Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: Commercial Vs. Arthouse, Going Marvel, and Notes From Spielberg With ‘Hamnet’ Director Chloé Zhao
Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Matthew Belloni
Guest: Chloé Zhao

Overview

This lively episode features a candid and wide-ranging conversation between Matthew Belloni and Oscar-winning director Chloé Zhao (“Nomadland,” “The Rider,” “Eternals,” “Hamnet”). Recorded at Puck’s Stories of the Season awards event, they discuss Zhao’s distinctive visual style, her creative process, themes of personal and cultural healing, the influence of Steven Spielberg, and her navigation between commercial and arthouse filmmaking—including her foray into Marvel and future plans in anime adaptation. The episode offers insights for cinephiles curious about the artistic and commercial tug-of-war in contemporary filmmaking.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Establishing Chloé Zhao’s Filmmaking Style

Timestamps: 01:56 – 03:47

• Influences: Zhao credits her distinctive style largely to early practical limitations—no budget for sets or effects, so she embraced natural locations, available light, and authentic people.
  • “Limitations was the first influence because... we did have the natural world, which is free, and we did have the sunset and it's free.” — Chloé Zhao (02:24)
• Beyond necessity, a deep cultural connection to Mongolian landscapes and longing for wide-open spaces influenced her visual signatures.
  • "Whenever I hear Mongolian music, I start crying. So I always yearn for the plains and horses... I had the same yearning living in New York for the American plains." — Chloé Zhao (03:19)

2. The Origin and Depth of ‘Hamnet’

Timestamps: 03:47 – 07:40

• Zhao initially rejected the “Hamnet” project due to its emotional demands, notably confronting her “mother wound”—a term she uses to describe pain rooted in her relationship with maternal figures, and the wider collective repression of the feminine.
  • “...to tell this story, I'm going to have to look at my own mother wound. And that's painful. That's probably the most primal wound that you can have.” — Chloé Zhao (06:17)
• She describes her journey through an intense personal underworld post-“Nomadland” and “Eternals,” leading to acceptance of the project as a form of self-therapy and discovery.
  • “I was ready to excavate that part of myself and bring it out… when the right project says, like, you're chosen… then the amount of synchronicity that were happening...” — Chloé Zhao (06:50)
• Zhao shares that both she and her lead actress Jesse Buckley felt a personal resonance with the film’s themes, seeing it as mutually therapeutic.

3. Working with Steven Spielberg

Timestamps: 07:40 – 08:51

• Spielberg’s Input: As a producer, Spielberg offered specific, story-driven notes—suggesting the addition of a key father-son scene, and urging Zhao to speed up some film sequences.
  • “When he read our first draft ... he said, I think you are missing a scene between father and son. And that turned out to be the one... when he picks up Hamnet and said, will you be brave?” — Chloé Zhao (08:16)
  • “In the edit, he would say, I just promise you... it's too slow. You got to speed this part up.” — Chloé Zhao (08:39)
• Zhao respected Spielberg’s advice, acknowledging his audience-savvy instincts.

4. Changing Endings and Feminine Storytelling

Timestamps: 09:01 – 12:02

• Changing the Ending: Zhao openly discusses rewriting “Hamnet’s” ending just four days before wrapping production.
  • “I never went into making a film knowing how it's going to end. I knew the endings on the page reads pretty good, get it greenlit, but it's not going to work.” — Chloé Zhao (09:38)
• Creative Process: She distinguishes between “masculine” (linear) and “feminine” (spiral/discover-as-you-go) storytelling energies, identifying herself with the latter.
  • "It has nothing to do with gender, just energy... the masculine energy is very linear ... and then the feminine energy is like the black hole. It's a spiral, and it spirals down... You just have to trust.” — Chloé Zhao (10:04)

5. Balancing Artistry and Commercial Considerations

Timestamps: 12:02 – 13:45

• Zhao is highly conscious of audience expectations and marketplace realities, always asking: has this story/image/approach been done before, and why should people choose her film among many?
  • “People's time is precious. If they open this festival catalog and there are hundreds of films, why, why should they see my [film]?” — Chloé Zhao (12:22)
• She sees the strength of “Hamnet” in both its literary IP (Shakespeare and Maggie O’Farrell’s acclaimed book) and its universal themes, despite its non-commercial trappings.

6. Marvel, Manga, and the Art/Commerce Divide

Timestamps: 15:27 – 22:25

• Approaching Marvel: Zhao proactively pursued “Eternals.” She was initially up for “Black Widow,” but fell in love with “Eternals” for its mythological, allegorical depth.
  • "It was the content. And also I love allegorical storytelling. I love mythology... So it was amazing to be able to play in that world.” — Chloé Zhao (15:57)
• She admits the commercial stakes didn’t scare her, but that she’d return to Marvel or big IP if “the right story chooses me.”
• Anime Adaptation: Zhao is passionate about serving as a bridge in adapting Japanese manga/anime for global audiences, emphasizing the need for cultural sensitivity and authenticity over profit.
  • “To be able to be a bridge between the Japanese authors and the international filmmakers... There has been traditionally some difficulties in adapting Japanese manga anime into live action. There's a lot of loss in translation.” — Chloé Zhao (19:48)
  • “It's about creating a garden away from the storms of the industry...” — Chloé Zhao (20:33)
• She approaches adaptation as a form of matchmaking—ensuring intent and humanity are preserved before subjecting projects to Hollywood’s pressures.

7. Memorable Quotes, Humor & Vulnerability

Timestamps: 01:48, 01:56, 19:36, 21:49, 22:41–24:09

• The episode kicks off with playful banter:
  • “I have heard that you're a bit spicy.” — Chloé Zhao (01:48)
  • “You can say jerk. It’s okay.” — Matthew Belloni (01:53)
• Zhao drops the show’s only F-bomb:
  • “This is fucking great.” — Chloé Zhao (19:36)
• Belloni cracks:
  • “I think that’s a very nice way of saying Hollywood would fuck it up.” — Matthew Belloni (21:49)
• Zhao’s empathy and philosophical depth shine when discussing the Covid-era Oscars:
  • “As a young girl, I was very lonely. So I wrote fan fiction and put them on the Internet... it feels like I'm connected to someone... the more we can't touch each other, the more we can feel the energy of the yearning to be with each other...” — Chloé Zhao (23:17)

8. Industry Reflections: Commercial Animation & the China Box Office

Timestamps: 24:21 – 29:33
Note: This segment primarily features Belloni and producer Craig Horlebach’s film business analysis rather than Zhao.

• On Animated Sequels: Discussion on why Disney and Pixar take longer between sequels compared to Illumination (Despicable Me), the role of artistry vs. efficiency, and the possible impact of AI on animation pipelines.
• China’s Changing Market: Zootopia’s unique appeal in China, and how shifting market dynamics alter prospects for even established global hits.

Notable & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• “Whenever I hear Mongolian music, I start crying...” — Chloé Zhao (03:19)
• “I was thrown into the underworld... and meet all your shadows.” — Chloé Zhao (04:05)
• “But I knew if we don't deal with [the mother wound], it's going to come. It's going to get you anyways at some point.” — Chloé Zhao (06:17)
• “Spielberg... said, I think you are missing a scene between father and son.” — Chloé Zhao (08:16)
• “I never went into making a film knowing how it's going to end... it’s part of this holding the tension between knowing and not knowing.” — Chloé Zhao (09:38)
• “To be able to be a bridge between the Japanese authors and the international filmmakers... it's always been a dream.” — Chloé Zhao (19:48)
• “Hollywood would fuck it up.” — Matthew Belloni (21:49), with a philosophical comeback from Zhao on the “beauty and brutality” of nature and industry.
• “As a young girl, I was very lonely. So I wrote fan fiction... because it feels like I'm connected to someone. So even though in the room, we can't touch each other... the more we can't touch each other, the more we can feel the energy of the yearning to be with each other.” — Chloé Zhao (23:17)

Tone & Atmosphere

• Warm & Candid: The conversation is direct, humorous, and reflective, with a sense of mutual respect and playful banter.
• Philosophical & Vulnerable: Zhao blends deep creative and personal introspection with practical commentary on navigating the business side of filmmaking.
• Industry Savvy: Belloni maintains an insider’s perspective, probing both art and commerce.

Timestamps of Key Segments

• Establishing visual style/influences: 01:56 – 03:47
• Personal journey and Hamnet’s themes: 03:47 – 07:40
• Working with Spielberg: 07:40 – 08:51
• Changing the ending/Feminine energy: 09:01 – 12:02
• Artistry vs. commerce: 12:02 – 13:45
• Marvel experience and manga adaptation future: 15:27 – 22:25
• Covid Oscars emotions & final reflections: 22:41 – 24:09
• Animation industry talk (shift to business analysis): 24:21 – 29:33

Conclusion

Chloé Zhao’s visit to “The Town” illuminates the complexity of balancing artistic integrity and mass appeal. Her stories—ranging from shooting under the open sky out of necessity, embracing myth in Marvel films, to cultivating cross-cultural harmony in anime adaptation—demonstrate an artist driven by personal discovery, empathy, and respect for audiences. The episode’s candid, at times spicy, tone makes for a meaningful exploration of filmmaking’s artistry and industry.