Commercial Vs. Arthouse, Going Marvel, and Notes From Spielberg With ‘Hamnet’ Director Chloé Zhao

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: Commercial Vs. Arthouse, Going Marvel, and Notes From Spielberg With ‘Hamnet’ Director Chloé Zhao
Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Matthew Belloni
Guest: Chloé Zhao

---

Overview

This lively episode features a candid and wide-ranging conversation between Matthew Belloni and Oscar-winning director Chloé Zhao (“Nomadland,” “The Rider,” “Eternals,” “Hamnet”). Recorded at Puck’s Stories of the Season awards event, they discuss Zhao’s distinctive visual style, her creative process, themes of personal and cultural healing, the influence of Steven Spielberg, and her navigation between commercial and arthouse filmmaking—including her foray into Marvel and future plans in anime adaptation. The episode offers insights for cinephiles curious about the artistic and commercial tug-of-war in contemporary filmmaking.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Establishing Chloé Zhao’s Filmmaking Style

Timestamps: 01:56 – 03:47

• Influences: Zhao credits her distinctive style largely to early practical limitations—no budget for sets or effects, so she embraced natural locations, available light, and authentic people.
  • “Limitations was the first influence because... we did have the natural world, which is free, and we did have the sunset and it's free.” — Chloé Zhao (02:24)
• Beyond necessity, a deep cultural connection to Mongolian landscapes and longing for wide-open spaces influenced her visual signatures.
  • "Whenever I hear Mongolian music, I start crying. So I always yearn for the plains and horses... I had the same yearning living in New York for the American plains." — Chloé Zhao (03:19)

---

2. The Origin and Depth of ‘Hamnet’

Timestamps: 03:47 – 07:40

• Zhao initially rejected the “Hamnet” project due to its emotional demands, notably confronting her “mother wound”—a term she uses to describe pain rooted in her relationship with maternal figures, and the wider collective repression of the feminine.
  • “...to tell this story, I'm going to have to look at my own mother wound. And that's painful. That's probably the most primal wound that you can have.” — Chloé Zhao (06:17)
• She describes her journey through an intense personal underworld post-“Nomadland” and “Eternals,” leading to acceptance of the project as a form of self-therapy and discovery.
  • “I was ready to excavate that part of myself and bring it out… when the right project says, like, you're chosen… then the amount of synchronicity that were happening...” — Chloé Zhao (06:50)
• Zhao shares that both she and her lead actress Jesse Buckley felt a personal resonance with the film’s themes, seeing it as mutually therapeutic.

---

3. Working with Steven Spielberg

Timestamps: 07:40 – 08:51

• Spielberg’s Input: As a producer, Spielberg offered specific, story-driven notes—suggesting the addition of a key father-son scene, and urging Zhao to speed up some film sequences.
  • “When he read our first draft ... he said, I think you are missing a scene between father and son. And that turned out to be the one... when he picks up Hamnet and said, will you be brave?” — Chloé Zhao (08:16)
  • “In the edit, he would say, I just promise you... it's too slow. You got to speed this part up.” — Chloé Zhao (08:39)
• Zhao respected Spielberg’s advice, acknowledging his audience-savvy instincts.

---

4. Changing Endings and Feminine Storytelling

Timestamps: 09:01 – 12:02

• Changing the Ending: Zhao openly discusses rewriting “Hamnet’s” ending just four days before wrapping production.
  • “I never went into making a film knowing how it's going to end. I knew the endings on the page reads pretty good, get it greenlit, but it's not going to work.” — Chloé Zhao (09:38)
• Creative Process: She distinguishes between “masculine” (linear) and “feminine” (spiral/discover-as-you-go) storytelling energies, identifying herself with the latter.
  • "It has nothing to do with gender, just energy... the masculine energy is very linear ... and then the feminine energy is like the black hole. It's a spiral, and it spirals down... You just have to trust.” — Chloé Zhao (10:04)

---

5. Balancing Artistry and Commercial Considerations

Timestamps: 12:02 – 13:45

• Zhao is highly conscious of audience expectations and marketplace realities, always asking: has this story/image/approach been done before, and why should people choose her film among many?
  • “People's time is precious. If they open this festival catalog and there are hundreds of films, why, why should they see my [film]?” — Chloé Zhao (12:22)
• She sees the strength of “Hamnet” in both its literary IP (Shakespeare and Maggie O’Farrell’s acclaimed book) and its universal themes, despite its non-commercial trappings.

---

6. Marvel, Manga, and the Art/Commerce Divide

Timestamps: 15:27 – 22:25

• Approaching Marvel: Zhao proactively pursued “Eternals.” She was initially up for “Black Widow,” but fell in love with “Eternals” for its mythological, allegorical depth.
  • "It was the content. And also I love allegorical storytelling. I love mythology... So it was amazing to be able to play in that world.” — Chloé Zhao (15:57)
• She admits the commercial stakes didn’t scare her, but that she’d return to Marvel or big IP if “the right story chooses me.”
• Anime Adaptation: Zhao is passionate about serving as a bridge in adapting Japanese manga/anime for global audiences, emphasizing the need for cultural sensitivity and authenticity over profit.
  • “To be able to be a bridge between the Japanese authors and the international filmmakers... There has been traditionally some difficulties in adapting Japanese manga anime into live action. There's a lot of loss in translation.” — Chloé Zhao (19:48)
  • “It's about creating a garden away from the storms of the industry...” — Chloé Zhao (20:33)
• She approaches adaptation as a form of matchmaking—ensuring intent and humanity are preserved before subjecting projects to Hollywood’s pressures.

---

7. Memorable Quotes, Humor & Vulnerability

Timestamps: 01:48, 01:56, 19:36, 21:49, 22:41–24:09

• The episode kicks off with playful banter:
  • “I have heard that you're a bit spicy.” — Chloé Zhao (01:48)
  • “You can say jerk. It’s okay.” — Matthew Belloni (01:53)
• Zhao drops the show’s only F-bomb:
  • “This is fucking great.” — Chloé Zhao (19:36)
• Belloni cracks:
  • “I think that’s a very nice way of saying Hollywood would fuck it up.” — Matthew Belloni (21:49)
• Zhao’s empathy and philosophical depth shine when discussing the Covid-era Oscars:
  • “As a young girl, I was very lonely. So I wrote fan fiction and put them on the Internet... it feels like I'm connected to someone... the more we can't touch each other, the more we can feel the energy of the yearning to be with each other...” — Chloé Zhao (23:17)

---

8. Industry Reflections: Commercial Animation & the China Box Office

Timestamps: 24:21 – 29:33
Note: This segment primarily features Belloni and producer Craig Horlebach’s film business analysis rather than Zhao.

• On Animated Sequels: Discussion on why Disney and Pixar take longer between sequels compared to Illumination (Despicable Me), the role of artistry vs. efficiency, and the possible impact of AI on animation pipelines.
• China’s Changing Market: Zootopia’s unique appeal in China, and how shifting market dynamics alter prospects for even established global hits.

---

Notable & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• “Whenever I hear Mongolian music, I start crying...” — Chloé Zhao (03:19)
• “I was thrown into the underworld... and meet all your shadows.” — Chloé Zhao (04:05)
• “But I knew if we don't deal with [the mother wound], it's going to come. It's going to get you anyways at some point.” — Chloé Zhao (06:17)
• “Spielberg... said, I think you are missing a scene between father and son.” — Chloé Zhao (08:16)
• “I never went into making a film knowing how it's going to end... it’s part of this holding the tension between knowing and not knowing.” — Chloé Zhao (09:38)
• “To be able to be a bridge between the Japanese authors and the international filmmakers... it's always been a dream.” — Chloé Zhao (19:48)
• “Hollywood would fuck it up.” — Matthew Belloni (21:49), with a philosophical comeback from Zhao on the “beauty and brutality” of nature and industry.
• “As a young girl, I was very lonely. So I wrote fan fiction... because it feels like I'm connected to someone. So even though in the room, we can't touch each other... the more we can't touch each other, the more we can feel the energy of the yearning to be with each other.” — Chloé Zhao (23:17)

---

Tone & Atmosphere

• Warm & Candid: The conversation is direct, humorous, and reflective, with a sense of mutual respect and playful banter.
• Philosophical & Vulnerable: Zhao blends deep creative and personal introspection with practical commentary on navigating the business side of filmmaking.
• Industry Savvy: Belloni maintains an insider’s perspective, probing both art and commerce.

---

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Establishing visual style/influences: 01:56 – 03:47
• Personal journey and Hamnet’s themes: 03:47 – 07:40
• Working with Spielberg: 07:40 – 08:51
• Changing the ending/Feminine energy: 09:01 – 12:02
• Artistry vs. commerce: 12:02 – 13:45
• Marvel experience and manga adaptation future: 15:27 – 22:25
• Covid Oscars emotions & final reflections: 22:41 – 24:09
• Animation industry talk (shift to business analysis): 24:21 – 29:33

---

Conclusion

Chloé Zhao’s visit to “The Town” illuminates the complexity of balancing artistic integrity and mass appeal. Her stories—ranging from shooting under the open sky out of necessity, embracing myth in Marvel films, to cultivating cross-cultural harmony in anime adaptation—demonstrate an artist driven by personal discovery, empathy, and respect for audiences. The episode’s candid, at times spicy, tone makes for a meaningful exploration of filmmaking’s artistry and industry.

---

Transcript

[Matt Bellany]

This episode of the Town is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting Frankenstein, a film by Academy Award winning director and writer Guillermo Del Toro. A retelling of the classic novel about what it means to be human, to crave love and seek understanding. Starring Oscar Isaac, Jacob Elordi, Mia Goth and Christoph Waltz. The New York Times raves Frankenstein is stunning. The movie Guillermo del Toro was born to make. Now playing on Netflix. For your awards consideration.

[AMC Announcer]

Amc, the home of award winning drama and unforgettable originals, brings you more in 2026.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Prepare to have your mind blown with.

[AMC Announcer]

A new season of the critically acclaimed Dark Wings. You cannot separate spirituality from upholding the law. All new Anne Rice's the Vampire Lestat. I'm a rock star now.

[Chloe Zhao]

I am everywhere.

[AMC Announcer]

Plus the Audacity, a bold new series from a producer of succession and Better Call Saul with Zach Galifianakis and Billy Magnussen. Coming in 2026 only to AMC.

[Matt Bellany]

It is Friday, November 28th. If you don't know Chloe Zhao, she's the Oscar winning writer director of Nomadland. She also made the writer Eternal. She's working on a Buffy reboot. And she also made Hamnet, about William Shakespeare and his family and the tragedy that led him to write Hamlet. It's very good. One of the front runners in this year's Oscar race. We recorded this conversation at Puck's Stories of the Season awards event earlier this month. It was very fun. We talked about her unique style, how she casts her movies, the dance parties she has on set. She called me spicy at one point. It's a fun chat. So today it's Chloe Zhao from the Ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. Okay, this is going to be fun. I have heard you are fun. You do very serious interviews and you make very serious movies. But I have heard that you are fun.

[Chloe Zhao]

I have heard that you're a bit spicy.

[Matt Bellany]

You can say jerk. It's okay.

[Chloe Zhao]

Spicy is great.

[Matt Bellany]

Spicy is okay. Yes. Well, thank you for doing this. Thank you for coming. The film is excellent and I just wanted to start with getting a sense of some of your influences because you have a very distinct visual style in your filmmaking. And you know when you are watching one of your movies, if it's on TV and you're in the room, you can kind of tell. So where did you develop that, that. That sort of emotional and kind of contemplative style?

[Chloe Zhao]

I think when I first started making films, I had not very little. So I would say limitations was the first influence because we Just didn't have money to build or, you know, or even just to create my own vision because we had nothing. But we did have the natural world, which is free, and we did have the sunset and it's free. And we also had people who. Whose depth, you know, is not completely free, but. But those are the only things I could rely on and to survive on as a filmmaker. So it was out of necessity.

[Matt Bellany]

So you're drawn to these kind of Western style landscapes out of necessity. There's nothing inside of you that said I relate to that or I feel a connection to that.

[Chloe Zhao]

I think all the Northern Chinese have some Mongolian blood in us. You know, there's a lot of exchanging. And I just know growing up, whenever I hear Mongolian music, I start crying. And so I always yearn for the planes and horses and living in Beijing, yearning for that. So I had the same yearning living in New York for the American planes.

[Matt Bellany]

Interesting. So what is it about this movie, Hamnet, that chose you?

[Chloe Zhao]

Well, I had a midlife crisis.

[Matt Bellany]

I did too. I bought a golf cart.

[Chloe Zhao]

There you go.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, yours is a little different than mine.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, I did some other stuff, but I won't share here.

[Matt Bellany]

Feel free.

[Chloe Zhao]

Feel free later. So after Nomad and Eternals, it was a very intense, well, really intense 10 years when I made those four films. And then 40 is about a time, you know, if you're lucky, it starts. And I had four years of. You know, if you look at my earlier film, it's about chasing as many horizons as possible. I feel like a pioneer. Just wanted to capture all the treasures, you know. My, my, my. I like this. I like this, like this. This is exciting. And then. But I was running. I was running from myself. I was afraid to stay still. And after those four years, I was really like, I was thrown into the underworld, which is another way for individuation is to go into the underworld and meet all your shadows. The part of you that you're most afraid, you hid since you're a little kid. You're afraid that you're shamed, but also your greatest desire and yearning that you have now looked at and swim in that deluge for four years. And then slowly climb myself up and doing that process is when Hamnet came to me. And one of the. I think one of the most difficult shadow that we have, we could have is the wound around the mother. I think not only many of us know what I'm talking about, but also collectively as a species, I think we have a collective mother wound. Just because the feminine consciousness has been repressed for thousands of years. So in my earlier films, the mother character, the kind of strength that come from this, almost like strength as strong as the ocean, that kind of loving mother, unconditionally witnessing. Mother figure doesn't exist. Mother figure pretty much doesn't exist in my films until Hamnet. And I initially said no to Hamnet because.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, I read that. And why was that? Just because you didn't feel it was right?

[Chloe Zhao]

I was scared, you know, because to tell this story, I'm going to have to look at my own mother wound. And that's painful. That's probably the most primal wound that you can have. But I knew if we don't deal with that, it's going to come. It's going to get you anyways at some point. And so I was ready. After four years, I thought, you know, might as well go all in, because this is a whole lot of mother here.

[Matt Bellany]

Did you feel this movie was a sense of therapy for yourself?

[Chloe Zhao]

It was, I think, all the films most of us create, because if we don't, we're not going to make it. So it is coming from that place. And this one, what I mean by it chooses me because I was ready to excavate that part of myself and bring it out and flesh out the wound and do all that necessary healing. But also when the right project saying, like, you're chosen, you're the one, then the amount of synchronicity that were happening, and Jesse was very much Jesse Buckley on a similar path as me, you know, and Paul came in a way, and just they started having so many little gifts and helpers. And then you go, ah, okay, this is me. I gotta do this.

[Matt Bellany]

Steven Spielberg is a producer on this project. Amblin had optioned the book. Did you have conversations like this with him in advance? What was his input or what was his role in this? Personally?

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, I do have this kind of. Not. Not often, but he is very. He knows that we're very different, Very different kinds of filmmakers. And he and Sam, you know, Mendes, they were great at giving me advice, knowing who I am and what kind of filmmaker I am.

[Matt Bellany]

So can you share a piece of advice that Spielberg gave you?

[Chloe Zhao]

Sure. For example, when he. I will not go into details if you have not seen the film, but when he read our first draft and he said, I think you are missing a scene between father and son. And that turned out to be the one, maybe you got a glimpse of it when he picks up Hamnet and said, will you be brave? Things like that.

[Matt Bellany]

That's good advice.

[Chloe Zhao]

Also in the edit, he would say, I just promise you, I know you love those things. It's too slow. You got to speed this part up.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, please.

[Chloe Zhao]

Oh, no.

[Matt Bellany]

He knows how to get an audience.

[Chloe Zhao]

I think he's. Yeah, I listened.

[Matt Bellany]

No. And no spoilers, because I know a lot of people haven't seen the film yet.

[Chloe Zhao]

I think you can spoil this film.

[Matt Bellany]

But no, no spoilers.

[Chloe Zhao]

No, I don't think you can.

[Matt Bellany]

No, you can't. But I don't want to say. But. But you had said on a. On a panel that I went to when I saw the film that you completely changed the ending of this film. And without saying what you did. But why? Why did you do that? And is that something you often do? I would be terrified to just change the ending of a script that everybody had kind of agreed this is what we're shooting.

[Chloe Zhao]

I realized in this press tour I might have reviewed too much. So the next time when I try to get a script greenlit, the studio is going to be like, so we heard from the podcast.

[Matt Bellany]

It's only November. This is going to be going for.

[Chloe Zhao]

We know this ending doesn't work. So what's your real plan? I never went into making a film knowing how it's going to end. I knew the endings on the page reads pretty good, get it greenlit, but it's not going to work.

[Matt Bellany]

You just decided that.

[Chloe Zhao]

I think most filmmakers read the script and go, how are you going to do that? Because, you know, and it is part of this holding the tension between knowing and not knowing. And also, I think I'm, you know, if you want to use masculine, feminine terms. And I think I'm a quite feminine storyteller in the sense of. It has nothing to do with gender, just energy. The linear. The masculine energy is very linear. It's about getting from here to here. And it's like a beam of light. Powerful, unstoppable. And then the feminine energy is like the black hole. It's a spiral, and it spirals down. And so the thing is, when you're on a spiral, you do not really quite know when the end is going to happen. It's going to stop when the momentum stops. So you just have to trust. And lucky for us, in Hamnet, this was a close call. It was four days before we wrapped production. We were in the Globe Theater and.

[Matt Bellany]

We shot the ending, which you had rebuilt. You built your own Globe Theater?

[Chloe Zhao]

Yes, part of it. And then cg, because we couldn't afford the whole thing. And so on that day, there were two people on that set, knew that we had no film. And it was me and Jessie Buckley. If your actor is really present, they would know. I remember her looking at me going, this is the ending that I went through all of this. This is it. I was like, yeah, it was great with a high pitched voice. So we avoided each other that. That day, all day.

[Matt Bellany]

That's funny.

[Chloe Zhao]

And we both, without giving it away, we both had a really intense catharsis because the tension we were holding and. And then because what we went through, the ending emerged.

[Matt Bellany]

Interesting. You mentioned the Spielberg note about speeding it up. When you're making films, do you have a sense of what might be commercial, what might be popular? And does that factor into what you're doing?

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, it does, in my opinion.

[Matt Bellany]

I prefer this, but the audience will want that.

[Chloe Zhao]

It might not always be show up that way. But I do think about it a lot because I was the producers on my earlier films and I always think about even just going to a festival. I never take it for granted that someone would just want to watch your film. People's time is precious. If they open this festival catalog and there are hundreds of films, why, why should they see my. And so I think about I has this been done before? Have these images been shown before? Has this story been told this way before? And then even just one image you put on the screen to represent your film, are there enough paradox or contradiction in there that you go, this is interesting? I think about this all the time in terms of Hamnet. If you read the logline of the story, it's not the most commercial story. But then I thought, yeah, but the IP is strong, though. Maggie o' Farrell's book is incredible. And it's Shakespeare.

[Matt Bellany]

Shakespeare is pretty strong, ip. Yes. So I figured you squint a little, you think it's Hamlet.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, and then I make many traces along the way to think, how can we enhance? How can we make us more relevant? You have to think about these things because you can't take it for granted.

[Matt Bellany]

This episode is brought to you by Starz is Outlander Blood of My Blood, an epic tale of love, legacy and longing. Starring Hermione Corfield, Jeremy Irvine, Harriet Slater and Jamie Roy. Variety Rave's Blood of My Blood is lush, complex, beautifully shot and structured. And Los Angeles Times proclaims it's the ultimate period drama. Industry voters can access all [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Wayfair's Black Friday sale is the perfect time to score huge deals on all things home, no matter what your style. Starting October 31, you can shop Wayfair's can't miss Black Friday deals all month long. Plus you can sit back and relax with Wayfair's fast and easy shipping just in time for the holidays. I am loving my new stuff from Wayfair. I got a couch and cover for the outdoors so it doesn't get rained on. We've got some rugs for the indoor family room. Next up, my kid's room. He needs a new bed. Wayfair's the place. Going to get a kid bed for my nine year old. We're going to get him probably some new shelves, maybe a rug, tie the whole room together. Everything's at Wayfair. Wayfair is the go to destination for everything home, no matter your style or budget. They make it easy with fast and free shipping even on the big stuff. They'll even help you set it up. Don't miss out on early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W A Y F A I R.com sale ends December 7th. Do you follow industry stuff? Do you follow industry news? Are you aware or do you like sort of float blissfully above all that?

[Chloe Zhao]

I wish I could lie and said I watch yours religiously, but I don't.

[Matt Bellany]

Do not. It's okay. I will not be offended.

[Chloe Zhao]

No, not so much. Medium rare.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes, but you do pay attention. I mean I asked because obviously you did a Marvel film, which is the sort of pinnacle of commercial filmmaking and they've worked with a number of quote unquote indie filmmakers. But what drew you to a Marvel project and vice versa? Like, what was that call like?

[Chloe Zhao]

So for those 10 years when I was going around America and learning new ways of lives and having a relationship with nature, I never did. There was something bubbling inside really intensely. And volcano reference again erupted and that was in the form of eternals, because eternals at its heart is a story about a pantheon of gods having discussions about the nature of humanity and whether if we are worth surviving and so we are worth it. And it was my way of trying to process all the questions I was having in those 10 years of making the first three films. So it was the content. And also I love allegorical storytelling. I love mythology, mythology building story. I grew up with manga and anime, so I was really, it was amazing to be able to play in that world.

[Matt Bellany]

And so they called you and you said, I'm interested.

[Chloe Zhao]

No, I called them.

[Matt Bellany]

You called them and said, this property.

[Chloe Zhao]

In particular, it might be a mutual calling.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, that's fine.

[Chloe Zhao]

But I went in at first for Black Widow, and then there was a scheduling conflict. And then when Nate Moore, my producer for Eternals, showed me the treatment of this, I go, oh, wow. I get to have all these immortals, like a Greek play to discuss humanity. And then I get to create monsters and space gods.

[Matt Bellany]

Right. Dinosaurs. Yeah. Did it scare you a little that the stakes would be so much higher for something this commercial driven?

[Chloe Zhao]

It probably should have scared me. I don't know. I don't. I don't. I tend to jump before I know how to.

[Matt Bellany]

So you do another Marvel movie?

[Chloe Zhao]

I would, yeah. Yeah. With the right story. Last year, if it chooses me.

[Matt Bellany]

If it chooses you? Yeah. Last year, I asked Denis Villeneuve if he would do Star Wars. So I guess, is there any other IP out there that you'd like to do besides Buffy? We know you're doing a Buffy TV pilot. How's that going, by the way?

[Chloe Zhao]

Great. We shot it already.

[Matt Bellany]

It's done.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

So you're happy with it?

[Chloe Zhao]

I'm happy with it.

[Matt Bellany]

Are you going to work on it going forward or just the pilot?

[Chloe Zhao]

Well, my company is part of the producing team, so I will be involved as a producer, but now as a director.

[Matt Bellany]

Very cool. Is there any other IP out there that you look at and you're like, I could do something with that.

[Chloe Zhao]

What are you doing?

[Matt Bellany]

You can just drop some. This is how this. Listen, drop the hint here. You'll get a call tomorrow.

[Chloe Zhao]

I know. Well, I'm waiting. I'm. I'm listening. But I am very excited about the idea of. If you're talking about IPs. Manga.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. So let's talk about that, because you just did a deal with the. The. Is it Kadansh.

[Chloe Zhao]

Kadansha.

[Matt Bellany]

Kodansha Studios, which is a big anime company. You mentioned that you grew up on that. You're interested in that? What do you plan to do with this?

[Chloe Zhao]

What?

[Matt Bellany]

I just did an episode of this last week. You can listen to that if. If I did. Oh, you did listen to that.

[Chloe Zhao]

On my way here. I'm going to. But after this, I'm going to listen to his show.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay. Yeah. And now I'm thinking, what did I say? Did I say anything offensive?

[Chloe Zhao]

You should tell me, like, the most spicy episode. I'll listen to that one.

[Matt Bellany]

There's some spicy ones. I'll give you. I'll give you some episodes. Yeah, the ones that have the little E next to them. Explicit language. Yeah, those are the ones.

[Chloe Zhao]

Oh, I like. Can we make this? Can we make this?

[Matt Bellany]

Well, you could. You could drop some F bombs if you want. We're not. We're all adults here.

[Chloe Zhao]

This is fucking great.

[Matt Bellany]

There we go. We're getting the E. Well, tell Craig we're getting the E. So tell me about what you plan to do in the anime universe.

[Chloe Zhao]

Well, I have always. My whole life, it's always been a dream to be able to create and foster more connection and understanding between the east and the West. That's very meaningful to me. And to be able to be a bridge between the Japanese authors and the international filmmakers. Because there has been traditionally some difficulties in adapting Japanese manga anime into live action. There's a lot of loss in translation.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, I actually asked this on the show. I said, why aren't these movies being made by American studios? If the market is clearly there, they're relying on bringing over these movies already made, like make them here.

[Chloe Zhao]

That question is as is, as if you're asking why is the east and west harmonized perfectly? I mean, that is the timeless question. And we just have to case by case. You know, it's like being a matchmaker, making sure we understand what the sensei's true intention. And you know, when they're in their little studios and drawing manga and is survival for these authors, it's sometimes the only way for them to connect with the world. And so we need to understand where the humanity in that. And then we match that up with the international filmmakers who understand where that come from, where the story come from. And then it's like casting 80% time is about finding the right match. And then it's about creating a garden away from the storms of the industry to allow them to communicate and for the seedlings to have some roots and some strength before we go into the studios and before the rest. You know, both the beauty and the brutality comes in.

[Matt Bellany]

I think that's a very nice way of saying Hollywood would fuck it up.

[Chloe Zhao]

No, no, no. Well, you know, it's again the paradox, right? The brightest, the most beautiful trees is next to the lava field. There's extremity. The weather is extreme out here and it is beautiful. It's the natural world, nature. Don't romanticize nature. It's extremely brutal. And so we just wanted to make sure when it's already delicate, you're talking about trying to have two very different perspectives coming Together we wanted to give it a bit of a greenhouse before it come out into the world.

[Matt Bellany]

That makes sense. Before we wrap up, I gotta ask you. So on the 1 to 10 batshit crazy scale, tell me where the 2021 Covid Oscars ranks. You were the big winner that night.

[Chloe Zhao]

Medium rare.

[Matt Bellany]

It was the train station Oscars. I've heard some stories about that night. And what was it like from your perspective?

[Chloe Zhao]

It's like that volcano field. You know, there are moments that are just. I will never forget. But there's also a moment that I will never forget.

[Matt Bellany]

I mean, here you are, the pinnacle of your career. You're winning best Picture. And yet there are protocols. You're not allowed to touch anyone. You're not allowed to be within four steps of them. And you brought the Nomads with you to the show. And it's got to just be this surreal experience.

[Chloe Zhao]

I would say on a more serious note, the need for connection. And this is why I do this. As a young girl, I was very lonely. So I wrote fan fiction and put them on the Internet. And so I can read the comments because it feels like I'm connected to someone. So even though in the room, we can't touch each other. We can't. But the more we can't touch each other, the more we can feel the energy of the yearning to be with each other. Here goes the paradox again. So we are in a business and it can be cynical sometimes. We could joke about it, but this work is sacred. This work has been there since the beginning to help us survive more than ever. So I'm grateful for the work you all do. You as well.

[Matt Bellany]

I appreciate that. Thank you. And we are out of time. I just wanted to thank Chloe for doing this. Thank you to everyone for being here. We are back with the call sheet. Craig, have you seen Zootopia, the original?

[Craig Horlebach]

I have. Really like it.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, you've seen it? See, I would have thought that would. Would have come out in like a kind of dead zone for you in animated movies. 2016.

[Craig Horlebach]

I know. So that was like almost 10 years ago. Yeah, I was basically 21 years old. I don't know why I saw it.

[Matt Bellany]

You and the college bros just like set out for some Zootopia action.

[Craig Horlebach]

I think I saw it at home with my family or something like that and I ended up really liking it.

[Matt Bellany]

I think it.

[Craig Horlebach]

It kind of feels like an old school animated movie where there's actually a decent amount of adult humor in it as well.

[Matt Bellany]

Totally. It's good. It's One of my favorite of the Disney animation side.

[Craig Horlebach]

It's very smart.

[Matt Bellany]

Disney empire. Yeah, Bateman's great. So Zootopia 2 is looking like it's going to be huge this weekend. The tracking on this is 130 according to NRG. Some have it a little lower than that. That is obviously a huge step up from the original which opened to 75. That one was different because it opened during March. I believe this is 130 or 125 for the five day. But I gotta take the over on this one, right?

[Craig Horlebach]

Yeah, I think so.

[Matt Bellany]

First of all, a little accountability corner from last week. We hit on Wicked. We had the over on 125 for Wicked and we hit that by like 25 million. So way over last weekend. And I think that's gonna keep going this weekend.

[Craig Horlebach]

I do too. Reviews are great. It seems like people think the sequel's just as good as the original.

[Matt Bellany]

And I don't think they'll cancel. I mean last year we had Moana 2 and the first wicked on the same weekend. And both did great. It was a record weekend, so record Thanksgiving. So I think that this will be a repeat of that. I'm not sure it's going to get to those heights because Zootopia is not Moana. But Zootopia is pretty good and the reviews have been good so far.

[Craig Horlebach]

Also, there's just a lot of pent up interest for children's movies. I mean you talk about it all the time. How long has it been since there's been a good children's movie in theaters?

[Matt Bellany]

It's crazy. I mean Wicked kind of counts. But this is the first full on all audience animated tent pole since I think since Bad Guys 2 in like August. It's amazing.

[Craig Horlebach]

Yeah. So that that build up has to pay off in some way.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. The big question for this one, the first Zootopia got to a billion and it did almost 200 million in China. Chinese people love Zootopia. I don't know what it is about it, but they have a theme land in the park there in Shanghai now.

[Craig Horlebach]

So Zootopia 2 is opening in China too, right?

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, it is, yes. But the question is, you know, the China box office is not what it was in 2016. So what's it going to be in China? And if it doesn't do 100, 150 in China, can it get to a billion? I don't know.

[Craig Horlebach]

Why is the Chinese box office not what it was? Is that a Covid thing?

[Matt Bellany]

It's just the entire Chinese market is not as welcoming to outside movies. They have their own industry now. And they're right.

[Craig Horlebach]

I know that, like their own movies are starting to overtake American movies. But isn't Zootopia separate from that because it's a beloved franchise?

[Matt Bellany]

Maybe, maybe it is. I mean, Fast and Furious did okay there. Some movies do okay there. Avatar will probably do great there. But will it do 200 million great? I don't know. I think the way it, the way that it's been described to me is Zootopia is a story of like a small town rabbit going to the big city. And that appealed to a lot of Chinese people that live in these second and third tier cities in China and kind of have dreams of going to the big city. And it really appealed in the multiplexes that have really been built out in these areas of China. So if it does that again, then I think Disney's in great situation. But if it doesn't, we'll see. And can they make it up elsewhere? I think it can get to a billion. If it does 300 million this weekend in an opening weekend. It can, but it's going to be close.

[Craig Horlebach]

Question for you. A lot of the Pixar movies, I know Zootopia is not Pixar, but a lot of Pixar movies. A lot of animated films in general take a long time between the first and the second one. I mean, it's 10 years between the zootopias. I think it was like 14 years between the Incredible or maybe even more than that, between the Incredibles 1 and 2. But then you look at like Illumination films like Despicable Me. It's like two, three years between the sequels. Is that just the difficulty of the animation? Is it waiting for the right story? Is AI going to speed up the amount of sequels that can come out? Like, why do you think some studios take so much longer than others? Is that just a creative thing or is that just. It takes a long time to animate.

[Matt Bellany]

Disney would tell you that Illumination just poops them out as fast as they they can. And they're not of the same quality, they're not of the same ambition. They don't have the same type of artistry associated with it. I think if we had Chris Melodandri from Illumination in here, he'd probably say that's BS and they all sit around and compliment each other and have their committee meetings and their development hell and all of the stuff that doesn't really matter. And he does it just more efficiently. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know that it often takes a lot longer for Disney movies to get made than it does the Illumination movies. And maybe AI will solve that. I mean, I think it's kind of got to if the box office expectations for these movies are coming down, then the costs necessarily have to come down. And that's a lot of the cost. Is the process also, I think the.

[Craig Horlebach]

Bet that or the argument that, oh, we take our time and make good movies. It's like when you look at Illumination now, Minions and Despicable Me makes a ton of money. Super Mario's the second one's coming out soon. That's going to make a ton of money. The argument of, like, the longer you wait, the better the return is not necessarily working anymore.

[Matt Bellany]

No. I mean, we can get into a quality discussion, but certainly from a financial perspective, Illumination has the model that seems to work the best. But if you look at the franchises, I would say that Disney has the best animated franchises still, other than Minions, they've got, you know, a million of them. That and some that they've created in the last 20 years. So we'll see. It'd be fun to put them up against each other. All right, that's the show today. I want to thank my guest Chloe Zhao and everyone who came out to the Puck Awards season event. I want to thank producer Craig Horlebach, our editor Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. Happy Thanksgiving. We'll see you next week.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create, and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn [e-mail] M365 copilot.