“Never Go Full Red”

Summary

The Tony Kornheiser Show

Episode: “Never Go Full Red”

Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Tony Kornheiser
Main Guests: Michael Wilbon, Ryan McGee

Episode Overview

This episode blends classic Tony Kornheiser: a spirited mix of sports commentary, tech-age anxieties, generational grievances, and old friends debating the biggest trends and smallest indignities of modern life. Tony opens with exasperation over the wave of forced digital adoption (“Big Brother is here, and I’m afraid of it”), moves into stories about winter golf (and heated hand-warmers), and transitions into lively conversations on college football, the NFL, and a deep-dive into recent NCAA and NASCAR drama with Michael Wilbon and Ryan McGee. The show is punctuated with nostalgia, life reflections, and the familiar camaraderie of Tony’s inner circle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tech & the Aging Curve: Tony Wages War on Digital Everything

• [00:00-04:45] Tony’s Tech Troubles

  • Tony rails against rising digital-only requirements: “The ability to say no, to say no to Apple. No, it’s gone. You don’t have it. You have to play the game their way. That’s Big Brother. I am [afraid].” (Tony, 00:52)
  • He is distressed that the government now mandates tax payments electronically, fearing for older Americans: “How can the government disenfranchise, I don’t know, 10, 15% of its people?... They’re not going to be able to pay taxes and then they’re going to get fined.” (Tony, 01:31)
  • Ongoing struggles with AOL’s imminent closure and the deluge of junk email.
  • His son plays tech-support, describing in detail (with some humor) the process of downloading and setting up new email options.

• [03:36-04:53] Tony’s Son’s Take

  • Tony’s son jokes: “I would like to publish our series of text messages over the Christmas break because I have learned a level of patience I did not know was possible.” (Tony’s Son, 03:36)

Memorable Quote:

“They just reach into your phone, which is the same as reaching into your life, and they change it.”
— Tony Kornheiser, 04:53

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2. Winter Golf & New Gadgets: “Never Go Full Red”

• [05:16–12:20] Golf Talk and Hand-Warmer Innovation
  • Tony recounts braving icy, windy DC golf rounds during the holiday (“Ice balls were falling on us... you couldn’t putt because the ice balls redirected the putt.” Tony, 06:01).
  • Discovers and is amazed by a Columbia-branded battery-powered hand-warmer (“game changer”). After some haggling, buys it using in-store credit: “I may sell a bunch of these for Del Mar. I may want my name on this. What’s on it now? G Tech. No, I’m not getting anything.” (Tony, 11:27)
  • The title quip: you can set the device to “full red” (maximum heat), but Tony refuses: “You never go full red.”

Memorable Exchange:

Tony: “If... full red, I said to Steve, how long does it — full red lasts about four hours. OK. In the winter, that’s all I’m going to go. But I didn’t want to go full red.” (09:46)

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3. Aging, Nostalgia, and High School Friends

• [14:06–17:15] Email Reunions
  • Tony shares a heartfelt story about reconnecting with high school classmates through email, quoting “In My Life” by the Beatles, reflecting on memory and mortality:
    • “When you get old, you can isolate these small things in your life... Some are dead, some are living. In my life, I’ve loved them all. So I’m gonna tear up here, which I do very... Makes me think I’m alive, which is good.” (Tony, 16:20)

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4. Sports Segment I: Northwestern & Chicago Bears

• [19:00–26:12] Michael Wilbon on Northwestern’s Bowl Win & Bears-49ers
  • Wilbon hails Northwestern’s “pretty fulfilling season.” Frustration that some close games didn’t break their way, but proud of overall performance.
  • The Bears’ near-win against San Francisco is dissected:
    • “They went toe-to-toe with the Niners. It was astounding to watch... Let me not be one of those crazy college football fans and forget what I’m watching, forget who I’m watching.” (Wilbon, 21:34)
    • Tony: “They are legit... every game against good teams, they’re in it till the end. Our friend David Israel... first game in NFL history that was tied at 7, 14, 21, 28 and 35.” (Tony, 20:02)
  • Wilbon discusses the Bears' offensive explosion, the lack of defensive stars, and the agony of possibly facing Green Bay in the playoffs again.

Memorable Moment:

“Green Bay is to the Bears what Villanova was. Look, they’ve only played one playoff game in history... The Bears were the champion... Who do they meet in the NFC Championship... Aaron Rodgers and the Packers. And that’s Aaron Rodgers’ only trip to the Super Bowl.”
— Michael Wilbon, 25:33

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5. Sports Segment II: NFL Contenders and Playoff Scenarios

• [26:12–33:38] Rapid Review of NFL Playoff Picture
  • Tony and Wilbon analyze Buffalo’s rollercoaster, Josh Allen’s injury, the AFC playoff logjam, and root for Buffalo out of sentimental attachment.
    • “If you could put any team in the AFC into the Super Bowl, would you put Buffalo in this year?... Yeah, I root for Buffalo.” (Tony & Wilbon, 28:16–28:36)
  • Ground-level stories from “The Shack” at Columbia golf club.
  • Focus on crucial upcoming games: Carolina/Tampa Bay, San Francisco/Seattle, Baltimore/Pittsburgh.
  • Deep-cut analysis of Cleveland and Pittsburgh: “I’ve spent more motion on Pittsburgh and Cleveland rooting against Aaron Rodgers than I’m going to spend tonight rooting for the Bears. And it was true.” (Wilbon, 31:45)

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6. Sports Segment III: College Football Playoff and Michigan’s Coach

Featuring Ryan McGee

• [34:41–43:48] College Football Playoff Surprises & Expansion

  • No major surprises except home teams unexpectedly losing early.
  • College football's dominance by Big Ten and SEC is debated. McGee advocates “giving a shot” to Group of Five schools. Tony gripes about Miami's selection over Notre Dame:
    • “To me, Tulane and James Madison could not beat Texas and Notre Dame... But I actually think I’m in the minority.” (Tony, 36:13)
    • “What I worry about, about college football is the fact that there’s almost 140 teams... At least being able to, if you’re Appalachian State, if you’re Coastal Carolina, if you’re San Diego State: recruiting on, if you come here, we could make the playoffs... And one day somebody’s going to win that first-round game and everybody’s going to go crazy and it’s going to be great.” (McGee, 36:41–38:07)
  • The process of playoff selection is scrutinized (mock committees, committee chair’s media role).
  • Picks for this round: McGee is fascinated by Indiana (“I keep picking against them and I keep waiting on them to wake up... but they are that good.” (Ryan, 40:11–41:34)), sees Georgia as the most dangerous, and is watching Alabama/Indiana’s Rose Bowl squarely.

• [43:48–44:45] Michigan’s New Head Coach: Kyle Whittingham

  • McGee touts Whittingham as a perfect “reset button” for Michigan post-scandal: “But I’m crazy about him... Michigan could use a big old dose of no nonsense right now.” (McGee, 42:48)
  • Tony frames Whittingham as a stopgap for institutional integrity: “They need somebody who’s not going to do that [scandal]... to be the University of Michigan. There’s no list where the top three public schools aren’t Michigan, Berkeley, and Virginia.” (Tony, 43:37)

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7. NASCAR Lawsuit: The Jordan Angle

• [44:45–49:07] Michael Jordan Sues NASCAR: Why It Matters
  • Ryan McGee details the origins and importance of the lawsuit: Jordan & Denny Hamlin sued NASCAR over franchise/ownership equity for racing teams.
    • “Their argument was, we need something. We need more equity in what we’re building here... Now the teams have something they can sell, a piece of paper that says, this is what I own. I have a guaranteed starting spot...” (Ryan, 46:34–48:07)
  • NASCAR’s old model clashed with Jordan’s NBA/ownership background; settlement came after it became clear NASCAR risked losing.
  • The awkwardness ahead: “What I want to know when we get to Daytona is can all of these hurt feelings be mended? Because this is a very small community and it’s going to be awkward.” (Ryan, 48:54)

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8. Listener Mail & Life Observations

[49:53–58:02]

• Tony and crew read email on:
  • Generational tech/email woes (“demographics of AOL users must mirror those of the podcast: between 65 and dead” listener Neil Ayervase).
  • Fierce regional pride and sports rivalries (Missouri-Kansas feud).
  • Wedding updates, potato-cooking tips, and listener anecdotes about car AI.
  • Tony commiserates on tech advances: “That’s one of the reasons I’m afraid to get a new car, because the technology is so great and leaves me so far behind.” (Tony, 56:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You never go full red.” (Tony, 09:46 – on overusing his heated golf hand-warmer)
• “They just reach into your phone, which is the same as reaching into your life, and they change it.” (Tony, 04:53)
• “I’m with you. I’m totally with you. I don’t understand.” (Tony, 04:53)
• “When you get old, you can isolate these small things in your life... Some are dead, some are living. In my life, I’ve loved them all.” (Tony, 16:20)
• “They went up and down the field like a video game.” (Wilbon, 24:45 – describing the Bears-49ers game)
• “If you could put any team in the AFC into the Super Bowl, would you put Buffalo in this year?... Yeah, I root for Buffalo.” (Tony & Wilbon, 28:16–28:36)
• “We need more equity in what we’re building here... and all the race teams went to NASCAR... Can we do something to help us build equity?” (Ryan, 46:34)
• “I have turn by turn. I can call up and say, could you please give me turn by turn directions?” (Tony, 56:45)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:52 – Tony’s “Big Brother” digital angst
• 04:53 – “They just reach into your phone...” quote
• 06:01 – “Ice balls” and miserable golf
• 09:46 – “Never go full red” – buying heated golf muff
• 16:20 – Tony tears up recalling friends: “In my life, I’ve loved them all.”
• 20:02–26:12 – Bears-49ers retrospective, NFL wide-open year
• 28:36 – Wilbon’s “I root for Buffalo” sentimentality
• 34:41–38:07 – Ryan McGee on the College Football Playoff, inclusion, and expansion
• 46:34–48:07 – NASCAR, Michael Jordan, and the franchise equity lawsuit
• 49:53–58:02 – Listener email: tech woes, rivalries, and personal stories

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Language and Tone

Tony’s voice—part Luddite, part wise sage, always self-deprecating and gruffly affectionate—is strong throughout. The episode oscillates between irreverence, nostalgia, armchair coaching, old-man-yells-at-clouds resignation, and true warmth for community and friends. Wilbon and McGee bring expert sports analysis and friendly ribbing. The banter is familiar, quick, and layered with memories.

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Conclusion

“Never Go Full Red” embodies everything the Tony Kornheiser Show is known for—a place where sports, technology, life gripes, and generational divides intertwine against a backdrop of long-running friendships and deep affection for both the past and present.

If you love sports, cringe/laugh at digital adaptation, or just want to eavesdrop on some of the sharpest (and curmudgeonly) voices in the business, this episode is a perfect slice of Tony’s world.

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Transcript

[Tony Kornheiser]

Hey, it's Tony. On today's show, we'll catch up with Michael Wilbon about Northwestern's bowl win and about the Bears, very close, really exciting loss to the 49ers last night. And we will talk with Ryan McGee about what has surprised him so far in the college football playoffs and about Michigan's new head coach. But first, let's keep the sales weasels happy. Previously on the Tony Kornheiser Show. The obvious problem here is that there's been such a conversion to electronic mail, to email, such a conversion to it by so many, many hundreds of millions of people that it's gone. The ability to say no, to say no to Apple. No, it's gone. You don't have it. You have to play the game their way. You know, that's Big Brother. That's what people in the 40s and 50s were afraid of. I guess nobody's afraid anymore. I am.

[Michael Wilbon]

I am.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I think with good reason. The Tony Kornheiser show is on now. So I should say, to begin with, that I take back nothing on that. You know, I'm afraid of this, and I think it's terrible. I'll give you just another example. The United States government has decided that no taxes will be paid. I heard this from my accountant. No taxes will be paid by check. Everything has to be done on electronic mail. What? So, like, okay, so in other words, you're changing the rules in the middle of the game. If I had, and I did, and I do have four different vouchers to prepaid taxes for the tax year of 2025, which is just going to conclude in a couple of days. You have, you know, you have to send in money beforehand. So the first three vouchers I sent in with checks. Now I'm told by my accountant, I can't send the fourth one in, which is due January 15th. Yeah, I can't send that in by check. And I said, well, what do you mean? I don't know how to do it this other way. I said, how can the government disenfranchise I don't know, 10, 15% of its people? I'm not the only person who is uncomfortable with this. I'm not the only person who doesn't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. And you'll say, well, you have an accountant. Okay, but there are a lot of people who don't, and they don't know how to do this, and they're not going to be able to send in money. They're not going to be able to pay taxes and then they're going to get fined. And it's arbitrary. By the government saying this is the only way you can do that.

[Chris]

They should at least grandfather in people of a certain age.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Old people.

[Ryan McGee]

Right?

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Be like you. Do it this way, keep doing it, we'll be fine.

[Tony's Son]

Just a slow roll.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I just. Yes. I just. I don't get it at all.

[Tony's Son]

Or if the biggest issue is because checks are no longer safe through the mail, there's a way that you can bring them into a secure location.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Sure. Happy to do that. Happy to drop them off wherever you want. Happy to do that. But it's check. I don't know how to do this. Others, I don't know how. And again, well, you have pros to do it for you. Okay, but what about people who don't. They don't know how either. They're just like me, except they don't have the ability to turn to someone else and say, please do this for me. It's not. Not right. I'm getting email again. I'm now getting it on aol. Michael went through all sorts of things to get me to aol. I aol, I was just told, is closing up within a week, so I have to move from AOL to something else. I had 984email waiting for me. Took me a while to go through them all. Got through.

[Tony's Son]

I would like to publish our series of text messages over the Christmas break because I have learned a level of patience that I did not know was possible.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I just. I don't want to do this. I don't like this. I don't like anything about this. I no longer have my regular email that I used to have. And I'm. Every time I go on email now on AOL, I have like 50 waiting for me. And they're 48 or junk.

[Chris]

Right?

[Tony Kornheiser]

48. Ridiculous. Yeah, I don't. I just. I can't even unsubscribe the way I used.

[Tony's Son]

You want me to explain to you what I think happened?

[Tony Kornheiser]

Sure.

[Tony's Son]

So when you try and add your AOL or another ad email to the iPhone mail function, there's an extra step that you have to do. But because of the accessibility features that you've turned on, it is. It got to be so zoomed in. You could not scroll down to the decline offer or to the gray X out couldn't get. But. But how about this? I was able to show you how to download the AOL app through the app Store. I was unable to take a screen grab and say, here is the icon where. If you press on this and I'm using the highlighter feature here. If you press on this, you can add in your information and get.

[Tony Kornheiser]

What about the people who don't have a son like you?

[Tony's Son]

I'm tech support at this point.

[Tony Kornheiser]

What is this?

[Tony's Son]

I'm on the AOL payroll.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I can't tell you how many people at Columbia have come up to me who've heard this and say, I'm with you. I'm totally with you. I don't understand. They just reach into your phone, which is the same as reaching into your life, and they change it. Why can't they just take your money? Why can't they just take your Social Security? They can.

[Chris]

Well, yeah, they can.

[Tony Kornheiser]

They can.

[Tony's Son]

When you send that check, they will.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I just. Just awful. Let me give. Let me tell another story. I played a lot of golf this weekend, very cold in Washington. Never got over about 41 or 42 without wind. It's not terrible with wind. You have to stop on Friday. I went out in a shotgun on Friday and started on number three at number eight. Ice balls were falling on us. Oh, yeah, ice balls. Yeah, they were falling all over the green. You couldn't putt because the ice balls redirected the putt. And plus, let me emphasize this, ice balls were falling on us. Dry. Dry ice balls. It was not wet. It was very odd. Yeah, I guess it's hail. I don't know.

[Chris]

Sleep maybe.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I don't. I thought sleet was wetter. These were not wet.

[Tony's Son]

The ground so bad enough in my family. Like a post Christmas golf shotgun.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah. So we quitted with flame conditions. Quit at 15. So, you know, I had a number of events in which I didn't go the full 18. Once or twice I did, and a couple of times I did not go the full 18. And it's fine. It was satisfactory. Yesterday I went 16 holes and I was totally fine with it. Steve Rose and I played 16, totally fine.

[Chris]

Yesterday was much, much nicer.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Well, don't get crazy. It wasn't much, much nicer because there was 15 mile an hour wind and it never got over 41. And that wind gets to you if it's at a low temperature. If there's no wind, it's fine. But wind gets to you anyway. Here's what happened on earlier last week before the shotgun. So on Wednesday. I went out to play on Wednesday because it was my first day without PTI and I don't have anything else to do I don't know what to do. So I went out and I played, and I was cold, and I came in and I was really cold, and I went. Was in the pro shop with the head pro, Steve Delmar, who I like very much, and he was talking with Chris Lamond. Chris Lamond grew up at Columbia. Chris Lemon's dad was at Columbia. Chris Aman is a very fine golfer, right, Michael? He's been a fine golfer his whole life.

[Tony's Son]

Great player.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Fine, fine golfer. And Chris Lemond. And I say, it's cold out there. And Chris Lemond walks over to a shelf and pulls down something that looks sort of like I'm holding it up. What would you say that looks like?

[Chris]

Looks like a muffler.

[Tony Kornheiser]

A muffler? Looks like a muffler. It is in a bright blue with a Columbia logo. The bright blue is more of a Duke blue than a Carolina blue.

[Chris]

Yes, very much.

[Tony Kornheiser]

And Chris Lemon says to me, this is a game changer. This changes everything. And I go, what is it? He says, it's heat. It's heat. You put your hands in it. And it. Now I look at it, and I go, it just looks like what the quarterbacks wear, right? Looks like what the quarterback, Brady. Right. So I look at it, and I go, it's. You know. Okay. And I look at Del Mar. Now, you got to understand, this is the holiday season. Everything's 50 off in a pro shop. Everything. And I go, how much is that?

[Tony's Son]

This would be marked up considering the weather.

[Tony Kornheiser]

How much is that? You want to take a shot at how much this is, Michael? Oh, with the.

[Tony's Son]

With the pro shop discount or the list price?

[Tony Kornheiser]

List price.

[Tony's Son]

List price. I'm going 150.

[Chris]

I'll go $75.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Okay, you both under bid. It's 180. Okay, now, so that. That is jolting. But thanks to my son and his friends, I have shop credit. What would I say, Michael? I got about $250 worth of shop.

[Tony's Son]

You'd have hundreds, given all the holiday tournaments that you play. Him.

[Tony Kornheiser]

No, I'm handicapping yours. Yeah. Something like dollars in shop credits. So it's. It's even. It's free, too. So I. It's free. So I say. And he says, it's a 15% discount. I said, 15. Everything else here is 50. Goes 15. Okay. So I'm reluctant at first, and I go, I'll think about it. And then they show me how to use it. There is a battery device that is inside this thing. They charge? Yes. Rechargeable. You charge it in your house. Then you put it in and connect it in a small little pocket in this larger muffler. In a small little pocket, you connect it and you press certain buttons and colors light up. And depending on how much heat you want, you can go full red or orange or green, you know, and you never go change it. You can. Well, you know, if. Full red, I said to Steve, how long does it. Full red lasts about four hours. Okay. In the winter, that's all I'm going to go. But I didn't want to go full red, so I. I didn't even take it. The next day before I played, I came in. I bought it before I went out.

[Tony's Son]

They had it already charging for you.

[Tony Kornheiser]

No, already famous. You know, I will tell you, I'll wear it out. Tremendous. It's tremendous.

[Chris]

Game changer.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Well, I will. As soon as Michael gets back from South Carolina, he will take this. I will never see it again. It is that good? It is that good. I mean, it's. You know, there are sort of like rods inside of it that are covered in sort of flannel, and you hold on to those with either hand or both hands, and you get instant warmth. And so you can bring these. I'm not going to wear it around my back because more things added to my swing. That is so terrible now. I'm not going to do it. But.

[Tony's Son]

But it does not impede your ability to play golf.

[Tony Kornheiser]

No. I carry it around, and then when I'm about to hit a shot, I drop it on the ground, and then I pick it up and it's hot. It's really good. It's exactly.

[Tony's Son]

Put a sandwich in there.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, it's exactly what it says it is. It's. It's a great hand warmer. Have you ever played with that? Now you're too good a player. You probably know what.

[Tony's Son]

But I have never played with one of those. I used. I remember the old hand warmers where you just put it in your pocket and you get about 30 minutes of warmth, and then it becomes sort of.

[Tony Kornheiser]

A weight that's different.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Tony Kornheiser]

This is really nice. And every shake, everybody who looks at it goes, wow.

[Aubrey Dale]

Yeah.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I may sell a bunch of these for Del Mar. I may. I may want my name on this. What's on it now? G Tech. No, I'm not getting anything. Well, it's gonna.

[Chris]

It's got.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Although Del Mar did say, I want to listen to the podcast, see where you go with this.

[Aubrey Dale]

Yeah.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah. Because it's really nice.

[Chris]

It is nice. It's got the Columbia flag and the. Yeah, the year on it.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah. Yeah. It's really nice. That's very cool. So, I mean. And again, the. I had. Thanks to Michael, you know, we've won enough money in shop credit that it was free. I mean, not free, but because.

[Chris]

Essentially free.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Essentially free. So what do you think?

[Tony's Son]

Is it one of those. By keeping your hands warm, did it make you notice that your ears or your head. Like, were you cold elsewhere because you're so warm in the middle with the hands?

[Tony Kornheiser]

No, no, no, because all of those things are taken care of. You know, there are hats and. And there are ways to warm yourself up, and then just the motion, the movement warms you up.

[Chris]

How many sh. Think it helped you out with? Probably a dozen.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Zero. Help me out with zero because I stink. I'm a terrible player. I mean, I went out two days ago. I was the first person on the course. I was there when the course opened. I was there earlier than that. I had nothing else to do. And I say, well, who's out? And they go, no one's out. I said, well, can I go out? Can I take a cart and go out? And they go, sure. And I went out by myself. And after tee shots, on one on. I just hit one because I didn't want anybody to see me hit three or four. After that, I played two or three or four balls on every hole, and I was still done in. In like 2 hours and 20 minutes. And it was. It was wonderful. But my best ball score, and I'm playing a lot. I'm hitting a lot of shots, most of which are terrible. My best ball score is only about 88, so, like, you can imagine how terrible. I'm taking five shots. I'm putting six balls, you know. But it was. I was. I was alone. I was out there by myself. It was my own personal golf course. It was the greatest feeling in the world. And no. And nobody was angry because nobody was playing.

[Chris]

Right.

[Tony Kornheiser]

They said, is anybody out there? They said, that maniac Kornheiser is out there, and he's not even any good. He's not going to break it, you know. Yeah. So it was good. You know, that was great fun, but it's been cold and, like, the. The temperature, for example, tomorrow and Wednesday, it's not even supposed to get over. Freeze. I can't go out.

[Chris]

No, today.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Can't go out today.

[Chris]

Actually, it's in the 50s.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, but that's turning in the middle of the day. It's going to turn all right. I just wanted to Read this thing. Remember I talked about this before. I talked about Alan Lagarde, who was, you know, a friend of mine from camp from 100 years ago, and how I called him. He sent me an email and I called him.

[Chris]

That's right.

[Tony Kornheiser]

And I mentioned that I'd gotten one a while back from Danny Gassman, who was a real good high school basketball player at Southside High School, county champions. And then, you know, went on, I think, to play at Hofstra. And he writes back a quick thank you and a hello. I ran into Peter Goldstein at the gym yesterday. Levittown Division, 1979. So that's another Long Island, Mid Island School. He's befriended both me and my son Zack, and he mentioned that I came up on your podcast. I went back to listen. I was genuinely touched. Being remembered at all after all these years is no small thing. And being described as a fine player is a compliment I'll happily take. What really struck me, though, was that the mention reminded me how vivid that whole period still feels, not just to me, but clearly to you as well. Southside was your very first beat. That's exactly true. The first thing I ever did was high school football and high school basketball on Long island for Newsday. And that 1971 run still seems to hover between somewhere between box score and folklore. The Calhoun semifinals, the arms against the man, the Great Neck north final. It was a strange, electric time to be a high school kid who suddenly found himself inside a story bigger than himself. I've been trying slowly and carefully to put some of that down on paper, not as correction, but as context. Mostly. I wanted you to know how much I appreciated the acknowledgment. It meant more than you probably realize and reminded me where I reached out in the first place. It's just such a nice note.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Tony Kornheiser]

From Dan Gassman. It's just such a nice note and what it reminds you of. And this happened to me. This happened to me over the weekend because I should tell this story because I didn't have an email. When I finally got the email back, I noticed there was a lot of email to me and to about 30 others in a group email from my high school class. And Eddie, Eddie Plutzer had said happy New Year to everybody and everybody. Well, not everybody, but most responded with some, you know, some sentiment of their own. And I read all of these, you know, in one time, and I was completely moved by this. And I, you know, I wrote to everyone, I said, I'm late with this because I lost my Email. I didn't see any of these things. I didn't see any of them. And now to read them all at once is very tender. It's very moving. And I quoted in my life, you know. You know, there are places I remember, places I remember in my life, whatever it is. Some and some have changed Some forever not for better Some have gone and some have gone and some remain all these places have some meaning with lovers and friends I still can recall Some are dead Some are living in my life I've loved them all. So I'm gonna tear up here, which I do very. Makes me think I'm alive, which is good. But I wrote that, you know, because it just ran through my head and it was a wonderful, wonderful moment. You know, when you get old, when you get old, you can isolate these small things in your life. You can look back and, and even look in the current life. And it's true. High school friends have died, you know, some are. Some are gone, some remain, you know, so it's. It was really nice. Glad I got the email back when I did.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Had no idea, by the way, if anybody's read this because I don't know. I don't know if I actually sent it out, but I sent it out for myself. All right, I will shut up now. Wilbon. Yes, Michael Wilbon when we return. I'm Tony Kornheiser. Your new home is now ready.

[Chris]

Dr. Horton, America's builder, has new homes that are ready today with new construction communities in Ellensburg and throughout the Greater Seattle area.

[Tony's Son]

Dr. Horton has the right home for.

[Chris]

You at Dr. Horton. We're still building with flexible living spaces.

[Tony's Son]

Smart home technology, and two and three car garages. More communities and more homes available every day. Find your new home in Ellensburg now [e-mail] Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder.

[Tony Kornheiser]

This is the Tony Kornheiser Show. This is Aubrey Dale. We got a note from Linda Blom. Here are some songs from my friend Aubrey who lives in Colorado. She's an up and coming artist, obviously. I think she's going to be a star. Hope you and your audience likes them.

[Chris]

She's really good.

[Tony Kornheiser]

This is, this is somebody who knows how to write a song and sing a song.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, this is really good. This is Aubrey Dale. You can listen to it at the end of the podcast without me yapping. It's called Till the Cows Come Home plays in Mike Wilbon and. And we'll start. We'll start with the best news of all. Which is Northwestern winning a bowl game. They finish eight and six. And, and, come on. They're not Ohio State. They're not. You know, Alabama should be a satisfying year for you, right?

[Michael Wilbon]

Yes, largely, Tony. Especially because we had three games that were on our racket, including Michigan at Wrigley Field. I don't know if you remember that game.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yep.

[Michael Wilbon]

No, I know you did, because you watched.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yep.

[Michael Wilbon]

A field goal that, you know, that's a ninth. Another win. And we had a couple of. We had three Big Ten games, you know, in the balance, ball in the air sort of situations. So. Yes, so, yes, it is. Largely. You like to get those wins, especially, you know, when you're in the Big Ten in the sec, if you can sneak a conference game or two, you're thrilled. So. Yes, I am. I am, you know, giving golf clap right now as I drive down River Road with no hands. I'm pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty fulfilling season.

[Tony Kornheiser]

All right. There were a lot of things I was going to talk about, and I will talk about them because both Mike and I believe it's the greatest NFL season in God knows how many years because it's so wide open. But let's get to Chicago. I, I will say this. They are legit. I mean, come on. Every game against good teams, they're in it till the end. This was. Our friend David Israel sent a. Not saying this. The first game in NFL history that was tied at 7, 14, 21, 28 and 35. It just, it had never happened before. So talk about your Bears. And they hadn't, you know, they're. They're legit.

[Michael Wilbon]

Yeah, I, you know, I had. I'm, I'm not disappointed in the team. I'm disappointed by the result, but not the team. Tony, Bears history has to be taken in a couple ways. And one of them is there's no great offense ever. This is not what we have done historically, even when we've had great teams have been defensive dominant. Last night was a game unlike I've ever seen with the Bears, in which they go into San Francisco and the team that invented modern offense. And I know you agree with that.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Bill Walsh.

[Michael Wilbon]

Respect for the great Bill Walsh.

[Ryan McGee]

Right.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yes.

[Michael Wilbon]

And so that comes down through generations of other coaches, but now has rested with Shanahan the last, whatever, six, eight years or more. The Bears went toe to toe one week after the emotional tumult of playing Green Bay and winning that game to change their season, to set up their post season, they fly to San Francisco. Half the team is as sick as I was on Christmas Day and the day after, which means not out of bed.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Right.

[Michael Wilbon]

And they go toe to toe with the Niners. It was astounding to watch. Were there things. A couple of plays I'd like to have back? Yes. But I'm like, okay, let's not get. Let me not be one of those crazy college football fans and forget what I'm watching, forget who I'm watching. They went to San Francisco, a complete offensive juggernaut. Maybe not the best team in the league, but the hottest. Think you'd agree with that.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I, I would. They just have no defense, and they're never going to have defense because two of their best three defensive players are out for the year, Bosa and Warner.

[Michael Wilbon]

And the Bears don't have defensive players yet. We have to draft them as we drafted, you know, Loveland and the rookie from. Rookie receiver from Missouri. So we're flawed. And that's why I don't think San Francisco or the Bears can win the super bowl or get to the super bowl, because the Rams in Seattle, to me, have more balance. And you can't win postseason games the way the Bears had to play last night. But, my God, they. Now. Ben Johnson has. He said he was going to tear it down to the studs and rebuild it in clay. Well, he's done it in one year.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, it's.

[Aubrey Dale]

It's.

[Michael Wilbon]

And so I, I, you know, I, I'm. Let's. Let's play Detroit. Detroit's the game that redefined our season. I think we lost 52 to 17 to Detroit the first week. And, and, and that was the game in which I'm sure Ben Johnson was embarrassed. These are his colleagues from the past few years. This is his boss. This is where he made his bones. And they, they crushed Ben Johnson and the Bears in Detroit. I know if Ben Johnson says, I'm going to arrest people, I'm okay with that. But I'd like to take the Lions apart. The Lions are done. They have nothing to play for. I'd like to take them apart.

[Tony Kornheiser]

It just happens. Yeah. As you know, I think the Lions are the most disappointing team in the entire league this year because I think they're really good and they're not going to make the playoffs, and I'm. I'm surprised at that. But the Chicago Bears, as much as I wanted to doubt them, they now play two or three tough teams in a row. They're right there. They win one, they lose one. Whatever it is, they're right there the whole night with San Francisco and San Francisco's offense is terrific. Brock Purdy. There was the oddest thing yesterday, the oddest little thing. I don't know if it struck you the way it struck me. Caleb Williams was the overall number one pick in the draft. Brock Purdy was the overall last pick in the draft. And they're out there together lighting it up. Right? They're lighting it up. So.

[Michael Wilbon]

Yeah. Yeah. And they. They have different personalities, different methods to coach differently. And it was a while. It was electrifying.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah. It was really.

[Michael Wilbon]

It was funny listening to our friend Herm Edwards this morning, a former defensive player, of course, be disappointed. Mockingly. Which was totally fair about how there was just no defense in this game at all. And there wasn't. They went up and down the field like a video game.

[Tony Kornheiser]

That's great.

[Michael Wilbon]

And again, you're just not used to the Bears doing that. And I don't know what modifications can be made like. The scare for me now is that the Bears, if they don't beat Detroit and they finish tied with the Eagles, if they finish tied with the Eagles, they'll finish in second seed.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah.

[Michael Wilbon]

But if they don't win that game and the Eagles finish head on, the Bears finish in the third seed. Which means we would have to play Green Bay again, which you don't want to do.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Not three times.

[Michael Wilbon]

Play Green Bay again. There are people in your listenership who will understand the analogy I'm about to make on a. On a chilly Monday night in Lexington, Kentucky in 1985.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yes. Yes.

[Michael Wilbon]

The Georgetown Hoyas.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yes.

[Michael Wilbon]

Would have beat any team in the history of basketball. There was only one they couldn't beat that night. Villanova.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Third time.

[Michael Wilbon]

And Green Bay is to the Bears what Villanova was. Look, they've only played one playoff game in history, in the history of the NFL because the NFL used to guard against having division teams play each other early rounds. The Bears and Packers have played once. The Bears were the champion of the division. The packers got in on the wild card because the Bears let them. Lovey Smith decided to rest his team in the second half because the Bears were free and clear. Who do they meet in the NFC Championship game but young Aaron Rodgers and the Packers. And that's Aaron Rodgers only trip to the Super Bowl.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah. Yeah, I will say that again. The Bears are legit. The Patriots are legit. Drake May is. I understand it was the jets, but still, Drake May is legit. And the Bears 49ers game followed the Buffalo game, the Buffalo Philadelphia game, where Josh Allen. Josh Allen in the last eight to 10 minutes of that game, has MVP emblazoned all over his chest and then misses a wide open receiver on the two. Now they got. They have to go for two because the kicker, the kick was blocked, which the Eagles did against the Rams and won a game. And so it's an odd combination of circumstances, but Josh Allen has. Mikey has him wide open and doesn't get. Leads him by eight feet.

[Michael Wilbon]

Yeah, that's not the play that, that game was staggering to watch. That's not the play that left me. Everybody can miss. I don't Aik was missed them, Elways missed them, Mannings missed them. Maybe Brady didn't miss one, but I'm sure there are ones he would tell you he missed if he was doing that game and he wasn't. But Josh Allen's foot. Josh Allen can't push off that foot. He's. He tweaked it, he re. Injured it. He said he's going to be fine. But he was not just in a blue tent last night.

[Ryan McGee]

He was.

[Michael Wilbon]

He was getting mri. So Josh Allen, who has played as well as anybody this season, you know, that's the. That can keep Buffalo from winning, from being in a position to win. Not. I don't mean just next week. I'd sit Josh Allen down this week. There's nothing much to be gained. Buffalo could finish fifth, sixth or seventh, just like all those teams in the nfc. Seattle, the Rams, the Niners, they could finish fifth, sixth or seventh or not seventh, fifth or sixth. And so I. If I'm Buffalo, I'm sitting down. Josh Allen, he didn't get to play this weekend is not up there.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Do you. Do you have. Having watched so much football for so long and having always liked Buffalo in your heart, if you could put any team in the AFC into the super bowl, would you put Buffalo in this year? Give them a chance to finally win? Right. You would.

[Michael Wilbon]

You provided the context as you were there for my growing up in this business and covering pro football during Marv Levy, Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Reed Smith. Yeah, the greatest team to never win. And I got to know my friend Frank Reich. I got to know several of those guys and I have more than a soft spot for them. You know, sometimes I ache for them because I know I spent so much time in Buffalo. I have a sense of what it means and what Bill's Mafia. While I hate the nickname, I know what that is. I know what that is and who they are. And so, yes, I root for Buffalo and I'm rooting for him. Now, I have nothing against the other AFC teams. Who else do I like in the afc? Jacksonville is interesting. Houston is fascinating. Any of those teams could win the whole thing. But, yeah, I'm rooting for Buffalo, so.

[Tony Kornheiser]

So nobody will understand this except for you and Michael. What I'm going to say now at Columbia, the shack is after between the seventh green and the eighth tee box is a place where. The shack, where people go to eat. And it's run by George, and George is from Latin America, Georgia. Soccer fan. Soccer fan. I mean, wants to talk about soccer all the time, but also, you know, pays attention to football. He says to me the other day, I. I don't know how you feel about this, but I want Buffalo to get in. I want Buffalo to get in. And I just said, I get it. I get it. You know, having Buffalo come in. All right, let me move on, because we have three games that are meaningful coming up. Carolina, Tampa Bay is going to decide a division, and San Francisco, Seattle is going to decide the number seed and a division. And then Baltimore at Pittsburgh. Right.

[Ryan McGee]

Unbelievable.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Pittsburgh had nothing yesterday. They had no offense. You don't like Aaron Rodgers. I know. Yeah, I know.

[Michael Wilbon]

No, no, I. Yesterday, you know, I told Don as soon as that game was over, I was spent. That Cleveland, Pittsburgh game was so entertaining, and Cleveland's offense is so bad, and I don't think Shador Sanders is. Maybe he has to be coached. Like, there's a lot of quarterbacks who haven't been coached and they disappear. Inadequately coached. Mitch Trubisky, Justin Fields, they. They just. They don't. They don't. They're not with a guru that can bring out the professionalism in them. I hope Shador Sanders gets in that, a situation like that. He's not in it now. And Cleveland couldn't move the ball six inches. No, but yet that defense was so great.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yep.

[Michael Wilbon]

And they were. And Pittsburgh was so obsessed with not letting Myles Garrett have the sack record. They lost track of a game, and it was so entertaining. I told my brother, I said, you know what? I've spent more motion on Pittsburgh and Cleveland rooting against Aaron Rodgers than I'm going to spend tonight rooting for the Bears. And it was true. I wanted Pittsburgh to go down and go down hard.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, they didn't.

[Michael Wilbon]

Are they going to Baltimore? They went down hard. No, they went down. No, they went down hard.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I don't know. Well, they lose to. Apparently. That was their fourth straight loss in a row to Cleveland. So they get used to that. That now they are.

[Michael Wilbon]

But that, that's. That's rivalry, Tony. They. That's serious. Cleveland played yesterday like a playoff birth was on the line for them when.

[Tony Kornheiser]

It wasn't played well. And it went Baltimore, Pittsburgh. I don't know what's going to happen with Lamar Jackson, but, you know, you got to run. You got to run Derrick Henry, you guys, I don't.

[Michael Wilbon]

I don't think. I wouldn't even play Lamar Jackson. Lamar Jackson not even any good in the playoffs.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, I don't.

[Michael Wilbon]

So, you know, I mean, can you saddle up? Are they. Are the, Are the. Are. Is the coaching staff. So I'm talking Harbaugh and Monkey. Are they. Are they smart enough to. To realize we got this guy who's a Hall of Famer right now? We should. We should put him in the huddle in a gold jacket, and we're going to tell him coming in, you may fumble once or twice. We don't care. We're going to ride you for 30 carries or more, depending on the nature of the game and the context, and then do it. But I don't know if Baltimore is smart enough. I don't know if the brain trust and John Harbaugh is a really, really, really, really, really successful, terrific coach for a long time. But if he can't. If he can't make his offensive coordinator understand, here's how we're going to play. If I, if I own that team, I'd run him out of there and call the plays myself because we're going to Henry every damn chance we get.

[Tony Kornheiser]

That would be the way to do it. You shorten the game, although you don't, you know, you don't have to shorten the game because it's not like Aaron Rodgers can beat you by going down the field. Because he doesn't go down the field.

[Michael Wilbon]

No, because he can't.

[Tony Kornheiser]

He can't throw it deep. He can't. All right. All right, I'll talk to you later. All right, so, Mike Wilbon, boys and girls. Happy Mike Wilbon today. Happy Mike Wilbon. We'll take a break. Ryan McGee will join us when we return. I'm Tony Kornheiser. This is the Tony Kornheiser Show.

[Michael Wilbon]

Tony Kornheiser Show.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Once again, we are playing Aubrey Dale, who's really good. Really good. This is a song called California Sober Again. You can listen to both our songs when we're done yapping here. Michael, if independent artists like Aubrey Dale want to get their music played on this big stage, how do they do It.

[Tony's Son]

Send us your music by emailing it.

[Tony Kornheiser]

To jingles@tony koenizershow.com and Aubrey Dale plays in Ryan McGee. We're going to talk about college football. We're going to talk about that NASCAR lawsuit. But let's start with college football and just ask the, the immediate and obvious question. Has anything surprised you so far in the playoff?

[Ryan McGee]

No. I mean, other than the fact that, you know, last year, what, the home teams went 4, 0 in the first round.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan McGee]

And this, this year, they lost the first. They lost two. So that, that, that's the biggest thing.

[Michael Wilbon]

But I know, I mean, Miami baffles.

[Ryan McGee]

Me a little bit because they look so bad when they look bad, but then their defense looks so good in College Station. So Miami is the one team that I just look at and I'm like, I'm not sure what we'll get round to round, but, you know, that's, that's why we like to playoffs.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Well, this is. College football is now dominated by the SEC and the Big Ten. And now with the eight teams that are left, we have three Big Ten teams, none of whom have played yet. Three SEC teams. This is as you thought. Yes. You thought this would happen.

[Michael Wilbon]

Yeah.

[Ryan McGee]

I mean, anyone. And if, if it were up to the commissioners of those two conferences, they'd be the only two conferences in the playoff, which I think is terrible for college football. And listen, you're talking to a guy who co hosts the show on the SEC network. And I just, but I, I like, you know, I think we can all agree that James Madison was, was in over at Skis, but it didn't bother me one bit that Tulane was in the playoffs. And so I like, I like it when it's the whole point. Right. Tony was to. Everybody complained we need March Madness and more teams need a shot. And you know, you know, the, all the teams of the four that didn't make the playoff, they're all complaining. Nobody's paying attention to us. So this was the answer and now we have it. And of course, you know, people, people complain about it because that's what people do.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Well, yeah, and I guess I'm one of those complainers. I mean, because I don't want, if you only have 12 teams, I don't want there to be a charity aspect to it. And to me, to me, Tulane and James Madison could not beat Texas and Notre Dame. They just could not. And you know, I've been shouted down by Wilbon about this a thousand times. And I don't mind because I actually Think I'm in the minority, but because I think you're, you would take the position of the gang of five teams is fine to be in there.

[Ryan McGee]

I mean, give one, you know, I just, because, because the, what I worry about, about college football is the fact that there's almost 140 teams. And when I'm on these campuses, football drives everything. And when I talk to Kirby Smart about this, you know, who grew up around the corner from Valdosta State and I talked to, you know, even Nick Saban about this, though he seems to have changed his tune now. But he used to always talk about, you know, when he coached at Toledo and his alma mater, Kent State. And it's like, you know, at least being able to, if you're Appalachian State, if you're Coastal Carolina, if you're San Diego State, recruiting on, if you come here, we could make the playoffs. You know, we've made the playoff before and, and again, it's, to me it's not any different than, you know, what's going to happen when we finally have, you know, our UMBC run. Right. Our David run.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah.

[Ryan McGee]

You know, and that's what everybody kind of wants and you know, they'll expand it and when they do a couple of other gang of fives here, but they've got to build something otherwise why even have a program. And, and I just, I don't think it's good for college football if going in, you know, that we all know we're the best we can do is a GMAC bowl. Well, how about, how about something, how about something to recruit on and just give them one spot, you know, and one day somebody's going to win that first round game and everybody's going to go crazy and it's going to be great. But they can't win it if we don't give them a chance.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Oh, they're not going to win it until it's an expanded field. I mean, I just, I don't think so. But, you know, the thing that bothered me the most was Miami getting in and Notre Dame not getting in. Not, you know, I understand Miami beat Notre Dame, though that was in August, you know, a long time before at home for Miami. I believe that that wasn't it. It was the committee persistently ranking Notre Dame ahead of Miami by as many as three and four spots and, and then, and then gerrymandering the whole thing at the end to get Miami in it. I really, it angered me not because I thought it was unfair, but it was such an obvious Move that they made. I don't know how you sleep at night doing that.

[Ryan McGee]

Yeah, and it's interesting too, because I think I've done those mock selection committee deals where we go to Grapevine, Texas and we sit in the room and the computers are the same and I'm sitting in Condoleezza Rice's chair. And you go through the whole process. And I think what people don't understand is at no point does the room look at their rankings as a group and go, all right, no, no, no, take them and move them up on and take them and move them down. It is literally they submit ballot after ballot after ballot and they kind of do it round after round. And so it's a group thing. And I think they put the committee chair in an impossible. He can't defend that position when he sits in there because. Because that's not how the room works. And if you just say, yeah, man, I was surprised too, because the room kept doing so and so, but the room did it. But they all did it separately. And so it's interesting to me that whoever the chair is has to sit there and defend it as if it was this, you know, group project where they all, as a group, you know, started moving magnets up and down the board.

[Michael Wilbon]

That's really.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Not only, not only does he defend it, but they say, well, we don't really want to do this television show anymore. We think ESPN is to blame. Well, ESPN is not to blame. No, you got to do the television show. What are you talking about? Where do you think the money comes from? All right, who do you like in this round?

[Ryan McGee]

Well, I am really curious about Indiana because I keep picking against them and I keep waiting on them, and I'm guilty of it. I remember Nick Saban on game day, it was when they were at Vanderbilt and they're talking about Diego Pabbi and all this. And Nick Saban just said, listen, I have a. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around all of this because Vanderbilt is Vanderbilt and I am very guilty of that with Indiana. Like, I keep waiting on them to suddenly wake up and go, oh, okay, nevermind, imposter syndrome. We're not actually this good, but they are that good. And so they're the team that fascinates me. And the fact that they're in the Rose bowl for the first time in a billion years and they're playing Alabama, which, you know, is obviously is the gold standard for college football. Sure, Indiana fascinates me. And if they were to beat Alabama in the Rose Bowl. It is really difficult for me to not just stay with them all the way through. And then I saw Georgia in person at the SEC championship game. And that is a team that is not just peaking at the right time, but they have been in so many close games on so many big Saturday night stages, prime time. That, that's a team that feels like it's built for a title run and they're kind of mad that nobody's talking about him. So I have my eye on Indiana and Georgia, which of course means they'll both lose.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I understand that. What do you think, what do you think of the Michigan hire? What do you think of that?

[Ryan McGee]

Well, my man crush on Kyle winning ham is well documented like I think he is. We were talking about if they had a, if they had a coaches bunkhouse stampede right when they had that wrestling deal. You take all the coaches and put them in a ring, like who's going to win the fight? I'm like, give me Kyle Whittingham versus the field. Like I just think he's. And what he built at Utah is phenomenal. And so I think if you're listen.

[Michael Wilbon]

There, it's in chaos there.

[Ryan McGee]

Right. I mean it's institutional loss of control, it's embarrassment. You know, it's two incredibly different but incredibly embarrassing scandals.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yes.

[Ryan McGee]

If you want a guy that's going to come in and is like going to just ground everybody and this is how we play football and this is how we coach football and we're not going to be stupid. Kyle Whittingham is the guy and I'm excited for him because I don't think he was ready to be done. I know he wasn't. He was very vocal about I'm not retiring, I'm just stepping down at Utah. And so I think it's fascinating. I really do. And I. But I'm crazy about him. But he is a no nonsense guy and Michigan could use a big old dose of no nonsense right now.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Well, yeah. So my, my overall feeling about this is that Michigan has now had a coach who's a pervert and a coach before that who will break any rule that exists just because he wants to do it. And they need somebody who's not going to do that. I am not going to be surprised if at the end of three years he's gone and they pay him for five because what he's going to give them is, is as you say, to be grounded again. To, to be the University of Michigan. There's no list. I'm a public School guy. There's no list where the top three public schools in America are not Michigan, Berkeley, and Virginia. There's just no list. And Michigan, they need to get back to being Michigan on a larger level than these two coaches have allowed them to do lately. So I think he's like, stopgap, but for all the right reasons. But I don't. You know, maybe he's a better coach than that. Maybe he's a great coach. I just think it's difficult to move from Utah to Michigan. I think that's difficult move.

[Ryan McGee]

Yeah. It reminds me of when Baylor was trying to recover from. I mean, that incredible run they have with RG3. And then the most just unimaginable series of sexual assaults. I mean, my buddy Mark Slayball Pauloine wrote a great book about it. And what did they do to hire Jim Grove? And Jim Grove, you know, there is nobody more down the middle, old school, like professorial. This is how we're going to do practice. You know, if you're on time, you're late. That kind of guy. And that's who Kyle Whittingham is. So you're exactly right. Maybe what he does is he's the guy that hits the reset button that they need and sets them up for what all happens in the future. And say it's Bill o' Brien at Penn State, someone who can come in and just say, listen, I appreciate everything y' all have done here before. It has nothing to do with what we're going to do now. We're going to get back to just being a core, you know, moral place.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yeah. And you got to get rid of the ad, too. You got to get rid of him, too. And I'm sure they will. I'm sure they will. Let me switch gears completely because. Because you know so much about nascar. Could you explain all I know? And of course, I sit next to Wilbond, so Wilbur says, jordan's right. Jordan's right. Everything Jordan does is right. Okay, fine. All I know is that Michael Jordan and I'll just talk for a little while, and then you can go backwards on me. Michael Jordan sued nascar. You know, Michael Jordan sued nascar. It was settled. So I assumed that NASCAR thought it was going to lose and reached out to settle the suit, because I think if NASCAR thought it was going to win, it wouldn't have done that. And my overarching question is, why would you ever want Michael Jordan as a partner if within, you know, just a few years, he sued you? Can you explain it? And maybe I'm totally wrong here.

[Michael Wilbon]

I don't know.

[Ryan McGee]

And just so you know, you sitting with Wilbond, this is like me sitting with Marty Smith.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Okay.

[Ryan McGee]

Michael can do no wrong. Right. Marty grew up with Michael. Posters on the wall and where's Jordan's to church. Right. So obviously I, I feel you and I very much on the same page. Yeah, but, but it is so Michael. So NASCAR race teams, NASCAR race drivers, NASCAR race tracks, it's all a. It's a sport built around independent contractors. And the problem with that is, is that I watched hall of Famers, Ricky Rudd, Bill Elliott, Jeff O'Dine, I mean, Darrell Waltrip go all the way down the list. They all decided when they were done driving or while they were still driving, I'm going to also own a team. But then when they're, when their racing career was over with, they had to auction off their life for pennies on the dollar. There was no, no equity was built in these races.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Okay.

[Michael Wilbon]

Okay.

[Ryan McGee]

And so the argument that Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin, who is currently driving for Joe Gibbs, but also co owns this other team with Michael Jordan, their argument was, we need something. We need more equity in what we're building here. And all the race teams went to NASCAR back in 2016 and said, we know you don't want us to have franchises, but can we do something to help us build equity? Because right now they have nothing to sell, right? They have. They can't bring in partners because they can't even explain what it is that they have. And so they came up with this charter system which is basically franchise light, but they would renew every seven years when NASCAR renewed their media rights deal because that's where the money came from. And NASCAR started writing checks, and now the teams have something they can sell, a piece of paper that says, this is what I own. I have a guaranteed starting spot in every NASCAR race. I get guaranteed money for participating in that race. And that's what that was. Michael who came from the NBA and his management team who came from the NBA argued, well, they should be franchised. Like, why are we doing this? Contract to contract. These should be permanent charters, like permanent franchise. You know, this is what I own. You know, you know, as long as I want to own it, which is what might as well. Michael made all his money selling a Hornet. And so that's what went to court. And nascar, their business models based very largely on, you know, what Bill France senior built in the 1940s. And now Bill France Sr's son is the chairman of nascar. Jim France. And as soon as Jim France took the stand, I think everyone knew, oh, they're going to lose.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Oh, yeah, that's what I figured.

[Ryan McGee]

Right. And that's where the settlement came from. So, yeah, you want Michael Jordan because NASCAR needs big names and they trot him out all the time. Michael Jordan co owns a race team, you know, driven by Bubba Wallace and this amazing. There's a 23 car, you know, with the Jumpman logo on the hood.

[Michael Wilbon]

It's great.

[Ryan McGee]

But then Denny Hamlin, who is one of your future hall of fame drivers, and Michael Jordan, who's maybe the greatest athlete of all time, sued you because of something they wanted and they won. And he's got really contentious.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Like.

[Ryan McGee]

What I want to know when we get to Daytona is can all of these hurt feelings, you know, be mended because this is a very small community and it's going to be very, very awkward when we all get to the garage of Daytona in February.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Now, I know too much for Wilbond. I know too much. And Wilbond is just going to scream at me. Don't you understand? It's Michael Jordan. Okay, Ryan, thanks so much for being on. We don't have you on a lot, but we really love having you on. So thanks for making the time. Appreciate it.

[Ryan McGee]

You call me whenever and happy holidays, everybody out there.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Okay, Ryan McGee, boys and girls. We'll take a break. We will come back with email and jingle. I'm Tony Kornheiser. You're listening to the Tony Kornheiser Show. Here comes Tony's mail bag. Email, faxes and notes.

[Michael Wilbon]

Here.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Here comes Tony Mayo. Going to read some for all of you. A great thanks to Pat Baz for that. I like listening to that Hank Williams. Do you have a Bethesda bagel read for us?

[Chris]

Bagel sandwiches.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Michael's missing them. Yeah, you get two. Yes.

[Chris]

Just go to Bethesda Bagels.com for the location in the D.C. area near Susan. Pop on in and you will be thrilled.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Before we get to the mailbag, let me just say. When you were young and your heart was an open book, you used to say live and let live. You know you did, you know you did, you know you did. But in this ever changing world in which we're living Makes you give in and cry. Say live and let die. That's 007. Yes. That's from the Bond series of movies. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

Which if you ever get the chance to see Paul McCartney play that song live, it's fantastic. Oh, I'm not big explosions when he says live and let dine is this big thunderous like the whole stage explodes. It's fantastic.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Thanks to our guests today, Michael Wilbon and Ryan McGee. Thanks as well to today's sponsors. Remember, you can listen to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and ought to see if get showed through Apple. Please leave us a review from our friend Patrick Sitter, Sioux Falls, South Dakota have you tried checking your email on your iPhone without wearing a golf club? That's very funny. It's very funny. I don't think I'm having cognitive failure. I don't think From Kevin Korn, Seattle, WA after hearing that your emails are with AOL, did you ever stop to think that the villain of your story is none other than former AOL executive Ted Leoncis? You think he's reached out to make sense? Email Neil Ayervase Grandpa Tony until listening to your continuing diatribe about your phone and missing emails, the only living person I knew who still used AOL emails is the woman to whom I'm related by marriage. Seemingly, the demographics of AOL email users must mirror those of the podcast between 65 and dead. Hearing your concern that the missing emails must now number in the hundreds was akin to having your voice come out of my wife's mouth. I'm regularly astounded when, even in a couple of days of inattention to our emails requires the deletion of more emails than I receive in a month, virtually all of them relating to goods and services that she neither wants nor needs or has even heard of at any point in her life. Apparently, if she happens to sit at a stoplight and glance at a store within the next 24 hours, she will receive an offer from that store and from a dozen of the brands sold at that store. Like you, she rails that attempting to slow the swarm of locusts by hitting the unsubscribe button only multiplies the unwanted emails. Yes, yes. Much like a surgeon trying to excise a malignant tumor only to have the cancer spread to every other organ. I have long since abandoned trying to convince my wife to switch email providers, since AOL's electronic tendrils have her irretrievably in their grasp. Michael, at least you can tell Tony can stop paying for aol. Maybe that will assuage some of his angst. You know I get emails from Nordica. I get 20 emails a day from Nautica. You know why?

[Chris]

Stop?

[Tony Kornheiser]

Yes, stop. From Brendan Steenbergen, Columbia, Missouri Happy holidays to you and yours. I listen with interest as you mentioned the Chiefs move from Arrowhead. The discussion centered around whether the regional culture around Kansas City was such that this move might be controversial. As a lifelong Missourian and Chiefs fan, let me Throw in my 2 cents F the Chiefs for eternally for slithering to the godforsaken hellscape that is Kansas. We Missourians have hated the fetid Kansans in our foul land since before the Civil War. Those of us who attended Mizzou refused to even capitalize the K in Kansas, and it is not a proper state and doesn't deserve to be treated as a proper noun. Merryweather Lewis, the first regional governor of Missouri, declared the water of the Kansas river quote more turbid than that of the Missouri and almost intolerable to the taste. That description is also applicable to most comparisons of the two states. Kansas City existed in Missouri before there was a state of Kansas, and I suggest they change the name of their putrid state. I wish the Chiefs nothing but ill will and hope Ill fortune finds them at every turn. But other than that, I have no opinions on the matter. Happy holidays and Happy New Year. Okay, okay. Patrick Ratliff in Corinth, Texas. Put your seatbelt on for this one. My daughter's birthday is July 19, 2017. That's right. Her birthday is 7. 1917. A palindrome. It's a memorable birthday, so it's really easy to pick up up her medicine for the local CVS. Except for the time the cashier thought the 17 meant 1917. Yeah, right. My daughter's 108. Where's Evelyn when you need her? From Derek in Abilene, Kansas. I found your bocce ball. What are you willing to pay? Bill Isaacson. As an eventful year comes to an end, I thought you might enjoy some wedding photos from the New Orleans wedding of my son, Nick Isaacson and Grace Newcomb about two months ago. Nick was pleased that you kept the commitment I made for you when I promised Nick, after I sent you a wedding invitation, that you would not be able to attend. Grace has no idea who you are, but would have been happy to see you anyway, so. We love having someone like Grace join our family. Wedding, travel and crowds at a wedding are not your thing, but you might have enjoyed the rehearsal dinner at Restaurant Zazu, run by our friend Chef Sue Zamanik, which the following week received a Michelin star. Wow. One of only three restaurants in Louisiana received that honor. Ask Carville. On one other note, I do not think that New Year's resolutions are your thing, but I do have an idea for 2026. After you make your next potato harvest, I suggest you wrap them in foil, bury them in your matchbox urn, light a few matches, step back from the urn, and enjoy some wine while the potatoes flash cook. After you like the urn, though, you may need to drink the wine quickly. Anyway, Nigel, save this email for potato season. So that's lovely. And then pictures of the wedding. Oh, there's Bill. Oh, these are just great. I've seen these before. These are lovely. Thank you very much for these. Thank you so much. Cody Thorne in Fort Worth, Texas. I saw this building next to DFW Airport in Grapevine and wanted to share. We all know how much Tony loves air travel. Way to diversify that portfolio after chatter oh, so it's TK Aviation. So yes, I bought a bunch of planes.

[Aubrey Dale]

Yeah.

[Tony Kornheiser]

Martin Ward, Aurora, Colorado I have a new car with a whole bunch of whistles and bells and computer stuff that I'm only using about 10% of the capacity of its potential. While driving and listening to Tuesday's show, as you were introducing Alexa, that day's musical guest, my car kept pausing the podcast for a few moments. You would come back on and say Alexa's name again. The podcast would stop again for a few moments. After the third time, the car said with an exasperated voice, can I help you? That was when I realized I had a mobile Alexa app in the entertainment system and after hearing its name, was waiting for me to ask it something. So thank you for helping me expand my knowledge of my own car's features. Now I can just ask my car pointless information that comes to mind as I'm driving in the moment rather than telling myself I need to look that up when I get the chance. And of course forgetting all about it by the time I reach my destination. That's lovely. And that's one of the reasons I'm afraid to get a new car, because the technology is so great and leaves me so far behind. It's just going to be we already have OnStar. I have. I don't have OnStar anymore.

[Tony's Son]

Turn by turn.

[Tony Kornheiser]

I have turn by turn. I can I call up and I say, could you please give me turn by turn directions?

[Chris]

That's why I bought a car that is before all of this.

[Tony Kornheiser]

You don't have to have to deal with Patrick is in France. Paris, formerly Chantilly. Patrick Nugent. Your description of enjoying the turkey club reminded me of Jean Paul Lahiri, Pulitzer Prize winner, writing about her sandwich. I probably butchered that pronunciation quote I hear the babble of people as they chatter on and on. I'm amazed at our impulse to express ourselves, explain ourselves, tell stories to one another. The simple sandwich I always get amazes me too. As I eat it, my body bakes in the sun that pours down on my neighborhood. Each bite, feeling sacred, reminds me that I'm not forsaken. That's it. That's a sandwich. Please tell Kathy and Paul and Herndon to eat it. Eat it. The sandwich, I guess. I don't know. Get out of your bike tight everyone, as always do wear what update up my iPhone and everything looks slightly different and it's pissing me off.

[Aubrey Dale]

I never thought I'd settle down in a town like this one thought that I'd be long gone by now I didn't see him coming so I didn't know what hit me Now I drink too much whiskey while he smokes margarine SM so pull me a double and bring him a letter we'll be together through the highs and the lows it might not be perfect But I'm his forever forever baby or until the cows.

[Michael Wilbon]

Come on.

[Aubrey Dale]

He says he thinks I'm funny and that he's crazy about me the truth is I'm mad about him too Know that I'd be lying if I said it didn't scare me so I drink too much whiskey while he smokes mar so p me a D and bring him a ladder we be together through the highs and the lows it might not be perfect I'm his forever forever baby or until the counts come on guitar. Guess he'll meet my daddy and ask for his permission to take me down to that old church the second that it's over I'm taking taking him home with me and I'll drink too much whiskey while he smokes my boy so call me a double and bring him a ladder we'll be together through the highs and the lows it might not be perfect But I'm his forever Forever baby Or until the gal is gone Forever baby. Last night I had one too many I don't know how I got home Waking up in last night's makeup I'm too scared to look at my phone I think it's time to quit it and I ain't going to miss you going counting for your soul I need to start over no more head overs I'm going counting for your soul. All my friends they that it's funny when my alter ego walks through that door Truth is that I don't like her and she ain't welcome around here no more. One thing's for sure, I ain't going to miss her going California so I need to start over no more in your over I'm going California so. I thought he was a 10. Turns out he was a 4. Never going back to that bar no more. I need to start over no more hangovers I'm going California so good California.

[Michael Wilbon]

So.

[Aubrey Dale]

I need a starter. My mom's not going to like this.