Ep. 2693 What if Things Become Unlivable? - The Tom Woods Show

Podcast Summary: The Tom Woods Show, Ep. 2693
"What if Things Become Unlivable?" with Mikel Thorup
Release Date: September 20, 2025
Guests: Mikel Thorup (Founder/CEO, Expat Money)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tom Woods welcomes back Mikel Thorup, renowned expat consultant and host of the Expat Money Show, for an in-depth discussion on creating an “international Plan B.” With growing global instability, civil unrest, and shifting political trends, Woods and Thorup explore why having options for relocation, second citizenship, and offshore assets has become an increasingly prudent strategy for individuals and families seeking to preserve their liberty and livelihood. Special focus is placed on the emerging opportunities in Latin America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Case for an International Plan B

The Need for Political Insurance [03:09]
- Thorup frames internationalization as “political insurance,” akin to fire or health insurance:
  "We are trying to defend ourselves and protect our liberties. And we do that by spreading out the risk drastically with second citizenship, second passports, keeping some money offshore, hopefully a second home or a property that you can go to..."
Benefits Beyond Civil Unrest
- Civil unrest isn’t the only concern—taxation and business opportunities are major motivators, too.
- Crafting a plan B is not a “one size fits all” endeavor; personalization is essential.

Spotlight: Latin America’s Rising Opportunity [05:46]

Political Shift Toward Freedom
- Latin America is highlighted as an attractive region for expats due to recent pro-business, right-leaning governments.
- Examples include:
  - Nayib Bukele’s transformation of El Salvador’s crime landscape.
  - Javier Milei’s libertarian reforms in Argentina.
  - Santiago Peña’s efforts in Paraguay.
- Thorup shares a notable anecdote about consulting Paraguayan President Peña:
  "He put his hand on my shoulder and said... ‘You're talking about freedom... We've got that here.'" [07:06]
Contrast with Europe
- Europe is described as moving in “the exact opposite” direction of freedom, with high taxes, strict regulations, and a growing surveillance state.

Country-by-Country Assessment

Brazil [09:13]
- Despite having a left-wing government (Lula’s regime), Brazil’s right-leaning Congress tempers radical policies.
- Thorup’s personal ties:
  "My second child was born in Brazil. I have a couple of homes in Brazil. I'm building a hotel at the moment..."
- Predicts Brazil will swing to the center in future elections and praises its long-term potential.
Argentina [13:01]
- Supportive of Milei’s direction, with honest criticism: "He said that he was going to abolish the central bank... he's joining NATO and things like that. I don't like any of that. However, he is doing a lot of good things..."
- Posits that Milei’s greatest impact is mainstreaming conversations on liberty.
- Argentina’s new citizenship-by-investment program could yield "one of the strongest passports in the world." [14:00]

Second Citizenships, Passports & Residency: The Practicalities

Practical Advantages [16:02]
- Visa-free travel is the obvious perk, but Thorup notes deeper benefits:
  - Personal anecdotes show real-life situations where a second passport eases travel and reduces bureaucracy (e.g., bypassing Brazilian entry restrictions with a St. Kitts and Nevis passport).
    "[The Brazilian immigration officer] is on Wikipedia, looking at the national anthem and the flag and everything like this for Saint Kitts... finally he's just like shaking his hand and stamps my passport." [17:32]
Residency before Citizenship [27:32]
- Thorup recommends securing a second residency as the first achievable milestone:
  - "A second residency is still immigration, but it allows you to live, work, and do business in that one country..."
- Cites Paraguay as an easy and affordable residency option (no investment required, just legal fees).
Common Pitfalls & Best Practices [30:06]
- Mistakes often occur in structuring, tax reporting, or investments.
- Thorup’s “Three Pillars” for a basic Plan B:
  1. Secure a second residency.
  2. Own real estate abroad (even modestly priced).
  3. Maintain offshore access to funds (precious metals or bank accounts).

Tax Strategies & the American Dilemma

Unique U.S. Approach [20:15]
- Only the U.S. and Eritrea tax citizens on worldwide income regardless of residence, creating double-taxation headaches for Americans.
- Workarounds exist but require proper structuring and compliance.
Territorial Tax Systems [24:50]
- Countries like Panama, Costa Rica, and Paraguay only tax locally sourced income.
- Expats with online businesses or offshore assets can potentially live tax-free (aside from VAT/sales taxes): "If you have an online business... there's no tax. Now you can live in Panama full time..."

Safety and Lifestyle in Latin America

Personal Safety [35:11]
- Panama, Costa Rica, Belize, and others are noted as safer than many North American and European cities.
- Latin America offers additional advantages:
  - Organic foods, lower cost of living, strong family values.
- "Panama is drastically more safe than Canada... benefit over benefit over benefit." [36:12]
Assimilation vs. Expat Bubbles [37:47]
- Thorup discourages relocating expats from sticking to “expat-only” communities.
  - Recommends learning the local language and immersing in local culture for greater fulfillment.
  - "Anybody can learn another language. You just have to have the right system..."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Political Insurance:
"One of the biggest threats that we are under is from the political establishment. And I think having some political insurance is very important." – Mikel Thorup [03:09]
On Paraguay’s President:
"He stopped me... put his hand on my shoulder and he said to me, 'Mikel, I know what you're talking about. You're talking about freedom.' ... 'We've got that here.'" – Mikel Thorup [07:06]
On second passports and surprising bureaucracy:
"He's on Wikipedia, looking at the national anthem and the flag..." – Mikel Thorup, about Brazil’s immigration officer confronting his St. Kitts & Nevis passport [17:32]
On assimilation:
"Anybody can learn another language. You just have to have the right system and you have to put the time in, you need to practice and you know, don't worry about making mistakes." – Mikel Thorup [38:37]

Important Segments & Timestamps

[03:09] – Why an International Plan B? The Concept of Political Insurance
[05:46] – Latin America’s Political Renaissance: Why It’s the New Frontier
[13:01] – Argentina’s Libertarian Experiment and Second Citizenship Program
[16:02] – Second Passports: Real-World Advantages & Funny Stories
[20:15] – The U.S. Tax Dilemma for Expats
[24:50] – Territorial Tax Systems: How Expats Can (Legally) Pay No Tax
[27:32] – The Order of Operations: Residency First, Citizenship Later
[30:06] – The Three Pillars of a Minimalist Plan B
[35:11] – Safety in Latin America versus North America/Europe
[37:47] – Avoiding the Expat Bubble: The Value of Assimilation
[39:26] – Expat Money Summit: What to Expect This Year

Event Recommendation

Expat Money Summit 2025 (October 10–12)

Online, free to attend: expatmoneysummit.com
Focus on Latin America and the Caribbean, featuring lawyers, developers, bankers, and global experts.

Final Takeaways

Creating an international Plan B is increasingly practical, affordable, and—according to Thorup—fun.
Latin America offers robust opportunities for freedom, safety, and investment.
Avoid “expat bubbles” by integrating locally and learning languages.
Starting with residency, not citizenship, is the advised first step.
The Expat Money Summit is recommended for further guidance, practical info, and regional contacts.

Listen if you want:

To keep your options open in an unstable world,
Realistic advice on international relocation, citizenship, and asset protection,
To hear practical steps (and some entertaining anecdotes) from experts who've done it.

Resource Links: