Nazi invasion happened and there was a whole. They have a whole series of stories from kind of the deprivation at that time. They were already poor immigrants arriving there and then to go through that whole Nazi occupation. And then they eventually made it to America and actually died not long after. So my dad was 10 when his parents died and was raised by his sisters. But what I find something to be that I think about a lot is that they ended up having 11 kids, so they had a really big family. And I would go to all these family reunions with my aunts and uncles and my dad and this and that, and they were just the most joyful, fun and so much love and joy and family and all this. It was a real bright spot in my childhood. And then it was just that Jonas family stuff. And then you almost take it for granted until you step back and you're like, wait a second, we're one generation from like, this is my grandma and her dad. You know, her grandpa had their entire families wiped out and lost their whole culture and had to immigrate and give up everything and then had to do that again. But somehow they've raised like a really joyful family, like a full of people. And our conversations were never about, like, those people did that to us. And like, this is what happened. You know, it was never hate, was never the common language. It was always love and family. And now there's like some old grainy videos of grandma and grandpa and they're just laughing and, you know, they raised Rabbits and eating rabbit around the table and laughing. And you think, well, that's so interesting. I don't know what cross they bore. And I know my dad said his dad used to always sit closet and pray. And he's like, you know, I'm sure he had, like, a lot to deal with, but they didn't pass it down, one generation, which is impressive, you know, and they. And not only did they not pass it down, they built and put into the world something really beautiful, which is my family, including my dad. And so leading into what you're talking about, dad, it's something that I think about regularly more than you would think, because maybe I have a history into orientation, but just the fact that that that's a legacy that I have that we all have, you know, shared humanity. But what a thing to be able to live up to. Like, I don't have to be defined by the hardship and the tragedy in a negative way. It's like you can expect. You can see how other. Other people have risen to that occasion and come out of it and created. And so when I find myself in a hard situation in the past or now or whatever, you know, you can. You have that to. To look at and hang on to.
- [70:41]
Tim Ferriss
Having a choice.
- [70:42]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, you have a choice of how to relate to it. I mean, there were so many people, and they're just like, you have every right to be fully traumatized and never recover. You know what I mean? There's no judgment on my front for that. But on the other hand, it's like, what about those few people that did somehow recover or what? You know, I don't know what you would call it, but they somehow built something in the world in spite of the unimaginable horrors watching your family get killed and raped and all the things that went on. And then just being able to build a loving family was pretty impressive.
- [71:17]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah. Well, let's talk about your dad. I mean, whether by nature or nurture or both, he made seemingly some pretty remarkable choices as well.
- [71:27]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. So he grew up as obviously a son of immigrants in America, and they. He was raised by mostly his sister out on, you know, and so he. All I think he really wanted was a family and stability and wanted to work hard. And, you know, his most joyful moments, as when I was growing up, was just when he'd come home from work and we'd run out and give him a hug. Like, I think that was his, like, life most fully lived was just being a provider and being able to, you know, he was an Engineer. So he was smart guy and being able to just create a family, that's really what he wanted. He was very family oriented. But then it was interesting because when he had also had childhood diabetes and polio, so he had some health issues and he wasn't great at managing his diabetes well. So when he was probably about. I mean, I was pretty young, I guess, you know, still a teenager probably, he started get the sores on your feet that you get. And then basically because of the degrading situation with his feet, he lost his job. And all of a sudden he had to watch as my mom had to go back to school, which was something that was very difficult for her because she's just not academic. But no longer could dad be the provider. He was basically somebody we had to care for because he ended up losing his foot and this and that. It was like a 12 year process of his health degrading. And it was really hard for him. Like, he had to, you know, his mom's going to school and we had to go to the food bank. And I remember him just like crying, like, oh, I failed. Like, the one thing he wanted to do.
- [73:06]
Tim Ferriss
Brutal.
- [73:06]
Jordan Jonas
And I remember. And then his foot finally recovered and he and I went out in the woods and we were splitting wood and he like crushed his foot into the log splitter. Oh. And I was, oh, deflate yourself. So then they just amputated his other foot. And so, so basically he lost his ability, his physical ability to pursue his purpose in the world. That was really difficult for him to do. He had to watch his family suffer and this and that. But then it was interesting over the years to watch him well. So from my perspective as a son, from my mom's perspective as a wife, we never lost sight of his purpose. You know, like, we knew who he was in our lives. It was never about the. The money he was bringing home or this or that. It was like, man, he what an encourager and, you know, what a joyful person and all that. And we never lost sight of that. He did. But then it was interesting to see over the course of those 12 years of health degradation, how it was almost like he had to refind his purpose. And he did. And then when his health was at its worst, then he was on dialysis and in tons of pain and stuff. Stuff was, in a way, when his, like, spiritual giftings or something were at their peak. Like, he was really able to. I could hear him at night crying in pain and like, oh. And then in the morning he would, oh, Jordan, you're you know, doing great and this and that, and let's read this psalm together or let's do this. You know, he was very much. He refound his purpose in pouring into us and into facing the loss of his health and his own death. Death with joy. And that's what he did. He was like, finally. He was like, man, I'm in too much pain. It's too degrading to have me rolling him off the bed, take him to dialysis. He's like, I'm just going to stop going to dialysis. That was a hard decision for him. But when he did, it was just like, all right, let's just party for the next two weeks. He was diabetic, so finally he could eat all the crap food he wanted. We all had tons of laughs, and he was kind of full of joy right up until the end. And you're like, what a cool legacy to see someone face all that and see purpose not in their life even, but even in how to face death and the way he did that. We're all going to be in the same position where we lose our. Whether it our health or whatever inevitable suffering is coming down the hatch. I now have a template for how to face that in a way that I'm still. Still putting into the world some kind of light, because I could see that it's not only possible, but, you know, I could see the template for doing that. So it's interesting having seen that, it really makes you grateful for the, like, the blessing I have now and that I do know what I love to do and that I have an opportunity to share it with others. I know my even like, my purpose now as it is, but I also know that's going to have to evolve with inevitabilities of aging and everything else. And so it's interesting to make sure your priorities now are in such a way that as you have to shift directions, that you'll be able to make that adjustment. Like, they should rhyme. It's not going to be something completely different. It's just going to evolve into a little bit different angle.
- [76:19]
Tim Ferriss
When you think of your dad's purpose changing over those 12 years is one way to view it as him going from prioritizing how he acted in the world, how he does things in the world, to how he then supports and teaches the rest of you in the family. I mean, was he taking on more of a teacher role? Was it a supporter role?
- [76:43]
Jordan Jonas
I mean, maybe not explicitly, but definitely implicitly. His gifting was that he really was an Encourager and was really joyful. And, you know, people enjoyed being around him. And he was able to lean into those skills, those gifts, in spite of the fact that he couldn't walk or that he could. Didn't have hands or whatever. And so I think you lean into those giftings that you have that are not dependent on what you. On your ability to produce, you know, which is great while you have it.
- [77:17]
Tim Ferriss
After he stopped dialysis, how long did he last after that?
- [77:21]
Jordan Jonas
It was about a week. It wasn't as long even as we expected. You know, like it might be up to two weeks or whatever. At about, I think about a week in, his temperature just spiked and then that was it. We were all around.
- [77:33]
Tim Ferriss
Did you at the time understand his decision?
- [77:38]
Jordan Jonas
To be honest, I actually. He was really struggling with it because he was also a man of faith. And I remember him reading, you know, he was like. Because he really was having a hard time hanging on, you know, because it's the pain, the amount of pain he was in and stuff. But he was like, it says here the Lord will never give you more than you can bear. And I remember actually in conversation with him, well, that's actually not true, dad. Everybody that's died was given more than a bear. It says it won't tempt you beyond your ability to bear, which is a different thing. You're kind of on a different realm there. And so we had that conversation. So it's not that I was. I wanted him to hang on as long as possible, but I also wanted him to have the freedom. We talked a lot about how it's weird in the modern world where you have this choice that we've never had in the past, where you have to now choose when to stop going to dialysis or stop doing this or that, or you can just drag on your inevitable downfall kind of forever. And so I think it was ultimately, it just came down to the fact that he wasn't ever going to get better. He recognized that he was in a lot of pain, and I think he wanted to free. In a final act, you kind of free us up to probably.
- [78:50]
Tim Ferriss
So I'm going to use some of the promises and perils of modern healthcare, like you said, to extend the Runway sometimes in cases where the quality of life just entails so much suffering or lack of awareness that it raises a lot of ethical questions that we didn't have to face 200 years ago, 300 years ago, just to take a closer look at modern living. And specifically where I want to go with that is Maybe we could take it to our trip in the mountains because particularly since we weren't doing any hunting, if you're hunting, then you have to time your rhythm with your quarry. And it's a different situation. But I remember asking you at one point, I was like, so when are we waking up tomorrow? And you're like, well, when we want to wake up. And this comes back to the Evenki as well. And living in a settlement where you are managing someone else's property or an employee of the government versus having more flexibility in the way you structure your life and your days. I would just love to hear you riff on sort of of overstructure versus too little structure versus where humans kind of naturally fall.
- [80:17]
Jordan Jonas
The first glimpse I got of this way of life that we've lost in the modern context was actually riding trains, where it's like, you wake up in the morning, I don't have anything I have to do. I just got to figure out where to get food and water. And that's basically it.
- [80:30]
Tim Ferriss
Can you give us a minute or two of just how on earth did you end up hopping trains?
- [80:35]
Jordan Jonas
The quick minute or two of that was that my brother had had, for whatever reason, done it for years. He hitchhiked and didn't like relying on people to pick him up. Somehow he heard about riding trains, jumped on one, and probably a lot to do with this freedom that we're about to discuss. Just loved it, you know. And in 10 years, he basically, seven or eight or 10, however many years, he just rode trains. And at some point when I was 18 or so, invited me to go along and. And so I did, which was probably fork in my road just from having a job and doing the stuff to all of a sudden, it's pretty, pretty wide fork. Yeah. But while you glimpse what I think is the appeal there is that that rhythm of life that humans are designed for, that we've lived for as long as humans have been around, then I would really get immersed in again living with the natives later where, yeah, you wake up and you have things you have to do, but there's no particular schedule. They're all directly tied to your existence. Right now. You're not working to make money to put in your 401k so that later, it's just all very direct. It's like, oh, let's go catch some fish today, we're hungry. Or the reindeer might be getting away, let's go herd them back. And you kind of have these activities that are directly related to your life. And in that you would know the proper terminology. But it feels like your dopamine and your serotonin and all that kind of stuff is just lined up properly.
- [82:02]
Tim Ferriss
Well, you're living the way that we have evolved to live.
- [82:05]
Jordan Jonas
Exactly. So you're in the right mold basically for that. And I've described it before, but when you're successful on a hunt or when you're like, get into some good fish and you're in that rhythm. So you just couldn't be more joyful than that. There's just no more. That's it. That's your max human experiences. It's amazing. Yeah. And we didn't have to or earn a bunch of money. And it's just so much more accessible in a way.
- [82:34]
Tim Ferriss
It also makes me think about. Sorry to jump in, but when you were talking about your brother and his German shepherd who had never done any herding, and there are a couple of goats running amok and your brother started trying to gather them and the German shepherd just clicked into what it is artificially evolved to do and boom, it was off to the races.
- [83:00]
Jordan Jonas
Fully in the rhythm of life, knew.
- [83:02]
Tim Ferriss
Exactly what it needed to do. And humans are not that different.
- [83:06]
Jordan Jonas
No, in a sense. And we have so many layers on top of that simplicity that sometimes it all feels like hacks. As we know. Even you look on your phone. I got seven likes, Just a little hack of our berry picking reception. But you never quite fully get there. It was always a little bit hard to articulate. I was like, life feels just more realistic. You're more in the world. But it's a little bit difficult to articulate.
- [83:37]
Tim Ferriss
Well, it seems very tangible in the sense that you're dealing with fewer layers of abstraction. You're not like, I'm going to do this thing to then ensure this other thing that will give me more happiness in the future. It's like, I know I'm going to need to eat in a few hours or I'd prefer to eat. Need to eat in a few hours. You could fast. But you're like, I kind of like to eat. I'd like to be warm. Okay. I'd like to sleep tonight. So it's like, okay.
- [84:08]
Jordan Jonas
The cause and effect are very related.
- [84:10]
Tim Ferriss
It's very easy to track. And not just track, but like have the gratification of individual cause and effect.
- [84:18]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. And that's very tangible. And it was so much so that this is only a working hypothesis. But when I was living with the natives, you know, I had the issue that I. It wasn't my native Language. And as much as they were, you know, I love those people and they're my friends. It wasn't like my family, it wasn't the people that you grow up with, you know, But I was like, I wonder if everybody would choose this way of life if it was in a little bit more pleasant climate and with the too modern, a little bit, maybe.
- [84:48]
Tim Ferriss
A negative 20 and not negative 50.
- [84:50]
Jordan Jonas
Modern medicine and food security are amazing. And so aside from that, it's like, I wonder if people wouldn't choose this way of life. Even people that just have no idea that they might like the outdoors.
- [85:01]
Tim Ferriss
Can I give like a sidebar experience that sometimes comes along with us you were talking about a little bit earlier today, but can you talk about the bear incident specifically that you were mentioning earlier with your friend with the gun?
- [85:18]
Jordan Jonas
This is a time where we had kind of gone out in the woods and a bunch of. We'd taken a bunch of the younger dudes that were living in the village and kind of drinking. And my fur trapping buddy has his big fur trapping territory and he was like, at least you get these kids out there and just like spend a summer, summer, you know, and have them living off the land.
- [85:35]
Tim Ferriss
And just because I'm curious, is this sable or what are they sables?
- [85:38]
Jordan Jonas
What they fur trap? So we were out, spent out a summer out on that territory, invited a handful of these guys and it was great. We had a horse out there and you know, cutting hay with for it and all that with the sigh and living off the land. Basically all that we fished and hunted. Well, one day we came out, I heard my buddy was sleeping and he woke up and he was, he's like. And you could hear the dogs barking like crazy. Well, we woke up and I thought, man, that dumb dog, it just barks at every squirrel this or that. And so I didn't get up and look. Well, my buddy goes out to brush his teeth and runs back, there's a bear out there. So I jumped up and we look out and a bear just 150 yards, you know, not far at all from our cabin, had killed a moose.
- [86:19]
Tim Ferriss
What kind of bears are we talking about?
- [86:21]
Jordan Jonas
These are brown bears. Just some kind of brown bear in Siberia. And they burni middle did bigger than a black bear. Yeah, bigger than a black bear. Some kind of a grizzly. So we come out and the bear took off up in the woods and we're like, what is that laying over there? And you know, sure enough, a big fresh warm moose. We're like, oh, no way. So we. It was a windfall for us. So of course we, like, cut it up and take it back to camp. We dug a big pit into the permafrost, you know, as a makeshift fridge, and threw the meat in there. And then a few days later, that bear came back with us. A vengeance.
- [86:54]
Tim Ferriss
Like, he was not pleased.
- [86:56]
Jordan Jonas
He was not pleased he came back. First sign was one of our dogs just ran into the little cabin and under the bed or whatever. And then the other one, we started hearing barking outside. And then the bear was. It was a lot of tall brush in the area, so we could just hear. I could just hear the bear just through the. Ripping through the brush and then ripping this way and that. I was like, oh, it was pretty intense right off the bat. And I was like, holy crap. So I grabbed the sks, which is like a assault rifle, is basically what they use to hunt over there and run out of the cabin and go kind of towards where the dog's barking. I figure the bear was over there. So I'm walking over towards this bark. And then Jurka, one of the younger guys, was behind me. And when we just hear this, the bear was right behind us and snorted.
- [87:41]
Tim Ferriss
We're like, whoa.
- [87:42]
Jordan Jonas
Like, flip around. And then it just charged through the alders, and we're like, oh, well, that was crazy. Like, what's the dog barking at? And so then you could hear this kerfuffle out in the woods. I was like, oh, here, you take the gun. I'm gonna take the. My little 3 megapixel camera I had at the time. And I love that.
- [88:00]
Tim Ferriss
That's your reflex look. I'm gonna take some photos. Seems like a great, perfect time.
- [88:05]
Jordan Jonas
It was a bad choice in the end, but anyway, I gave the gun to Jurka. Same thing. We're, like, kind of paying attention to where we last heard the chaos. And again the bear was behind us, like, move and snorted again. And Jurka just took off running with the gun, and he full on ran and disappeared from my sight. You know, my knee issues we discussed earlier. So I actually couldn't run, nor would I want to from a predator. So I kind of just stood there. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm just here with. Now what do I do with my.
- [88:35]
Tim Ferriss
Stupid 3.5 megapixel camera?
- [88:38]
Jordan Jonas
And so anyway, he was gone a long. It felt like a very long time. It was 30 seconds to a minute, like a good enough long time that I was like, what in the world? And then finally he comes back in his knees he's like, I can't do this. My knees are shaking. And I was like, I was like, you got the gun. Like, don't run. And then right as I said that, the bear, like stood up in front of us and he just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And filled his old magazine into it and it took off. And, you know, we ended up getting it, which we, you know, then we. I laughed at him because we were joking around. But they had always been telling me like, you know, essevenki, one shot, one kill. And then it was like Vietnam. And we're like. But then it was a crazy, you know, it's pretty intense. And then it was also interesting because I was the first bear that I was with him with when they killed. And they had this whole ritual because how they honored the bear. The word, the avenue word for bear is Grandpa Amaka. And then they take the eyeballs out. They took the eyeballs out and put them under a rock so that when the spirit of the bear came back, it wouldn't see who did what to it. And then the funny, the better part was they took the intestines and threw them in the river. So when it did come back, it would be the neighboring village that the intestines floated to that caught the wrath. But yeah, that was a pretty intense little moment there.
- [90:03]
Tim Ferriss
We're going to do one more story. I mean, these are all going to be stories. We're going to do one more story. Some of the native hunters are better than others. I'm going to cue you. Also involves moose, if I'm not mistaken. Canoe.
- [90:18]
Jordan Jonas
Oh, this is great. Yeah, this is another hilarious story. So There were these two mid-60s women that were going to come out to the tribe. So there's this, the village, the native village, 500 people. It was about a 12 hour float from a place that's a common stop that the nomads often stop. So they had found out that we were going to be there. So these old ladies are going to come out and visit the tribe. Well, they got, yeah, it's just a 12 hour float. So you don't really need much to get there at the end of the day and can eat when you get there. So all they brought, as any native did, would be an ax. And so they untied their rope as an aluminum boat and jumped in the boat and they're just floating along. Well, picture two, you know, senior citizen women floating down and there's a moose swimming across the lake. And as you do, we gotta kill this thing. We'll be the heroes or whatever. So they rode up next to it, and with the rope that was attached to the front of their boat, they lassoed over the. I don't know if it was the antlers or the neck of this thing, but at the same time they had the axe. They pictured themselves like, chopping it in the neck and trying to kill it. Well, it, of course, got traction on the shore, on the water, before they were able to pull that off and took off into the woods and skied these ladies in this boat behind them several hundred yards up into the woods before it finally went through these two trees and snapped the rope off and it disappeared. And those ladies, like, no, just were gone for a few days. Sit by the side of the river till the next people, they couldn't carry their boat, so they just sat there until finally somebody floated by that could help them drag their boat back to the water. And the lady, they made it out. The lady was very funny because she was. We then had to get back to the village eventually. It was like a, you know, by land. It was like a 30 kilometer reindeer ride. And that poor lady and I had the same problem. I would always fall off the reindeer, but she was the only other person that apparently had that problem. Because they just put the saddle on loosely. It's not like a horse saddle where you kind of cinch it up. They just throw it on and it kind of wobbles, but they get used to it, and so they can kind of ride along. And it took me a long time to get used to, but obviously it took her also a long time. And I was walking, but we were in the rain. And that poor lady, every time we crossed a river or a puddle or anything, they keep lifting her back on. But it was very funny. That was a great, great story. There are different breed of people that when grandma sees the moose swimming across the river, decide to ratchet it in the neck.
- [93:07]
Tim Ferriss
All right. So I'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about alone, which is probably the only. Let's call it, reality TV show that I've watched two full seasons of in the last decade. Six and seven.
- [93:22]
Jordan Jonas
Oh, yeah.
- [93:23]
Tim Ferriss
The word on the street, otherwise known as the Internet, was that season six, which you were a part of, and season seven were kind of two of the highlights.
- [93:33]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [93:34]
Tim Ferriss
With some insane fucking events that transpire in these two seasons. If you ever have to. I had to. Well, had to. I chose after elbow surgery to do hyperbaric oxygen treatments. For a host of reasons. Sidebar on that if you're going to do that needs to be hard shell, medical grade, typically like 2 to 2.5 atmospheres. Don't do any soft shell stuff. It's a waste of time. But what do you do? You're just sitting there and especially in a hard shell, you can't bring anything in. But they set up TVs and so my guilty pleasure turned into watching these multiple seasons of Alone. Of alone. So for the season that you were a part of, the format of the show changed a bit over time, but it was referred to along the lines of kind of the super bowl of survival.
- [94:30]
Jordan Jonas
Right, right, right.
- [94:32]
Tim Ferriss
And in your particular season, season six, what was the format?
- [94:37]
Jordan Jonas
The quick summary of the show is, yeah, 10 people go out in the woods all by yourself. You self film it's all. And you get to to pick 10 basic tools like an ax and a ferro rod and a sleeping bag and a few things like that. And then they drop you all off in different areas in the wilderness. And the person that lasts the longest wins. And hypothetically, you know, indefinitely. I think maybe there was a year cut off, but hypothetically a year plus you might stay out there if people really get into a groove. So yeah, that was the format of the season. It's a fairly simple concept.
- [95:10]
Tim Ferriss
What was the location?
- [95:11]
Jordan Jonas
Ocean, Northwest Territories, Canada. So we're just south of the Arctic Circle, right? Yeah, right at the.
- [95:17]
Tim Ferriss
Not warm.
- [95:18]
Jordan Jonas
Not warm. Not warm. But conveniently very similar parallel to where I was in Siberia. Yeah, it's very.
- [95:27]
Tim Ferriss
I mean, it seems like having watched two seasons and some other shows also that were. I mean, Alone is my favorite. I mean you learn so much. If you're into any a degree of.
- [95:39]
Jordan Jonas
This is a great show. Honestly, you really learn a lot because.
- [95:41]
Tim Ferriss
You get to see a lot of different approaches and what seems to work and what doesn't. And there are multiple approaches that seem to work. Yeah, right.
- [95:49]
Jordan Jonas
Like just don't build a cabin.
- [95:52]
Tim Ferriss
I mean, no, seriously, don't try to build like Abraham Lincoln log cabin. That image in your mind. Don't try to do that. But then you got like Stone House in season seven. Like, I mean, I probably wouldn't have tried to do it because I'd be afraid of blowing a gasket, but it worked very different from the shelter that you built. Let's talk about the tools for a second. Because there were things that would not be obvious to someone watching the show that I found interesting. For instance, when we were out in the woods, you Showed me. This is going to require a little explanation. So you'll have to explain what basic paracord could be used for. But you've got this looks like a transatlantic cable of paracord which was not.
- [96:36]
Jordan Jonas
Allowed on the show.
- [96:37]
Tim Ferriss
It was not allowed.
- [96:38]
Jordan Jonas
You had to have basic paracord.
- [96:39]
Tim Ferriss
But it's a single cord that has like fishing line and filament and all sorts of things.
- [96:45]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, super handy.
- [96:46]
Tim Ferriss
I've never seen it. What is that called?
- [96:47]
Jordan Jonas
Survival cord. And it has, you know, a tinder material inside of it you can pull out. It's kind of a wax coated thing, catches spark well. And then it has a snare, like Kevlar cable. So you make a snare and then it has a fishing line and then the regular string that usually comes in the paracord. And paracord is just a string that has an outer sheath and then a bunch of little inner strands that are more like individual strings and they're kind of twisted together and make for a strong rope. Or you can break it down into useful bits.
- [97:19]
Tim Ferriss
Turn it into a gill net.
- [97:20]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, turn it into a gill net. Which is.
- [97:21]
Tim Ferriss
Which proves to be. Seems to be one of the winning.
- [97:24]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, gillnet's hard to beat. It's such a passive way of collecting food in there.
- [97:29]
Tim Ferriss
What is a gill net?
- [97:30]
Jordan Jonas
A gill net is a. It's just a big net that you throw in the water and set in the water in such a way that fish swimming by get caught in it and fish can't back up. So when they swim into a net, if it's sized properly to their body and gills, they'll get caught in it and then they just sit there.
- [97:47]
Tim Ferriss
So just for definition of terms snare kind of similar. Right. In the sense that you're trying to get a given animal around the neck and you have to size it properly.
- [97:59]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. So snaring is another. In an actual survival situation, it's kind of the. Not the golden ticket, but incredibly important. You know, it's also usually illegal in most places because it's really effective. But if you're really starting it would be. Yeah, you size to what you're trying to catch. So like a hair would be about the size of your fist. You make a piece of wire or if you only have string, loop about that big, set it on the trail and do some things to try to.
- [98:28]
Tim Ferriss
Sorry, I'm laughing because another story just came to mind mine. So in another example of footage you're not going to see on the show. So I give them points a medical team would come out and check on participants. And I can't remember the exact parameters, but if you're losing too much body.
- [98:50]
Jordan Jonas
Weight or they'd schedule occasional visits to get your SD cards, give you new batteries, and then just make sure. Sure you're not critically in danger with.
- [99:01]
Tim Ferriss
Your health of organ failure or something like that. Now, I think you were telling me that one point when they were doing a medical check for you that you'd set up. Remind me what this called for.
- [99:12]
Jordan Jonas
A squirrel pole.
- [99:13]
Tim Ferriss
A squirrel pole. The squirrels like to run up things and then across everything else. Exactly.
- [99:18]
Jordan Jonas
You ever have a power line in front of your ass?
- [99:20]
Tim Ferriss
So what does. Yeah. Explain how you just roughly how you build this thing.
- [99:24]
Jordan Jonas
And, yeah, for whatever reason squirrels are, they just love running up things and then across things. And so, you know, that's why you see them running on the power lines and everywhere. And so you can take advantage of that to catch them by clearing all the branches off of a couple trees and then running a pole between those two trees and then throwing a couple snares along that pole. And eventually some squirrel run up and zip across, especially if you see one in the area.
- [99:50]
Tim Ferriss
What does that look like when a. When a medical check is being done Right behind.
- [99:54]
Jordan Jonas
It was kind of funny because it was early on, it was like, you know, maybe the second week or something, and they. They still had this crew member guy who I thought was hilarious because they really, you know, of course it's alone, so they try to be really stoic. They don't want to give you, like, actual human interaction. But this one guy was just like, whoa, hell yeah. This is awesome. You really liked what was going on out there. But they all come walking in. You're set up. Yeah. For the medical check and scared a squirrel, and it ran up and hung itself. And it was, like, sitting there kicking while the guys walked by. But he was that one British guy in goes, oh, hell yeah. I was like, oh, man. Thanks, guys. That was kind of funny, but they accidentally helped me cheat there.
- [100:38]
Tim Ferriss
So how long did you ultimately last?
- [100:42]
Jordan Jonas
77 days.
- [100:44]
Tim Ferriss
77 days. And is it fair to say that last is the wrong word to use? Because my understanding in conversations with you is that it was. Of course, the television has to be edited in such a way that everyone is going through this crucible with coming close to glancing off the breaking point and so on. But it doesn't seem like it was that hard for you.
- [101:09]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it really wasn't. It could have been. It's the woods. You never know what's going to happen. But man, that was going really well. I actually snared a bunch of rabbits, had 20 something plus rabbits before I got the moose, which I got a moose at. And then from then on, I really nailed the fishing and I just was piling up food like crazy. And just because of my previous experience for, you know, years at a time in Russia, I wasn't couple few, three, four months there. Just didn't seem like a long time away from the family because I knew our relationship was strong and generally could handle it and I'd come back and we'd catch up and it'd all be good. But I bore a lot of stress because I didn't know know how long this show would last. So I was.
- [101:56]
Tim Ferriss
Which is something that changed in season seven.
- [101:58]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it was a big difference in season seven. By in the next season they capped it at 100 days, which had that been my season would have been interesting because I. Once you get the moose, I could have just basically partied and, you know, enjoyed myself. But because I got this moose, it was a lesson I learned. A lesson that I learned that was.
- [102:15]
Tim Ferriss
The first large mammal harvest.
- [102:18]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah.
- [102:18]
Tim Ferriss
On the show, right?
- [102:19]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And something that I really noticed out there was I should have been more present in the moment because I did allow myself to stress about this future. You know, I was like, okay, I got a moose, now I'm getting fish, surely somebody else is. So man, we're going to be out here six, eight months and I lost some fat. So now I'm going to lose. So I had like. So I can't be out here eight months and lose. So I was bearing a lot of stress because I didn't actually, as much as I would advise myself if I were to go on again, like just be in the present, you know, don't worry about that future. What happened is, yeah, I was gunning for 140 days before I even thought it might end and hadn't even allowed the thought to cross my mind that it would had a lot of food to get there. And then it ended at day 77. I can't say I ever thought I was going to win. I went out there to win because I wasn't like trying to prove anything, but I was just, you try to keep going stride, just see what happens. I'm just going to go out there and see if I can be sustainable. But I was genuinely shocked when it ended and thought it was going to go quite a bit longer.
- [103:24]
Tim Ferriss
Let me tackle a couple of things because There are a number of details that I think might be instructive to get into. So first, let's talk about the basic tools. I'm amazed. I don't want to give too many spoilers, but like, one of your competitors made a shocking decision, which was to not bring a Pharaoh. And that was. That was, that was, that was. That was a very risky maneuver. Ended up making it work. But in part, he was very good with something called bow drill. Look up bow drill online. We probably. But it's using friction to create a fire. But if you're accustomed to using softer wood and then you go into alpine territory and it's much, much, much harder wood, you got a problem on your hands. Hands.
- [104:10]
Jordan Jonas
Yep. He was able to find a cedar board, which doesn't grow up there.
- [104:13]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah. You're allowed to use anything that you find. So tin cans or barrels or whatever. Effectively human garbage or things that have been washed up on the shore. So 10 basic tools. What did you choose to bring?
- [104:27]
Jordan Jonas
I took an ax, a saw, leatherman, which is like a multi tool as a knife and pliers and stuff. Stuff. And a frying pan and a ferro rod, a sleeping bag, a bow, an arrow. You get like bows and arrow. A fishing kit, Trapping wire and paracord. And trapping wire was just a thin gauge, solid stainless steel wire.
- [104:59]
Tim Ferriss
And then you could create the gill net out of the paracord.
- [105:03]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. So I got the. I thought about bringing a gill net, but then I just thought, I'll bring a paracord. I can make a gillnet. And the paracord will come in handy for other things too.
- [105:11]
Tim Ferriss
What are some common mistakes? If you look at what people choose to bring, what are certain things they choose to bring? Let's leave aside a gillnet. Right. Because we already covered that. You can create that. What are some other, would you say, mistakes?
- [105:25]
Jordan Jonas
I mean, I always, with my own biases, always think when someone doesn't bring an axum on, really. But I have my own. How are you going to get through the ice? And how are you going to. They're so handy. Handy. But I brought a saw, which in hindsight, I probably should have just brought a gill net and had two instead of making the one and have, you know. Anyway, I do think not bringing a fire starter is a poor choice because it's just so much stress. You know, you have to bear so much stress of not letting your fire go out and everything's harder. So you have to be really conscious of the fact that things like staying hydrated is super Important. And so if there's an extra step, step to hydration, you're going to drink a little bit less water.
- [106:08]
Tim Ferriss
Just to be clear, if you're drinking out of a natural source, you want to boil that water.
- [106:14]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. Typically, you'll want to boil it. So if you're going to boil it and then you have to start a bow drill fire to boil your water, then all of a sudden you're also.
- [106:21]
Tim Ferriss
Burning a lot of calories.
- [106:22]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. It just becomes a stressor. You don't want your fire to go out at night because you got to wake up. So I think that's a big one. Some people are really good with BO drill, but I still think that's not worth the trade off. Yeah, well, I was really into bringing a bow. I mean, you do need practice with a bow to be effective with it. But I can't tell you how much time I spent enjoying myself just hiking through the woods, because I could maybe shoot a squirrel or maybe get a grouse.
- [106:48]
Tim Ferriss
Well, that's something that stood out to me, is that. And I think one of the stronger competitors in season seven did something very similar where it wasn't that you would necessarily go out on a dedicated large mammal, or let's just say you wouldn't go out on a dedicated hunt, but if you went out to do anything, you just bring the bow, Take the bow.
- [107:07]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. Because it's like on your way to your fishing spot or on your way to get firewood. And it just gives you always something to do and it gives you always that, oh, is there a rabbit or is there something. So you're kind of having more. You're more engaged. Whereas if I didn't have hadn't taken the bow, it would have been a lot of time where it's like, boy, do I do.
- [107:24]
Tim Ferriss
How many arrows are you allowed to bring?
- [107:26]
Jordan Jonas
Not nine. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know why. Seems like a lot or a little. I don't know if they chose nine.
- [107:35]
Tim Ferriss
Long debate that landed on nine.
- [107:37]
Jordan Jonas
But that's actually substantial number of arrows. I never had an issue with what.
- [107:41]
Tim Ferriss
Type of tips did you bring?
- [107:43]
Jordan Jonas
So I brought blunt tips, which are judo points, except they weren't specifically judo points to get into nuance. But, yeah, you don't want a sharp blade when you're shooting small game because you don't want to just shoot right through the arrow animal. You want to hit it and blunt force kind of to knock it out and kill it. And so for small game, I had five of those, and then I had Four broadheads which are just sharp blades.
- [108:08]
Tim Ferriss
What type of, how many blades?
- [108:10]
Jordan Jonas
Two blade. They were vpa, like just solid steel broadheads. Just so that they were tough and I could, yeah, sharpen them on the fly and I all that.
- [108:22]
Tim Ferriss
So the moose corralling or fencing, I mean fencing gives people an image that maybe is not exactly the right image, but animals are really good at taking the path of least resistance.
- [108:35]
Jordan Jonas
It's something you employ when you're trying to snare them. When you're trying to do anything to catch an animal, you just take advantage of the fact that we all take the path of least resistance.
- [108:43]
Tim Ferriss
So what do you do?
- [108:45]
Jordan Jonas
So I was actually out there. I'd done a lot of calling, a lot of, of placing my shelter in the proper wind location and doing all this to make, try to make a moose encounter happen. And I had set up a trip wire that would signal a tin can so that it would like if a moose came by I would know. And then I went out, had a 40 yard shot at a moose and I missed. And long story short, it was a big fail on my part. But I remember watching that moose run away just like, oh, you idiot. Like, how'd you do that? You know, you get used to, to screwing up and failing when you're in the woods like that by yourself. Whining isn't going to help. There's nobody else you can blame anything on. It's like you literally better solve your problem or you're screwed. So I was like, I was disappointed I missed the moose, but at the same time I was immediately, it's still running away. I was like, how do I make this happen again? It just made me more determined to learn from what I just did. And then as I was watching it run away, it just kind of dawned on me that there was, I mean, I don't know how far apart but say 500 yards. You know, there's just kind of hills, two hills. It's not like they were cliffs or anything, but hills. Animals are going to go through the low point there because it's easy. And then I just remember, oh, we built those fences in Russia. Like should I really? Because what had happened is it had come on a kind of unexpected path. So I wasn't really quite set up to get them, but I was like, well, I guess I'm not here to starve. I'm here to like make it happen. Like action oriented person in that way. So I went over there and decided to try to build one of those fences and funnel the Because I remember even the natives saying before guns, they used to funnel animals with fences like that.
- [110:23]
Tim Ferriss
Can you explain when you say fence, that might involve chopping down some saplings, kind of knocking them over.
- [110:31]
Jordan Jonas
Basic. Yep.
- [110:32]
Tim Ferriss
So that you're creating obstacles. Something like a moose does not want to have to step over or navigate. So they go kind of where you intend them to go.
- [110:41]
Jordan Jonas
Yep, yep. So I had kind of set up the same tin can alarm system. And then I had found a nice shooting bush that I could shoot from and get to with relative cover. And then I built a fence. But again, it was just. I hadn't even finished it when it ended up working. But it was just, you know, in the, with the natives, we do four rows. So four rows of, you know, arm thickness logs kind of stacked in such a way that they hold up into a fence looking.
- [111:09]
Tim Ferriss
Okay. So it did look like.
- [111:10]
Jordan Jonas
It did look like a fence when it's done. But I just initially did one rung, you know, like so the first rung and ran it all the way across.
- [111:19]
Tim Ferriss
How long did that take to create?
- [111:21]
Jordan Jonas
Probably a couple days.
- [111:22]
Tim Ferriss
I was gonna say.
- [111:22]
Jordan Jonas
It sounds like. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of work. And I was like, it was a calorie risk and expenditure. But it was clear I wasn't gonna win if I was starving. And so I was just. I wanted a lot like get food. And so I built that funnel. And then actually not long after, I was out pulling again. I hadn't even finished it yet. I was pulling a rabbit out of a snare of all things, and I heard that can clank. I was like, oh, what is. Something's coming. No way. Ran over there, snuck up to the bush and that moose just came strolling along my fence to the opening where I was. And it worked amazingly well. It was the morning after I had spent the whole evening calling the moose and was able to put an arrow in it.
- [112:01]
Tim Ferriss
And what was the distance on that?
- [112:03]
Jordan Jonas
Like 24 yards.
- [112:04]
Tim Ferriss
See, I mean that's like, that's the payoff, 40 yards. I mean, look, I, yeah, recurve.
- [112:10]
Jordan Jonas
I mean I do a lot of.
- [112:11]
Tim Ferriss
Recurve and I would not put money on myself for 40 yard shot on a moving target.
- [112:16]
Jordan Jonas
Nor would I. But when you're starving. Yeah. Oh yeah. So you should have a couple shots. It's actually doable. You can kind of correct. But in my miss, I had only had one arrow with me at the time. So. Yeah, so I hit it and it was actually felt like a really good shot. But he took off. So you know, I'm gonna wait an hour, let him kind of just calmly, you know. If you're bow hunting, one thing you realize is like a lot of times the animal doesn't see you when you shoot it and it's quiet and it gets hit, it doesn't know what happened. So it's gonna run over somewhere and like lay down. It doesn't feel good. And so usually that first place it lays down because it doesn't think it's getting chased per second, say it just lays there and then it slowly bleeds out and it's, you know, about as calm of a way you can probably go as a wild animal. But what happens if you get too eager and start running after this animal you put an arrow in is it'll, if it sees you, it'll then know it's getting chased and they'll get this second wind and just take off and run. And by then they'll no longer be bleeding as much. And very often people lose animals like that. So fortunately I was aware of that, waited a good long time.
- [113:27]
Tim Ferriss
You waited a while also. I mean, more than an hour.
- [113:29]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, that was about an hour. And then I. Well, and then I started tracking it and. Great blood trail. And then it just started to dry up and the ground had been like an old burn and so it was hard and there weren't tracks and I was like, no way am I going to lose this mood. You start getting stressed, like, no way. And that lost its blood trail and it was just sitting there thinking. I was like, well, the last thing I can do is it's going to take the path of least resistance once again, particularly when it's wounded. So I just, I did it a few times where I stood in the woods and then you just kind of walk through as if you were going to go, where does it take you? And go with the flow. And sure enough, you know, 500 yards up or whatever, there it was laying there. Oh, no way. Duck down. And it was still alive. And so I was 50 something yards away and it's like, man, I can either try to stick another arrow in it, in which case it's either going to run away, maybe I kill it, or maybe it charges me. And you got a 30% chance of each. So I said my best bet is to just watch it and let it calmly finish its process. And so that was a very long couple hours, honestly, watching it. It would stand up and I'd. My heart would sink like, no, no, no. And then it would lay back down like like, ah, yes, it was stand up, very emotional roller coaster. And finally it stood up and tipped over and we were talking about earlier, but the joy that I felt was irreplaceable and I almost can't match it. Just that demon of starvation that for three weeks now, just chewing out. You're going to starve. You're going to starve. Slayed that.
- [115:04]
Tim Ferriss
How much meat do you get off a moose like that?
- [115:07]
Jordan Jonas
Oh, it was hard to say. I probably had, I be a little bit guessing, maybe four or five hundred pounds, I don't know.
- [115:13]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah, it's a big animal.
- [115:13]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, big animal. And then you have all the bone marrow and the brain and organ stuff. Talk about, I don't know if people like eating liver, but I got myself sick of it. You got the liver the size of my body and there's no way to preserve it, so you got to eat that thing first.
- [115:32]
Tim Ferriss
Why can't you preserve the liver versus other things?
- [115:34]
Jordan Jonas
Usually things that are really bloody have a lot of blood in them, spoil fast. So same with like fish. If you catch a fish, there's a blood line in there that you want to scrape out or it'll spoil. And the gills carry blood, so you want to rip those out or it'll spoil. Any animal that you're going to preserve, you just want to make sure it's bled really well. And liver, for whatever reason, is just saturated. Saturated. And there's no way to drain it, you know. No, man. Plenty of vitamins there for a while.
- [116:06]
Tim Ferriss
God, I'm just thinking of the OD of vitamins that you have.
- [116:09]
Jordan Jonas
I know, yeah. It's a little bit of a concern.
- [116:11]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah. For you adventurous eaters out there, don't eat a polar bear liver in one sitting.
- [116:16]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah.
- [116:17]
Tim Ferriss
Fatal vitamin A will do you in. So you mentioned you had some fat stolen. Noticed some very unique earrings on your wife this morning. These may tie together.
- [116:33]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, they do.
- [116:34]
Tim Ferriss
What are these?
- [116:35]
Jordan Jonas
So happens.
- [116:36]
Tim Ferriss
What were the earrings, man?
- [116:37]
Jordan Jonas
So you get, you know, you're out there and you're. Things are going well, but you're still living on the edge, you know, and little mistakes can be the difference between surviving or not. And so, you know, even the process of keeping yourself hydrated like we talk about, is, is elaborate and involved and thought out. Walk into your fishing hole, it's like, oh, I better take some ash so I can sprinkle on the really icy spots. And, you know, everything's thought out and. And so the last thing you need is this whole extra variable coming in and adding A bunch of difficulty. Well, one morning I went out and I had set my meat out on a shelf with this like kind of half hearted. Not half hearted, but you know, maybe a bear will come. And if a bear comes, I can shoot that from my shelter so I could maybe double up and get it. Almost like a ready made bait pile. But I hadn't even really thought about the fact is that there's wolverines up there and that they might show up and I might not hear it or notice it as much. And so I came out one morning and I stored probably 90,000 calories worth of fat in this gallon jug. I don't know how much is in a gallon, but full gallon of fat. And I came out and it was the day I was like, okay, I'm going to render that fat. And I started looking around like, what are these tracks? Like, huh, that's interesting. And then you slowly start to have something dawn on you. Like, no. And then I've noticed my jug was gone. And then I was like, oh, those are wolverine tracks. And like, oh no, it's like ran down the tracks, you know, pointless. That thing's long gone. And so I came back and I was like, oh no. I'm like, got a wolverine here. And one thing you notice about the woods, when you have meat, every forest freeloader knows you have the meat. And so like all the jays and all the, you know, the wolves were coming around and the wolverine now and just everybody's coming to get your meat. And that wolverine, they're known as being some of the most ferocious animals, animals on earth and just they're like that honey badger video everybody's seen, but they're much larger and on steroids.
- [118:36]
Tim Ferriss
It's like a. I guess it's technically in the weasel. It's like if you took a weasel and put it on every performance enhancing drug imaginable like Dolph Lundgren and Rocky IV and gave it on top of that just like a very irritable, combative demeanor.
- [118:56]
Jordan Jonas
I mean they're not huge, like £40 or whatever, but they fight off wolf packs. They take down full grown moose.
- [119:02]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah. So just think about that for a second, guys. 40 pound animal. How much does a moose weigh?
- [119:08]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, like a thousand pounds.
- [119:09]
Tim Ferriss
I mean, that's insane.
- [119:11]
Jordan Jonas
You just grab on and there's been stories of them holding onto a moose's neck for days until the thing suffocates of blood loss and dies. Just like.
- [119:21]
Tim Ferriss
So terrifying.
- [119:22]
Jordan Jonas
And so they make up for their size and just being aggressive. And I Was my first time of really dealing with one like that. And so. And I was. He kept surprising me with how bold he was. You know, kind of figure, okay, that'll take care of it. And then all of a sudden, whoa, Right in front of me. You know, you run by and grab a chunk of meat and run off. No way. And so basically there was. It came down to the fact that it was either me or him on this island. And that was very clear. And he was claiming my meat and this and that. And I made a long trip wire again for him. And with the can. With the can, which proved to be a really useful tool. And then one night, I heard that thing clank. Came out of my shelter. This was after the previous night of the similar situation happening. And I didn't take a shot at the wolverine because he was behind a bush. And so this next night, I was like, if I get a chance, I'm going to take it. Came out and he was behind a bush. I could see his eyes glowing and. And I just sent an arrow in there and it ricocheted through and hit him. But I could see him spinning around. I didn't know what was exactly how I had hit him. So I just grabbed the ax and ran over there. And I got over there and he lunged at me. And I could still.
- [120:32]
Tim Ferriss
I can see, like, pinned him to the ground.
- [120:33]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, but he had, like, been pinned to the ground. And the part of the arrow was stuck in the ground and part of it was hung up in the alders. So it, like, caught his lunge and I swung and. And it eviscerated him. And then he spun around and was, like, grabbing at his own injury. And then I swung again and again, you know, But I definitely have this mental image of his teeth and his jump right at me. I could just see his face. It was good.
- [120:57]
Tim Ferriss
He was pinned.
- [120:58]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it was good. He was pinned. I mean, I think I would have still won, but it would have been a lot more of a. We would have both suffered a lot more.
- [121:05]
Tim Ferriss
I think you would have suffered a lot more.
- [121:10]
Jordan Jonas
I was hoping I would win, but no, it was. It was intense. It was a very primal moment. That's all I could say about it. Like, I was. The moose was so thoughtful and the. And the wolverine was just one of those things where you're like, what just happened? Like, that was crazy. I can't believe that just happened. Anyway, it solved this problem that had been harrowing me for weeks by that point. It was pretty limiting.
- [121:33]
Tim Ferriss
His claws have been turned Into.
- [121:35]
Jordan Jonas
And so I had to make some earrings out of those claws and gift them to my wife. They're pretty nice.
- [121:41]
Tim Ferriss
So to bring in something that was. I don't think people would pick up on watching season six. There's a point where, as I think you put it to me, when we were out in the woods, you were like, in effect, up to that point, you'd been making plans, executing the plan, man. Sort of living on offense, if that makes sense. But you kill a wolverine, and so there's this kind of mystery in the show people might not immediately pick up on. Which is not the only wolverine around. Right.
- [122:17]
Jordan Jonas
We were allowed to kill one wolverine.
- [122:19]
Tim Ferriss
Well, that's the thing, right? You had, like, tags.
- [122:21]
Jordan Jonas
You still have to follow these rules.
- [122:23]
Tim Ferriss
It's not something that is.
- [122:24]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, yeah. I wasn't able to kill everyone omitted.
- [122:28]
Tim Ferriss
From the final cut.
- [122:30]
Jordan Jonas
I only had about a day of relief before I heard another wolverine. I was like, no. But this time I was in defense. And it just so happened to line up with the time of year where I had this very tangible mental shift that went from me being in that. You know, when you're in fight or flight. I was in fight. I was in, like a proactive mode, like you say, making plans, making things happen. Well, now the ice was freezing on the lake, and I couldn't go out and fish. And so. Couldn't fish.
- [122:56]
Tim Ferriss
At least in the normal way.
- [122:58]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, in the normal way. I couldn't even go walk on the ice to ice fish yet.
- [123:02]
Tim Ferriss
Right.
- [123:02]
Jordan Jonas
So there's a couple week period there where it's just hard to fish. And then I had all the rabbits I needed. Honestly, I had so much protein with the moose that there's no reason for me to go kill or snare rabbits. So I didn't do that.
- [123:16]
Tim Ferriss
Also, AKA toilet paper, right?
- [123:18]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. They went great.
- [123:19]
Tim Ferriss
What did you use for toilet paper?
- [123:21]
Jordan Jonas
The rabbit feet. It was quite luxurious. Your imaginations can carry the rest. And then this wolverine came, and I had to only play defense. And it was a very tangible shift that I went from being control of my own destiny to all of a sudden being on this, what felt like a downhill trajectory. It's like I've collected everything I can collect, and now I just see what happens and try to defend against the wolverine. And all I can do is wait for the ice to. You know, it felt like a very different frame of mind, and that was a more difficult period to get through.
- [124:00]
Tim Ferriss
I mean, all these animals have optimized to steal food, right? Yeah, that's all they do scavengers and so especially something like wolverine. It's like you can take the bark off of the pillars holding up your elevated platform.
- [124:13]
Jordan Jonas
But yeah, I made a cool platform. The Evenki had showed me. You know, they built a bunch of them with the natives and. And participated in the labor season.
- [124:20]
Tim Ferriss
Almost killed himself trying to copy that.
- [124:22]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, there's a certain technique to how to build them, which was useful to know to do it safely. But you're also calculating like not using unnecessary calories. And so I should have finished it. There's actually a you box in that raised platform and then you build a box on top and it's pretty everything proof. But of course, again, that wolverine kept surprising me. So. So I had built the platform, done a few tricks to try to keep it from getting up there and then it got up there. By then it was like, shoot, I should have built the thing. But anyway, so yep, learning on the fly and trying to react accordingly.
- [124:59]
Tim Ferriss
Most people in modern life, they have their. I'm making this up, right? Random meal, but they'll like salmon or chicken breast, some veggies maybe, maybe some pasta or sweet potato, who knows. But you mentioned the fat being stolen.
- [125:18]
Jordan Jonas
Oh yeah.
- [125:20]
Tim Ferriss
And people can look up something called rabbit starvation too. But how important is fat?
- [125:25]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, you learned that really fast also. And that was the first time just solely living off the land that I had where I didn't have any noodle backup or anything like that. And so for an extended period of time. So I, I was curious how long you could live off a rabbit. I was curious all this kind of stuff. And what I learned quite quickly was your body needs fat right away. And every day you're burning your fat reserves or fat you're bringing in the protein. It's actually more attainable out there. There's a lot of little animals and a lot of things, even mushrooms have protein in them. But the fat is the bottleneck of survival for sure. And so that's why we love it, I guess. But it just proved and it was so interesting to observe the animals, how honed everybody was in on just the fat. The wolverine, the crows, the jays, everything would just try to get the fattiest part of your fish or your eyeballs. Eyeballs, brain skin. And they would leave the chunks of meat like a big fish, they'd strip to strip the skin off. Eat kind of the fatty belly area.
- [126:29]
Tim Ferriss
The same thing too, right? Like when they're grabbing, grabbing salmon. If so you can learn they're plentiful enough. They eat the brain leave all the meat.
- [126:38]
Jordan Jonas
Yep, it's pretty interesting. So, yeah, that's the fuel of the forest out there.
- [126:46]
Tim Ferriss
All right, so let's talk about some new projects. Well, first of all, not really first of all, but lest I forget, where can people get one of these incredible axes? I have one. People do not just run around your living room swinging this like a toy. It's not a toy, but it's a tool. But it's a uniquely designed.
- [127:08]
Jordan Jonas
I don't.
- [127:08]
Tim Ferriss
Want to say all in one, but multi purpose tool.
- [127:10]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah. I think if people take the time to learn it and learn its nuances, you'll love it. But there's a learning curve to it because it is like a kind of a finely tuned machine machine. But@jordanjonas.com I have a website, Jordan Jonas and jordanjonas.com there's/ axe. You can get that. There's two versions of. There's a. This is a little bit smaller version. It's easier to carry when you're backpacking and stuff. And then I have like the fuller, bigger version that if you're on the farm or car camping, things like that has a little more heft and more. All right.
- [127:47]
Tim Ferriss
And then if people. And you and I have to book some time before this goes live so that I don't screw myself here. But if people want to experience what it's like to go into the wilderness with you, which I highly recommend, if you can do it, guys, you will learn a ton. You will not be able to absorb everything. Like there's going to be a lot that you pick up and are able to practice, which was so fun. Not just some of the finer details of fundamental survival skills, but learning how to use a relatively simple tool like a tenkara rod. But just learning how to utilize a simple tool.
- [128:31]
Jordan Jonas
Well. Right.
- [128:34]
Tim Ferriss
Same with the axe. So how can people learn more about.
- [128:37]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, same deal. It's like the Instagram follow along YouTube. Jordan Jonas pushing in Instagram. Yeah. And jordanjonas.com is where I have access to sign up for courses and sign up for. There's hunts available there and stuff that people can guide you you on. But yeah, they do book pretty quick. Like this season's booked. But it's like I'm all about taking people out on private trips and stuff. You just have to kind of get in early or wait for my schedule to come out for next year and try to squeeze in. I love them, man. It's been such a cool way to share what I love. I talked about it earlier with the purpose. It's kind of. I have this stage of my life. The purpose is defined and trying to share the lessons that I've gained with others. And I really enjoy it, find it meaningful, and I know people get a lot out of it, so I would love to see some folks out there.
- [129:31]
Tim Ferriss
So speaking of purpose, the book, what are you up to? Why write a book?
- [129:38]
Jordan Jonas
My wife and I talk about it fairly often, that it's like, we have a life that is very good, very full, and on a lot of levels, I would say, emotionally, spiritually, on the field, family, it's a big blessing. When I was on Alone, too, it kind of struck me. I was like, this is a. Well, how's this situation that's so difficult or, I mean, even life changing for people? It just kind of felt like another trip to Russia. Like, it felt very normal for me. I was like, I wonder what prepared me in life to make this kind of unusual situation seem normal.
- [130:11]
Tim Ferriss
And just to provide the counter to that. I mean, people break on this show right, in a lot of different ways, sometimes a very dramatic fashion.
- [130:24]
Jordan Jonas
And so it made me a little bit introspective about what had prepared me for it. Well, and in thinking about those things, I was like, man, there really are some patterns of my being that have created. And Tim, if you guys listen, know he's really good at naming things and putting a place on it, but have created, like, a reservoir of resilience that I can tap into and that is well exercised. And I just thought it would be really interesting to share with people through the story of my life and all these kind of fun stories, but also some of the keys to living a life well, really. But by building resilience, that'll help that. And what is interesting is you want to build that resilience before you find yourself in the situation, because once you find yourself in the situation situation, it's often a little late. And so the key is to come through hard times and trials. Anybody can get through it, but you want to get through it and be positive and be putting light into the world. So it's me trying to help, like your grandparents, like my grandparents, like my dad. It's me trying to help people learn the lessons that I've learned that might help make their reservoir of resilience, you know, fill up so that they're able to confront things as they come. So it's a fun project. I got Harper Collins and I partnered up on it, and it'll be what I work on this year. So it's been fun starting when's the.
- [131:54]
Tim Ferriss
Tentative pub date plan? Any idea?
- [131:57]
Jordan Jonas
No early I started 2027.
- [132:00]
Tim Ferriss
It's exciting.
- [132:01]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, it is exciting. First book so it's a fun new project.
- [132:05]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah, I'm gonna For people who I really encourage people to watch season six and seven, there's a Reddit thread titled can we agree that Jordan from season six is the best contestant to ever play the game? And it just goes on and on and on and on.
- [132:20]
Jordan Jonas
You'll find some disagreement.
- [132:23]
Tim Ferriss
Yes, I mean it's Reddit. It's Reddit, so of course there's plenty of disagreement. But you mentioned hardship and earlier this morning we were chatting because I was is I was in Tennessee and was with very very skilled podcaster and kind human Sean Ryan. Oh yeah, and found this folded up piece of paper in the chair I was sitting in and ended up being a copy of the Serenity Prayer. And I have long been a fan of the Serenity Prayer, in part because it has echoes of and reinforces a lot of my reading and stoicism. What I didn't realize is that what I thought was the Serenity Prayer is actually just a small piece of it. Are you able to pull it up in your phone by chance?
- [133:14]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, let me. It's a great prayer. I'll read the full thing here. It says, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Then it goes on. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace, taking as he did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that he will make all things right if I surrender to his will so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with him in the next, has a lot of interesting concepts. There's, you know, not everyone but most people are familiar with a start, the very happy beginning. The next one is like living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. There was that lesson I got slapped with on alone, whereas I'm worried about the future and word that ended up not coming and then accepting hardship as the pathway to peace, as we were discussing this morning, it's quite a profound bit of wisdom in that.
- [134:15]
Tim Ferriss
There's a lot in there, right? I mean, some of my favorite maybe concepts, maxims from Buddhist philosophy, from Stoicism. It is so neatly wrapped into the serenity Stoicism. It's so beautifully put and it just kind of blew my mind that I had such a partial understanding of it because I only knew, I think like most people, the very beginning and not the real rest. Jordan is there. People can find you@jordanjonas.com J O N A S they can find you on Instagram and YouTube. Obojarna makes me laugh every time I say it. Is there anything else you'd like to say? Anything you'd like to add? Ask of my audience We've all been.
- [135:05]
Jordan Jonas
Noticing lately that the political division is ramping up more and more. I've been thinking a lot about the idea that so many people I know and love over the years have vastly divergent, diverging political opinions. But when you filter each other through politics, you're really likely to see people as avatars of an ideology rather than as fellow humans. And I see that right now with seems like with immigration's the hot topic at the moment. Of course I believe we should keep track of immigration and who comes in and people who take advantage of the system shouldn't because there's a social contract contract and a trust that has to be shared and maintained in a society. But at the same time I have a personal belief based on my faith that I should help those in need when I have the ability. So in my personal life I've chosen to take on for example in my case a couple who was were Russian asylum seekers didn't want to go to the front in Ukraine so they fled. But I don't expect others to be forced via the government and taxation to live out my morality. And I don't judge or think ill of those who don't because I know there is a genuine sacrifice there. So I don't use politics to vicariously fulfill my moral obligations that I feel good about myself without having to make the personal sacrifices that a personally lived out ethic in the world requires requires. If I have the government fulfill my morality, it costs me nothing and I can even find myself in a situation where I'm judging people who might actually practically be doing more to bear the actual burden of what I think is right in the world. So I think if more people approach their morality on a personal level actively, but also taken responsibly for it in their lives lives. The reality has a way of tempering the extremes and it cuts in every direction. If someone on the right has a really strong opinion about abortion, it's like the foster children adopt support single moms. If someone on the left has a really strong opinion about wanting an open border, well take in an Immigrant family, support them, you know, using your own means and social connections. Get to know the complexity that comes when you do all that. And you'll find you're, you'll actually understand people that don't because it is a sacrifice and you'll be less judgmental and probably less self righteous. So it's something I've been thinking about a little bit lately. Working that out is my favorite part of my spiritual path of Christianity. It's like I don't have a law, like I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Usually I'm supposed to filter like the real world through this ideal of like love your neighbor as yourself, love the Lord your God. And in doing so I'm constantly like, what does it mean to love your enemy? Like that's not realistic. Like what's it mean to give to everybody of ask. That's not realistic. But it makes me wrestle with this thing and in that I actually have that it all comes to life. Whereas I could have chosen to throw it out at some point and throw all that wrestling out with it, but I would have lost a lot of what provided provides meaning and value in my life also. And yeah, so I don't know, working that out in your life is super valuable.
- [138:34]
Tim Ferriss
It strikes me, I mean this framing of wrestling with God and look, I know I'm getting over my skis here a bit, but it's the people who wrestle with X who foster a type of introspection that I think think often leads to decisions that are better aligned with their truest of true values.
- [138:57]
Jordan Jonas
Right, right, right. That gets a little dangerous when you know for sure. And so it's embraced that struggle, I guess.
- [139:06]
Tim Ferriss
Yeah, man, I don't know attribution, but it's like admire the seeker of the truth. Beware the person who's found the truth.
- [139:13]
Jordan Jonas
Yeah, right.
- [139:14]
Tim Ferriss
I mean there are times when it's like to have solid values or principles that you choose to live your life by, but at the same time to wrestle and ask questions under what circumstances would this not be right? And to cross examine. It's asking a lot of people. I recognize it's asking a lot of.
- [139:34]
Jordan Jonas
Anyone because it's easy to just have a formula to follow the highest path is to work it out.
- [139:45]
Tim Ferriss
Well, I admire how you have tried to work it out. I think it's a very thoughtful approach. It's not an easy approach and I just love what you do in the world, man. I feel like you're reintroducing people to a lot of core evolved sensitivities that make humans human. And when you do that, the abstractions and the concepts that people are willing to go to blows over on social media just fall away as what they are, which is typically some type of artificial line in the sand that people have chosen and been encouraged to take on as some type of team identity. And that just falls away when you simplify things and put people in an environment where they can see that. I think it's really beautiful. And people don't have to live in Montana to do that. There are ways to seek it out. So I appreciate you taking time on the show, man. It's great to see you.
- [140:49]
Jordan Jonas
Thanks Tim. It's been fun getting to know you and hanging out with you in the woods and here and really enjoyed it. It's been fun.
- [140:56]
Tim Ferriss
I'm excited, man. I can't wait to pack in my own axe now next time and make absolutely sure I don't stick it into.
- [141:03]
Jordan Jonas
My foot.
- [141:06]
Tim Ferriss
So it'd be continued. Thanks, Jordan. And for people listening, we'll link to all sorts of things in the show Notes at Tim Blog Podcast Podcast. Just search Jordan and there may be one other Jordan and you can certainly search Jonas. There's not going to be another Jonas. He'll pop right up. Until next time. As always, just be a bit kinder than is necessary. To others, yes, but also to yourself. To quote Jack Kornfield, if your compassion does not include yourself, then your compassion is incomplete. Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off and that is five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between 1 and a half and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. Something to think about if you'd like to try it out. Just go to Tim Blog Friday. Type that into your browser. Tim Blog Friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. Back in the day this was 2004. Maybe I had someone approach me in a coffee coffee shop and said G' day mate and introduce himself. Who was that? It turned out to be founder of AG1. Believe it or not, way back in the day and people often ask me what has survived. After 20 plus years of testing every supplement under the sun, just about what actually has stayed in the rotation in the toolbox this episode sponsor AG1 is at the top of that very, very short list. I started using it close to 15 years years ago when it was still called Athletic Greens. I put it in the four hour body, didn't get paid to put it in there and it's outlasted almost everything else that I've tried. One scoop covers your nutritional bases, right? Fills the gaps. You want to eat good food, of course, but 75 plus ingredients including probiotics, B vitamins and whole food nutrients act as in my opinion, pretty cheap nutritional insurance. I take it first thing every morning with cold water and at this point it's automatic like brushing my teeth. If you're looking for one simple daily habit that supports gut health and fills common nutrient gaps, this is where I'd start. Right now. New subscribers to AG1 get a free welcome kit worth $87 including AG1 and AGZ travel packs. That's for sleep, it's actually great and vitamin D3 plus K2. So that's a whole bunch of free stuff worth 87 bucks. So check it out, take a look, visit drink ag1 and that's the number one. So drink ag number one.com Tim to check it out one more time. That's drinkag1.com Tim listeners have heard me talk about making before you manage for years. All that means to me is that when I wake up I block out three to four hours to do the most important things that are generative, creative, podcasting, writing, etc. Before I get to the email and the admin stuff and the reactive stuff and everyone else's agenda for my time. For me, I need to find people who are great at managing and that is where Crescent Family Office comes in. You spell it C R E S S E T. Crescent Family Office. I was introduced to them by one of the top CPG investors in the world. Crescent is a prestigious family office for CEOs, founders and entrepreneurs. They handle the complex financial planning, uncertain tax strategies, timely exit planning, bill pay wires, all the dozens of other parts of wealth management, just financial management that would otherwise pull me away from doing what I love most, making things, mastering skills, spending time with the people I care about. And over many years I was getting pulled away from that stuff at least a few days a week, and I've completely eliminated that. So express experience, the freedom of focusing on what matters to you with the support of a top wealth management team. You can schedule a call today@CrescentCapital.com Tim that's spelled C R E S S E T CrescentCapital.com Tim to see how Crescent can help streamline your financial plans and grow your wealth. That's crescentcapital.com Tim and disclosure, I am a client of Crescent. There are no material conflicts other than this paid to. And of course all investing involves risk, including loss of principal. So do your due diligence.