Marvel’s Decline, Hollywood Vs. AI, and the Most Under-Covered Stories of 2025 So Far

Summary

The Town with Matthew Belloni: Marvel’s Decline, Hollywood Vs. AI, and the Most Under-Covered Stories of 2025 So Far

Released on June 23, 2025

In the latest episode of The Town with Matthew Belloni, host Matt Belloni teams up with Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg to delve into the undercovered stories shaping Hollywood in 2025. Moving beyond the mainstream narratives, Belloni and Shaw explore critical industry developments that deserve more attention. This detailed summary captures their insightful discussions, complete with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Disney and Universal's Lawsuit Against Midjourney: Hollywood vs. AI

One of the central topics of the episode is the significant lawsuit filed by Disney and Universal against Midjourney, an AI company. Belloni emphasizes the lawsuit's profound implications for the future of the entertainment industry.

Matt Belloni [03:29]: "The undercovered story of the year so far is the Disney and Universal lawsuit against Midjourney, the AI company. It is the most important thing that has happened for the future of the industry."

Belloni discusses how generative AI companies are pushing for court rulings that permit the use of copyrighted materials to create derivative works. He praises Disney and Universal for their aggressive stance, contrasting their approach with Warner Brothers' decision not to join the lawsuit.

Matt Belloni [04:18]: "Universal and Disney are the two most well-capitalized strongest of the traditional studios. They are not conflicted like Amazon and Netflix and some of these other tech companies. And the MPAA I don't think can be trusted on this matter because of the membership."

Shaw adds that Disney's collaboration with Comcast and Universal showcases a united front against AI overreach, highlighting the legal complexities surrounding fair use in AI-generated content.

2. The TikTok Ban: An Underspoken Issue

Belloni and Shaw shift focus to the political sphere, discussing the TikTok ban that has largely been ignored in media conversations. Despite Congress passing a law to ban the app and the Supreme Court upholding it, the President has failed to enforce the ban, leading to ongoing extensions.

Lucas Shaw [07:02]: "Congress passed a law banning the app. The Supreme Court said that the law was totally fine, and the President just ignored it."

The conversation touches on Trump's motivations, suggesting the ban is politically unpopular and that his administration seeks alternative models for controlling the app, potentially referencing the takeover of US Steel as a precedent.

Matt Belloni [07:43]: "Maybe Frank McCourt, our favorite former Dodger owner, will buy TikTok. Maybe we can get a deal at parking at Dodger Stadium if we are TikTok members."

3. The Decline of Marvel Studios and Superhero Fatigue

The discussion moves to Marvel Studios, where Belloni highlights the underperformance of recent blockbusters like Captain Brave New World and Thunderbolts. Both films hovered around the $400 million mark, significantly below previous Marvel hits.

Matt Belloni [08:22]: "If the new normal for Marvel movies is in this 400 to $500 million range, that is gonna have repercussions throughout the industry."

Shaw concurs, noting the shift in box office dynamics where even strong reviews and fan support aren't translating into expected grosses. They explore the broader impact on Disney and the theater industry, which has heavily relied on Marvel's success to sustain theater revenues.

Lucas Shaw [08:28]: "You'd like 700, 800 million was sort of the entry point for a lot of these Marvel movies, and now they're struggling to top 400."

4. The Rise of Chinese Cinema: Ney Zha 2 Takes the Lead

One of the standout undercovered stories is the unprecedented success of the Chinese film Ney Zha 2, which grossed over $2 billion domestically. Belloni and Shaw discuss the implications of this achievement for the global film market.

Lucas Shaw [11:07]: "A Chinese movie grossed more than $2 billion. It stayed near the top of the charts for literally months."

They analyze how the dominance of domestic films in China poses challenges for US movies, especially as other countries may follow suit with their own high-performing original content. The conversation underscores rising nationalism and its potential threat to the US movie industry's international success.

Lucas Shaw [11:23]: "China continues to be a challenging market for US movies. They now have these originals that do better than the US movies there."

5. Jack Black: An Underrated Star Powerhouse

Another undercovered story highlighted is the rising star power of Jack Black. Belloni argues that Black's consistent performances are a significant driving force behind successful family-oriented films, yet he remains overshadowed by Hollywood's more celebrated actors.

Matt Belloni [13:06]: "It is undeniable now that he is a major movie star. Never gets talked about in the same terms as Leo or Brad Pitt or any of those guys."

Shaw challenges this view, suggesting that while Black is influential, attributing blockbuster success solely to him may overstate his impact. Nonetheless, Belloni maintains that Jack Black deserves more recognition for his contributions to family-friendly cinema.

Matt Belloni [14:01]: "I think Jack Black is the quintessential value add. He is the quintessential value add."

6. The Flop of Electric State: Russo Brothers' Misstep

The episode also covers the disappointing release of Electric State, an expensive project by the Russo brothers. Despite significant marketing efforts, the film failed to make a cultural impact or recoup its investment.

Matt Belloni [17:20]: "This incredibly expensive movie set up at one studio... it was just a thud."

Shaw criticizes the choice of project, pointing out the lack of a strong franchise or established IP to support its success. The conversation highlights the Russo brothers' ongoing struggles outside the Marvel universe, despite their previous successes.

7. The Resurgence of PG Movies: Targeting the Family Market

Belloni and Shaw observe a noticeable trend towards PG-rated movies, which have proven to be highly successful by explicitly targeting family audiences. This shift contrasts with the previous focus on PG-13 ratings aiming to attract both adults and teens.

Matt Belloni [20:00]: "There was this whole shift towards trying to get Everybody with the PG13 rating. And now it's like, it's okay, we can go PG, we can just appeal to families and we can still make $900 million."

Shaw notes that the most successful films of the year have been children’s movies, emphasizing the profitability of family-oriented content.

Lucas Shaw [21:18]: "I agree it is notable that all the most successful movies this year are for kids."

8. Spotify's Market Valuation Surpasses Major Media Giants

An unexpected undercovered story is Spotify's soaring market valuation, now surpassing that of Comcast and other major media companies. Despite Spotify's significant influence in the media landscape, it hasn't received commensurate media attention.

Lucas Shaw [22:21]: "Spotify is now worth more than Comcast and every media company that isn't Disney and Netflix. People haven't really paid attention to that."

Belloni humorously notes that while some may overlook this milestone, insiders like their producer Craig Horbeck are keenly aware of Spotify's burgeoning value.

9. Maverick Carter’s Challenge to the NBA

The conversation touches on Maverick Carter's ambitious attempts to compete with the NBA by establishing a rival league. Although faced with significant obstacles, including corporate mergers and NBA resistance, Carter continues to push forward without formally withdrawing his efforts.

Lucas Shaw [22:55]: "I'm not saying it's overvalued sell Spotify?"

Lucas Shaw [22:55]: "Another one I'd say is I feel like the whole Maverick Carter is competing with the NBA got kind of undercovered."

10. The Lingering Impact of the LA Fires on Hollywood

Finally, Belloni and Shaw address the long-term effects of the LA fires, which have had profound implications for the entertainment industry. From disrupted productions and displaced workers to ongoing struggles in rebuilding efforts, the fires continue to cast a shadow over Hollywood's operational stability.

Matt Belloni [23:23]: "The repercussions of this story have played out in a number of ways... it has pretty big implications for the broader entertainment industry."

Shaw muses on the dual nature of the fires as both a human tragedy and an industry challenge, questioning whether the fallout has fundamentally altered the mechanics of Hollywood or primarily affected its workforce and infrastructure.

Lucas Shaw [25:00]: "It's not back to normal, certainly. And this is the more dangerous point where... you're starting to see all the real estate speculators, like, come in and buy the land because people have woken up to realize, like, oh, I'm gonna have to wait several years before I can do anything."

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Conclusion

In this episode of The Town with Matthew Belloni, the conversation with Lucas Shaw sheds light on several pivotal yet underreported stories in Hollywood. From the legal battles surrounding AI and copyright to shifting market dynamics favoring family-oriented PG movies, and from the surprising rise of Spotify to the sustained impact of environmental disasters like the LA fires, Belloni and Shaw provide a comprehensive analysis of the forces reshaping the entertainment industry in 2025. Their discussions underscore the importance of looking beyond mainstream headlines to understand the nuanced developments affecting Hollywood’s present and future.

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Notable Quotes:

• Matt Belloni [03:32]: "This is real AI is here. These generative AI companies absolutely want court rulings that will allow them to use whatever they want and create their own images based on the copyrighted materials."

• Lucas Shaw [07:02]: "Congress passed a law banning the app. The Supreme Court said that the law was totally fine, and the President just ignored it."

• Matt Belloni [08:22]: "If the new normal for Marvel movies is in this 400 to $500 million range, that is gonna have repercussions throughout the industry."

• Lucas Shaw [11:07]: "A Chinese movie grossed more than $2 billion. It stayed near the top of the charts for literally months."

• Matt Belloni [13:06]: "It is undeniable now that he is a major movie star. Never gets talked about in the same terms as Leo or Brad Pitt or any of those guys."

• Matt Belloni [17:20]: "This incredibly expensive movie set up at one studio... it was just a thud."

• Matt Belloni [20:00]: "There was this whole shift towards trying to get Everybody with the PG13 rating. And now it's like, it's okay, we can go PG, we can just appeal to families and we can still make $900 million."

• Lucas Shaw [22:21]: "Spotify is now worth more than Comcast and every media company that isn't Disney and Netflix. People haven't really paid attention to that."

• Matt Belloni [23:23]: "The repercussions of this story have played out in a number of ways... it has pretty big implications for the broader entertainment industry."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the insightful dialogue between Belloni and Shaw, highlighting the critical yet underreported stories influencing Hollywood's trajectory in 2025.

Transcript

[Matt Bellany]

If you care about Hollywood, and I assume you do, if you're listening to the Town, you should really be getting the whole story about Hollywood. That's what you get with Puck. I'm a founding partner Puck and I write a newsletter called what I'm Hearing. It's got exclusive news for insiders and analysis of the biggest stories. Puck has a bunch of great journalists. We just hired Kim Masters who also covers Hollywood from the inside, plus media, sports, fashion, politics and finance. It's a must have for plugged in people. Fans of the Town get a discount on the description page of this episode or at Puck News thetown. Go further into Hollywood by becoming a Puck member. Today, this episode of the Town is presented by Max. For your consideration, Max presents the HBO original Mountainhead from the creator of succession, Mountainhead stars Steve Carell, Jason Schwartzman, Cory Michael Smith and Rami Youssef as four rival tech billionaires gather for their annual mountain retreat. But when one of their AI platforms sparks a global crisis, their boys weekend spirals into chaos. The future of humanity may be a game to them, but billions of lives are on the table. Emmy eligible for outstanding television movie and all other categories now streaming on Max. This episode is brought to you by NBC. Presenting Saturday Night Live, which celebrated its 50th anniversary season with primetime specials, unforgettable live sketches and legendary musical performances, returning cast members and the biggest stars of the last half century. Emmy eligible in all categories including outstanding scripted variety series and outstanding variety Special Live, all SNL 50 episodes and special programming is streaming on Peacock. It is Monday, June 23rd. Last week on the show, Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg and I, we went through our over covered list. These are the narratives in Hollywood that have gotten outsized attention, maybe a little bit too much attention. This week we're gonna do the opposite. We're gonna go through the undercovered list, the under reaction list, things that the industry should be talking about more and maybe aren't or maybe things that were not covered at all and should have been. Everything from the AI War to the state of superhero movies. So today is part two of the over attention and under attention. Listen, what's being undercovered by the industry from the ringer and Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. All right, we are back with Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg for the second half of our overrated and underrated storylines of 2025 so far. Welcome, Lucas.

[Lucas Shaw]

Great to be here. What gets your juices flowing more, the over or the under?

[Matt Bellany]

I think the over. But you know what the over. Yeah, just because I like taking shots at the coverage. And I know you do, too, even though you, like, pretend to take the high road and like, oh, I don't like media on media violence.

[Lucas Shaw]

I don't.

[Matt Bellany]

You respond to people on Twitter all the time.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yes, but I used to. I used to criticize other people's stories, which I do not do anymore.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, I try not to, but I cannot resist.

[Lucas Shaw]

Every once in a while. Yes, every once in a while I do. And I usually feels bad and I.

[Matt Bellany]

And then if you come after me, I'm coming back. Like, I gotta respond. Yeah, but. All right, enough of that. Nobody cares. Let's go on to the under reactions of the year. And I'm gonna start because I feel like we may have some overlap here. Okay, I'm gonna say the undercovered story of the year so far is the Disney and Universal lawsuit against Midjourney, the.

[Lucas Shaw]

AI company the Undercover. It just happened.

[Matt Bellany]

It happened a couple weeks ago. But it is the story of the year. It is the most important thing that has happened for the future of the industry. And I feel like it is not being properly contextualized. This is real AI is here. These generative AI companies absolutely want court rulings that will allow them to use whatever they want and create their own images based on the copyrighted materials.

[Lucas Shaw]

And.

[Matt Bellany]

And this is the line in the sand. And shame on Warner Brothers for not joining this lawsuit. But Disney and Universal, kudos to them. They are actually being aggressive about this. Horatio Gutierrez, the general counsel of Disney, is leading this. And this is the most important news development of the year.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. Disney has been at the center of it. They're the ones who recruited Comcast and Universal to get on board. My feelings are conflicted because I do think that defending copyright and the relationship between AI companies and studios is important and fair use. And so I'd probably defer to you as the lawyer.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, no, they're going, but I mean, we don't know.

[Lucas Shaw]

I just feel like midjourney is like kind of a peripheral bad actor.

[Matt Bellany]

But that's why you go after them. No, I get it. They are going to be the least funded. They're going to have the worst lawyers. You're going to be able to use them to get a favorable ruling, hopefully.

[Lucas Shaw]

And.

[Matt Bellany]

And that is why you go after them. You also. They're being very smart. They're not focusing on the first part of the equation, which is using the copyrighted materials for their search. They're focusing on the end result, the product that they put out, which is a use of copyrighted materials to create images that are derivative works. That is their argument.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you believe that this was done at least in part, because the Trump administration has also signaled that it doesn't really care about copyright?

[Matt Bellany]

Well, it's not just the Trump administration. You have some rulings that have come out that have actually been some pro AI rulings where they're saying this may be fair use.

[Lucas Shaw]

That is unsettled legal terrain as to what it. What is fair use or not. And people. There had been a ruling that was coming out or a memorandum, whatever, from the Copyright office that, that said it's not fair use, that these AI companies do have to pay for it. And then they fired the head of the copyright office, which was a signal because Trump has all the. Has sort of the Andreessen, David Sachs people in his ear saying, let the tech companies do whatever they want. It's a national security issue.

[Matt Bellany]

Right. And I think that that was a signal to the studios. And Universal and Disney are the two most well capitalized strongest of the traditional studios. They're not conflicted like Amazon and Netflix and some of these other tech companies are. And the MPAA I don't think can be trusted on this matter because of the membership. There's seven members. Two of them now are these tech companies, Amazon and Netflix. So they did it on their own and good for them. And I think that that is, as this case unfolds, it's going to be the most important thing for the future.

[Lucas Shaw]

Of the industry trying to decide now, I was going to have something else first, but I feel like we should stay in the political sphere.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay.

[Lucas Shaw]

So I'm gonna say I think the fact that the TikTok ban just got ignored is a weirdly undercovered story. Like Congress passed a law banning the app. The Supreme Court said that the law was totally fine, and the President just ignored it. And it's gotten lost in all the other Trump stuff that we are just ignoring the fact that this app got banned.

[Matt Bellany]

Wait, didn't they have an extension, though?

[Lucas Shaw]

Yes, they keep having this extension because. Which is a way for them to not enforce it.

[Matt Bellany]

Hmm.

[Lucas Shaw]

Trump is just trying to kick this out so that he doesn't have to do it because it's politically unpopular.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. And his fans won't be able to make Trump TikToks.

[Lucas Shaw]

And he has all of this noise about, you know, being tough on. Being tough on China, but he doesn't want to take. And I'm not even, I'm not even coming down and saying it should be banned. I just think that if you have a law saying it's banned, you should follow the law.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. And maybe they're looking at this Nip and Steel takeover of US Steel, where the Trump administration has, like, muscled its way into this deal and, like, gotten a lot of power over what the.

[Lucas Shaw]

US now has a piece of it. It's fucking outrageous.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. It's insane. But maybe they're looking at that as a model for TikTok. Maybe Frank McCourt, our favorite former Dodger owner, will buy TikTok. Maybe we can get a deal at parking at Dodger Stadium if we are TikTok members.

[Lucas Shaw]

It was always the funniest when he pretended he was going to be the guy who buys TikTok.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes. And it's always funny when he pretends to be a high quality businessman when we know what he did to the Dodgers.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, he made a lot of money, but, yes, he was a terrible owner.

[Matt Bellany]

All right, I'm going to move on to my second underreaction of the year, and that is the weakness at Marvel Studios.

[Lucas Shaw]

I had this. I was debating it. I ended up not doing it. But superhero movies not working this year is a big story.

[Matt Bellany]

So. Yeah. And it's crazy. If you look at the two big Marvel movies from this year, Captain Brave New World and Thunderbolts, like, they're both hovering around 400 million, which is not enough. And Thunderbolts was supposedly good and got quality reviews.

[Lucas Shaw]

It was a fun movie.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Bob Iger said it was an example of the next phase of Marvel and how quality. And it just kind of petered out. And if the new normal for Marvel movies is in this 400 to $500 million range, that is gonna have repercussions throughout the industry, not just for Disney, which is gonna have to bring down the cost of these movies if they are not gonna generate the outsize grosses. But for the theater industry, Marvel has been the thing keeping these theaters alive. And I just don't. I don't think it's getting enough attention.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, part of it is that we've spoken about superhero fatigue so many times over the last few years. And it was always sort of a questionable story because you'd have. You'd have some movies not work and some movies be huge. And even the ones that didn't work, like, the numbers were strong enough that describing it as superhero fatigue felt a little off. But we are now at a point where those movies released five, six years ago, you would have wanted them combined to be the result for each one. Right. You'd like 700, 800 million was sort of the entry point for a lot of these Marvel movies, and now they're struggling to top 400. So. I agree. I just don't know. Like, Disney's obviously not going to back away from making Marvel movies. And so can they really bring the cost down? I mean, if you look at it, the only bankable genre at the box office this year has been kids movies. All of the biggest movies are kids movies.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, that. You're stepping on my under another under reaction. But yes, that's true. But a lot of these have been game movies and other ip, not hero movies.

[Lucas Shaw]

Sure. It's Minecraft. It's how to Train youn Dragon. It's Lilo and Stitch. It's. And keep in point. None of them. None of them original.

[Matt Bellany]

True, but interesting. Disney placed a story in the New York Times after Lilo and Stitch came out about how cost effective that movie was. Sort of sidestepping the fact that it was originally greenlit for streaming and was elevated. But yes, they are. They were pushing that narrative because they know the knock on most Disney movies, including the Marvel movies, is that they are wildly expensive.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. Okay. I'm glad I've arranged it this way. Cause now my next one is also a movie one.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, go ahead.

[Lucas Shaw]

What is the highest grossing movie of the year?

[Matt Bellany]

Minecraft, right?

[Lucas Shaw]

No. Ney Zha 2.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, yeah. Oh, you know what? Whatever.

[Lucas Shaw]

A Chinese movie grossed more than $2 billion. It stayed near the top of the charts for literally months. It was like two months after it opened. I'd still get the news update like Neisha back at top at the Chinese box office.

[Matt Bellany]

But, like, the government is telling people to go see it. It's like the equivalent of Trump putting a Tesla on the White House lawn.

[Lucas Shaw]

But we've spent like 5% as much time talking about the most successful movie in Chinese history as we have talking about Sinners. And the fact is, China continues to be a challenging market for US movies. They now have these originals that do better than the US movies there, which has been a big story over the last few years. And I think the other question is, what happens when other countries replicate this?

[Matt Bellany]

You think they can? I don't think they can.

[Lucas Shaw]

Not at that scale. Because their domestic markets aren't big enough.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, that's the thing is how much did that movie do outside of China? Not very much.

[Lucas Shaw]

Not that much. But more than Chinese movies before it.

[Matt Bellany]

Okay, but that was more of a curiosity factor. Like, what is this movie that GROSS, you know, $2 billion.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. But the Indian market is basically only India. The Chinese market is turning to be only China. I think that nationalism is generally on the rise and that is a concern for, for the US Movie business.

[Matt Bellany]

Interesting. Well, you hear it all the time how the international market is not, you know, driving the entire industry like it once did because you have to take out China and Russia as you know, they were reliable markets before and Now Russia's A0 and China is a big question mark. But yeah, I agree it's not as easy. But you know what? Some of these movies now, maybe it'll change the calculus and the domestic market being more important will lead to more domestic oriented movies coming out.

[Lucas Shaw]

Movies like sinners comedies, bring them back comedies.

[Matt Bellany]

Craig will be so excited. All right, let's go to my next one. And it's also movie related. An underrated story of this year is the star power of Jack Black.

[Lucas Shaw]

Black, you're carrying Louis K's water.

[Matt Bellany]

I know Louis was on the show, but this I, I swear I am not carrying Lewis's water. It is undeniable now that he is four children. He is a major movie star. Never gets talked about in the same terms of like Leo or Brad Pitt or any of those guys. He is in that age group, 55 years old and four kids. If you look at the Jumanji movies, those movies gross like 900, 800, $900 million. Obviously Minecraft had other things going for it, but I don't think Minecraft gets anywhere near $950 million if Jack Black is not in that movie.

[Craig Horbeck]

You think Jack Black should be in the same conversation as Leonardo DiCaprio and.

[Matt Bellany]

Brad Pitt for kids movies? Yes, absolutely.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, but that's not the same category as Leo and Brad Pitt.

[Matt Bellany]

He is as much of a value add for that demo as Brad Pitt is for the dad demo.

[Lucas Shaw]

It's hard for me to believe that. It's hard to give him credit for. Okay, so Minecraft, yes, I'm sure he helped a little bit, but that was very much about the game.

[Matt Bellany]

It was. But that dumb song was a Billboard chart song.

[Lucas Shaw]

Super Mario Brothers. People probably didn't even remember that he was know that he was in it.

[Matt Bellany]

I disagree. I think he was a big ad.

[Lucas Shaw]

And Jumanji, he's the third lead. That's a Dwayne Kevin Hart and he's the third. Look, I love Jack Black. I think he's great. But there isn't a franchise where I feel or one of these movies where it's like, he is the reason that people are going where, like, he is the star. He is carrying it.

[Matt Bellany]

I think that underestimates that kids love him.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, could be.

[Craig Horbeck]

So you just think he deserves more respect?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, I do.

[Craig Horbeck]

I think he is at the top of the Dwayne Johnson category, you know, of the guys in these, like, kid focused, actiony movies that do really well. But much like animated movies and children's movies are not in the same category as movies like Sinners and movies that get nominated for best picture. I don't think Jack Black is in the same conversation as what Leo and Brad Pitt and those people do to movies.

[Matt Bellany]

But my point is he should be. Four kids movies.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, four kids movies. That is the caveat.

[Lucas Shaw]

I think the problem with Brad Pitt, including Brad Pitt, is from a fame standpoint, he's there, but he doesn't necessarily have the track record of opening movies in the same way.

[Matt Bellany]

No, never.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. Same with Clooney. Like, they're really great actors or they're really like, they're very charismatic movie stars, I should say. But they are sort of the movie stars of the 90s. Vintage, where putting them in a movie doesn't guarantee it works.

[Craig Horbeck]

Who are the past? Jack Black. So, Matt, if you're saying Jack Black is number one right now for children, for children's movies, who are the former versions of him over the 90s and 2000s?

[Matt Bellany]

I'd say Robin Williams at one point because, you know, from Aladdin and Patch Adams and movies like that. Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey might be there now because of Sonic.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah. I just wonder if that proves Lucas's point that there usually isn't a person themselves that drive kids to the theaters. It's more just what the movie is.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, but you have to have that value add. And I think Jack Black is the quintessential value add.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah, he's at the top of the list.

[Lucas Shaw]

He's the best seasoning. He's. He's artisanal sea salt.

[Matt Bellany]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting the Diplomat from writer and creator Deborah Kahn. Kerry Russell and Rufus Sewell return with Allison Janney joining in the explosive second season as US Ambassador Kate Weiler navigates high stakes diplomacy and a fraught marriage in search of the truth. The Guardian lauds the Diplomat, a masterclass in storytelling, and Indiewire hails it one of the best shows of the year for your Emmy consideration. This episode of the Town is brought to you by Hulu presenting Paradise. Paradise is Hulu's critically acclaimed addictive drama series starring Sterling K. Brown, Julianne Nicholson, and James Marsden, filled with nail biting twists and turns. The Daily Beast calls Paradise your next TV obsession, and the New York Times says it's exhilarating in all the right ways. Paradise is for your Emmy consideration in all categories, including outstanding Drama series. For more information, view visit fyc.hulu.com all right, your turn.

[Lucas Shaw]

Do you feel like we didn't spend enough time talking about the bomb that was Electric State?

[Matt Bellany]

I feel like we talked about it a lot, although we were in the minority here. I was banging this drum months before that movie came out, and it came and went, but I don't know. You're saying we need to talk about the Russo brothers. More on the show when you have.

[Lucas Shaw]

This incredibly expensive movie that they'd set up at one studio.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Universal wouldn't make it with Millie Bobby Brown starring. It got too expensive. She's not a theatrical movie star.

[Lucas Shaw]

Netflix takes it, and they'll call us and tell us it did fine.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, no, I don't even think they will. Do you think Dan Lin gives two shits about the Electric State? He didn't greenlight it.

[Lucas Shaw]

He doesn't, no. And it just. It was after Mission Impossible, probably the second most expensive movie released this year, and it didn't make any impact on culture at all.

[Matt Bellany]

And that's despite a pretty hefty press rollout. Like, Netflix typically doesn't do this. They sent the stars around the world, they did commercials, they did a ton of stuff, and it was just a thud.

[Lucas Shaw]

It's just the perfect testament for the. To the type of movie that Netflix doesn't need to be making. Or if they're going to make it, they should make it at, like, a third of the price.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. Or have some real IP behind it. Have a real franchise. Like, nobody knew what this Electric State was. And the Russos, you know, they. They think they're huge filmmakers because of the Marvel stuff, but what have the Russos done outside of Marvel? Almost nothing.

[Lucas Shaw]

No, they do have that. Extraction.

[Matt Bellany]

Extraction. They have extraction.

[Lucas Shaw]

Between that and Citadel, they have two of the biggest disasters of the last five years.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes. And now they're making two more Avengers movies. By the way, they're shooting in Bahrain. They're shooting the new event. That's got to be just a play to get someone to invest in their AI Company, right?

[Lucas Shaw]

Could be.

[Matt Bellany]

I mean, they. They clearly want more money for their companies. They've done rounds of financing.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, they sold a big chunk of their business at a crazy, inflated Price during sort of the peak of that moment. And yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

Unbelievable.

[Lucas Shaw]

They've been very good at getting paid. I gotta give em credit.

[Matt Bellany]

Done a lot with a little. We should give an award at the end of the year. Done the most with the least.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. A new townie category.

[Matt Bellany]

Did the most with the least. All right. You kind of stepped on my other underreacted story. The rise of the PG movie.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. You wanted to do a whole episode about this and I didn't know where we were going to go with that.

[Matt Bellany]

A year or two ago we were talking about the potential that family audience was gone forever.

[Lucas Shaw]

That they just stay home.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. There had not been an original animated hit and that the family market had showed signs of weakness post Covid. And I think the past six to eight months have really shown that family audience is definitely there and they will show up if you give them something that is worth them showing up for. And I know it's like these PG movies, it's sort of a coincidence that they're coming out all at once with Minecraft and these two animated adaptations. But it does say something about the shift in the market that when you are going explicitly after that young audience, the PG conveys something to the audience that this is a family movie a little bit older than the animated stuff. But I think the industry is still specifically targeting that family demo in a more sophisticated way right now. That is delivering.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. The superhero movies and the kids. I had lower down on my list. Just I didn't know 100% what the significance or broader takeaway was. But I agree it is notable that all the most successful movies this year are for kids. I don't know that you really think studios are doing a different strategy. I mean they remade how to Train youn Dragon. They remade Lilo and Stitch. That's. This feels like a pretty age old Hollywood strategy.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. But I think maybe in a previous era you might have seen the studios position these as PG13 to try to get more adults and more of the teen crowd.

[Lucas Shaw]

Got it. You think that the sort of. They've shifted a little bit from the Pixar model of actually get the parents in with the kids.

[Matt Bellany]

Right. And appeal explicitly to the parents. Where now it's just like this is for families. Come in, bring the whole family. And the PG rating is part of that.

[Lucas Shaw]

Right. And this will be I guess reinforced when. Although Elio is for really little kids too. Right. That's not really a parent movie.

[Matt Bellany]

No. But it's also pg. I mean there are some scary moments in it. So maybe that's why. But I also. I just think that there was this whole shift towards trying to get Everybody with the PG13 rating. And now it's like, it's okay, we can go pg, we can just appeal to families and we can still make $900 million.

[Lucas Shaw]

We're all getting dumber. So let's just.

[Matt Bellany]

All right, you go again.

[Lucas Shaw]

It's going to be weird saying it on this particular show, but the fact that Spotify is now worth more than Comcast and every media company that isn't Disney and Netflix, I feel like gets Spotify has just been on a total fucking heater. And I don't think people have woken up to realize it.

[Matt Bellany]

You think it's overvalued sell Spotify?

[Lucas Shaw]

No, I'm not.

[Matt Bellany]

I think Shaw the town.

[Lucas Shaw]

I'm not saying it's overvalued. I think that because of all the focus on Netflix and YouTube, people haven't really paid attention to the fact that Spotify is now one of the most valuable media companies in the world.

[Matt Bellany]

Craig's paid attention.

[Lucas Shaw]

I'm sure he has.

[Matt Bellany]

His stock options are going way up.

[Lucas Shaw]

Another one I'd say is I feel like the whole Maverick Carter is competing with the NBA got kind of undercovered where the business partner of the biggest star in the league in the world is trying to set up a competitive league to it.

[Matt Bellany]

But didn't they shut that down?

[Lucas Shaw]

They didn't shut it down, but when the NBA said they were going into Europe, which was a big part of the plan, I think some of the momentum came out of the sales. But no, yeah, that's.

[Matt Bellany]

That's to shit all over him.

[Lucas Shaw]

Maverick hasn't said like, I'm not doing this anymore.

[Matt Bellany]

No, I don't think he has to. I mean he. And also he's in retreat mode. Like the. The whole spring hill had to merge with full well. And yeah, I. That it's not been a great first half of the year for Maverick. And the NBA probably saw that and said, excuse me, who the hell do you think you are?

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, I don't think they liked it.

[Matt Bellany]

No. All right. My last one is going to be an overarching one that I think the repercussions of this story are still reverberating and has amazingly been undercovered considering all of the volume and that is the impact of the LA fires. I know it was covered ad nauseam by you, me, everybody, but I think since the fires in January, we have seen that the repercussions of this story have played out in a number of ways. Everything from the increased effort to get tax credits passed in California, which is still pending, to all of the displacement and the people that are raising the red flag about will the industry survive the production days being down, you know, people that you and I both know considering whether to rebuild or move. All of that stuff is still playing out, and it has pretty big implications for the broader entertainment industry. And even with all the coverage, still seems like an undercovered story.

[Lucas Shaw]

I thought about it. You know, we are in the point of the sort of the news cycle where everyone has moved on, and it's like, oh, yeah, that happened several months ago.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, I thought that would be this story. Honestly, when it was happening, I was like, oh, in six months it'll be back to normal. But it's not.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, it's not back to normal, certainly. And this is the more dangerous point where, you know, you're starting to see all the real estate speculators, like, come in and buy the land because people have woken up to realize, like, oh, I'm gonna have to wait several years before I can do anything. I guess my question about it was, and I struggled with this at the time, is it a big industry story or is it just a big human and local story? And because this is the home of the industry, it sort of matters.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, it's both.

[Lucas Shaw]

But it doesn't feel like it has impacted the mechanics of the entertainment business that much. It has impacted the people.

[Matt Bellany]

I think it definitely has because it's impacted so many people and everything. All the layoffs that are going on at these studios, you know, that you always hear about the impact on the fire people. And I just think it's all part of a larger narrative of. Of people are decline. Yeah, it really is. It's a narrative of decline. And I think that that is impactful.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah. Well, they come to us for. To be the voices of. Of optimism and cheer.

[Matt Bellany]

Yes, everybody says that. I hear it everywhere. Craig, do you feel like we have properly covered the Ana de Armas awards campaign that will likely stem from her performance in Ballerina?

[Craig Horbeck]

Well, we have the next eight months to cover it.

[Matt Bellany]

We do. The momentum starts here. Even though it kind of flopped, the momentum starts here.

[Craig Horbeck]

I blame Mission Impossible for that. It's not.

[Matt Bellany]

Oh, you do? Really?

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah. It was too. It's the only other movie that's known for crazy stunts. Having them come out two weeks apart was not a smart decision.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. I also think calling the movie Ballerina probably not smart. Well, I don't mind that, but like the regular action fan. Like, they kind of didn't know what it was. And like, it is.

[Craig Horbeck]

Isn't it called from the world of John Wick or something?

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, but that was never. That was never what people called it. People called it ballerina.

[Lucas Shaw]

Have we appropriately covered Versant? Name that not even everyone can agree on how to pronounce it.

[Matt Bellany]

Isn't it Versant?

[Lucas Shaw]

I think it's Versant, but, you know, I'll let other people tell me if I'm wrong. Versant sounds like you're trying to make it sound French.

[Matt Bellany]

I know. And I think we appropriately covered the David Zaslav implosion of war.

[Lucas Shaw]

That got covered exhaustively. You did, like, four newsletters on.

[Matt Bellany]

I know, but you know what? Big deal.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellany]

And lots of repercussions.

[Lucas Shaw]

Did we talk about Amazon or Apple at all?

[Matt Bellany]

They haven't had that many big movies. That's why. And the shows and like, they're not going to get Emmy nominations, so it's. They're kind of in a dormant.

[Lucas Shaw]

Well, Apple will get Emmy nominations. You're gonna get nominated.

[Matt Bellany]

Apple's gonna get a lot. They're gonna. I think that's gonna be the narrative from the Emmy.

[Lucas Shaw]

Noms, severance, the studio, maybe your friends and neighbors.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah. And shrinking.

[Lucas Shaw]

I think they have a real. They have a real shot to win best comedy, don't they?

[Matt Bellany]

I am a biased participant in the studio, so I cannot offer my opinion, but I. I would say yes. All right. Thanks, Lucas.

[Lucas Shaw]

Thanks, Matt.

[Matt Bellany]

All right, no call sheet today. I want to thank my guest, Lucas Shaw, producer Craig Horbeck, our editor Jesse Lynn, and I want to thank you. We'll see you one more time this week. The Town is supported by FX's say Nothing now, nominated for four BAFTA TV awards. Based on the book by Patrick Radden Keefe, the Peabody Award nominee is a story of murder and memory in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Following Dolores and Marion Price, it explores the extremes some people will go to in the name of their beliefs and how a deeply divided society can suddenly tip over into armed conflict. Time calls say Nothing exceptional. An urgently timely work of political art. All episodes streaming on Hulu.