Running a Major Talent Agency in 2025 With the New CEO of UTA

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni Episode: Running a Major Talent Agency in 2025 With the New CEO of UTA
Release Date: June 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Town with Matthew Belloni, host Matt Belloni delves into the evolving landscape of Hollywood talent agencies by engaging in an insightful conversation with David Kramer, the newly appointed CEO of United Talent Agency (UTA). Released on June 11, 2025, the episode explores the significant changes and challenges facing major talent agencies in 2025, emphasizing UTA's strategic direction under Kramer's leadership.

Transition of Leadership at UTA

Matt Belloni (Host):
"It's an interesting time to run a Hollywood talent agency with issues like the content recession, transition from TV to streaming, labor unrest, and AI impacting the industry. Today, we're here with David Kramer, the new CEO of UTA, to discuss these dynamics."

David Kramer:
“This is day number six, Matt.” [04:07]

Kramer begins by addressing his recent appointment, highlighting the smooth transition process and the ongoing support from both clients and colleagues. He emphasizes that his ascent to the CEO position was part of a long-term succession plan, ensuring stability during this leadership change.

Notable Quote:
"Luckily for me, six days in, I've had no fires to put out." [04:17]

Diversification of Talent Agencies

Kramer outlines the significant transformation within UTA, shifting from a traditional focus on film and television packaging to a diversified portfolio encompassing various entertainment sectors.

David Kramer:
"When I started here, there were about 18 agents, and now we sit at about 2200 people with offices all over the world." [06:11]

He explains how UTA has expanded into areas such as sports, brand advisory, comedy touring, publishing, and digital content like podcasting. This diversification is presented as a strategic move to adapt to the changing entertainment landscape and to mitigate risks associated with the decline of traditional packaging models.

Notable Quote:
"The agency business, I think it's the most exciting time in the history of the agency business to be in it." [06:26]

Impact of Private Equity

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on UTA's relationship with private equity firms and how these partnerships have influenced the agency's growth and stability.

David Kramer:
"We were very thoughtful and deliberate about who we partnered with because, of course, like you, we heard a lot of different stories about private equity and what it would do to our business. That has not been our experience." [21:05]

Kramer details UTA's positive experiences with private equity partners, citing EQT as supportive without exerting undue pressure on the agency’s operations. He highlights the financial backing and industry expertise that these partnerships provide, enabling UTA to pursue diverse business ventures without compromising their core values and client relationships.

Notable Quote:
"They've been really great partners to us. But the one thing they haven't asked to do is run the business." [22:19]

Navigating the AI Revolution

The conversation shifts to the burgeoning role of artificial intelligence in the entertainment industry and its implications for talent agencies.

Matt Belloni:
"How is UTA prepping for the AI revolution? I was just reading this AI 2027 report and like, it's pretty scary what's coming." [17:50]

David Kramer:
"We have an obligation to protect our clients, protect their likeness, protect their work, protect their intellectual property. And that's not just our call, but we are partnering with a lot of tech companies and spending time with them to figure out where we can be playing a role, what we should be doing." [18:10]

Kramer acknowledges the dual nature of AI advancements, emphasizing both the opportunities for increased efficiencies and the threats to creative ownership and job security. UTA is actively engaging with technology partners to establish safeguards and advocate for industry-wide standards to protect their clients' interests.

Notable Quote:
"It is still the wild, wild west for sure in the AI world. And I think that the entire industry has to start to not just get used to the fact that it's here, but figure out what as an industry we want to do to protect our industry." [19:10]

Compensation Models with Streaming Services

Another critical topic discussed is the shifting compensation models from traditional upfront payments to backend deals tied to performance metrics controlled by streaming platforms.

Matt Belloni:
"What’s going on with how the big streamers are treating talent on payments? Are you guys open to backend models that will pay your clients less upfront in exchange for potentially more money based on data that is entirely in their control?" [23:33]

David Kramer:
"We have been pushing them to try to have more, more of a backend success-driven model." [24:07]

Kramer expresses UTA's openness to backend deals, provided there is transparency and fair alignment of success metrics. He underscores the importance of equitable participation from both the agency and the clients in revenue-sharing arrangements, aiming to foster mutually beneficial partnerships with streaming giants.

Notable Quote:
"The clients are hungry for that. They want to put risk back in. They want to see their work treated in a different way and be compensated in a different way." [25:20]

Future of the Talent Agency Landscape

Looking ahead, Kramer provides his perspectives on the potential consolidation within the talent agency industry and the sustainability of the current "big three" model (CAA, WME, and UTA).

Matt Belloni:
"What does the agency landscape look like in five years? Do we see more consolidation? Does CAA buy you? Do you see the chance of a fourth or fifth big agency emerging?" [26:12]

David Kramer:
"I think five years from now, you will still be looking at CAA and WME and UTA, and there will be the opportunity for some smaller agencies to grow, but it takes tremendous capital, tremendous time, and you got to be able to gather all the people to grow a big, huge agency." [26:33]

Kramer anticipates that while the big three will likely maintain their dominance, there remains room for ambitious smaller agencies to emerge through consolidation or innovative business models. He encourages entrepreneurial efforts within the industry, reflecting UTA's own journey from a small mailroom to a global powerhouse.

Notable Quote:
"When I got into the business, there were about seven [agencies]. But five years from now, there will probably still be the big three." [26:43]

Conclusion

Matt Belloni wraps up the episode by highlighting the critical insights shared by David Kramer, emphasizing the resilience and adaptability required to navigate the modern entertainment industry's complexities. The conversation underscores UTA's strategic diversification, proactive approach to technological disruptions, and commitment to fostering equitable partnerships within the evolving market dynamics.

Final Notable Quote:
"We are constantly evolving and in motion. If you represent great artists and do what they do, you can thrive even amidst significant industry changes." [15:29]

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This episode offers a comprehensive examination of the current state and future trajectory of major talent agencies through the lens of UTA's leadership. For industry professionals and enthusiasts alike, Belloni's interview with Kramer provides valuable perspectives on managing a talent agency in an era marked by technological innovation and shifting market forces.

Transcript

[Zach Lowe]

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe Show. That's right, I'm back to have the same in depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games, the X's and O's, the drama. The playoffs are coming up and now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen. Listen to your podcast.

[David Kramer]

Let's go.

[Zach Lowe]

This episode of the Town is brought to you by MAX presenting Hacks for your Emmy consideration. Starring Gene Smart and Hannah Einbinder, the new season picks up with Deborah Vance's late night show finally in production and Ava Daniels stepping in as head writer. To Deborah's dismay, their ever complicated relationship is pushed to new limits as they clash over creative direction and get entangled in blackmail and betrayal. Don't miss the series Slate says has never been better. Emmy eligible for Outstanding Comedy Series and all other categories now streaming on max.

[David Kramer]

Now you can watch the best of Hulu on Disney. Like season two of nine, Perfect Strangers with Hulu on Disney and Star Wars.

[Zach Lowe]

Andor Season 2 on Disney.

[David Kramer]

All of these and more now streaming with Hulu on Disney with a bundle subscription available with bundle plans starting at $10.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit disneyplus.com hulu for details.

[Zach Lowe]

It is Wednesday, June 11th. It's quite an interesting time to run a Hollywood talent agency. So many of the issues we talk about on the town the content recession, the painful transition from TV to streaming, the labor unrest AI all those challenges are trickling down to the agencies, which are still the unofficial gatekeepers for thousands and thousands of talented people in entertainment. The agencies used to literally package TV shows and take big fees. Now the Writers Guild says they can't do that. Generally speaking, when we talk about the agencies, there are three shops that negotiate on behalf of the lion's share of the major actors, directors, writers, touring artists, authors, broadcasters, influencers and even podcasters. Then there's a bunch of smaller agencies and management companies that represent the rest, with exceptions. And at those three Creative Arts Agency, William Morris Endeavor and United Talent Agency, there's been a ton of disruption and change over the past several years. CAA's majority stake was bought by the Arnault family, which makes it part of the huge lvmh. Fashion and luxury conglomerate WME was combined With a ton of random businesses like the UFC and professional bull riders taken public as Endeavor Group. Then recently, they were taken private again, with their longtime leaders leaving. And uta, which has a major private equity stakeholder in eqt, the private equity firm they've beefed up in recent years by acquiring the Curtis Brown agency in the UK, Rich Paul Sports Agency, Klutch, Michael Kasson's MediaLink consultancy. That one didn't go so well. They sued each other. Although settling UTA had their own big transition earlier this year. The home of everyone from Timothee Chalamet to Seth Rogen to Cynthia Erivo and thousands more. They replaced their longtime CEO, Jeremy Zimmer with David Kramer. Kramer's an interesting guy. He started at UTA in the mailroom more than 30 years ago. He's been a board member and president. He reps filmmakers like Jay Roach and Alex Gibney. He's a pretty low key and likable guy as far as agents go, and he's ascending at a key time. UTA had lost a couple clients recently and CA&WME would prefer to see the top tier talent race as having two horses, not three. David obviously has a different perspective on that and he has a bunch of stats to back it up. Just officially started this week and he hasn't yet talked publicly at any media outlets. So I invited him on the town to discuss it all. The talent landscape, his plans for uta, the private equity invasion, all of it. Today. It's what it's like to run a major talent agency in 2025. From the Ringer and puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. All right, we are here with David Kramer, CEO of United Talent Agency, the new title CEO. You've been in the job, what, a week?

[David Kramer]

This is day number six, Matt.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, so what fires have you had to put out in your first six days running a talent agency?

[David Kramer]

Luckily for me, six days in, I've had no fires to put out.

[Zach Lowe]

No, really? Is that true? That can't be true. No one's threatened to leave? No one. I mean, I imagine in a transition period like this, other agencies try to use it to sow chaos, steal clients, everything.

[David Kramer]

Well, first of all, let me start by saying thanks for having me on.

[Zach Lowe]

Let's start with, let's say who's poaching from you right now.

[David Kramer]

Thank you. So let's start with the easy stuff. No, you know what? I have my six day honeymoon period. I'm sure it's over as of right now. But look, this, this succession Plan has been in. In process for a long time. So the process for us has been really smooth. People here have been really supportive. The clients have been supportive, and luckily the town has been supportive. And so I've really appreciated a nice, smooth transition.

[Zach Lowe]

Which studio sent the biggest flowers or wine basket? Be honest. Be honest.

[David Kramer]

I don't remember. Off the top of my head, I'm.

[Zach Lowe]

Gonna say it's probably Warner Brothers because.

[David Kramer]

They were very kind.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, they probably want you to think that they love you. All right, so let's get into the conversation here because I wanted to have you on because it is a pretty interesting time in the talent agency business. When you started at this company in the mailroom, could you have ever imagined that, like, running this agency would mean managing private equity investors and a sports business and music and the influencers, podcasters. Jesus Christ. Podcasters. Like, give us the snapshot of the talent agency business now compared to when you were coming up.

[David Kramer]

Well, to answer your first part of the question, the answer is no. When I started here, There were about 18 agents, and now we sit at about 2200 people. And with offices all over the world.

[Zach Lowe]

No one's doing cocaine in the hallways anymore. Definitely not that you know of.

[David Kramer]

So look, the agency business, I think it's the most exciting time in the history of the agency business to be in it.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay, but why do you say that is so. I mean, packaging is gone. Packaging was the revenue driver for these talent agencies for decades. You don't even know what the future of the entertainment business is. Warner Discovery is splitting up. Their merger was a failure. You've got Netflix running away with it all. The model on streaming is a no backend model for the most part. Like, there's so many challenges in this business. What makes it exciting?

[David Kramer]

Well, what makes it exciting is that what these agencies do today is, first of all, film and television has been the driver of these businesses. You are right. And there was a time where it was all about film and television and packages, and that is just absolutely not the case anymore. You're looking at a big agency like ours where we've diversified into so many different businesses. When I started, we did three things at this company. We now do 53 things. We have offices all over the place. We are in sports, we are in brand advisory, we are in creative, we are in comedy touring, we are in speakers, we're in publishing. And what our clients want now is not just film and television, which, by the way, still is a major motor of this agency. Couldn't be more critical to our growth. But also what we're seeing is all of a sudden we've created a platform where clients are crossing over into all these other areas, some of which we didn't have 10 or 15 years ago, and some of which did not exist, meaning podcasting or the digital side of the business.

[Zach Lowe]

Okay. But you guys don't have quite the star power of like a CAA or even a wme. You have stars. You got Chalamet, you've got Seth Rogen, you've got stars. But when you look at the roster of the other two big agencies, they would tell you, and I'm just putting words and they're putting words in my mouth, I guess for this they would say it's a two horse race, that there are two big agencies now, uta. And the sign of that is that there was a leadership shakeup and you are in there now because you need to essentially not rebuild, but refocus and make that agency, I don't want to say great again, but make it great again so that it is a three horse town. How do you respond to that when people say that the other two big agencies have kind of run away with it and that UTA is playing catch up?

[David Kramer]

Well, I just simply don't agree with that. I think so.

[Zach Lowe]

Give me examples. Don't give me the talking points, give me examples.

[David Kramer]

You name an area. We represent some of the biggest stars in the world, like you said, whether it's Timothee Chalamet, whether it's Chris Pratt, whether it's Oscar winner Mikey Madison, Will Ferrell.

[Zach Lowe]

Well, I think the answer is, is in part the, the business has diversified. It's not just about stars.

[David Kramer]

And I was going to get there. So that's the movie star part and the film and television part, which, by the way, we have a significant. In movies and television. We can go through the laundry list of amazing shows. We're involved.

[Zach Lowe]

You had some Tony winners last night.

[David Kramer]

I think we, we did. We had both Sarah Snook and Cole Escola. We had more Tony nominations than we've ever had. We had more Oscar nominations we ever had. Every year we have more Emmy and Golden Globe nominations than we've ever had. We're involved with shows like from White Lotus to Succession to.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, Mike White. Yeah, that's a good one.

[David Kramer]

And the crown. And by the way, your vehicle, the studio.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, stop, please. My vehicle.

[David Kramer]

I was so glad. I'm so glad they got you in two episodes and not just one. And, and, and, and hacked it on and on and on and Then you go into the other areas, bar none. I know we have the dominant player in the creator space. One of the biggest growth areas of the agency business right now, now is the creator space. We started it 19 years ago and I'll tell you, Matt, people were perplexed.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, I know. I remember when UTA had that. Brent Weinstein was doing it, although he's now at caa. But yeah, there was a. I remember when you guys were the first movers on that.

[David Kramer]

We were the first movers on that. And we were. We started it about a year after YouTube started. And we are the market leader there. We are the market leader in comedy, the comedy touring business. When you look at what's happening and the explosion around comedians, whether that's Nate Bragazzi or Sebastian Maniscalco or Nikki Glaser, Matt Rife, Bert Kreischer, on and on and on, we are the market leader there. We're the first agency to move into the UK with the acquisition of what I think is the most pristine brand in the uk, the Curtis Brown Group. That allowed us to have an authentic place in a very important market. Also, 25, 30% of their business is publishing. We had started a publishing initiative.

[Zach Lowe]

All right, so that's what you have. Where do you need to grow when you're looking at your business? Where do you need to shore up and grow to compete?

[David Kramer]

We want to continue to focus on the areas that are less mature because we have a real right to win there. And whether that's creators, whether that's comedy, whether that's our brand advisory business, that's very important to us also as brands want to get closer to everything that we touch and all the people we represent. Also being in the sports space, in that sort of under the tent of sports, when we, I think we have the most exciting sports platform under Rich Paul.

[Zach Lowe]

Is that working? There's skepticism as to whether that's working, what the long term play there is, because Obviously he reps LeBron. LeBron is coming to the end of his career. Is that, Is that a good long play for you guys?

[David Kramer]

That is an absolutely good long play and it's working really well.

[Zach Lowe]

Why? Why? I mean, so when we got into.

[David Kramer]

Business with rich Paul about six years ago, seven years ago, he had about six people. Our sports business counts now more than 200 people. We were just in the NBA, we've moved into the WNBA, we've moved into NFL, we've moved into baseball. And we acquired a company in Germany last year called Roof European Football Company. We also Were in the property sales business. Now, with respect, you know, having to deal with naming rights, patch deals, sponsorship. We just had the NFL draft. We had 23 players picked in the draft, five in the top first round. I mean, our sports business is a huge. Not just investment for us, but a growth area. And it's working really, really well.

[Zach Lowe]

But still room to grow there. CA&W me have big businesses there.

[David Kramer]

I think there's a lot of room to grow there. And we're looking at all the different ways, both of domestic and abroad, to do that. But if you look at the past six years and what's going on with that business and what it's providing to us, I couldn't be happier with that acquisition.

[Zach Lowe]

But post strikes, man, the content recession has hurt the agencies. No.

[David Kramer]

At times, yes. We went through the WGA t a thing. We went through a pandemic. We went through streaming wars, we went through strikes. We went through the streaming wars starting to subside quite a bit. So we're always in motion. We're always evolving. But I've been doing this a long time, and I remember when it was just gonna be network television, then it was gonna be cable television, then it was gonna be overall deals here, and then it was gonna be overall deals are. Are dead. We are constantly evolving and in motion. And I do believe that if you represent great artists and you do what they do, and whether it's some of the names I mentioned on the motion picture side or the TV side, I mean, Wes Anderson's been able to do what he does for 30 years. The Coen brothers. And then you have Lord Miller and you have Noah Bombeck and Greta Gerwig and John Shoe. I mean, these are people exploding in their crafts.

[Zach Lowe]

It's just tough, man. These are assets. These packages were assets that these agencies owned. And they could build their businesses elsewhere. They could attract private equity because the packages were there forever. And sometimes agents got paid out on them even if they left. But the packages were there, and now it's a fee for service game. And the talent goes home at night, and the agents go home at night and could be picked off at any time. It just feels like the challenges in the traditional side of the agency business are so much greater than they were both in the packaging age and pre strikes.

[David Kramer]

Yeah, I think that the focus on packaging, you're right, that was a great opportunity for the agencies for many, many years. Packaging on the scripted business is. Is gone. But there are so many more opportunities and ways to grow your business beyond that. And when you look at the businesses that we touch and the opportunities that are created because of the different people we represent, the different brands we represent, I couldn't be more bullish on it. And yes, the pie chart is going to look a lot different than it did 15 years ago when 95% of our business was film and television. So the pie chart is changing. And so that's why you've seen a company like ours diversify the way we have one, because it was smart, good business, and we saw areas where we had a right to win because of what we did. And yes, some of it was to insulate from the whims of the business. And whether that was consolidation, whether that was pandemic, whether that was strike, whether that was end of packaging, you got to be prepared for all those things. We are better prepared for those kinds of changes today than ever before because of what we've built out.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you think the writers would ever reconsider the packaging rule? I mean, it's sort of moot these days because 99% of shows are not on the broadcast syndication model where, you know, the few examples were that the agency ended up making more money than the writer did. It's just that's kind of not the business anymore. And now they're all paying 10% to their agents when they used to not.

[David Kramer]

It is interesting because I know you.

[Zach Lowe]

Have a perspective on that.

[David Kramer]

Yeah, of course. But the other thing that was happening as we went through the WGA T A issue was technology had changed the way we all did business. The streamers were here and the models and the possibility for big back ends and syndication was starting to dissipate. At the same time, what we've also seen, we haven't really talked about, is for actors who used to stay in the movie lane or the TV lane. Obviously, those walls have completely come down. So you're seeing some of the biggest actors in the business go back and forth. The financials for the agencies and for the clients is showing itself in other. In other ways that didn't exist 10 years ago. On the television side, the Walking Dead Dead City returns exclusively on AMC and AMC.

[Zach Lowe]

Plus, why do you want to bring back Manhattan? I hear this island's got no laws.

[David Kramer]

New rules, new enemies. New York show's about to start. You don't know what they're doing to.

[Zach Lowe]

Naked Amy Meanie, Mighty Mo the Walking.

[David Kramer]

Dead Dead City Sundays exclusively on AMC.

[Zach Lowe]

And AMC plus this episode is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting the diplomat from writer and creator Deborah Kahn, Keri Russell and Rufus Sewell return, with Allison Janney joining in the explosive second season as US Ambassador Kate Wyler navigates high stakes diplomacy and a fraught marriage in search of the truth. The Guardian lauds the Diplomat a masterclass in storytelling, and Indiewire hails it one of the best shows of the year for your Emmy consideration. How is UTA prepping for the AI revolution? I was just reading this AI 2027 report and like, it's pretty scary what's coming.

[David Kramer]

Yeah, look, I think, you know, the headline is with all new technology, there.

[Zach Lowe]

Are always pros and cons and lots of cons here. It's funny though, now you guys are in the same shoes as the guild. Like whatever the guilds negotiate here, credits for writers maintaining jobs and getting paid for actors, like, you guys are kind of free riding on that.

[David Kramer]

Well, we have a whole group of people digging into AI and wearing and be positive because I think there are parts of it that can be positive and, and our clients feel that way too. And certainly in terms of lots of different kinds of efficiencies. But we also have an obligation to protect our clients, protect their likeness, protect their work, protect their intellectual property. And that's not just our our call, but we are partnering with a lot of tech companies and spending time with them to figure out where we can be playing a role, what we should be doing. It is still the wild, wild west for sure in the AI world. And I think that the entire industry has to start to not just get used to the fact that it's here, but figure out what as an industry wanted we want to do to protect our industry. It's not just about protecting your business or this writer or that visual effects house. It's the entire industry because we know that AI, where it is right now is in its infancy and we have an obligation to protect our business the best we can.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you think that's even possible though, some industry wide protectionist initiative? I just don't know if that's possible. Like, even amongst the agencies, they all seem to be doing their own thing with wme, having talks and I know you guys do chat about this as a group, but they're all trying to kind of distinguish themselves on what they're doing for their clients to protect their name, image, likeness, their writing, all of that stuff individually.

[David Kramer]

Yeah, look, I think it's too early to tell to have the perfect answer on that. Historically, you would see that there was definitely fragmentation in terms of how we solve problems here in Hollywood. Although I will say again, I think AI is going to bring a lot of cost down on the production side. Hopefully that gives people, companies the ability to make more movies and television, take more creative chances. That's the part that.

[Zach Lowe]

To where the talent becomes the focus of the cost. Not building sets or flying to Morocco and all these other things.

[David Kramer]

Because that's exactly right. Because so much now they go to the talent to help defray the cost. And I think that's unfair to the talent given what they bring. So there's that part of it. But I do think that. That whether it's the government, whether it's our industry, whether it's the agencies, the artists, it's going to. It's going to be a team effort on this one to protect from what AI could do in certain ways to certain people and certain businesses.

[Zach Lowe]

Do you think private equity has been good for the agency business? All three of you guys, the big ones and now even the smaller ones like Gersh and IAG and all the. Pretty much everyone has a big private equity investor, and it's fueled a lot of growth, but it's also put a lot of pressure on these companies. You know, the consolidation that we've seen where ICM went away, it's kind of harder for talent to even get an agent at one of the big three these days. Like, has it been overall a good thing or a bad thing for the talent community?

[David Kramer]

Well, I can speak to our experience around private equity. We were very thoughtful and deliberate about who we partnered with because, of course, like you, we heard a lot of different stories about private equity and what it would do to our business. That has not been our experience. We've had two private equity partners. The first one came in back in 18. They, by the way, they lived through the WGA ATA dispute, and they lived through a pandemic. But within four years, they exited the business. They tripled their money. They were happy. They were great partners. Then we brought in eqt and in less than a year, they were dealing with a double strike. Once again, they've been wildly supportive. They don't think they can run our business. We haven't felt the kind of pressure that you speak of and that we hear about all the time. Of course, they're there to help us with some financial firepower, with an industry expertise, both really with the vast group of industries they've invested in and work with. They've been really great partners to us. But the one thing they haven't asked to do is run the business. They've let us do that. And They've given us the ability to get not just financial power for the diversification I've talked about, but also to create liquidity for not just the partners who work at uta, but every single person who's worked at uta.

[Zach Lowe]

You guys did write a check to every employee when you got financing, which I thought was very cool.

[David Kramer]

Thank you. We did it. We did it both times. We did it with both the ivc, PSP side of it and we did it with the EQT side of it. And lastly, I'll say psp, who came in with ibc, that's the Canadian pension fund they're in still. So they enjoyed their experience the first go round, so they stayed in. So they're about to hit their seven year mark with us.

[Zach Lowe]

How many of them asked for tickets to the Oscars?

[David Kramer]

None of them have asked for.

[Zach Lowe]

Or Dune 2, the Dune 2 premiere.

[David Kramer]

They want to go to?

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I imagine it's a lot of hand holding when they come to la. What's going on with how the big streamers are treating talent on payments? I keep hearing that Netflix is trying to get people to do more of the back end. They have this definition. They have used it with Ben Affleck and Matt Damon's company. Amazon wants to get people into backend deals that pay them a little less upfront. Where are we with that and are you guys open to backend models that will pay your clients less upfront from the streamers in exchange for potentially more money down the line based on data that is entirely in their control?

[David Kramer]

Well, that's the tricky part, right? If you were to say, hey, would people take less and have more upside all day long? That is, by the way, how we built our clients business. And our business was by taking chances and by being aligned when you make something at the right price and it succeeds. And we have a million examples of people who have done that. The tricky part is when it comes to transparency and what are the metrics of success. And every company looks at it, at it differently, but that is something we've been pushing them to have, to try to have more, more of a backend success driven model.

[Zach Lowe]

But is that happening? I mean, where do we stand now?

[David Kramer]

We're starting to see some of it. We're starting to see some of it. And it's in the early days, but my hope is that's where we end up.

[Zach Lowe]

They want it. They want it. They want to get away from overpaying, quote unquote, everybody up front. They want this model to work, but they Want it to work on their terms where they can ultimately pay less money overall. And obviously the big agencies don't want that.

[David Kramer]

Right. Well, there's the question of overpaying. If you overpay someone and then you have some massive juggernaut success that turns into four, five, six seasons or the most watched, so who gets to decide whether they overpaid? But I will say that we're fine for them not to make it all about the front end as long as the back end participation is truly aligned with success and a reasonable level of success. If 10 billion people have to watch it, that doesn't feel quite right. If it has a cultural impact, if it's just so creatively amazing, or if you have more viewers than on most of your, you know, garden variety stuff.

[Zach Lowe]

They need a win above, win above replacement metric.

[David Kramer]

And I'll tell you, it's not just them and it's not just us. The clients are hungry for that. There were a lot of clients who got into the streamer business like, oh, you're taking some risk off the table. And now what you're seeing is they want to put risk back in. They want to put risk back in. They want to. They want to see their, their work treated in a different way and be compensated in a different way. Maybe not like the old days of TV packaging, but back into a place where if I do a great job, they're going to do well and we're going to do well.

[Zach Lowe]

The home runs come back because currently there's no home runs. There's singles, doubles, triples. If you're big, you can get a big overall deal. But the home runs, you know, the Chuck Lorre deals, those are not happening.

[David Kramer]

You're right. The home run deals now look more in the shape of an overall deal as a thank you for a great show or something like that. It's not actually as tied to the show or to the movie the way. The way it used to be.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah. All right, so last question. What does the agency landscape look like in five years? Do we see more consolidation? Does CAA buy you? Does the chance of a fourth or fifth big agency emerge? Like. Or is. Are we in grade now? This is an oligopoly.

[David Kramer]

Things are changing all the time. When I got into the business, there were about seven.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. But come on, you see where this is going? Where is this going? I don't think the government's going to let CA buy WME or uta. So where does this go?

[David Kramer]

One, we're not for sale so that's good.

[Zach Lowe]

You're. Oh, you above anyone else should know everything's for sale.

[David Kramer]

So. But secondly, what I would say is, I think five years from now, you will still be looking at CAA and WME and uta, and there will be the opportunity for some smaller agencies to grow, but it takes tremendous capital, tremendous time, and you got to be able to gather all the people to grow a big, huge agency. The last big agency that started was 30 years ago, so I'm not saying it's not possible, but I think five years from now there will. There will probably, yes, they'll be the big three. With some of the other agencies here, we might see some consolidation among some of those agencies.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I think some are going to fall away. I mean, the. The end of pilot season. Some of these smaller agencies lived on pilot season because they'd get a million clients into pilots that would never go and they'd make their money, and that was it. Now it's just they're scrambling, and if there's. If this contraction holds, you're going to see a lot of the smaller agencies try to buy each other or merge or go away. I mean, we're already seeing it. Verve is out there right now. Some of the others are out there trying to find partners.

[David Kramer]

Yeah, yeah. And Gerstuck and Private Equity, and there's Paradigm, there's ig. You're right. There's. There's a lot of opportunity for those. For those companies. And you know what? I encourage people to try their own thing. You know, this company started 34 years ago with a couple of people, and it's turned into what it's turned into. It's an exciting thing to build something.

[Zach Lowe]

Maybe they'll be AI agents. Here's the existential question. Will an AI agent call you back as a client? How long will it take longer for your AI agent to call you back than your real agent?

[David Kramer]

I'm sure you've talked to a few agents you call AI.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Ron Meyer used to call back everybody the day they called. That's what made him great. Now it doesn't happen. All right, thank you very much, David Kramer. Appreciate it. Good luck with the new job.

[David Kramer]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Zach Lowe]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, does the how to Train youn Dragon franchise mean much to you?

[Matt Bellany]

I saw it. I liked it. I don't think I've seen any of the other ones, and this new one actually pisses me off, to be honest.

[Zach Lowe]

Oh, it does.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, it does.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I actually. I've only seen the second one, which I saw dressed in a tuxedo at the Cannes film festival in 2014.

[David Kramer]

Wow.

[Zach Lowe]

Yes. Which did not make the experience that much better. I can't remember what the standing ovation was and the length of it at.

[Matt Bellany]

The end, but, man, this movie, specifically, this feels like more of a shot by shot regurgitation than any live action remake before.

[Zach Lowe]

It's.

[Matt Bellany]

It's the same director. Gerard Butler is actually in it. He was the voice in the animated movies. The director of this movie has said that many scenes are shot for shot. It even looks almost animated at times. When you look at the trailer, I mean, it looks like the exact same movie.

[Zach Lowe]

It's funny, like, my kid said that. He's like. I asked him if he wants to see it and he's like, oh, no, I've already seen that. I was like, yeah, but this is like live action. He said, no, no, it looks the same. I've already seen that.

[Matt Bellany]

Well, when the entire movie is based around an already animated dragon.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, but you know what? That was the same with Stitch. Lilo and Stitch. It was based on a already animated alien, and they CGI'd that one and it worked.

[Matt Bellany]

Yeah, but how to Treat yout dragon was like 3D modern animation, not the 2D stitch version from 20 years ago.

[Zach Lowe]

I know. I just think this is in the category of animated movie. That does translate to live action, because people like to see those creatures in the real world. And that's gonna work this time. The tracking is about 70, 75 for the weekend, which would be by far the biggest opening for a How to Train youn dragon movie. Number three in 2019 opened to 55 million. Uh, the others were in the 40s. So I'm. I'm actually. I'm gonna take the over on this one. I think all those people who saw the trailer before Lilo and Stitch are gonna show up for this, and I think it's gonna overperform. Let's put the line at 72 between 70 and 75. And I'm gonna take the over.

[Matt Bellany]

Whatever.

[Zach Lowe]

You could be upset. It's also gonna do well overseas. It's tracking like over 100 overseas, so this could be a big weekend.

[Matt Bellany]

This feels like an advertisement for the new how to Train youn Dragon ride.

[Zach Lowe]

At Universal, which it is. I mean, they have teed this up to open the new land and the movie. And they've already announced they're going to do a How to Train youn Dragon Live Action 2. So they're just going to remake the three movies with live action and it will serve as nice promotion for the ride and the land at the theme park. Everyone's happy.

[Matt Bellany]

Everyone's happy.

[Zach Lowe]

The flywheel is working. Universal can do the flywheel just like Disney does. They can exploit their library just like Disney does. And you know what? More power to them.

[Matt Bellany]

Great. Disney's are not really like shot for shot remakes. They're at least trying to bring in a director to like do something with it. Even if they don't work. This one is just pretty much going to be the same movie, but whatever.

[Zach Lowe]

Yeah, I mean, the criticism of some of those Disney movies is that they are almost the same. But you know, listen, Disney used to put their movies before vhs, before dvd, before streaming. The whole Disney model was that they would put their movies back in theaters every seven years because there was a new generation of kids. And this new generation of kids, parents would need something to do with them so they would take them to the movies every seven years. That kind of went away with DVDs. But this is the modern version of that. All the parents who grew up going to see these kinds of movies are like, oh, I know what that is. My kid would probably like that. Let's go.

[Matt Bellany]

I get it. I think the fear though, the real modern version of this is because this is basically a shot by shot remake and you can kind of just bring somebody in to make the same movie. You want to talk about what AI can just take care of, man? Let's just make a live action remake of any movie. Just slot an AI to do it.

[Zach Lowe]

They should all be babies. Actually, they should be baby AI versions of the characters in the movie. That would be great.

[Matt Bellany]

Maybe Boss Baby Live action is coming next.

[Zach Lowe]

Have them all be Boss baby. There you go. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, David Kramer, producer Craig Horleback, art editor Jesse Lopez and I want to thank you. We'll see you one more time. This week the Town is supported by FX's the Bear. In season three of the Emmy winning series, Carmi pushes himself harder than ever and demands excellence from his crew as they do their best to match his intensity. The Los Angeles Times calls this season as magnificent as television gets. Starring Emmy winners Jeremy Allen White, Ayo Adeburi, Eben Moss Bachrach and Liza Colon Zayas. Awards eligible in all comedy categories. All episodes of the Bear are streaming on Hulu.