The Times Tech Podcast

Episode Date: July 3, 2025
Episode Title: Can a driverless car really cope with London traffic & is the big AI bromance over?
Hosts: Danny Fortson (San Francisco) & Katie Prescott (London)

Overview

In this episode, Danny and Katie explore two monumental shifts in the tech landscape: the tension between Microsoft and OpenAI surrounding artificial general intelligence (AGI), and the advancement of driverless cars in London through the eyes of Wave’s CEO, Alex Kendall. They unpack the economics and ego of the AI talent wars, the murky world of copyright and machine learning, and Katie takes listeners on a first-hand journey through central London in a fully autonomous vehicle. The episode also dives into what these advances mean for the future of urban life, law, and big tech.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Microsoft & OpenAI: Is the “AI Bromance” Over?

(03:29 – 09:14)

• The Strategic “Bromance” Under Pressure:
  • Microsoft and OpenAI’s once-cozy relationship is being tested as OpenAI’s valuation and ambitions skyrocket. Negotiations are tense, especially around how AGI would affect Microsoft’s rights and profits.
  • Quote (Katie Prescott, 03:17):
    “...this bromance between Sam and Satya is suddenly a little colder than it once was.”
• Clash Over AGI Definition and Rights:
  • OpenAI’s contract with Microsoft stipulates that Microsoft’s privileged access to new AI models ceases if true AGI is achieved. But what counts as AGI is vague and contested.
  • Quote (Katie Prescott, 05:17):
    “Sam Altman always says it’s around the corner ... Satya Nadella, back in February, rather poo-pooed the fact that it was coming: ‘us self-claiming some AGI milestone. That’s just nonsensical benchmark hacking.’”
• Implications for Tech Power Structures:
  • As OpenAI’s structure shifts and new funding arrives, Microsoft wants an actual stake in the company to secure its interests beyond current access agreements.
  • OpenAI’s board currently determines if AGI has arrived, which makes Microsoft “not that happy about it.” (Katie Prescott, 07:51)

2. The AI Talent Wars: Money, Brainpower, and the Next Gold Rush

(09:32 – 13:39)

• $100 Million Pay Packages:
  • Rumors abound of Mark Zuckerberg (Meta) offering nine-figure salaries to poach top AI engineers, with several high-profile OpenAI engineers reportedly jumping ship.
  • Quote (Danny Fortson, 10:58):
    “...apparently he’s offering up to $100 million to people, which is just ludicrous.”
• Wild Valuations & Hands-Off Investing:
  • Mira Murati, former OpenAI CTO, just raised $2 billion for a new startup without product or revenue.
  • Huge investment rounds are mostly being recycled right back into the hyperscalers (Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc.) via cloud contracts for AI training and serving.
  • Quote (Danny Fortson, 12:14):
    “Your Series A or your seed round is $2 billion, you know, and ... all of that money gets recycled right back into all the big hyperscalers...”
• Consequences of Salary Escalation:
  • Smaller startups simply cannot compete for AI talent. Talent is consolidating into a few well-financed giants (Google, Meta, Microsoft).

3. Copyright, AI, and the Law: Getty Images vs. Stability AI & the Anthropic Precedent

(13:58 – 18:27)

• Getty v. Stability AI (UK High Court):
  • Getty alleges its photographs were used without permission for AI training, even generating AI images with the Getty watermark.
  • The remaining issue: if AI models trained abroad are imported into the UK, does that constitute copyright infringement?
  • Quote (Danny Fortson, 15:28):
    “You’re…bringing in pirated materials. Like selling stolen goods in another country.”
• US Ruling: Anthropic & Fair Use:
  • The US judge mostly sided with Anthropic, ruling that digitizing and scanning legitimately purchased physical books (even millions of them) for AI training qualifies as fair use; using pirated books remains under scrutiny.
  • Quote (Danny Fortson, 17:29):
    “That buying of a book and then doing with it what you will is why in this, in this ruling, he’s like — basically, this is fair use. You’re fine.”
• Broader Implications:
  • Potential existential damages for companies found liable for copyright infringement.
  • Ongoing legal ambiguity and the race to “fiddle” through a solution.

4. Special Feature: Katie’s Driverless London Adventure with Wave

(20:24 – 44:57)

Introducing Wave

(21:49 – 23:08)

• Founded in 2017 by Alex Kendall and a fellow Cambridge PhD student.
• Different approach: Instead of hard-coding routes, Wave’s AI learns to drive via behavioral feedback and large-scale learning.
• SoftBank, Nvidia, Microsoft among major investors; now an international operation.

In-Car Interview: Road-Test in the Wild Streets of London

(24:19 – 44:19)

• “Sitting in the back, there was a safety driver up front... but he didn’t have to touch the car once.” (Katie Prescott, 24:23)
• Why London?
  • Deliberately chosen for its complexity (“medieval origins… merging, roundabouts, and inclement weather”) to build a system robust enough for any city (Alex Kendall, 26:26).
• AI That Reads Body Language:
  • Wave’s AI models not only recognize jaywalkers but also predict intent from body posture and movement.
  • Quote (Alex Kendall, 30:16):
    “One of the things we got very good at: predicting from the pedestrian’s body language... Does their body language look like they’re going to cross or not?”
• Global Advancement:
  • In the last year, Wave expanded to drive proficiently on highways, in Germany, Japan, and 70+ cities (31:01).
  • The technology has advanced dramatically, learning complex interaction — like hand signals from police or ambiguous merges — with general AI rather than specific rules (32:55).
• Personalizing Car “Personality”:
  • Level of assertiveness can be prompted, within safety boundaries.
  • Quote (Alex Kendall, 34:09):
    “You can prompt the AI and ask it to drive in the style you want… [but] within what’s safe.”
• Legislative Milestones:
  • The UK’s Automated Vehicles Act positions the country for driverless trials from 2027.
  • Regulatory frameworks still trail the US and Asia in some ways; market selection for rollout is a complex mix of “regulatory landscape, consumer adoption, manufacturing support…” (39:28).

The Human Element & The Promise of Change

• Alex Kendall describes the thrill and pride of watching Wave’s AI progress from Cambridge garages to London’s labyrinth.
• Quote (Alex Kendall, 42:25):
  “We’re still very early on in our novel, only in the first few chapters, and I found this just to be a whole adventure.”
• Katie notes the surreal feeling of riding as the steering wheel moves by itself:
  • “It’s very, very surreal … when you sit in the back of the car and see the steering wheel moving by itself.” (Katie Prescott, 45:24)
• Reflections on how autonomous vehicles might reshape car ownership, public spaces, and personal mobility, with a vision of more efficient, safer, and greener cities.

Notable Quotes

• Sam vs. Satya on AGI:
  “Us self-claiming some AGI milestone. That’s just nonsensical benchmark hacking.”
  — Satya Nadella, recalled by Katie Prescott (06:46)
• On AI Talent Escalation:
  “If I’m offering $100 million to individuals, but the prize is trillions — drop in the bucket, of course.”
  — Danny Fortson (11:05)
• On Copyright & Fair Use in AI Training:
  “Buying of a book and then doing…what you will is…fair use. You’re fine.”
  — Danny Fortson, summarizing Anthropic ruling (17:29)
• On AI Reading People:
  “The AI is able to actually predict…and understand how the world will evolve with very complex scenarios.”
  — Alex Kendall (30:20)
• Personal Reflection:
  “I get bored by long car journeys — I’d much rather use my time for something else…so being able to build autonomous systems is something that would please me as a customer.”
  — Alex Kendall (41:30)
• On the Surreality of Driverless Cars:
  “It is very, very surreal … when you sit in the back of the car and see the steering wheel moving by itself.”
  — Katie Prescott (45:24)

Key Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Opening banter, episode themes | - | 01:41–03:29 | | The Microsoft/OpenAI “bromance” and AGI clause | - | 03:29–09:14 | | AI talent wars, $100M salaries | - | 09:32–13:39 | | Copyright showdowns: Getty v. Stability AI, Anthropic US win | - | 13:58–18:27 | | Katie’s driverless car adventure: intro and company background | - | 20:24–24:19 | | In-car conversation: tech, training, scaling, urban challenges | - | 25:00–41:30 | | Reflection on the magic, implications, and future for London | - | 44:57–46:36 |

Tone & Style

The podcast combines humor and self-deprecating wit (“Well, just like a couple loser tech reporters...,” Danny Fortson, 01:49), playful banter about tech swag, and moments of awe at the acceleration of innovation. The interviews and discussions carry a friendly, geekily enthusiastic, and lightly skeptical tone — always questioning, but also clearly hyped by the scale of transformation.

Summary Takeaway

The episode captures a moment when foundational technologies — machine intelligence and driverless cars — are both accelerating and running into real-world frictions: power struggles, legal voids, and bumpy streets (literal and political). Listeners are left with the sense that AI’s next leaps will be decided as much by definitions, legal frameworks, and talent migration as by lines of code or rounds of venture capital. And for those skeptical that a driverless car can handle London’s chaos? Katie’s test drive with Wave suggests the future is nearer — and weirder — than you think.