← The Tom Woods Show
The Tom Woods Show
Ep. 2620 MAGA Needs Ron Paul, Right Away
00:50:38
Jack Hunter joins me to discuss the continuing importance of Ron Paul, who inspired, directly or indirectly, so many of the positive developments occurring today, but whose voice is needed to keep the current administration from going off the rails....
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- [00:02]
A
Get ready to take a flamethrower to the official narrative and learn what the elites don't want you to know. You're listening to the Tom Woods Show.
- [00:19]
B
Hey everybody, Tom woods here. It's episode 2620 of the Tom Woods Show. We got our old friend Jack Hunter from the Rand Paul Review. You also find him writing for basically every outlet there is. You, of course, are following him on so Called X. I apologize that my picturesque background that you all crave the aesthetics of is not present. In fact, I look like I'm in a prison. And I'm not too far off, by the way. I'm in a hotel room in New York City and as Jack and I were saying beforehand, they tend to be small and not particularly attractive. Well, this is not such a bad room, but there's no good place to record really. So this barren wasteland is actually the best shot I have. Jack, yours is much better.
- [01:04]
C
It works. Yes, this is my video backdrop with various Ron Paul libertarian and pro wrestling things as I do so well.
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B
It's funny you mention that because we're gonna, we're gonna talk. I mean, I, I know people think a couple of libertarians talking about Ron Paul. I think I have seen this episode before. Totally understandable. But in the course of doing so, no doubt we will be making reference to a certain occupant of the White House and talking about some current events. But we're doing this because, Jack, you're speaking at a YAL or that is, I don't want to speak in lingo here. Young Americans for Liberty event next month, April. And it has to do with, with Ron Paul's 90th birthday, which is coming up this year. And I'm speaking at the Ron Paul Institutes event this very weekend in Lake Jackson. So, Tom woods.com Lake Jackson and use coupon code woods, you get a discount. And I'm going to be talking about the connection between the Ron Paul movement and our present moment. Our present moment is not perfect set of circumstances, but it has some reasons for hope. It's not all black pill, black pill, black pill all the time. And I want to sort out what's what. And so we thought you and I were thinking about. Oh, we could talk about this, we could talk about that. But this topic is staring us in the face about the importance of this man, but also about maybe what parts of his message could we stand to get what lodged a little bit further into the old noodle than have been thus far.
- [02:42]
C
Absolutely.
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B
So this event in it's in Atlanta next month. So give people the details in case any Atlanta based Are middle aged Americans for Liberty allowed to attend these events?
- [02:53]
C
I hope so because I'm going to be speaking. So that works out. I think they knew how old I was when they asked me to speak. Yeah, it's going to be April 5th in Atlanta. Young Americans for Liberty who have the big national convention in August in Tampa, last year, past years, it's going to be in different Orlando. Excuse me. They're doing these regional city based conferences. So on April 5th in Atlanta, Georgia, Young Americans for Liberty is having a conference. Ron Paul will be there. It's in celebration of his upcoming 90th birthday, which isn't till August, but the Convention's in April, April 5th. And they asked me to speak. One of many speakers who are going to be talking about the Ron Paul movement and where we're at and where we've been and just paying tribute to the man who's given us so much, gives us, giv us so much to talk about as well.
- [03:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting to see his social media feeds and to see what's going on in the Ron Paul Liberty Report because even though his name has been suggested for the Presidential Medal of Freedom and his legacy has been honored by a lot of people in the president's circle over the past year or so, you know, you misunderstand the man if you think that means he's going to pipe down and think, well, you know, how can I criticize somebody who's been so kind to me for him, it's not about personalities. It really is about the ideas. If you get the ideas wrong, I'm sorry I have to criticize you. You know, so if you just got done saying not even a year ago that this bombing of Yemen does not have to occur and then you yourself go ahead and do it, I have to say you shouldn't be doing that.
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C
Right.
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B
Your first instinct was good.
- [04:28]
C
That's correct. You know, he and Dan McAdams say that every day when they call this president out, when he does things like what we're talking about in this moment when we're recording this is the US Bombing Yemen. Do we need another Middle Eastern war? But what's beautiful about that, Tom, is like you said, Ron Paul is somebody that Elon, Musk and Doe were looking towards, a mentor or part of their board or however you want to look at that they know he's out there and what he's saying. They know you're out there and what you're saying they know somebody, you know, like comic Dave Smith is out there and all these voices and they like and respect these people. When I say they, I'm talking about the administration and maybe influencers and movers and shakers around them. We're in this sort of political environment now, a lot of it thanks to Ron Paul, where you can criticize this president and people on staff or whatnot. Here. I know Don Jr. Pays a lot of attention to stuff, and certainly Ron Paul, you can say that. And maybe they take it to heart in a way that in the past, like in the Bush era, all Republicans, all conservatives would look at Ron Paul and be like, oh, there's crazy old Ron Paul saying not to be involved in these wars. He has an influence now, bigger maybe than ever in this Trump environment that is imperfect, and we're going to talk about that. But I think that's a big deal for people old enough, you and I, to remember when we had this burgeoning small movement that grew up organically with so many young people being attracted to Ron Paul and his ideas. Where we are now, we're sort of part of the furniture on the right. That's a very new thing for us. You have to be of a certain age to really appreciate that.
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B
And so given that, you know, we put in the time and we put in the sacrifices to get to a position like this, what good is it if we're just going to use it to be yes men? You know, what is that? They're playing yes men. Social media is strewn with them.
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C
Right.
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B
But what is needed instead are people whose credentials. You know, obviously, you can't say Jack Hunter is a commie.
- [06:19]
C
Right.
- [06:19]
B
You have a hard time making that case. Can't say that about me either. So people with our credentials now have an opportunity to say something other than great job, awesome. No, I would go, what good is it? What is the point of being here if we don't say the things that need to be said? So Ron Paul said is saying those things, because I know that Donald Trump had said that. The problem with Joe Biden and Yemen was that he was too much of a wimp and he didn't hit them hard enough. But obviously, there's more in common than different between Trump and Biden, because what they have in common is they're both bombing Yemen. You know, when we all know this is dumb and pointless, and it, you know, the arguments that they make for it don't ever add up, and we never hear what the real arguments are. It's very frustrating. Ron Paul has just come out and said, you got to stop doing this. And no one has criticized him. Now, granted, he's not in office, but his in, you know, his voice still carries influence with a lot of people.
- [07:19]
C
People pay attention. Look, Daniel Davis, who's wonderful, was supposed to get that position with Tulsi and the director of National Intelligence and be, you know, assist there. And that was stopped by who? Laura Loomer and Mark Levin were out there.
- [07:31]
B
We're going to talk about that. I have an episode where I'm going to talk to Kelly Vlejos about that because that's an outrage.
- [07:37]
C
Perfect person to talk to Kelly about that. That's an example of influencers that Trump respects that maybe we don't like, but he respects. And something was going to happen and then it didn't because he listened to them. I'm not saying that's the only thing. I'm not in the White House, but it seemed to have an effect. Well, the influencers we do like, whether it's Ron Paul or Dave Smith or you can have an impact, too. It is my understanding, according to POLITICO In 2017, when Donald Trump in his first term was considering bombing Iran at the time, and John Bolton was there at the time, and of course, all the experts in his administration were saying he needed to do this, it is my understanding it was not only the many conversations with Senator Rand Paul about, remember you said the Iraq war was a mistake. You don't want to repeat it. But I think specifically when that was about to go down, 2017, the US is about to bomb Iran. I think he talked this is according to Politico, to Tucker Carlson on the phone. Now, he respects Tucker Carlson just like he respects Mark Levin, apparently. And that thing happened with Daniel Davis. Tucker Carlson reportedly told him that day basically what Senator Paul had been saying. Remember, you promised not to do another stupid war like George W. Bush in Iraq. Well, Iran would be worse. And if you do this, it could be the beginning of it. Tucker told him that President Trump asked something about how many civilian casualties there might be. They were too high. And it was a combination of those things that made him not decide not to bomb. Now, Tucker Carlson's a name bigger than you or I. But the point is he's somebody that's in our orbit. We share a lot of foreign policy reviews. And on that day, Trump respected him enough to take his advice. That can happen either way with so many of us. And that's a different place for us to be as libertarians don't forget, even
- [09:13]
B
though he wasn't quite the Tucker Carlson of today, you no doubt remember that in 2008, the MC of Ron Paul's Rally for the Republic, which was held the same week as the GOP convention, he didn't want to use the term counter convention, but that's obviously what it was. Tucker Carlson was the host. I mean, he introduced me when I came out on stage, you know, so, you know, he is kind of, you know, whether he likes it or not, he's been in our orbit, at least tiptoeing around it for quite some time.
- [09:44]
C
He's been part of it. Hell, Tom, I can remember would that been about 2004 when you had both Pat Buchanan and Tucker Carlson on msnbc. So, you know, things change over time. I think. Tucker, I guess we probably have to go back to Ron Paul 2008. I think what you're seeing right now with the Trump phenomenon, the sort of populist uprising, for good or ill, this is where we are. There are good things and bad things and we can continue to talk about them. But I think this has been brewing on the right since around the mortgage crisis. You wrote that wonderful book Meltdown that I still recommend to people about what really happened there. I think Republicans were fed up. That sort of led the Ron Paul movement. You had the Tea Party movement then. You had Ron Paul 2012. Sarah Palin was somewhere in that mix. But the point is they didn't want the base I'm talking about, did not want another George W. Bush, another Dick Cheney, another Mitt Romney, which is what that is, another John McCain, which is what that is. They wanted something different. They wanted something populous. This was sort of mirrored in the Democratic Party eventually with what Bernie Sanders was doing and how the establishment and that party screwed over him. But the people want something different. Ron Paul has been there from the beginning of what's happening right now and throughout. And I would say it has as much impact right now as he's ever had. And that's something amazing to say about a man who's about to turn 90 and done so much already.
- [11:01]
B
Do you have any theories, by the way, as to why the Tea Party movement more or less fizzled out, but the Donald Trump movement did not fizzle out.
- [11:10]
C
It gets co opted. So look, Sarah Palin was a figure because Bill Crystal, you know, sent Randy Schuneman, who was a neocon foreign policy advisor, to kind of go school her about foreign policy. And they he saw the Tea Party Bill Crystal, populist element happening and John McCain is going to be the nominee. So what could you do? You gave him pale. Later when she got away from the campaign, she was a lot more anti war than she was with John McCain. As to what happened to the movement in general, I think it got co opted. You know, Conservatism Inc. Became a part of it. It just kind of that sentiment never went away and it burst back up with Trump in a bigger and even more organic way, you could say. And I think that was hard for the same establishment types to overcome. They like they thought they could do it with Jeb Bush years ago. That that didn't happen. You know, Rand Paul ran in 2016 not only to capitalize on his father's presidential runs, but he was supposed to be the libertarian populace and continue that. Nobody saw Donald Trump coming. So it was a different kind of populism we got for good or ill. But I think that's what happened to the Tea Party movement. I think you see a lot of what the Tea Party was going to be in the current GOP base in the Trump environment.
- [12:20]
B
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- [14:03]
C
I always think it's helpful, and I touched on this earlier during this interview, to look at where we used to be. I'm saying libertarians living in the United States and where we are now and the conversations we can have. We're talking about the United States bombing Yemen today. In 2008, that conversation would have been like, go George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. There's, there's conservatives thinks that's bad. Really? What is? They're not conservatives or liberal Democrats. That's they used to say about Ron hall or people like you or I, I was in talk radio at the time and the Bush Cheney neocon base would be like, why are you on conservative talk radio? You're a Democrat for basically saying anti war stuff. At the time, I was critical of the Bush administration. This was during the Obama administration, but we were still talking about those wars. Well, today, in the wake of President Trump bombing Yemen, which I think is bad, we don't want to start World War 3, which he's been warning against, there's this grand debate on the right with conservative figures, with libertarian figures saying, this is bad, we shouldn't be doing this. People close to Trump in his orbit saying this is bad, we shouldn't be doing this. And the people who think it's a great idea, you know, they're not marginalized exactly. But there's a conversation that's being had. Ron Paul's part of it that I couldn't have imagined. Even when ron ran in 2008 and 2012, you know, we thought if there was a President Ron Paul, this would be a different country and world. And the conversations we're having, but we kind of knew maybe that might not happen. Well, we didn't get that. We got Donald Trump, which we didn't suspect either. And the conversations that we had that were Ron Paul friendly, about foreign policy, about non interventionism, about restraint and realism, you can have them now and you can, despite what's happened with Yemen right now, you can net results and that's unprecedented.
- [15:47]
B
I think Trump's. Well, I don't know. There are different kinds of Trump supporters. Like there are some you can't take seriously correct, who adore every last thing he does even the things that contradict the other things, can't respect that. But, I mean, like, smart people like Dan McCarthy, like, he's a smart guy, of course, and he is, without a doubt, a Trump guy. And I think if we're thinking about people like that, those people are willing to say, Trump made a mistake. This was a misstep. But what we can also say about those people is that, frankly, they're better than he is. Like Don Jr. Is better than his father.
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C
Right.
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B
And that Don Jr. Wouldn't need to be told going to war with Iran is a really boneheaded and evil idea. He wouldn't need to be told that. So I. I wish he had a little bit more influence in all this, but it really is kind of like whoever he speaks to last, who makes a reasonably good case, you know, that's the position he's going to take. You know, I mean, whereas I would much rather have a Dan McCarthy I knew I could rely on, because he's thought everything through. You know, he's not just going on his gut.
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C
Yes. And I think Trump 2.0 is better than the first term already. Even with the things we don't like.
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even with the problems and geez, are they. Yeah, yeah.
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C
He's got a better team around him. I mean, when I voted for him this time, I was also voting for Tulsa Gabbard and RFK Jr. And Cash Patel and all of that for various reasons. You brought up our friend Dan McCarthy, who's probably the smartest Trump guy. I mean, when the New York Times wants somebody to write something favorable about Trump, they come see Dan. That's not, you know, blanket praise for the New York Times. That's blanket Praise for Daniel McCarthy. But something Dan does, and other people do this, that's instrumental and important in having influence and having some kind of platform and mattering is when Trump does good things. I'm a libertarian, you're a libertarian. We cheer those things. If Trump says he's for free speech and he's hypocritical, later we talk about that. But if he says it's bad for the federal government to censor us on social media, we say, yeah, that's good that you think that we shouldn't be doing that. When he doesn't bomb somebody or negotiated peace he's trying to have between Ukraine and Russia, we cheer those things. That's what we want to happen. The ceasefire in Gaza that Israel's now breaking. But Trump did something that was better than his predecessor. You hear those things. And I bring that up because there's a certain kind of political animal, and I'll just stick to libertarians. I have people on my social every day. I will say something positive about Trump. Like I just said, he's got Putin and Zelensky sitting down to negotiate a peace. This war can't go on. I'll say that. And there will be plenty of people who are like, oh, you love Trump. And I'm like, no, I love peace. We've been fueling this proxy war there for three years now. If a President Ron Paul is in there, this is what we would expect him to be doing. This is good. And there's a type of person that just can't bring themselves to say anything good about this president. So there's also the opposite, the type of person that no matter what Trump does, if he arrests pro Palestinian protesters and doesn't charge them with a crime, talking about the Justice Department, but keeps them, and it looks like just for their speech, they can't point any vandalism or any crime. They haven't been charged with the crime, well, that's bad. And there's a certain liberal type of MAGA person out there will pretend that's good. So it's important for people who are principled who can say when things are bad and things are good. But it's really important to say when things are good, because that's how you have the credibility with Trump himself, if he is able to hear it, but also people in his movement who may or may not listen to you based on how you behave, if that makes sense.
- [19:26]
B
Well, I went into this with realistic expectations, and I knew that I would have people every time Trump does something we don't like, telling me. See, we tried to warn you and. No, no, look, I knew these problems before you guys did. Like, I. I could predict every single thing about this administration that was going to make me crazy.
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C
Sure.
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B
I already know that. It's that I have to face reality. And the reality is I have these two choices, and one of them's absolutely catastrophic. And on the issues you're concerned about, that other one's not going to be any, really any better.
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C
Right.
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B
They might even be worse on some of the things that Trump is bad on. But going into this, I basically, I went in with, with two expectations that have been indeed met. Number one, he's not really going to care about the federal budget. Now, Doge is great, but you have to follow up. You can't just point things out. You have to follow up, on the other hand, I will say that the airline industry over the past four weeks has lost an enormous amount of value, like in the stock market.
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C
Sure.
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B
And that's in part because of the cuts. Something like 50% of government travel has been slashed. And apparently the airlines rely heavily on that. And it goes to show, by the way, this is why, along with my friend Troy Broussard, I absolutely stay away from airline stocks. If I were actually going to own stock, I would not own airlines because, number one, they rely on stuff like this. That can change. And plus, I would stay away from any company that's whose industry has ever been bailed out. Sure, you know, there's something artificial and fake about it. But anyway, the point is, in terms of the federal budget, I know he's not going to come and produce something that's really going to impress me or something that's going to even remotely get to the heart of this major, major fiscal problem that we're facing. I know that. I know that neither Biden nor Harris was ever going to do that. I know that no plausible Republican candidate was going to do that. I know Jeb Bush wouldn't have done it. Nobody was going to do it. Paul Ryan will give speeches about how we need to do something, but then he's not going to do anything either. So I keep saying on this show, I've reached a kind of a Zen level in how I think about federal spending. It's never going to be fixed, so I just don't worry about it. You know, I mean, I worry, but what's the point? I can't fix it. It will fix itself when the crisis comes, but until then, nobody's going to fix that. So I then look to candidates and say, well, could you fix maybe some of the other problems that we have in the country? And as you say, maybe foreign policy might be one of those. So that was one thing. The second expectation I had was that the administration would skew pretty heavily in favor of Israel. I mean, you know, Miriam Adelson paid good money for that, you know, So I fully expected that. And I figured it would probably swing 20% to 30% more heavily pro Israel than the previous administration, but it would still be more or less in the tradition of bipartisan support for Israel. That's gone back to Harry Truman. I figured that is just a given. That's the state of American political life right now. That's a given. That's not going to change in the short run. In the long run, it might. But in the short run, it's not going to. So if you come to me and say, well, it's terrible that, I mean, I, I, the Daniel Davis thing is just absolutely awful.
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C
Yeah.
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B
But that's not a deal breaker for me in the sense that I knew that was coming. That doesn't surprise me. It disappoints me. But I read the papers. I know what American politics is like. I expect that, unfortunately.
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C
Right. I'm right there with you. Like, when these things happen the way they happen, I'm never like, oh, I didn't see that coming. I am totally shocked that the.
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B
I better rethink my whole opinion on this.
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C
Yeah. But what I am optimistic about is the possibilities that are there that wouldn't be there under any administration of either party if the establishment was still in charge. Say what you want about Trump, but he's not the establishment. The establishment is worked hard to make sure he was not president again. And even the first time, I mean, look at all the lawfare and things they did to him in this. I would laugh every time a Democrat voter would say, you know, we can't reelect Donald Trump because he would be an authoritarian. I'm like, every way you would define being an authoritarian president, the Biden administration is doing right now, trying to throw his political opponent off state ballots, suppressing his speech, you know, putting them in all these lawsuits, trying to put his, your political opponent in jail. Those are the hallmarks of a banana republic, tin pot dictator. And that's what they did. But my joke was, well, you're not authoritarian if Biden does. It was basically their attitude. Here we are now what I think might be politically possible, Tom, and you're talking about, are they really going to do anything with the federal budget? I could see Elon Musk taking a good look at the Pentagon spending. I could also see him not. I could see, I'd be like, well, that's how it always is. But I could see them being brazen enough to actually go there and the people would make really mad to just deal with it to make them mad. You know, this is Trump's second term. He's not going to run again. But I think there's things that could happen now over the next three and a half years that would not have been possible if not what's going on now. Now, could it just be the conventional run of the mill, status quo that we're expecting? Yeah, you could even say that's probable. But we could change some things in a big way, too. One of the Primary things that bothers me right now, especially with these pro Palestinian protesters, a lot of whom I absolutely loathe and think are scumbags that actually are anti Semites. But it is a valid political position to be upset about what Israel's government is doing in Gaza and what's happened there and the. I would call it genocide, too. You should be able to have that view in the United States, whether you're a student or anybody else. I don't want to see people arrested for having that political viewpoint. Our First Amendment protects that. I fear that that's some of what's happening right now. Now, that bothers me for two reasons. Forget about the issue. Forget about Israel and Palestine. You should be able to have a political point of view and express it. The United States, under our First Amendment, even if you're not a citizen, that still applies to you. People are saying stupid things like, oh, Canadian tourists can't come here and speak their mind about politics because they're. I mean, that's just not how it operates. But why it really bothers me is for this entire 2024 election, we've seen, you know, in Europe and around the world, so many crackdowns on free speech. Our vice president, J.D. vance, went to Germany and spoke in Munich about Europe and its crackdowns on free speech and how dangerous that is and how they don't have a basic respect for just basic liberalism of which free speech is a part. And in the United States, Trump advanced, ran against a Democratic Party that they said would censor American speech, that tried to censor the president, that tried to censor our speech on X. We know that through the Twitter files, the Republican Party and what Trump and Vance were saying at the beginning of his administration and throughout the campaign, to me and Matt Taibbi has said this much better than I am right now, was sort of a last bulwark for free speech in the west, in a sense. I mean, what country has a First Amendment like we do or some version of it? Not really many, if any. If the Trump administration is now deciding that if you're pro Palestinian, we're going to call you a terrorist, or you're automatically pro Hamas, which isn't always true either, and we can arrest you. Is there anybody for free speech anymore? Is there any major political party that's going to protect it and champion it? You know, in the Democratic Party for the last four years, Democrats have come to see censorship as a positive value. That disinformation governance board that Biden floated and most Democrats were Like yeah, we can't have hate speech and misinformation, disinformation. Maybe there should be a federal agency that regulates this. You would watch the View after the election. I remember one of the women, I can't remember who, she said the problem with this election was the government couldn't regulate our speech. This is a Democrat voter that is rampant. They think that's normal now. The party used to be with the ACLU and free speech absolutism, that's absolutely gone on the right. You have even the president and many popular conservative figures standing up for free speech and then being hypocrites about it. That's better than the left who sees no value in the First Amendment free speech anymore. But at least you had the right who saw that it was good. We should be protecting it and championing it. Is that going away now with this mania with Palestine and Israel? I fear it is and it really bothers me.
- [27:54]
B
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- [31:16]
C
Yeah, I think he's instinctually anti. War might not be the right word, but he doesn't want to start war needlessly. I think he recognizes to the degree that America's been involved in all these needless, endless, stupid wars. I think he gets that. He's obviously imperfect. What we're talking about with the US Bombing Yemen right now, we had some of that in the first term, but it can be said in his first term he didn't start any new wars. That's important to him. He's bragged about it personally. Those of us who are non interventionists or realists or should appreciate that in him. We shouldn't be so anti Trump that we don't like the president being John Bolton, basically. I do think he has that in him. Where we go from here. I hope he doesn't start World War 3, but there is a pattern where he'll do something that based on look tough and then does like, something that we really like afterwards. Do you remember when he met with Kim Jong Un in North Korea and everybody slipped out about that? That was the worst thing in the world. No, that was actually the best thing in the world. I can't imagine a conventional Republican or Democratic president doing that, but he saw the importance of it. And that was after he threatened to, like, nuke him or something. I don't know. He was talking tough and then he goes and he does that. When Kamala Harris was running, she was calling and so was Nancy Pelosi, Trump, Putin's puppet and all this stuff. And I'm like, good God, your whole party's neocon. Now, this is a classic neocon tactic. Trump doesn't hear that. He's like, I gotta go talk to this guy. We gotta end this war. Call me what you want. He doesn't fall for that crap. That willingness to negotiate, to see the value of diplomacy as anybody who's remotely anti war inherently should see. Reagan saw it. People forget that the neoconservatives knew Gingrich was part of this crowd. John Pedorich certainly was in the 80s when Trump was wanting to meet with Gorbachev to do exactly what you said, Tom, to have less nukes in the world, because it scared the hell out of them. The new conservatives were basically saying that he was giving away America and being weak and whatnot. He didn't listen to him. And Reagan's foreign policy legacy is probably his greatest legacy as far as what he did with Russia and bringing peace and less nuclear weapons. I hope that's Trump's legacy as well. And I agree with you, Tom. I think his instincts. There was a police, a piece of Politico, I think it was in 2018, they said, I've cited Politico twice here. All my reputations down the drain. Says something like, senator Rand Paul and Donald Trump connect at a gut level on foreign policy specifically. And I think they were making fun of John Bolton or something. We're talking about Senator Paul and Trump. John Bolton was not long for this world and the administration after that. But that's a good thing and we should recognize it and we should encourage it. Every time I hear, could be a Democrat or it could be left Libertarian, say, oh, well, Trump's in the tank for Putin. He's a Putin puppet. I'm like, you are a neocon. You are absolutely a neocon when you say that. And they are.
- [34:08]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I. I would be embarrassed to talk like that.
- [34:11]
C
Yeah.
- [34:11]
B
You know, or somebody's a Russian asset. Like, everybody knows that's fake, right? You know, like, we all know that's fake. So, like, you either have a very low IQ and are highly suggestible, or you're just a propagandist. I mean, there really isn't a third option. I mean, could you imagine ever saying somebody's a Russian asset? Just a crazy thing to say. And yet the funny thing is some of these people were alive back during the Soviet times when there actually were Soviet propagandists in the U.S. sure. You know, there actually were Americans at one time or another who covered up or made excuses for Soviet crimes. Those were Russian assets. But at that time, the Democratic Party, you know, see no evil, hear no evil, you know, I mean, it was like, didn't even matter, you know, but now all of a sudden, it's just crazy. And another thing. Did you see this thing the other day where I guess Tim Waltz was criticizing Elon Musk, who, of course is from South Africa, and he was suggesting that there's too much foreign influence in the US And I look at that headline, I thought, oh, my gosh, is he really saying Netanyahu as too much? But of course, no. He met Elon Musk, I thought, of course. Did I think for a minute that Tim Waltz would actually say something controversial that would cost him political capital? Of course not. So forget that. Or the left saying he's a puppet of Putin. Well, if you're going to say he's a puppet of anybody, you know, you could make a case for Netanyahu. You could make a case for that. And yet the same time, though, Jack, at the same time, I think he genuinely was happy to hear that Arab, Americans, a lot of them, were giving him a fair chance in. In, you know, in the polls. And I think he's genuinely happy about that. And there's a part of him that I think wants to still nevertheless come up with something that can somehow satisfy them all.
- [36:06]
C
I agree, and I sort of marvel at how you can't follow exactly what he's doing somehow. So he had the stupid idea about, you know, basically turning Gaza into Myrtle beach with the United States backing it or whatever, you know, thinking like a real estate developer. And he was asked just last week about that, and he kind of came off and said, oh, no, that's probably not going to happen. He didn't say that, but that's kind of how it came across. Do you think he says Things like that, to get the actors involved to do what he wants, but wouldn't have if he didn't say something that outlandish. Because I think he does that kind of thing sometimes.
- [36:37]
B
I do, too. Yeah, but that one, I thought that's a. That's a stretch, like.
- [36:43]
C
Yeah, it's the opposite of America first. Look, we're just talking about diplomacy. Not talking to your enemies is key to making wars continue. The reason Joe Biden did talk to Putin for three years is because we were fueling a war, and talking might bring us closer to something like that war ending. He didn't talk to him for three years. Trump was on the phone with him before he got sworn in. You know, people call him a Putin puppet. That's what a leader does. That's what somebody who wants peace does. I know that might sound like a broken record here, but. Yeah, when you're saying these crazy things, it's not logical. Tom. They may or may not think that Trump is a Putin puppet. Tim Waltz saying that about Elon Musk and his nationality. And like, in any other context, they'd be screaming racism or something.
- [37:28]
B
Yeah. You know, it's almost like it was all fake. All these things they claim to believe in. How about that?
- [37:34]
C
I think the starting point for them is I'm speaking as them. I hate Elon Musk. I hate Donald Trump. Therefore, him being of South African nationality is bad, even though not really listening to what you're saying. Therefore, they're in league with Putin. And that doesn't make sense because we had a whole Russia Gate investigation for two years. Robert Bola found that that was completely complete bunk. But that doesn't matter. What matters first is they hate Musk, they hate Trump. How many crazy things can we make up to say about these people to show how much we hate them? That's what it is. It's not a political philosophy. It's not sanity. It's that. What do you do with that? How do you reason with somebody like that? Well, you don't. You beat their ass in an election. That's what you do. What do you do with somebody who's like, no, free speech is bad. We don't want that in America. Because Tim Waltz kind of said that when he was running over the VP ticket for the Dems. He said, well, the First Amendment doesn't protect hate speech. He said that on MSNBC and was bewildered to learn that anybody thought differently. So, yeah, I think you have to defeat people like that.
- [38:31]
B
There's no reason, you know, and I'm not a wimp, Jack. I believe that too. But there is nevertheless a part of me that, you know, as I say, as I get a little bit older, I'm disappointed. I didn't want it to turn out this way. Me either. I wanted it to be that we could talk it all out and we would eventually reach some kind of an understanding. Like I, I, I didn't want it to be. You know, ultimately it's not that mankind can just settle its differences through reason the way the Enlightenment thought that it really is just we have these intractable differences and there's nothing we can do about it except one side, I hate to say it vanquishes the other. I mean, I, I don't want to think that way. I want to think we can sit down at the debating society and, you know, we concede that your side has a couple of good points and my side has a couple of good points. I guess that's just not so, you know, I guess it's not so.
- [39:26]
C
Well, let's put a positive spin on this. I think that's true to agree. I would argue about where that line of separation is. I think there are many well meaning, open minded, smart people who voted for Kamala Harris in this election because they just, they were scared of what Trump might do, but aren't so attached to Kamala Harris, didn't think she was great and don't hate Trump enough that they're just not going to listen to reason. I think there's a lot of people like that. I think there's a bunch of people who voted. I know, we know from the data that voted for Bernie Sanders and Barack Obama at some point and also voted for Trump in 2024. There's a lot of independent minded people out there. We should look at this positively. I wrote a long piece for the American Conservative about this not long ago about libertarian populism. This coalition that came together to elect Trump in 2024 is more multiracial than any Republican has enjoyed ever at least. Certainly in modern political history, you had a larger black vote, a larger Hispanic vote. That's a big deal. I want that. We're a country of many different backgrounds and I want, I think that's great libertarian ideas. Look, going into this, you'd have these national conservatism conferences every year, right? You'd see them in an assortment of characters, would talk about how we could now use the state for conservative ends and maybe the Constitution's not so important. Maybe we should bend the rules and ignore the Constitution and federalism and all that, and do right wing things. You're familiar with these conferences, Tom?
- [40:52]
B
Yeah.
- [40:53]
C
So those people were talking about all that stuff, you know, industrial policy, stuff like that. And they might be happy with the tariffs, they might even be happy with some of these deportations. But I could argue that Doge alone is a big libertarian win. It needs to be followed up on. But that is not what they had in mind when they were talking about Saurbamari or somebody like that, saying that we need a right wing new deal, which is how they were talking. There's more libertarian stuff happening in this administration than national conservatism stuff. These people kept saying they were the future and whatnot. Well, I could argue, and I did it at Fusion with our friend Sam Goldman, that there's as many, if not more libertarian things to look forward to or possibilities or opportunities in the second term of Trump than the big government national conservatives had hoped for. I think that's a good thing. So there, there's a lot to work with there. Some bad things are going to happen, some good things could happen and some already have. So I'm not as pessimistic as maybe I'm coming across this interview overall.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah, I know. It's just I had high hopes like three weeks ago and I still have reasonably high hopes for what's possible, but, you know, I feel like I have been brought back down to earth. But we're all human, for heaven's sake. I'm not going to apologize for any of that. But she's.
- [42:06]
C
The Yemen thing, Ross Ulbrich didn't think that was going to happen. It did. Right?
- [42:10]
B
No, I know. Look, I know. I already hear you. I'm totally with you. I already hear you. It's just like the Yemen thing is so. It's such an unforced error.
- [42:18]
C
It's stupid.
- [42:19]
B
Of all possible things to do.
- [42:21]
C
Yeah, it's idiotic. I was going to say the other goal would be Edward Snowden. That hasn't happened. Do you think it's possible with President Trump? I think it's possible.
- [42:29]
B
It's possible, but I doubt very much that that's a priority.
- [42:32]
C
Well, probably not, but we've got three and a half years and it should be at some point. But I'm just. That wouldn't have happened with Kamala Harris. It never would, you know, if Jeb Bush was president. It's not going to happen. Poor Edward Snowden out there. But things like that you can agitate for and talk about. I mean, Those are just two things among so many.
- [42:49]
B
But, yeah, I feel like at least I have a chance of having some things. I believe in being given a fair shake.
- [42:57]
C
Yeah.
- [42:58]
B
Because I, I know some of the people and some of them, I believe them, that they agree with me on some things. Whereas John McCain didn't even pretend to believe. To me, John McCain didn't even pretend to understand what the hell I was saying. You know, I think I. My favorite line, because we started off talking about the Ron Paul rally for the Republic and I spoke at that in 2008. It was a line that I made up on the fly because it was. I couldn't believe that I just happened to mention in a political speech the Austrian theory of the business cycle. And it got a huge cheer. A cheer for a theory of the business cycle. That's the kind of people we had in that huge, huge target center in Minneapolis. And I said, let's go ask John McCain what he knows about the Austrian theory. We may as well be speaking Chinese.
- [43:50]
C
Yeah.
- [43:51]
B
So I, you know, I, I'll take it, I'll take it. It's an improvement.
- [43:55]
C
The neoconservatives of that time with McCain and whatnot, they thought, you know, with pat Buchanan in 96, when he won the New Hampshire primary at an anti war populist message that came and went, I think that they thought they could do that with the Ron Paul people as well and the Rand Paul people. And then this Trump thing happened that had elements of that, certainly foreign policy wise within that populist movement. I think the populist movement overcame them in ways that they didn't see coming. I remember when Rand Paul won his primary in 2010 in Kentucky. And remember Mitch McConnell was for Rand Paul's primary opponent in that race, Dick Cheney. I think it was one of only two Republican primaries in the entire country. He injected himself into was against Rand, was to support Rand Paul's primary opponent in that race. So did Rudy Giuliani. So these are big, heavy hitter neocons. Right. Coming out to stop the son of Ron Paul from ever becoming a senator. Well, Rand won that primary. And I remember David Thumb writing it was probably a National review prominent neoconservative writer, ex Bush speechwriter. He wrote something to the effect, and I'm paraphrasing what has become of the Republican Party, that it no longer has the antibodies to ward off somebody like Rand Paul. And I just laughed at that line. I think I quoted it a bunch of times. And look at where we are now. So like the Neocons are a thing, they're a force. But they did it in that period, the John McCain period. Take for granted that the Republican Party was their party, the neoconservative party and Democrats would play ball. They'd vote for the wars and whatnot. But for the real hardcore warmongers, the GOP was their home. Well, most of those neocons are now the Democratic Party. Bill Kristol was talking about trans rights the other day. I think you retweeted. It's like, what the hell is this? Was this guy ever actually a conservative of any stripe? That's where we're at. John McCain's not here anymore, but the neoconservatives, they're down for the count many ways. They still have the institutional power. I'd know better to count them out, but they're in a more marginalized position than they would have ever imagined, certainly than the Republican Party.
- [46:01]
B
Tell us about the Rand Paul Review and how we take a look at it.
- [46:05]
C
Absolutely. If you go to randpaulreview.com, you will find a substack with lots of stories about, you guessed it, Rand Paul, but associated things. I write there. There are other writers. We're building up quite the subscriber base, but I write there. And I could tell you some more places I write if we're at that point in the show. Tom.
- [46:22]
B
Well, indeed. And you and I have written for some of the same outlets.
- [46:26]
C
Yeah.
- [46:27]
B
Over the years. And there are some good places that are reliable that I go to where I when I want to see what are the sensible people saying about X, Y or Z. Yeah, there are a bunch of places I go. And the American Conservative sometimes is one, obviously. Lou rockwell.com and, and Mises are among those. But. But I love all these new outlets that are coming up too. And, and of course, Dan McCarthy at modern age. There are a lot of great. If you know where to look, you can find sensible, smart people saying sensible, smart things about what's going on in the world.
- [47:01]
C
Absolutely. And I could turn.
- [47:03]
B
Jack, you are one of those.
- [47:04]
C
Well, that's very kind. That's. Well, I'm humbled. Yeah. The American conservative. You and I have contributed there for years. I would argue right now it's one of the best versions that it's been under the leadership of Kurt Mills and what he's doing there. I like it a lot. Responsible statecraft, which is a foreign policy based. Our friend Kelly Vos is an editor there. Contribute there frequently. I think I'm going to have My first column at the Libertarian Institute this week. I'm looking forward to that. That's kind of weird that that's never happened, but here we are and it's happening and I'm glad for it. You can read my primarily movie reviews at Modern Age with our friend Dan McCarthy that I mentioned earlier. And one more plug for Rand Paulreview.com. check it out. I love the organic nature of media now and independent journalism where people can just have an idea and run with it and see if other people are attracted to it. And that's exactly what that is. And we're getting traction. Thank you, Senator Paul, if you're watching, for retweeting us a number of times at this point, so that doesn't hurt.
- [48:00]
B
And one other thing I should say, if anybody's surprised, we didn't mention Thomas Massie. I did a whole episode on the Thomas Massie fiasco with David Stockman. So I have covered that and I've written about it in my newsletter, which everybody listening to this should be getting.
- [48:15]
C
Okay, can I say one thing about that? Yeah, probably what we've been talking about today, opportunities or whatnot. Thomas Massey is a perfect example. What he just did, being the person who was going to vote against the continuing resolution, vote for the right reason, that's going to add to spending. And he was sounding the horn. Trump wanted him kicked out of the party again. You saw a bunch of conservatives calling him a rhino, which is really stupid. But you saw just as many, I would say more people on the right who were definitely conservatives or libertarians, but definitely on the right saying, no, Thomas Massie's the man. You guys are wrong. That's what I'm talking about. We're in a different political environment. I would say there were more people on the right supporting Thomas Massie, regular people and big names out there saying these things. Then I think Donald Trump would have expected going anywhere. And that's a wonderful place to be in.
- [49:02]
B
Yeah, I think definitely he wasn't expecting as much pushback because I think he's used to being surrounded by yes men. And I think he thought the yes men would just spring into action. And, you know, when you get we could list a whole bunch of them. But like, Matt Walsh is not 100% in our camp by means. And he came out absolutely 100% for Massie.
- [49:25]
C
That's exactly what I'm talking about. He's not a libertarian. In fact, he likes, dislikes a lot of libertarianism. But boy, did he do Thomas Massie
- [49:31]
B
a solid yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. And I. But geez, I just kept tweeting and writing about Massey and I just. Because I just thought. And I mean, not to mention within the past year he lost his wife.
- [49:43]
C
Yeah.
- [49:44]
B
So he's also enduring the two minutes hate without his wife at his side.
- [49:49]
C
Yeah.
- [49:49]
B
You know, it's just awful. But he's a courageous guy and he is like a here I stand. I could do no other kind of person. And he can't do any. Anything other than that. So Anyway, Rand Paul review.com everybody check that out to check out what our friend Jack Hunter is up to. Jack, thanks so much.
- [50:07]
C
Always glad to talk to you, Tom. Thank you.
- [50:09]
B
And thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
- [50:13]
A
Make yourself and those you love less vulnerable to the regime, both mentally, physically. Get more forbidden information@tomsfreebooks.com and be sure to subscribe to the show wherever you listen. See you next time.
- [50:35]
B
Like the sound of the Tom Wood Show. My audio production is provided by Podsworth Media. Check them out@podsworth.com
- [50:44]
D
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- [51:22]
E
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