Ariana in Wicked and How to Cast a Billion-Dollar Movie

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: Ariana in Wicked and How to Cast a Billion-Dollar Movie
Date: December 11, 2025
Guests: Tiffany Little Canfield (Casting Director), Greg Horbeck (Producer)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Matthew Belloni dives deep into the world of high-stakes Hollywood casting, focusing on the upcoming film adaptation of Wicked and the broader challenges of assembling billion-dollar movie casts. Special guest Tiffany Little Canfield, one of Hollywood’s top casting directors (and an Academy member), offers a behind-the-scenes look at how casting decisions are made for major studio franchises, the new Academy Award category for casting, and the complex factors influencing who gets the big roles—including talent, public expectation, and even social media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Oscars’ New Casting Category (00:49)

• The Academy is set to add a new “Achievement in Casting” Oscar for the 98th Oscars in March.
• Belloni: “It’s a long time coming... casting directors play a crucial role in populating film and TV with the right actors, discovering new talent, et cetera.”
• Discussion on how voters will evaluate which movies are the “best cast”—considering both star power and fit for roles.

The Wicked Casting Process (03:03 – 10:16)

• Universal’s mandate for casting Wicked was unusually open: “find the two best actors for these witches.”
• Little Canfield reveals they even considered unknowns, seeing “hundreds” of actors and not limiting themselves to stars.
• Little Canfield (03:49): “We didn’t have a mandate like that on this one... it was find the two best actors for these witches.”
• Star power (Ariana Grande) balanced with Broadway prestige (Cynthia Erivo) but the focus was on talent, especially vocal ability.
• Other actors, like Amanda Seyfried, came very close (“She got very close. I love Amanda. She’s incredibly talented.” [05:52]).

Studio Control and Decision-making (06:02 – 07:20)

• Studio (Universal) ultimately approves choices, but director Jon Chu and producer Marc Platt had major influence.
• Belloni challenges the notion of true openness, referencing the business value of star power.
• Little Canfield: “There was a lot of questioning of Ari when she was announced... a double-edged sword when the audience has such an expectation.”

Dealing with Backlash and Online Discourse (07:48 – 10:16)

• Disney casting (e.g., Rachel Zegler in Snow White) often faces pre-release social media backlash.
• Little Canfield: “At the end of the day, we talk about them a lot... But we are making decisions that we think are fresh and important, regardless of some of the negative things.” [08:22]
• The focus remains on talent and essence of the character, not just online perception or box office guesses.

Wide Net Casting for Musicals & Inclusivity (10:19 – 12:58)

• For films like Moana, thousands of self-tapes are screened.
• The process relies on emotional instinct—“you feel it right away” during auditions.
• Casting platforms/databases help manage and classify submissions, but the human touch stays vital.

Creative Choices and Out-of-box Casting (12:58 – 15:14)

• Little Canfield explores “out-of-box” candidates and brings unique faces/skills into the mix—even within large ensemble scenes.
• The importance of casting for world-building and authenticity in fantasy and period pieces is underscored.

Agents, Managers, & the Flood of Submissions (15:14 – 17:32)

• The rise of “cut-and-paste” or AI-driven submissions from agents is overwhelming for casting directors.
• Personalized pitches with specific reasons (“that’s a pitch... I wanted to meet her immediately.” [16:33]) are far more effective.

Ryan Murphy, Creative Inspiration, and “Stunt” Casting (17:32 – 19:31)

• Casting for high-profile showrunners (e.g., Ryan Murphy) relies on inspiring the creator, not just filling celebrity quotas.
• Finding surprising, inspired choices can be thrilling (“what would get me excited if I saw a Deadline article about this announcement?” [18:39]).

Franchise Film Casting: The Thrill and The Frustration (21:02 – 24:37)

• The most exciting part is seeing lives change when someone gets a huge role. Example: Nicholas Galitzine (now cast as He-Man).
• Scheduling is the biggest logistical hurdle, particularly in today’s “peak TV” era.
• Ariana Grande’s journey to landing Wicked was a major highlight for Little Canfield:
  • Little Canfield (23:35): “Honestly, Ariana Grande for Wicked... was so incredible.”
  • Dropping pop-star persona, her preparation and willingness to audition multiple times impressed the casting team.

Self-Tapes: Democratization or Loss? (24:37 – 25:20)

• Self-tapes and remote auditions have made casting more inclusive, letting casting directors expand searches far beyond the traditional 10-person shortlist.

Hollywood’s “Young Star Problem” (25:20 – 26:57)

• Fame is now diffuse across platforms, making true star-making harder and increasing pressure to rely on the “same 10 people” for big projects.

Social Media and Marketing: Are They Decisive? (26:57 – 27:59)

• Studios may cite social media as a casting factor, but Little Canfield remains skeptical:
  • Little Canfield (27:13): “I'm kind of jaded about that...I think there’s whole groups of people who run someone's social media.”
  • Points to Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence succeeding without social profiles.

The New Casting Oscar: Industry Impact (28:13 – 29:05)

• The Oscar for casting has already raised the field’s profile, helping demystify the process and opportunities for both actors and the public.

Great Casting in Movie History (29:05 – 29:47)

• Little Canfield’s pick: Jaws—even small, one-line characters were memorable (“if you say the line, I still see those people.” [29:18]).

Challenges of Period Casting and “Face Work” (29:47 – 30:36)

• The modern “facelift” and cosmetic procedures create obstacles for period-accurate casting.
• Producers sometimes specifically ask for “natural faces.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On auditions for Wicked:
  “It was…an embarrassment of riches…because people really engaged in this.”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (05:52)
• On Star Power vs. Talent:
  “There was a lot of questioning of Ari[ana] when she was announced. And so I think there’s a double edged sword when the audience has such an expectation and a point of view about the performer already.”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (07:48)
• On Representation Emails:
  “The biggest problem is what’s starting to happen is a cut and paste… It's almost like we just have to delete it because we can’t even find our real emails.”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (15:51)
• On Ariana Grande’s Wicked Audition:
  “She came in very much in… the ponytail and the makeup… we really kind of asked her, can you come back and drop all that?... her commitment to the audition, her preparation… It’s a real creative process…”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (23:50)
• On Social Media as a Casting Factor:
  “I think fame should be a slightly embarrassing byproduct of good work. So why don’t we focus there?”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (27:59)
• On Casting Jaws:
  “Even characters with one line, if you say the line, I still see those people.”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (29:18)
• On Plastic Surgery & Period Pieces:
  “That’s a big conversation. That’s a really, really big conversation.”
  — Tiffany Little Canfield (30:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Oscars’ Achievement in Casting discussion | 00:49–02:54 | | Wicked: Casting process, mandate, star power | 03:03–07:48 | | Social media backlash in casting | 07:48–10:16 | | Wide net casting for musicals like Moana | 10:19–12:58 | | Out-of-box creative casting, ensemble building | 12:58–15:14 | | Agents & submissions: what works, what doesn’t | 15:14–17:32 | | Ryan Murphy and creative casting strategies | 17:32–19:31 | | Franchise casting excitement, Nicholas Galitzine | 21:02–22:30 | | Ariana Grande’s audition journey | 23:35–24:37 | | Self-tapes—democratization of auditioning | 24:37–25:20 | | The “Young Star Problem” in Hollywood | 25:20–26:57 | | Social media and star selection | 26:57–27:59 | | The new Casting Oscar’s industry ripple effect | 28:13–29:05 | | Greatest casting in movie history: Jaws | 29:05–29:47 | | Challenges of cosmetic procedures & period casting | 29:47–30:36 |

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Casting directors are finally getting overdue recognition for their role in shaping iconic films.
• The process is more open than most realize—talent, instinct, and fit often trump pure celebrity, even in tentpole productions.
• Online fandom and backlash are considered but rarely decisive. Studios want both box office and lasting resonance.
• Self-tapes have made casting more democratic, but relationships, creative inspiration, and industry knowledge still matter deeply.
• The modern “star system” is fractured; finding real star power is as challenging—and as important—as ever.

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Transcript

[Matt Bellany]

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[AMC Announcer]

AMC, the home of award winning drama and unforgettable originals, brings you more in 2026.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Prepare to have your mind blown with.

[AMC Announcer]

A new season of the critically acclaimed Dark Wings. You cannot separate spiritual from upholding the law. All new Anne Rice is the vampire Lestat. I'm a rock star now.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I am everywhere.

[AMC Announcer]

Plus the Audacity, a bold new series from a producer of succession and Better Call Saul with Zach Galifianakis and Billy Magnuson coming in 2026 only to AMC.

[Matt Bellany]

It is Thursday, December 11th. It's very rare for the Oscars to add or subtract a category. In fact, it's been 25 years since the Academy added an award that was for best Animated feature. But Starting with the 98th Oscars in March, they're adding achievement in casting. It's a long time coming. The Academy has had a casting branch since 2013, and casting directors obviously play a crucial role in populating film and TV with the right actors discovering new talent, et cetera. But how are voters going to evaluate movies to determine which ones are the best cast? I wanted to have a veteran casting director and Academy member on the show to discuss and to talk more broadly about the evolution of casting over the past few years, especially casting these major studio franchise roles, the big sought after gets that often draw thousands of wannabe stars and require round after round of self tapes and auditions and chemistry reads, sometimes with multiple levels of filmmakers and studio executives and a sign off with everything from an actor's social media profile to their salary demands to their willingness to shoot in a particular location. It all plays a role in who stars in these big movies. The film adaptation of Wicked was one of those projects who would play Elphaba and Galinda was literally a billion dollar question for Universal. And it fell in part to Tiffany Little Canfield who along with her partner Bernie Telsey was the lead casting director on the two part adaptation of the Broadway Wicked. Tiffany has cast a ton of films including big Disney musicals like the recent live action Little Mermaid and Snow White. She's doing Moana right now that's coming out next year and a ton of TV like Only Murders in the Building and this Is Us, a bunch of Ryan Murphy shows. We're going to get into the new Oscar category and we're also Going to talk about the challenges of casting these big movies, how casting can generate backlash. We saw that with Snow White, of course, and the feeling when you nail it. Like on Wicked, which was not an easy movie to cast. Today, it's the casting process on the biggest of the big movies from the inside, from the Ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town.

Okay. We are here with Tiffany Little Canfield, casting director extraordinaire. Welcome.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Thank you for having me.

[Matt Bellany]

We love casting directors. We had Denise Chamian on the show last year. She was fantastic. And I want to get into the casting Oscar and the edition this year. But first, I want to talk about Wicked, because this was not an easy project to cast. A lot of space spotlight on this movie. A lot of pressures coming from all directions. You guys kind of nailed it. So I want to talk about how that process came together. What is the mandate from Universal when you have that first meeting with them and with John Chu saying, let's find our stars, what do they say to you? Do they say, we need a pop star of a certain magnitude? Do they say, we don't care who you get as long as the voices are good? Like, what is the mandate?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

We didn't have a mandate like that on this one, which is so fantastic. It was find the two best actors for these witches. So we were able to have a really open process, but they're not doing unknowns.

[Matt Bellany]

They're not going to cast unknowns.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yes, they were.

[Matt Bellany]

They were.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

They said the two best they could be still in school. We saw actors who were still in school that we were aware. Yeah, definitely.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay. Because the way I read it, when the cat, when they were announced, was they knew they had star power with Ariana Grande. So they were able to go with Cynthia Erivo, who is basically an amazing singer and actress and not a name that they knew would be able to be sold. The core fans would love her because she's a Broadway star. But Ariana Grande brings in a general audience. So you guys were a little bit. You were able to be bold and cast someone like Cynthia Erivo. But you're saying it could have been anyone.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

This is a unique project. We did not have that at all. In fact, there were some, you know, initially some questions about what a pop star. Would that make the film, like, be taken seriously. Right. I think we were in a really rare example where we've had an international hit Broadway show that is still very, very popular globally. And we needed the best actors for the part. And so there was no mandate on those roles at all.

[Matt Bellany]

So how many did you see?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Oh, my God, hundreds. I mean, we really saw between the two of them. Although you are limited by knowing who can sing these roles, because these roles are both incredibly difficult to sing. I've worked on a lot of musicals. Sometimes the director and the studio are not that interested in the singing. They know they can fix and post or whatever they feel. They just want the star power. This was a case where we really knew that the vocal storytelling is completely aligned with the acting story. So it would be best if we could have people who could really sing it. However, we saw people who would probably need to be helped in post.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Amanda Seyfried has talked about how she really wanted it. How close did she get?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

She got very close. I love Amanda. She's incredibly talented. It was. It was an embarrassment of riches to. Towards the end of the process because people really engaged in this.

[Matt Bellany]

On a project of this size and with these kinds of budgets involved, who is the ultimate decider?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Ultimately, from my perspective, of course, we have to have approval. You know, like, the choices need to be approved by Universal. That's. I mean, that's anywhere you go, right. Like that the studio ultimately is going to approve. But I felt like Mark Platt and John Chu, we worked so closely with.

[Matt Bellany]

Them, choose the director.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Correct. Right. So John and Mark, to me, ultimately had such a unified vision and are such incredible, you know, like, they're an incredible director, producer. I felt like they were going to be able to convince anyone that we need that this was the right choice.

[Matt Bellany]

And what would that conversation have been like if you had said our choices are two unknown actresses you've never heard of?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I think the conversation would be. Would be, take a look at these auditions.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, but let's get real. They knew, like, if I'm Donna Langley, like, you know, as long as Ariana can pass the singing test and you believe in her as an actress, you know the value there, I mean, it's. With all of these big projects, you know the value of a star. Like Universal's doing Alice in Wonderland with Sabrina Carpenter. That's going to be a nice match there.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Right. But Sabrina Carpenter is an actress who's been proven on Broadway and has been proven in as an actor as well. And so this isn't necessarily, like, sometimes you can be dead in the water when the announcement comes out and the fans of the show, people don't like it. There was a lot of questioning of Ari when she was announced. And so I think there's A double edged sword when the audience has such an expectation and a point of view about the performer already.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. How much does that factor in these days? I mean, Disney, you've worked with Disney a lot and they get so, so raked over the coals when they announced the star of one of these iconic properties, whether it's Snow White or whether, you know, you're working on Tangled right now. Like how much I want to correct you.

[Greg Horbeck]

We don't.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

We're not doing Tangled. But we did. Do I know exactly what you're talking about?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, exactly. But you see, you did Snow White. You saw the backlash, you know, Rachel Zegler, all of that. How much do those conversations permeate when the casting process?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

At the end of the day, we talk about them a lot. We, we discuss them and say, here's what may have happened, but remember, these movies, a lot of times come out way after.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, but the casting decisions are sliced and diced on social media when they are made.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Correct. But you can't necessarily anticipate how someone.

[Matt Bellany]

Acts on social media.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

For instance, do we want to anticipate that? Do we want those kinds of questions to be guiding the casting? I think that we are making decisions that we think are fresh and important, regardless of some of the negative things that we don't necessarily appreciate.

[Matt Bellany]

There's a lot of that online. I understand. And it gets to the question of in the casting process, has Disney retreated from willingness to go there? I mean, they've had this run a very inclusive casting of some of these star roles like Little Mermaid and Snow White. And I feel like the way that Disney has been messaging lately, they are pulling back from that.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I haven't experienced that personally. I feel like when we're in the casting process, we are looking for the best person for the role and each role is very different. It's not like you can just plug and play these performers. And you know, usually people in their 20s or early 20s especially aren't necessarily going to push the box office anyway. So even if they're a pop star, you don't know if that's gonna work or click. And so I think we're always trying to find. And you know, with Little Mermaid, it's so funny that there was such a reaction about, you know, how the character looked when at the end of the day, I think real Mermaid fans know that it's the voice, that's the thing that Ariel has that is taken by Ursula in the plotting.

[Matt Bellany]

Also, it's a mermaid.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

It's a mermaid. I know you Kind of can't anticipate, but we are thinking about what is the essence of this character. And I would say with the Little Mermaid, it's the voice.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Halle was a pop star and she had the voice.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

So you did work on the live action Moana, correct?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yes.

[Matt Bellany]

And with a property like Moana that obviously people have strong feelings about, and you want someone who has the background, the Polynesian background, and someone who can sing. How many self tapes do you look at when you are casting a wide net for someone like that? When you want an unknown, probably, and you know that everybody, every little girl around the world knows the lyrics to the Moana songs. How many self tapes do you. Do you guys screen?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I mean, that one is probably into the thousands, man.

[Matt Bellany]

How do you remember and, like, how do you catalog, like, what stands out? Like, it's kind of a fascinating process.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

The thing is, when you're watching a self tape, you feel it right away. Like, you feel it. You feel it even if you've seen thousands. Now, we work in teams, right? Like, Bernie and I are partners. So sometimes if I see one and I've been watching tapes for so long that I feel like my senses have been dulled or whatever, I'm going to send him all the ones I obviously thought were good, and he's going to send me the same. But I also, you know, if my associate says there's something about this one, I can't tell if it's right. Like, we're all watching that together, and it's a process.

[Matt Bellany]

So do you assign like, a number or a letter? Do you give like, 1 through 10 and then the tens move on?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I can't do that till later. I have to just. When the net is wide, if someone makes me feel something, I'm going to click it into the yes pile at the beginning. But there's. It's not like we're just deciding off of that. Right. We have a full creative process. So I'm going to put a green light to watch again or have a callback or do a zoom callback with or even just meet anyone that makes me feel there's something interesting about this person.

[Matt Bellany]

And are those people all cataloged? Does Disney have a database of everyone who's ever auditioned for one of the movies?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

In a way, because we use a casting platform to organize. You know, they send them through that, and then we can click them and. And people move into different folders constantly. Those folders can be pretty confusing to look at.

[Matt Bellany]

And you can dial it up. Polynesian female, 15 to 22. And then they all pop up.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I wish it was that easy, but no, but once they send us a self tape then we can have like. Obviously when we have an open digital thing, people who aren't appropriate for the role still submit themselves. And we can quickly see that they don't fit the bill, they're not right for the role of Moana. So we just put them into another like a no, you know, per casting or something.

[Matt Bellany]

Back to Wicked. So for Wicked, do you have a sense in your head going in about some of the out of box choices you are going to push for? Whether it's switching a gender of someone from the play or, you know, bringing this person. I would like to find a role for this person in this project. Do you bring that kind of perspective and how do you communicate that with the filmmaker?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

We definitely do. We have people that we love and as we read the script and we're really trying to get see, you know, what's the difference between the play and the movie and where are the differences? We might have those sorts of ideas. And I think the way we do it is we say, I'm gonna show you someone. We have auditions today for Glinda and Elphaba today. But I'm gonna bring a couple people in that I don't know if they're gonna be a fit there, but they're really interesting and they feel like they would be in the world of Oz. And so like, let's just take a look and see what we think.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, that's one of the evaluation factors that the academy is gonna mention to people in judging the casting Oscar is whether the look and feel of the period casting or the fantasy casting, those are all factors when you are putting together the movie is do these people look like they're of this world?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Oh, definitely. And one of the things we got to do in London was have this massive dance call. Cause we knew we'd need hundreds of dancers. And Christopher Scott and I talk in the beginning, you know, I'd say if someone just has a look or a way they move, that's just interesting. I'm going to create this character pile and I might read those people, like read them for small parts or force you to call them back and see if they could do a different style of dance where they might fit somewhere else in the movie. And he was fully, I mean, we've worked together a lot. I love working with him. He was so down. He was like, let's absolutely. And then I can, you know, Scan their resume in a more deep way than I can. When I'm initially setting up, you know, 70 dancers every two hours for a week, I sometimes have to just do volume, like, yes, say yes, get them in. But then after that, I might dig deep and go, oh, this person's actually, as well as being a great dancer, also is an actor. So let's bring them in when we do, you know, Shenzhen and Fanny, you know, those kinds of parts or whatever.

[Matt Bellany]

I asked this of Denise last year, and she had a good answer, and I thought I would pose it to you. Agents. A lot of agents listen to this show. What do they do that works? What do they do that you find super annoying? And how can a representative, an agent or a manager break through and say, I have a client who you do not know, but is perfect for Elphaba or whatever?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I love agents. Number one, because you don't.

[Matt Bellany]

The ones that just send you their entire client.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I love.

[Matt Bellany]

Here are my clients that I would like you to evaluate. Please let me know if you are interested in any of them.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

No, that's the biggest problem is what's starting to happen is a cut and paste. And I know the assistants are doing. And it's not the agent or AI.

[Matt Bellany]

They have their AI assistant. Just bombarding casting.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Right. Where it's like, this person is so perfect for blonde bartender. Any gender, any ethnicity. You're just like, oh, really? What stands out to you about them?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, tell me. Exactly.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Exactly. So we get a lot of that, which fills our inboxes to a point that are almost like we just have to delete it because we can't even find our real emails. But when someone has an actual pitch, you know, I did Tracker and we were looking, wanting to do CBS casting. Yeah. And someone wrote me and was like, do you know Abby McInerney? She's this Chicago improv person. But her first, you know, thing she did got, you know, she wrote a pilot that got produced and was in, you know, went to Sundance and became a show on Showtime. Now that's a pitch. And so I wanted to meet her immediately. And she, of course, got cast in the show. And so that, to me, is very exciting. It's just rarer and rarer.

[Matt Bellany]

And why is it rarer? Like, is it just because it's a volume business and people are so desperate to get any actor through the door that they're just gonna do whatever?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Peak television put us into a situation where there was so much opportunity for breakouts because there were so many shows being produced at Once that a lot of the established actors were. Were booked on shows and there was a spaghetti being thrown at the wall system that I wish we could leave behind along with, you know, forget about that. It worked. Then your non actors got small parts, your actors who are okay got guest stars. And now that's harder now. So please focus on your good actors.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, you've done a lot of television. You worked with Ryan Murphy a lot. He gets a lot of attention for his cast and some of the, not just stunt, but a lot of the interesting casting choices. Do you attribute that to his desire to be loud and attention grabbing? Is that a mandate? When he comes in and says, what are we going to do on this project to get attention for this cast?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I first of all have to say I love working with Ryan and I'm not.

[Matt Bellany]

You do have to say that. Yes, you do.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

No, I don't have to say it because I'm going to reframe what you just said and how it feels to me so that you can understand why I love working with him. He wants to be inspired. And if I send him a list and he's like, tiff, these are. I just am not inspired. That's the conversation. So then I really can. And sometimes you're working very fast, so you're sort of like, okay. And so I have to kind of try to get into his brain and think, who would he get excited about? And that's the fun part. And I think one of the reasons that like in the last two years of working with him, I've cast like four of my bucket list actors that I didn't know if I'd ever get to cast, like Leslie Manville and Katherine Hunter and Rebecca hall and Teyana Taylor. So it's something where it's like I'm trying to think what would get me excited if I saw a deadline article about this announcement. Like, me personally as a cast director makes me go. So I start there, obviously. And then sometimes Ryan is like, you know, he's really direct and I enjoy that. Where he'll say, not for me, or he gets excited or I would really.

[Matt Bellany]

Like to have Kim Kardashian as the center of my show. Can you make that happen?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Well, that's not casting. There's a difference. He created that show with Kim.

[Matt Bellany]

That's true. It's like, you know, going into Moana that you've got Dwayne Johnson and then you got to figure out everybody else, right?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Well, that's most things. Most things start with a green light that's what makes Wicked really fun is that we had a green light and we're given a very open casting process.

[Matt Bellany]

How accurate was the casting episode of the studio? Did you watch that?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I loved it. I did.

[Matt Bellany]

Casting the Kool Aid movie. First it's too black, then it's not black enough, then it's mixed race and then everything is racist.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yeah, I thought it hit some really fun things. Although I will say I don't think we had a casting director actually at those meetings. So I can't speak to like we have those kind of meetings. But I have a feeling that the final conversation is probably pretty accurate.

[Matt Bellany]

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I want to get back to this. The big franchise tentpoles. What gets you excited about casting one of these? Is it the discovery process?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

It is a creative process. So there's nothing that beats just actually being in the room with the director and producer and the actor and everyone collaborating and realizing you've got it right and that this person's life is going to change. Yeah, I can tell you someone I'm excited about, a young man named Nicholas Galitzine has auditioned for me and he.

[Matt Bellany]

Man, he's he man.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I know. And he was always fantastic, always made it to the end. And some, you know, and for whatever reason he doesn't get the part. But he's excellent. And when we did the idea of you, I would say that they, you know, they had a real short list of people they were interested in seeing and we were able to put him on the list. And they, they had done red, white and royal blue. So they were like, oh, actually we're okay with Nicholas. I mean, it's not you know, he's not on our short list.

[Matt Bellany]

But that's Amazon, correct?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yeah, Amazon. And then we just knew it would be. Should be him because he's perfect for that part and he is enormously talented. Terrific singer. Really terrific singer and wonderful actor and just a dreamboat. And so when I saw he got he man and like other things that are coming out, I was just thrilled when he got the idea View and. And people watched it because that's a big thing. Matthew. Sometimes you cast someone and then people don't watch the thing and so you're. You still experience that excitement, though, when they, you know, were cast.

[Greg Horbeck]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

And I imagine a lot of times you feel that way. Something blocks the process, whether it's the studio or the director not agreeing with you or, you know, the budget not being able to accommodate someone or scheduling, the dreaded scheduling conflicts.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Scheduling is usually number one, especially in.

[Matt Bellany]

The peak TV era. I mean, it was crazy, the stuff that people were doing, flying all over the world to do five shows a year, probably less of that now.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I always say they shoot every day, they want to shoot every day. I mean, that's why we're so excited too, about Jonathan Bailey, because that one was really blocked for a minute. Me and Duncan Millership. That's why I have to say I love the agents manager sometimes because we don't give up.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Was he a fight to get into.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Wicked just from a schedule? Because he was doing Fellow Travelers and Bridgerton Season three at the same time. Thank God, not season two. That would have been impossible. But I'm so happy for him right now because there was probably three months where he was making himself sick, working every day, flying all over and making it happen.

[Matt Bellany]

Best audition of all time.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I hate to say it, but I will say it on this one because it feels like I'm just being cheesy. But honestly, Ariana Grande for Wicked, because of where it started and where we went, was so incredible.

[Matt Bellany]

What does that mean?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Well, I think people know and talk about it. When she started, she came in very much in, you know, kind of the. The ponytail and the makeup and. And stuff that we expect from Ariana Grande, the pop star. And she came in with that and you could still feel the, you know, the humor and stuff, but it was not clear because it's distracting almost. Right. Like that Persona. And so we really kind of asked her, can you come back and drop all that and come in, you know, and she came in many times and then came read and came back. And so just that process and her commitment to the audition, her preparation and then also ours. Like what do we need to see next when she comes in? We need to try to work on this part or do we need to get new material? Like it's a real creative process where you're trying to see how the fit is.

[Matt Bellany]

Do you feel we've lost a little bit with all the self tapes or have we added because you can see more people now?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I think added it's so much more inclusive. You used to just be able to see like even for television especially like 10 people because of the limits of literally logistics, space and time. And now we can explore people. You might still do those 10 of the actors you know really well and you know that would be great. But you can also extend maybe 25 to people who agents are really passionately pitching or. Or someone who you're like, I'm not sure about that person. But let's just try and see. Because every audition that they do that you see, you're building your kind of book of actors you love and can't wait to cast.

[Matt Bellany]

Do you think Hollywood has a young star problem? Like why is the list of 15 to 30 year olds so small?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I feel like it's because fame is not a new idea. But there are so many ways now, so many different platforms in which to become famous that it is less focused.

[Matt Bellany]

So does that mean that the actors are not as good or that it's harder to find them? Or like what is it? I know the media world is fragmented and it's harder to get attention and build that profile that you need to be a quote unquote movie star. But you would think that the number of actors out there would be greater than ever because we have access to finding them.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

We do have great actors. Just because somebody doesn't work in one film doesn't make them. Remember back in the day like Elizabeth Taylor can be in movies you don't remember the name of, but you remember it's Elizabeth Taylor because she was in like if we go back right, aren't it the same people or they were making movies without stars that made stars. I think that's the biggest challenge right now.

[Matt Bellany]

It's hard to make it.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

They were. And a television used to be the world of star making and now it's. I think it really is trying to get eyes on something that is the hard part. And I think it causes a situation where to get a film greenlit. We're all chasing the same like 10 people now. We probably were always chasing those 10 people. But now the 10 people have so much more opportunities, whether in television, you know, shooting, going to Budapest for six months now, they're not available. You know, there's still a lot of content. So it's just more diffuse.

[Greg Horbeck]

Tiffany, is the actor's ability to market themselves a bigger factor now? Like back in the day, you could be like, edward Norton's a great actor. Let's put him in this movie. But now, is it like, Timothee Chalamet is a great actor, but Timothee Chalamet is also a fantastic marketer? Does that go into casting for a particular role?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I have to be honest, I feel like I'm jaded. And I think there are teams of marketing people behind those people we think are great marketers. I think that there's whole groups of people who run someone's social media. So are we looking at it? I don't know. I'm kind of jaded about that.

[Matt Bellany]

You don't think it's a factor like today? If you were doing across the Universe and they said Jim Sturges, the studio would 100% say, Jim Sturgis does not have a social media profile. They would definitely say that.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I guess so, yes. Well, then we were just told to find the best actor for the role. There was no discussion of a social. Social media follows fame. If someone's in a movie or a television series that becomes incredibly popular, they put together a social media team for them.

[Matt Bellany]

No, it's true. And you can be a star without it. You know, there's plenty. Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, they don't have social media.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I think fame is not a new idea. We just have a new way to quantify it that we focus on a lot. And I just always tell young act, you know, I think fame should be a slightly embarrassing byproduct of good work. So why don't we focus there?

[Matt Bellany]

So I want to talk a little bit about this casting Oscar, because one of the nice side effects of adding a category to the Oscars is it really raises the profile of that aspect of the business. And I feel like I've seen more casting directors around town doing events. They're part of the awards campaigns this year. Like, that's the ultimate. Like, it's not just about the. The award and getting a nice trophy. I think it really is ultimately about raising the profile of what it is you guys. Do you agree there?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Oh, absolutely. It. There is.

[Matt Bellany]

You're seeing the. The boost so far.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Definitely. And there's. There's a lot of misconceptions and you know, as a result of that, a lot of times there's like scams and things too. So as much as we can get information about the process out there, I think it helps everybody and it's, you know, we're the first step for an actor most of the time. So I think it's really helpful that we're discussing our process.

[Matt Bellany]

If you had to give out a casting Oscar to a movie from the past few years, which would it be? Nothing you've worked on.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Does it have to be the last few years? Because I would say Jaws.

[Matt Bellany]

Why?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Because I feel like even characters with one line, if you say the line, I still see those people.

[Matt Bellany]

Uh huh. Yeah. Great. A lot of craggly faces. We need to get back to the 70s. Everyone looked like they were 60 years old when they were 25.

[Greg Horbeck]

That's actually a great point, Matt.

[Matt Bellany]

That's like.

[Greg Horbeck]

Is it really hard to cast like a 60 year old man that looks like a 60 year old man now because they all look 40?

[Matt Bellany]

No, that's. I've heard the problem is, is that you can't cast any 40 year old men now because the 60 year olds now still look like they're 40.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yeah, I would say that it's harder in the 38 to 45 because everybody.

[Matt Bellany]

Has a smooth face and a facelift.

[Greg Horbeck]

Is it hard to cast period pieces now when everybody has so much work done?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

No, because there's people who don't have work done. There are people like. But it is a conversation, A big conversation.

[Matt Bellany]

Where are these people? They're not out to lunch in Beverly Hills, that's for sure.

[Greg Horbeck]

But is that a factor? Are you actually considering that this person's face does not look like it could exist in 1824 because of the work they've had done?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Definitely. That's a big conversation. That's a really, really big conversation.

[Matt Bellany]

Is that on the breakdowns? Must have natural face.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

I haven't put that. But I have had a character that was actually called Facelift Lady.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay. Which Ryan Murphy show was that?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

That was not. That was John Requa and Glenn Ficara.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

It was our first movie we did with them. I love you, Philip Morris.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, I love you, Philip Morris. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, this is all fascinating stuff. Tiffany, appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Of course. Thank you for having me.

[Matt Bellany]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, are you familiar with the concept of a favor movie?

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Sure.

[Greg Horbeck]

That would be a good episode. If we do the top 10 favors.

[Matt Bellany]

Of the 21st century, we should yes, I ask? Of course, because Ella McKay is coming out this weekend. This is a 30ish million dollar political dramedy from James L. Brooks, who happens to have created, co created the Simpsons for Disney. And this movie is being released by Disney and it qualifies as a favor movie. I don't know who made the call, but I'm envisioning Mr. Brooks calling Bob Iger at Disney and saying, listen, I've made you $10 billion with the Simpsons greenlight. My damn movies.

[Greg Horbeck]

Why now? Why does he get a favor now?

[Matt Bellany]

I think he probably just wrote it. It's not a coincidence, by the way, that there is another Simpsons movie coming to Disney. I had someone else call this a P and L movie where you're looking at the overall P and L of the division and you're like, okay, we're going to get a Simpsons movie. Green light. Ella McKay. Just do it. It happens a lot. I mean, this is, you know, big filmmakers use their leverage to get the dream project made by the studio they're in business with. Happens all the time. I think I just saw the Sundance lineup. There's a searchlight movie from a big Pixar guy who I'm sure leveraged that Disney relationship to get that more power to him. You know, you get your movies made however you can. But Jim Brooks, 85 years old, the days of broadcast news and as good as it gets. Probably over for this one. It's tracking to $4 million for this weekend on 2,500 screens. Not great.

[Greg Horbeck]

I love broadcast news. But yes, this movie is just totally anachronistic to right now. I mean, it's a political comedy drama with a great cast that is being released.

[Matt Bellany]

Like Emma Max, 500 theaters. I'm not familiar with her game.

[Greg Horbeck]

I think she's mostly known for that show Sex Education. I don't know if you watched that.

[Matt Bellany]

No, I did not.

[Greg Horbeck]

But there's a lot of people. Jamie Lee Curtis, Camille Nanjiani, Ayo Deborah. He's in this movie. Woody Harrelson.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Yeah.

[Greg Horbeck]

Hans Zimmer's doing the music.

[Matt Bellany]

Sure. There you go. It's just, you know, it's sad that this may be his last big studio movie and like someone who's had a great career, one of the all time great careers goes out with this kind of movie. But you know, it happens. Francis Ford Coppola went out with Megalopolis.

[Greg Horbeck]

Well, I don't think you should compare this to. We don't know.

[Justin Lopez]

I'm not.

[Matt Bellany]

That's a no. That's A whole different level. And nobody would distribute megalopolis. He showed it to all the studios, many of which he had made a lot of money for Coppola, and they all passed.

[Greg Horbeck]

There's a very realistic chance that this movie, even if it doesn't make a lot of money and at the box office, you know, is something that people throw on at home and enjoy.

[Matt Bellany]

Sure. You know what, you're being very nice. I'm a big simpsons fan. Jim Brooks is a hero for co creating that. But I probably will not be lining up this weekend. I'm going to take the under on $4,000,035,000,000 budget. I think it's a little lower than that, but yeah, doesn't matter. No one's going to see this movie.

[Greg Horbeck]

You're being very Harsh For Ellen McKay.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

For Ellen McKay.

[Matt Bellany]

You know, listen, you get the movie made with a favor. You got to take the. The lumps that come with that. If it doesn't perform, it's sad because.

[Greg Horbeck]

This is a movie that just doesn't exist anymore and should and it's from a completely different time and 20 years ago, people would have probably gone and seen this movie.

[Matt Bellany]

Totally agree. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest Tiffany little, Canfield producer Greg horbeck, artist Justin Lopez and I want to thank you. We will see you next week.

Limu emu and Doug.

[Justin Lopez]

Here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Justin Lopez]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Tiffany Little Canfield]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty. Liberty Savings ferry underwritten by Liberty mutual insurance company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

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