← The Town with Matthew Belloni
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- [00:00]
A
This episode of the Town is presented by HBO Max, presenting the Emmy award winning HBO original series Hacks for your consideration, starring Gene Smart and Hannah Einbinder. The new season picks up with Deborah Vance's late night show finally in production and Ava Daniels stepping in as head writer. To Deborah's dismay, their ever complicated relationship is pushed to new limits as they clash over creative direction and get entangled in blackmail and betrayal. Don't miss the series Slate says has never been better. Now streaming on HBO Max, this episode of the Town is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting J. Kelly a film by Academy Award nominee Noah Baumbach. George Clooney stars as a famous movie actor who embarks on a journey of self discovery, confronting his past and present with his devoted manager played by Adam Sandler. Critics agree George Clooney and Adam Sandler give career best performances ad and Awards Watch hails it as one of the best films of the year. Now playing in select theaters on Netflix December 5th for your awards consideration. It is Thursday, December 4th. The town has a surprisingly large audience among film students. I guess not that surprising. I've had many come up to me at events and say their film professor actually assigned episodes of this show to listen to. Hopefully not ones where Lucas and I are droning on about the Dodgers. This show is not a substitute for a formal education, of course. Or is it not the Town in particular? But is the real world experience of trying to break into Hollywood on your own better than a formal education at a film school? It's the age old question, and it's even more relevant in this day and age when the traditional film and TV industry is shrinking. Anyone can make content on their phone and distribute it worldwide on YouTube and have a career that way. And information about the inner workings of the entertainment business is available online or even on a podcast. I think ever since the invention of film schools alongside Hollywood back in the 1920s, there's been that debate among students. Is it worth it? Is spending a few years and tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars learning how to be a filmmaker or a creative executive or a visual effects supervisor or whatever specialty? Is that the correct path? Or is it better to sling coffee on a movie set or work in the UTA mailroom? Or just use those tens of thousands of dollars to make stuff, develop your own talent that way, to the extent you have any? Quentin Tarantino once said, I didn't go to film school, I went to films. But others, everyone from Spielberg to Spike Lee to Ryan Coogler, they speak pretty highly of Their experience, connections they made there. There are dozens of accredited film schools offering Masters of Fine Arts in this country. More overseas. When I was at the Holly Reporter, we started ranking them every year. One of the editors there, who was an early mentor to me and helped put together that list, he did a bunch of stuff there, including inventing the popular roundtable series that you've probably seen online. He eventually left THR and became the dean of a film school himself, Stephen Galloway, who for the past five years has been the dean at Chapman University's Dodge College of Film and Media Arts in Orange County. Stephen graciously agreed to come on the show and answer the uncomfortable question, the one that every film school dean doesn't really want to get asked. Is film school really worth it? That's the topic today from the Ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany, and this is the Town.
- [03:22]
Okay. We are here with Stephen Galloway, who is dean of Dodge College's Film and Media Arts program at Chapman University. Did I get that title right, Stephen?
- [03:34]
B
Well, you did, but as we know, titles are the easiest thing to give away when people ask you for more money is a problem.
- [03:42]
A
How is it that you have not been on the town? We've been doing this show more than three years. You have not been on the town. You are a friend of mine. We worked together a very long time at Hollywood Porter. You were a very early mentor of mine there, and you have never been on the town. How is that possible?
- [03:56]
B
Thank you. I mean, I love this show. And so am I, what you're doing, and I'm terrified of being too grilled by you, even though I encourage you to ask me.
- [04:04]
A
Oh, stop, please. You taught me. I learned it from you.
- [04:08]
B
I know. You know, when I do my next book, I'd absolutely love to, because I do think it's very relevant to. It's about Hollywood in 1939.
- [04:16]
A
Oh, it is. Oh, that's fun. That's the big year when all the, you know, Snow White and Wizard of Oz and everything came out.
- [04:22]
B
Not Snow White, but Wizard of Oz, Gone with the Wind.
- [04:25]
A
When did Snow white come out?
- [04:27]
B
37.
- [04:28]
A
Ah, okay. I think. I think in what I've read, I think it was still playing in 39 because it was one of those that played for years because people talk about that year as, like, the watershed year in. In cinema. Speaking of Hollywood, I want to talk about a subject that comes up a lot. We have a lot of film school listeners of this show, and they often will come up to me, and they've asked us to do a topic like this and for whatever reason we have not. You have graciously agreed to come on the show. So I'm going to start by reading parts of an email that Craig and I received from a student. I don't want to say who or what school it was not your school. This is what the email said. We spend years learning theory and craft, yet step out into a job market that's shrinking, hyper competitive and often built on connections more than merit. There's a real conversation to be had about whether film school actually prepares you for Hollywood. And if not, what does. This uncertainty has led to rising dropout rates, anxiety and burnout. Many of my peers are questioning if the path is even sustainable. There's a strange irony in how film majors are both romanticized and ridiculed. We grow up believing it's the dream path into Hollywood, only to realize the industry often undervalues the very education meant to prepare us for it. So welcome to the town. Stephen, how do you respond to that one?
- [05:57]
B
So this is actually beautifully written email.
- [06:00]
A
Yeah, I'll put you guys in touch. He's very smart.
- [06:03]
B
I'm always happy to speak to anybody who wants to email me. I'll give you my email. S gallowayatman.edu oh.
- [06:11]
A
Beware. Okay, but, but it's a legitimate point. I think a lot of film students, this has always been the case, but these days in particular with the democratization of the tools to make stuff and the perception that the, the industry is shrinking and that there's fewer opportunities, like how do you address a student like that who's really questioning the value?
- [06:34]
B
First of all, to question the question. Film school is a very broad term and there are many film programs that aren't strictly film schools and there are a few great film schools. And you'd actually be shocked at how few students are in film school. There are roughly 19 million undergraduates in America. Universities give out between 5 and 9,000 degrees that are film related every year.
- [07:02]
A
That's undergrad.
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B
Yes. Now look at those numbers. This is a tiny, tiny percentage of students doing undergraduate degrees.
- [07:11]
A
But then what about graduate schools? Because I'm talking mostly about people who decide to go to graduate school for film to get a Master's of Fine arts.
- [07:18]
B
But that's an even tiny number. For instance, we bring in 375 freshman undergraduates every year. We bring in about 110 max 120 graduate students. So I do actually want to separate the two because the bulk of the film school education is actually an undergraduate education.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah, no, I get that.
- [07:39]
B
And I believe an undergraduate education is incredibly important. And it's not for teaching you a craft. It's teaching you to think and approach things questioningly, skeptically. And if you've done that and you're given a script to write coverage on, and you recognize that this is a ripoff of something else, or that you can learn from awesome wealth how to make this better, you have a huge advantage. I will tell you, this is something that we've increased in our program, and so should every film school, because this is what starting jobs are. So if you're Natash Leon bringing in Russian doll to someone who's never seen Groundhog Day, that is a problem. Right, And a good film education should prepare you for that.
- [08:24]
A
Right, but. But I mean, this email suggests the good film education could be had by watching every title on Netflix.
- [08:32]
B
So there's so many aspects to a good film education. Harvest film studies, harvest craft. We have a class called Finding a Job that Danny Halstead teaches to prepare students for that environment. 500 students each year get internships through our career center that prepares them for that environment. But just sticking to an undergraduate education for a second. 40% of what you do is general education. And the goal here is to teach you to think in a very, very changing world. Matt, you studied be a lawyer. You were the editor of the book, the student newspaper. Now you're doing a podcast. I went to two films.
- [09:09]
A
When you put it that way, yes.
- [09:12]
B
And I had a career in journalism. I learned a lot, by the way. One of the most valuable things I learned, I remember Art Murphy, very famous writer for Variety, who did a class on the economics of the industry for decades. That served me because I'm sure you and I, you remember this. We did a story about how much money Sandra Bullock made for from Gravity.
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A
Oh, yeah, of course. I remember the angry phone calls when they didn't want us to publish it.
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B
Yes. You. You dealt with those? I dealt with having to get the numbers right. And it all came down to, was she a first dollar participant? What does that mean? What does profit actually mean?
- [09:48]
A
Well, that's what stuff we talk about on the show all the time. But that's kind of my point is like, do you need a film education to understand the economics of the business? And do you need the nitty gritty of a cinematography class to understand how to make a good looking piece of content? And that's the crux of what I think a lot of students ask themselves before deciding to Go to film school. Do I need this? How do you address that for graduate students thinking of going to film school? Do I need this?
- [10:26]
B
So my first point was a defense of an undergraduate education. And by the way, higher education is truly in crisis in America. A graduate education is a different thing. And where you're going and what you're studying make a gigantic difference. So again, I absolutely believe that anything you can do that's going to deepen you, enrich you mentally, intellectually, is going to help you in ways you don't necessarily know further down your career. But then there are specific programs. Yes, if you're a cinematographer, you absolutely need that education because you can pick things up over a 10, 15 year period working. We have two problems. Number one, what is the job you're going to get? How well prepared are you for that job? And then you picking things up piecemeal as opposed to sitting? Because I've sat in cinematography classes where they're looking for hours at different lenses and different lights and different focal lengths. And this is a jam packed two years where you get mentors assigned to you. If this is done well, this prepares you extremely well. But by the way, there are many students I discourage from doing a master's degree because I'm horrified by student debt. The average student debt for undergraduates in America is something like 42,000 graduates. It's 106,000.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah, it's crazy. And most of the top film schools now, the private ones, are between 50 and 60,000 a year.
- [11:59]
B
Yeah, I mean, ours is 51,000. You know, you get some discounts. We get a lot more undergrad and I'm terrified of that. Would I pay that myself? Only if I really believe there's an end goal.
- [12:10]
A
So what is the end goal for most of your students?
- [12:13]
B
So we're a conservatory, so you come and you study producing, cinematography, writing for the screen. We have film and media studies students. Each one has a different end goal. If you're a producing student, the end goal is to get one of those jobs at CAA or WME or uta, or work for a great producer. People like Lucy Fisher and Doug Wick, who regularly hire our students.
- [12:38]
A
And those producers are hiring students after film school rather than just any student before film.
- [12:45]
B
And this is a key point. Most of them do, yes.
- [12:49]
A
Okay, so there you go. That's what you pitch, is that there are jobs available only to graduates of film school.
- [12:56]
B
You said only. And I'm questioning the word only, but it massively.
- [13:01]
A
But this student that emailed me is questioning Only because his fear is that it's a connections based or randomness based or bottom of the barrel UTA assistant job that you have to start in regardless of your education background. So why not just start when you graduate college or even before? You know, a lot of these early moguls, they didn't have educations. They just went straight to the business.
- [13:28]
B
Yeah. So not every path is right for everybody. You know, for some people, it's going to be better to get that education that really helps you. Some other people are going to be very entrepreneurially minded. And by the way, with a shrinking workplace, it's critical that we teach students to think entrepreneurially. We're putting classes in about entrepreneurship because with this knowledge, you can actually create businesses that hire other students. But it is still the best part, best path into the business. This idea of nepotism. Sure, nepotism counts to some degree. But Matt, you know perfectly well when we talk about hiring people, we're going for people we know who are good.
- [14:08]
A
I know.
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B
Not people who are the sons and daughters of.
- [14:11]
A
Yeah, but. But there are often those paths. There's 30,000 people that want a couple of jobs in the mailroom. The person who's related to the producer probably gets the job.
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B
First of all, this is a vast exaggeration. And I tell you, we have dozens of students who get those mailroom jobs.
- [14:31]
A
Okay, all right.
- [14:31]
B
But it's also the best. So just to clarify, each program is different and has different value. Some film schools, it's a general film education as a graduate program. If you're at the AFI or Chapman, you're really learning about one thing.
- [14:47]
A
Yeah, the specialties. I get that a little bit more. The specialties where it's a real craft. It's not something where after school you're going into a generalist job to kind of learn how to ascend in the business. It's a craft job, costume design, sound design, that you want to have a resume of expertise in order to focus on that when you get out of school.
- [15:11]
B
Exactly. So this is the majority of the students, and then you have the directors or the writers or the producers. And again, there are different paths. I went from being a directing student to writing about the film business because I realized writing and film were two of my great passions. Places like the Sphere are going to be hiring these students. There's a company, downtown Orbital, which specializes in virtual production. They hire our students because they are taught those skills. So each different major and each different program is going to prepare you in different ways.
- [15:43]
A
What percentage of your students now come in with a goal of being a digital creator, of making videos for the Internet rather than dealing with the gatekeepers of traditional Hollywood?
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B
Whether they come in like that or not, we teach them that.
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A
You do?
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B
Yes.
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A
I mean, here's how to make your screen grabs look like Mr. Beast.
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B
Well, no, but if you're working in verticals, which is a great way in for young people, we prepared for that. There are classes on different media that you're going to work in. We changed our writing program so that it's not feature screenwriting or television writing, but writing for web verticals, any screen.
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A
Uplighting. You need uplighting. You need the Kim Kardashian. You need a week on the Kim Kardashian uplighting.
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B
Now you come to the other question. What do students do when they're in film school? I'm always shocked at the ones who grab every opportunity and the ones who don't. So if you are prepared to use film school, well, then it's a terrific shrinking of what could otherwise take you 10 or 15 years. And there is a sort of you're already past the first barrier because there are so few. As I said, there are a few thousand people in graduate film school programs.
- [17:00]
A
Yeah. So you're making the point that it is a culling of the herd to begin with, that you are giving yourself an advantage in the race simply by being at one of these schools.
- [17:13]
B
Absolutely.
- [17:18]
A
This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Wayfair's Black Friday sale is the perfect time to score huge deals on all things home, no matter what your style. Starting October 31, you can shop Wayfair's can't miss Black Friday deals all month long. Plus you can sit back and relax with Wayfair's fast and easy shipping. Just in time for the holidays. I am loving my new stuff from Wayfair. I got a couch and cover for the outdoors so it doesn't get rained on. We've got some rugs for the indoor family room. Next up, my kid's room. He needs a new bed. Wayfair's the place. Gonna get a kid bed for my nine year old. We're gonna get him probably some new shelves, maybe a rug, tie the whole room together. Everything's at Wayfair. Wayfair is the go to destination for everything home, no matter your style or budget. They make it easy with fast and free shipping, even on the big stuff. They'll even help you set it up. Don't miss out on Early Black Friday deals. Head to Wayfair.com now to shop Wayfair's Black Friday deals for up to 70% off. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com sale ends December 7th. This episode is brought to you by Sentimental Value, which isn't just the must see film of the season. It's the must feel film of the year from the director of the worst person in the world. Joachim Trier's story of love, family and reconciliation is being hailed by critics as one of the best films of the decade, if not ever. Starring Renata Reinsveh, Stellan Skarsgrd and Elle Fanning in career best performances, Sentimental Value is a modern masterpiece. See it in theaters now. What about these schools that promise that you'll be able to make your film? I've heard a lot of skepticism about that. People pick film schools because they advertise. Well, you know, we allow a certain amount of people to actually make their films and it ends up being like 5 of a class of 200 get to do that.
- [19:11]
B
Yes. And I'm completely against that. I find absolutely objectionable that one of the film schools I went to, I'm not going to name it because I dropped out, held that promise. And then you get there and you realize everybody's in competition to make a handful of thesis films. So every graduate student, every graduate directing student makes thesis film, among many others. So that's part of our culture. And by the way, we subsidize it. We give $20,000 for each graduate thesis film. We also limit what students can spend because I'm so appalled by. By the debt that students face.
- [19:47]
A
That's interesting. And obviously, and a lot of these production costs have come down for the lower end of production. Obviously at the higher end, it's more expensive than ever. But you can make something for a lot less than even 10 years ago when you needed the apparatus, you needed all of the accoutrements of a traditional film.
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B
Well, you've seen Tangerine and Stormbecker, made it on iPhone. So yes, it's possible. Lighting, sound, mix, they're still extremely expensive and sophisticated. But to get the key point, it depends what program you're doing. It depends if you're in a conservatory or if you're in a film. So that's giving you general education. It depends how well you're going to use it when you get there and seize opportunities. And these are things students should look at. I'm not defending every film school in America or every Film school graduate. And I'm not saying everybody has to do it. If you, the young Barry Diller with an incredibly entrepreneurial, creative business mind, you're probably not going to do well in a film school. But most people benefit hugely.
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A
Okay, and what about this argument that if you don't get into the top two or three schools, it's not worth it because those are the ones that really have a pipeline to the industry. Those are where the top producers go to look. That's where. If you are Ryan Coogler and you go to USC and you are obviously talented, that's where you're going to meet the collaborators that are going to be on your level. Coogler works with a lot of his USC film school colleagues, like his guy that does his scores and his production designer. People like that. What about that argument?
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B
Well, that one I kind of agree with because the truth is there are handful, maybe a few more of great film schools.
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A
Yeah, you'd put yours in that category. I don't want to go through the rankings. These rankings are silly. I know we used to do them at Holly Reporter, but that's kind of why I think they're silly, because we would just go off of the data that they put out on their graduation rates and their employment rates and things like that. And I know that matters, but.
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B
But those are helpful for. Or students apply.
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A
Where's the line? You know, some might say if you don't get into usc, don't do it. Obviously you would disagree with that.
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B
I'm glad you put the words into my mouth because I'm not going to say anything about our competitors. It depends if you go into documentary. Stanford is a brilliant school for documentary. They only take, I don't know, six, seven, eight, nine students a year. It's not listed in those top film schools. So animation schools, that's a whole other program.
- [22:24]
A
Yeah. Is Calard still considered the best for that?
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B
It's one of the best and it's a great animation school. So it's not just those very top few, but there is a New York LA axis for the film and media industry. And it certainly is going to help you if you're in a school that's on that axis because that's where you get to meet people. And you know, we have people from the industry coming in, not just every day, multiple times every day.
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A
I know you've really boosted that. That was one of your big initiatives.
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B
When you did that job.
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A
I remember. And you now bring in, like top talents all the time.
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B
Yesterday, the K Pop Demon Hunter directors Monday.
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A
So that's on your number. That's your number one.
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B
You know my taste. Yes. But it is a brilliant animation film. We have Paul Thomas Anderson on Monday.
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A
That is probably on your list of that is.
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B
And Ariana Grande this Friday which is going to be insane. But actually it's the people you meet who are the heads of marketing and you know, the, the people who the entertainment laws, the match who are really going to give you much more guidance. This is fun in, in a career and help you make contacts. And then going back to what you're saying, yes, you form your tribe. You know, Barry Jenkins was at Florida State. He's still working with that group of students. And if you're coming out and you want to get something off the ground, low budget, the hardest thing is to know who's good to form that team. You and I, if we suddenly launched another trade publication, we would know who to pluck because we've been in that world. If you're a student and you're coming out, you, you don't. And I think that's an incredibly important part of a great film school that you're going to meet people who are going to be the leaders of the business in years to come. But if you're not good, then it's a waste of time.
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A
That's the blurb. That's the blurb.
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B
Head of marketing for Steven Spielberg. Teacher, class. She knows film history inside out. And we filter out. The great film schools are filtering out a lot of people before the Terry Press decides who to hire. So this is part of that. Again, it's not right for everybody. And if someone comes to me and says, look, I'm thinking putting $106,000 down, I would really say to let's think about what this is going to get.
- [24:44]
A
You can make your film for that amount of money.
- [24:48]
B
You can. But again, I will tell you, garbage.
- [24:51]
A
Is what you say.
- [24:52]
B
Let's be blunt. You know, and I've seen our students improve. You know, we had, we have quite a few Chinese students. I saw one of them grow. His thesis film, which we just, he just made was so good. We had a group of executives come in from Alibaba because they were looking for the next generation of Chinese talent. And they said, we want to hire this guy, but he learned that in two years. Would he necessarily have done this on. Yes, he's enormously talented, but it would have been much harder.
- [25:21]
A
Craig, are you convinced? Are you convinced? Should you have gone to graduate film school?
- [25:26]
C
I really Think it just depends on what your goals are, how financially able you are to spend that kind of money. I think for certain cases, I think a lot of the technical stuff that Steven was talking about, sound mixing, cinematography, animation, I think all that is really important.
- [25:40]
A
At least until they're all replaced with AI. True.
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B
Well, they need to know AI.
- [25:45]
A
Sure.
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C
I think there's a separate class of kind of the writer, director, more creative type that is kind of like Stephen said, there are the more entrepreneurial minded people that it will kind of work no matter what. And I do believe that. But what I appreciated out of my undergraduate experience is that it just allowed me to meet people and collaborators, learn how to work with people and find the things I am interested in. And I do think college is great for that.
- [26:08]
B
But Matt, I do want to come down to this question of money. I'm horrified by how much it costs. And every day I ask myself ethically, morally, is it okay for me to be encouraging people to spend this kind of money?
- [26:21]
C
I mean, to be frank, I considered going to grad school and I didn't because of how expensive it was. And I said, I don't need it, I can figure it out without it.
- [26:28]
B
And I was lucky. I won scholarships. But I sat down with a student last week and I said, why do you want to do this? This is a massive amount of money. Is it really going to benefit you? So I think that's a perfectly fair question. And the truth is, as in any profession, there are 10, maybe 20% who happen to be really good and will seize opportunity, will use it. And then the issue is, what about the rest and where did they go? Well, I never directed films, but it helped me enormously know enough to create a career. So I think different types of students can benefit from different things. What we're doing is really putting in very work oriented programs.
- [27:14]
A
By the way, while I have you, I get this question all the time. You invented the Hollywood Reporter roundtable series and appeared on it for many years. You actually were the one who brought me into it. And I now pop up on TikTok. Every once in a while people send things to me from that. In your opinion, what's the best round table that you ever did? Who was on it?
- [27:33]
B
As you know, I wanted to lift your prominence. So we do the round tables going for people who can't see us. Matt is 6 foot 4 and I'm not, so I'd have to get these cushions underneath. If you go and look at the round tables, we look reasonably, but I'VE got like three cushions underneath me.
- [27:51]
A
Yes, but you have presence and a British accent which I cannot match.
- [27:54]
B
You know, the one that was really extraordinary was when Julian. Julian Schnabel flew at Julie Taymor.
- [28:02]
A
Tell that story. That is a fantastic story because this was before video. This is when we were doing these things in a conference room at Hollywood Reporter.
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B
Right. So we brought a few people together, as far as I remember, Julie Taymor, Julian Schnabel. I think Tony Gilroy was there because he called me in shock the next day, and I think I started asking one or two questions and literally minute three, Schnabel says, these are dumb questions.
- [28:29]
A
Yeah. Now, just a little background. Julian Schnabel is a very well known artist in New York. He also has directed films and he directed this film, the Diving Bell and the Butterfly, which. Which was excellent. And he was sort of an outsider to the industry and very much comported himself that way.
- [28:44]
B
Well, he's famously confrontational. He also came in in pajamas and an overcoat, if you remember, as one does.
- [28:51]
A
Yes.
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B
Right. So three minutes in, he says, these are dumb questions. Okay, what would you like to talk about? So he said, I want to talk about authenticity. And my film was authentic because I shot it in French. And then Julie Taymor said, well, you know, I did Frida, and it's still authentic, even though we didn't shoot in Spanish. And then he turned and said, what was the effect of that's why your film sucks. And it was the most astonishing moment. And you're sitting there.
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A
You're sitting between them. Yeah.
- [29:21]
B
You're sitting thinking, what am I going to do? How am I going to handle it?
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A
What did you say?
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B
I shifted the conversation and it didn't go back again, but she was very upset. And. And then Tony Gilroy called me next to all your roundtables like that.
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A
All right, Stephen, thank you very much for coming on the show.
- [29:40]
B
Thanks so much. See you later.
- [29:44]
A
We are back with the call sheet. Craig, what is your relationship to the Rush Hour franchise movies?
- [29:50]
C
I liked growing up. Really funny.
- [29:52]
A
You did? Yeah.
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C
I don't know if I've seen the third one, but I've seen the first many times. I think I've seen the second a couple times.
- [29:59]
A
Yeah. I was never a big fan of these movies. I don't know why. Just kind of passing by. Chris Tucker's funny, but I don't know. The Jackie Chan stuff, Not for me. But you know who it is for? The President. Donald Trump. Very interested in the Rush Hour franchise. Have you been following this saga?
- [30:18]
C
Yes. Is this the ickiest Hollywood story in years?
- [30:22]
A
Oh, there's still a few weeks left in the year. I'm sure that we can get ickier as this Warner Brothers sale unfolds. Today, the Paramount people sent a letter to Warners claiming that the whole process is tilted and rigged and they're being squeezed out. It's. We'll talk about this with Lucas. But yeah, the Rush Hour thing is pretty gross. I mean, basically Brett Ratner, who has been kind of canceled, I'd say definitely canceled in Hollywood over allegations of inappropriate behavior by accidents, pretty heinous allegations. Just to be clear, Ratner has denied those allegations. So take that as you will, but he got this gig directing a Melania Trump documentary for Amazon for which Amazon is paying $40 million, I reported last year. And he's now in Trump world. And the thinking is he got to the President, said, you know what, I'd really like to make Rush Hour 4. Nobody will distribute this movie in Hollywood. You have the ear of the Ellison family right now. So make a little suggestion. Trump apparently did to Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison communicated that to Junior and all of a sudden Paramount has decided to distribute Rush Hour 4. It's being financed independently. This producer, Chirak Bar Aman, is going to raise the financing. My colleague Kim Master said there is Saudi money in that pool of financing. And then Rush Hour four will allegedly happen thanks to Donald Trump. And my prediction is that I think this movie will actually get made. Really, I do. I know there's a lot of skepticism about whether this will fall apart.
- [32:00]
C
Do you think it will only get made if Paramount gets Warner Brothers?
- [32:04]
A
No, no. This is independent of the Warner nonsense.
- [32:09]
C
This is Warner Brothers done to appease Trump. And the only reason to appease Trump is to get Warner Brothers.
- [32:16]
A
Yeah, well, also to curry favor with the studio they already own. I mean, they are, they own CBS and Paramount and they are trying to stay in the good graces of Trump that way. But yes, you're right. They're trying to push this Warner sale through. And it happens to be that this property, Rush Hour is a Warner Brothers property. But Warner's gave permission to this producer, Arthur Sarkissian to shop the project around town. Now they put some onerous terms on it. Had to be a big theatrical release. Warner's gets first dollar gross on it. There's things that made it so it wasn't a popular project financially. It's a one off license where, you know, the benefit would really go back to Warner's cause they have the other titles in the library that would get a boost on home video if this new movie gets made. But the problem was nobody would distribute it. And I think Brett Ratner being involved had a pretty big reason why no one wanted to touch this. Cause no studio executive wants to stand next to that guy on a red carpet.
- [33:14]
C
So how's that going to go?
- [33:15]
A
I think David Ellison, when this movie comes out, he might be sick that day.
- [33:20]
He might be on a joyride trip in his. One of his planes that day.
- [33:24]
C
I got to say, I'm shocked that you think this movie's going to get made. To me, this seems like one of those classic stories that you hear about. In a year from now, this thing will be gone. Like 71 year old Jackie Chan, the $100 million budget that's coming from who knows where. Trump wanting this movie to be made, Ratner directing. Like, none of this feels like it's actually going to happen.
- [33:41]
A
Normally I would agree with you, but it doesn't matter if there is financing lined up. And from everything I have heard and reported, this producer, Chirac, he's got the financing lined up. The whole problem was that nobody would distribute it. So now they have a distributor and that triggers everything. And if you're Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker, why wouldn't you come back? What are they like clamoring for their $5 million paydays elsewhere?
- [34:09]
C
Well, no, but there's also something to be said about them attaching themselves to be in a movie directed by Brett Ratner.
- [34:14]
A
I don't know, man. This is a franchise. Like, this is what they've got. My colleague Kim Masters texted with Brett Ratner and he insisted the budget is more than $100 million for this movie.
- [34:27]
C
Why would he insist that?
- [34:28]
A
Because he wants everybody to know that he's back and that he is directing a movie with a huge budget.
- [34:35]
C
This is horrible. I hate this entire story. I think this is incredibly icky.
- [34:40]
A
It's so Hollywood 2025. I mean, everybody is now just sort of shaking their head and being like, what? I mean, Paramount passed on this project. The co head of Paramount's movie studio when he was at Sony previously, they passed on this project. So, like everybody has passed. Amazon was, which is already in business with Ratner on this Melania doc and presumably would want to kiss Trump's ass even more. They passed on this project, but now the Ellisons, they want to be in Trump's back pocket and this is a good way to get there. The whole thing's sad and gross. But you know what? Hollywood, baby. All right. That's the show for today. I want to thank my guests, Stephen Galloway, producer Craig Horobeck, our editor Jesse Lopez. And I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.