Part 2: James Cameron on ‘Avatar 4’ and ‘5,’ Movie Biz Fears, 3D, Netflix, and Aliens

Summary

The Town with Matthew Belloni

Part 2: James Cameron on ‘Avatar 4’ and ‘5,’ Movie Biz Fears, 3D, Netflix, and Aliens

Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Matthew Belloni
Guest: James Cameron

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Matthew Belloni sits down for a second, in-depth conversation with legendary filmmaker James Cameron at Cameron’s Manhattan Beach studio. The focus is on the business of making movies—especially the "Avatar" sequels—covering the state of Hollywood, the future of theatrical releases, VFX budgets, studio dynamics, streaming threats, 3D filmmaking, AI, and more. Cameron delivers candid insights about his creative process, career decisions, and thoughts on technology’s encroachment on artistry. A rapid-fire "lightning round" closes out the session, with Cameron sharing stories about friends, his filmmaking ethos, and even a touch of alien speculation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

James Cameron’s Pre-Release Nerves and Confidence

• Belloni recalls Cameron’s apparent confidence at the first "Avatar" reviews, but Cameron insists he’s always nervous before a release ([02:34]–[03:16]).
  • Cameron: “Every time you put out a film, your mind racks up all the potential negatives, all the forces against you.”
  • "Sequelitis" and the changing theatrical landscape (down 25% from 2019) have made the stakes even higher.

The Business of Big Movies and Hollywood’s Challenges

• Discussion on greenlighting expensive VFX-driven films in the streaming era ([04:09]).
  • "Where does the young, up and coming aspiring filmmaker... get their foothold? They don’t." ([05:01])
  • Studios are risk-averse, big budget originals are rare.
• Cameron tried to get involved with high-cost musicals like "Wicked" but found it too difficult to break in ([04:38]).

Artistic Integrity & AI Risks

• Strong opinions about preserving artists' intent, referencing the controversial reformatting of "The Wizard of Oz" for The Sphere in Vegas ([05:54]).
  • “I’m vehemently opposed to people changing somebody else’s art.” ([05:57])
• Addresses AI’s potential for misusing actors’ likenesses; insists on “informed consent” as vital ([08:03]).
  • “That is where that informed consent of the artist needs to be really entrenched and protected.”

Streaming, Studio Consolidation, and the Future of Theatrical

• Discusses the shifting business landscape: Paramount’s sale, big tech in Hollywood, and why Netflix shouldn’t buy Warner Bros. ([08:51]).
  • On Netflix: “Netflix would be a disaster. Sorry, Ted, but jeez... Sarandos has gone on record saying theatrical films are dead.” ([08:57])
  • On Oscars: “A movie should be made as a movie for theatrical. And the Academy Awards to me mean nothing if they don’t mean theatrical... I think [they’ve] been co-opted, and I think it’s horrific.” ([09:25])
• Streaming’s early lure for top talent is fading; studios slashing budgets, big spectacle is threatened ([11:25]).

The Fate and Costs of "Avatar" Sequels

• Clarifies that "Avatar" film costs are amortized across multiple projects, dodges specifics but jokes:
  • "It is one metric fuck ton of money, which means that we have to make 2 metric fuck tons of money to make a profit." ([18:15])
• Openly admits he’d walk away if the films stop making enough money:
  • “If this is where it ends, cool.” ([18:39])
  • Refuses to hand over the franchise to someone else—would only stay on as a closely involved producer ([19:14]).

3D Filmmaking: Why Others Haven’t Followed

• 3D on "Avatar" set is streamlined and not a burden ([14:58]).
  • "3D takes up about two minutes of my day, if that... My team is so well versed... We know what we’re doing.” ([15:00])
• Studios opt for post-conversion 3D for control and budget reasons, but Cameron asserts this results in inferior quality:
  • “Conversion costs more money than the incremental cost of shooting 3D..." ([16:00])

Cameron’s Relationship with Disney

• Describes the dynamic as “respectful” and “collaborative” ([21:18]).
  • Praises Bob Iger for supportive, decisive leadership:
    • “He basically shot them down on their notes. And I was like, okay, we’re done here.” ([22:25])
• Describes their notes process as a two-way street, with Cameron integrating many studio notes but ultimately retaining final say ([23:01]).

Inspiration, Themes, and Test Screenings

• World-building originates from Cameron’s detailed dreams and lifelong imagination ([24:20]).
• Emphasis on cinema as a communal, event-based experience:
  • “That’s cinema, right?... That wouldn’t have happened sitting on your sofa watching, watching Netflix.” ([25:00])
• Home viewing is fine, but the big screen offers a unique layer ([25:11]).

Current and Future Projects

• "Ghosts of Hiroshima" is in development but not scheduled ([19:40]).
• Billie Eilish documentary filmed in 3D—originated through sustainability activism connections; Eilish is a co-director ([27:04]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Big Budgets:

  • "It is one metric fuck ton of money, which means that we have to make 2 metric fuck tons of money." — Cameron ([18:15])

• On AI and Likeness Rights:

  • "The critical point here is informed consent... and that is where that informed consent of the artist needs to be really entrenched and protected." — Cameron ([08:03])

• On Netflix and Theatrical:

  • "A movie should be made as a movie for theatrical. And the Academy Awards to me mean nothing if they don't mean theatrical." — Cameron ([09:25])

• On Dreaming Worlds:

  • “I dreamed the world.” — Cameron on creating "Avatar" ([24:23])

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Lightning Round Highlights ([27:27]–[36:44])

• Panic Scale about Hollywood:

  • “Seven to eight. It’s enough of a fire alarm that we’ve got to do stuff and fast.” ([27:44])

• Existential Threats to Humanity:

  • Ranks: "Super intelligence, nuclear, and not just climate but environmental in general." ([28:29])

• On McConaughey’s Titanic Audition:

  • “I said, so, Matthew, would you like to do another take?... He said, ‘No, I’m good.’” ([31:53])

• Friendship:

  • “Guillermo del Toro, for sure... Bit of a coin toss between him and Catherine [Bigelow].” ([32:41])

• On Aliens:

  • “I think that if aliens are out there and if they come here, I don’t think they care about us that much... their way of processing the world might... be so different... that there’s actually no common ground and we might not even recognize their artifacts.” ([35:23])

• On Vegan Restaurants:

  • Props Los Angeles with named favorites, acknowledges some good finds in New Zealand ([36:13]).

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Selected Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote Highlights | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:34 | Cameron’s pre-release nerves and focus on the market | | 05:54 | Opposition to reworking classic films and protecting artistic intent | | 08:51 | Streaming, studio consolidation, and why Netflix shouldn’t buy Warner Bros | | 14:58 | Cameron on why real 3D filmmaking is rare and easy for his team | | 18:15 | Evasive answer on Avatar budgets—"a metric fuck ton of money" | | 19:40 | Status of "Ghosts of Hiroshima," other Cameron projects | | 21:14 | Relationship with Disney/Bob Iger | | 24:20 | Origin of world-building from Cameron’s dreams | | 25:00 | The value of theatrical experience—cinema as more than just content | | 27:44 | Panic scale on Hollywood’s future | | 28:29 | Threats to humanity ranked | | 31:53 | McConaughey’s "Titanic" audition anecdote | | 32:41 | Best filmmaker friends: Guillermo del Toro and Kathryn Bigelow | | 35:23 | Cameron’s philosophy on alien life | | 36:13 | Best vegan restaurants: LA vs. New Zealand |

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Tone & Style

• Cameron is frank, technical, and uncompromising on artistic matters, but playful when discussing personal projects, friendships, and industry anecdotes.
• Belloni maintains the role of inquisitor, pushing for insider details but also bringing levity in the lightning round.

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Conclusion

Fans and industry watchers will find a goldmine of insight in this episode, as James Cameron details both the creative and business complexities of modern filmmaking, reveals his unwavering standards, recounts once-in-a-lifetime anecdotes, and muses on the uncertain future of big-screen spectacle. The conversation underscores Cameron’s rare blend of visionary imagination and practical mastery of the film business, all with his trademark candor and wit.

Transcript

[A]

This episode of the Town is brought to you by Netflix Presenting Frankenstein, a film by Academy Award winning director and writer Guillermo Del Toro. A retelling of the classic novel about what it means to be human, to crave love and seek understanding. Starring Oscar Isaac, Jacob Elordi, Mia Goth and Christoph Waltz. The New York Times raves Frankenstein is stunning. The movie Guillermo del Toro was born to make. Now playing on Netflix for your awards consideration.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheezy, Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You can just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about?

[C]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Oh, Cheez It.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Cheez It Crackers. Go check em out.

[A]

It is still Monday, November 24th, and I am here with part two of Jim Cameron. We're taping this at his Manhattan beach studio in his personal screening room where Craig and I watched Fire and Ash. Today we are talking about the business stuff, what he's going to do with Avatar 4 and 5, whether he'll walk away if this one doesn't do well, the budgets for his films, how Fox and now Disney got the movie in the first place, who should buy Warner Brothers and why it shouldn't be Netflix. What do you think of the sphere in Vegas, his director friends?

[C]

A lot.

[A]

Plus the Return of the Lightning round today is Jim Cameron Part 2 from the Ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. But you've always had this innate confidence. I remember back in 2009, I did a roundtable for Hollywood Reporter. It was an amazing group. It was you. It was Kathryn Bigelow, Lee Daniels, Quentin Tarantino, Jason Reitman, Peter Jackson. And it was the morning after the London premiere.

[C]

Yes. Right.

[A]

And you had just screened the movie publicly and the reviews had just come out.

[C]

They were pretty ecstatic.

[A]

They were over the moon, positive. And we were all shocked. We're like, oh my God, this is.

[C]

Going to be a thing, not a turkey.

[A]

And I said to you, I remember saying this to you, like, these reviews are amazing. And you're like, yeah, they are like you. You were pretty sure they were going to be good.

[C]

This is not quite accurate. I remember my wife Susie and I being in the. In. In our suite where. Wherever it was in, in London, at the Bristol or what. Literally reading Reviews out loud to each other and just laughing our asses off and having another round of champagne. It was like. No, it was pretty exciting.

[A]

You were nervous. Do you get nervous?

[C]

Always. Always.

[A]

Any film you're nervous about Avatar.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

You are.

[C]

Why? Why would I be nervous about Avatar 3?

[A]

Well, I mean, let's say if I'm the. If I'm the Disney, you know the.

[C]

Business, you see what's happening out there.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. The theatrical market is where it is down. The movie does not have 12 years of anticipation like Avatar 2 did. The marketing challenge on this is how do we distinguish it? How do we make it feel different? But also the world of Avatar that you love, there's lots of challenges, but you consistently have performed. And I, and everyone in town says, never bet against Jim Cameron. It's interesting that you have doubts still.

[C]

No, no, absolutely. Look, every time you put out a film, your mind racks up all the potential negatives, all the forces against you. Right. Sequelitis. People tend to dismiss sequels unless it's the third Lord of the Rings film and you want to see what happens to everybody, which in my mind, this is. This is the culmination of a story arc. But that may not be how the public sees it. I think the biggest factor right now is the streaming on Covid one two Punch that really hammered our business. And the fact that people have redirected their habit path patterns have redirected to streaming, to prioritizing access and availability and comfort over venturing out, going to the dedicated experience. People are still going to the movies, but it's only 75% of what it was in 19. And it hasn't rebounded.

[A]

It's gotta be an event now.

[C]

Yeah, it has to be an event. And so that's really narrowing. I think it's an impact on the entire business in terms of what studios can green light. And it goes back to that thing we were talking about with the respect to. To cost. The kind of movies that I like to watch, let's say Dune or even Wicked. Right. I almost made Wicked back when it was, you know, really. I really love the story. I mean, wizard of Oz is one of my favorite. This is going back 15.

[A]

You talked to Universal about it?

[C]

Yeah, I didn't. I think they've redone some of the music. I couldn't. I couldn't find this.

[A]

Very different.

[C]

I couldn't find the song. No, maybe not.

[A]

Maybe not, maybe not. You got a musical in you?

[C]

I don't know. I don't know. Well, my favorite movie is a Musical.

[A]

What's that?

[C]

Wizard of Oz. Right. But anyway, the point is, so. So let's say Dune. Wicked. All right. They don't have a lot in common as storytelling, but they both have big sets and they cost a lot of money. In VFX. I couldn't even say 100 million in VFX. I'm just guessing. Wildly. Wildly. Don't hold me to any of that. But the point is, how many movies are going to get green lit where you're spending that amount of money on VFX that are not tried and true blue chip ip? Where does the young up and coming aspiring filmmaker with whose head. Whose head is bursting with ideas like the Terminator and Aliens and the Abyss and that, where do they get their foothold? They don't.

[A]

It's got to be cheaper.

[C]

Yeah, it's got to be cheaper.

[A]

By the way, have you seen wizard of Oz at the Sphere?

[C]

Not yet, but it's interested in that. I'm very interested because I like the sphere as a format or sphere as a format. And I'm looking for a way to actually do something myself. I want to see the decisions that they made around linear narrative with cutting to close ups and medium shots and wide shots and how well that worked.

[A]

A lot of people call it a butchering of an artist.

[C]

No, but that's another matter. See, I was. I hadn't gotten to the other shoe dropping, which is that I. I'm vehemently opposed to people changing somebody else's art. Right. So Victor Fleming and I think three or four other directors all worked on that film. But nevertheless, there were artists, probably more the. The producer, you know, Selznick time. But there were artists who made a film. They're all dead. Their estates are not, to my knowledge, involved in this. The studio that owned the IP has decided they're going to completely revisit those artistic decisions.

[A]

They put the CEO of the company in the movie.

[C]

That kind of tells you, you know.

[A]

Where the David Zaslav is in the movie.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. All right, fine. What, as a munchkin or what?

[A]

No, they're floating by in the tornado scene in a boat.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Me and Jim Dolan.

[C]

Okay. All right, fine. Have fun with. Have fun with that. Like a filmmaker like you that's fiddling while Rome burns.

[A]

Right, But a filmmaker like you would never allow that.

[C]

Well, I mean, look, I mean, once you're dead, there's not a lot you can do about it unless you've set things in motion and a framework exists. But I think this is Going to become more relevant to actors and their Persona. So I think a perfect example. I haven't talked about this with Sigourney, but Sigourney is so closely associated with Ripley. There's. The Ripley played by Sigourney is now something that exists in our zeitgeist.

[A]

It's a type.

[C]

It's an archetype. It's not just an archetype that other people emulate. It's actually a character played by a specific actor that we all think is great, and we can't imagine anybody else playing or. That doesn't mean they won't cast somebody else as Ripley at some point. But the point is, Sigourney could theoretically sell that imprimatur of her voice and her image associated with that character and benefit from it financially. Or she may say, as an artist, that's a horrific concept to me, and I would never do that. My performance is what defined me.

[A]

You see, these artists that are. That are selling their name and likeness and voice for AI. James Earl Jones did it before he died.

[C]

He made that decision. But the critical point here is informed consent. Right? He knew how it might. How it would be used. He knew what the possibilities were with the technology, and he decided to sell that. Right. Great. That's his decision. Sigourney's decision or anybody else's decision might be very, very different, you know, and that is where that informed consent of the artist needs to be really entrenched and protected.

[A]

So let's talk a little bit about the business. How much do you follow the headlines in town and what's going on?

[C]

A little. You know, I just kind of keep my head down. Swimming, get the movie.

[A]

But the. The ground is moving, shifting under our feet, Right? Yeah. I mean, you made a movie with David Ellison. Terminator movie. What do you think of him buying Paramount and trying to take over Warner Brothers?

[C]

I think he's the best possible choice.

[A]

You do?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Above Netflix, Above Comcast.

[C]

Oh, Netflix would be a disaster. Sorry, Ted, but jeez. Sarandos has gone on record saying theatrical films are dead.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No, theatrical is dead. Quote unquote. Theatrical is dead.

[A]

I don't know if he said that, but he said that. It's an outmoded experience.

[C]

It's a quote.

[A]

For most.

[C]

It's a quote, at least to the extent that you can verify.

[A]

But now he's promising theaters if they buy Warner Brothers.

[C]

I know, but it's. But it's.

[A]

He doesn't believe that.

[C]

It's sucker bait.

[A]

Yes, right.

[C]

It's Sucker bait. And we'll put the movie out for a week. We'll put it out for 10 days. We'll qualify for Academy Awards consideration. See, I think that's fundamentally rotten at the core. A movie should be made as a movie for theatrical. And the Academy Awards to me mean nothing if they don't mean theatrical. And I think they've been co opted and I think it's horrific.

[A]

You don't think Netflix should be allowed to compete for Oscars?

[C]

They should be allowed to compete if they put the movie out for a meaningful release in 2000 theaters for a month.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, the Academy has recently changed its rules, so you have to be on 50 screens for best Picture consideration.

[C]

Fucking break.

[A]

We're going to some of these. We're going to be on, we're going.

[C]

To be on 7,500 screens. Okay.

[A]

Your movie is on another plane.

[C]

Okay? So take an indie. Take an indie that gets bought. You know, take an A24 film, whatever. They're not going out with less than a thousand.

[A]

Yeah, some do, though. Some, you know, these, some of these foreign films that are getting nominated now, they do a small release, but in.

[C]

Their home territories, I'm sure they saturate that territory, you know, at the scale that they play out in, you know, Spain or Norway or whatever.

[A]

So you think, you think Netflix would be a disaster for Warner Brothers, but.

[C]

You know, big Warner Brothers would just, would just become a streamer, you know, and so now you've lost an actual theatrical major and now you've just increased that, that avalanche, that sort of downhill trend. Because the thing is, streaming got its foothold with the art artistic base that, that they did. And I'm not just saying Netflix, I'm saying all of them. By throwing crazy money at it and attracting the A list talent and then pulling the carpet out from underneath that. Right. So now budgets are half or a third of what they were. The movies like Dune, Wicked, Avatar, whatever, they're not getting greenlit for streaming and they're also not getting greenlit by, by the theatrical side of the, of the existing majors. Right. So now there's a. It's, it's fallen through the middle.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, Netflix has tried. They've did a Zack Snyder movie, they've done some Russo Brothers movies that are on the level of budgets that you would get that stuff. It just hasn't really worked because that's not their business. It's not their business. You're right.

[C]

Yeah. It's Disney's business. Yes, it's Historically been Paramount's business. It's historically been Warner Brothers business. They did very well with the, with the Dune films. You know, they, they play at that level.

[A]

But big tech is here to stay, is it not? I mean, one of the biggest movies of the year is F1. That was the finance and released. Not released, but financed by Apple.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And I enjoyed F1. I bet you did too.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. But that's, that's the, the point that I'm making is that we got to bring the big imaginative films, whether it's science fiction or historical or fantasy. Any place that takes you out of a location and differentiates from the kind of indie, you know, kind of dramatic market or the rom com market or whatever the big fantasy, science fiction, imaginative movies require vfx. VFX are expensive. So if the curve of VFX costs continuously rises and the curve of affordability of those movies is come, or the, let's say the green lighting curve is coming down and theatrical is coming down. When those curves cross, those movies don't exist anymore. Okay. And the few people making them like me, age out and then pretty and the people coming up behind them aren't, aren't trained in it. Right.

[A]

You mentioned the training and that's a question I wanted to ask you. Since Avatar came out huge hit, no one has been able to do what you are doing. Why is that? Why are there no movies that are made with 3D in mind like this, not converted or not what they're doing to others. Everyone said at the time that Avatar came out, oh, the 3D revolution is here. There's going to be 3D movies, there's going to be movies.

[C]

And it was, it was for a.

[A]

While a little bit, but then.

[C]

Well, it wasn't a little bit. It was about 10 years.

[A]

But nobody's doing what you're doing. Why can nobody do this?

[C]

They're doing it with conversion. So your Marvel films typically are released in 3D through conversion. Sucks. I know. And you had other top filmmakers were experimenting with it like Scorsese and Ang Lee and so on that actually authored in 3D. And the result is that there are movies like Prometheus and Life of Pine and Hugo looked spectacular. Ridley Scott, I'd left him off that list. But so they all experimented with it. And I think the tool set was a bit cumbersome. But by the way, so is 70 millimeter. And that didn't stop Ryan Coogler from shooting sinners with 100 pound camera. Because he believed in it. Right. But I think the biggest limitation on 3D has been light levels in the theater.

[A]

What is your preferred format?

[C]

I prefer Dolby Vision and IMAX about equally. IMAX is a bigger screen. They don't quite hit the light levels of Dolby Vision, but it's a big screen and 3D wants you to sit close and fill your field of view. Right. Dolby Vision is a little bit smaller screen, but they have brighter light levels because of laser projection. And when they go onto big screens, they do dual laser projection.

[A]

But that doesn't answer the question though, of why can nobody do what you do? When I watch an Avatar movie and you are going inside the helicopter, showing me a whale coming towards it, showing me a creature coming towards it and into the audience and you get the full view of what's going on and it is absolutely thrilling. Why can nobody replicate that in 3D?

[C]

Yeah, look, I don't know. It's a personal choice, I guess, as.

[A]

A huge pain in the ass.

[C]

No, it's not a pain in the ass at all. Let me tell you, on an avatar set, 3D takes up about two minutes of my day, if that. Because every once in a while there'll be something that we're doing that's a bit unconventional, maybe some splashing coming toward the camera or something that I know might be a bit of an issue. And I'll go over and look at a playback of the take that takes me an extra 30 seconds. And maybe that happens two or three times a day. My team is so well versed in shooting good 3D. We've been doing it for 25 years. We know what we're doing.

[A]

And you don't have any pushback from the studio, from Disney. Do you ever. What is your. What are your conversations?

[C]

If you want to really drill down on this. Yes. And you're a drill down. You're a drill down person.

[A]

I am a drill down person.

[C]

All right. When the studio tells a production to shoot in 3D, everything that goes wrong on the movie is 3D's fault.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

So that creates a sense on the studio's part over a period of years. We're not going to mess with 3D. We're going to do conversion. Now the. The issue is that in fact, conversion costs more money than the incremental cost of shooting 3D, which is not zero, you know, but it might be 2 to 4% of your entire production budget. It's not a big deal. As opposed to cramming in a fast, bad conversion into your post schedule and spending 5 to 8 million dollars doing that just right out the window to a conversion house to get a. A mediocre to bad result that the filmmaker has not put into their authoring.

[A]

It's in imbuing the production with the 3D ethos.

[C]

It's viewing.

[A]

But I'm talking larger.

[C]

No, no, but the bigger picture is that puts the studio in the control position.

[A]

Right.

[C]

If the filmmaker wants to do it, they're. They're along for the ride, they're paying for the, for the Delta. Right. What if they decide in post they don't like the movie and they don't want to spend as much money on it as they might have? Or they can see a film that's a little bit of a kind of a sleeper hit and they can throw money at just shifts control from the filmmaker to the studio. That's what it's all been about. And at the same time you have 95% of theaters are inferior light levels. 95%. It's not a trivial number. Right. So you got a few premium screens and you can bet that when we show it to the press and we show it to the critics and all that we make sure the light levels are there.

[A]

I'm sure this room has the correct light level.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it looks pretty good. Right? You've seen it.

[A]

Y.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But is it even possible for you to come up with a number of what an Avatar movie costs?

[C]

Oh, yeah, sure. We have, we have this little thing we like to call accounting.

[A]

No, I know, but you, you're making them. You know, you have people that are employees that are making multiple movies. Like what. What does this movie cost?

[C]

Yeah, it's all, it all goes. It all goes into a big pot that amortizes across the two movies. And our R and D that we spend with our VFX providers gets amortized across multiple movies and all that sort of thing. But those are all, those are all just schemes. If you think coming into this interview that, that I am going to answer a question that you need to ask Bob Iger, you got another dream coming.

[A]

But what would Bob Iger tell me?

[C]

That's up to him. It's his money.

[A]

Like 300, 400.

[C]

That's up to him. It's his money.

[A]

My point is it doesn't matter because they know you're going to perform.

[C]

I can answer the question in the following way. It is one metric fuck ton of money, which means that we have to make 2 metric fuck tons of money.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

To make a profit.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I have no doubt in my mind that this movie will make money. The question is, does it make enough money to justify doing it again?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And where are you on that? Have you. Are you ready to walk away if it doesn't grow to a billion?

[C]

Absolutely. I mean, I've been in. I've been in an avatar land for 20 years. Actually 30 years, because I wrote it in 95. Right. But I wasn't working continuously on it for those first 10 years. There was a big brief flurry of interest in 95. And then everybody said, you're out of your mind, and I shelved it for 10 years. And then we got serious in 2005. Yeah, absolutely. Sure. If this is where it ends, cool.

[A]

But there's open threads there. You know, I know it's a. It's a story that has an end.

[C]

But one open thread, there's. Okay, one open thread. I'll write a book. Okay. That's for everybody.

[A]

Or you hand it over to someone else.

[C]

Absolutely not.

[A]

No, you don't hand it over to someone else.

[C]

Well, look, I mean, I have choices there. I can, I can. There are. There are levels in which I am immersed.

[A]

Yeah, you've talked about maybe not.

[C]

I could produce it. I don't think there'd ever be a version where there's another Avatar movie that I didn't produce closely. Right. But in terms of it taking over my life, you know, that's. That's a threshold issue for me.

[A]

And you're doing this other Ghosts of Hiroshima movie.

[C]

I have 10 other projects. That one just sort of hit the headlines briefly because of the book announcement.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And trying to push the book to a bestseller because the author is a friend of mine. It doesn't mean I'm not going to make the film, but I'm written the script and it's not slated right now and I don't even have a distribution partner on it, so it's a pretty much a vaporware project right now.

[A]

Well. And you've got to do your musical that's inside of you.

[C]

Well, I've got a couple of other projects that I've. That I've purchased or optioned or written, so.

[B]

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[A]

How would you describe your relationship with Disney?

[C]

Very, very good.

[A]

No, no, not very good. Give me a more descriptive word.

[C]

Respectful.

[A]

Respectful.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. Collaborative. Okay, Right. So there's Steve Asbel, who runs the Fox unit, but I. I work more closely with Alan and. And Bob weighs in because it's a big chunk of change for those guys. Bob Iger, Right?

[A]

When Bob Iger weighs in, what does he say? And what is he. What are his comments?

[C]

Typically, he's interesting. He doesn't weigh in until there's something for me to show.

[A]

Does it need to be 3:15? Is that what he says?

[C]

No, no. He. He watched his comment when he watched the film for the first time, even though it was at 3 hours, 23 minutes, not including credits at that point. So it's gotten about 20 minutes shorter or 18 minutes shorter since then. He said, yeah, I know you're gonna keep. Keep, you know, chopping away at it. He said, but it's magnificent. That's magnificent, he said. He basically said, I love this film. And it was interesting because there were other heads on the zoom that were bringing up notes. And he said, yeah, I didn't have a problem with that. He basically shot them down on their notes. And I was like, okay, we're done here.

[A]

Wow, that's nice.

[C]

No, it was a fun time.

[A]

He's got a big investment. They're doing an Avatar land in Disneyland. They're doing a lot.

[C]

So I sidebarred the notes comment, and I said, all right, you guys write up your. The things that you know, because you're very savvy, you've done a lot of movies, you know what works? I said, just send me all your stuff. And then I. I respond, you know, line by line, paragraph by paragraph. I say, okay, if you're feeling that, it's not a hill I want to die on, I can take that out. You know, I don't agree with you on this one. And here's why. And so, you know, they'll bat maybe 50% of the notes, get some traction.

[A]

Very reasonable process. That is not what I expected on a notes call.

[C]

Oh, I don't. I'm. I'm never. Hey, let me be the artist and, and, you know, I'll figure this all out and you guys will all be happy. I don't do that. You know, I. There was one thing that went round where they didn't like the scene. They had specific reasons. I was fond of it, but I said, okay, fine, I'll. I'll take it out. And because we had also gotten some notes from the. From the audience at A2 recruited sneaks. And you do that.

[A]

You do test.

[C]

I took the scene out and it just bothered me for like two months. And I finally wrote, you know, Alan. Alan Bergman. Obviously, I wrote him a note and I said, I'm putting the scene back in because I feel it's. It's a scene I like. Look, people ask me, well, why. Why are you getting stuck in a rut of Avatar? I said, it's not a rut. It's an opportunity. It's an opportunity for me to explore all different aspects of. Of family, of humanity, of. Of, you know, conservation and the environment. All the things that are important to me. You know, as a father and as a sustainability advocate and all that sort of thing. I could explore everything I need to explore within that very, very broad canvas.

[A]

You know, that's a compliment when people say that they. They want you to do something else or whatever, but it's there.

[C]

But they're imposing their wants and needs on my reality, and that doesn't go very far.

[A]

You came up with this when you were a kid. You had the whole thing in your head.

[C]

Well, 19. I dreamed. I dreamed the world.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and you dreamed this world. You. I believe you dreamed the Terminator.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And there was something else that. Oh, the abyss was. Was a. A personal. Something personal about you.

[C]

Yeah. And. And is that your inspiration? There's a scene in Aliens that's right out of a dream when she goes into the egg chamber and realizes she has inadvertently walked into the most dangerous place in the universe.

[A]

It's a great scene.

[C]

Yeah, right. And everything goes quiet and you just hear the. The breathing. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I saw that when I was nine and I put my legs up on the chair because I was so terrified of something coming below me.

[C]

Yeah. Cool. That's cinema, right?

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[C]

Cinema. That wouldn't have happened sitting on your sofa watching, Watching Netflix.

[A]

Not not on Netflix. I mean, do you get mad when people discover your movies on home video?

[C]

No, no, no.

[A]

Avatar 2 was, was in the top 10 last night on Disney plus because people are watching it to get ready for this.

[C]

Cool.

[A]

That doesn't bother you?

[C]

No, no, not at all, not at all. As long as they keep in the back of their minds that they're there is a part of the experience that they're not having.

[A]

Right. You know, Yeah. I was curious why you were doing a Billie Eilish documentary and then I saw that you have a 19 year old daughter. Is that the reason?

[C]

Actually my, my kids aren't especially fans of Billy. They're not, not fans, but they're not especially fans. I've sort of just admired her career from, from when she was 15. I just think she's remarkable as an artist. But it had to do with my wife. Susie is in sustainability and plant based foods and that sort of thing. And she knows Billy's mom, Maggie very well. And Maggie has even adopted some of Susie's one meal a day ethos in her food campaigns. When they go on the global tour and they go into cities and they provide meals not only just for the crew but also for the local community that are plant based, like scrumptious plant based foods that you could sort of realize that you could adopt that into your, into your diet. So she's doing good work. Maggie was going to come in as an executive producer. I think she still is on a sequel to the Game Changers which is a film that Susie and I exec produced that's about plant based athletes. Right. And I, and I was, and we're going to shoot that in 3D. And I was demonstrating 3D for Maggie and I said, Maggie, why aren't we shooting the Hit Me Hard and soft tour in 3D? And she said, I'll ask Billy. Now I hadn't met Billy at that point. Now Billy and I met and I said, look, our goal here would just be to shoot your show. I don't want to impose myself as a director. In fact, I even offered her, why don't we co direct this? Because you directed the show. I'll just show up with cameras and record it essentially. And it's grown a little bit creatively beyond that.

[A]

Yeah, you were just in Arizona shooting some stuff.

[C]

We're co directors. It's fun. It's fun. I mean she and I have a good, she and I have a good vibe and I kind of get her. And in interviews I'm able to Kind of get her to unpack a little bit of her process. So there'll be a bit of that in the film as well. Anyway, it's been a fun romp and I've. It's something to take my mind off of Avatar after, you know, three years of finishing, I imagine. Yeah. Finishing Fire.

[A]

We're going to do a lightning round to end this.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Quick questions, quick answers.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And then we'll move on. No, no follow up.

[C]

Okay. All right. But like 25 words or less?

[A]

Something like that, yeah. All right. On a scale of 1 to 10, where are you on the panic scale about the state of Hollywood?

[C]

You know, Hollywood has been declared dead many times in my lifetime and even before that, you know, the advent of television, you know, this is another crisis. So I would say seven to eight maybe. I think it's enough of a fire alarm that we've got to do stuff and fast.

[A]

Last movie you saw in a public movie theater, not screening room weapons, which I did.

[C]

You like it? Yeah, it was fun. I mean the kids, the kids are horror fans and when I say the kids, they're all 18 to 20 somethings now, but we made a family day of it.

[A]

Nice. You have said that there are three existential threats to humanity. Climate, nuclear weapons and super intelligence. Rank them in terms of the most threatening to the least threatening.

[C]

I would go super intelligence, nuclear, and not just climate, but environmental in general. Climate being a big part of that.

[A]

One to ten on the panic scale, where are you on the climate change crisis?

[C]

It's a 10. It's a 9 or a 10 because I mean, we're going backwards and at the point that you inflect and start going the wrong direction, you're driving off a cliff, singing with the radio up, you know, loud.

[A]

What's an Easter egg in this Avatar movie or any of the Avatar movies that only you and your colleagues would know. Is there.

[C]

Oh, there was a good one, but we just took it out.

[A]

Oh, tell me.

[C]

Well, it was, it was a stupid. It was a navi joke.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So this guy, this Ash guy says, yeah, last time I got two, meaning two women in the. In the village. He's like bragging and the other guy goes, yeah, but they were the ugliest. The ugliest in the village. And the guy goes, hey, two, four. Still an eight because they only have three fingers. So it's an octal based numbering system that's very inside.

[A]

Yes, if you have to explain it.

[C]

Yeah. Finally I said, two mathematicians in the world will get this.

[A]

That's funny.

[C]

And so I took it out.

[A]

You went to the bottom of the Mariana Trench?

[C]

Well, let me just correct you on that. Everybody says that the Mariana Trench is 1500 miles long, and it varies in depth all over the place. I went to the bottom of the Challenger Deep.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And to the deepest place in the Challenger Deep, which is called the East Basin.

[A]

Okay. What did you see there that you are not telling us?

[C]

Well, if I haven't said it so far, world exclusive, what makes you think I would tell it now? Are you talking about the alien civilization? Oh, did I say that out loud?

[A]

Not civilization, but evidence of a civilization.

[C]

I'm not going to say anything more on that subject.

[A]

Interesting. Okay, save it for the documentary.

[C]

Look, I shot a documentary about those dives. If I had found anything remotely that cool, it would have been in there.

[A]

Unless, trust me, unless powers that be came in and took it out or threatened you or something.

[C]

You never know.

[A]

Conspiracy. All right. Did McConaughey really refuse to do additional takes in his audition for Titanic?

[C]

I wouldn't say that he refused because.

[A]

John wrote that in his book.

[C]

He declined.

[A]

He declined. Respectfully declined.

[C]

Well, it went like this. He came in and he did a read he'd prepared. See, my rule on auditions is I'm only interested in the second take or the third take. I'm not interested in the actor's preconception of the scene. I'm interested in whether the actor will volley with me, will take an idea, no matter how crazy, and run with it to see if there will be a creative interaction. Right. So. And if actors are listening, then. And you ever wind up auditioning, be prepared to spend a half an hour to an hour and roll up your sleeves and work. Because I want to know if I can work with an actor, Meaning can they process what I'm saying and incorporate it into their art and their interpretation? Right. So I thought I was going to be there for another hour working with Matthew, and I said. And it. To me, it was a rhetorical question. I said, so, Matthew, you know, would you like to do another take? I've never heard no. Never heard no. It's like, why would you say no? I mean, give me a break. I. Look, I respect. I respect the man.

[A]

Fine.

[C]

He's. First of all, he's done great, but he's done great because he's a great actor.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Right. But he said, no, I'm good.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I was like. And. And at that point, I could have. Could have said no. I really think you should, you know, do another take, and we'll try something to see if we can work together. And I just went, okay. And that was that.

[A]

Amazing.

[C]

All right. So amazing. So if Matthew's ever wondering about why he didn't get offered the part. That's exactly why. Okay. You know, but I think, look, he's. This was. We're coming up on. Coming up on 30 years ago, maybe, right. Or 29 years ago.

[A]

And, you know, there's a lot of.

[C]

Water under the bridge for both of us since then. So it's not like there's any grudge. I just think it's a cute. It's a cute moment. And I mean, hopefully he can think of it as a cute moment, too.

[A]

Who's your best filmmaker friend?

[C]

Guillermo del Toro, for sure.

[A]

Is that true? Yeah. You paid off a ransom.

[C]

It's a bit of a coin toss between him and Catherine because we're.

[A]

You guys are still friends.

[C]

I'm best friends with Catherine. I'm best friends with Guillermo Bigelow. But we're not kind of in the same circle. Those are separate. Separate deals.

[A]

You do the model making at his house that he does with his filmmaker friends.

[C]

I have done it just to tell you.

[A]

He and J.J. abrams went to Japan, I've heard, to get special models.

[C]

They came back with, like, a truck full of model kits. I mean, there's stuff you can get in Japan you can't get anywhere else. And these guys are real aficionados, and Guillermo just loves all that gak. He likes to surround himself.

[A]

I would like a documentary about Sundays at Guillermo's house making miniature models.

[C]

There was other models. There was literally a moment in my life for an hour or so where I was sitting with Steven Spielberg and J.J. abrams and Guillermo, and we were building model kits. I was doing Creature from the Black Lagoon, which was one of my favorite.

[A]

Please say someone was filming this.

[C]

No, of course not. I shouldn't even talk about it. It's private. It's sacred trust. But it's not something I would pursue. But you got to have some chops. You got to come in knowing how to make models. You know, I used to be a model geek.

[A]

Yeah, I'm. You are. You are. I forget who told me this recently. You are the billionaire version of a Home Depot dad. Yeah.

[C]

That's good. I like that. I wish I was a billionaire, but, yeah, the Home Depot dad thing works.

[A]

Yeah, you've had. You have. You're a Home Depot dad with unlimited money.

[C]

Yeah. The billionaire thing assumes certain deals that didn't exist. One and two, that I've never spent a dime in 30 years.

[A]

Right, yeah. You don't own Terminator.

[C]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

So something we don't know about Sigourney Weaver.

[C]

I think people see all of her characters think they know who she is, and she's actually quite goofy and funny and kind of klutzy and. And, you know, she really loves comedy, but she always plays these kind of alpha dog, you know, female characters. So, you know, we've talked about this. That when I offered her Kiri to play a 15 year old, seemed like a natural decision for both of us. You know, I can do that.

[A]

You were skeptical earlier, but I'm curious. Do you think Earth has been visited by beings from other planets in the history of the planet?

[C]

We've never seen anything that can rule it out. We've never seen anything that rules it in. I think all of the evidence is bullshit. And it's all very human centric. I think that if aliens. If aliens are out there and if they come here, I don't think they care about us that much. And I.

[A]

What do you mean?

[C]

I don't think they care about us that much.

[A]

They don't care about a working civilization.

[C]

Maybe, maybe we're. Maybe we're wildlife photography for them, you know, But I also think that their. Their way of processing the world might. I think the movie Arrival gets it right, which is their whole way of processing the world. Space, time, quantum physics. Everything might be so different from ours that there's actually no common ground and we might not even recognize their artifacts.

[A]

I love that movie.

[C]

But the answer is I don't believe in anything that you can't prove to me.

[A]

Right, good.

[C]

So it's. So it's a scientific kind of empirical approach to the, to the world. Same thing with religion. To me, UFOs and religion fall into the same category. People love to believe what they love to believe. They love the story, you know, but show me the proof, right?

[A]

All right, last one. Better vegan restaurants. LA or New Zealand.

[C]

I think LA's got the edge because you've got Crossroads on Melrose, which has been, you know, there for 20, 20 some years. And it's fantastic in Vegas too, right? Yeah. So Tall, Tall. Ronan, the chef, he's expanding the franchise. Great food. There's a new one that I like on the. On the. In the marina. Planta Cochina. Very, very good. I strongly recommend it.

[A]

And New Zealand.

[C]

Okay, New Zealand. There are a couple of good ones in Wellington. I don't know, in Auckland, I think they're probably. Probably a few, but there are a couple of good ones.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Covered a lot of ground.

[A]

Thank you. This was great.

[C]

Really solved all the world's problems. I know.

[A]

We solved both the Hollywood problem and the environmental problem all in one interview.

[C]

Wow. That's amazing.

[A]

All right. Thank you very much.

[C]

Okay. All right. Thanks a lot, Matt.

[A]

All right. That's the show for today. No call sheet. I want to thank Jim Cameron, of course, Producer Greg Horlebeck, Art Jesse Lopez. And I want to thank you. We'll see you one more time after Thanksgiving with the special live recording of the Town with Chloe Zhao at my awards event for Puck. But for that, on Friday.