Kimmel’s Return, Disney’s Decision, and Iger’s Legacy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: Kimmel’s Return, Disney’s Decision, and Iger’s Legacy
Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Matt Belloni (Puck/The Ringer)
Guest: Lucas Shaw (Bloomberg)
Notable Segment Contributor: Craig Horbeck

---

Overview

This episode dives deep into the recent turmoil surrounding the temporary suspension and subsequent return of “Jimmy Kimmel Live!” after controversial comments sparked backlash from the right wing, action from Disney, and an industry-wide debate about free speech, corporate crisis management, and the legacies of entertainment executives like Bob Iger and Dana Walden. Matt Belloni and Lucas Shaw provide expert analysis on what happened behind the scenes, how public and industry pressure forced Disney’s hand, and what this means for major players—and the culture war at large.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Kimmel Suspension and Disney’s Internal Struggle

[01:45-07:24]

• Disney initially suspended “Jimmy Kimmel Live!” following comments from Kimmel which provoked a surge of conservative outrage and concerns about inflaming a "tense situation."
• The decision was described as “indefinite” and left the creative and business communities reeling. Belloni notes that “all the Hollywood Guilds put out statements. People were canceling their Disney and Hulu.”
• Notably, 400 stars and former Disney CEO Michael Eisner publicly backed Kimmel, intensifying pressure on Bob Iger and Disney.

Quote:
“Even Michael Eisner, the former CEO of Disney, he weighed in, asking, where is the leadership?”
— Matt Belloni [02:42]

--

2. Why Did Disney Reverse Course?

[04:18-08:03]

• Lucas Shaw explains that massive negative publicity and backlash from creative constituencies forced Disney to bring Kimmel back sooner than perhaps anticipated.
• The decision was less about principle and more about damage control after pressure from both political sides and Disney customers.

Quote:
“They saw a potential disaster when Brendan Carr [FCC] went on Benny Johnson’s podcast and threatened them... I think they made a very hasty move to take him down, which really killed them in the short run.”
— Lucas Shaw [05:14]

• Both hosts agree that Disney miscalculated the breadth of outrage, especially after observing not just left-wing but also some conservative figures urging Kimmel’s return.

Quote:
“If you talk to people Wednesday night... a lot of people were like, the show’s done. It’s not coming back. And over the next couple days, that started to change.”
— Lucas Shaw [06:03]

---

3. The Iger Legacy and Leadership Question

[08:27-11:16]

• Bob Iger’s handling of the incident is dissected; his personal distaste for criticism and legacy concerns accelerated Disney’s pivot.
• Michael Eisner’s rare public criticism served as a significant internal and external catalyst.
• The focus shifted from Dana Walden to Iger in media coverage, putting additional weight on Iger's legacy as a values-driven leader.

Quote:
“Eisner does not talk publicly about the company... He went online and said, ‘where is the leadership?’ And if I’m Iger, that is a dagger.”
— Matt Belloni [09:18]

---

4. The Continuing Culture War and Fallout

[11:16-14:53]

• Belloni and Shaw anticipate retaliatory statements by Donald Trump and right-wing actors, predicting ongoing threats (such as boycott calls).
• The Disney statement itself was described as carefully and blandly crafted, notably absent of leadership quotes—indicating the stakes and strain surrounding executive involvement.
• Discussion also covers affiliate station responses and the role of FCC’s Brendan Carr, highlighting the complicated relationship between media companies, government, and broadcast partners.

Memorable Exchange:
“I think several [spokespeople] probably died during the process... Their memories will live on as contributing to the wonderful statement that was totally benign and didn’t say anything.”
— Matt Belloni [13:16]

---

5. What Will Kimmel Say, and Why Did He Return?

[14:49-15:57]

• The hosts speculate Kimmel will show some contrition but not fully apologize, perhaps avoiding targeted attacks on right-wing media in his return monologue.
• Kimmel’s motivation to return is seen as partly loyalty to staff livelihoods and a refusal to be dictated by Trump’s demands.

Quote:
“Like, does he want his show to end because fucking Donald Trump told him to end it?”
— Lucas Shaw [15:44]

---

6. Does the Fallout Stick to Iger or Walden?

[16:06-18:11]

• Belloni contends the episode will linger as a blemish on Bob Iger’s reputation and potentially impact Dana Walden’s internal standing as a CEO-in-waiting, depending on how the situation evolves.
• Shaw notes that Disney (and others) tried to make issues "go away" under Trump, but this strategy is failing as Trump doesn’t relent, which may push companies towards a more combative stance.

---

7. The Affiliates, FCC, & What Comes Next

[19:10-21:29]

• Detailed discussion of station group politics (Nexstar, Sinclair) and FCC/Brendan Carr threats. Local affiliate carriage remains uncertain.
• There are financial and legal risks, but Disney signaled willingness to take hits to protect creative relationships and set a precedent against external bullying.

Quote:
“If we don’t stand up to these guys, they’re gonna extort us on every single thing we do.”
— Matt Belloni [12:12]

---

8. Dana Walden’s Succession Odds

[23:10-26:48]

• The ramifications for Dana Walden’s prospects as future Disney CEO are addressed. Her handling of the controversy may factor into board calculations, especially given her existing visibility with Trump and ABC News.
• Both hosts suggest the long-term impact on her candidacy depends on whether things stabilize or worsen.

Quote:
“If she navigates this and this goes away, maybe it’s a positive... but maybe this turns into a complete disaster, both politically and economically.”
— Matt Belloni [26:02]

---

9. Ratings Curiosity: Will Kimmel Get a Bump?

[27:16-28:34]

• Anticipation for Kimmel’s return episode ratings: Baseline is about 1.6-1.7 million viewers live+same day; the hosts predict a substantial, but likely unsustained, spike due to curiosity.

---

10. Closing Perspective on Iger and Disney’s Next Moves

[28:35-29:51]

• Belloni argues Iger's personal integrity and how he’s perceived in Hollywood were decisive in bringing Kimmel back promptly.
• Unresolved: How Trump and his allies will react, and whether Disney can weather further political attacks or legal threats.

---

Bonus Segment: "Call Sheet" – NFL Ratings Discussion

[29:52-33:52]

• Belloni and Craig Horbeck discuss whether the revised Nielsen ratings system is adequately capturing NFL viewership trends.
• Slight disappointment that gains aren’t as large as projected; speculation on whether splintered distribution platforms impact numbers.
• Both expect NFL ratings to remain healthy, with predictions ranging from a 5% to 8-9% increase by season’s end.

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “They made a very hasty move to take him down, which really killed them in the short run.” — Lucas Shaw [05:14]
• “Eisner... went online and said, where is the leadership? And if I’m Iger, that is a dagger.” — Matt Belloni [09:18]
• “He genuinely cares about the staff, and if he just took it off the air, he would be putting a couple hundred people out of work right away.” — Lucas Shaw [15:21]
• “If we don’t stand up to these guys, they’re gonna extort us on every single thing we do.” — Matt Belloni [12:12]
• “Dana Walden is already on his [Trump’s] radar because of the Kamala Harris friendship and the ABC news stuff during the debates, which he blamed on her, I think unfairly.” — Matt Belloni [24:13]

---

Tone & Style

The conversation is informal, witty, and a bit irreverent, balancing sharp industry insight with clear frustration at corporate and political gamesmanship. Belloni is particularly tongue-in-cheek, not pulling punches in criticism toward Disney’s public relations apparatus and its sometimes clumsy crisis navigation.

---

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This podcast is a must-listen for industry followers and anyone interested in Hollywood’s intersection with media, politics, and culture. It captures the intricacies of high-stakes executive decisions, the ripple effects of the culture wars on major companies, and the personalities behind public statements. The expert commentary offers both breaking news context and long-range perspective, leaving listeners anticipating the next move in a drama that is far from over.

Transcript

[Matt Bellamy]

If you care about Hollywood, and I assume you do, if you're listening to the Town, you should really be getting the whole story about Hollywood. That's what you get with Puck. I'm a founding partner Puck and I write a newsletter called what I'm Hearing. It's got exclusive news for insiders and analysis of the biggest stories. Puck has a bunch of great journalists. We just hired Kim Masters, who also covers Hollywood from the inside, plus media, sports, fashion, politics and finance. It's a must have for plugged in people. Fans of the Town get a discount on the description page of this episode or at Puck News thetown. Go further into Hollywood by becoming a Puck member today. This episode is brought to you by AMC Theaters. Experience an unprecedented season of films and earn rewards while you watch with Focus Features in AMC theaters. See Downton the Grand Finale, Anemone, Begonia, Hamnet and Songsung Blue. Watch all five and unlock a $200 gift card for exclusive merchandise and be entered to win the ultimate Focus Features Red Carpet Experience. Make it a Focus Features Fall exclusively at AMC Theaters. Visit amctheaters.com focusfeatures to start earning your rewards. No purchase necessary. See Official Rules for details.

[Lucas Shaw]

This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Got a car to sell, but no time to waste? Hop onto Carvana.com to get a real offer for your car in seconds. All you have to do is enter your license plate, answer a few quick questions, and if you accept the offer, Carvana will pay you as soon as you hand the keys over. They even offer same day pickup in many cities. Save your time, score some cash and sell your car the convenient way to Carvana. Pick up. Times vary. Fees may apply.

[Matt Bellamy]

It is Monday, September 22nd. Jimmy Kimmel is back. Our long national nightmare is over. Today we got the statement from Disney about Jimmy Kimmel Live. I will just read it in full. Last Wednesday we made the decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill timed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last days having thoughtful conversations with Jimmy and after those conversations we reached the decision to return the show on Tuesday. Okay, that's it. No statement from Kimmel. Nothing further from Bob Iger or Dana Walden at Disney. My understanding is the three of them talked all weekend. Of course, the pressure was really building on Disney. We talked with Bill Carter on Thursday about everything that led to this suspension. The Charlie Kirk comment The right wing backlash, Kimmel's unwillingness to alter what he wanted to say on the show, the to address the controversy and Disney's ultimate decision to pause the show, quote, indefinitely. Some indelicate language there. Since then, all the Hollywood Guilds have put out statements. People were canceling their Disney and Hulu. Earlier today, a group of 400 stars backed Kimmel and even Michael Eisner, the former CEO of Disney, he weighed in, asking, where is the leadership? So, yes, lots of pressure on Bob Iger and ultimately, I think his sensitivity to criticism and ultimately his legacy is.

[Lucas Shaw]

What pushed this over, over the top.

[Matt Bellamy]

We taped this before Sinclair, one of the station groups said that it will not bring Kimmel back and it will preempt it. Discussions are ongoing with Disney, they said, but lots of factors and still many question marks about how this will all play out with the FCC and Brendan Carr, who have pledged to police Kimmel the, quote, easy way or the hard way, as well as the affiliates, the advertisers, and perhaps most importantly, what will Kimmel say tomorrow on his show? For that, we've got Lucas Shaw, our Monday guy, here for the Jimmy Kimmel debate, why he's back and all the implications from the ringer and puck. I'm Matt Bellamy and this is the town. Okay. We are here with Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg a little later today because obviously we knew something was up and we were kind of hinted to wait. And we did wait and we were rewarded with the Disney news. And now we are going to discuss all things Jimmy Kimmel. Welcome, Lucas. Great to be here.

[Lucas Shaw]

Didn't wreck my morning at all.

[Matt Bellamy]

All right, no pleasantries today. No discussion of Clayton Kershaw's final home game. We're getting right into the big news. Disney, Jimmy Kimmel and the settlement that just came over the emails. I read the statement in the intro. There are a number of different ways this could have played out. Kimmel could have left in a fiery tirade about how Disney has screwed him. They could have moved him to Hulu. They could have come to some agreement with the affiliates, where the affiliates put out a statement. We are taping this where we have not seen the affiliates response to this. We have not seen FCC Commissioner Brendan Karz response to this. But we know that Disney made the decision to bring Kimmel back. So my question to you is why? How did this break this way?

[Lucas Shaw]

Because they got so much negative publicity.

[Matt Bellamy]

You think it was that you think they were hell bent on keeping him off the air?

[Lucas Shaw]

No, look, I think if people like Ted Cruz And Andrew Schultz were actually just as influential in this, I would imagine, as. As any talent. I just think, look, they saw a potential disaster for them when Brendon Carr went on Benny Johnson's podcast and threatened them and threatened station owners. And then they had two of the biggest station groups saying that they weren't gonna offer the show. And Kimmel didn't wanna back down from what he said, and if anything, they felt he was gonna make it worse. So I think they made a very hasty move to take him down, which really killed them in the short run.

[Matt Bellamy]

In a bad statement, with just putting out the statement saying, he is preempted indefinitely with no explanation, no saying, oh, we want to have him back, but we're going to discuss this. It sounded like he was getting the guillotine.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. If you talk to people, that was Wednesday, I believe. If you talk to people Wednesday night, a lot of people were like, the show's done. It's not coming back. And over the next couple days, that started to change. And you could feel from people at Disney that by Thursday and certainly by Friday and Saturday, they were like, we gotta get this guy back on the air.

[Matt Bellamy]

And you believe that the backlash was the primary fact?

[Lucas Shaw]

I think what they will say, it was a principled decision and that they never planned for him to go off permanently and all of those things.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And to their credit, they were saying that on Wednesday and Thursday, they were correct.

[Lucas Shaw]

They were consistent all along that they were not taking him off permanently. But I do think that the reason they felt the need to get him back as quickly as possible was. Was because, look, they had some very important constituencies. They had the creative community in Hollywood.

[Matt Bellamy]

They had protests at their gate in Burbank. Yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

They had customers who were upset. I don't know how real the, like, canceled Disney plus movement was, but it's not a good thing for a media company when that's happening.

[Matt Bellamy]

I normally discount that stuff, but I had multiple friends of mine who have nothing to do with the business say we canceled Disney because of this. They were so. I don't know if that's meaningful. I know we don't use personal anecdotes.

[Lucas Shaw]

To make larger points, anecdotal evidence, but it just got caught up in this much larger conversation about freedom of speech and Trump's war on the press.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yes. And they, I don't think, anticipated the level of vitriol directed at them. I mean, I don't know about you, but I get approached sometimes to do other media hits. I have never been Approached by more media outlets to talk about a story than this one. All over the world. I. I'm getting emails and calls from people. This is a global story because it is emblematic of Trump's war on institutions and on the media and all of the things that have dominated the media coverage for the past week.

[Lucas Shaw]

It is telling for me that Kimmel stories have been like the most read stories on our website all weekend. People can't get enough of it.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. So I agree with you. And I think the public backlash really accelerated the desire to get him back asap, because the longer this dragged on, the less likely it was going to be an easy path to resume the show. They were paying the staff. They had all of these conservative people come out in favor of bringing him back, which I think was very influential.

[Lucas Shaw]

I was being serious when I said I. When I saw Ted Cruz say something.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And rant.

[Lucas Shaw]

I don't think their comments necessarily influenced Disney, but they are indicative that this is an issue where Trump maybe didn't have, like the full party behind him.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And Disney knows that. They see that as a weakness. If this was the entire Republican establishment that was saying, no, Disney, you better keep this guy off the air or else. But it wasn't that. There was a weakness in that armor, and they saw that. I also think Michael Eisner was a key factor here. We're dealing with Bob Iger here, and you and I both know Bob. Very high respect for Bob. One of the greatest entertainment CEOs of all time. He's very thin skinned. He does not like to be criticized. He does not like to have his legacy questioned or his judgment or leadership questioned. And to have Michael Eisner go public on Twitter, his predecessor, very complicated relationship with him. Eisner does not talk publicly about the company, does not criticize Iger. He went online and said, where is the leadership? And if I'm Iger, that is a dagger.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. It was very interesting in reading the coverage, which I felt like at the beginning, whether intentionally or not, it was sort of like this was Dana Walden's decision. But obviously that decision does not get made without Bob Iger being a part of it. Right.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And he was there all weekend in the talks. It was Dana, Bob and Jimmy.

[Lucas Shaw]

But at a certain point, I feel like the press coverage also tilted from initially a little, you know, more focused on Dana to an intense focus on Bob and what this meant for his legacy and what a bad look it was for him. People see him as someone with a spine and with a Moral center, Right.

[Matt Bellamy]

Can you believe his wife is the dean of a journalism school and he's pulling this nonsense at Disney? And why should they be hosting a fundraiser for women in media at their house when he is crapping all over ABC News and Jimmy Kimmel?

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, it became a big enough priority for him that he had to get it done as soon as possible. I think they would have liked him back on the air today, but that just was too soon.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And I know that there was a lot of back and forth today over whether, you know, what the statement was going to say, whether Kimmel was going to say something, all the logistics and to do this not knowing what the affiliates are going to say. I am told there has been some back channeling with the affiliates.

[Lucas Shaw]

There's been a bunch, yeah, there were.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, they were aware of what was going to happen today, but Disney is not aware at this taping of what the affiliates are going to do and what Brendan Carr is going to do and most importantly, what Donald Trump is going to do here. Because that's all coming.

[Lucas Shaw]

I feel like they only need one of the two station groups.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh really?

[Lucas Shaw]

I think they'll be totally fine if only one. But if both of them have it, it does hurt.

[Matt Bellamy]

It hurts. But I think at this point you have drawn the line in the sand and you have said we are willing to take that financial hit. Because the larger problem if we don't is that the entire creative community comes after us and we start losing talent partnerships and we look like the boogeyman here. And then Trump is emboldened to come after the View or other shows or extort us in other ways. We have found where the line is on these media companies and this is it. So they see the larger point. I think, whereas maybe a week ago the larger point was let's protect the greater interests of the Walt Disney Company and our FCC licenses and all the deals we wanna do for the NFL Network and for other things that may come before the fcc. And now they are seeing the opposite, which is if we don't stand up to these guys, they're gonna extort us on every single thing we do.

[Lucas Shaw]

What do you think the Trump car response is? Cuz they don't back down.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, this is a trap. Because this is gonna air after they've already made them, so we're gonna look dumb if we're wrong.

[Lucas Shaw]

Fair, fair, fair.

[Matt Bellamy]

But of course I believe he's gonna put out some kind of tweet or statement saying this is an abomination. What Jimmy Kimmel said is absolutely offensive to so many millions of Americans. And, and for Disney to back him, it just shows you what kind of scumbags are running these media companies. And we need to stand up to them and join me and join Donald Trump in standing up to these scumbags that run the media companies.

[Lucas Shaw]

And they just put Disney at the center of a big old culture war.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yes, exactly. And you know, I don't know if it'll go that far. Maybe Trump says boycott the parks. Maybe Trump says cancel Disney. Maybe he does something like that. I don't know.

[Lucas Shaw]

How many different spokespeople do you think went into writing the Disney statement today?

[Matt Bellamy]

I think several probably died during the process and their memories will live on as contributing to the wonderful statement that was totally benign and didn't say anything and did not include any quotes from the executives. No, I don't know. I mean, the interesting thing is that I think a lot of the reps were sidelined on the actual talks and it really just was Jimmy with Bob and Dana.

[Lucas Shaw]

And how many revisions will there be of his statement at the top of the show on Tuesday?

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, that's the huge question here because I got a preview of what he was going to say before he was told not to say it on Wednesday's show. And yeah, it was a walk back a little bit. It was a clarification of his comment. And we discussed this with Bill Carter and he went further than that, though. He talked about Fox News. He talked about a bunch of different things that Disney found to be over the line and the right wing media and how it's weaponized and all the things that they felt would make this situation worse. Who knows if he has backed down at all? I mean, as far as we know, the leverage went towards Kimmel because of the backlash that was out there. Disney needed to resolve this. So maybe he's doing exactly what he wanted to do last Wednesday and they have just simply come to an agreement. Or maybe he has agreed to say I'm sorry or to say I understand how people misinterpreted this or something a little more contrite.

[Lucas Shaw]

I think we're going to land short of an apology, but there will be some contrition.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And maybe not call out Fox News by name. Maybe not say that the right wing media is out to get me even though everybody knows they are. So do you think there was a scenario where Kimmel was like, screw this, why would I even want to come back? Because this is. He had to come back. Not going away. This is going to become a problem. He's not going to change his act. There's going to be something else that he says that enrages the. Right. So why does he want to come back?

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, a couple of big reasons. One, from everything I've heard, not to let for people who work for the show. Like, he genuinely cares about the staff, and if he just took it off the air, he would be putting a couple hundred people out of work right away. And I don't think he wanted to do that. I also think for a more personal reason for him. Like, does he want his show to end because fucking Donald Trump told him to end it?

[Matt Bellamy]

Right, right.

[Lucas Shaw]

Like, much as he might not want to deal with the pain, the pain that could come, you know, going forward, he at least this way he can sort of end on what could be or should be his terms as opposed to what the President says.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. By the way, big loser here, the ringer Kimmel, not doing a ringer ringer podcast just yet.

[Lucas Shaw]

Give him a couple of years. Come on.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you think that any of this sticks to Iger or Walden long term?

[Matt Bellamy]

All right, so you want to talk about that? Let's talk about that now. I do think it sticks a little bit to both of them. And I know we have short memories in this country. I know if this dies down in two weeks, we, we will have largely forgotten it. But there was a moment there where the, the Iger gravitas was being tossed around in the mud. An entire 20 minute segment on John Oliver. It just, I think it's going to leave a little bit of a stink on him, even though he is now standing up. And we'll see how this plays out. It just with all the stuff that's going on and all the things that he has felt he needed to do to placate the new administration, it feels like he takes a little bit of a hit here.

[Lucas Shaw]

I don't know because I. Look, I guess it depends on how the rest of his tenure plays out with regard to Trump, because I, I do, I do think that the ABC settlement hurt him and the company a.

[Matt Bellamy]

Little bit and has gotten worse in hindsight now that it's come home to roost in other ways.

[Lucas Shaw]

Right. And they were part of this larger movement of companies choosing to just sort of pay Trump to make him go away, only to realize he wasn't going to go away. And so if this is a sign that they have sort of a slightly different approach and they are going to take a more aggressive posture I think it, then it actually could be something of a turning point. But if this is just like some. If every situation is going to be handled sort of responding to the, the needs of the moment, then I think we have to see what comes next. Because as, as we've discussed, this is not the last time that Disney is suddenly going to be in some type of public fight with Trump. And it's not, it's not necessarily that. Disney does not have to be a member of the resistance. Right. It is not their job to stand up to Trump, but it is the job of a media company to say, hey, you're the president. You don't like, get to tell us who to put on the air. Right, Right. That's our decision.

[Matt Bellamy]

But are they going to fight litigation against Trump? Let's say he does move on their licenses and he does. You know, Carr has been very careful to not get into specific legal fights that could be appealable or could lead to litigation or rulings that are unfavorable. He's sort of been doing this as like a bully that gets his way without having to do that. But here Dizzy's now forcing his hand and he may feel like they need to remove the license or move. I know it's very difficult. There's a whole process around that and they would probably lose in court. Disney has an amazing case, as like nearly every single legal commentator has noted. But does Disney want to fight years of litigation over this?

[Lucas Shaw]

I don't see Disney giving up its broadcast licenses. But it is worth noting that Brendan Carr earlier on Monday, sort of, sort of walk back his comments saying that he didn't say that he would pull the licenses that he said he would pull.

[Matt Bellamy]

Maybe. Maybe Ben Shapiro called him. I also Sinclair, which initially demanded that Disney make a donation to Turning Point usa, Charlie Kirk's organization, and they were planning to run a Charlie Kirk special in the Kimmel slot that actually didn't happen. They put that on YouTube. Unclear why that didn't happen, but maybe they are backing down a little bit on this.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, I mean, Sinclair was the more aggressive though. Nexstar was the first one to act. Sinclair was the more strident of the two and is sort of more widely known as having a conservative lean. What is there to be gained at this point from them not putting him on just because they had a lot of complaints from viewers or cause they want to score points with the president?

[Matt Bellamy]

And the president's FCC chair is essentially telling them what to do. And they have $6 billion in deals that are pending. I mean, Nexstar has an actual deal, but Sinclair would like to merge as well. There's this opening for these companies to own a lot more stations than they do and they don't want the FCC to put any blocks in place for that. So of course they are incentivized to fight what's going to happen to that 6 point billion deal if Nexstar says, you know what, we're okay with Disney now, we're going to air the show, they sort of have to follow through and not air it.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yes, unlike Disney, nexstar has no real compelling reason to stand up for Kimmel if Trump doesn't want them to.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, and I just feel like it's going to be a difficult needle for them to thread if they want to bring this show back. And let's be honest, there are plenty of shows throughout the history of television that did not air on certain station groups. I mean, the example everyone uses is the Ellen I'm Gay episode.

[Lucas Shaw]

But that's a specific episode, not a show.

[Matt Bellamy]

But as John Oliver noted, there were stations in the south that wouldn't air Sesame street because it had an interracial cast. So like there are lots of stations that just don't air certain things.

[Lucas Shaw]

There's precedent.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, there's precedent. So maybe if Disney can work out the economics and now with Hulu and Disney, there are other places where they could put this show. I just think that the financials on this, even if they're bad, they needed to do it.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, the affiliates don't matter. This show is back.

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, they do matter. But Disney just seems to be willing now to take that hit both politically and economically in order to stand up for this principle that they have articulated. This episode is brought to you by the all new ESPN app. All of ESPN all in one place. Your home for the most live sports and best championship moments. It's the ultimate fan experience. Step up your game and get even more than before with no annual contract required. Level up. For more on the ESPN app or at stream.espn.com Sign up now.

This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K26. A favor to my sons and me. All right, quick break. NBA 2K26 stacked this year. Gameplay new motion engine smoother catch and shoot. The rhythm shooting is dialed in. My team added the W so now you can get Caitlin Clark pulling up from deep Larry Bird talking trash mid game. You Jokic casually dropping triple doubles. It's absurd in the best way. My career has a whole new storyline. The city's tighter and you're on the court way faster. I've been playing video basketball games. I think the first one was early 80s. I'm stunned. Like when I, when I go and my son's playing with his friends and I go in and I barge my wound and I start playing with them. I'm just amazed by how good, how detailed all the games are, how they really look like NBA players. 2K26 is finally here. And yeah, it is absolutely loaded. If you care about basketball even a little, you're checking it out today. Ball over everything.

So we haven't gotten to Dana Walden.

[Lucas Shaw]

I was wondering if you just intentionally skipped.

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, as you know, on the show, we have a recurring segment. Is this news good or bad for Dana Walden and her CEO succession dreams?

[Lucas Shaw]

I mean, there's not a world in which it's good.

[Matt Bellamy]

No, but is it. But how bad is it?

[Lucas Shaw]

I don't know how bad it is.

[Matt Bellamy]

So I had breakfast with a prominent Disney watcher this morning who this was before the news broke, but this person said, all right, put yourself in the shoes of someone in the Walt Disney board. And you know that if Dana Walden is named CEO, there's gonna be a ton of news about it worldwide. I mean, it's new CEO of Disney, but first woman to lead this company in 100 years. It is a big deal if she gets that job. You don't think that news is going to cross the desk of Donald Trump? And she is already on his radar because of the Kamala Harris friendship and the ABC news stuff during the debates, which he blamed on her, I think unfairly. But she is already on his radar. And if you're a board member looking at if she gets the top job, it's only going to enrage Trump. So would you do that knowing there's an alternative in Josh tomorrow?

[Lucas Shaw]

I think it's less about Trump and more how do you feel that she handled a really thorny situation? Right.

[Matt Bellamy]

Okay.

[Lucas Shaw]

We talked, we talked about the initial kind of decision to preempt him and the statement that came out that probably wasn't the best statement. And then the need to spend the next several days sort of doing damage control and figuring out how to handle it. And at least for the last few days, the perception from the public has been that this was not handled well by Disney. Right.

[Matt Bellamy]

But is that an Iger issue or a Dana issue?

[Lucas Shaw]

It's both, but it's under her. Like if there was a huge issue at the parks. Right.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. If a kid got eaten by an alligator is the example I use.

[Lucas Shaw]

It would become an Iger issue, but it is still a Josh issue. And so if it is something that does not go well, it generally will not reflect well upon the leadership. Now, I can't speak for Disney's board of directors. I can't speak for Bob Iger or Dana. In the moment, they may feel like, okay, we had a rough couple days, but we got to a point where we ended up standing up for our principles, and this is gonna end up playing out well, and maybe that's how they feel. But the last few days, at least in the moment, it was clear that people did not think that Disney was handling it well. And that reflects poorly on both Bob and. And Dana, I guess, fortunately for Bob, he's not competing for a job, whereas she is. And you have that at the same time. Where kind of the only bad. The only bad press Josh has gotten was that big New York Times story about how the parks are not affordable anymore.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right.

[Lucas Shaw]

Which wasn't great. Which wasn't great either.

[Matt Bellamy]

No. But you know what? I think it depends how this plays out from now on in the next month or two. Because I said on this very show last week, if she navigates this and this goes away, maybe it's a positive. Ultimately, if in six months, we're talking about a rejuvenated Jimmy Kimmel Live that maybe brought in some new audience and Kimmel's this martyr and everyone's showing up for his show now, maybe it ends up being a positive, but maybe this turns into a complete disaster, both politically and economically, based on a decision that was made and the way. Way that it was handled not being great. I mean, the one thing someone asked me is what happened on Tuesday? This happened on a Monday night, and it was Wednesday where it all came.

[Lucas Shaw]

To a head, because they clearly didn't think it was a problem.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right. And that's a misstep. And I don't want to get into, you know, who did what, but this was bubbling up on social media on Tuesday, and Disney could have maybe nipped it before it got to this crisis point on Wednesday where they were racing against time before that night's episode. And then maybe they got out, could have got out before the FCC commissioner weighed in.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you really think that there's going to be a surge in viewership for this show?

[Matt Bellamy]

You're stepping on my button on this episode. I'm going to make you predict what is Tuesday night's show going to rate? Total viewers. Total viewers.

[Lucas Shaw]

Those are two different questions. I think There will be a huge bump Tuesday night. I do not necessarily think that that will sustain.

[Matt Bellamy]

An average episode of Kimmel gets about 1.6, 1.7 million viewers. And that's live plus same day. Now, we know it gets a lot more in YouTube videos and all the other places that Jimmy has value, but what are we putting the over under on for the viewership of this episode?

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, the other thing that I guess is worth considering. Right. Is that the viewership factors in the full thing. And I feel like a lot of people are going to show up for the opening and then drop off.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. I don't know. Let's. Let's put the over under at 4, 4 to 5.

[Lucas Shaw]

I mean, because the thing like, I think the number of people who may tune in just for the opening could be pretty high. But it's hard to know with these in, in kind of the social era because you'll be able to watch the clip on the Internet almost immediately.

[Matt Bellamy]

We're going to see the headlines before the episode even airs because they have to tape it and there will be media and people in there that are reporting it out.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellamy]

So ultimately, the biggest factor here, I believe, is the Bob Iger factor. I think the fact that he was getting ripped by both the business community and the creative community and the political community and his very strong belief in his own integrity and the appearance of integrity and not wanting to be a pariah in that community. And I'm not saying it's fake. I think he actually does care about this stuff and very much cares about his legacy. And when he saw this going sideways, I think it accelerated the initiative to get Jimmy back. I would not be surprised if what Kimmel says on Tuesday is very similar to what he was going to say.

[Lucas Shaw]

Last Wednesday, but with maybe slightly less antagonism.

[Matt Bellamy]

Maybe. Yeah. And maybe not calling out Fox by name. Not that he can win over Fox. They're going to pounce and do whatever they want. But this is all dependent on how the Trump people respond. And if this becomes bigger or if they have their bluff called and they back away, it will be the first time they back down, right? Yes, certainly with the media companies. And maybe they start going after Comcast next. We don't know. All right, Lucas, thanks very much.

[Lucas Shaw]

Thanks, Matt.

[Matt Bellamy]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, Today we're doing NFL ratings. Honestly, I am a little confused by what I'm seeing so far. This new Nielsen big data panel system that they introduced this year for football was supposed to raise ratings. Most predictions were like 7 or 8% across the board. Just been counting more out of home viewership being more accurate in the people that they do count. So far it's been about half that. Most of the games so far average are up about 4%. So yes, it's been boosted and so far the season numbers are good and there was a record turnout for the Fox game, the Eagles versus the Chiefs in Week 2. But for the most part, I think this has been a little bit disappointing.

[Craig Horbeck]

Does this factor in every kind of of way you can watch the game? Like, are we talking about prime video for Thursday nights, like streaming the the game on YouTube? Is this factoring in all of that plus bar and restaurant viewing? All of that.

[Matt Bellamy]

Anything? Nielsen measures, they now have this big data panel that they use for.

[Craig Horbeck]

How is this different from two, three years ago? Like what, what is new in this big data panel?

[Matt Bellamy]

It's somewhat murky. They say that they are better counting via surveys and via in the on the ground reporting. Exactly who's watching. They started counting out of home viewership a couple years ago, which was a huge blind spot because obviously people watch sports in bars and restaurants and such. And now they say that they have a better measurement system for this. And it naturally is going to lead to more people being counted. It's just not as many as the league and the broadcast partners would have thought.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, to be honest, I'm not ready to say that. That's because the NFL is. Its popularity is slowing or anything like that.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Craig Horbeck]

To me, this is just. I don't really trust any of these, like data metrics and ratings mechanisms, whatever they have.

[Matt Bellamy]

You'd rather go back to people filling out a little booklet of what they're watching, which is what Nielsen used to do.

[Craig Horbeck]

No, to be honest, I feel like we've never been able to truly fit figure out ratings. And it's all a projection. And so even if it says that they're slightly down, even though they have this new big data formula, it's just hard. It's. I feel like it's hard for anyone to really trust what's going on if nobody actually knows.

[Matt Bellamy]

To be clear, they're not down, they're just not up as much as people thought.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, the projections are down. It's down from projections.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right. So my prediction today is that the season will be up 5%. The overall NFL regular season will. Will be up 5% by the end of the season, and they'll recover a little bit, but it won't be the 8 to 9% gains that people may have thought.

[Craig Horbeck]

Do you think the splintering of platforms to watch the NFL on is perhaps to blame for this?

[Matt Bellamy]

Maybe. Yeah, we'll see. As it gets more complicated as the season goes along, and there's foreign games early in the morning and then there's the YouTube exclusive or Peacock exclusive or whatever it is. I think the impact of them slicing and dicing more is that it is a little bit more confusing for people to find games. But the NFL has always balanced that correctly. You can still watch your local team for free on over the air broadcast and you can still watch the vast majority of them through your cable bundle. It's just now there's some extra stuff.

[Craig Horbeck]

I bet you it picks up. I think the start of the year has been weird. There was the Brazil game. There was a delay in the kickoff on Thursday. There was a YouTube exclusive game. There's a lot of international stuff.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, but there's been a lot of big matchups, too.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, but there's always big matchups. I think it's been harder to watch a lot of these games. I think they're betting on international. I think the Brazil game was weird and didn't. Didn't perform as well internationally because of the time of the game. I would bet that it ends, it lands where the projections originally thought, at 8 to 9%.

[Matt Bellamy]

All right, so you're going to take the over on 5%.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, I think. I think 8 to 9, wherever they projected it is right. And I think this was just been kind of a messy start just because of how much they've splintered a lot of these big games to start the season.

[Matt Bellamy]

All right, well, you are the football expert. Okay, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Lucas Shaw, producer Craig Horbeck, our editor Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. We'll see you a couple more times this week.

[Lucas Shaw]

Your teen adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained.

[Matt Bellamy]

One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly.

[Lucas Shaw]

They do not always show up on time, but when they arrive, you notice an individual confident in their contradictions. They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New team. The new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you.