Sony Film CEO on Losing ‘Sinners’ and the Endless Big Tech Battle

Summary

The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: Sony Film CEO on Losing ‘Sinners’ and the Endless Big Tech Battle
Date: February 23, 2026
Guest: Tom Rothman, Chairman and CEO of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group
Co-host/Contributor: Lucas Shaw

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Episode Overview

This episode, recorded live with film students at the AFI Conservatory, features a candid conversation between host Matt Belloni and Sony Pictures Chairman & CEO, Tom Rothman. The discussion zeroes in on Sony’s unique position in Hollywood—succeeding as a standalone movie studio without its own general interest streaming service—while navigating big tech’s infiltration into entertainment. Rothman shares insights on the ever-evolving industry landscape, the critical importance of theatrical releases and exclusive “windows,” Sony’s creative strategies in a world dominated by IP, and the high-profile loss of Ryan Coogler’s ‘Sinners’ and Christopher Nolan’s ‘Oppenheimer’. The episode is packed with reflections on film history, corporate strategy, and personal philosophies about making “dope shit” that matters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Context and Major Shifts in Hollywood (04:29–07:46)

• Rothman’s office at Columbia: Emphasizes the importance of legacy and the century-spanning history of studios like Columbia, something tech companies can’t buy.
  • Notable quote: “The studios, the historic studios, which are now seem to be called the Legacy Studios, have that all the Apple money in the world cannot buy. And that’s history.” (Tom Rothman, 03:32)
• Hollywood’s five climactic moments:
  1. Invention of sound
  2. End of the studio system
  3. Invention and proliferation of television
  4. Analog-to-digital transition
  5. The entry of hyperscale tech companies (e.g., Apple, Amazon, Netflix), creating a fundamentally new competitive environment
  • Quote: “Now we’re in the fifth...the entry of truly hyperscale technology companies into our business at a level of capitalization beyond anything that could ever been conceived.” (Rothman, 06:54)

2. The Big Tech/Legacy Studio Divide & The “Windows” Debate (07:46–14:08)

• Why tech companies are different: For trillion-dollar tech companies, making movies is not about profit—it’s a diversification.
  • Quote: “They actually don’t have to make profit. It’s such a small portion of what their balance sheets are.” (Rothman, 07:50)
• Opportunities for Sony in a Tech-Dominated World: Rothman insists studios like Sony still have unique creative and marketing abilities.
  • Quote: “In the immortal words of Beyonce…‘Make dope shit.’” (Rothman, 09:08)
• Theater ‘windows’ and exclusivity:
  • Rothman argues the industry’s biggest error post-COVID was undermining theatrical exclusivity (the “window”).
  • The collapse of the window has conditioned audiences not to prioritize the theater.
  • Rich context on how “windowing” has always evolved with TV, VHS, DVD, pay TV, and now streaming.
  • Quote: “If enough movies come out in 17 days, they know. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. And they’re not idiots.” (Rothman, 13:24)

3. Streaming Partnerships and the Value of Theatrical Releases (15:55–18:43)

• Sony’s relationship with Netflix:
  • Sony is Netflix’s biggest supplier of films, and the streamer’s pay-one window is hugely lucrative.
  • Quote: “Our product is so valuable to Netflix, because you know about it. If we’ve made it good enough, you’re going to care about it.” (Rothman, 16:04)
• Streaming vs. Theater Exposure: Rothman challenges the idea that streaming and theatrical releases are creatively equal:
  • Notable audience poll for AFI students: No one dreams of their life’s work going straight-to-streaming.
  • Quote: “How many of you...the movie you care about...want to put that movie out in movie theaters with that lady in front of it? It ain’t equal.” (16:37)

4. Case Study: K-Pop Demon Hunters – Streaming Success (17:05–19:51)

• K-Pop Demon Hunters: Most-watched Sony release of the year, but crucially found its audience slowly on Netflix.
  • Rothman explains why the film’s “word of mouth” model and repeat viewing worked on streaming and not as a theatrical “parachute business.”
  • Quote: “Repeat viewing is free. Repeat viewing in movie theaters is not free.” (Rothman, 18:25)
• Sony’s animation division:
  • After K-Pop Demon Hunters, Sony Pictures Animation is now the “hottest animation shop in town,” attracting new talent.
  • The Netflix deal was a win for both parties, and Rothman stresses that their job is to “deliver them hits.” (19:31)

5. High-Profile Project Losses & Studio Strategy (19:51–24:25)

• Losing Ryan Coogler’s ‘Sinners’: Rothman doesn’t regret passing on ‘Sinners’ over copyright terms, but openly admits sadness at not landing the project.
  • Quote: “You can never ruin your business for one movie.” (Rothman, 21:29)
  • The studio’s library is the true asset backing the business.
  • Special case exception for Tarantino’s unique retention of copyright, which was “grandfathered in.”
• Chasing top filmmakers: Rothman confirms he’s still gunning for collaborations with Christopher Nolan and Ryan Coogler, among others. He considers repeat collaborations with auteurs a sign of a healthy studio.

6. The “Filmmaker’s Executive” & Repeat Relationships (23:18–24:25)

• Emphasis on repeat creative partnerships:
  • Deep pride in being a “filmmaker’s executive,” citing ongoing collaborations with Danny Boyle and Sam Mendes.
  • Quote: “The mark of a good executive and a strong company is do you do repeat business?” (24:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On legacy:
  “That’s a great thing. One of the great lucky things about the incredible fortune and good luck that I have with the job that I have. But it’s the thing that the studios, the historic studios… have that all the Apple money in the world cannot buy. And that’s history.” (Rothman, 03:32)

• On the role of studios in the streaming era:
  “Algorithms don’t market. We do.” (Rothman, 16:04)

• On what distinguishes Sony from the tech giants:
  “Make dope shit.” (Rothman quoting Beyonce, 09:08)

• On creative dreams:
  “The movie you care about, that you’ve been thinking about making since you were ever a kid—want to put that movie out in movie theaters with that lady in front of it? It ain’t equal.” (Rothman, 16:37)

• On loss and legacy:
  “You can never ruin your business for one movie.” (Rothman, 21:29)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:32 | Rothman on Columbia Pictures’ history and “what money cannot buy”
• 06:54 | The “fifth climacteric” — Big Tech entering Hollywood
• 09:08 | “Make dope shit” — Rothman’s creative mantra
• 12:14 | Rothman on the “windows” problem post-COVID
• 16:04 | “Algorithms don’t market. We do.”
• 17:05 | K-Pop Demon Hunters as word-of-mouth streaming success
• 19:51 | Sony’s relationship with Netflix and the animation talent boom
• 20:02 | On passing on ‘Sinners’ and not caving to unique copyright terms
• 23:18 | Rothman on the importance of working repeatedly with great filmmakers
• 24:11 | “Mark of a good executive...do you do repeat business?”

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Tone and Style

The conversation is lively, candid, and packed with both history lessons and current-day, unscripted industry insight. Rothman is simultaneously proud of Sony’s legacy and bluntly realistic about industry economics and the necessity of adapting to a tech-dominated environment. The dynamic with Belloni and Lucas Shaw is sharp; there’s friendly sparring, a teacher’s presence and advice for young filmmakers, and plainspoken, memorable soundbites.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

• The episode lights up the tension between Hollywood’s legacy and Big Tech’s relentless scale-chasing.
• Rothman pulls few punches: he admits regrets, owns tough decisions, and repeatedly defends the idea that making undeniably great films for theaters is still what makes studios like Sony indispensable—even as streaming partners.
• Listeners get rare, real-time insights about Sony’s internal strategy, project selection, and executive philosophy, making this must-listen content for anyone curious about how old-school studios survive and thrive in streaming Hollywood.

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Stay tuned for Part 2 with Tom Rothman, to be released tomorrow.

Transcript

[Matt Belloni]

This episode is brought to you by Neon. Sentimental Value isn't just the must see film this season. It's the must feel film of the year. Nominated for nine Academy Awards including best Picture, Joakim Trier's story of love, family and reconciliation is being hailed by critics as an absolutely breathtaking piece of filmmaking. Starring Oscar nominees Renata Rheinsveh, Stellan Skarsgrd, Inge Abstader, Lilias and Elle Fanning, Sentimental Value is a modern masterpiece. Now playing in select theaters, This episode of the Town is presented by 20th Century Studios. Avatar, Fire and Ash. Don't miss the movie critics are raving is epic and exciting and gorgeous and heartbreaking and stands as one of the greatest films ever made. It's got incredible visuals, jaw dropping action and a cinematic achievement. Fire and Ash now playing in theaters and now nominated for the Academy Awards for best visual effects and best costume design. It is Monday, February 23rd. It's shaping up to be a nice rebound year for the Sony Pictures movie studio after 2025 with only one movie that grossed more than $100 million worldwide. This year they've got a new Spider Man, Jumanji, a Resident Evil with Zach Kreger directing. And last weekend they successfully opened Goat, an original animated movie. Sony's at the center of a bunch of industry trends we talk about a lot on this show. Remember that the only major studio that does not own its own general interest streaming platform. That might seem like a big weakness in modern Hollywood. In some ways it is. But it's turned Sony into an attractive partner for the big streamers. They sell a lot of shows to the streamers and Netflix just re upped its pay one deal. That's the first pay TV window for Sony's movies that went for more than $7 billion worldwide. And of course, Sony produced K Pop Demon Hunters, which is now the biggest movie ever on Netflix. Running the film studio for more than a decade now is Tom Rothman. He's got a rich history as a top executive in Hollywood. He was at Fox for 20 years. He founded the Fox Searchlight specialty unit and he ran the big Fox studio. And since 2015, he's been the chairman and CEO of Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, where he's made and released movies like the Spider man and Spider Verse franchises. Once upon a time in Hollywood. Anyone but you and it ends with us. Yes, he lived through that one. Sony doesn't have as much IP in its stable as rivals like Disney or Warner Brothers, so it has to be a little bit more creative they're developing a Labubu movie, but they're also betting on more originality. Rothman says we wanted to get him on the show for a while. He's always got strong opinions and he's definitely willing to fight me, which I appreciate. So I'm happy to say he joined us last week at the AFI Conservatory for a live show in front of a crowd of students. First of our little film school tour we're doing. Lucas Shaw was there as well. We, we talked the Windows issue, the Netflix, Warner's ramifications, K Pop the movie star question a lot more. This is a two parter second part we'll post tomorrow. But today it's Tom Rothman and how he's making Sony Pictures a lot more than just Spider man from the ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. Let's bring him out. Tom Rothman wearing a very cool Columbia Pictures bomber jacket, available for purchase in the Columbia Pictures store. No.

[Tom Rothman]

Nope, not vintage.

[Matt Belloni]

Oh, really? You can't buy that.

[Tom Rothman]

I don't think so. Unless you're haunting ebay or somewhere.

[Matt Belloni]

Maybe I just came up with a side.

[Lucas Shaw]

I don't know what vintage it is.

[Tom Rothman]

At my age, I don't discuss such things.

[Matt Belloni]

You can tell by which of the Columbia Pictures women is in the.

[Tom Rothman]

Well, that's a great thing. If ever you've. One of the cool things I'm sure you've seen, you both have seen when you come to the lot. The commissary on the building opposite the commissary is a series of the lady with the lamp from the beginning, each iteration. And it's really cool. Last year we celebrated our 100th anniversary of Columbia Pictures. And that's a great thing. One of the great lucky things about the incredible fortune and good luck that I have with the. The job that I have. But it's the thing that the studios, the historic studios, which are now seem to be called the Legacy Studios, have that all the Apple money in the world cannot buy. And that's history.

[Matt Belloni]

Yes. It cost them, what is it, $7 billion to rent your library, Netflix for a few years? Well, something like that. Okay.

[Tom Rothman]

It's. It's valuable.

[Matt Belloni]

Yes.

[Tom Rothman]

So.

[Matt Belloni]

So I want to start. I'll take the first question. I want to start by talking about this particular moment, where we are, where we have one of the historic studios, won't use the word legacy, is now being fought over by two companies, Netflix and Paramount. I'm not going to ask you who you think is going to win. Everyone asked me that. I don't really know.

[Tom Rothman]

Me either.

[Matt Belloni]

But I do want to ask you about the implications of that sale because things are going to change, right?

[Tom Rothman]

Yeah. I think this is a major moment not just because of that, but because what it's symptomatic of this, I would say is the. Is the fifth, as Churchill would say, climactic in the. In the more than a hundred years of the movie business. And 120 plus, 230 plus years, if you. If you think of it over the course of the history of the movie business. The first, obviously, being the invention of sound. The second, the end of the studio system. And I always. I have the complete privilege and honor. I sit in Louis V. Mayer's office because where Columbia occupies it was mgm. And I often.

[Matt Belloni]

How is his desk compared to the Warner's?

[Tom Rothman]

I don't know. I've actually never seen Jack Warner's desk. But I know how.

[Lucas Shaw]

How have you never seen Jack Warner's desk?

[Matt Belloni]

I mean, David Zaslav will show it to you for free. He showed it to me.

[Tom Rothman]

If I go over there, I didn't get it. But if you come see me, I can show you Louie's. Uncle Louie's office. One of the two most famous offices. And in those days, I think you know what they say about the brilliant Irving Thalberg. Louie's office is in the Thalberg Building. Right. Irving Thalberg was so brilliant that by my age he'd already been dead for 40 years. That everybody worked for him. How hard was it? Everybody worked for him. And if you didn't want to do what Uncle Louie wanted you to do you had to come into the office that I now occupy.

[Matt Belloni]

And because they owned all the stars there was no freedom to move between studios.

[Tom Rothman]

Correct. So when that ended very abruptly when Jimmy Stewart came home from the war and had been shot out by the Nazis he didn't give an F what Uncle Louie wanted him to do. He wanted to do what he wanted to do. So the breakdown of the studio system. Then I would say the third climactorate invention of television and all of the home entertainment that followed which we'll talk about, I assume, today. And that was a similar crisis moment for the movie business. And I ran Fox for a number of years and the myth was that it was Cleopatra that almost bankrupted Fox. It wasn't actually. Cleopatra was a hit, believe it or not. It was television. The fourth, obviously, the transition from analog to digital. And now we're in the fifth. Right now, as we sit here Today, and I would say that is the entry of truly hyperscale technology companies into our business at a level of capitalization beyond anything that could ever been conceived. These are trillion dollar companies that have decided, for whatever reasons, to come in to our business. And concomitant with that is what I would refer to as the crisis in Windows. And those two things are related because the two trillion dollar technology companies, the issues of profitability in the movie business is secondary to them, I think for

[Matt Belloni]

the first time, because they're scaled, they don't have to play by Hollywood's rules.

[Tom Rothman]

Correct. And they actually don't have to make profit. It's such a small portion of what their balance sheets are. And that is very different. Believe it or not, I remain optimistic that if Hollywood writ large, so the entire ecosystem recognizes both the threat and the opportunity, there's a vibrant future. If, and I use this not in the royal sense, I use it in a literal sense, if we respond in the right way.

[Lucas Shaw]

When you say opportunity, what opportunity are you talking about?

[Tom Rothman]

Look, I'm a movie guy, right? So I can speak separately about movies themselves, which I continue to believe in, if we do the right things. But I think we are at a very decisive moment. But with respect to all these bright young. Look at them all. So bright, young and optimistic out here. I'm not going to disillusion all these young folks. Go out and get them. Whatever the traditional economics that I grew up under, people will always want to be entertained.

[Matt Belloni]

But to believe there's opportunity for a company like yours, you have to believe there are things that you, Sony Pictures, can do that a hyperscaled company cannot do.

[Tom Rothman]

And I, and I believe that thoroughly.

[Matt Belloni]

And what is that besides owning beloved ip? What is it that you can do that Apple, Amazon and Netflix and YouTube cannot do?

[Tom Rothman]

I can answer that. In the immortal words of Beyonce, when somebody asked her, how do you get to be Beyonce? You know what she said? Make dope shit.

[Matt Belloni]

So that's as simple as it is.

[Tom Rothman]

Well, yeah. It just ain't easy to do.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, but you're gonna say that. I'd imagine that on a percentage basis, your hit rate is better than those other companies. Those other companies have made dope shit occasionally.

[Tom Rothman]

Look, since the history of art, since Da Vinci fell off his ladder, two things have always been inconsistent, quantity and quality. You kind of got to pick, right? More and more for the theatrical business, the theatrical bar has gotten higher and higher and higher. Right? You've got to be over the theatrical bar because. And I would like to Talk about why that bar has gotten higher. Because I think it's part of the, the larger challenges we face because talk

[Matt Belloni]

about it, why is that bar higher?

[Lucas Shaw]

But is that bar really a quality bar? I mean, if you go and look, if you go and look at the 10 highest grossing movies each year, you're telling me that those movies are there because they're some of the best movies

[Tom Rothman]

released for the audience. They are. So don't be a snob. We're in the audience business. Okay?

[Matt Belloni]

But they're the best movies that are pre branded for the audience.

[Tom Rothman]

Some. There's no pre brand on sinners, you know, it's just great. And there was no pre brand. You mentioned something in your intro. There was no pre brand on anyone but you. Hardly. It was just really good and really satisfying and the audience loved it and they told their friends. But the reason the bar has gotten higher is because of the mistake that again collectively the business and we bear our own share of the responsibility for this. I don't shirk it has made with respect to windows. Windows are a very ill understood aspect of our business right now. What happened was collectively movies went through a near death experience in Covid. We're an out of home entertainment business and nobody could leave their homes. So that put tremendous amount of pressure on the people like us who make movies and on exhibition, who exhibit movies when they were literally closed. It was like literally if you go, you're gonna die. The movie's gotta be really good for that. Let's face it, you know, I really wanna see it. Enough to die. Well, maybe I'll let you know. So then we came back out of that and there were, in my judgment, incorrect assumptions made about what the larger ecosystem needed and what was best for the larger ecosystem.

[Matt Belloni]

Meaning the length of the windows.

[Tom Rothman]

Yes, the length. But understanding the windows, when people talk about there are multiple windows, the length of the window to what is also

[Matt Belloni]

the thing to transactional where you buy it.

[Tom Rothman]

Transactional where you buy it.

[Matt Belloni]

Pvod where you're paying money to watch it. Correct. Your tv, you don't own it, but you're renting it.

[Craig]

Correct.

[Matt Belloni]

To subscription to free to all of it.

[Tom Rothman]

Correct. Throughout all of the history of the movie business, from that moment I mentioned in television, entertainment in the home first is seen as a terrible threat to the movie business and then becomes a great boon to the movie business. It has happened every time and I have lived personally through many of those transitions. That's what happened with television and syndication. That's what happened when video cassettes at home. Oh my goodness. You can push it in your thing. Who's going to go to the movie theater? Everybody. And then they buy it again at home if it's good. HBO Home box office was a boon to us. And guess What? Same thing. 500 channels streaming is a great boon to us. Netflix is a fantastic partner for us. We make a great, great deal of money on our pay one window. The key to all of this is to protect the exclusivity, protect an exclusivity period for movies in movie theaters. It's simple. Gang. Who's seen Casablanca here in this audience? Good, because if you haven't, you're all expelled. So he says at the end, says Rick. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. We've made the audience think that they don't have to go to the movie for a story based reason. We've made them think that they can see it at home. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. They don't know. They don't distinguish between people putting it out in 17 days. But if enough movies come out in 17 days, they know. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. And they're not idiots.

[Matt Belloni]

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[Tom Rothman]

No.

[Matt Belloni]

That's the difference.

[Tom Rothman]

No.

[Matt Belloni]

HBO. When HBO at the height, HBO was not making $100 million movies. Netflix is my turn. Yes.

[Tom Rothman]

Okay. No. Because algorithms don't market. We do. That's why our product is so valuable to Netflix, because you know about it. If we've made it good enough, you're going to care about it. That's number one. And number two, how many here are in the directing program or the writing program? Okay. How many of you in the directing program and the writing program, Your real ambition is to have the movie that you care the most about, that you've dreamed of your whole life, to go out on streaming. How many of you, the movie you care about, that you've been thinking about making since you were ever a kid. Want to put that movie out in movie theaters with that lady in front of it?

[Matt Belloni]

I ain't equal.

[Tom Rothman]

It ain't equal. In fact, I feel bad that we beat the hell out of him every day.

[Lucas Shaw]

Okay, two questions off of that. What was your most watched movie released last year?

[Tom Rothman]

Oh, well, this is a trick question. He knows the answer, but we all know the answer. Our most watched movie was K Pop

[Lucas Shaw]

Demon Hunters, which was released on Netflix with the lack of marketing that you described.

[Tom Rothman]

Yep. And it took about a month for that movie to catch on. And that's why that movie was placed in the very right place for it. The motion picture business that I'm in. You guys will hear this phrase as you go out in the world and you have some of your first studio meetings. It's the parachute business, meaning you open or you die. So that's the way it works, unfortunately. But it's worked that way for a long time, really, in the post Jaws era. The advantage with Netflix, and we are extremely happy with K Pop. We're very proud of it. Goes to what you were saying before, the quality of animation, but do you

[Matt Belloni]

think it would have opened? Do you think K Pop would open?

[Tom Rothman]

I don't.

[Matt Belloni]

You don't? No.

[Tom Rothman]

I think the evidence is pretty clear that it's a classic classic. The other thing that you get, it didn't open on Netflix did. Okay. But nobody was jumping up and down for weeks and weeks. What the great advantage there is and why it's in the right place, especially for that particular thing. That was a word of mouth. The repeat viewing is free. Repeat viewing in movie theaters is not free. And the word of mouth phenomenon that. That became over a number of weeks. When you look at the Netflix chart, it goes gradually like this and then up and up. I think that was a perfect match.

[Matt Belloni]

So you do that deal again. I mean, obviously there was a lot of other things. You did a slate deal during COVID to get a lot of Sony movies onto Netflix. One of them was K Poppy.

[Tom Rothman]

Trust me, in my job, hindsight is 2020 and I regret a lot of decisions. Not that one. That's been great. It's been great for the brand. There are also tremendous number of intangible benefits that have come to that which are really rich. We are now, I'm very proud to say this is a credit to Michelle Grady at imageworks and Christine Belson and Damian at at Spa. We're the hottest animation shop in town. And if you're a young cool animator who wants to break ground and do new stuff and don't want to do the same old, same old stuff, you're beating down SPA's Sony Pictures animations doors. So that's great. And we're attached forever to it. So we're very happy and we're happy. Here's the other thing. I'll just say about that. That was done as part of the direct to platform, part of our deal. Our job is to deliver them hits. That's what we're supposed to do. And I think they're very happy because they've renewed a very nice deal for us.

[Matt Belloni]

Speaking of decisions you may regret, what about sinners you were in on? Sinners would not do the unique deal that gives Ryan Coogler the copyright after 25 years. Do you regret that one?

[Tom Rothman]

I don't regret it. I'm sad that we couldn't have it. We actually offered more money for it than it went for. I thought it was fabulous. And I think Ryan is, you know, an exceptionally fabulous director. In fact, I have a story about him, which is that I was on the jury at Sundance when Fruitvale Station was at Sundance. And I went in the jury room and we closed the door in the jury room and I said, okay, gang, we can do this in five minutes or we can stay here all night. I'm not leaving till we say Fruitvale Station.

[Matt Belloni]

Who was the dissenter?

[Tom Rothman]

I can't even remember. There wasn't a lot of Disney. The truth of the matter was, if you know your stuff, you knew it when you saw it. So I had the honor to hand Ryan his jury prize at Sundance. He came up, the same humble, somewhat shy gentleman that he is now. And I handed him the prize. I said, congratulations, this is the first, it is not going to be the last. And this year that prophecy will come true. So. And I thought Sinners, I thought the script was great. However, when you do my job, and this is one of the hard things in the job, you can never ruin your business for one movie. And I respected his desire to, you know, have a return on the copyright. I respected, you know, the decision that other companies would. Would make to be willing to fully finance and just rent a. A movie and not own it for the long term in their library. But I didn't think that we could institutionalize that at Sony Columbia, because every day on my walk to the commissary, I walked by a large poster of Lawrence of Arabia, the movie, by the way, that led me to be in the movie business because I'm just a Jewish kid from Baltimore. How the hell did I get here? Partly because of that. And I stop. I think about that. I thought about it hard in this thing that what would Columbia be without Lawrence of Arabia now and all the other valuable titles in our library? Movie studios don't really. The profitability that underlies it goes to what we talked about before history. What makes us different. The profitability that underlines a. A movie studio is its library. That's the enduring value. And I felt in that circumstance that that was one bridge too far that we couldn't compromise. But do I wish we had it? Absolutely.

[Matt Belloni]

Even even though you did it for Tarantino?

[Tom Rothman]

No, that was grandfather. So there. That wasn't our decision. That came from the fact that Django versus Zorro, which was a split with Miramax, that already existed. And in fact, that's kind of even what made it harder. Because given that if we had done it for that, we would have institutionalized it as a part of its business. What could I say to Steven Spielberg or any of the people I'm dealing with now, Sam Mendez, you know, we deal with.

[Matt Belloni]

Have others asked for it since.

[Tom Rothman]

Not sinners, not for me, because I think they know the answer.

[Lucas Shaw]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think you've done a movie with Ryan.

[Tom Rothman]

No, no.

[Matt Belloni]

Where.

[Lucas Shaw]

Yeah, where is he on the list of filmmakers you haven't worked with that you'd most want to work with like, what's your top three?

[Tom Rothman]

Well, I guess I'm going to, you know, betray my advanced years. I pretty much worked with almost everybody, which has been a great privilege. But I would say the whales I'm still chasing would probably be the same as everybody else. I've not had the privilege to work with Chris Nolan, and I would always hope to.

[Matt Belloni]

Did you bid aggressively on Oppenheimer?

[Tom Rothman]

I did. I bid very aggressively on Oppenheimer and Ryan. And I'm sure there are some, some others that I'm not thinking of right now. But I've one of the things that I pride myself on that I pride myself to be a filmmakers executive and that we support filmmakers. And I have had the privilege to work with many of the people that I grew up admiring. And what I'm mostly proud of is of those folks. I've made multiple movies with them. I'm on my eighth movie right now with Danny Boyle. I'm on my third movie with Sam Mendes. I'm just thinking the people who I'm working with right now, and I think the mark of a good executive and a strong company is do you do repeat business?

[Matt Belloni]

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, did you wake up at five in the morning to watch the men's Olympic hockey match against Canada yesterday?

[Craig]

No, and I regret it.

[Matt Belloni]

I saw those pictures of people, like, lining up outside of bars in Santa Monica at 5am I was like, oh, I wonder if Craig's there.

[Craig]

Perhaps, you know, those are the moments that you remember. And I didn't do it. I get up early. I'll go to a bar to watch March Madness. I don't know why I didn't for. I mean, 5am is a little early.

[Matt Belloni]

That is, you can't even sell beer in California until 6am but the bars were open at 5. I watched about an hour of it. I watched the last hour, hour and a half. I did not wake up at 5, but I did wake up at about 6:30, 30 to watch. Pretty amazing. And the ratings for this Olympics in Milano, Cortina have been pretty darn good for NBC. They said they were. As of a couple days ago, they were averaging 23.9 million viewers. That's through Wednesday of last week. And that is the highest number Since Sochi in 2014. Pretty incredible.

[Craig]

Why do you think that is?

[Matt Belloni]

A few reasons. First of all, the time difference between the east coast of the US And Italy is only six hours, which is much better than it was in Beijing for the most recent Olympics. And I believe the One before that as well. And then, you know, the USA is just doing well. Like the fact that Americans are winning and they, you know, the Alyssa Liu won. I guess the men's didn't do as well in figure skating, but. And the big things, there's a lot of American winners, which usually helps. And then our old friend, the Nielsen big data is helping as well, where every sporting event seems to have higher ratings than last year. I guess the super bowl didn't. But the big data, new Nielsen tracker is adding some viewers, I'm sure.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's probably right. And then honestly, the hockey. I mean, winning our first gold in hockey and having this kind of rivalry now between us and Canada definitely helped a lot.

[Matt Belloni]

I know. Amazing shots. The guy with the no teeth, that Jack Hughes guy, like, got his teeth knocked out and scored the winning goal, like hero.

[Craig]

And don't forget Cash Patel.

[Matt Belloni]

Patel, the FBI director, somehow made it into the locker room to chug some beers.

[Tom Rothman]

Yeah, good for him.

[Craig]

There's nothing going on right now. Might as well party.

[Matt Belloni]

No, nothing for the FBI head to do these days. Maybe he was looking for the Jeffrey Epstein files. The missing files were in the locker room of the U.S. men's. In the lawn.

[Craig]

Yeah, you never know.

[Matt Belloni]

So my prediction is that this is going to be the trend for the weekend. It's going to get better. And that the final Olympics number will be above 25 million, which would be a huge win for NBC. Don't forget, they pool together all the different networks. So it's NBC, it's cnbc, which is now owned by Versant. It's usa, it's Peacock. All those numbers are pooled together and they do a weird thing where they, like, roll in some of the afternoon viewing, too. So it's not like 25 million people are glued to NBC on a given night, but when you put it all together, it will, I think, get above 25.

[Craig]

In the last two to four years, NBC has really figured out how to stream the Olympics and how to communicate.

[Matt Belloni]

It's much better. And the production's amazing. Mike Tirico is great. Like, the drone cameras are amazing. Like bobsledding via drone camera. Can't beat it.

[Craig]

The Gold zone thing is really awesome. You kind of bounce around and you can see all the important moments. They do a really good job. The only issue now is that you basically have to stay off social media because you find out who wins. And because of the time difference, every time I hop on, like, Twitter or something, I find out who won something. That's not going to air until hours later, which is.

[Matt Belloni]

Well, it does air. It's just you're not watching it live, you're watching it in prime time. But honestly, I don't care. The production during primetime is really fun. They tell you a lot about the athletes. Snoop Dogg pops up. So I don't care. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Tom Rothman, producer Greg Horback, artists Jesse Lopez and Jon Jones. And I want to thank you. Part two is tomorrow of Tom Rothman.

[Tom Rothman]

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[Matt Belloni]

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[Tom Rothman]

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[Matt Belloni]

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[Lucas Shaw]

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[Tom Rothman]

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