Paramount’s New Playbook Unveiled and the Taylor Swift Podcast Bounce

Summary

Summary of "Paramount’s New Playbook Unveiled and the Taylor Swift Podcast Bounce"

Podcast: The Town with Matthew Belloni
Host: Matthew Belloni, The Ringer
Release Date: August 15, 2025

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I. Paramount’s New Playbook

A. Leadership Changes and Key Personnel

Matthew Bellamy opens the discussion by delving into the recent takeover of Paramount by David Ellison, the founding partner of Skydance Media. Ellison has appointed a new leadership team, including Jeff Shell as the company's new president, Dana Goldberg and Josh Greenstein overseeing the studio, and Cindy Holland managing Paramount Plus and Pluto, previously at Netflix Plus. Bellamy notes the presence of other key figures such as George Cheeks for TV.

Notable Quote:
Matt Bellamy (04:45) – "My biggest takeaway is that they refer to the streaming service as P. Is that like a home pregnancy test? I'm not sure what that is."

B. Studio Strategy and Content Plans

The panel discusses the ambiguity surrounding Paramount’s future film and streaming strategies under Ellison’s leadership. While Ellison emphasizes a commitment to "truth and unbiased news at CBS News," specifics on handling contentious political topics remain vague.

Notable Quote:
Matt Bellamy (07:02) – “There were two David Ellisons. I felt like, you know, there was the version that said the corporate things that you say when you don't want to talk about something...”

C. Streaming and Digital Initiatives

Cindy Holland outlines Paramount’s intention to broaden its streaming content by acquiring shows from external studios, a departure from their previous practices. This move signals a pivot towards more commercially viable and diverse content to attract a wider audience.

Notable Quote:
Amy Poehler (12:13) – “Cindy Holland... was responsible for a lot of those big noisy hits like Orange is the New Black, The Crown... she was very much fired. And she will tell you in a. If you meet with her, yes, I was fired.”

D. Management of Talent Relationships

Paramount’s approach to managing high-profile talent, particularly Taylor Sheridan, is a focal point. Despite Sheridan’s reputation for being "a runaway train," Ellison’s team is committed to maintaining a productive relationship, recognizing Sheridan as a crucial asset.

Notable Quote:
Matt Bellamy (10:30) – “He [Ellison] knows that he is doing this... for the right reasons. He's not doing this to flip and make a buck. He's doing this because he actually likes movies.”

E. Windowing Strategy and Theatrical Release Plans

Jeff Shell advocates for a flexible windowing strategy, inspired by Universal’s model during the pandemic. Paramount aims to release movies in theaters followed by staggered windows for streaming, adjusting the exclusivity period based on each film’s potential.

Notable Quote:
Amy Poehler (23:47) – “Sometimes we are pretty united up here in terms of Theatrical being critical and it has to be part of the equation.”

F. Cable Networks and Their Future

The discussion shifts to Paramount’s cable networks, including BET, Comedy Central, MTV, and Nickelodeon. Ellison has expressed intentions to retain these assets, contrasting previous regimes that considered selling them. There is speculation about leveraging these brands in the digital space or forming partnerships to revitalize them.

Notable Quote:
Matt Bellamy (21:54) – “The squandering of these brands in streaming is one of the great failures of the media business history.”

G. Cost-Cutting Measures and Layoffs

In response to financial pressures, Ellison announced significant cost-cutting measures, including a $2 billion reduction in expenses and substantial layoffs. This strategy mirrors Warner Brothers’ approach but aims to implement changes more decisively.

Notable Quote:
Matt Bellamy (25:29) – “He did say right about the layoffs is that they would happen in one fell swoop. They would not be a company that would draw layoffs coming in every month.”

H. Overall Assessment of David Ellison’s Approach

Both Bellamy and guest Brooks Barnes express cautious optimism about Ellison’s leadership. While acknowledging Ellison’s initial strategic moves and media training, they remain skeptical about the depth of promised changes and the studio’s ability to rejuvenate stale franchises.

Notable Quote:
Amy Poehler (18:44) – “It's early days, but I agree with you. I think it's cautiously optimistic.”

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II. Taylor Swift’s Impact on Podcast “New Heights”

A. Details of the Podcast Appearance

The latter part of the episode shifts focus to the remarkable impact of Taylor Swift’s appearance on the podcast "New Heights," hosted by Jason and Travis Kelce. Her participation led to a surge in the podcast’s popularity, attracting a vast new audience.

B. Impact on Listener Metrics

Craig Horbeck highlights the significant increase in the podcast’s metrics following Swift’s appearance. Spotify reported a 3,000% increase in new listeners, a 2,500% rise in average streams, and a 1,100% jump in late-night listening. The episode’s listener base became predominantly female, marking a notable shift from previous demographics.

Notable Quote:
Craig Horbeck (29:39) – “I honestly, I think that shows you that sports fans are not listening to the show. These are already Taylor Swift fans listening to the show.”

C. Future Implications for Podcasting and Influencer Appearances

The discussion emphasizes the potential for celebrity appearances to dramatically alter podcast landscapes. Despite the spike in numbers, there is uncertainty about the podcast’s ability to sustain such high engagement levels once the initial excitement wanes.

Notable Quote:
Amy Poehler (31:27) – “When you bet on the Kelseys, you are betting on Taylor Swift participating. They got it. And we'll see where it goes from here.”

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III. Conclusion

The episode of The Town with Matthew Belloni offers an in-depth exploration of Paramount’s strategic overhaul under David Ellison’s leadership and the explosive effect of Taylor Swift’s appearance on a popular podcast. While Paramount’s ambitious plans signal a potential renaissance, industry insiders remain cautiously optimistic about the tangible outcomes. Concurrently, Swift’s influence underscores the evolving dynamics of podcasting, where celebrity engagements can redefine listener demographics and engagement metrics.

Overall Notable Quote:
Matt Bellamy (27:05) – “It really struck me yesterday how much he's grown. ... And his comments about why legacy studios have failed where they've tried and failed, I thought for right, you know, spot on and I appreciated it.”

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to it.

Transcript

[Amy Poehler]

Hi everyone, it's Amy Poehler and I'm launching a new podcast called Good Hang. In preparation for that, I asked some.

[Brooks Barnes]

Of my friends to send in some.

[Amy Poehler]

Videos and give me some advice. Just be yourself and the guests will come.

[Brooks Barnes]

Don't be the celebrity that this is their, like, sixth thing they're doing.

[Amy Poehler]

I love true crime and cooking podcasts. Is there any way you could combine the two? Well, everyone has an opinion and a podcast, so join me for Good Hang. It's rough out there. We're just trying to lighten it up a little bit. This episode of the Town is sponsored by Netflix. Presenting Rebel Ridge. The Critics Choice Award winner is now an Emmy Award nominee for outstanding TV movie. Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone, and the Associated Press all declare Rebel Ridge one of the best movies of the year. This episode is brought to you by Lucasfilm presenting Andor Season 2. Andor has earned 14 Emmy nominations, including writing, directing and outstanding drama series. Vanity Fair raves that Andor is profoundly resonant. It's the best television of the year. All episodes of Andor are now streaming on Disney. It is Thursday, August 14th. It's the question that dominates conversations all around town. What is Paramount going to be exactly? David Ellison now owns the studio and he's got his Skydance media team running the film and TV groups. But we haven't heard a lot about what kind of movies they want to make, where they want to put those movies in theaters or on streaming, and whether the shows on CBS and Paramount will change that much. Yesterday I trekked over to the Paramount commissary on the lot. The cookies were very tasty, and I sat with a bunch of other media to hear directly from Ellison and his team that included Jeff Schell, the company's new president. Dana Goldberg and Josh Greenstein are running the studio. The streaming chief, Cindy Holland, she's in charge of Paramount plus and Pluto, and she came from Netflix Plus, George Cheeks over tv, among others. A lot of it was kind of meaningless platitudes. Ellison has his talking points on hot button subjects like he's for truth and unbiased news at CBS News without many details about how he'd handle thorny political subjects. And he wants to work with the best creators and artists and top level IP a few specifics about the types of artists or what budgets he's comfortable with or how he intends to reinvent the pretty stale franchises at Paramount. And he refused to talk about the rampant speculation that Paramount will now go after other companies, specifically Warner Brothers or TikTok. My Sources say he's interested in both of those. But we did learn more about the studio strategy, specifically how they intend to release Paramount movies in theaters with varying levels of exclusive windows. Some details on the content plan, more content, they say. And they really want to keep Taylor Sheridan, even if it means spending trips, $20 million an episode for his shows. A lot of other stuff from the presentation as well. So I've got Brooks Barnes here to discuss it all. Brooks covers Hollywood for the New York Times. He's been on the show before, and I accosted him before the presentation yesterday to come back and talk about David Ellison and the big Paramount reveal. So today it's the Ellison media tour, what this studio is actually going to be and how he's doing so far. From the ringer and puck, I'm Matt Bellamy, and this is the town. Okay. We are here with Brooks Barnes, returning champion on the show, staff reporter at the New York Times, veteran coverer of all things Hollywood. Welcome, Brooks.

[Matt Bellamy]

Hello. How are you?

[Amy Poehler]

I am doing well. Good to see you in person yesterday at Paramount. You know, I don't love these things where you're sort of like, cobbled together with the more loathsome members of the Hollywood press corps, but I think hives.

[Matt Bellamy]

Hives is sort of a good word.

[Amy Poehler]

Shiver. Oh, my God. Person. Yeah. So. But it was very nice to see you. And Nicole, I wanted you on because I wanted to get some unvarnished takes on the Paramount situation and the kind of handling of this first week of the Ellison era. They did the big presentation in New York where they were mostly asked about CBS News and Trump and that stuff. And then they brought the roadshow to Hollywood yesterday where they were asked a little bit about that stuff, but also grilled on plans for the studio. And I want to just go through the topics that they touched on and kind of get your take on what they're saying, what they're not saying. Maybe some of the half truths and some of the spin that we're being subjected to, and that is making it into the media. But first, I want your overall vibe of this presentation on the Paramount lot. What did you get from. From the Ellison team?

[Matt Bellamy]

My biggest takeaway that they refer to the streaming service as P. Is that like a home pregnancy test? I'm not sure what that is.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, yeah, that was funny. And clearly certain members of the team, namely Cindy Holland, who runs the streaming services, and I think George Cheeks and some of they are less enamored of doing this kind of press hit event than maybe some of the other members who are more used to it or kind of in selling mode, like Ellison and Jeff Shell. Don't get me wrong, Ellison looks like this is not his favorite thing in the world to do. But why do you think they're doing this? Why, that's the better question is most of the time with Warner Brothers. When they took over, when the Discovery people took over, they did a couple press things. They did the Times, they did a couple of things. But they did not just have a free for all on both coasts where 30 journalists in a room are just allowed to grill and then go to lunch and grill some more. Why are they doing this?

[Matt Bellamy]

I thought it was smart of them to do it, actually. And you're right. Normally there's a way that these new regimes come in. It was clearly a strategy by Ellison's new head of communications, Melissa Zuckerman, one of the best in the business. Yes, that's a bit of a suck up, I know.

[Amy Poehler]

Gunning for an exclusive.

[Matt Bellamy]

And to be fair.

[Amy Poehler]

But it's true.

[Matt Bellamy]

Is true.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, it is true. She is great. To be fair, Ellison was gonna come on the town and talk about this, but since he's doing all this, we're gonna push that to some other time in the future. So why are they doing this now?

[Matt Bellamy]

So they wanna get the Hollywood press on their side to show definitively that it's a new day. There's no way that those executives wanted to sit up there and field questions. But the fact that they did told me that Ellison is listening to the people or willing to listen to the veterans. He has, he's put on his team to allow them to do their jobs. And that to me is encouraging.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. And they were clearly media trained and coached. We heard a lot of the same platitudes from him. You know, we're seven days in and I am not going to be in the business of doing X, Y, Z. And we are here to accrue value for our shareholders. Like just a lot of that kind of stuff that clearly was put into their heads.

[Matt Bellamy]

There were two David Ellison's. I felt like, you know, there was the version that said the corporate things that you say when you don't want to talk about something, you know, we're only seven days in. Well, you've had a year or more of thinking about this and planning. Like, I don't believe for a second that you don't know well.

[Amy Poehler]

And it was clear on day one when they put out that whole Jerry Maguire style mission statement about what Paramount is and what they're going to be doing that. Felt like it had been workshopped and focus grouped and tested 25 different ways to put out a, you know, a positive statement that the world can see there's a new sheriff in town.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. And you know, to some degree, what do you expect? Right?

[Amy Poehler]

Exactly.

[Matt Bellamy]

You know, one note I would give him is to the question about the Bari Weiss talks, you know, we're not going to comment on rumor and speculation. Yeah. That just makes reporters want to claw your face off. Like it's not rumor and speculation.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. It's been reported many times. We all know that you're negotiating. And yes, I agree. There were many instances during this hour long Q and A and lunch thing where I was just like sitting on my hands frustrated because I was like, okay, there's like five follow up questions on this. You know, you want to say that CBS News is going to be right down the middle. It's like, that's easy to say. But when 60 Minutes is doing a hard hitting piece on the Trump administration, sometimes there aren't both sides to a story and sometimes it's much more nuanced than that. And we weren't able to get to the nuance of the questions.

[Matt Bellamy]

If you notice there were protesters outside the gates about the Trump deal, which, you know, that's not going away.

[Amy Poehler]

No. And if, then if Ellison thinks it's going away and he's not going to be asked about whether there's a side deal with Trump for the, you know, until he actually says there was no side deal and Trump is wrong and lying, he's sorely mistaken.

[Matt Bellamy]

I will say though, when I said that there are two sides, the other side, the side that I thought was really impressive was when something changed in Ellison's eyes when he started answering a question about technology and how poorly. He was very blunt about how poorly the company has approached technology. I mean, I guess you can be. There's no other way to say that very bluntly, but that look in his eyes and the way that he sort of explained it in a way or spoke about it in a way I have not heard other CEOs in Hollywood talk about it told me that he could win.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, no, it's true. There were clearly things that he felt comfortable about. I felt the same change in him when he was talking about talent and his relationship with talent, particularly Tom Cruise and some of the others. Like, he knows how to talk about that. He knows that you have to constantly praise the talent. And you know, we are just in awe of Tom's immense talents, and his partnership has been so meaningful to us. And, yeah, it's platitudes, and we're not hearing anything new, but he likes that aspect of it. And everything I have heard from the talent community is that Ellison is very good in a room with big talent, and he is approachable. And they feel like this is a guy who is doing this. I hate to use a bachelor term, but for the right reasons. He's not doing this to flip and make a buck. He's doing this because he actually likes movies.

[Matt Bellamy]

I think that's true. I mean, one takeaway is that they seem to know that they could have a Taylor Sheridan problem. And I think he called him a genius.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes.

[Matt Bellamy]

Like, you know, Steven Spielberg's a genius. Taylor Sheridan sort of strikes me as a runaway train.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, how dare you? How dare you. Steven Spielberg is not churning out 20 scripts a month anyway. You know what I mean? No, but I. I followed up with that, and this was all on the record, so I can talk about it. I asked Cindy Holland. She has never met with him. She has no relationship with Taylor Sheridan. She's now ostensibly his boss. And she said she was looking forward to having a relationship. And I said, you know, he's a very prickly person and a very particular person, and he knows his value here, and she's aware of that. And they are making inroads and trying to have that relationship. Ellison, I think, was a little bit more confident in his relationship there and the ability to manage him. But, yeah, they. They know that he is by far the number one piece of talent that they have on their roster, and they need to manage that expertly or else it could blow up in their face.

[Matt Bellamy]

I think Cindy Holland's rock star. I'm really looking forward to what she's going to do there.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, interesting. Why. Why does she impress you?

[Matt Bellamy]

Won the track record.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, she. Just for context, she was the original Netflix head of tv, and she was responsible for a lot of those big noisy hits like Orange is in Black, the Crown, and, you know, was involved in the early days of setting the Netflix template. She was pushed out when they went a little bit more commercial, brought in Bella Bajaria to essentially broaden out the slate, and she was very much fired. And she will tell you in a. If you meet with her, yes, I was fired. And I think she's still got a little bit of a chip on her shoulder about that. She brings it up a lot.

[Matt Bellamy]

That's part of what makes me believe in her. Know what I mean? Like, you want some of that? You want.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, you want a spite store?

[Matt Bellamy]

You want someone who's, who's wants to get in there and prove somebody wrong and beat somebody.

[Amy Poehler]

I asked her. I've heard that she's going after Netflix talent, specifically the Duffer Brothers who did Stranger Things and wants to bring them over to Paramount. Plus, she would not go there. When I quizzed her on the specifics of what I heard she is offering the Duffer Brothers. But, you know, I would not be surprised to see her try to poach some big Netflix talent and talent from everywhere to try to bring them over.

[Matt Bellamy]

She's clearly going to get some money, right? That's one thing that they weren't specific. But will her programming budget go up? One word. Yes.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah. So that's one of the topics I want to get into. And you sort of already started the streaming strategy. Um, Cindy said on the stage, we want to entertain all audiences around the world. And, you know, that's an easy thing to say. Unclear what that actually means. She says they're going to start buying shows from outside studios. Paramount was not doing that. And that's an indication that they want the best stuff and the most commercial stuff that they can bring in from anywhere. It's good news for outside producers. She told me she, as I said, hasn't met with Sheridan. She basically was saying she wants to do shows that are complimentary to the audience that they have, meaning the Sheridan audience and the NFL audience and the people that are there for the CBS next day shows, but to focus on areas that they don't currently have within that adjacent content. Not sure what that means. If it means more female oriented, more prestige. People seem to think she's going to do more prestige stuff. Not sure about that and not sure whether that would necessarily work on Paramount. She did shout out some of the Star Trek shows they have. There's been speculation that they might pull back from that. I don't think they will now.

[Matt Bellamy]

The Star Trek comment did make me sort of want to cover my eyes. I'm just, I'm not a fan. It feels like, like wallpaper at this point. Please do something interesting.

[Amy Poehler]

I think they have the audience for that. I mean, it's been reported around town that the priorities, quote, unquote, are Star Trek and Top Gun 3. And I think they mentioned World War Z. But those were in response to specific questions from journalists. It wasn't like they voluntarily said, we would like to make more Star Trek. It was a question from people saying, do you care about These properties. And then they answered, sure, yes, we care about Star Trek. We care about Top grand three. I mean, duh, obviously they care about Top Gun three. Are you, like, what are they going to say? Oh, actually, you know, we really care.

[Matt Bellamy]

About Smurf 17, right.

[Amy Poehler]

The highest grossing movie in the history of the studio. Nah, we, we don't really want to do another one. Like, I don't know, that was kind of silly. Interestingly, they did not talk about an overall deal that they have signed with Will Smith that I reported on a couple weeks ago that has still not been announced there. And I think they were trying to, to set the agenda with this Timothee Chalamet, James Mangold movie that they talked about. This is my second topic here. I want to talk about the projects they specifically mentioned. And they were going on and on about how proud they are to be in business with James Mangold and Timothee Chalamet and Dana Goldberg, who runs the film studio. It's film and tv. She sort of used that to position them as like, yeah, we want to do high quality movies. And this is an example. Do you get the vibe that that is going to be the Skydance way at Paramount Pictures, Timothee Chalamet, James Mangold movies.

[Matt Bellamy]

I mean, that project, how much did they spend on it? I heard a lot and there's no script. Right. But I think that was strategic. Right. If you look at the movies that Skydance has made on its own, for the most part, they've not been very good. And if you're gonna go from eight movies a year to 20.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, they said 15 and then 20. So we should see 15 in the next year or so. Year or two. And then they say hopefully up to 20. That's almost two movies a month.

[Matt Bellamy]

It's a lot. And what's the chance that you can make one good movie every six months? And they said the right thing there, right? Which is we believe in talent. We want Paramount to be home to the best talent. Part of me, the cynical part of me was like, there are no new strategies. There are only new executives. Because you hear that always, right?

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, of course. And new stars and talent. And they're, you know, if they have an eye for this stuff. But as you said, not only have they been making movies that aren't very good, they have been mostly making movies for streaming platforms. If you look at their Slate, Old Guard, Netflix, Fountain of Youth and the Gorge at Apple, like, those are movies that I don't think would have performed in theaters. And yet Now Paramount is talking about doing all their movies for theaters. Cindy Holland basically said, I'm not pursuing direct to streaming movies. So what is going to change at the Paramount studio that is going to turn these mostly streaming movies into movies that feel theatrical? And I asked Ellison straight up, and he went back to the whole talent thing. We want to be in the business with the best talent. We want to have the best ip. And I said, you know, listen, a lot of your IP is pretty tired. You're going to do another Terminator. You're going to do another, you know.

[Matt Bellamy]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[Amy Poehler]

Ninja Turtles, exactly. Like a lot of this stuff has been scraped bare by the previous regimes. And he went back and cited the example of True Grit, which was a very tired, you know, Western that hadn't been made in a long time. And it was one of the first movies that Skydance invested in at Paramount. And he said, everybody told us that it was stale ip, that it wouldn't work. And it did. And it got Oscar nominations and made, you know, two hundred and something million dollars. So he believes that he and his talented executive ranks can breathe new life into some of these franchises. We'll see.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah. I was impressed by what Dana had to say, Goldberg. I thought that she was thoughtful and at this point, the journalist, sort of cynic side of me, which will be happy to write whatever we see. But there's also a bit of, you know, you have to root for them because I'm a little tired of writing the Hollywood circling the drain story.

[Amy Poehler]

I know you can call up Barry Diller and he'll give you quotes on demand about that.

[Matt Bellamy]

God bless them.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes. This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth. From creator Noah Hawley and executive producer Ridley Scott comes the first television series inspired by the legendary Alien film franchise. A spaceship crash lands on Earth, bringing five unique and deadly species more terrifying than anyone could have ever imagined. And a technological advancement marks a new dawn in the race for immortality. FX's alien Earth. All new Tuesdays on FX and Hulu Dive into an Italian summer with Dolce and Gabbana light blue. Visit dolcegabana.com to discover more. All right, so the third aspect of the presentation I thought was interesting was on whether they are selling assets. And the speculation has been that these cable networks are for sale. Bet, Comedy Central, mtv, that they will either spin them off and send them to the floating melting iceberg that is Versant and Warner Brothers Discoveries cable networks, or that they will sell them off individually. If people are interested. They've had offers in the past for BET and for Showtime. Previous regime didn't do it. Shell basically said, they're not selling. They're not selling bet. He said, we want to keep these assets together. Ellison basically said that he didn't promise, but he said to Shari Redstone that the plan is to keep this company together. Did that surprise you?

[Matt Bellamy]

It surprised me that he said, I forget who said that. BET is going to be an important building block of the streaming strategy. I did think that some of those cable networks would still be for sale and they may still be. Who knows? But, you know, I think they shut some down. It sounded like they're not really showing their hand. It's only the seventh day. Yeah, I know, but it sounded like moving them to a very much more streaming, focused streaming first position. Like they brought up Nickelodeon. Nickelodeon just debuted its first show on YouTube.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh my God.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right? Like the fact that that's just happening shows how entrenched in their legacy ways the cable networks have been.

[Amy Poehler]

The squandering of these brands in streaming is one of the great failures of the media business history.

[Matt Bellamy]

These brands in particular.

[Amy Poehler]

These brands in particular, you had youth oriented brands that in the heyday, Viacom was the young cable company where they had these brands, MTV and Nickelodeon and Comedy Central that meant something to young people. And the inability to transition those brands over to digital is just a huge failure.

[Matt Bellamy]

Inability and also just refusal to acknowledge that the greed, the. You could go on and on and on.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, I mean, we, we don't have to relitigate the history of iacom. It's a, it's sad and, and depressing. And there's lots of crooks involved. Most of them dining at restaurants in the greater Palm beach area these days. But the path going forward is like, what do you do with these brands now? And I think that they are essentially saying, we're not going to sell them, but we're open to ideas. Like I could see them bringing in partners who say, okay, we have an idea of what to do with Comedy Central and turn it into something that matters in the digital space and let us do it. Give us a stake, give us, you know, the green light and we will turn this into something. I could see deals like that happening.

[Matt Bellamy]

Could MTV be a channel on TikTok?

[Amy Poehler]

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's kind of amazing that these, these brands aren't leveraged on Paramount plus on their own outlet.

[Matt Bellamy]

Well, they could be, but you can't find it. That platform is so terrible. I mean, the tech there can only get better. It doesn't work.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I know, it's embarrassing. The windowing question was a big one. That was my last topic, the thing that they did make news on. And Jeff Shell, who was the architect of the crunched windows at Universal when he was there, they used the pandemic to essentially take what had been a 45 day, across the board, industry wide exclusive window in theaters. And he blew that up. Said, we're going to do Windows at as early as 17 days. It will go to our streaming platform. Not for every movie, others will take longer. But the speculation has been that he is going to bring that to Paramount. And I think he basically confirmed it.

[Matt Bellamy]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy Poehler]

He said, I don't think each movie is created equal. Different movies deserve different windows. Sometimes I think we're pretty united up here in terms of Theatrical being critical and it has to be part of the equation. But we're also going to be much more diligent about looking at the value.

[Matt Bellamy]

He said, yeah, Universal now, as he set it up, has a 17 day window for things that open what, below 50 million or something. Wicked had a 40 day window and made what I believe $100 million. They've said on P VOD.

[Amy Poehler]

Oh, that was just in the first few weeks or first few, I think first few days. But yeah, I think Universal has done the best job of the studios, at least from what we know, in extracting revenue on different platforms from Theatrical to P VOD to streaming their own service and then licensing out elsewhere. And I think Shell wants to bring that in a more aggressive fashion to Paramount.

[Matt Bellamy]

And that makes two studios that are going to be entrenched in that strategy. So any hope that the exhibitors have of clawing back some exclusivity I think is toast.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, Shell said he has a good relationship with the theaters and he was just on the phone with my friend Adam Aaron at AMC and their pals about this. You know, I don't know what, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Matt Bellamy]

Yeah, they're all pals, right? Everybody's a pal.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, listen, 20 movies a year in theaters would be a big deal for these exhibitors. So it's a trade off. Maybe you get 20 movies a year, but 15 of them are on streaming after 17 days and then five big ones are where you make your money.

[Matt Bellamy]

Right?

[Amy Poehler]

And I think that that's consistent. You know, there are others at Paramount who have not believed in this kind of a system and they think that it's confusing to audiences. It trains them to just think that everything is coming to streaming early. I don't think those people are going to be long for this world at Paramount.

[Matt Bellamy]

One thing he did say right about the layoffs is that they would happen in one fell swoop. They would not be a company that would. You would see layoffs coming in every month. Which seemed to be like a hard stare toward Warner Brothers.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, exactly. He even said it. I think he said warner Brothers has been doing these rolling layoffs or maybe I read it, I don't know. But yeah, and 2 billion in cost cuts. That's a lot of layoffs. And I think a lot of people know they did a town hall yesterday as well and apparently went well. But I know a lot of nervous people at Paramount. Finally here. I just want your sense of David Ellison himself because I feel like a lot of people around town see him as this enigmatic guy. He's been around. People know him as a producer, but, you know, son of the second richest man in the world, has engineered this deal, now owns a studio. Speculation that he's going after more Warner Brothers. TikTok. This is only the beginning of him building this empire. I thought in both of these presentations he's performed pretty well. He was good on cnbc. I have found him in the past to be a little bit stiff, maybe a little socially awkward. I don't think he is anymore. I think he's either grown into his skin, he's been a little bit more media trained. But how do you think Ellison has done in his first week or so, especially when dealing with the media?

[Matt Bellamy]

It really struck me yesterday how much he's grown. To your point. I first met him 15 years ago and the guy that appeared there was naive and had like sort of the spinning pinwheels of Hollywood in his eyes.

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah.

[Matt Bellamy]

And you're sort of like, oh, good luck to you. And the guy that was there yesterday struck me as someone who's grown into this role both in terms of the things that frustrate journalists. Not, you know, keeping. Keeping things private, but also just saying understanding where the business needs to go. His comments about why legacy studios have failed where they've tried and failed, I thought for. Right. You know, spot on and I appreciated it.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, we will see. It's early days, but I agree with you. I think it's. It's cautiously optimistic. That team, you know, he didn't go out and hire a bunch of superstar, you know, poaching the heads of the film groups at Universal or Netflix or one of these places that have Quote, unquote, superstar executives. He's counting a lot on his own people and people he has relationships with. And Cindy Holland, obviously a name in streaming, but we'll see how this team does. I think people are cautiously optimistic. Thank you, Brooks.

[Matt Bellamy]

Thanks. Always appreciate it.

[Amy Poehler]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, you being the Swiftologist that I know you are and following this very closely and also working in the podcast industry as you do as a Spotify employee, I just want to go through some of the numbers that Spotify put out publicly today about the Taylor Swift appearance on New Heights with Jason and Travis Kelce.

[Matt Bellamy]

Her boyfriend.

[Craig Horbeck]

Sure. Her first podcast.

[Amy Poehler]

Yes, her first podcast appearance. So from Spotify, this episode brought over a 3,000% increase in new listeners to the show. There was an overall 2,500% increase in average streams of this episode. We saw a 1,100% jump in listening at around 11:45pm Eastern. That was when it was. The number of females listening to this episode is already 618% higher than the average for the previous five episodes of the show. Even on the first day of its release, women already made up the majority of listeners to New Heights. That's actually surprising, making this increase even more notable.

[Craig Horbeck]

That's hugely surprising. So even if you look at the numbers, that episode was about 81% listened to by women, but the show in general, being over half females, I honestly, I think that shows you that sports fans are not listening to the show. These are already Taylor Swift fans listening to the show.

[Amy Poehler]

Once, once they were revealed as a couple, the Taylor Swift magnet just activated and it just sucked in all of her fans to that show and they listened to every episode for any little nugget about him or about their relationship.

[Craig Horbeck]

I agree. Because in general, athlete podcasts don't sustain and you could even see, even if you just look at the pub, some of the intern. The underlying Spotify metrics suggest this. But if you just look on YouTube, their show has been losing viewers. They've been really, really lucky and fortunate. Obviously with Travis starts dating Taylor, then the Chiefs win the super bowl against Jason Kelsey, then the next year the two teams face off again. So it's like they couldn't have had a more fortuitous series of events take place for their podcast to take off. But the last 10 since the super bowl, the numbers have really dropped off and it's almost like Taylor Swift did her boyfriend a favor, almost like she.

[Amy Poehler]

Was thinking about business and not their relationship. When she went on that show.

[Craig Horbeck]

She was a small business in New Heights, which was a small business compared to what she's doing.

[Amy Poehler]

It's true, it's true. This, it's all been leading up to this. And you know Wondry also, which produces and distributes the show, that's the Amazon unit that just had huge layoffs, fired a bunch of people. They are downsizing their aspirations. And remember, New Heights got a deal worth reportedly $100 million to go to Wondry's. So this is what everyone was betting on. When you bet on the Kelsey's, you are betting on Taylor Swift participating. They got it. And we'll see where it goes from here. Maybe how many of those people are going to stick around?

[Craig Horbeck]

Well, yeah, that, that's the thing. I mean, I think this episode has the potential. I would probably guess that on YouTube this will be a top five most watched podcasts of all time. I think it's going to get to around 30 million, 35 million people, which would put it in around the top five ever.

[Amy Poehler]

Okay, that's good that you mentioned that because I want to figure out a line for us to do a prediction on today and you know more about this stuff than I do. Spotify keeps me in the dark about my own stats. I certainly don't have access to the stuff that you have access to. So you believe that when all is said and done, the Taylor Swift appearance on New Heights will be a top five most watched or most listened to podcasts. Explain your terms here.

[Craig Horbeck]

Most watched, not most listened to New Heights is not on video on Spotify. I don't know if they have an exclusive deal with YouTube or if it's an advertising situation, but they're not on video on Spotify. So it will be the most listened to New Heights episode on Spotify. But in terms of just all time podcasts on Spotify, it won't be up there just because of the no video thing. Right now everybody who wants to listen to this is going to want to see her face and watch it on YouTube.

[Amy Poehler]

Well, and what is the most listened to podcast of all time? Do you know that I believe it.

[Craig Horbeck]

Is Joe Rogan and Donald Trump.

[Amy Poehler]

I think you are right.

[Craig Horbeck]

Basically, if you look at all the top podcast episodes ever, you need three things. You either need Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, Donald Trump or maybe Theo Vaughan. And if you combine them, they all.

[Amy Poehler]

Did a show together.

[Craig Horbeck]

Well, it's like Theo Vaughn's most listened most watched episode ever is Trump. Rogan's best episode ever is Trump. It usually is always Donald Trump. But Taylor Swift is challenging that, but it won't be Spotify, unfortunately, won't reap those benefits just because it's not on video there. But I do think on YouTube had 12 million views in the first 24 hours, which is a ton.

[Amy Poehler]

Wow. Good for them. Good for everyone. So you say it will be a top five most watched podcasts on YouTube. And I will agree with that.

[Craig Horbeck]

Yeah. I mean, it will certainly be the most clipped outside of Donald Trump. I mean, I already can't avoid it.

[Amy Poehler]

All right, so everybody wins.

[Craig Horbeck]

Taylor, are you gonna listen?

[Amy Poehler]

Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll listen this weekend. I don't know if I have two hours for it, but I'll listen.

[Craig Horbeck]

That's what's impressive. I. I thought she was gonna be on for 41 minutes. She was on for almost two hours and it was live.

[Amy Poehler]

I know. Listen, she does what she needs to do. She's selling an album, she's selling her boyfriend, so good for them. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Brooks Barnes, producer Craig Horbeck, artist Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.

[Brooks Barnes]

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