‘Fantastic Four’ Pressure, Marvel’s Next Steps, and Kevin Feige’s Future

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni Episode: 'Fantastic Four’ Pressure, Marvel’s Next Steps, and Kevin Feige’s Future
Release Date: July 23, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of "The Town with Matthew Belloni," host Matt Belloni delves deep into the current state of Marvel Studios, the pivotal release of the new "Fantastic Four" movie, and the future trajectory under the stewardship of Kevin Feige. Joined by Ben Fritz, an entertainment industry reporter from The Wall Street Journal, and co-host Craig Horlebeck, the conversation explores the challenges Marvel faces in maintaining its dominance in the superhero genre amidst changing audience dynamics and industry pressures.

---

Fantastic Four Premiere and Its Significance

The episode kicks off with Matt Belloni recounting his experience attending the "Fantastic Four" premiere. Notably, producer Jesse accompanied him, marking a shift as Craig is now reportedly barred from superhero premieres due to his openly critical stance.

Matt Belloni [01:25]: "I thought the movie was fine. I'll leave it to the real critics to give their reviews. It's at 80 something on Rotten Tomatoes. Pretty good. Fans will definitely like it."

Belloni observes that "Fantastic Four" stands out as Marvel's first true standalone film post-pandemic and during what he terms the "post-Hollywood correction." Unlike previous Marvel films, it doesn't rely on the interconnected Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU), featuring no Avengers or recurring characters from the broader franchise.

---

Marvel's Current State: Post-Pandemic and Content Strategy

Ben Fritz provides an analysis of Marvel's current challenges, emphasizing a decline from its golden era in the late 2000s and 2010s.

Ben Fritz [05:14]: "In the 2010s, Marvel could do no wrong... they have fallen dramatically in the 2000s."

Fritz attributes Marvel's slump to three main factors:

1. Oversaturation of Content: An excessive number of TV shows and movies leading to audience fatigue.
2. Declining Quality Control: As the volume of content increased, maintaining high standards became challenging.
3. Post-Endgame Momentum: Following the climactic success of "Endgame" in 2019, sustaining the same level of excitement proved difficult.

Belloni highlights the stark contrast between Marvel's MCU pre-2019 and the current landscape:

Matt Belloni [06:17]: "From the start of the MCU in 2008 through Endgame in 2019, they made 50 hours of content... After Endgame... they've made 102 hours of entertainment."

Disney's strategic pullback involves producing fewer, more standalone films and disconnected TV shows, reducing the need for audiences to keep up with an expansive narrative.

---

Kevin Feige’s Role and Current Positioning

Kevin Feige, Marvel's president, is at the center of these strategic shifts. His recent media appearances indicate an acknowledgment of "superhero fatigue" and a commitment to recalibrating Marvel's content output.

Feige [07:59]: "Audiences have felt that, yes... I think audiences would say, I couldn't keep track of it, so I checked out."

Feige's approach involves producing higher-quality, standalone films that do not mandate prior MCU knowledge, aiming to refresh the franchise and reinvigorate fan interest. The success of this strategy heavily relies on the performance of "Fantastic Four" and upcoming Avengers movies.

---

Comparison with DC and Future Outlook

The conversation shifts to a comparative analysis of Marvel and DC. Ben Fritz posits that DC, under the direction of figures like James Gunn and Saffron, currently holds more fan excitement compared to Marvel's tepid reception.

Ben Fritz [24:16]: "If Feige can do a really good job with them, I think it'll breathe new life into the MCU."

However, Belloni remains skeptical about Marvel's ability to bounce back swiftly, given the mixed reception of recent projects and the high expectations set by Marvel's previous successes.

Matt Belloni [25:19]: "I think if I had to pick one of them, I'd pick Marvel. I just feel like one quasi hit does not a franchise engine make."

The potential introduction of the X-Men marks a significant wildcard for Marvel, offering a chance to integrate beloved characters into the MCU and possibly rejuvenate the franchise.

---

Casting Challenges and Star Power

Craig Horlebeck raises concerns about Marvel's casting strategies moving forward, especially in the absence of major stars like Robert Downey Jr., Chris Evans, and Chris Hemsworth.

Craig Horlebeck [19:51]: "Yes, and the fact that from everything I've heard on Avengers, Doomsday, the second lead is Hemsworth."

The debate centers on whether Marvel should invest in new, emerging talent or continue leveraging established stars to draw audiences, especially as fan enthusiasm appears to wane.

---

Kevin Feige’s Future and Succession

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Kevin Feige's future within Marvel and the broader industry.

Matt Belloni [27:17]: "What does that mean? Does he want more than Marvel?"

Fritz highlights the lack of a clear succession plan within Marvel Studios, noting that Feige has not delegated much of his creative control, making Marvel potentially vulnerable should Feige depart.

Ben Fritz [28:09]: "There's never been clear internal succession."

The possibility of industry talent swaps, such as Feige moving to DC or bringing in directors like James Gunn, is humorously speculated but underscores the uncertainty surrounding Marvel's long-term leadership and creative direction.

---

Fan Engagement and Market Reception

The hosts discuss the varying levels of fan excitement and market reception towards current Marvel and DC projects. While some fans remain loyal, others exhibit fatigue, reflecting a broader shift in how superhero narratives are consumed and valued.

Craig Horlebeck [33:44]: "This movie will not work."

Personal anecdotes from the hosts illustrate the division within fan communities, with some expressing disinterest in upcoming releases and others holding onto hope for Marvel's resurgence.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a cautious outlook on Marvel's future. While the release of "Fantastic Four" is seen as a pivotal moment that could signal a turnaround, the overarching challenges of content saturation, quality control, and leadership succession loom large. Ben Fritz and Matt Belloni underscore the high stakes involved, emphasizing that Marvel's ability to adapt and innovate will determine its place in the evolving landscape of superhero cinema.

Ben Fritz [18:32]: "They need people to be excited about Marvel again. That's what they need most of all."

As Marvel navigates these turbulent times, the industry's attention remains fixed on Kevin Feige and his strategic decisions that will shape the future of one of Hollywood's most dominant franchises.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Fritz [05:14]: "In the 2010s, Marvel could do no wrong."
• Matt Belloni [06:17]: "From the start of the MCU in 2008 through Endgame in 2019, they made 50 hours of content..."
• Ben Fritz [24:16]: "If Feige can do a really good job with them, I think it'll breathe new life into the MCU."
• Craig Horlebeck [19:51]: "Yes, and the fact that from everything I've heard on Avengers, Doomsday, the second lead is Hemsworth."
• Ben Fritz [28:09]: "There's never been clear internal succession."
• Craig Horlebeck [33:44]: "This movie will not work."

---

This comprehensive overview captures the essence of the episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the current dynamics within Marvel Studios, the significance of the "Fantastic Four" release, and the broader implications for the superhero genre in Hollywood.

Transcript

[Matt Bellamy]

Before we get to today's show, I'm excited to announce our next live taping of the Town, which will be in Los Angeles on August 27th with me and a very special guest. We'll be at the El Rey Theater in LA and tickets go on sale today, Wednesday, July 23rd at 10:00am Pacific Time. More information is available at theringer.com events just click the link in the description of this episode. Hope to see you there. This episode is brought to you by Contentful Marketers. You know that feeling when your content just works? When you crush a viral trend before 10am when one tiny tweak to a landing page sends click through rates through the roof? That's contentful. Dynamic content made blissfully simple. Contentful helps you create and launch personalized experiences instantly across any digital channel. No stress, no limits, only possibilities. Come get the [e-mail] hi, I'm Ben.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Mankiewicz and on this season of the Plot Thickens. We're going behind the scenes on a film whose history it's a little close to home. Cleopatra was my Uncle Joe's biggest gamble and his greatest failure. It had everything you could want in a Hollywood blockbuster, but the budget and the on set love affair both went off the rails, creating a story even more dramatic than Cleopatra herself. The plot thickens. Cleopatra available now wherever you get your podcast. Visit tcm.compodcast to learn more.

[Matt Bellamy]

It is Wednesday, July 23rd. I went to the Fantastic Four premiere on Monday night. I made producer Jesse come with me. Craig is officially barred from superhero premieres now that he openly roots for them to fail. I would never do that. I thought the movie was fine. I'll leave it to the real critics to give their reviews. It's at 80 something on Rotten Tomatoes. Pretty good. Fans will definitely like it. But what struck me about Fantastic Four from a business perspective is that it's really the first true post pandemic, post Hollywood correction Marvel movie. And by that I mean it's a true standalone. You don't have to have seen the other movies or do any MCU homework to know who's who, what's happening. It doesn't have any Avengers in it. The dozens of characters that helped power Disney to box office heights that culminated in Endgame in 2019 and popped up populated. All those Disney shows that Marvel says it's pulling way back on now. And it's the first Marvel Studios movie based only on the IP that Disney got in its big acquisition of Fox. Even Deadpool and Wolverine last summer had some MCU People show up. This is just the Fantastic Four. For those reasons, a lot is riding on this one. Kevin Feige, the Marvel president, maybe the most successful movie producer of all time. He did a round of media interviews this past week, and he acknowledged the superhero fatigue that we've been talking about on the show and some of the changes afoot at Marvel. Fewer movies, less expensive movies, fewer and more disconnected TV shows, so you don't have to see everything to get it. It's a pullback for sure, and an acknowledgement that Marvel did too much and a lot of it wasn't great. And since COVID the box office track record has been mixed. For every Guardians of the Galaxy 3 and Black Wakanda Forever, there's been a failed attempt to launch a new character like Shang Chi or Eternals or the Anthony Mackie version of Captain America. Most recently, Thunderbolts. Those movies have all hovered around 400 million worldwide at the box office. Not terrible, but not Marvel. So what's going on and what's the solution here? After all, Marvel is the single biggest franchise in Hollywood. If it's not firing on all cylinders, neither is Hollywood itself. So today we've got Ben Fritz here. He's a Wall Street Journal reporter covering the entertainment business. He's also a big comic book guy. He did a whole podcast on the history of Marvel comics, and it's the Fantastic Four. The stakes for Marvel, and what's coming next from the ringer and puck. I'm Matt Bellamy, and this is the town. All right, we are here with Ben Fritz, who's the entertainment industry reporter at the Wall Street Journal. Welcome, Ben.

[Ben Fritz]

Thanks for having me, Matt.

[Matt Bellamy]

Okay, so you covered the business for a while. We know each other. And then you left and did some editing in other areas of the Journal. And then you came back after a few years, and Hollywood has basically gone to hell while you were gone.

[Ben Fritz]

Yeah, seriously, I thought things were a little rough in 2018, but, yeah, it's not exactly a golden age I've returned to.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right. But the one bright spot in the industry has always been Marvel, or at least since the late 2000s, has been Marvel. And yet over the past couple years, we have seen that juggernaut begin to either show its age or fall into a bit of a slump. And we saw Kevin Feige, the president of Marvel, do some press this past week. He is out there talking about the new plans and, in his words, correcting some of the misconceptions out there. And my interpretation of Feige doing press is because he has to they are in a tough spot. And there is a lot riding on both sides, this Fantastic Four movie, and perhaps more importantly, on these two Avengers movies that are currently in production. So is that your read as well on Feige's positioning right now? It's not the Mount Olympus God that he once was.

[Ben Fritz]

That's absolutely right. I mean, in the 2010s, Marvel could do no wrong. Right. It was just hit after hit after hit. And when he stepped on stage at Comic Con, it was like the arrival of a golden God.

[Matt Bellamy]

You know, the Beatles in a baseball cap.

[Ben Fritz]

Yes, 100%. And then they have fallen dramatically in the 2000s. And the reason is they pumped out all these TV shows from Marvel. There was way too much Marvel content. It was both too much for audiences to digest, and the quality control slipped.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right, so you think it is a quality issue and not just that they had such an unprecedented run leading up to Endgame, that. That it was necessarily going to fall off a cliff.

[Ben Fritz]

That's factor number three, and that's fair. It's always going to be hard after endgames. There was 10 years leading up to that. That was the climax. And what do you do next? Then, on top of that, they pump out too much content and the average quality starts falling. I think those are the three factors that explain why Marvel's been in such a bind. And, yeah, Foggy's out doing press now because they believe, they hope, that Fantastic Four is the beginning of a turnaround.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, from the start of the MCU in 2000 and 22,008 through Endgame in 2019. So that is 11 years, they made 50 hours of content total. And that is primarily the movies. After Endgame in 2019, through this movie, Fantastic Four, they've made 102 hours of entertainment, films and series. The number we go up to 127 hours if you include animation. And Feige also oversees that. But that number came not from some intrepid reporter. That number came from Disney. And Disney is putting that number out there to essentially say, yeah, we get it, we screwed up, we did too much, and now we've fixed this problem. So that's why I think they have a lot riding on this movie, because they claim that they have now fixed the problem. We're going to see fewer movies. We're going to going to see television shows that are not connected to some overall MCU narrative that you feel like you need to study up and hire a tutor to consult before you go to the multiplex, and that that will be the overarching theme going forward. And the question is, is that right to do that? Is that necessary? Is it temporary until they can get back on track and then the fire hose will open up again? How should we read between the lines here?

[Ben Fritz]

I think they're owning up to that now because they are willing to say it's part of the past. Right. And it's, you know, they're onto the turnaround. They're onto the cutback in production. Of course, you know, everybody's coming back in production because the streaming bubble is over.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right? Yeah. The economics don't work. And Bob Iger has been talking about this for two and a half years.

[Ben Fritz]

Yes, exactly. So there's economic pressures that are part of the story, too. But. But the problem and amazing thing at Marvel is everything funnels through the genius of Kevin Feige. Right. So you could say that's a feature or a flaw, and certainly when the quantity starts to go up, it's a flaw. I mean, I've reported a lot on how in the early 2000s, when they had all these TV shows going and the movies, people at Marvel were, like, hunting Feige in the hall, just trying to get five minutes of his attention so he could say yes or no to all these creative decisions that they had to make. Everything goes through Kevin Feige. There. He is not someone who has delegated a lot of responsibility to the people below him. They're not empowered a lot. But he's the most successful producer of the century, without a doubt. So you can say that there's good reasons for it.

[Matt Bellamy]

Do you believe the narrative that we were stretched too thin?

[Ben Fritz]

I mean, I think the audience has felt that, yes. I think audiences would say, I've spoken to a lot of fans at Comic Cons and so on, and outside the premieres, they would say, I couldn't keep track of it, so I checked out. And then when I checked out, I felt like I didn't know what was going on, so I just stopped watching. That is true for a lot of people, I think. Without a doubt.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. If you look at the calendar, they've got Fantastic Four, and then they don't have another movie for a year. I mean, they produce Spider man, so Spider Man 4 is coming out next summer. Brand New Day, and then it's Doomsday next Christmas. That was supposed to be a May movie, but they bumped it to December based on some production delays. Thank you, Russo Brothers. And they've got a show on Disney that dropped about a month ago based on Black Panther, Ironheart, that Nobody is talking about. I don't think it's made much of an impression in the fan community. It was on the shelf for over a year. And they've got this Hollywood set show called Wonder Man. Yeah. That's coming out later this year. But that is a dramatic pullback.

[Ben Fritz]

Yes. I mean, in 2021, 2022, there was basically always a Marvel thing to watch, either on Disney or in theaters.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. It was an always on proposition. And that's. We talked about it back then.

[Ben Fritz]

Yeah. And at times, there were movies and TV shows at the same time. There was too. You know, you could go to the movie theater and then come back and watch some TV shows. Yeah. They thought fans just couldn't get enough of Marvel. It turns out, of course, even the hardest core fans can get enough Marvel. So now they've dramatically pulled back, in part because they know fans want less, but also, you can talk to anybody internally, they will tell you the pressure on these movies has been ratcheted up dramatically.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. Can you do that? Can you overkill and then pull back and have it be okay?

[Ben Fritz]

Well, only if the movies get a lot better. Right? That's the answer. The thing is, in the 2010s, Marvel had this momentum, and people would just see every Marvel movie and remember, not every Marvel movie in the 2000 and tens was great. There were a share of thinkers. Thor 2 is bad. Iron Man 2 is terrible. But people saw all of them. Anyway, people just kept going, and now people are really judging each movie on its own merits. They don't feel like I've got to see it anymore. And in fact, in order to avoid this problem of all the content seeming like homework, Marvel is very much having them be more standalone. And Fantastic Four is a pretty standalone.

[Matt Bellamy]

Movie, not pretty standalone. It is 100% standalone. I was looking for cameos from various Avengers. I was leaning over to producer Jesse and ready to say, oh, who's that? Who's that? Nobody. It's all from the original comics.

[Ben Fritz]

Right. So the good part of that is you don't have to have done your homework. Right. So you can just go enjoy it. But the bad part is there's nobody who's like, well, after the last one, I got to see what happens next in the MCU story. This movie will live or die by its own merits.

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, there's a teaser at the end. I don't want to give it away. But they do say it's in the reviews that the Fantastic Four will return in Doomsday.

[Ben Fritz]

Wow, Matt. Huge spoiler.

[Matt Bellamy]

No, no, no. We know that from the cast.

[Ben Fritz]

I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'm joking. That's.

[Matt Bellamy]

They did those 27 director chairs with all the names on it. And the Fantastic Four was in that.

[Ben Fritz]

It's not a spoiler. You do not have to worry about having seen the post credit scene to understand what's going to happen in Adventures. Don't worry about.

[Matt Bellamy]

But the whole prospect of Avengers Doomsday feels very regressive and safe and frankly, boring. It feels like Feige is throwing up his hands and saying, okay, so the fans have not been into what we've been doing in Phase five in the past couple years. So you know what? We're just going to play the hits. What's Downey's number? We'll bring him back. We killed him off. Okay? We'll have him play a different character. We'll bring everybody back who could possibly come back. We'll call it Avengers. Even though we haven't had five to seven years of successful storytelling to justify the team up. We're going to do the team up anyways. We're going to call the Russos, who have their pros and cons. I've been pretty anti Russos on this podcast, but they are the credited directors on the three most successful of the team up movies. So call the Russos. We'll have them do it again, and we'll just play the hits and it will work. And the history of Hollywood is hit and miss on that strategy.

[Ben Fritz]

You know what it reminds me a lot of? Matt is. Reminds me of Star Wars Episode nine. Right. Episode seven. Huge hit. And Episode eight comes out and people aren't sure they like it. It doesn't hold. It doesn't do as well as Disney hopes. Okay, just bring back JJ let's just go back.

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, we'll bring back the emperor. We'll know if. If Thanos appears in Avengers Doomsday.

[Ben Fritz]

Yes, exactly.

[Matt Bellamy]

We'll know that they just went back to the well, but you. You monitor the fan community. Is that. Has that been the reaction within the fan communities? Are they just, like, so excited? They're all pissing themselves that Downey is back.

[Ben Fritz]

My experience interviewing fans are just the latter. They are so excited that Downey's. They love Downey so much.

[Matt Bellamy]

What if Marvel was always just about Robert Downey Jr. What if the 37 movies and the billion dollars that they have grossed, what if it was all because of one dude?

[Ben Fritz]

You know, Marvel made him and now they are captive to him, Right? When. When they hired Him. He was a nobody. Right.

[Matt Bellamy]

Nobody wanted Noel. He wasn't nobody. He was.

[Ben Fritz]

He was on the outs. He was on the outs. He had. He had imploded. Right is maybe the right phrase right now. They need him desperately. They've built him up so much, you know, and I think you're right. At this point, they've never had as big a success without him as they had with him. And they can't figure. It's kind of like DC was with Chris Nolan for a long time.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And even when he wasn't in a movie, you had to watch the movie because it led into the movie that he was in. And the difference in the past couple years is that none of these were leading into movies that he was in. And now they have him back.

[Ben Fritz]

That's right. And in fact, they weren't leading into anything was the problem. They were more spiraling the drain as the story got worse and worse and people characterized less and less.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And then at the end of Avengers 6. So Avengers Secret wars, which is scheduled for 27 and is supposed to shoot next year, that they say is going to set up the future of Marvel, which will include the introduction of the X Men. And that is the big wild card here, because since 2019, these characters from Fox have been available to Marvel Studios, and Feige has been very deliberate about doling them out. Obviously, we had a Deadpool 3 brought in, Wolverine for that one. That was another Fox character. Now, Fantastic Four getting a standalone Avengers will come and be introduced in these Avengers movies, and then presumably they will get their own standalone movies. Is the Fox IP kind of the crucial key to this next phase of Marvel?

[Ben Fritz]

Absolutely. I mean, the X Men are arguably Marvel's most important characters alongside the Avengers. And the fact that they've never been part of the MCU means a lot to fans. And if Feige can do a really good job with them, I think it'll breathe new life into the mcu. Especially this way he doesn't have to keep digging down for, like, you know, C list and D list characters to try to make something out of them.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, but the problem is it's already been done. I mean, that's partially the problem with Fantastic Four as well, that there have been three other movies, but X Men has been done well. Like the Bryan Singer movies were good, and they've done six or seven of them, and most of them are pretty good.

[Ben Fritz]

That's right. There's a much higher bar to stand up to. This is the first decent Fantastic Four movie, I think Most fans will agree when they see it. The X Men, they have a high bar to live up to now, but at least there's a lot of excitement for the brand. There's good feeling for the characters, so that's something for him to work with. But really, that's the future. Everything you wrote Fantastic Four, they really needed to work. And then Avengers has to work. If the next two Avengers don't work, then Marvel is beyond screwed.

[Matt Bellamy]

And what is working? Because everybody I talk to at Disney is saying, you can't judge us on the billion dollar scale. That is over 700 or 800 is the new billion. Because China is not a factor anymore because of the post Covid cadence of people going to movies. Because this is now the 37th Marvel movie and you can't expect these to perform on the same level forever. That if these movies get to 6,700 million dollars, that is a huge win. Even Avengers, which, you know, the last Avengers, grossed $2.9 billion. So even half of that would be by far the biggest movie of the year. But what is success for Marvel?

[Ben Fritz]

It's a fair question. I mean, look, Lilo and Stitch grossed a billion dollars, so it's not impossible to do still. And Disney's argument would be, look, if a movie that costs 200, 250 grosses 6, 7, 8, they're making a profit. And that's important.

[Matt Bellamy]

Is that enough, though? Iger used to count on three or four of these things a year to float everything else.

[Ben Fritz]

Marvel was bringing in so much value. I mean, if the bottom line is Marvel was bringing in several billion dollars worth of grosses 5, 10 years ago, and now they're bringing in less than a billion dollars total per year or something, then that's a loss. I mean, that, that's, that hits Disney's bottom line. That hits the valuation of Disney and the value that Marvel brings to it. And don't forget that box office success brings streaming success brings consumer product success brings theme park success, et cetera.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, we saw Josh d' Amaro at the premiere. He was very quick to tell us that the Fantastic Four will soon be appearing in Disneyland day and date along with the movie. So you can go have your picture taken with Johnny Storm.

[Ben Fritz]

That's wonderful. And it'd be a good promotion. But are people going to love the Fantastic Four enough that they want to go on a ride in five years? Right. That's really the question. They really need people to be excited about Marvel again. That's what they need most of all.

[Craig Horlebeck]

I want to Ask about the casting for these upcoming Avengers and X Men and all this stuff. Ben, I want to get your opinion. Because Superman managed to do somewhat well. Well, critically, it seems like fans like the movie. I don't know financially if it'll be considered a success.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, we'll talk about that.

[Craig Horlebeck]

But one thing was this movie succeeded without having any major stars. I'm just curious now with Avengers, how they're gonna have to cast the next slate of these movies. Because Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth and Robert Downey Jr. These were all major major stars. And you could argue maybe the movies made them stars. But do you think they're going to have to try to do that again? Where they're gonna have to go after kind of these like mid level people, prop them up. Or do you have to go after major stars now to make this work?

[Ben Fritz]

I think the superhero formula all the way back to Christopher Reeve is like, if the movie is working, then the character should be bigger than the star.

[Craig Horlebeck]

But Robert Downey Jr. Being Dr. Doom suggests the opposite.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And the fact that from everything I've heard on Avengers, Doomsday, the second lead is Hemsworth.

[Ben Fritz]

Interesting.

[Matt Bellamy]

Like he's got a major role.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Isn't that admitting that they're terrified to try to build new stars?

[Matt Bellamy]

Yes, I think so. I think that Avengers is sort of a different thing. The expectations are so high for that that I think they feel they need to have these stars that everybody already knows in these roles to eventize it to that degree. But they had a choice on Fantastic Four. They could have gone after bigger names and paid more, but they went for more of these character actors, TV stars, people that are known but not huge movie stars. And I think that was a choice because like what Ben said, they feel like if this is going to work, it's going to work regardless of whether Scarlett Johansson is in it.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Yeah, but if the hunger for these movies is lowered, you have to increase the star power to make it work.

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, certainly that's what Universal thought with Jurassic World going after Scarlet and getting, you know, getting her in their big franchise. But I don't know. I mean, maybe they certainly didn't do it on Thunderbolts. Those were not major stars. I also think there's a kind of anti Marvel feeling around town in the talent community as well. Where it used to be you would hold your nose and do the Marvel movie because it was an automatic billion dollar grocer and it would launch you. And now you do the Marvel movie and you don't. What's the pop you get off of it. Not as much.

[Ben Fritz]

Right. You're doing more for Disney than they're doing for you potentially. Right?

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. What did Brie Larson get off of Marvel's?

[Ben Fritz]

Don't forget Craig. The big difference with Downey is he's going to do these two Avengers movies and that's probably it. Right. So they pay him for these two and they're done. Marvel is hoping the Fantastic Four and then the X Men that those actors are going to be in five, six, seven movies. Right. So they don't want us to be paying people $20 million out of the gate. You know, they want to sign them to multi movie deals that are not going to cost them a fortune even for the final one.

[Matt Bellamy]

They don't want to be in the Downey situation, which is a famous story where they didn't have him signed after Iron man and ended up having to back up the Brinks truck for every time he was ever in a Marvel movie after that. That never happened again.

[Ben Fritz]

Right.

[Adam Sandler]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix's Happy Giltmore 2. We're back. Thirty years ago, he decided to give golf a try. Now he's ready for the happiest comeback of all time. Adam Sandler's beloved golf legend returns to the green for another swing at glory. Just remember, it's all in the hips. Also starring Ben Stiller. I like him. Julie Bowen like her. And Benito Antonio Martinez Ocasio. Happy Gilmore 2 only on Netflix July 25th.

[Home Depot Representative]

Right now at the Home Depot, you'll find storage solutions made to fit your needs. Grab an HDX tough tote to protect your tools. Or keep your sports equipment contained with reinforced snap fit lids. Or stack up and make better use of your space with bins and totes built to last. Whatever your story, we've got the gear to keep it organized and protected at the Home Depot. How doers get more done.

[Matt Bellamy]

So Craig mentioned Superman. So I think we should talk about the trajectories of DC and Marvel. Because you talk to people at Disney and they're like, well, wait a second, this isn't fair. Superman is going to top out at about 600 worldwide, maybe a little more. That is the A or B level character for DC. These are Marvel characters that are not a list. Thunderbolts, Shang Chi, the Eternals. The Fantastic Four has been done three times already. So why are we judging Marvel on such a higher standard than dc?

[Ben Fritz]

Well, because look at what Marvel's done. Marvel is a company. Unfortunately for them, Marvel's a company that brought out the Guardians of the Galaxy with the talking raccoon and grossed $770 million in the first one. They're the one who brought out Black Panther and grossed $1.3 billion. That's with the first movie starring him. So they've set themselves an incredibly high bar. And maybe that's unfair, but, you know, that's a problem they've created for themselves.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. So if you were to bet right now on one of them, DC or Marvel, what would you bet on?

[Ben Fritz]

I think what I would say right now is that dc, for the first time since the Dark Knight, has the momentum on its side, even though it's.

[Matt Bellamy]

Not gonna be hugely profitable. Superman.

[Ben Fritz]

No, it's not. But they have the fan excitement on their side, pending. Let's see what the fans think of Fantastic Four when it comes out. Let's see if the fans love it as much as they love Superman. The fans were very, very satisfied with Superman. Superman's not a movie. That's not a character that's huge overseas. They're not getting great international grosses on that movie, but the core audience was really happy with that, and they're excited for what Gunn and Saffron are bringing in the DC universe next. Currently, the fans are not very excited about the mcu, except for Downey. So we'll see if after Fantastic Four, they feel like Feige and Marvel have gotten their mojo back. But if forced to bet today, based on the current evidence in front of us, you'd have to say that DC's in a better position, which I can't believe I'm saying.

[Matt Bellamy]

I know there. And. And I don't know that I agree with you. I still think that if I had to pick one of them, I'd pick Marvel. I just feel like one quasi hit does not a franchise engine make. And some of the other stuff coming out, at least so far, we don't know when the Batman movie is going to actually come out. They say allegedly 27, first one was good. They've got a Supergirl movie that is already shot, and that may or may not be good. And then they've got a Clay Face movie that is like horror ish. They have stuff in development. They've got a writer on Wonder Woman, but, like, that's far away. So I don't know that one movie a year is going to be a force to be reckoned with.

[Ben Fritz]

Well, they have two movies next year. They have the Green Lanterns TV show we'll see. That's like a detective show.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. David Lindelof is involved in that, and he did Watchmen, which was very good.

[Ben Fritz]

Let's even say, Grant, Superman's good, and it's a hit, and it's everything they want it to be. Yeah. The next few things are bad. They're back at square one. But that's really the state of superheroes. The thing that's different. In the past, it was like, marvel's on top. Who cares if this movie's good or bad? They just. They can't do wrong. And now I feel like superhero movies are like any other kind of movie. This one's good. Great. I'll go see it. Oh, that one's not very good. Forget it. I'll just wait for streaming. There's not this excitement for the cinematic universe that there used to be.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. Feige also made some comments in these press rounds he did about succession, and he said, do I want to be making big movies for big audiences in 10 or 15 years from now? Yes, absolutely. That's all I want to do. Marvel's a great way to do that for me right now, but I hope to make big movies for lots of people forever. What does that mean? Does that mean he wants more than Marvel? So, I mean, remember he was gonna do a Star wars movie that ever happened? Is that him telegraphing that he'd like to be kicked upstairs and not doing the nitty gritty on these movies and maybe oversee more at Disney or elsewhere?

[Ben Fritz]

I don't know. Or does it mean that he could see himself becoming an independent producer and no longer having to be a corporate employee at some point in the future? Your guess is as good as mine. But Kevin Feige is somebody who certainly could go off and make one of the richest producing deals in Hollywood history if you want to do that.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, my God. The Netflix money, the Amazon money, would just, like, flow down the river, like, whatever you want. We will create a fake river of money for you. For you that flows through the Netflix headquarters directly to your Bel Air mansion.

[Ben Fritz]

Yes. They built in the Scrooge big duck ball to swim in.

[Matt Bellamy]

Without question, you get a gold baseball cap.

[Ben Fritz]

What that question really brought up to me was not just, what might Feige do next, but what would Marvel do if Kevin Feige left?

[Matt Bellamy]

I know. Who's the number two there? They've had good producers. They always present Luis Esposito as the number two. But is he ready?

[Ben Fritz]

He's really the guy who sort of keeps the trains running there, and everybody says he's great at that, but he's not like the creative guru the way Kevin is. And Kevin doesn't really have a really strong, obvious creative deputy, and he never has had. And that's been something. That's something people who work there have said to me over and over, is there's never been clear internal succession.

[Matt Bellamy]

Hmm. Maybe they could go repoach James Gunn.

[Ben Fritz]

That would be interesting. And I'm sure, you know, Warner Brothers in 2018 tried to. Around 2018, tried to convince Kevin Feige to come over and run DC for them. So maybe they could do. Maybe they could do a swap.

[Matt Bellamy]

That would be hilarious. Comic Con, do you go?

[Ben Fritz]

I used to. I'm not going this year because the studios are barely going.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, my God. Marvel and DC both ghosting Comic Con. Yeah, I hate it. I used to go for Holly Reporter. I used to have to go. It just. It's marketing. It smells bad. Everyone has bo. It's just like. It's just bad. I can't do it.

[Ben Fritz]

I'm going to take some issue. I think the smell thing is unfair, really. I like Comic Con. I'm a comic book guy. The fact that I could get paid to go to Comic Con is total dream come true. Matt, the people at Comic Con are so nice, and they are so genuinely.

[Matt Bellamy]

They are very nice.

[Ben Fritz]

Genuinely happy to be there.

[Matt Bellamy]

They're all in a Robert Smigel triumph. The Comic Dog sketch. Like, you feel bad for them.

[Ben Fritz]

They're so. But they're so earnest, you know? I mean, I know you're really cynical. You've been in Hollywood so long. Matt. But these are earnest, earnest entertainment fans, and they bring. They bring a smile to my face.

[Matt Bellamy]

My biggest issue at Comic Con is just you feel like you're being marketed to constantly. It is a marketing convention, and I just. I have an aversion to that. Occasionally you see a good trailer. I was there for the unveiling of the original Avatar footage. That was legitimately cool, and I'm glad I was there to see it first with everyone in person. But 99% of it feels like marketing, where there's 12 publicists standing behind the curtain making sure that people don't say anything outside the talking points.

[Ben Fritz]

That's 100% true, Matt, but you are someone who gets marketed to and spun by publicists every day. That's. That's what you've lived for decades for. Most fans just to have the idea of, like, the celebrity, the filmmaker there in front of them, talking, hyping their project. They love it.

[Matt Bellamy]

Okay, great. More power to them. I think we should send Craig for the weekend. And he has to do a video or some kind of remote piece for us where he tries to interview these people and not laugh.

[Ben Fritz]

Oh, be nice to them. You should be nice to those people, Matt.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, God. All right, well, I appreciate the time. Thanks for coming on.

[Ben Fritz]

Of course. It was my pleasure, Matt.

[Matt Bellamy]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, we missed you at the Fantastic Four premiere on Monday. Jesse had a great time, but people were very disappointed.

[Craig Horlebeck]

No, Craig, I don't appreciate you saying in the intro that I want these superhero movies to fail. That's not true at all.

[Matt Bellamy]

Do we have to roll the tape back? I believe you said exact thing on a recent show. So much so that I got an angry email from Disney.

[Craig Horlebeck]

I don't think I said I want these movies to fail.

[Matt Bellamy]

Okay, all right.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Maybe slow down. Maybe not.

[Matt Bellamy]

Maybe yes.

[Craig Horlebeck]

A million of them.

[Matt Bellamy]

No, it was a very good time. Although the food, not great at the premiere. Very nice venue. The music center downtown is very nice. Has a 60s vibe for this.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Yeah. Did they make it look all 1960s?

[Matt Bellamy]

They did, yes. It was very cool. It's got a sort of modernist look inside this venue. But, you know, food not great. They could do better than pigs in a blanket. And the, you know, the meat skewers. Very corporate retreat vibe.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Don't slander pigs in a blanket. That's up there for me. For past apps, that's one of the best past apps I know.

[Matt Bellamy]

But it's a fricking Walt Disney company, man. You know, show some respect. They got it. They gotta step it up a little. You got real movie stars in this building.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Well, perhaps a signal of what's to come for Fantastic Four, maybe.

[Matt Bellamy]

All right, so the tracking on this movie is between 100 and 110. NRG has it at 110 and. But NRG was over on Superman. Let's set the line at 105, which is good and is higher than the past few Marvel movies. Captain America got to 88 in its opening. Thunderbolts opened to 74.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Ant man and the Wasp, Quantumania open to 106. So it's officially in the Quantumania zone.

[Matt Bellamy]

I know, but they have higher expectations, I think, for this just because they have put a lot of marketing behind it. It is sort of like a level marvel in terms of the attention they've given it. But this movie's been done three times before, and the last Fantastic Four, a decade ago, only opened to 25 million. So this would be significantly more than that. I'm going to take the over on 105. And I don't think it's going to get to the Superman level of 125, which I know everyone at Warner Brothers is very hoping that it doesn't because they want to say that they beat Marvel and they're head to head, but I do think it's going to beat 105.

[Craig Horlebeck]

I'm going to take the under.

[Matt Bellamy]

You are?

[Craig Horlebeck]

Yeah, for a couple reasons. I think this movie's coming out pretty late in the summer. Not a lot of Marvel movies do that.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, except last summer. This is when Deadpool and Wolverine came out and it grossed a billion dollars.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Correct. But Deadpool and Wolverine was the culmination of the prior era of Marvel ending and already had two beloved billion dollar grocers coming before. This is kicking off a new franchise for the third time on July 24 after a summer of a lot of big movies. And I think that there's fatigue just going to the theaters in the summer. I think there's Pedro Pascal fatigue. The guy's in every goddamn movie, especially this summer.

[Matt Bellamy]

Although no one's seeing Eddington, but yes, he is a lot. He's in a lot.

[Craig Horlebeck]

And then this is just completely anecdotal. I was with a lot of friends away this weekend. None of them cared. They were kind of tired from the whole thing. And I was. I was driving a week ago. I looked up at the Fantastic Four poster and I don't know why, I stared at it and I was like, this movie's not gonna work.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, wow.

[Craig Horlebeck]

No one's gonna wanna see you.

[Matt Bellamy]

Heard it first from Craig's friends. This movie will not work.

[Craig Horlebeck]

Look, isn't that how movie executives greenlight movies? Isn't it based on what they think their children will like?

[Matt Bellamy]

I know, but you know what? Lucas and I made a pact at the beginning of the year. We were not gonna use personal anecdotes to make broader conclusions.

[Craig Horlebeck]

You talk about your kid liking movies.

[Matt Bellamy]

All the time Sometimes, but I don't use it as like the basis for my full opinion. So we'll see. Someone will be right and someone will be wrong here. I am pro superhero movie. Pro Disney. Craig is the Underminer. He's trying to bring them all down.

[Craig Horlebeck]

My friends are the target audience. A bunch of 30 year old dudes who used to go to superhero movies.

[Matt Bellamy]

Okay, we'll see. We'll see. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Ben Fritz, producer Craig Horlebeck, artist Jesse Lopez, a nice big hot plate of pigs in a blanket. And I want to thank you. We'll see you one more time this week.