Part 2: Sony Film CEO on Marvel’s Decline and Hollywood’s Originality Crisis

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: Part 2: Sony Film CEO on Marvel’s Decline and Hollywood’s Originality Crisis
Host: Matthew Belloni (A)
Guests: Tom Rothman (Sony Pictures Chairman & CEO, B); Lucas Shaw (C)
Date: February 24, 2026
Podcast by: The Ringer & Puck

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Overview

This episode features a candid and wide-ranging discussion with Tom Rothman, the head of Sony’s film division, recorded live at the AFI. Rothman addresses the Spider-Man franchise's future, the current state of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the importance and dwindling influence of movie stars, the impacts of streaming on Hollywood's business models, and the existential crisis of originality in contemporary cinema. The episode delves deep into film industry economics, studio strategies, and the cultural forces shaping which movies get made and why.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Future of Spider-Man and Sony’s Marvel Partnership

• Sony’s Spider-Man Franchise:

  • “Are you going to go back to [the Spider-Verse movies] at some point? Yes, you will. But it'll be a fresh release, reboot, new people.” (00:48)
  • Rothman confirms that while the current iteration may rest, there are plans for a future reboot, indicating a cyclical franchise approach.

• Partnership with Marvel:

  • “It was an extremely smart and mature decision by Michael Linton and Amy Pascal...It’s been one of the great deals for both companies ever. A true win-win deal.” (02:19)
  • Rothman describes the Marvel deal as mutually beneficial, specifically crediting Kevin Feige and reflecting on the success of the last Spider-Man film, which grossed nearly $2B.

• Chinese Censorship and the Statue of Liberty:

  • The Chinese government requested the removal of the Statue of Liberty from the film's climax.
    • “They said, no problem, just cut out the Statue of Liberty, which is where the climax.” (03:34)
    • Rothman refused, highlighting a balancing act between international markets and creative integrity.

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Marvel’s Recent Struggles and Superhero Fatigue

• Marvel’s Decline:

  • Rothman attributes recent challenges to overexposure and lack of scarcity:
    • “Scarcity has value. You gotta make the audience miss you.” (06:01)
    • He suggests that “less will be more” going forward and praises Kevin Feige’s ability to course-correct.

• Disney’s Strategy and Critique:

  • The proliferation of interconnected TV content caused audience fatigue and a loss of accessibility:
    • “It was really the television and the elaborateness of that interconnection that made you have to be so inside, you know, or else you felt excluded.” (06:48)

• Never Bet Against Feige or Cameron:

  • Rothman’s faith in industry giants:
    • “Never bet against Jim Cameron... Never bet against Kevin Feige. He knows what he’s doing.” (06:51)

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Movie Stars: Still Relevant?

• Current State of Movie Stars:

  • “There are less of them. Seven years later, there are fewer of them, thus making the ones that there are even more valuable.” (08:24)
  • Rothman lists Timothée Chalamet, Tom Holland, Zendaya, and Sydney Sweeney among emerging stars, while Denzel Washington, Leonardo DiCaprio, Brad Pitt, and Tom Hanks still offer “quality imprimatur.”

• The Right Role Matters:

  • “Movie stars in the right thing. Not as many as we would like, but there are clearly emerging young movie stars.” (09:08)

• On Streaming’s Impact on Stardom:

  • “Categorically, streaming does not make movie stars. That just isn’t the case... Many [stars], yes [it hurts].” (10:38, 11:00)
  • Rothman recounts a star calling a streaming movie “a tax on the brand.” (11:10)

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The Crisis of Originality & Theatrical Windows

• The Real Crisis:

  • “The crisis is originality. The crisis is where is the next franchise coming from? Because original movies don’t have a built-in fan base.” (18:40)

• Cultural Urgency and High Standards:

  • Rothman calls for “cultural urgency” in movies, using Timothée Chalamet’s career as an example of generating it:
    • “He’s a fantastic cultural sales guy who understands, creates urgency, cultural urgency.” (19:05)

• Risk, Reward, and Corporate Reality:

  • Studios keep turning to IP because of shareholder pressures:
    • “I have shareholders and I have fiduciary obligations and I have 6,000 employees whose bonus...” (19:56)

• Personal Passion for Originality:

  • Emphasizes personal and industry motivations:
    • “Are you kidding me? I sit in Louis B. Mayer’s office...Every day I drive onto the lot...how lucky can one person be?” (20:40-21:30)
    • “Striving still for originality, trying to do it, and often...failing.” (22:00)

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The Economics of Windows and Collective Action

• Shorter Windows Hurt Everyone:

  • “When you compare like movie to like movie, which you have very sophisticated models that can do this, it’s the openings that are diminished.” (15:35)
  • Studios are learning that diminished exclusivity undermines box office debuts, creating habits that hurt the whole industry.

• Collective Standards Needed:

  • “To preserve originality, we need to reestablish robust windows.” (23:00)
  • Rothman proposes:
    • “45 days to transactional, 100 days to ESMA (free/subscription streaming).” (27:04)

• Exhibition and Pricing Concerns:

  • Warns against a cycle of raising ticket prices to compensate for falling admissions:
    • “If [movies] go from being a regularly affordable leisure activity to a luxury...the breadth of the business can be in trouble.” (27:37)
  • Urges: “We gotta make dope shit.” (28:20)

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On the Changing Studio Landscape (Netflix, Warner Bros., Paramount)

• Netflix’s Deal with Sony:

  • “The deal we did with Netflix was done right in the heart of...not just bidding for Warner’s.” (23:49)
  • Demonstrates that even as Netflix acquires more IP, they value Sony’s pipeline.

• Studio Consolidation:

  • Rothman is agnostic about whether Netflix or Paramount ends up with Warner Bros., but calls both “very different” reflecting on industry hyperscale:
    • “We’re fortunate at Sony to be part of, you know, $130 billion company. So we’re already firmly protected in that way.” (24:15)

• Theatrical Decline:

  • “It’s a settled question that [ticket sales] have declined and the reason they’ve raised prices. So it masks the decline a little bit.” (25:34)
  • But Rothman rejects the idea that the decline is inexorable if the industry adapts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Marvel’s movie/TV overexposure:

  • “It was really the television and the elaborateness of that interconnection that made you have to be so inside...or else you felt excluded.” (06:48, Rothman)

• On movie stars and brand:

  • “A very significant movie star...referred to his career in that and when he would do a streaming movie or not as a tax on the brand. And I think that’s true.” (11:00, Rothman)

• On the imperative of originality:

  • “The crisis is originality. The crisis is where is the next franchise coming from?” (18:40, Rothman)

• On industry-wide habits:

  • “You’re not losing them in that weekend, you’re losing them in the opening weekend...You’re creating a habit.” (15:35, Rothman)

• On the primary ingredients for box office success:

  • “When you go out and you make a movie, there are only two reasons people go to the movies. One is experiential...The second reason is story based.” (17:29, Rothman)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:48] Spider-Man franchise future and reboot plans
• [02:19] Marvel/Sony partnership deep dive
• [03:40] Chinese censorship request for Spider-Man movie
• [06:01] Marvel’s struggles and the value of scarcity
• [08:24] The evolving importance and scarcity of movie stars
• [10:38] Streaming’s impact on movie stardom
• [13:19] Windowing, collective action, and box office economics
• [18:40] The originality crisis in Hollywood
• [23:00] Rothman’s proposed industry-wide windows policy
• [25:28] Declining admissions and pricing spiral in theaters
• [27:37] The threat of movies becoming luxury leisure and the need to "make dope shit"

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Tone and Speaker Dynamics

• Rothman's tone alternates between direct, witty, nostalgic, and occasionally irreverent—often laced with personal anecdotes and industry wisdom.
• Belloni approaches with journalistic skepticism but allows Rothman space to explain and defend studio decisions.
• Shaw prompts with industry-specific context, keeping the conversation focused on contemporary industry challenges.

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Final Thoughts

Rothman’s appearance offers a compelling snapshot of a film executive balancing art, commerce, and personal passion. He remains bullish about theater-going, the durability of movie stars, and the need for originality despite the industry's risk-aversion and economic pressures. While recognizing the systemic challenges, he makes a powerful case for windowing as essential to Hollywood’s creative and financial future.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Neon. Sentimental Value isn't just the must see film this season, it's the must feel film of the year. Nominated for nine Academy Awards including best picture, Joakim Trier's story of love, family and reconciliation is being hailed by critics as an absolutely breathtaking piece of filmmaking. Starring Oscar nominees Renata Rheinsveh, Stellan Skarsgrd, Inge Abstader, Lilias and Elle Fanning, Sentimental Value is a modern masterpiece. Now playing in select theaters, This episode of the Town is presented by 20th Century Studios, Avatar, Fire and Ash. Don't miss the movie critics are raving is epic and exciting and gorgeous and heartbreaking and stands as one of the greatest films ever made. It's got incredible visuals, jaw dropping action and a cinematic achievement. Fire and Ash, now playing in theaters and now nominated for the Academy awards for best visual effects and best costume design. It is Tuesday, February 24th. Today is part two of Tom Rothbin, head of the Sony movie studio. We reported it live at AFI with me and Lucas Shaw and Tom's very cool Columbia Pictures bomber jacket that is definitely not for sale. He told me, if you haven't heard part one, go do that first. Today it's the future of the Spider man franchise, Marvel's recent struggles and if movie stars should make movies for streamers and the biggest crisis facing the movie industry right now. He's definitely got opinions from the ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. Where are we in the Spider man franchise? Not at the animated spider verse. Is the larger spider verse dead? Are you going to go back to those at some point? Yes, you will. But it'll be a fresh release, reboot, new people. Okay.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

And how is the partnership with Marvel going?

[B]

It's great because that was a big moment.

[A]

It was sort of a tail between the legs moment to have to go to Disney and say, listen, we kind of ran this into the ground. We need you to bring this back.

[B]

You know, speaking of that, putting that question that way, we have a character, it's called Mr. Negativity. You would be really good for him. You should come and audition.

[A]

Studios don't typically say, here's our number one franchise, let's bring in another studio to partner on it.

[B]

I can't take much credit for it. It was at the very beginning of my tenure and the tail of end of Amy's credit tenure. But I think it was an extremely smart and mature decision by Michael Linton and Amy Pascal, who are excellent Excellent executives, first rate. But the part that I quarrel with run into the ground. No, it's a $800 million movie. That's some ground. I think, again, this was a question of opportunity because, yes, first of all, Marvel's great. Kevin Feige's a genius, and I can talk about that in a second. But it wasn't just bringing Marvel in to produce for us. It was actually, we were able to introduce the new Spider man with Robert Downey Jr. And Iron man connected to the narrative. Connected to the narrative. So it had big upside for us. And it's been one of the great deals for both companies ever. A true win win deal to the point where the third one just did and pisses me off that I have to say this, that it did a billion nine. You say billion nine. What's the matter with two? Well, it didn't get into China. So otherwise. But in my mind, it's over 2, because I know what we would have done in China. They just small thing. They said, no problem, just cut out the Statue of Liberty, which is where the climax.

[A]

That was the request.

[B]

That was the request. And I said, yeah, well, like the

[A]

last 20 minutes of the movie.

[B]

Yeah, there was that. And also I really didn't look forward to standing up, sitting in air in front of Congress, telling him why I cut the Statue of Liberty out at the request of the Chinese Communist Party. So it's been a really, really, it's been a great partnership. And I have to say, it's because they've been great partners. I know.

[A]

Kevin, I'm gonna make a prediction that there's no. That there is no Statue of Liberty in the new Spider Man.

[B]

Let me think about that. Actually, coincidentally, that's true.

[A]

Total coincidence.

[B]

Total coincidence. You know, we're very privileged that Amy has been a producer on the Spider man movies, and she's probably the best, if not one of the best producers in the business ever. A woman I've known all my 30 plus years in Hollywood. But Kevin, I like to tell this story because the first Marvel movie, the first big successful modern Marvel movie, not the cheap German ones, was not Spider man, it was X Men. X Men came before Spider man and we made X Men and Fox. And X Men was the real initial breakthrough in the Marvel universe because it was the first time that the characters were taken seriously and it was the first time that the emotionality of those characters were honored.

[A]

We won't talk about the director of that movie.

[B]

No, we don't.

[A]

Keep going.

[B]

And there was a skinny little junior Assistant. Assistant, assistant for Lauren Donner, who was, like, sitting in the back of the room and during the story meetings. And every once in a while he'd be like, what about. And I'd go, that's a good idea. What about this kid? That's a good idea. That little person was Kevin Feige. And what I always say to him is, if I'd known you were only such a fucking big shot, I would have been so much nicer to you. But he's gifted.

[C]

I'm curious, because he had kind of a generational run. How do you diagnose the recent challenges or slight decline and how a lot of those movies have done?

[B]

I just think he would say the same thing. I would say it this way, that when we always have to balance this, we balance this. In answer to your question about Spider man, scarcity has value. You gotta make the audience miss you. It's the old thing. I always had trouble getting girls to go out with me twice. But, you know, until fortunately, my wife took pity on me. But it's like absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[A]

But it's an interesting dynamic. As you mentioned, how much of a benefit it was to Sony to introduce Spider man with Downey. I feel like the opposite is true now, where they need Spider man to introduce Avengers, and that storyline will hopefully for them carry over, I think.

[B]

Look, hopefully, I'll just tell you this. There are two people about whom I would say this, and maybe more, if I think about it, but these are two that come to the top of my mind. Never bet against Jim Cameron, okay? And never bet against Kevin. Feige knows what he's doing. You know, certainly they've engaged. You can see it. And of course, correction. Less television. I think it was really the television and the elaborateness of that interconnection that. That made you have to be so inside, you know, or else you felt excluded. And that was a mandate that he was given by a prior administration at Disney. And he's a good corporate soldier. So he. He did what he was asked to do. But I think he knows very well that now, to a degree, less will be more and it'll be very more. Have no worries for Avengers. Guys, it's going to be if. Don't you have some kind of game where you.

[A]

We do. I have it. I have the movie in the draft. It was my. It was my number one.

[B]

Bye.

[C]

It was your number two. I have Spider man, he has Avengers. Who's going to do better?

[B]

I love all my children.

[A]

Well, one of them is Actually, not your children, but Spider Man. You think so? So I had you on a roundtable in 2019 of all studio executives. It was a very good one. It's actually fascinating to look back on it today.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

I asked the question, is there any movie star that is important as strong ip and you said, yes, I think there are lots of movie stars. It's one of the great myths propagated out there that movie stars don't matter. Seven years later. Is that still true and is it less true?

[B]

Okay, no, it's more true. There are less of them. Seven years later, there are fewer of them, thus making the ones that there are even more valuable.

[A]

Okay. Care to list them?

[B]

Sure, why not? I'm here under subpoena. Right. So listen, I had a lot of good summer jobs I can go back to. I was a surveyor. I was a lawn boy. I can do all those things.

[A]

I'm going to regret asking this, but is Sydney Sweeney one of them?

[B]

I think in the right thing. So let's talk about movie stars. And it has all. It's always been this way. When Bill Murray did go through the biggest comedic star the world and then did the Razor's Edge, nobody gave a fuck. Okay? So it has to be stars in the right material. Sidney. In the right material. Absolutely. Look at anyone but you. And now housemate, housemaid. Terrific hit. That's a big hit movie. And here's the significant thing about Housemade that people don't probably pay as much attention to. And the same with anyone but you. It's a global hit. That movie's huge internationally. So I would say yes. And it's always this way. Movie stars in the right thing. Not as many as we would like, but there are clearly emerging young movie stars. Timothee Chalamet, Tom Holland, Zendaya. There's a. There are Sydney emerging young movie stars. And then there are the established, unquestionable stars who continue. And this is the key about continuing to be a movie star. You have to continue to reward your audience and continue to let your audience trust the choices you make. People don't quite understand that it's not just what they are. It's that if I'm going to the movies and I'm paying my money and I'm on dancing. I know Denzel Washington makes good choices, right? I know Leonardo DiCaprio, he makes good choices. If it's good enough for Leo to do it, it's probably going to be pretty good, right? Leonardo DiCaprio, Brad Pitt. These people don't make three, four, five movies a year. You know, it's a. There's scarcity and value. Tom Hanks, same thing. There's a quality imprimatur. And then, come on, who doesn't want to see Brad Pitt drive a car really fast? I do.

[A]

But Brad Pitt's 60 years old.

[B]

Yeah, but Clint Eastwood was a star until he was, you know, well into, well, well into his late 70s. But you raise a point. And that's why I said fewer, because going to the conversation we had before, categorically streaming does not make movie stars. That just isn't the case. Streaming doesn't make much sense.

[C]

Do you think it hurts those movie stars we were talking about if they do a streaming movie?

[B]

A no. Many. Yes. I had a meeting in my office with a very significant movie star who will go unmentioned, who referred to his career in that and when he would do a streaming movie or not as a tax on the brand tax. And I think that's true.

[A]

It was Mark Wahlberg, wasn't it?

[B]

No, it was not Kevin Hart.

[A]

I'm not going to guess. No, I actually agree with you. I think you can do it. Like Leo did a streaming movie.

[B]

Don't look up.

[A]

Still on their top 10 list.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But he did one.

[B]

Correct. You see a recurring theme here, I think, you know, scarcity, value. These are recurring themes, particularly with respect to movies. You want to go out, you're going to go and be over that bar. It should be special. It shouldn't be every day. This on a streaming service. This is every day. So I think you can do it spare.

[A]

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[C]

You talked earlier about the need for collective action on the part of the studios. And do you feel that your peers at the other studios share your belief? Or do you find yourself having to spend a bunch of time trying to convince them to think the way that

[A]

you do because you're in a different business? You don't have a streaming service.

[C]

Universal. Well, you were talking about 17 days. They do the 17 day P. Vod movies, right? Or Warner Brothers. Not this current regime, but the previous regime put a lot of movies direct to streaming and may now be owned by a streaming service. We'll find out. Disney has experimented more with Windows.

[B]

Let me correct just that last thing, but answer it. Which is to say that I can't do any of that because they're antitrust laws. So and so. No, I can't do that because there's a possibility that that wouldn't be allowed.

[A]

You have a trade organization.

[B]

Yes. And the trade organization has to represent everybody, including Netflix and Amazon are in the trade organization. Yes, but I perfectly free to answer your questions. What I think is that it's a learning process. Okay. I was given some of your interrogations to listen to before I came on because my comms people were very concerned about me and my survival on this. So they gave me a few and I heard on something on one of them. Sorry, I wasn't paying strictest attention that it was a settled question that theatrical movies do better on streaming. And I think it is a settled question. The statistics show that. And I think this is what's happened. I think it's been a learning process. Coming out of COVID I can just say for ourselves, we actually did some movies on 17 days. I actually didn't realize I had to learn because there's a misleading statistic which is if you look at the box office on the weekend, which we did look at on the weekend following the 17 days, the drop is no greater than what it is not for the 17 days. So for a number of times we thought, oh well, maybe they're different consumers. Until we realize we're looking at the wrong thing. You're not losing them in that weekend, you're losing them in the opening weekend.

[A]

Weekend.

[B]

That's what's happening. And when you compare like movie to like movie, which you have very sophisticated models that can do this, it's the openings that are diminished because of Casablanca. So, so we stopped.

[A]

So the customer can tell on opening weekend whether this is coming from stud? No, it's creating a habit.

[B]

You're creating a habit.

[A]

But they can tell the difference between a studio that does it and a studio that doesn't?

[B]

Absolutely not. That's why it hurts all of us.

[A]

It's an overall.

[B]

That's why it hurts all of us. So let me just. But I got to go back to the last thing you said. Actually Disney has the longest windows in the business.

[C]

Oh, I just said they experimented, which they did do.

[B]

They did during the Pixar thing. And Mr. Iger realized he's a very smart man and realized it. When you get under the hood, it's why I'm very confident ultimately that with what Netflix has said, should they end up owning Warner Brothers about maintaining proper windows, not just 45 days. It's why I'm, why I, I believe what they're saying at Netflix. Remember, it's not just 45 days, it's 45 days to transactional, it's 100 days to free.

[A]

And you believe Ted Sarandos when he says that that will be the model for the Warner's movies?

[B]

I do. Because they're very smart at Netflix. And when you get under the hood, they're going to pay. I don't know, what are they paying? 78, 72 billion. 83 plus 83 to pay $72 billion billion dollars for it. You want the company to work and they're smart. And when they get under the hood, they're going to learn the same things we learned, which is the value chain in motion pictures is from successive windows. So what I was going to say, Disney now has the longest, most firmest windows in the business. Right. And it's even where it's their own service. There are a hundred days to Disney. Who has the only billion dollar movies this year?

[C]

Disney.

[B]

Disney. I don't think it's a coincidence. So what I think is happening, it's an evolution. We went through a once in a generation crisis with this Covid shit. And people are learning, we're learning and we've learned that collectively. Listen, gang, when you go out and you make a movie, there are only two reasons people go to the movies. One is experiential I want to see it on the big screen. I want to see what Jim Cameron's done. Right. I want to take my kids out of the house because they're driving me crazy. I want to kiss a girl or a boy. Right. I want to have an experience when we do it well. I want to laugh with other people. I want to have an experience. The second reason is story based. It's a story based reason. I want to see that story. I want to see that star. I want to experience that emotion. If you take away the window, you take away the story based reason to see it, leaving only the experiential reason. So what does that do? What's the crisis in movies now? It's not the amount of movies. It's not the big grossing movies. Spider Man's going to do great.

[A]

It's the middle ground.

[B]

It's originality. The crisis is originality. The crisis is where is the next franchise coming from? Because original movies don't have a built in fan base. And we're getting to a place that without cultural urgency, you got to have cultural urgency to get over the bar. Why? Why is Timothee Chalamet such a movie star? Well, because a, he's great. He's a great actor. My daughter's a theater producer. Put him in his first play. There you go. Elizabeth gave you a plug. He's a great actor. He's never been anything less than great. And he's a fantastic cultural sales guy who understands, creates urgency, cultural urgency.

[C]

It doesn't seem like your fellow studios share your passion for originality.

[B]

Because my fellow studios get the, and me, we get the shit beat out of ourselves all the time when you try for originality. But you got to keep trying. And we do try, but better.

[A]

I read you greenlit a Charlie's Angels movie.

[B]

No. Are you developing development that. And there's talk about originality.

[A]

But if you look at the slate and I'm. And no, no shame. But it's, it's pre branded stuff. You'll do a Garfield movie, you'll do.

[C]

Your biggest movies of the year will probably be what, Spider Man, Jumanji.

[B]

And because I have shareholders and I have fiduciary obligations and I have 6,000 employees whose bonus.

[A]

You're basically the guy in the studio. You want to do certain movies and you want to also keep your job.

[B]

No, no, I want to be clear about that because I was widely misquoted on that. Oh, you were widely. So I get a chance to correct the record now because they took half of My quote from that, please. I said very clearly on every episode of the studio. So please use this first part of the quote. There is a brilliantly blinding truth in every episode. And there is. And then I said, but the rest of it is horseshit. And what I should have said was, the rest of it is silly because they only used the cuss word. Look, I think it's a brilliant show, and I think the satire is actually genius. But some of the most devoted people, film loving, smart people I've known in 35 years in Hollywood are studio executives. And not all of them, but most of them, are in it for the same reason I am. It might not have been Lawrence of Arabia, but I could have done lots of things. I had multiple careers before I came here, but I loved movies. I dreamed someday, and this part of the studio is true. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? I sit in Louis B. Mayer's office. Are you kidding me? Every day I drive onto the lot, and the lot was mgm. And today I visited Jumanji on the same stage, the same stage that they sought the wizard of Oz. Are you kidding me? How lucky can one person be? So. And I think a lot of the people are like me. My father claimed that he hated this job his whole life. I don't know if he really did, but he said he was miserable. He was a lawyer, and he pretended to be miserable. And he had four children. And he would look at us at the breakfast table every morning and he would say to his kids, don't do this. Don't work at something you don't love. And as I look out here at students at the afi, I'm a person whose vocation and avocation are the same. And hence, it's the old cliche. Yes, I have work days in my life, believe me, but it's great. So striving still for originality, trying to do it, and often. By the way, failing. Made a Darren Aronofsky original movie last year. I loved the movie Caught Stealing. I love Darren. I thought it was great.

[A]

You watched it on Netflix?

[B]

Yep. Because it wasn't over the bar. It wasn't culturally urgent enough. It's a really good movie. It tested well. People loved it. So what do we have to do? We have to set high standards for ourselves, but collectively, collectively, to preserve originality, we need to reestablish robust windows.

[A]

I do want to ask whether you fear at all that. That this Warner's sale, if they do go to Netflix, doesn't that make Netflix less inclined to do A big deal with a studio like Sony.

[B]

Well, luckily, the answer to that. We have facts. They have done a very big long term deal with us.

[A]

But I'm talking the next deal.

[B]

Well, I'll be dead.

[A]

It's only seven years. You won't be dead. Maybe professionally, but you will not be dead.

[B]

They've been saying that about me for a long time, Matt. They've been trying to kill me off professionally for a long time. And, and nobody succeeded yet.

[D]

So.

[A]

But, but you know, you get what I'm saying. If Netflix is hoovering up all of

[B]

the libraries, I think it's proof positive. Proof positive. I wondered about that.

[A]

Yeah, because you could have sold the library, could have done the deal with Amazon.

[B]

I absolutely. I wondered about that. We have proof positive because Net, the deal we did with Netflix was done right in the heart of. They're not just bidding for Warner's Warners, but our deal was closed subsequent to the Warner board awarding the deal to them. So they wanted it. Obviously. I think they were smart. They did a big long term global deal with us. At the same time, I'm sure they were very confident that they were going to have Warner Brothers.

[C]

Do you care between Netflix and Paramount? Do you think one of those is better or worse for the industry?

[B]

No, I don't care. I think they're very different. Let me put it that way. I think they're very different. I think that it brings us back maybe to the very first conversation. What is this moment? I think it's a product of what the current world is and the hyperscale of companies that are in our business. We're fortunate at Sony to be part of, you know, $130 billion company. So we're already firmly protected in that way. So that's great. That's great for us. Yeah, I'm like, you guys, I don't know what's going to happen. And I think, you know, it's always hard to predict the future, but I think it is representative of the moment we're at.

[C]

You used the phrase settled question about the importance of theatrical and streaming. Earlier ticket sales have gone down.

[B]

Yes, they have.

[C]

Do you think it is a settled question that attendance is in inexorable decline?

[B]

I think it. Again, I'll parse that if I may. I think it's a settled question that has declined and the reason they've raised prices. So it masks the decline a little bit. Right. And the better way to look at it, in my judgment, is admissions.

[C]

Yeah, that's what I'm. I'M talking about that, not revenue.

[B]

So let me speak to that. If say in 20, 19 billion one, I think domestic now in the high seven hundreds. Right. So there is a definite decline, no question about that. Is it inexorable? I don't believe so. That returns to what I've said before. Will it ever get all the way back up? Maybe. Let me tell you, this particular year, big year, is going to be great and in some ways in that regard, illusory. Right? This is going to be an incredibly great year. It's going to be a great year for us. It's going to be a great year for the business. It's going to look rosy. I will still stick with what I said. We don't fix the windows. That's going to be illusory. Fix the windows. Fix the windows. Listen, as this has happened in France, this has happened.

[A]

Podcasting up.

[B]

Yeah, I'm pointing up. Sorry, podcast this. I'm used to live with all you folks.

[A]

Why is that?

[C]

Is because they have a tight windows.

[B]

They have government enforced windows.

[A]

Okay, so you are elected the mayor of Hollywood. What is the edict that comes down from Mayor Rothman on windows that the entire industry must adhere to?

[B]

45 days to transactional, 100 days to ESMA. But let me answer the other part of your question because I think we haven't talked about exhibition and they have a part to play in this, a big part, which is to avoid your word of inexorable. The part of what concerns me about exhibition is a pricing spiral because admissions have gone down. They raise prices. The more they raise prices, the more admissions go down. Right. And a threat to the movie business is movies have always been counter inflationary, always. If they go from being a regularly affordable leisure activity to a luxury leisure activity, the overall breadth of the business can be in trouble. So I think exhibition, and I'm not saying anything I haven't said to the leaders of all of them, they've got to be really careful with respect to the pricing, the quality of experience and not going down that, that vicious circle. But no, I don't think it's inexorable. And then there's one other thing which is fair enough and maybe the most important thing of all, we got to make dope shit.

[A]

All right, thank you to Tom. We will open it up. We are back with the call sheet. Craig, do you consider the Deuxmoi website and Instagram page to be a legitimate news source?

[D]

I consider it an entertaining news source and I often send you DMs and say, Is this real?

[A]

Yes, you do. And I want to slap you in the face when you do. Because the answer is almost invariably, no, it is not true.

[D]

Sometimes. Sometimes they are.

[A]

Okay, sometimes. But I feel like when it comes to casting news, the fact that the entire Internet goes nuts when Dumois posts that some actor has been chosen for some role, it's insane. It's insane. It happened last week again with the James Bond stuff with Jacob Elordi.

[D]

I know. It does feel like an easy way to quickly gain 10,000 followers. I should just start tweeting my predictions for who's going to be James Bond and I could probably double my following in a week.

[A]

It's insane. So just so people know, there has been no actor cast as James Bond. There has been no script delivered yet. Steven Knight is still working on the script. They will not choose a James Bond likely until the spring or summer, I am told. So we do not have a James Bond yet. And honestly, like, my prediction is, it's probably not going to be Jacob Elordi. Like the guy's too famous at this point. He's 6 foot 6, like 6 foot 5, 6 foot 6. Would you believe a spy that sticks out in every room that he's in? I just feel like there's no discovery in that. They're going to pick someone, in my opinion, that is good actor up and coming in the 27 to 32 ish range because they want to start over with a younger Bond. It's more likely going to be someone like a Callum Turner than it is a Jacob Elordi.

[D]

Lordy, very tall. He would stick out in a casino in Monte Carlo for sure.

[A]

And no, no respect. He's a good actor. Looks good in a tuxedo. But I just.

[D]

Absolutely.

[A]

He's also not British. He's Australian.

[D]

He's Australian. Daniel Craig was 38 in the first bond. Pierce Brosnan was 42. Daniel Craig was not as nearly as much of a household name as Jacob Elordi is now, who is very famous. He has an Oscar nomination this year. He's in a massive TV show and that's not the way Bond usually goes. Also, Callum Turner, a little older. He's 36 years old.

[A]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe he's too old. I know they want to go young. They want. And they also want someone to sign a pretty onerous deal with Amazon where they would get him for a TV spin off. They would get him for, you know, multiple movies. And like, is Jacob Elordi going to sign on to that? Like I don't know.

[D]

He's already dealing with having signed on to Euphoria and having to go back and he's not going to do the same thing with Bond.

[A]

I know they're all milking it, but whatever. I just. It's so funny. This is the one casting. It's like Bond and Batman where people just go nuts over it.

[D]

Batman and Bond is the two coolest, most prestigious roles you can book in Hollywood still.

[A]

Although these days you can do Batman and still do other stuff. I guess Craig did other stuff too, so, you know, he's pro. He's going to make. Certainly going to make more money off the Knives out movies than he did off the Bond movies. Like his deal for Knives out is insane.

[D]

But also, if you book Callum Turner, you're basically guaranteeing Dua Lipa. Guarantee is a doing the Bond song.

[B]

Oh, good point. For sure.

[A]

Not that they need. I mean, they can get people to do a Bond song, but she would be great.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, she could be a Bond girl. Maybe that would be too weird. But she, she will be involved in some way.

[A]

Yes. Okay, we're not going to make any other predictions on that. So.

[D]

So, so your prediction is just. It will not be Jacob alone.

[A]

I don't believe it will be Jacob.

[D]

Okay, watch. That'll be big news.

[A]

Maybe tomorrow just to. Just because Amazon wants to piss me off.

[D]

Well, now Dumois can report that Jacob Elordi is out as James Bond, according

[A]

to the Town podcast. Yes, this is a prediction. I am not saying I have inside information. All I know is that nobody has been cast yet. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest Tom Rothman and Lucas Shaw, producer Craig Horbeck, artist Jesse Lopez and Jon Jones. And I want to thank you. We'll see you one more time this week.

[E]

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