← The Town with Matthew Belloni
The Town with Matthew Belloni
'Michael’s' Big Win, the Reshoot Drama, and Sequel Hurdles with Lionsgate’s Film Head
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting Beef from creator, writer and director Lee Seung Jin. The latest installment of the eight time Emmy winning anthology series features an all new cast with an all new beef starring Oscar Isaac, Carey Mulligan, Charles Melton, Kalee Spaeny and legendary Korean actors Yoon Yu Jung and Song Kang Ho. Esquire raves it's hands down the best TV show of the year and USA Today hails it an exquisite masterpiece Beef for your Emmy Awards consideration, This episode of the Town is presented to you by AMC Networks. Billy Magnuson and Zach Galifianakis star in the new series the Audacity on AMC and amc. Plus Influence rises, people unravel and CEO meltdowns are business as usual among Silicon Valley elite. Executive produced by Jonathan Glatzer, a writer producer of Succession and Better Call Saul. Watch new episodes of the Audacity Sundays exclusively on AMC and AMC. It is Wednesday, April 29, the massive opening weekend for the Michael Jackson movie. Michael $218 million worldwide. It was a big win for many parts of the Michael Jackson industrial complex, Ram King, the producer of Michael, the director Antoine Fuqua, the Jackson estate, which for years has wanted exactly this kind of image reclamation project after the disaster of the Leaving Neverland documentary, even if the movie ultimately cost $200 million to produce due to a legal entanglement that with an accuser that required the film's third act to be completely redone and reshot. But maybe the biggest winner here is Lionsgate, the studio that co, financed, produced and released Michael in the U.S. universal has the movie overseas. Lionsgate took a big chance on this project when it was shopped back in 2021, right after leaving Neverland, when Jackson was thought to be radioactive after decades of sexual abuse allegations, which the estate has long denied. A bunch of other studios passed on Michael, but Lionsgate, considered an independent or mini major studio, it has a history of taking on controversial projects. It released Fahrenheit 9 11, the Michael Moore documentary that became a massive hit. And after Disney refused to release it, they also did Religulous, that Bill Maher documentary about organized religion that was controversial. They're currently in production on the Resurrection of the Christ, which will be a two part Jesus movie directed by Mel Gibson. And now Michael is paying off big time with a sequel almost surely on the way. We'll talk about that. And Lionsgate is an interesting company because it's gone through a lot of corporate machinations over the years, combined with the Starz streaming service a few years ago Then uncombined, all with an eye on potentially selling itself. But after years of stagnation, the movie division has been on a nice run lately. It had the House made in December, which grossed $400 million worldwide. Another now you see me. It's got a big Hunger Games movie this fall. More John Wick is on the way, a new Rambo, a bunch of other kind of mini franchises. And a lot of that success can be attributed to Adam Fogelson. He didn't greenlight Michael, but he shepherded the project through one of the all time biggest challenges in movie history, and he managed to land that plane successfully. Adam's a veteran studio executive. He ran Universal in the late 2000s, then went to STX and has been running the film side at Lionsgate since early 2024. I wanted to have him on the show to get all the backstory here, how they turn one long movie into potentially two, and how that second movie will engage with the allegations against Jackson. What's next for Lionsgate? All the questions I've got today, it's Adam Vogelson and the small studio with a very big hit from the ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellamy and this is the town. All right, we are here with Adam Fogelson, who is the chairman of the Lionsgate Motion Picture Group. Did I get that title right?
- [03:57]
B
You did. You did. Oh, perfectly. Thank you.
- [03:59]
A
And do you want to start with a victory lap? Like imagine, I imagine you looking at the numbers and just exhaling, like two, three years of exhale.
- [04:09]
B
There was definitely a sense of joy and relief that we had finally given birth to this baby.
- [04:15]
A
And not just given birth, but that it worked. Yeah, no, a lot of things had to go right for this to work. Given that everything that had gone wrong,
- [04:23]
B
I certainly understood all of the fascination that went on through the production process. It was a fascinating process, but there were a number of points along the way that made us very confident the movie was going to work
- [04:40]
A
and you started to see performance footage.
- [04:41]
B
Well, Antoine signing on was a big deal. When Graham came to the office to show us, it wasn't an official screen test, but he showed us Jafar not made up, just being Michael, both in movement and in mannerism and voice. And I think for me personally, that was probably the scariest question. Who could play the. Can you find someone who cannot be an imitator, but who can? And people are referring to it as channeling, and there is a lot of that in what I see. So when we saw that, that was a big deal. When we debuted footage at Cinemacon, the feeling I had in that room. And Universal showed a similar piece at Cine Europe. At that point, I really believed that we were gonna have something that an audience was gonna go crazy for. There were twists and turns along the way.
- [05:35]
A
We'll talk about some of those.
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B
But I was just excited to finally get to the point where it was people seeing the movie that was made and being able to react to it. And we were confident that there was going to be a big number. You yourself predicted that tracking probably couldn't capture all of the genuine enthusiasm for it. But as Thursday moved into Friday moved into Saturday, it was one of those rare times where there was nothing but joy.
- [06:01]
A
I've known you a long time, and I was thinking back to when I was doing the first reporting on this movie, both the script and what the movie was intended to be, and then what the movie became when this legal issue came up. And I was trying to think of the anger scale that you must have experienced. Where on the anger scale? Let's say the zero is Don Draper Zen moment on the coast. Ten is Lewis Black in Inside Out. Where were you on the anger scale?
- [06:31]
B
What a great scale.
- [06:32]
A
When you found out that the entire third act would have to be reshot.
- [06:37]
B
Ah, I thought you were going to ask me the anger scale as it was being reported on.
- [06:40]
A
No, no, no, that. Oh, you mean when I called and said I was going to write about it. Okay, not that. Although I. I'm not familiar with how angry you were then, but by the way, when you first found out, honestly
- [06:50]
B
and sincerely, I was always concerned about how we were going to accomplish a satisfying single movie that went through all of the events that were in that original screenplay. I felt like there were so many moments of connective tissue that we just couldn't get to. And in fact, it's interesting when you. I don't spend a lot of time online, but watching both the joyous reaction on socials, but also people saying, what about this moment? What about that moment? And we've only gotten to 1988.
- [07:30]
A
Where's Brooke Shields? Where's so much.
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B
So this was an opportunity to fill in. You clearly couldn't fill in everything. The Beatles are gonna be four movies. But it was gonna give us a chance to fill in a bunch of connective tissue with a first movie that I thought was gonna be really, really helpful to the film going experience. There was definitely just that feeling in your stomach of, well, we've got a lot of work to do and a lot of People to get in a room. It was genuinely zero because I thought that the both business and creative opportunity that this was gonna present was gonna be worth the extra amount of effort.
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A
I don't believe you. Really zero. You were Zen moment. I can only imagine you have a release date, you had a whole plan, you had everything. And you essentially had to start over. Cause it wasn't just reshooting the third act. It was reconceiving a two hour and ten minute movie that would take you through an arc of an artist only up to a certain time.
- [08:30]
B
You're 100% correct. But I knew from the conversations I had had with Graham and Antoine before the whole issue came up, I knew how much more material we could create. And I am being. I'm never afraid to tell you that I got to more than a 1 or a 2 on an anger scale. But in this case, I can't tell you how much the notion of cramming it all into one movie was of concern to me. Even if we had that original screenplay, I think that movie with the performances is three and a half hours long. And so I really, really was excited about figuring out how to get us to a place where we could focus on a more limited period of time. And then if everyone loved what we did and if the audience said they wanted more, to be able to contemplate doing more.
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A
And we'll get to that. But just take us through a little bit of the process where you guys get together. I understand there were a series of meetings that the full team and Graham and Antoine and all the reps and everyone saying, okay, how do we do this? I heard at one point Antoine was out and didn't want to do it or was skeptical about whether they could do it. How did this process of remaking these movies come about? How did it go about?
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B
It was a lot of people. It was John Feltheimer, who, along with Joe Drake and Peter Slessel, they run the company so well. Joe was my predecessor in the chair job. John Feltheimer and Michael Burns run the company. John has known John Branca for a while.
- [10:05]
A
The estate lawyer. Yep.
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B
The studio, you know, had the courage to step up and want to make a Michael Jackson movie. We were not the only studio that was afforded the opportunity to make this movie.
- [10:16]
A
Yes. So a number of them are kicking themselves this week.
- [10:20]
B
So John and myself and our production and our physical production team, Graham's team, Antoine's team, and the estate all had to sit in a room multiple times.
- [10:31]
A
I'm sure, I'm sure Those were not easy meetings because the estate fucked up. They caused this problem, and you gotta work together to get to the solution. Yeah.
- [10:44]
B
Look, I have not had to or chosen to dive in, to dissect when that agreement came about, who was there, who wasn't. And it's not for me to determine that.
- [10:57]
A
I did hear Branka was not allowed on set.
- [11:00]
B
I can't control.
- [11:01]
A
You can't comment on that.
- [11:02]
B
Okay, What I can say to you is, if I were the director, if I had gone through the turmoil of directing, which, by the way, any movie, the most calm movie in history, it is a ton of emotional and physical effort. If I was told that a significant portion of the work I had done might or couldn't be included in the film I thought I had made, it would take me a beat.
- [11:26]
A
Especially a Michael Jackson movie. A movie, you know is going to be scrutinized and criticized and become a lightning rod.
- [11:34]
B
It would take me a beat. So I think it's fair to say that Antoine needed a beat to wrap his mind around. Okay, how do we move forward from here? But look, you. However, however, however it is that you've had as much insight as you've had. If it had gotten to more than a brief moment of am I really gonna do this? You probably would have heard about it and you probably would have reported on it. We never got to a point where there was any real risk that we weren't gonna be able to make this work.
- [12:03]
A
And money fixes a lot of problems there.
- [12:06]
B
You know, people are talking about the money. And if the movie that we put out hadn't worked, that would be a big story. If what I've read in whatever deal Antwan and Graham have with the estate is between Antoine and the estate. But if what I've read is correct and it's against their back end, it now is irrelevant.
- [12:28]
A
Right. And, you know, you have an asset. You know that if this comes together, there is an audience. It's not like you're shooting darts at some target that doesn't exist. You know the target.
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B
No. The reason why we got into this in the first place was, you know, for better or for worse, if you look at box office over the last 10, 15, 20 years, giant beloved IP rules the top of the charts every year.
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A
And it's been proven that music and musical acts that people love can be that a level. Ip.
- [13:05]
B
Yeah. And, you know, it was interesting as people were talking about this movie and justifiably questions about can it reach those lofty heights of bohemian Rhapsody, which Graham King also produced. But the second highest grossing musical biopic is at 400 million. The gap between Elvis and Bo Rap is massive. And there have been a number that even that have been creatively successful that haven't worked. But this music is special. This music occupies a special place in the hearts and minds of tens of hundreds of millions of people around the world. And that's what's being demonstrated, among other things, in the performance of the film.
- [13:48]
A
And the interesting thing about this is that there was so much question, and I wrote about this many times, about whether the movie should engage with the allegations against Michael Jackson. You guys ended up making a movie that did not really engage with those allegations. And it turns out the general public really wanted to see a movie that did not engage with those allegations and celebrated the man and his music and the, you know, the, the trajectory to the top. But now you've got this second movie that you would like to make. And in my mind, you've got two problems. One is the legal problem. Obviously you can't dramatize the specifics of what happened that led to the first movie existing how it is. And then second, you've got this audience now that showed up for the first movie. Do they want to see a movie that engages with these allegations? Do they want to see the dark script that I read when I read the original Michael Jackson movie? There's a strip search scene in that movie, there's negativity around the allegations, and it goes to dark places. How do you make a second movie and dramatize all that without alienating the audience that came to the first movie?
- [15:11]
B
So I would say a couple things. First of all, I don't want to get ahead of the filmmakers in what a second movie could be. There is a massive amount of music and some of his greatest music and life experiences separate and apart from allegations, a ton of it, that would fill more than a second movie on its own. Some of the things that were in the script that you read and reported on obviously cannot be included. But continuing to get a deeper understanding of who Michael was, I think there are any number of ways the filmmakers will be able to pull that off. And over the next couple of weeks, when we all sit down and talk about their full and complete vision for what this movie will be, I'll be in a better position to answer the question. But I think there are endless. I mean, if we had given people 50 performances in this first movie, I think they would have been as happier, happier based on what we're Seeing in theaters, people could have stayed in this theater forever. And there are giant albums left. I mean, just one song out of, you know, bad is the end of the first movie, the super bowl, which has been talked about, the first super bowl halftime show that literally changed the super bowl, which is in the script for the original and the NFL. And I'm not guaranteeing any of these moments are or not in it. I'm just saying there's a huge portion of his life separate and apart from allegations. And I think the social media and the Internet obviously is a multi layered both opportunity and challenge for everyone living on the planet.
- [16:54]
A
You both can't make the movie for what people on the Internet will think, but you also kind of have to pay attention to what the Internet thinks.
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B
The 97% of people, audiences who have given it their highest rating on Rotten Tomatoes are also in all of their videos and comments being very, very clear about what they want more of. And I think that Graham and Antoine and everyone, John Logan are all paying attention to. They've been sitting in a lot of rooms with audiences, both before the technical release and after. And I think we'll be able to listen to the audience a lot in how we structure a second film if and when we greenlight it.
- [17:32]
A
I should ask if you feel a responsibility to engage with the allegations in the second movie, because I think some out there would say that you do, as filmmakers and as a studio head, have some obligation. I mean, obviously you don't have any obligation to do anything. It's a free country. Or. But to at least acknowledge that this was a part of his life, especially in the final third, that many people believe tarnished him.
- [18:01]
B
It's a really complicated question, and I'm not sure I think that I am the best person or now is the best time. But what I would say, and you've pointed this out repeatedly, is that the screenplay for the movie that was originally gonna be made did deal with it.
- [18:20]
A
So in a particular way that it got. I almost wish people could read it because I wanna know what people would think about it.
- [18:30]
B
Irrespective of what people would think, that screenplay had the courage to address it. Absolutely. And not because of anything that the estate of the filmmakers wanted to do, but the revelation of the agreement that prevented it from being dramatized is what prevented it. So it is not that the estate and the filmmakers were unwilling to go there.
- [18:52]
A
Very good point.
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B
And I think that that needs to be a part of any conversation about what the filmmakers or what the estate were willing to do the other thing. I would just say, just to point it out. There's been a lot of. There's been a lot of commentary on. This isn't a state sanctioned biopic.
- [19:12]
A
Which, by the way, they all are
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B
musical biopics by definition. You get the music or you don't get the music.
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A
Sync the music with the words and with the images. You have to have the rights. And the family could talk to us,
- [19:23]
B
I think John Branka and Karen Langford. Look, I wish just to go back to it. You are an incredible reporter and you are very smart about how you analyze the business. I would prefer that screenplays not get talked about in advance of movies coming out just for my personal preference. I understand.
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A
And I understand this one is special. I understand I'm not doing a review of Hunger Games 4.
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B
I appreciate.
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A
Do you have it? I do not have it.
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B
Thank you.
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A
Nor did I ask for it.
- [19:49]
B
Thank you. But I think that from what you reported, I think that when we say estate sanctioned and other people have taken that to mean sanitized, and the script that you reported on showed a level of openness that I don't think most states would have gone to. And I think that they deserve credit for that. Apart from how you read it, or how I read originally, who knows what
- [20:17]
A
the movie would have been. But it did have a take where the accusers were out for money, were, you know, not. It's not what a lot of the accusers would have liked to see on screen. Let's just say that. But who knows what the movie would have been. We will move on. Although most. I will say most executors don't have themselves as a character in the movie.
- [20:41]
B
Most executors didn't have the impact on Michael's career that John had.
- [20:45]
A
That's true. And he has great hair in the movie.
- [20:48]
B
Still has great hair.
- [20:49]
A
He still does have great hair. I know. It's kind of unbelievable. All right, so we'll move on to other stuff. But just to be clear, the sequel, the follow up movie, is. It's really in the hands of Universal. Right. They have to say they will internationally distribute the movie for you to be able to say yes or you have to find another one.
- [21:08]
B
No. If Universal didn't want to do it, we have lots of people lined up
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A
who would be happy to. Okay. And there's a timing question because I know Graham would like to make the movie this year, but Antoine has a NETFLIX movie that he's doing this summer with Denzel Washington. So that could become a problem. I had heard there's a scenario where Graham may direct the second part. Is that a possibility?
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B
I don't, I don't know between Graham and Antoine what they've worked out yet. And until I see a script and a production plan, I know everyone's busy and got a lot. Graham has a bunch of other projects he's also working on too. So we haven't yet gotten to the moment where we have to solve for anything. But I think in a couple of weeks there will be more information so that if I were sitting here I could be more specific.
- [21:51]
A
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. But it's happening. It's gonna happen. Whether it's this year or next year,
- [21:57]
B
I think the likelihood is very high.
- [21:59]
A
Sure. This episode is brought to you by FX's the Lowdown from acclaimed Reservation Dogs creator Sterling Harjo. The series stars five time Academy Award nominee Ethan Hawke as Lee Raybon, a self described Tulsa true story in whose fixation on the truth tends to create more problems than it solves. This gloriously off kilter NOIR is an AFI television program of the year and one of 2025's most critically acclaimed shows. The Lowdown is available for your Emmy consideration on Hulu and Disney for bundled subscribers.
- [22:33]
B
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- [23:07]
A
Let's move on to some other Lionsgate stuff because you have been on a roll. I mean, honestly, I know this sounds like I'm blowing smoke, but like I've been hard on Lionsgate over the years. There was that period coming out of COVID where there was a bunch of bombs, you know, Borderland and a bunch of other movies that just didn't work. I think you guys had higher hopes for Ballerina, the John Wick spinoff. But Housemaid coming off of Now I see, now you see me and then into Michael and you've got this sort of low budget action business that's doing well. How do you see the studio right now? How do you see Lionsgate in the landscape? And how do you Compete with the other majors.
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B
It's a great question. Look, I appreciate your kind words and anyone who's seen you would not think you would be blowing smoke for the sake of blowing smoke. So I appreciate it.
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A
Got to give the credit.
- [24:02]
B
I appreciate it A couple things. First of all, the team that I've been able to put together I could not be more proud of. And the system is now working. When I dreamt about how it might work someplace someday, this system is working. That's from John and Michael in terms of the flexibility they've given me to do what we're doing in the film group. That's how the production team, the marketing team, the distribution team and the international team are all working together. What's been really gratifying. So my. I say my slate and I think, you know, we mentioned before, Joe Drake deserves a ton of credit for having the courage to bring Michael in. Infrequently. When you do things at a studio and then you decide to leave or you're asked to leave, in my case, once upon a time.
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A
Oh, we don't have to talk about that.
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B
I'm just saying, like, it happens.
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A
Do you remember I was there your last night as a studio?
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B
It happens. It's fine.
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A
We were in Toronto at the rush party.
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B
That is correct.
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A
And I said good night to you. And the next day I heard that you got like fired on a plane.
- [25:09]
B
You meant it? It wasn't on a plane, but yes,
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A
it wasn't on the plane.
- [25:11]
B
No, it was the next day. But anyway, often you don't get credit. Whatever you left behind, you don't get any credit. And Joe deserves a massive amount of credit. But John and Michael have built something pretty extraordinary. You've watched other people try to build studios or create studios. And this place, I think, is something really special. We are small and nimble enough to be able to make, market and distribute smaller films that not only can be artistically satisfying, but actually meaningfully contribute to the bottom line. And at the same time, even though we are so much smaller in number of people in overhead, when we have a Michael or a Hunger Games or in the past a Twilight or something like that, a John Wicked, we are able to compete like a major when we have those films. And the ability to do that is, I think, unique. It isn't to say that it wouldn't be amazing to have the resources and the opportunity and the IP and all the other things that the bigger legacy studios have. But when you look at these films, my slate technically started with the long Walk the Long Walk is one of the proudest great green lights of my entire career. It is a movie that a lot of very talented people tried to make in different incarnations for 20 years in this business. It could not get made. Francis Lawrence, who is obviously one of our most cherished filmmakers by virtue of Hunger Games movies, but also by virtue of him signing a first look deal because he wants to make movies at the studio, came and said, I have a passion for this film. Can we figure it out? And we figured out a way to make what was deemed largely an unmakeable movie, such that not only did it get extraordinary reviews, but it was made for a price where that box office led to a really meaningful profit for the studio. Rejuvenating. Now youw see me recognizing that there was a reunion aspect to putting that cast back together and that people who had seen it a decade or more ago at one age now had families and would bring families. The Housemaid. One of the benefits of not having six or seven or eight tent poles on a schedule is that if you find something that you think can not just compete, but thrive in the rarefied air of a release schedule that usually has to be reserved for massive tent poles.
- [27:34]
A
If you were Disney, you could never put the Housemaid on Christmas.
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B
You have a giant $300 million movie that you appropriately need to maximize and doing 4. We will end up north of 400 million worldwide on that film. And part of that was the ability to treat it like a tent pole, even though it was a net $30 million movie. And then, Michael, to. To have a film do the biggest business you could possibly do. I think.
- [27:59]
A
Yeah, but you only get Michael because these big intermediated companies have so many different arms that they find it problematic.
- [28:07]
B
Historically. Yes, but. And I'm. I promise you, as much as. As much as I think it might be easy to think I would be overconfident. I promise I'm not. But I would point you to our securing the rights to the Correspondent a couple of weeks ago.
- [28:24]
A
You guys have been talking about this. Why are you so excited about that? It's a. It's a Jane Fonda movie. No disrespect to her, but she's 88 years old.
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B
Well, here's what I would tell you. Every studio in town, all of the majors, maybe save one, offered the exact same amount of money we offered. And there was a. For lack of a better word, there was an audition.
- [28:50]
A
And what won it for you?
- [28:52]
B
I think it's a few things. I think this is A big book, by the way. It's a big book with a massive level of audience engagement.
- [29:01]
A
So did you just say here Jane Fonda is going to be our Sydney Sweeney? This is a huge book. We're going to get to 400 million.
- [29:06]
B
The pitch that the production team that Aaron Westerman and the production team heard, blew them away. And when they came and shared it with me, I was equally moved by it. I recognized, similar to some other moments in my career, when I sort of saw signals of books that were becoming something that weren't just of interest, but we're of passionate interest. And the way our production and marketing teams combined to present our vision for how we would bring this movie to market. I think on the Back of Housemaid and the other thing I would say is we encouraged everyone in the decision making process to go have a conversation with the other authors who are in business with us. Go speak to Frida McFadden. Go speak to Suzanne.
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A
She said the movie's better than her book.
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B
Go speak to. It was a nice.
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A
I said this to Paul Feig. What author has said that?
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B
Lovely. Go speak to Suzanne. Go speak to Stephanie from Twilight. And again, one of the benefits, there are challenges and other things being smaller, but I think each of those authors who have earned the right to feel like they are a huge and meaningful part of the process, I think we're all able to share authentically how much a real part of the process they felt. And that despite the best efforts of incredibly talented people at every studio, by virtue of how small we are, you are on the phone with the key decision makers.
- [30:41]
A
That's the pitch.
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B
The time you go to Disney, you
- [30:43]
A
go to Warners, you are fifth on the call sheet. You, you come here, you're number one.
- [30:47]
B
And I don't look, I don't. I definitely am not suggesting for a second that any of the filmmakers I'm mentioning here would turn down jobs at the Legacies. But Paul has his first look deal with us and Francis has his first look deal with us. And if you asked Graham King, who has been everywhere and seen everything about his experience with us, I think he would tell you. Not that it was better than anything he's ever seen before. But I think he, I, I'm guessing he would tell you it's as good as anything he's ever seen before. And the fact that we're able to do that, given our size, is an opportunity.
- [31:21]
A
But how do you do? International is it? I know it's case by case, right? Because you don't have a traditional international distribution apparatus. So for some movies you sell off territories.
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B
So we have a traditional apparatus in two of the biggest international markets in the world, which is the UK and Latin America.
- [31:37]
A
Okay.
- [31:38]
B
And I think that often gets understandably lost because unlike the majors, we do license our content to third party distributors outside of the UK and Latin America. I think there is a misconception about what that means too.
- [31:53]
A
People think, clear it up. Because I've talked to filmmakers who said, I'd love to go to Lionsgate, but I don't want to get into a situation where my film is released one way in the US and then in some haphazard way all over the world.
- [32:05]
B
I've heard that too. I hear it and it's something I have to deal with all the time. What I would say is if Francis Lawrence and Nina Jacobson are producer on the Hunger Games or Chad Cihowski and Keanu Reeves and Basil on John Wick felt like their films were being less than perfectly handled or felt like they were being undercompensated for the success of their movies, they would have stopped a long time ago. So I think there are people one can talk to and say, how does it work? But also I think one of the other misconceptions, people talk about it as though we are selling the rights to our movies to third parties internationally. And that's not the case. We are licensing the movies. What does that mean? It means that they are paying us upfront. It means that they're taking on the marketing costs and responsibilities, but working with our global team in Los Angeles to make sure that they have all the assets for our campaign. Or if they need something different, we
- [32:56]
A
talk about it and there's not going to be anything embarrassing that's going to go viral on the Internet. Where they're selling a movie in Spain,
- [33:03]
B
some weird way we have permission, they ask us. And it then means that when they overperform in any particular territory, we are sharing in the upside on a territory by territory basis. In the case of a movie like Housemaid, where it overperformed everywhere, it means we're seeing significant overages from virtually every territory. In other cases, you sometimes have a movie that will really overperform in two or three markets. And if you are a legacy studio, you take those wins, but you also have to swallow the losses in territories where it didn't perform as well. In this case, we are the beneficiary of upside in territories that work and it doesn't cross with territories that perform less well. So Especially for a studio that doesn't have multiple $300 million movies, the efficiencies that it creates are beneficial. And we have found ways to compensate our talent so that they feel financially protected. And we have not had an incident where some territory has gone off and marketed a movie in a completely inappropriate way. We have controls on that, and it's worked really well.
- [34:11]
A
And it used to be that the movies would go to Starz, which is sort of no man's land. They still go there. But now you have this Amazon deal where they then go to Amazon Prime Video pretty closely after they go to Starz. Correct.
- [34:22]
B
So Star look, because the pay one
- [34:24]
A
deal matters a lot. Sony pitches themselves. As you come here, you get full theaters, you get the full marketing boat, and then your movie's on Netflix in three or four months, so you get the streaming boat as well.
- [34:36]
B
Sony is an exceptionally run company. I think they're. I have incredible.
- [34:40]
A
You don't have to be nice. Come on.
- [34:43]
B
I think that that group is incredible.
- [34:45]
A
They passed on this movie. They passed on Michael.
- [34:48]
B
But what I would tell you is that first of all, Starz, in terms of delivering for the audience its services, is running a really good business.
- [34:57]
A
But no filmmaker wants their movie on stars.
- [35:00]
B
Well, so the Housemaid is the Highest grossing P. VOD title for any movie south of $150 million domestic in history.
- [35:13]
A
Oh, my God. How long did it take you to memorize that stat?
- [35:16]
B
I got it out in one completely clear piece.
- [35:18]
A
All right, that's great. I mean, all of.
- [35:21]
B
And the. And the revenue on. On that window is exceptionally beneficial to everybody.
- [35:28]
A
Let's talk about the pivot window because you guys often will say you have all these smaller, you know, action kind of. I call them the. The AFM style movies where you'd see the, you know, bald tough guy on
- [35:39]
B
the COVID Fewer, fewer now and going forward than we had in the past, but yes, a staple.
- [35:42]
A
But you do that. And whenever one of Those opens to 5 million and everyone writes about how it flops, I always get an email from Lionsgate saying, you don't understand the model. These do really well on pvod. And in the discussion that the industry is currently having about these windows and when movies should go to P. VOD and when they should go to subscription streaming. You guys haven't talked about a 45 day window. And I assume that's because a lot of these movies, the theatrical release is really cursory. It's really just marketing for pvod. And you want to get the movie there as soon as possible.
- [36:17]
B
So we are a couple things this past year in terms of time, from theatrical launch to svod, which I think everyone would agree is theoretically the most challenging in terms of. Does it in any way hinder people from going to the theater because people think it's free? We were the longest between theatrical launch and SVAD of any studio in Hollywood last year. As it relates to some of those smaller films you mentioned, I think it is entirely possible that there will be fewer of them because we are not going to be an outlier. And if the industry is all moving, and I think there's a valid justification for it, if the industry is moving to 45 days across the board for anything that's launched theatrically, we will participate in that. Now, Universal said they're gonna be doing that. They didn't say it was true necessarily, for focus. So I'll be interested to see does it apply to. Because we're effectively like three or four studios, when we have Michael or the Hunger Games or Housemaid, we are like a legacy big studio. And it's fair to judge us that way. When we have a film like the Long Walk, I think it would be more fair to think of comparing what we're doing to what A24 or Neon do. And when we have some of those films that are much smaller and are really designed to set themselves up for home viewing.
- [37:44]
A
A genre mostly.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah, Americana was one of those. Lots of films that have fit in that category. The ability to go relatively quickly from theatrical into home has been of value, but it doesn't surpass our need to be a great partner to exhibition. And so we're not gonna fight a fight if that's where everyone is moving. I do think the SVOD is the biggest question that all of us as an industry are going to have to answer. And, you know, I was talking about P. VOD a long time ago.
- [38:16]
A
You probably said you make. You make so much money on it, and if the pressure is on you to not do it, where does that leave you?
- [38:23]
B
Well, so much money is relative to the cost of the movie. If you acquire a movie for $500,000 and you make $3 million, that is an extraordinary return on investment. It is an opportunity to cultivate relationships with filmmakers. You know, we did a movie a couple years ago called Sisu.
- [38:42]
A
Oh, yeah. And that filmmaker is doing John Rambo.
- [38:44]
B
And that filmmaker is doing John Rambo,
- [38:46]
A
which I've heard is actually looking like it might be really good.
- [38:49]
B
The dailies on John Rambo are exceptional. And it's rare. I mean, I'm not.
- [38:53]
A
I know everyone blows smoke on.
- [38:55]
B
I don't come from production.
- [38:56]
A
Let me guess. It tested the highest you've ever had.
- [38:59]
B
Haven't seen a cut of the movie. But it's rare for non production genius to look at Daley's. I think I was quoted somewhere saying, and I meant it. I either think that looks like what I hoped it would look like or oh no, those are kind of the only two things I'm capable of. Occasionally it happened on a few scenes in the housemaid. Occasionally I see something in dailies that I think, oh my gosh, that is so far beyond what I thought was possible. And Yamori is doing like the action and what's happening on screen is happening in camera. So I'm able to see stuff before any effects work goes into it. And it blew me away. So sometimes in the case of Americana, again, very, very small investment. We were in business with Sydney and expected to be in business with Sydney and just wanted to have other touch points to be able to maintain that relationship. And it was a good thing for us. And I happen to love that movie. So it may be that some of those movies no longer have a viable path theatrically. I think that would be a shame for those movies. But if we collectively as an industry feel like moving the window back is going to continue to drive better attendance, then fantastic.
- [40:18]
A
Kind of a bummer for theaters because the increased windows were would actually kill a few theatrical releases that you guys would put out. That's not your problem. I am not.
- [40:29]
B
There are many, many smarter and stronger voices than mine that participate in this process. But what I would say is, as a general point of view, I think it is best to try to figure out what the right course of action is when you're operating in a moment of strength, not a moment of weakness.
- [40:47]
A
Finally, last question. Where does Michael get to. What are the numbers showing you right now?
- [40:51]
B
We had a great Monday.
- [40:54]
A
700, 800. Does it have a chance to beat Bohemian Rhapsody?
- [40:58]
B
It does.
- [40:59]
A
So that could potentially make it the first billion dollar grocer for Lionsgate. Is that a possibility?
- [41:05]
B
There is a chance it could get there. And obviously there are lots of results well below that that are still a giant win for everybody. But based on if you were to just look at the number of movies that have opened at or right near $100 million domestically and think about where that's headed, if you add on top of that what just happened internationally and then you layer on the one additional component which is. And Universal, Amazing partners. It was a great experience with them. The only territory they don't have internationally is Japan, which we handled separately. And that market could be massive. They expect it will be massive. They're treating it like it's going to be massive. I think when you add it up, it's going to end up being in a. In a huge place.
- [41:46]
A
But very good for my box office draft. I heard and I have it in the draft.
- [41:51]
B
I'm excited for you.
- [41:52]
A
I know people say I'm a Michael movie hater, but I'm not. I have it in the draft.
- [41:56]
B
Well, I appreciate it.
- [41:57]
A
All right, well, thank you very much. Is there anything else you wanted to get off your chest?
- [42:00]
B
No, I. I'm super appreciative that you invited me and I'm happy that.
- [42:04]
A
I know that's a big deal for you. This is. This. People have been questioning whether this movie would work. So congratulations.
- [42:10]
B
Thank you for letting us celebrate it.
- [42:14]
A
We are back with the call sheet. Craig, I'm gonna out you right now because you don't normally ask if the movie premiere will be in LA or New York, but you asked about devil wears Prada 2 on behalf of my wife. Uh huh. Yes. This is Top Gun Maverick for Wives. Sure. Okay. Unfortunately it was in New York. So neither of us has seen the movie. I do have tickets for the Ipick this Friday night. At the direction of my wife, we have reserved our spot. So neither of us has seen this movie. The original Devil Wears Prada opened to 30. No, 27.5 million. That was in 2006, so 20 years ago. A lot of inflation at work is detracting double that now. It's. It's now up to 73 according to NRG and I've seen up to 80. I mean, Disney is treating this like the fricking Avengers. That this marketing campaign for a movie of this budget and this style, they are giving it the full freight Disney experience here. I wouldn't be surprised if this marketing campaign was like 150 worldwide. I mean, it's kind of amazing what they're spending. So they think they've got something here. I'm going to take the over. I think this will overperform. Yeah, I don't know what it would take for us to take the under on this. It feels like it has momentum. The numbers have been going up. NRG's numbers, they were at 60. Then they were 68. Now they're 73. So that usually indicates that people are choosing this. The pre sales are strong and the momentum is going to keep going, but you never know. It's funny. There's not a lot of legacy sequels for movies that are directed towards women. Usually legacy sequels are like Top Gun, Maverick, and like, the old action hero comes back. This is a new. I mean, there's like Freakier Friday. Yeah, I was going to say Freakier Friday was overperformed, which did. I would argue beyond Beetlejuice, but that's sort of all audience. You know, they Hocus Pocus 2, Practical Magic 2. Those are. Those are in that genre. But you're right. I don't know. I just feel like this movie managed to kind of hit the zeitgeist a little, and it's got that early May spot that Disney has traditionally released big superhero movies. They don't have that this summer, so they're going all. All in on this, and I think it's going to work. And what's the next big release coming up? Mandalorian at the end of May? Pretty much. Yeah. There's. There's some small stuff, and then it'll compete with Michael, but. Yeah, yeah. And I think the Michael audience does overlap. I mean, Michael is. Is. Is older women, but this. I think the younger women are. Are going to care about this. That's the crazy thing, is that everybody in this movie is 45 and above, and it seems like younger women care. Yeah, yeah. No, they all look like they're the same age as when they originally came out. Meryl Streep and Hathway and Stanley Tucci. That guy's ageless. Yeah, yeah.
- [44:53]
B
So.
- [44:53]
A
Yeah. All right, so we're both taking the over. What's the exact number? 70. It's 73 over on 70. So we're taking the over on 70. How much over do you think it'll hit? I think It'll be over 80. Yeah. Not quite Michael numbers, but pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely worth Disney's while. All right, that's the show for the day. I want to thank my guests. Adam Fogelson, producer Craig Horlbeck, artist Jon Jones, and I want to thank you. We will see you tomorrow.
- [45:20]
B
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- [45:50]
A
Hey, Mama.
- [45:51]
B
Thanks for making all my favorite recipes.
- [45:54]
A
Hi, Ma.
- [45:54]
B
Thanks for your unfiltered advice.
- [45:57]
A
Hi, Mom.
- [45:58]
B
Thanks for always being by the phone.
- [46:00]
A
Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS Store, your items arrive on time or your money back. Gearing guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS store US retail locations. Visit the upsstore.com airshipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS Store, and we'll get your gratitude there on time.