Nick Bernstein (4:12)

Hi. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on in this emergency podcast.

Danny Heifetz (4:16)

It is an emergency pod of sorts. I wanted to have an insider on who has worked at CBS and in the late night world because there is so much swirling in the media, the political world. Everybody seems to care about this Colbert situation. And we're going to get into the economics and the logistics of producing late night and how that has changed over the past decade or so. But I guess we'll just start with the question everybody is talking about. You know, all these people, you know, the landscape. Do you think CBS killed Colbert to appease Trump?

Nick Bernstein (4:57)

Well, I just have to probably start by saying I left in June of 2025. And Matt, it was a different time.

Danny Heifetz (5:04)

A month and a Half ago was a different time.

Nick Bernstein (5:06)

It was a totally different time. I can't really speak to that. I mean, the optics obviously don't look great. And you can see all the articles and all the people that are talking about it.

Danny Heifetz (5:15)

Matt, you're talking to people on both sides here. What do you think based on what you're hearing? Honestly, it is not 100% knowable, and I don't think we will ever know. Even if Donald Trump goes on television tomorrow and says, yeah, I told him to cancel Colbert and they did, I don't think we can believe that. I think that it is probably a little bit of both. The economic situation is very real. This is a challenge genre, and this is perhaps the most challenged of those shows, given what we've talked about. And I also think that the timing matched up here. Colbert's in the last year of his deal, they looked at this and they said, okay, what are we going to do here? It probably did not hurt that letting him go would appease Trump at a key moment. We know David Ellison has met with the FCC and this is on the verge of getting approved. So having it out now is not a bad thing for them. And they can still say that this was all an economic decision and be truthful about that. I know this is kind of wishy washy, but I think it's an element of both. I think it's primarily economic. With the politics cloud hovering over everything.

Nick Bernstein (6:29)

Here, it feels to me like this conversation is really about the economics of late night. And I say that because I just went through the economics of late night and how challenging it is, having worked on the 12:30 show on After Midnight, after I worked on Cordon.

Danny Heifetz (6:45)

All right, so let's do that. Let's talk about the economics and then we can get into the political swirl. Because I don't think most people, even in the business, most people, truly understand how much the economics of these shows has changed over the past few years. So get into that for us. I reported in my newsletter that Late show was costing over $100 million a year. They do 40 weeks of shows. They have 200 employees. Everybody makes a decent salary there. Not everybody, but a lot of them do. These are expensive shows. And the pressure has been on for years now, even before COVID to cut costs because the economics are just not working. The ads aren't there.

Nick Bernstein (7:28)

Well, I mean, the pressure's been on for decades. I've been through times at NBC where we had to cut 20% of a budget on shows like the Tonight Show. And Saturday Night Live and Conan and Fallon.

Danny Heifetz (7:41)

Seth Meyers lost his band last year.

Nick Bernstein (7:44)

Yeah, we're all in it. I mean, I just worked on a show. We went from show Corden, which was a relatively economical show, to After Midnight, which was about half of the budget of Corden. And even at that point, our hope was to break even.

Danny Heifetz (7:58)

So you just said basically Corden was replaced with a show that cost half as much as. And his was already cheap and.

Nick Bernstein (8:06)

Give or take.

Danny Heifetz (8:06)

Yeah. And they were losing money. Not a lot, but they were losing money.

Nick Bernstein (8:10)

And I mean, you think about all these shows, you can talk about $100 million in 40 weeks. You are talking about 150, 160 episodes of television. Yeah, $100 million. So yes, it's expensive. But also per episode, when we talk about other shows and everything else that's on that comes ON Once every two or three years, those are 10 to 20 million dollars an episode. So give or take, these were considered pretty economical shows.

Danny Heifetz (8:35)

Yeah, people were tweeting at me, but SNL, you think Late show is more expensive than SNL. And I'm like, SNL does 20 episodes a season. Colbert is doing 40 weeks.

Nick Bernstein (8:46)

And so if you've gone from losing half of the ad revenue in about an eight year span for all of Late Night, the show's budgets did not reduce by 50%.

Danny Heifetz (8:57)

No.

Nick Bernstein (8:58)

In eight years either. And so these shows do get expensive. All shows get expensive the longer that they're on. The rubber has to hit the road at some point. And unfortunately we're in this place right now.

Danny Heifetz (9:08)

And that's where some of the reporting matters. Because people are like, well, why now? Why was it canceled now? And CBS has been looking at this. I mean, you can confirm this. They've been looking at all these shows for a while now, Right?

Nick Bernstein (9:22)

Yeah. I mean, I should reiterate, like I worked on the west coast and so my shows were the west coast shows. I didn't work directly on the Late show with Stephen Colbert, but I'm certainly worked with Colbert on After Midnight. He was a producer on the show and EP on the show and Spartina in that group too. The thing that happens in any situation with a year left in a contract is this is about the time where people would be negotiating the next contract.

Danny Heifetz (9:48)

Yes. And my understanding is that the Colbert people were kind of wondering, oh, like are they going to come back to us? Are they going to, you know, make an offer? Like, we haven't heard from them. So that's why it started to happen now, because Going into this last year of his contract, you would typically do it now.

Nick Bernstein (10:10)

And the optics being what they are, it's understandable that a lot of people are asking the questions that they're asking. But the truth of the finances is if you're going to tell somebody this week that this is going to be the last year of their show, then this is also the time that they're going to want to tell their staff and the audience the. That this is the last year of the show. We did this on Cordon. It's the humane thing to do for people who've worked on a show for on the Cordon, and it was eight years on Corden, but it's gonna leak. It is very hard to keep these things quiet. And people are wondering. People's lively, people are wondering what they're going to do next. Also, it's a lot to handle. I mean, I've worked on quite a few shows now that have ended in these spaces. And there are people who started at 24 or 25, and when the show ends, they're in their 40s, and it's a really challenging time. So I certainly feel for all of them, and I hope that they're able to, once they absorb this information, enjoy this year.

Danny Heifetz (11:13)

Well, the interesting thing is, if this were purely politically motivated, why would they let Colbert sit in that chair for another 10 months?

Nick Bernstein (11:24)

Doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why would they let Adam Schiff say what he said last night after the first comment?

Danny Heifetz (11:30)

I mean, I guess you could make the argument that all they needed to do was telegraph to Trump that they are making moves on his behalf and that, you know, he has to sit out 10 months and then he will get his wishes. But there's a lot of damage that Stephen Colbert can do in 10 months. And from my understanding, CBS does not, other than normal standards and practices, does not tell him what to say on the actual show.

Nick Bernstein (11:55)

Just based on everything that I've been through with all of the shows. And obviously the Corden show didn't live in the political comedy landscape in quite the same way. But we were able to say whatever we wanted about whatever. Whatever we wanted.

Danny Heifetz (12:09)

Although at the time, the parent company wasn't being sold for $8 billion. I mean, that's the whole thing here. Everyone's like, oh, is Kimmel gonna get fired next? Disney is not going through this kind of sale process. I mean, I think if Kimmel gets fired, it's because the same thing is happening. And we'll talk about whether this is the dam breaking. But the economics of these shows are not as good. And the Colbert show had particular challenges because unlike Kimmel and Fallon, he is not the face of the network. They don't put him out there in the same way. He doesn't host other shows for cbs. And Kimmel pops up on the game shows, he pops up on Millionaire and other stuff. And Fallon is on the Macy's Parade. And he's kind of the mascot of NBC. He's in the theme parks.

Nick Bernstein (12:59)

The worth of these shows to any of the networks is do you see them both as a vehicle for stars, a vehicle for star makers? The only place you can see the George Clooneys and Julia Roberts and massive, massive stars on your network in any type of semi regular way. And also as an incubator for talent, period. Because across the board you have people on these shows who have had an opportunity and found a way to figure out how to make television on a daily basis in a quick turnaround way. And you can trust them to make the next things. The hosts as well, when they have ideas have sold left and right and you have to find the ways. And I'm not even talking about digital either, which as you know, is where most of these shows are going to really make their waves.

Danny Heifetz (13:48)

Well, but that was another weakness for Late Show. It has little less than 10 million subscribers on YouTube. Kimmel has 20 million, Fallon has 32 million. So right there it's a smaller business than these other shows, certainly the 1230.

Nick Bernstein (14:05)

Shows, which is where Fallon started. And that's when they, they were the first ones who really, really found their way on YouTube. Colvair also, you have to factor in no show got DVR'd more than Colvair also. So there's some place where people are finding these shows and watching them. The question of how do we then aggregate all of those people and viewers and make sure that we can sell advertisers that advertisements that are gonna make as much money as it costs to do those shows. That has just become a bigger and more difficult conversation.

Danny Heifetz (14:34)

Yeah, I mean, we now know consumers are spending more time each day streaming TV than watching broadcast and cable TV combined. And that's the question here is the traditional late night format, a relic of the linear era, where it will now slowly and painfully, one by one, go away. Or is it going to transfer over to streaming in some way that we don't know yet? I just looked at the numbers for John Mulaney's Netflix show. They were really bad. And we love Mulaney friend of the town. But he was getting 500,000 views for every episode of Everybody's Live, so. And now Mulaney did not do a mainstream show, but would a mainstream Colbert style show even rate on a streamer?

Nick Bernstein (15:25)

Well, I think it is going to happen. I mean, I, I remain optimistic about the late night format. Maybe a little less optimistic than I was a couple months ago.

Danny Heifetz (15:36)

Oh, really? Why?

Nick Bernstein (15:38)

Because I'm no longer working on one at 12:30 and the, and, and the Colbert conversation. But it's the thing about. Actually, let me, let me go back to Mulaney for one second. You can talk about the Mulaney ratings. And I only saw it based on your reporting. And when I see like half a million viewers or what that show is getting per episode, that's what you would get on cable. That's what you might get on after midnight on a regular week. It's in that same space. So once again, the cost of it, I don't know if that's going to be justified. But that show plays more like a 12:30 or cable show. If a Stephen Colbert style show existed in a space, in a streaming space, I do think that it could garner the same level of viewership as you can. I do think so.

Danny Heifetz (16:26)

I just don't know. I don't know. And I'd love to see Netflix give Colbert a call and try it.

Nick Bernstein (16:31)

Well, the one thing that they haven't done yet is also they haven't done day and date shows yet, meaning the shows normally, Gordon, after midnight, Colbert, all of them usually will record at 4 o'. Clock. We'll edit here and there for an hour or so and then that show airs. That hasn't happened on any of the streamers in a day and date way yet. Melania is live. I think that's because I assume they have to be live. It's the only way they can do the shows.

Danny Heifetz (16:58)

Well, they also are, you know, it's a whole Netflix ad pitch where they're selling these shows as live and most people don't watch them live, but they do say, I mean, Kimmel used to be live. When it started, it's called Jimmy Kimmel Live, and now it's not.

Nick Bernstein (17:10)

They had about a week and then they learned. We all learn eventually, I think that there is something fun and ubiquitous about these shows and the ability to do something interesting and different with major stars and major talent. There's a space for Olivia Rodrigo to do fun things with Kimmel that she doesn't really do in any other way. And I think there's value there. Same thing with like when Seth Meyers and Rihanna went day drinking. Like I've never. There's nowhere else I can see something like that. And so when you think of that as a concept, I don't know why that wouldn't also be relevant and play in a streaming universe.

Danny Heifetz (17:44)

And it's weird because there's the premature or the perception of prestige because it airs on Television at 12:30 in a franchise called Late Night that we know even though 90% of the people are going to watch it on YouTube. Would Seth be able to get Olivia Rodrigo to go day drinking with him if he Was just a YouTube show?

Nick Bernstein (18:13)

Well, I guess if you ask the fine folks at Hot Ones.

Danny Heifetz (18:16)

Yeah. Or Chicken Shop Date.

Nick Bernstein (18:18)

Yeah.

Danny Heifetz (18:18)

Yeah. It's true.

Nick Bernstein (18:20)

There's something great about the space and the imprimatur and the largesse of it, but I don't think that it's the only way to do it.

Danny Heifetz (18:28)

Yeah. We're just talking about these guys having YouTube channels, which is essentially for most young people, who they are and what they do. They're famous guys who have YouTube channels that do funny stunts and that's where we're headed. But they also make $20 million a year. And that is the problem. One of the problems with the economics of the format is that the money was set in another era. And these guys make a lot of money and no shame to them. They should. They're great talents and they do a great job job. But like the fact that CBS didn't even go to Colbert and say cut costs. They knew that him taking a salary cut or firing some people or making pretty significant changes, that wasn't going to be enough.

Nick Bernstein (19:16)

There's a certain point for all of these shows. If you ask them to reduce as much money as you can, there's only so much you can take out of even the hosts salary in order to still maintain the way that we tried to do it on Cordon is find ways to do integrations into comedy bits. Can we work with advertisers, the Starbucks and the McDonald's of the world to find ways to do comedy with big people that still uses their brands without feeling gross to anyone?

Danny Heifetz (19:44)

Yeah. And I think that Corden and Fallon have a little easier time with those integrations because they are not politicized. Colbert is a left wing show and that's part of the reason why he was successful. When he finally embraced that, he went to number one and that has been his lane. But it's also a little bit polarizing for brands.

Nick Bernstein (20:06)

I'm sure that there are agencies that have said that and would argue that. But like I look back at what he did on the Colbert Report, which once again was as political as, as Colbert was. And he did, I think Doritos in there. And so like there's, there's room for them if they can figure out what it is. It is hard and you're balancing the comedy with the need to make money. And I think more people are more willing to do that now than at any point.

Ben Mankiewicz (20:37)

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of January 1, 2025. Terms and more@applecard.com this episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Vuori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably gonna see me wearing some Vuori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to Vuoria.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Vuori. V U O-R-I.com Simmons enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

Danny Heifetz (22:08)

I want to float a conspiracy theory and get your take on it. So George Cheeks, the head of cbs, he's the co CEO at Paramount. He is planning to go over to the new regime when Skydance takes it over. Right. So George is I think trying to impress the new guys that are coming in and I think the timing of this is partly George Cheeks telegraphing to David Ellison and the new Skydance people that he's unemotional about this stuff. He will make the tough cuts he will cancel a sacred cow like the Late show if it makes financial sense. And also in the process, he is taking the heat off of David Ellison, who was probably going to cancel Colbert when he comes in because they have all sorts of cuts planned. And now Ellison doesn't have to do that because George Cheeks has already done it. And that's a reason for doing this. Now, what do you think about that?

Nick Bernstein (23:10)

I don't honestly think I can speak to that at all.

Danny Heifetz (23:13)

Oh, because you know I'm right.

Nick Bernstein (23:15)

I know. I, I don't know anything about David Ellison or Jeff style. I've never talked to any of those guys. I know George is doing everything he can to keep CBS afloat, period.

Danny Heifetz (23:29)

Yes.

Nick Bernstein (23:30)

And I don't really know anything else about the machinations of the decisions that went into this week.

Danny Heifetz (23:36)

That is a very diplomatic answer.

Nick Bernstein (23:39)

And this is when I wonder when Lucas Shaw is joining it so you can ask him the harder question.

Danny Heifetz (23:45)

All right, so I will take that as a, A no comment. But you do know that CBS has been debating this a long time and I want to make that clear because so much is out there right now and we don't know, like, we have no idea if there is some secret blood pact between the Trump administration and Paramount and Skydance, where certain things have to happen in order for this to be approved. Ellison has met with Brendan Carr, the FCC chair. All signs are that this merger is going to be approved in the next week to month and maybe this is part of it. I'm not saying. I know, but what I am saying is that the economics of late night have been pointing in this direction for a long time. And you know that as well as anyone.

Nick Bernstein (24:34)

Yeah, I do. I mean, I, I lived through a time where NBC gave Jay Leno A 10 o' clock show and we were overseeing that and wondering whether that's the end of how primetime works, period. And then everything that happened after that was the question of what, what is late night now and what does this mean?

Danny Heifetz (24:55)

So let's go through a scenario here. Who's the last man standing in late night?

Nick Bernstein (25:00)

It's probably Lorne Michaels, Right?

Danny Heifetz (25:02)

Well, Lorne Michaels is going to live to 150, but got to assume Seth Meyers is sweating right now. He's the only 1230 guy left. You see Colbert canceled, you see the economics and you see that one of the reasons Seth has been protected is because of Lauren. I just don't know how long Seth can be protected anymore. So do you agree he might be first to go next?

Nick Bernstein (25:26)

I Don't like to prognosticate that way. The way I think about it is every network is going to treat their shows differently. A lot of it is based on, once again, how they value the shows and whether they consider them incubators and want to continue to put that talent in various places. So that could be Seth hosting things outside of Late Night. That could be whatever conversation might be happening about the future of Saturday Night Live, which you've asked him.

Danny Heifetz (25:57)

I have alluded to, yes.

Nick Bernstein (25:59)

It's the same thing about Kimmel. When you. You hear him talk in interviews, and sometimes he talks about wanting to retire, and sometimes he talks about wanting to continue. I hope he continues for a very long time.

Danny Heifetz (26:09)

I think Disney will let Kimmel go out on his own terms. He is valuable to that company in many ways. He has relationships with all the people at Disney, and maybe they cut his salary, maybe they cut costs. They already let him take the summers off. I think that show will continue. Fallon is the same way. I actually think Fallon will be the last man standing in Late Night because he and Myers are signed through 2028, by the way, Kimmel is in the final year of his deal. So maybe Kimmel will re up, maybe he won't. But I think Fallon will be the last man, in part because he does other stuff and in part because the Tonight show is a brand and it is sold as packages with a bunch of other products that NBC sells that I just don't see them getting rid of that. They may gut it, but I don't see them getting rid of that. What about Jon Stewart?

Nick Bernstein (27:06)

Let me just talk about the broadcast for a second.

Danny Heifetz (27:08)

Sure.

Nick Bernstein (27:09)

There is value in these shows in a way that is not your favorite. I know, but the place where you can go so that NBC viewers can know what else is on NBC.

Danny Heifetz (27:22)

Yeah, synergy, the Comcast Symphony. I know, but that's getting less valuable. That's part of the problem. That's part of the reason why people like digital shows instead of TV is because it's just fluff and promotion.

Nick Bernstein (27:34)

I hear what you're saying, but I think that there is value there. And when you like the people that are on your network, when you're a viewer and you like watching these shows as like, CBS does a really good job about this, too. They figured out what people like in primetime and we use those people in comedy segments regularly on certainly we did on After Midnight and we did on Cordon and they do on Colbert. Like, you still have to figure out ways to get these shows out. There and promote them.

Danny Heifetz (27:59)

Great for Byron Allen, man, that guy, you know, he had the 12:30 now slot that they're giving him on CBS. I guarantee you he has made a call already trying to get 11:30 on CBS.

Nick Bernstein (28:12)

I cannot comment, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

Danny Heifetz (28:17)

So my understanding is that the Daily show is not a profit center either on Comedy Central. And it's a little bit of different model because you have to have a certain amount of original programming on cable networks to justify your carriage fees. But are we going to see the Daily show go away? Because they're another Paramount network, Comedy Central. And if the Daily show gets canceled in a week, I mean, it's going to smell even worse that this is all to appease Trump.

Nick Bernstein (28:47)

Once again, it's a little hard for me to talk about something like the Daily Show. I never worked on it and that was out of my purview. I certainly hope they continue to make shows and the way that they've been able to figure out how to integrate John Stewart and also keep all of their correspondence in host capacity has been pretty incredible. It's once again probably outside of snl, like the best incubator of talent out there. And so it certainly deserves a life and deserves to continue on.

Danny Heifetz (29:15)

Do you think Colbert is going to go scorched to earth for the next 10 months, like poking, poking, poking as much as he can?

Nick Bernstein (29:23)

I would assume he doesn't want to do something different than what he's been doing as long as he gets to keep making the show that he wants to. That means he's going to talk about whatever's on top of his mind with the very smart people who help him write and craft that show.

Danny Heifetz (29:37)

Where do you think he'll go next? Do you think he's done? Or do you think he'll try to pitch a half, you know, a half hour weekly show, try to get the John Oliver style show going? By the way, John Oliver does well on HBO Max. So it's not like these shows can't do well on streaming, but that is a very particular type of show. He doesn't have celebrity guests. It's not as topical. Ripped from today's headlines. Do you think Colbert will try to refashion himself into something like that or do a sketch show or something?

Nick Bernstein (30:06)

As a fan of Stephen, I'm just hopeful that we get to see him in some way, in the same way that I'm really grateful that I get to listen and watch Conan still, even years after he was finished on television and the type of renaissance he's experienced over this last year has been incredibly fulfilling.

Danny Heifetz (30:25)

They'll all have podcasts.

Nick Bernstein (30:27)

Well, yeah, Watch. Watch your back, Matt.

Danny Heifetz (30:29)

I know. No, I'm not worried. But, you know, this is where this is all going. We've talked about it before. The podcasts have largely replaced late night as the place for a host. You enjoy some celebrity guests and banter. Maybe you learned something like that's kind of where people look now.

Nick Bernstein (30:47)

Well, I like to think of it as the DNA of late night is imbued in a lot of different places. And so in the same way as prime the Insult Comic Dog at the Star wars line would have been a massive, massive viral hit in 2001, if YouTube existed, then all of these places have learned from the greats and late night and found a way to do their version of it. And it was so hard to get into that club, and now it's. There's different ways in.

Danny Heifetz (31:10)

Yeah, they just got to find a way to pay for it. And that's the tough spot because I do think that the economic model is broken in television. And unless they could find a way to pay for the TV shows via the digital revenue, which has not happened yet, they are going to slowly, one by one, go, go away.

Nick Bernstein (31:29)

Well, it's the ease of starting something and owning it in a podcast space or on a YouTube channel and being able to quickly maximize value out of merchandise and elsewhere is a lot easier when you are a streamlined, fast car. And when you are part of a giant machine and a huge company, it takes a little longer to figure out where that is. And I hope it's not too late for the broadcast networks of the world to continue to figure this out. But time will tell.

Danny Heifetz (32:01)

All right, thank you very much, Nick. Appreciate you coming on.

Nick Bernstein (32:04)

No, happy to do it.

Danny Heifetz (32:07)

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, gun to your head. Literally, gun loaded to your head. Which would you rather see this weekend? The Smurfs musical or I Know what yout Did Last Summer reboot? Are they all musicals or is this the first Smurfs musical? Don't know. Cannot offer insight on that question. I will take smurfs because it's 92 minutes. Really? Yeah, I think I would probably take Smurfs as well. Even though I tried to listen to that Rihanna song that they're promoting. It's not good, but, yeah, at least it has that in it. I do not need to see young, hot people getting murdered. Was a fan of Jennifer Love Hewitt back in the day. I actually represented her as a lawyer, long story, but not interested in either. And I don't think the public is either. These movies have come down in the tracking over the past week or two. Both are around 14 million. Smurfs is a little lower than that. We are taping this on Friday. So I have a little bit of inside info, info based on the Thursday night screenings. And I'm going to take the under on both. Well, the first one, I know he did last summer, big success, over 100 million. Then they made a second one. I still know what you did last summer. She made 85. Oh, they were a thing back in the day. You were too young, but they were definitely a thing. I'm also not a slasher film guy, but they're bringing the. I mean, a lot of the cast is back and then they're injecting some young people like Madeline Klein and Chase Sui Wonders from the studio in it. So from a casting perspective, I don't think it's a terrible job. Yeah, but it just feels so desperate and so cynical. And both of these studios, Sony and Paramount, they just need something that can feel theatrical. So they're grasping at these very tired franchises. So you know what, you reap what you sow. And I don't think either one is going to be a hit, but there it is. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Nick Bernstein, producer Craig Horlebeck, artist Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.