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[00:00]
A
This is Bill Simmons and I want to tell you about my movie podcast, the Rewatchables, where each week I'm joined by ringer movie lovers Chris Ryan, Sean Van, Van Lathan, Kyle Brandt, Mallory Rubin. We have a whole bunch of people on we talk about movies we can't stop rewatching and now you can watch us cover these movies on video in the Spotify app. We have covered over 350 movies, including Heat, Goodfellows, Boogie Nights, Pulp Fiction. We have some real heavy hitters coming up here in 2025. Make sure to follow us on Spotify, where you can watch every new episode. Right now, just head to the Rewatchables on Spotify now on video.
[00:39]
B
This episode is brought to you by AMC Theaters. Experience an unprecedented season of films and earn rewards while you watch with Focus Features in AMC theaters. See Downton Abbey, the Grand Finale, Anemone, Begonia Hamnet and Song Sung Blue. Watch all five and unlock a $200 gift card for exclusive merchandise and be entered to win the ultimate Focus Features Red Carpet Experience. Make it a Focus Features Fall exclusively at AMC Theaters. Visit amctheaters.com focusfeatures to start earning your rewards. No purchase necessary. See Official Rules for details.
[01:17]
A
This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today, subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and more@applecard.com it.
[02:06]
B
Is Thursday, September 18th. If you tuned in to Jimmy Kimmel Live last night and were confused a little when you saw Steve Harvey in an old episode of Celebrity Family Feud, there was a big reason why Kimmel is suspended indefinitely, the result of a pretty wild sequence of events yesterday at Disney. There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of political posturing. So I want to go through exactly what happened, clearly from a business perspective, hopefully with less politics, if that's possible. In Monday's monologue, Kimmel made the following comment about the aftermath of the murder of right wing activist Charlie Kirk.
[02:42]
C
We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
[02:55]
B
Not a great comment from Kimmel. I could see how it will be interpreted as suggesting that the guy who allegedly killed Kirk was a MAGA supporter, but that's not what Kimmel actually said. Regardless, it lit up social media, lots of backlash and Brendan Carr, the FCC chairman, you'll remember him from the whole Paramount sale CBS News fight, he pounced. He went on a right wing influencers podcast yesterday and basically threatened Disney, which owns abc. This is a very, very serious issue right now for Disney, carr said. We can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to take action on Kimmel or there is going to be additional work for the fcc. Ahead inside Disney, the TV chief Dana Walden and her team were freaking out over that car comment told Remember, they're already in the Trump crosshairs over the President's ABC News case, which they settled for $16 million. And Disney was getting complaints from their affiliate groups. One of those groups, NextStar, said it was pulling Kimmel indefinitely. NextStar happens to be in the middle of a $6 billion acquisition of a rival station group, a deal that, yes, would require FCC approval. So Kimmel wanted to address the situation on his show last night, and he and the Disney execs went back and forth on a possible script for that monologue and what it would say. But what Kimmel wanted to do would only inflame the situation, Walden decided. And after what I'm told was a lengthy back and forth with Kimmel, she and CEO Bob Iger then pulled the show. They say it's a temporary suspension until they can figure out a way to bring Kimmel back. But Carr then went on Fox News to declare victory. Last night. Trump celebrated on social media and Kimmel, for his part, has not commented as of this morning. Okay, so much going on there and many, many ramifications. So there's only one guy to bring on to discuss it all. Bill Carter has covered the late night TV wars for decades, most of them at the New York Times, then cnn, and he has his own website now called Late Nighter. We're gonna get into all of it. The sacking of Jimmy Kimmel, the FCC's role, the fear and capitulation to Trump in Hollywood right now and and is there A path back for Kimmel at Disney. From the ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellamy and this is the Town. Okay. We are here with Bill Carter, late night television expert, longtime journalist in the space. Welcome, Bill.
[05:23]
C
Great to be with you, Matt.
[05:24]
B
Okay. Quite a day yesterday.
[05:27]
C
Like none other I can remember.
[05:29]
B
Like none other you can remember. Okay, so what I want to do is I want to first explain the leverage that the FCC and the affiliates have over ABC in this situation. You know, obviously the FCC license the broadcast networks and supposed to ensure that they are being used in the public interest. Nothing in the rules, as far as I know, allows the FCC to punish speech it doesn't like. It's only there to say we are acting in the public interest if there is something that is above and beyond offensive, et cetera. If Kimmel got something wrong on the air, and that's debatable, you correct it and apologize and move on, I would think. But it's kind of, in my opinion, it's kind of ridiculous that we're now policing a comedy show. We know that content based restrictions on speech are presumed unconstitutional under the First Amendment. That is what I learned in law school. And here it seems like a pretty interesting one if it is coming from the fcc. But the affiliates weighed in. So what do you think is the leverage point here?
[06:37]
C
Well, the leverage point is obviously the control of the licenses, which has never been used this way as a bullying stick to make someone, you know, fire someone. Because the person who's headed that government who appointed this FCC commissioner doesn't like the performer. I mean, that's really what's behind this. Because if you look at what Kimmel said, it's just absurd to say which Brendan Carr, the FCC commissioner, said was the sickest conduct possible. I mean, he made a reference sort of to what the suspect in the case. He did nothing to disparage Charlie Kirk in any way. He never said a bad word about him. And then he made a joke about Trump, which he's done every night. And by the way, Matt, the same exact joke was on the Daily show that night. That's an obvious joke because Trump was asked about his emotional state after this murder of his friend and he made a limp response and then talked about the ballroom, which is an obvious thing that a comic is going to make fun of. So there was nothing there.
[07:36]
B
Listen, I disagree a little bit. I think it was a little bit of a misstep. Obviously, this is a hyper sensitive situation. These monologues are written and taped before they air. Lots of People saw this before it aired. And, and you know, I agree with you that it was not what it turned into on right wing social media, which is, you know, saying that Kimmel was disparaging MAGA people and got it wrong and was saying that the shooter was a MAGA supporter. He didn't actually say that, but it was worded in a way that was probably not the most elegant way to word it.
[08:12]
C
Again, again, Matt, if that's the best you can do, how is that worth this reaction? How in God's name is it worth this kind of reaction? Because they're also saying, you know, he ignored all the evidence that, that this guy was the shooter. That all happened the next day. This was taped on Monday, so he didn't have that information when they were doing that. This is a pretext also.
[08:34]
B
It's a comedy show. It's not. It's not the nightly news.
[08:37]
C
Exactly. This is a pretext, man. This is a pretext. This is a guy who was targeted by Donald Trump. He's been targeted by Donald Trump. And this FCC commissioner is completely enthralled to Trump. This is a guy who was going around with a lapel pin that was Trump's head before he was named to the fcc. So he is entirely an agent of the administration.
[08:58]
B
Yeah. And he was openly celebrating. I mean, this was not something where, you know, he was, oh, unfortunately, we have to do this. It was. He was sending around emojis to journalists and he was sending around the meme from the office with everyone doing the pump up thing.
[09:11]
C
Exactly. He had no objective here except to accomplish what he was put in office to do, which is to get rid of critics of Donald Trump. The affiliates are. It's a very interesting situation.
[09:21]
B
Yeah. What about the affiliates here?
[09:23]
C
Well, you know, they have deals pending with the government and that means they have to be careful with what they do. Just like the same thing happened with the Colbert situation. And they want to have the right to expand their number of stations. Right. And they need to change the law, frankly, for that to happen.
[09:39]
B
Yeah. Let's be clear about that, because the rule, I believe, is that you can only own, what is it, 38%, 39%.
[09:44]
C
39%. Yeah.
[09:45]
B
Of the, of the television stations throughout the country. Disney owns about 10 stations. They're owned and operated stations in the big markets like New York, L.A. chicago. But most of the ABC stations are owned by these station groups around the country. And the rule under the FCC has been you cannot own more than 39%. But people believe that that rule is outdated. The Trump administration is said to be friendlier towards these mergers. The Internet has sort of blown up the whole reason for the rules. And this merger that is pending between nexstar and Tenga would create the largest station group. It's a $6 billion deal. And the government, the SEC, has to essentially change the rules to allow that to happen.
[10:33]
C
So.
[10:33]
B
So nexstar has a significant incentive to please the administration right now. And lo and behold, they were apparently the first one to say, oh no, no, no, we're taking him off the air, we're suspending this indefinitely. And they put out a statement saying that this was above and beyond conduct and they cannot stand for it, essentially mirroring what Brendan Carr was saying.
[10:56]
C
And you can summarize all of that with one word, which is leverage. That gives the FCC enormous leverage with these stations. Sinclair wants to expand as well, and they jumped right in too. Sinclair's already a very conservative organization.
[11:09]
B
Yeah, they want ABC to go further. They want a Charlie Kirk special produced by ABC News. They want donations to charities that support his causes.
[11:18]
A
Exactly.
[11:19]
C
So we could get into why this is extraordinary in terms of Charlie Kirk himself. Because, you know, they're. Charlie Kirk has people who criticize him pretty severely and he's being lionized tremendously. But that's beside the point. All of that's beside the point. This is a story about government doing something it has no business doing. It has no business doing this. We don't allow people to police speech in this country. We haven't until now. But this is what this is doing. They're basically coming out and saying he's been a critic of the President. The President is unhappy. We're going to figure out a way to get rid of this guy and now we have leverage and now we're going to do it. That's what it looks like to me and to basically everybody.
[12:00]
B
What about the argument? Listen, I agree with you there, but I just want to play devil's advocate a little bit and say what about the argument that these are the public airwaves and for decades now they have been controlled in the late night space by comedians, be it Colbert, Kimmel, Seth Meyers, Fallon's a little more down the middle. But they've been controlled by comedians that use their time, their space specifically to attack Republicans and Donald Trump and that the FCC is merely trying to even the playing field here. And by going after these people that have been so one sided in their comedy, they're doing the government's work.
[12:45]
C
Do you remember when there was the fair speech clause that existed. You had to have both sides.
[12:51]
B
Yeah. Equal time. There used to be. I mean, there's a version of it in politics, but there used to be that you had to have equal time on the broadcast network. So for political views, that's gone.
[12:58]
C
And you know why it's gone? Because right wing radio hosts were incredibly aggressive in trying to get rid of that. And now what they're that argument is saying, well, they shouldn't have all these comics having one point of view. Well, they got rid of that whole notion. There's no way that you can say to a comic that you've hired to do this job. And by the way, you got to tell jokes about Democrats in equal number because they made jokes about Joe Biden, they talked about his age and how goofy he was all the time. Not with this kind of level of passion. I agree with you. They're very passionate about this. This is something that they care about a lot.
[13:34]
B
Yeah, they go after Trump. These shows, Colbert and Kimmel in particular, go after Trump way more.
[13:40]
C
And that happens to be their prevailing point of view. They are entitled to that point of view. We have a free country. It's free speech. If those companies felt they were not, that was not fair or whatever, they could have done something about it. But they didn't because they hired those guys to be artists and that's what the artists do. They didn't step in and say, you have to do this or you have to do that. And I don't see any reason why that would bring the FCC in anyway. The FCC can't monitor shows and say, no, I'm sorry, that's too politically left. We have to. They want to do that. I think they want to do that. And I think we'll see that in other ways, especially if this leverage works for them.
[14:18]
B
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about Disney. What is Disney so afraid of here? Because if I'm Bob Iger and Dana Walden at Disney, I see where this goes and I'm gaming this out. And people are canceling Disney because they're so upset with this. This is not going to be a one day story.
[14:38]
C
No.
[14:38]
B
So why did they make the decision to pull him when we know behind the scenes they were trying to figure out a statement that he would make on the air and how he would address it. He wanted to do one thing. They were not comfortable with what he wanted to do. So why do this? What are they so afraid of?
[14:56]
C
Well, I think they're afraid of the economic fallout. It could be an enormous economic fallout for them.
[15:02]
B
You mean the NFL acquisition? They just bought the NFL Network assets. And yes, that is something that. It's kind of arguable whether the FCC has to get involved in that. I think it probably will. But you're just saying they do not want to be a target. None of these media companies want to be a target right now, which is why they're all settling. I would argue that their settlements, and Igers in particular at the beginning of all this, has laid the groundwork Absolutely. For these guys to get extra aggressive. It was sort of 100% predictable. And I think even Donald Trump supporters would say that he is kind of a bully when he wants something, and they like that about him. But in this sense, if I'm Bob Iger and I agree to pay $16 million to settle a pretty frivolous ABC News lawsuit, you got to know that when you give someone an inch and he's a bully, he's going to keep going. And this is not gonna end.
[15:54]
C
Everybody said it at the time. That's exactly what everybody said. And you have to know this guy. You have to know Trump. You have to know the way he functions. And he has total power now because his party, which you would think there have to be some people in the party who say, wait a minute, wait a minute. You can't infringe free speech that way. They are enthralled him. They won't bet.
[16:14]
B
They won't buck him up, including Brendan Carr, by the way. Everyone's recirculating, circulating the old tweets from him, talking about free speech. And even Joe Biden knows this. And you can't punish speech and yada yada. It doesn't. Nothing matters. Doesn't matter.
[16:27]
C
He said it in the context of comedy. He said that Joe Biden said these comedians have to be able to make fun of any. He said, yes, they do. That's what free speech is. And now it's different because it's Donald Trump. Everything is different because of Donald Trump. How many times have we said that over the last 10 years?
[16:44]
B
So people have asked me, why didn't Disney just keep airing Kimmel, but on their own stations and on Disney and Hulu? Why did it have to be pull him indefinitely?
[16:57]
C
Well, I think they were right up against the deadline of what they were going to do last night. Yeah, I think clearly that could be something they're talking about. I mean, I don't think they want to go down that road for all kinds of reasons.
[17:09]
B
Well, Dana thought That his apology or lack of apology or response would have made the matter worse. And they don't want this mushrooming into World War three with the government.
[17:21]
C
I think that's right. But that's the question about whether they go around them this way and say, well, we're going to use it on our stations, et cetera. The government will say they're licensed too. Those stations are licensed. So, you know, that CAR basically said, we can do it the easy way or the hard way. Right, right. Which is as mob a statement as you could possibly have, probably. And he'll go after the ABC licenses and he won't win that either. That's another one he can't win. There's no way you can pull a license on this basis.
[17:50]
B
It seems like a content based restriction on free speech to me. I am not a. I am not a telecommunications lawyer, but it seems to me that this would not last. But you know, what do you want to get into litigation with the President? This is the entire thing that they. That. That they settled for.
[18:08]
C
And he will be in public assailing you every day. And he has his own media to back him up.
[18:14]
B
Yeah, and it's Disney. And they know. They're trying desperately to remain apolitical. And Iger wants so badly to go back to the 1990s and 2000s when you could be a brand that appealed to everybody. And they have theme parks and they have movies that want to appeal to everybody. And they don't want to be adversarial with the President because he will use it to drive a wedge through their customers.
[18:40]
C
He'll suggest boycotts with their theme parks. Let's face it, they'll do that. So they are in a box, Matt. They are in a terrible, terrible box because let's say they decide to cancel Kimmel. Right. Well, I think then the entire creative community is going to completely go up in arms about this.
[18:55]
B
Well, last night, SAG and the Writers Guild both put out statements just ripping Disney for this.
[19:02]
C
And that will happen. And every comedian is gonna go after them. And the artists that might make movies may go after them. It's a very tight situation they're in. And I have been thinking about a solution. I don't know what it would be, except for Kimmel to come on and do something that sounds apologetic and for them to say, if you still are against this, then it's obvious it's not about this issue because he's made his apology and you still won't accept it. I mean, Sinclair, by the way, has Already said it doesn't matter what he says. They're gonna pull their stations off his show. So, I mean, that's the only thing I can see at this point other than them somebody in the company saying, we have to fight now. We gave in the last time. If we give in again, it'll never end. We have to fight now.
[19:44]
B
And if Iger doesn't do that, do you think his legacy is tarnished?
[19:48]
C
Big time.
[19:49]
B
Don't forget, he's gotten a lot of journalism awards. The ABC News building in New York is called the Robert A. Iger Building now. And you've got this guy that. Who is not exactly standing up for his people's journalistic principles.
[20:03]
C
Yes. And look, and I've known Bob forever, right. And I have a lot of respect for Bob and I think he has done. He has stood up in other times. But this is the biggest challenge. It will tarnish his legacy big time. I mean, we don't know where this whole thing is going. Matt Trump has now said he's going after the NBC guys. I mean, you know, if Saturday Night Live keeps making fun of them, he'll go after them. It's not going to end. Somebody has to put their foot down and fight, it seems like, or he'll roll over all of them. And it's easy for me to say and for you to say, anybody outside.
[20:35]
B
To say, yeah, well, I said that about the. In the whole Paramount situation. Said it's easy for all these people in the media to wag their fingers at David Ellison and Sherry Redstone. You don't have a $8 billion transaction that is contingent on the President's lackey giving it approval. And you know, by the way, David Ellison probably sending Bob Iger a fruit basket today. All the attention on CBS News is gone away now.
[21:00]
C
It's your baby to handle.
[21:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. But Disney doesn't have a specific $8 billion deal. They just have a general brand and government relations problem.
[21:13]
C
Yes. So in essence, they could attempt to write it out. They could.
[21:18]
B
I think the New York Times will. The New York Times got sued for $15 billion this week, and I think they will. That is much more than New York Times brand. They stand up for free speech. They have many, many lawyers. So I think they will.
[21:31]
C
But will Disney, Disney, as you pointed out, their appeal is across a broad range, an incredibly broad range. Sports and music and entertainment and theme parks, all of those things. So they would take an enormous economic hit.
[21:45]
B
And the fallback for them is always make it go away. Just, just de Escalate. And I don't think that's possible with these guys. We. Iger tried it and it led to this.
[21:55]
C
Exactly. That's my point. I think somebody is going to have to stop or it's going to be everybody. He'll roll over everybody. I don't know if Iger will be the one to say, I got to fight now. I got to. We're going to take our company and do what we can. And they can do certain things. I mean. I mean, they could do crazy stuff if they wanted. They could say to Nextar and Sinclair, well, you know, you don't get Monday Night Football.
[22:17]
B
Yeah. What leverage does Disney have here?
[22:19]
C
That's. That's what I'm thinking.
[22:20]
B
That's their leverage. They have programming on ABC that is very valuable to these networks. Now, you know, the overriding economic thing here is if this were the heyday of late night and these shows were delivering 8 million viewers a night, maybe it's a different conversation with some of these station groups. But when you're delivering 2, 3 million viewers a night, you have less leverage there. And maybe celebrity Family Feud reruns do rate as much as Jimmy Kimmel Live. We don't. I haven't seen the ratings yet, but the money that ABC is making on Kimmel is less. It's not a Colbert situation. We have been told that Kimmel is profitable. He does a lot more for the network than just hosting this show. He did the Oscars, he does Millionaire, he does game shows. He is like the face of the brand.
[23:07]
C
Exactly.
[23:08]
B
But it's not the heyday. And Kimmel has been talking about retirement anyways for many years. So let's get to the Kimmel question. Yes, obviously this all happened because he did not want to apologize overtly and do something a little more earnest that the ABC people wanted him to. How do you see this playing out? Do you apologize if you're him?
[23:31]
C
I want to correct you a little bit because the station people didn't know whether he was going to apologize or not.
[23:36]
B
Right. But what I'm talking about is the conversations within Disney, Dana Walden and Rob Mills, the head of Late Night, and they were all going back and forth during the day, is my understanding and trying to figure out how to address this on the show. Kimmel wanted to address this on the show, and ultimately Disney decided not to do do that. So what do you do? Is the trust there forever broken? Can this be resolved?
[24:03]
C
Unless they really want to be brave, it's going to be very hard. And Kimmel has to say something. He'd have to make some concession. Obviously, he has to make some concession. I personally think that's a little strange because it's not really a grotesque situation. Remember when Letterman made the comments about Sarah Palin's daughter and then they were pretty egregious and he came on the air and really kind of abjectly apologized about it. Right. The FCC did not get involved in that. There was no fc. It was just, hey, that was. That was over the line. This is such a different case. I mean, it really is.
[24:35]
B
Yeah. Kimmel probably would. Wouldn't do anything differently. I mean, I. I disagree with him.
[24:40]
C
A little bit, but a little bit.
[24:41]
B
He will probably say, this is what I said, and I will have to stand by it.
[24:44]
C
And I agree with you that he should have been realized. He should have realized they're gunning for me. I got to be careful, you know that. I mean, that should have been in his head. That's the one thing I would say. He should have said. I'm going to be very careful with this whole Kirk thing because they're using it as leverage against a lot of other companies.
[24:59]
B
Yeah.
[24:59]
C
But you know, Jimmy. Jimmy's also. I mean, how abject can he be? I mean, he. He can say, you know, I never meant this. I never meant that. I never meant this. And I. And I believe in free speech or whatever. It's not going to work for those people. It's not going to.
[25:13]
B
No. There'll be something else. They have. They have their microscope on him now, and it will be something else. He does that. They will come after him again. Figure out another way.
[25:26]
A
This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26. A favorite of my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stack this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W. So now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game. Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I. When I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my moon and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are. How they really look like NBA players to 2K26 is finally here. And yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything. This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin, Dwight Manfredi, in the original hit series Tulsa King, streaming September 21, exclusively on Paramount. This season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, he. He faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight for everything he's built. Stream the new season of Tulsa King, Sunday, September 21, exclusively on Paramount. Plus learn more@paramountplus.com.
[26:54]
B
So if you're him, do you just go out a martyr? Do you just say, okay, I'm going to pull a Colbert and go on a victory tour, start my ringer podcast or do whatever you want to do and be a martyr for free speech? I mean, I just interviewed Lorne Michaels, and Lorne made a very interesting comment to me about this stuff. He was referencing the Smothers Brothers situation that happened in the 60s, and those guys were pulled off the air, and they were kind of went out as a martyr on there. And then he's like, you know what? You gotta keep the show. It's very easy to be a martyr and to kind of get the round of applause and go on a victory tour, but then you don't have your platform, and you will ultimately risk. I'm paraphrasing what he said, and that's kind of been his guiding light on the things to fight and the things to not fight is keep the show, keep the platform.
[27:47]
C
He felt that way about Conan, too. I remember talking to him about Conan, too. If I was Jimmy, this would make me want to keep the show more.
[27:54]
B
Oh, it would.
[27:55]
C
Yes, it would. Because you don't want to be driven out of the business by this guy, I think.
[28:00]
B
Even if it means you've got to apologize.
[28:02]
C
Yeah. In some fashion. You have to apologize and then live to fight another day, I mean, I think. And you have to not then back off and never make a joke about Trump. You have to still act the way you want.
[28:12]
B
Colbert's been doing Trump stuff. You know, he's, he's, he knows he's off the air, but he's not.
[28:17]
C
But he didn't get taken off the air abruptly like, it's over like this.
[28:21]
B
Yeah.
[28:22]
C
So he has a year. He basically. They gave him a year to say what he wants to say. For Kimmel, it would be like, we're shutting you off. And now he would land somewhere if he wanted to, obviously. But I think if he can find a way. A thread's a needle. He has to thread pretty tight. But if he can find a way to not feel humiliated by saying, look, I did something that I know has been questioned, if people are upset about it, then I want to be apologetic to them or something and make it look sincere. I think he would be sincere and then try to brazen it out. Now, I don't know what abc, how strongly they'll back him. I just don't know because I don't think those stations are going to come back.
[28:59]
B
You don't? So there's a scenario where Jimmy Kimmel Live continues, but in only 70% of the country.
[29:05]
C
Yeah, that's what I think.
[29:07]
B
And it's interesting because I'm thinking back to the Bill Maher situation on Politically Incorrect. For those who don't remember, Bill Maher was the host of Politically Incorrect on abc and his show was taken off the air after he made some comments right after 911 where he said the terrorists were not cowardly because they were carrying out suicide attacks. And it was a remark that was in direct contrast to what another Republican president, George W. Bush, had said. You know, the terrorists were cowards. ABC just cut bait with that one. I wasn't covering this stuff then, but I assume the affiliates were going nuts over that.
[29:42]
C
And the advertisers. The advertisers went nuts about that.
[29:46]
B
Yeah. We haven't heard from the advertisers in this situation.
[29:48]
C
That's interesting. But there was no government enforcement saying, if you don't do this, you'll lose your license. That didn't happen. This is the only time something like this happened where there was a. The thumb of government being put on the head of a network to say, you do what we want or we will take away your business. We'll take away your business. That is totally authoritarianism, by the way. I mean, you know, that script is played out everywhere.
[30:13]
B
Wait until Disney does bring Kimmel back. And then Trump and Brendan Carr say, we are going to monitor every single advertiser and we are going to make life difficult for Procter and Gamble and for Molson, Coors and for all of these companies that are advertising on this show.
[30:28]
C
Yeah, and that's why I said it is a box that they're in. But if they don't do it, if somebody does do it, then all. Then there'll be no recourse for anybody, anybody who wants to stand up. You just don't have anybody backing you. If the advertisers all cave on them, then It's. It's another whole segment that. That is under control of the government. You know, like, how much are we going to see here?
[30:51]
B
And it's so funny because it's not a secret. It's not like Trump would say exactly this. If we had him on the show, he would say, yes, we're going after these people that are very mean to me that have just. They're. They're sick. They're disgusting. It's like he's writing. He's writing the brief for the Supreme Court.
[31:10]
C
Well, he's throwing in Fallon and Myers was totally gratuitous. They had nothing to do with this situation. But, hey, NBC, we need you to act now. I mean, it's just. I mean, he's open about it. There's no hiding what he's doing. He wants power over every aspect of American life, basically. He takes over the Kennedy Center. He takes over anything he wants. You know, And I think he basically, when he got his way with 60 Minutes and Stephanopoulos, I think it was just like, so these guys are never going to step in my way. I'm just going to keep going.
[31:46]
B
Yeah. I think. Big misstep by Iger.
[31:49]
C
Yep.
[31:50]
B
I know he was afraid of pursuing that case and potentially getting a negative ruling at the Supreme Court that would overturn New York Times versus Sullivan, which is very key to free speech rights. But it opened the door here, and it's not going to end. I mean, best case scenario, this goes on for another year and a couple months until the Congress switches over and there is some kind of check on it. But worst case scenario, for these media companies, this goes on for the next three years.
[32:19]
C
Well. Or longer. Well, I don't count on this election either, because I said this a long time ago and people sneered at me. I don't think it's guaranteed there'll be an election.
[32:29]
B
Oh, you're one of those guys. You're the Bill Maher camp. You think that this is a permanent authoritarian government. I'm not going that far.
[32:36]
C
Well, I said that before, but look what they're doing with the redistricting and all that. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm just saying it's definitely in their heads. It's in their heads, and they know, because if they do get the Congress, they'll be able to block him in some ways and they'll probably impeach him again, which, you know, will be something he will go crazy about.
[32:55]
B
All right, so forget the politics for this point. We are A business podcast. And we obsess over the Disney succession issue. Dana Walden, does this hurt her chances of taking over for Iger? Does it help it if she manages this? Does it help it?
[33:10]
C
Enormously, in my opinion. Enormously.
[33:13]
B
Why?
[33:13]
C
Because I don't think they've ever faced anything like this.
[33:16]
B
Oh, you. Do you think this is a existential Disney future of Disney questions?
[33:21]
C
Absolutely. I mean, we've just said if they fire him, they will have caved and nothing. They have no way to stand up and the creative community will react against them. And there's a huge domino effect from that. If they stand by him, they lose huge amounts of money, and there's a domino effect from that. So if you can skate in some way, if you figure it out, a way to skate through that, that would, that would be an achievement. They'd write in Dana.
[33:46]
B
Yeah, Dana deserves to be CEO. She can manage this.
[33:49]
C
Absolutely.
[33:50]
B
Yeah. I don't. You know, I think you may be overstating the internal pressure from the creative community. Everyone had sort of sat on their hands over the Stephanopoulos settlement. And Iger has done a lot of things that 10 years ago would have sparked outrage within the community. You know, editing the transgender stuff out of Pixar content, walking back the DEI stuff to appease Trump, you know, other things. There's kind of a quasi mandate that we are not here to push an agenda. We are here to entertain and people. Iger said that, and people kind of know what he means. It's, you know, it's. And I think there would have been more pushback in the, in the past, but we haven't really seen it throughout the community, at least not publicly in the way that we saw it with the whole Florida don't say gay thing with Bob Chapek, where the Pixar people went nuts. So I don't know how much people are going to speak out against him.
[34:45]
C
I agree with you that the community may be just as cowed as everyone else at some point. And they are all self interested, obviously, that's true. But this is materially different from anything else that's happened. This is the literal government shutting down the free speech of an artist that is employed by the network. It's never happened this way before. This is. And we've. And it's part of this whole rolling ball that's coming downhill at everybody. And I mean, I don't know how far the community will go. I mean, and maybe Disney will say that we're not as afraid of them as we are of these guys, you know.
[35:24]
B
Well, I appreciate you coming on. I am looking forward to you and I hosting a podcast on the White House lawn to talk about how great the American president is. And we will both be very successful and get a lot of promotion from the fcc.
[35:37]
C
Yeah. All right.
[35:39]
B
Thanks, Bill.
[35:39]
C
Good to be with you.
[35:41]
B
All right, no call sheet today. That is the show. I want to thank my guest, Bill Carter, producer Craig Horbeck, artist Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.

Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary: Jimmy Kimmel vs. the FCC: Can Disney Escape This Mess?

Podcast: The Town with Matthew Belloni
Host: Matthew Belloni (The Ringer, Puck)
Guest: Bill Carter (Late Night TV Expert, Journalist)
Date: September 18, 2025

Overview

This episode dives deep into the sudden, indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel following comments made on his late-night show about the murder of right-wing activist Charlie Kirk. The situation spiraled due to political backlash, FCC involvement, and subsequent pressure on Disney (ABC’s parent company) from government and affiliate groups. Host Matt Belloni brings in late-night TV authority Bill Carter to unpack the business, legal, and cultural ramifications for Disney—and the entertainment industry at large.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Sparked the Kimmel Suspension?

[02:06–02:54]

Kimmel made a controversial remark in his Monday monologue, interpreted by some as tying the alleged killer of Charlie Kirk to MAGA supporters—though, as Belloni and Carter note, he never actually said this outright.
Social media backlash was immediate; FCC chairman Brendan Carr publicly threatened Disney/ABC, suggesting the network "can do it the easy way or the hard way."

Quote:

"We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them..." — Jimmy Kimmel monologue, quoted by Belloni [02:42]

2. Affiliate Pressure and FCC Leverage

[05:28–11:08]

Disney's affiliates, especially Nexstar, faced their own FCC approvals (notably a pending $6 billion merger)—giving them powerful incentives to distance themselves from controversy.
FCC's power is rooted in its ability to grant or revoke broadcast licenses, an authority now being leveraged—unprecedentedly—as a political tool.

Quote:

"The leverage point is obviously the control of the licenses, which has never been used this way as a bullying stick to make someone, you know, fire someone." — Bill Carter [06:36]

3. The First Amendment and Comedy’s Role

[07:36–14:18]

Belloni and Carter argue that policing late-night comedy for political speech sets a chilling precedent, violating the intent of free-expression protections.
There’s no legal basis for FCC intervention in content unless it rises to the level of obscenity.

Quote:

"It's a comedy show. It's not. It's not the nightly news." — Matt Belloni [08:34]

Insight:
Carter suggests the situation is merely "pretext" for silencing dissenting voices critical of the administration.

4. Disney’s Dilemma: Economic Fallout vs. Cultural Credibility

[14:18–21:01]

Belloni posits Disney’s primary fear lies in economic fallout—advertising losses, regulatory blowback, and reputational harm, especially after other high-profile legal settlements.
Carter and Belloni debate whether CEO Bob Iger’s pattern of settling claims has emboldened further bullying.

Quote:

"If I'm Bob Iger and I agree to pay $16 million to settle a pretty frivolous ABC News lawsuit, you got to know that when you give someone an inch and he's a bully, he's going to keep going." — Matt Belloni [15:01]

5. Creative Community & Advertiser Response

[18:40–19:43], [29:42–30:13]

There’s mounting tension between Disney and Hollywood’s creative workforce, with unions (SAG, WGA) condemning the decision to suspend Kimmel.
Carter warns of a domino effect: if Disney fully capitulates, artists, writers, and eventually advertisers may rebel—unless, of course, intimidation works.

Quote:

"If they fire him, the entire creative community is going to completely go up in arms about this." — Bill Carter [18:40]
“There was no government enforcement saying, if you don't do this, you'll lose your license. That didn't happen. This is the only time something like this happened…” — Bill Carter [29:48]

6. What’s Next for Jimmy Kimmel?

[23:06–28:58]

Kimmel has choices: apologize and return (possibly with diminished reach), refuse and become a free-speech martyr, or find an alternative platform.
Carter draws parallels with the Smothers Brothers and Bill Maher, who were ousted over controversial comments, but warns this is different because direct government pressure is involved.

Quote:

"If I was Jimmy, this would make me want to keep the show more... Because you don't want to be driven out of the business by this guy." — Bill Carter [27:47]

Notable Moment:
Carter suggests that if Kimmel does return, he might only be seen on a fraction of ABC affiliates, echoing past situations where controversial hosts lost coverage.

7. Business Stakes for Disney Leadership

[32:54–34:45]

The way Disney navigates this crisis could prove existential. Success could catapult Dana Walden to CEO, but a misstep could irrevocably tarnish Iger’s legacy.
Belloni notes that Disney’s past willingness to compromise creative stands has already frayed morale—and now the studio faces a Rubicon situation.

Quote:

“This is the literal government shutting down the free speech of an artist that is employed by the network. It’s never happened this way before.” — Bill Carter [34:45]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On FCC threatening Disney:

"Carr basically said, we can do it the easy way or the hard way. Right, right. Which is as mob a statement as you could possibly have, probably." — Bill Carter [17:09]
On advertiser intimidation:

“Wait until Disney does bring Kimmel back. And then Trump and Brendan Carr say, we are going to monitor every single advertiser and we are going to make life difficult for Procter and Gamble...” — Matt Belloni [30:13]
On artistic freedom:

"You can't say to a comic that you've hired... Okay, you gotta tell jokes about Democrats in equal number. They made jokes about Joe Biden... Not with this kind of level of passion. I agree with you." — Bill Carter [12:58]
On Disney's existential challenge:

"You have to know Trump. You have to know the way he functions. And he has total power now because his party... won't buck him up." — Bill Carter [15:54]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[02:06] - Context for Kimmel’s comments, immediate fallout
[05:28] - FCC and affiliate leverage explained
[07:36] - First Amendment, FCC overreach, pretext for censorship
[14:18] - Disney's motives and economic fears
[18:40] - Creative community reactions and risks
[23:06] - Kimmel's possible responses and historical parallel
[27:47] - Discussion of martyrdom vs. returning to the show
[29:42] - The Bill Maher precedent and importance of advertiser response
[32:54] - Leadership stakes: implications for Iger and Walden
[34:45] - Discussion about systemic, industry-wide impacts

Tone & Language

The conversation is urgent, pointed, and deeply informed by behind-the-scenes industry knowledge.
Both Belloni and Carter adopt a critical, sometimes exasperated, tone, lamenting the shift from business risk to outright governmental intimidation.
The dialogue is candid, with both sharing personal reactions and broader cultural anxieties.

This summary distills the most important analysis, quotes, and moments from a jam-packed conversation about the Kimmel incident—illuminating how a late-night monologue has become a fault line for politics, business, and free speech at Disney and beyond.

Loading summary

Transcript121 lines

[00:00]
A
This is Bill Simmons and I want to tell you about my movie podcast, the Rewatchables, where each week I'm joined by ringer movie lovers Chris Ryan, Sean Van, Van Lathan, Kyle Brandt, Mallory Rubin. We have a whole bunch of people on we talk about movies we can't stop rewatching and now you can watch us cover these movies on video in the Spotify app. We have covered over 350 movies, including Heat, Goodfellows, Boogie Nights, Pulp Fiction. We have some real heavy hitters coming up here in 2025. Make sure to follow us on Spotify, where you can watch every new episode. Right now, just head to the Rewatchables on Spotify now on video.
[00:39]
B
This episode is brought to you by AMC Theaters. Experience an unprecedented season of films and earn rewards while you watch with Focus Features in AMC theaters. See Downton Abbey, the Grand Finale, Anemone, Begonia Hamnet and Song Sung Blue. Watch all five and unlock a $200 gift card for exclusive merchandise and be entered to win the ultimate Focus Features Red Carpet Experience. Make it a Focus Features Fall exclusively at AMC Theaters. Visit amctheaters.com focusfeatures to start earning your rewards. No purchase necessary. See Official Rules for details.
[01:17]
A
This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple Card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today, subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 Terms and more@applecard.com it.
[02:06]
B
Is Thursday, September 18th. If you tuned in to Jimmy Kimmel Live last night and were confused a little when you saw Steve Harvey in an old episode of Celebrity Family Feud, there was a big reason why Kimmel is suspended indefinitely, the result of a pretty wild sequence of events yesterday at Disney. There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of political posturing. So I want to go through exactly what happened, clearly from a business perspective, hopefully with less politics, if that's possible. In Monday's monologue, Kimmel made the following comment about the aftermath of the murder of right wing activist Charlie Kirk.
[02:42]
C
We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it.
[02:55]
B
Not a great comment from Kimmel. I could see how it will be interpreted as suggesting that the guy who allegedly killed Kirk was a MAGA supporter, but that's not what Kimmel actually said. Regardless, it lit up social media, lots of backlash and Brendan Carr, the FCC chairman, you'll remember him from the whole Paramount sale CBS News fight, he pounced. He went on a right wing influencers podcast yesterday and basically threatened Disney, which owns abc. This is a very, very serious issue right now for Disney, carr said. We can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to take action on Kimmel or there is going to be additional work for the fcc. Ahead inside Disney, the TV chief Dana Walden and her team were freaking out over that car comment told Remember, they're already in the Trump crosshairs over the President's ABC News case, which they settled for $16 million. And Disney was getting complaints from their affiliate groups. One of those groups, NextStar, said it was pulling Kimmel indefinitely. NextStar happens to be in the middle of a $6 billion acquisition of a rival station group, a deal that, yes, would require FCC approval. So Kimmel wanted to address the situation on his show last night, and he and the Disney execs went back and forth on a possible script for that monologue and what it would say. But what Kimmel wanted to do would only inflame the situation, Walden decided. And after what I'm told was a lengthy back and forth with Kimmel, she and CEO Bob Iger then pulled the show. They say it's a temporary suspension until they can figure out a way to bring Kimmel back. But Carr then went on Fox News to declare victory. Last night. Trump celebrated on social media and Kimmel, for his part, has not commented as of this morning. Okay, so much going on there and many, many ramifications. So there's only one guy to bring on to discuss it all. Bill Carter has covered the late night TV wars for decades, most of them at the New York Times, then cnn, and he has his own website now called Late Nighter. We're gonna get into all of it. The sacking of Jimmy Kimmel, the FCC's role, the fear and capitulation to Trump in Hollywood right now and and is there A path back for Kimmel at Disney. From the ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellamy and this is the Town. Okay. We are here with Bill Carter, late night television expert, longtime journalist in the space. Welcome, Bill.
[05:23]
C
Great to be with you, Matt.
[05:24]
B
Okay. Quite a day yesterday.
[05:27]
C
Like none other I can remember.
[05:29]
B
Like none other you can remember. Okay, so what I want to do is I want to first explain the leverage that the FCC and the affiliates have over ABC in this situation. You know, obviously the FCC license the broadcast networks and supposed to ensure that they are being used in the public interest. Nothing in the rules, as far as I know, allows the FCC to punish speech it doesn't like. It's only there to say we are acting in the public interest if there is something that is above and beyond offensive, et cetera. If Kimmel got something wrong on the air, and that's debatable, you correct it and apologize and move on, I would think. But it's kind of, in my opinion, it's kind of ridiculous that we're now policing a comedy show. We know that content based restrictions on speech are presumed unconstitutional under the First Amendment. That is what I learned in law school. And here it seems like a pretty interesting one if it is coming from the fcc. But the affiliates weighed in. So what do you think is the leverage point here?
[06:37]
C
Well, the leverage point is obviously the control of the licenses, which has never been used this way as a bullying stick to make someone, you know, fire someone. Because the person who's headed that government who appointed this FCC commissioner doesn't like the performer. I mean, that's really what's behind this. Because if you look at what Kimmel said, it's just absurd to say which Brendan Carr, the FCC commissioner, said was the sickest conduct possible. I mean, he made a reference sort of to what the suspect in the case. He did nothing to disparage Charlie Kirk in any way. He never said a bad word about him. And then he made a joke about Trump, which he's done every night. And by the way, Matt, the same exact joke was on the Daily show that night. That's an obvious joke because Trump was asked about his emotional state after this murder of his friend and he made a limp response and then talked about the ballroom, which is an obvious thing that a comic is going to make fun of. So there was nothing there.
[07:36]
B
Listen, I disagree a little bit. I think it was a little bit of a misstep. Obviously, this is a hyper sensitive situation. These monologues are written and taped before they air. Lots of People saw this before it aired. And, and you know, I agree with you that it was not what it turned into on right wing social media, which is, you know, saying that Kimmel was disparaging MAGA people and got it wrong and was saying that the shooter was a MAGA supporter. He didn't actually say that, but it was worded in a way that was probably not the most elegant way to word it.
[08:12]
C
Again, again, Matt, if that's the best you can do, how is that worth this reaction? How in God's name is it worth this kind of reaction? Because they're also saying, you know, he ignored all the evidence that, that this guy was the shooter. That all happened the next day. This was taped on Monday, so he didn't have that information when they were doing that. This is a pretext also.
[08:34]
B
It's a comedy show. It's not. It's not the nightly news.
[08:37]
C
Exactly. This is a pretext, man. This is a pretext. This is a guy who was targeted by Donald Trump. He's been targeted by Donald Trump. And this FCC commissioner is completely enthralled to Trump. This is a guy who was going around with a lapel pin that was Trump's head before he was named to the fcc. So he is entirely an agent of the administration.
[08:58]
B
Yeah. And he was openly celebrating. I mean, this was not something where, you know, he was, oh, unfortunately, we have to do this. It was. He was sending around emojis to journalists and he was sending around the meme from the office with everyone doing the pump up thing.
[09:11]
C
Exactly. He had no objective here except to accomplish what he was put in office to do, which is to get rid of critics of Donald Trump. The affiliates are. It's a very interesting situation.
[09:21]
B
Yeah. What about the affiliates here?
[09:23]
C
Well, you know, they have deals pending with the government and that means they have to be careful with what they do. Just like the same thing happened with the Colbert situation. And they want to have the right to expand their number of stations. Right. And they need to change the law, frankly, for that to happen.
[09:39]
B
Yeah. Let's be clear about that, because the rule, I believe, is that you can only own, what is it, 38%, 39%.
[09:44]
C
39%. Yeah.
[09:45]
B
Of the, of the television stations throughout the country. Disney owns about 10 stations. They're owned and operated stations in the big markets like New York, L.A. chicago. But most of the ABC stations are owned by these station groups around the country. And the rule under the FCC has been you cannot own more than 39%. But people believe that that rule is outdated. The Trump administration is said to be friendlier towards these mergers. The Internet has sort of blown up the whole reason for the rules. And this merger that is pending between nexstar and Tenga would create the largest station group. It's a $6 billion deal. And the government, the SEC, has to essentially change the rules to allow that to happen.
[10:33]
C
So.
[10:33]
B
So nexstar has a significant incentive to please the administration right now. And lo and behold, they were apparently the first one to say, oh no, no, no, we're taking him off the air, we're suspending this indefinitely. And they put out a statement saying that this was above and beyond conduct and they cannot stand for it, essentially mirroring what Brendan Carr was saying.
[10:56]
C
And you can summarize all of that with one word, which is leverage. That gives the FCC enormous leverage with these stations. Sinclair wants to expand as well, and they jumped right in too. Sinclair's already a very conservative organization.
[11:09]
B
Yeah, they want ABC to go further. They want a Charlie Kirk special produced by ABC News. They want donations to charities that support his causes.
[11:18]
A
Exactly.
[11:19]
C
So we could get into why this is extraordinary in terms of Charlie Kirk himself. Because, you know, they're. Charlie Kirk has people who criticize him pretty severely and he's being lionized tremendously. But that's beside the point. All of that's beside the point. This is a story about government doing something it has no business doing. It has no business doing this. We don't allow people to police speech in this country. We haven't until now. But this is what this is doing. They're basically coming out and saying he's been a critic of the President. The President is unhappy. We're going to figure out a way to get rid of this guy and now we have leverage and now we're going to do it. That's what it looks like to me and to basically everybody.
[12:00]
B
What about the argument? Listen, I agree with you there, but I just want to play devil's advocate a little bit and say what about the argument that these are the public airwaves and for decades now they have been controlled in the late night space by comedians, be it Colbert, Kimmel, Seth Meyers, Fallon's a little more down the middle. But they've been controlled by comedians that use their time, their space specifically to attack Republicans and Donald Trump and that the FCC is merely trying to even the playing field here. And by going after these people that have been so one sided in their comedy, they're doing the government's work.
[12:45]
C
Do you remember when there was the fair speech clause that existed. You had to have both sides.
[12:51]
B
Yeah. Equal time. There used to be. I mean, there's a version of it in politics, but there used to be that you had to have equal time on the broadcast network. So for political views, that's gone.
[12:58]
C
And you know why it's gone? Because right wing radio hosts were incredibly aggressive in trying to get rid of that. And now what they're that argument is saying, well, they shouldn't have all these comics having one point of view. Well, they got rid of that whole notion. There's no way that you can say to a comic that you've hired to do this job. And by the way, you got to tell jokes about Democrats in equal number because they made jokes about Joe Biden, they talked about his age and how goofy he was all the time. Not with this kind of level of passion. I agree with you. They're very passionate about this. This is something that they care about a lot.
[13:34]
B
Yeah, they go after Trump. These shows, Colbert and Kimmel in particular, go after Trump way more.
[13:40]
C
And that happens to be their prevailing point of view. They are entitled to that point of view. We have a free country. It's free speech. If those companies felt they were not, that was not fair or whatever, they could have done something about it. But they didn't because they hired those guys to be artists and that's what the artists do. They didn't step in and say, you have to do this or you have to do that. And I don't see any reason why that would bring the FCC in anyway. The FCC can't monitor shows and say, no, I'm sorry, that's too politically left. We have to. They want to do that. I think they want to do that. And I think we'll see that in other ways, especially if this leverage works for them.
[14:18]
B
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about Disney. What is Disney so afraid of here? Because if I'm Bob Iger and Dana Walden at Disney, I see where this goes and I'm gaming this out. And people are canceling Disney because they're so upset with this. This is not going to be a one day story.
[14:38]
C
No.
[14:38]
B
So why did they make the decision to pull him when we know behind the scenes they were trying to figure out a statement that he would make on the air and how he would address it. He wanted to do one thing. They were not comfortable with what he wanted to do. So why do this? What are they so afraid of?
[14:56]
C
Well, I think they're afraid of the economic fallout. It could be an enormous economic fallout for them.
[15:02]
B
You mean the NFL acquisition? They just bought the NFL Network assets. And yes, that is something that. It's kind of arguable whether the FCC has to get involved in that. I think it probably will. But you're just saying they do not want to be a target. None of these media companies want to be a target right now, which is why they're all settling. I would argue that their settlements, and Igers in particular at the beginning of all this, has laid the groundwork Absolutely. For these guys to get extra aggressive. It was sort of 100% predictable. And I think even Donald Trump supporters would say that he is kind of a bully when he wants something, and they like that about him. But in this sense, if I'm Bob Iger and I agree to pay $16 million to settle a pretty frivolous ABC News lawsuit, you got to know that when you give someone an inch and he's a bully, he's going to keep going. And this is not gonna end.
[15:54]
C
Everybody said it at the time. That's exactly what everybody said. And you have to know this guy. You have to know Trump. You have to know the way he functions. And he has total power now because his party, which you would think there have to be some people in the party who say, wait a minute, wait a minute. You can't infringe free speech that way. They are enthralled him. They won't bet.
[16:14]
B
They won't buck him up, including Brendan Carr, by the way. Everyone's recirculating, circulating the old tweets from him, talking about free speech. And even Joe Biden knows this. And you can't punish speech and yada yada. It doesn't. Nothing matters. Doesn't matter.
[16:27]
C
He said it in the context of comedy. He said that Joe Biden said these comedians have to be able to make fun of any. He said, yes, they do. That's what free speech is. And now it's different because it's Donald Trump. Everything is different because of Donald Trump. How many times have we said that over the last 10 years?
[16:44]
B
So people have asked me, why didn't Disney just keep airing Kimmel, but on their own stations and on Disney and Hulu? Why did it have to be pull him indefinitely?
[16:57]
C
Well, I think they were right up against the deadline of what they were going to do last night. Yeah, I think clearly that could be something they're talking about. I mean, I don't think they want to go down that road for all kinds of reasons.
[17:09]
B
Well, Dana thought That his apology or lack of apology or response would have made the matter worse. And they don't want this mushrooming into World War three with the government.
[17:21]
C
I think that's right. But that's the question about whether they go around them this way and say, well, we're going to use it on our stations, et cetera. The government will say they're licensed too. Those stations are licensed. So, you know, that CAR basically said, we can do it the easy way or the hard way. Right, right. Which is as mob a statement as you could possibly have, probably. And he'll go after the ABC licenses and he won't win that either. That's another one he can't win. There's no way you can pull a license on this basis.
[17:50]
B
It seems like a content based restriction on free speech to me. I am not a. I am not a telecommunications lawyer, but it seems to me that this would not last. But you know, what do you want to get into litigation with the President? This is the entire thing that they. That. That they settled for.
[18:08]
C
And he will be in public assailing you every day. And he has his own media to back him up.
[18:14]
B
Yeah, and it's Disney. And they know. They're trying desperately to remain apolitical. And Iger wants so badly to go back to the 1990s and 2000s when you could be a brand that appealed to everybody. And they have theme parks and they have movies that want to appeal to everybody. And they don't want to be adversarial with the President because he will use it to drive a wedge through their customers.
[18:40]
C
He'll suggest boycotts with their theme parks. Let's face it, they'll do that. So they are in a box, Matt. They are in a terrible, terrible box because let's say they decide to cancel Kimmel. Right. Well, I think then the entire creative community is going to completely go up in arms about this.
[18:55]
B
Well, last night, SAG and the Writers Guild both put out statements just ripping Disney for this.
[19:02]
C
And that will happen. And every comedian is gonna go after them. And the artists that might make movies may go after them. It's a very tight situation they're in. And I have been thinking about a solution. I don't know what it would be, except for Kimmel to come on and do something that sounds apologetic and for them to say, if you still are against this, then it's obvious it's not about this issue because he's made his apology and you still won't accept it. I mean, Sinclair, by the way, has Already said it doesn't matter what he says. They're gonna pull their stations off his show. So, I mean, that's the only thing I can see at this point other than them somebody in the company saying, we have to fight now. We gave in the last time. If we give in again, it'll never end. We have to fight now.
[19:44]
B
And if Iger doesn't do that, do you think his legacy is tarnished?
[19:48]
C
Big time.
[19:49]
B
Don't forget, he's gotten a lot of journalism awards. The ABC News building in New York is called the Robert A. Iger Building now. And you've got this guy that. Who is not exactly standing up for his people's journalistic principles.
[20:03]
C
Yes. And look, and I've known Bob forever, right. And I have a lot of respect for Bob and I think he has done. He has stood up in other times. But this is the biggest challenge. It will tarnish his legacy big time. I mean, we don't know where this whole thing is going. Matt Trump has now said he's going after the NBC guys. I mean, you know, if Saturday Night Live keeps making fun of them, he'll go after them. It's not going to end. Somebody has to put their foot down and fight, it seems like, or he'll roll over all of them. And it's easy for me to say and for you to say, anybody outside.
[20:35]
B
To say, yeah, well, I said that about the. In the whole Paramount situation. Said it's easy for all these people in the media to wag their fingers at David Ellison and Sherry Redstone. You don't have a $8 billion transaction that is contingent on the President's lackey giving it approval. And you know, by the way, David Ellison probably sending Bob Iger a fruit basket today. All the attention on CBS News is gone away now.
[21:00]
C
It's your baby to handle.
[21:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. But Disney doesn't have a specific $8 billion deal. They just have a general brand and government relations problem.
[21:13]
C
Yes. So in essence, they could attempt to write it out. They could.
[21:18]
B
I think the New York Times will. The New York Times got sued for $15 billion this week, and I think they will. That is much more than New York Times brand. They stand up for free speech. They have many, many lawyers. So I think they will.
[21:31]
C
But will Disney, Disney, as you pointed out, their appeal is across a broad range, an incredibly broad range. Sports and music and entertainment and theme parks, all of those things. So they would take an enormous economic hit.
[21:45]
B
And the fallback for them is always make it go away. Just, just de Escalate. And I don't think that's possible with these guys. We. Iger tried it and it led to this.
[21:55]
C
Exactly. That's my point. I think somebody is going to have to stop or it's going to be everybody. He'll roll over everybody. I don't know if Iger will be the one to say, I got to fight now. I got to. We're going to take our company and do what we can. And they can do certain things. I mean. I mean, they could do crazy stuff if they wanted. They could say to Nextar and Sinclair, well, you know, you don't get Monday Night Football.
[22:17]
B
Yeah. What leverage does Disney have here?
[22:19]
C
That's. That's what I'm thinking.
[22:20]
B
That's their leverage. They have programming on ABC that is very valuable to these networks. Now, you know, the overriding economic thing here is if this were the heyday of late night and these shows were delivering 8 million viewers a night, maybe it's a different conversation with some of these station groups. But when you're delivering 2, 3 million viewers a night, you have less leverage there. And maybe celebrity Family Feud reruns do rate as much as Jimmy Kimmel Live. We don't. I haven't seen the ratings yet, but the money that ABC is making on Kimmel is less. It's not a Colbert situation. We have been told that Kimmel is profitable. He does a lot more for the network than just hosting this show. He did the Oscars, he does Millionaire, he does game shows. He is like the face of the brand.
[23:07]
C
Exactly.
[23:08]
B
But it's not the heyday. And Kimmel has been talking about retirement anyways for many years. So let's get to the Kimmel question. Yes, obviously this all happened because he did not want to apologize overtly and do something a little more earnest that the ABC people wanted him to. How do you see this playing out? Do you apologize if you're him?
[23:31]
C
I want to correct you a little bit because the station people didn't know whether he was going to apologize or not.
[23:36]
B
Right. But what I'm talking about is the conversations within Disney, Dana Walden and Rob Mills, the head of Late Night, and they were all going back and forth during the day, is my understanding and trying to figure out how to address this on the show. Kimmel wanted to address this on the show, and ultimately Disney decided not to do do that. So what do you do? Is the trust there forever broken? Can this be resolved?
[24:03]
C
Unless they really want to be brave, it's going to be very hard. And Kimmel has to say something. He'd have to make some concession. Obviously, he has to make some concession. I personally think that's a little strange because it's not really a grotesque situation. Remember when Letterman made the comments about Sarah Palin's daughter and then they were pretty egregious and he came on the air and really kind of abjectly apologized about it. Right. The FCC did not get involved in that. There was no fc. It was just, hey, that was. That was over the line. This is such a different case. I mean, it really is.
[24:35]
B
Yeah. Kimmel probably would. Wouldn't do anything differently. I mean, I. I disagree with him.
[24:40]
C
A little bit, but a little bit.
[24:41]
B
He will probably say, this is what I said, and I will have to stand by it.
[24:44]
C
And I agree with you that he should have been realized. He should have realized they're gunning for me. I got to be careful, you know that. I mean, that should have been in his head. That's the one thing I would say. He should have said. I'm going to be very careful with this whole Kirk thing because they're using it as leverage against a lot of other companies.
[24:59]
B
Yeah.
[24:59]
C
But you know, Jimmy. Jimmy's also. I mean, how abject can he be? I mean, he. He can say, you know, I never meant this. I never meant that. I never meant this. And I. And I believe in free speech or whatever. It's not going to work for those people. It's not going to.
[25:13]
B
No. There'll be something else. They have. They have their microscope on him now, and it will be something else. He does that. They will come after him again. Figure out another way.
[25:26]
A
This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26. A favorite of my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stack this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W. So now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep. Larry Bird talking trash mid game. Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I. When I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my moon and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are. How they really look like NBA players to 2K26 is finally here. And yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything. This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Sylvester Stallone is back as the ultimate kingpin, Dwight Manfredi, in the original hit series Tulsa King, streaming September 21, exclusively on Paramount. This season, as Dwight's kingdom expands, he. He faces his most dangerous adversaries in Tulsa yet, forcing him to fight for everything he's built. Stream the new season of Tulsa King, Sunday, September 21, exclusively on Paramount. Plus learn more@paramountplus.com.
[26:54]
B
So if you're him, do you just go out a martyr? Do you just say, okay, I'm going to pull a Colbert and go on a victory tour, start my ringer podcast or do whatever you want to do and be a martyr for free speech? I mean, I just interviewed Lorne Michaels, and Lorne made a very interesting comment to me about this stuff. He was referencing the Smothers Brothers situation that happened in the 60s, and those guys were pulled off the air, and they were kind of went out as a martyr on there. And then he's like, you know what? You gotta keep the show. It's very easy to be a martyr and to kind of get the round of applause and go on a victory tour, but then you don't have your platform, and you will ultimately risk. I'm paraphrasing what he said, and that's kind of been his guiding light on the things to fight and the things to not fight is keep the show, keep the platform.
[27:47]
C
He felt that way about Conan, too. I remember talking to him about Conan, too. If I was Jimmy, this would make me want to keep the show more.
[27:54]
B
Oh, it would.
[27:55]
C
Yes, it would. Because you don't want to be driven out of the business by this guy, I think.
[28:00]
B
Even if it means you've got to apologize.
[28:02]
C
Yeah. In some fashion. You have to apologize and then live to fight another day, I mean, I think. And you have to not then back off and never make a joke about Trump. You have to still act the way you want.
[28:12]
B
Colbert's been doing Trump stuff. You know, he's, he's, he knows he's off the air, but he's not.
[28:17]
C
But he didn't get taken off the air abruptly like, it's over like this.
[28:21]
B
Yeah.
[28:22]
C
So he has a year. He basically. They gave him a year to say what he wants to say. For Kimmel, it would be like, we're shutting you off. And now he would land somewhere if he wanted to, obviously. But I think if he can find a way. A thread's a needle. He has to thread pretty tight. But if he can find a way to not feel humiliated by saying, look, I did something that I know has been questioned, if people are upset about it, then I want to be apologetic to them or something and make it look sincere. I think he would be sincere and then try to brazen it out. Now, I don't know what abc, how strongly they'll back him. I just don't know because I don't think those stations are going to come back.
[28:59]
B
You don't? So there's a scenario where Jimmy Kimmel Live continues, but in only 70% of the country.
[29:05]
C
Yeah, that's what I think.
[29:07]
B
And it's interesting because I'm thinking back to the Bill Maher situation on Politically Incorrect. For those who don't remember, Bill Maher was the host of Politically Incorrect on abc and his show was taken off the air after he made some comments right after 911 where he said the terrorists were not cowardly because they were carrying out suicide attacks. And it was a remark that was in direct contrast to what another Republican president, George W. Bush, had said. You know, the terrorists were cowards. ABC just cut bait with that one. I wasn't covering this stuff then, but I assume the affiliates were going nuts over that.
[29:42]
C
And the advertisers. The advertisers went nuts about that.
[29:46]
B
Yeah. We haven't heard from the advertisers in this situation.
[29:48]
C
That's interesting. But there was no government enforcement saying, if you don't do this, you'll lose your license. That didn't happen. This is the only time something like this happened where there was a. The thumb of government being put on the head of a network to say, you do what we want or we will take away your business. We'll take away your business. That is totally authoritarianism, by the way. I mean, you know, that script is played out everywhere.
[30:13]
B
Wait until Disney does bring Kimmel back. And then Trump and Brendan Carr say, we are going to monitor every single advertiser and we are going to make life difficult for Procter and Gamble and for Molson, Coors and for all of these companies that are advertising on this show.
[30:28]
C
Yeah, and that's why I said it is a box that they're in. But if they don't do it, if somebody does do it, then all. Then there'll be no recourse for anybody, anybody who wants to stand up. You just don't have anybody backing you. If the advertisers all cave on them, then It's. It's another whole segment that. That is under control of the government. You know, like, how much are we going to see here?
[30:51]
B
And it's so funny because it's not a secret. It's not like Trump would say exactly this. If we had him on the show, he would say, yes, we're going after these people that are very mean to me that have just. They're. They're sick. They're disgusting. It's like he's writing. He's writing the brief for the Supreme Court.
[31:10]
C
Well, he's throwing in Fallon and Myers was totally gratuitous. They had nothing to do with this situation. But, hey, NBC, we need you to act now. I mean, it's just. I mean, he's open about it. There's no hiding what he's doing. He wants power over every aspect of American life, basically. He takes over the Kennedy Center. He takes over anything he wants. You know, And I think he basically, when he got his way with 60 Minutes and Stephanopoulos, I think it was just like, so these guys are never going to step in my way. I'm just going to keep going.
[31:46]
B
Yeah. I think. Big misstep by Iger.
[31:49]
C
Yep.
[31:50]
B
I know he was afraid of pursuing that case and potentially getting a negative ruling at the Supreme Court that would overturn New York Times versus Sullivan, which is very key to free speech rights. But it opened the door here, and it's not going to end. I mean, best case scenario, this goes on for another year and a couple months until the Congress switches over and there is some kind of check on it. But worst case scenario, for these media companies, this goes on for the next three years.
[32:19]
C
Well. Or longer. Well, I don't count on this election either, because I said this a long time ago and people sneered at me. I don't think it's guaranteed there'll be an election.
[32:29]
B
Oh, you're one of those guys. You're the Bill Maher camp. You think that this is a permanent authoritarian government. I'm not going that far.
[32:36]
C
Well, I said that before, but look what they're doing with the redistricting and all that. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm just saying it's definitely in their heads. It's in their heads, and they know, because if they do get the Congress, they'll be able to block him in some ways and they'll probably impeach him again, which, you know, will be something he will go crazy about.
[32:55]
B
All right, so forget the politics for this point. We are A business podcast. And we obsess over the Disney succession issue. Dana Walden, does this hurt her chances of taking over for Iger? Does it help it if she manages this? Does it help it?
[33:10]
C
Enormously, in my opinion. Enormously.
[33:13]
B
Why?
[33:13]
C
Because I don't think they've ever faced anything like this.
[33:16]
B
Oh, you. Do you think this is a existential Disney future of Disney questions?
[33:21]
C
Absolutely. I mean, we've just said if they fire him, they will have caved and nothing. They have no way to stand up and the creative community will react against them. And there's a huge domino effect from that. If they stand by him, they lose huge amounts of money, and there's a domino effect from that. So if you can skate in some way, if you figure it out, a way to skate through that, that would, that would be an achievement. They'd write in Dana.
[33:46]
B
Yeah, Dana deserves to be CEO. She can manage this.
[33:49]
C
Absolutely.
[33:50]
B
Yeah. I don't. You know, I think you may be overstating the internal pressure from the creative community. Everyone had sort of sat on their hands over the Stephanopoulos settlement. And Iger has done a lot of things that 10 years ago would have sparked outrage within the community. You know, editing the transgender stuff out of Pixar content, walking back the DEI stuff to appease Trump, you know, other things. There's kind of a quasi mandate that we are not here to push an agenda. We are here to entertain and people. Iger said that, and people kind of know what he means. It's, you know, it's. And I think there would have been more pushback in the, in the past, but we haven't really seen it throughout the community, at least not publicly in the way that we saw it with the whole Florida don't say gay thing with Bob Chapek, where the Pixar people went nuts. So I don't know how much people are going to speak out against him.
[34:45]
C
I agree with you that the community may be just as cowed as everyone else at some point. And they are all self interested, obviously, that's true. But this is materially different from anything else that's happened. This is the literal government shutting down the free speech of an artist that is employed by the network. It's never happened this way before. This is. And we've. And it's part of this whole rolling ball that's coming downhill at everybody. And I mean, I don't know how far the community will go. I mean, and maybe Disney will say that we're not as afraid of them as we are of these guys, you know.
[35:24]
B
Well, I appreciate you coming on. I am looking forward to you and I hosting a podcast on the White House lawn to talk about how great the American president is. And we will both be very successful and get a lot of promotion from the fcc.
[35:37]
C
Yeah. All right.
[35:39]
B
Thanks, Bill.
[35:39]
C
Good to be with you.
[35:41]
B
All right, no call sheet today. That is the show. I want to thank my guest, Bill Carter, producer Craig Horbeck, artist Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.