Podcast Summary: "Sora 2, AI Actors, and How Hollywood Can Fight Back"
Podcast: The Town with Matthew Belloni
Host: Matt Belloni
Guest: Duncan Crabtree-Ireland (National Executive Director, SAG-AFTRA)
Date: October 2, 2025
Producer: The Ringer
Overview
In this episode, Matt Belloni speaks with SAG-AFTRA’s Duncan Crabtree-Ireland about the latest version of OpenAI’s Sora—an advanced AI video tool that can generate lifelike video clips using familiar copyrighted characters and even the likeness and voice of real actors. They discuss the urgent legal and practical challenges these advances pose to Hollywood, specifically around likeness rights, copyright infringement, and the uneasy opt-in/opt-out systems. They also address industry reactions, the inadequacies in current law, and how Hollywood can proactively respond.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Sora 2 Update and What It Can Do
Timestamps: 00:31–06:54
- Sora 2, OpenAI’s video tool, now combines realistic character video with convincing voices, allowing users to generate scenes with intellectual property (IP) like Wednesday Addams and Peter Griffin.
- Matt played with the app, noting its stunning realism and ease of use, as well as how it was possible to recreate major copyrighted characters and celebrities' likenesses and voices.
- “The ease that I was able to make my own mini versions of shows that Hollywood studios have put millions of dollars into creating and protecting was pretty stunning.” – Matt Belloni [00:35]
- The opt-out system for IP (but opt-in for likenesses) means exclusion from the AI model is burdensome for rightsholders.
2. Legal Gray Areas: Training vs. Output
Timestamps: 06:54–09:11
- Courts are starting to distinguish between the legality of using material to "train" AI (more permissible) versus the content AIs output (where infringement likely occurs).
- Duncan emphasizes the gaps: “There is and should be real concern about the possibility that copyright law is not going to do much to clamp down on the training side. And so, you know, the output side is an area where we've certainly been really focused, and I think all of us need to pay attention to it also..." [08:16]
3. The Need for New Rights: The ‘No FAKES Act’
Timestamps: 09:11–10:55
- SAG-AFTRA is pushing Congress for the No FAKES Act, which would create a new federal IP right for individuals’ voice, likeness, and image—going beyond copyright and right of publicity.
- “This bill, like, solves a lot of that. And that's a right that I think this Sora 2, and so many other things that are happening out there, show us why we really, really need this to be enacted.” – Duncan [10:54]
- Many people mistakenly believe they already have these rights unless highly famous—current law often doesn’t protect ordinary people unless specific contract language or local laws are involved.
4. OpenAI’s Divide: Likeness vs. Copyright, and the Limits of Opt-Out
Timestamps: 10:55–15:16
- OpenAI treats real people’s likeness (faces) as opt-in—users must upload their own image and consent before being used.
- For copyrighted materials (characters, shows), OpenAI applies an opt-out system. Studios like Netflix and Disney must request each property/item be excluded, and OpenAI does not honor blanket opt-outs.
- Actors’ image/voice can end up in Sora-generated videos, even without their knowledge, unless complex, often ineffective claims (Lanham Act, state publicity, etc.) are pursued.
- “Our contract provisions are very, very clear on this point. Any kind of digital replication of a performer has to be with informed consent, including a reasonably specific description of the intended use.” – Duncan [12:45]
5. The Arms Race and Legal Stalemate
Timestamps: 15:17–21:57
- Studios are attempting to fight back: lawsuits against AI companies (e.g., Midjourney), issuing cease-and-desists, and trying to mass-opt-out properties.
- The process is likened to “whack a mole”—new startups and AIs pop up constantly, and mass-infringement is already deeply baked in.
- Matt draws a parallel to the rise of YouTube, where copyright was similarly trampled until the industry was “bludgeoned into acceptance.”
- “They learned that from Google... ultimately it became the biggest media company in the world.” – Matt [16:37]
- Both bemoan the burden opt-out places on rightsholders and how the DMCA’s notice-and-takedown model is being misapplied to AI.
6. Opt-In vs. Opt-Out: Broken Copyright Logic
Timestamps: 21:57–24:26
- The show criticizes how opt-out is unacceptable for copyright and image rights.
- “We have gone down a bad road with opt out and unfortunately I admire many things that the EU did in the AI act, but one of the, in my view, worst things… was that it embraced this opt out idea for text and data mining. And that…sort of has emboldened others to feel like, oh yeah, that's a normal thing…” – Duncan [21:10]
7. What’s Next? Lawsuits, Settlements, and the “Cynic’s View”
Timestamps: 24:27–28:57
- Matt suggests some believe OpenAI wants to be sued, so courts will set industry-wide guidelines and lead to settlements, just as YouTube did with Hollywood years ago.
- Duncan thinks studios don’t want “one-size-fits-all” compulsory licensing because their assets vary in value, and a billion-dollar settlement may be a lost cause if it means ceding foundational rights.
- Hollywood’s reluctance to sue stems partly from uncertain legal precedent and the risk that courts may not offer protection.
- Matt and Duncan note that the tech sector wields vast resources and is openly lobbying for AI-friendly laws, sometimes leveraging competition with China to excuse aggressive copyright disregard.
8. The Tilly Norwood / “AI Actress” Hype
Timestamps: 29:31–34:52
- Recent headlines about agencies signing AI “actresses” (e.g., Tilly Norwood) are, per Duncan, misleading and overblown.
- SAG-AFTRA’s position: only people can be actors—AI avatars are synthetic performers.
- “We don't consider an AI model to be an actor or an actress. An actor is a person. An actor has human experience, human creativity…” – Duncan [30:44]
- Synthetic performances are a concern; current contracts (e.g., with record labels) require streaming royalties for songs generated by AI voices, to create a level economic playing field.
- Matt jokes about agencies representing digital avatars—the broader point being that economic incentives must be aligned to prevent AI from eroding performer livelihoods.
9. The Voice Problem and Technical Catch-Up
Timestamps: 34:52–36:14
- Sora’s capability to realistically replicate not just images but voices (e.g., Seth MacFarlane’s as Peter Griffin) is highlighted as “effed up” and alarming.
- Any temporary technological limitation is “only temporary”—tech is advancing too fast for the industry to rely on the “uncanny valley” or poor quality as protection.
Memorable Quotes & Moments
-
On the speed of AI progress:
“You cannot rely on technical shortcomings as your long term solution to dealing with this technology. Because these companies are advancing so fast…” – Duncan Crabtree-Ireland [35:42] -
On copyright’s opt-in principle being upended:
“This is just turning the entire system on its head... This product is affirmatively altering, perverting, changing, exploiting these intellectual properties and creating new products out of those intellectual properties and trying to lean on this opt out system...” – Matt Belloni [19:47–21:10] -
On the future for human performers:
“If these companies have to pay the same amount of money to use a synthetic performer that they would have to pay to use a human performer, we genuinely believe they're going to want to use human performers.” – Duncan Crabtree-Ireland [33:17]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Sora 2’s Capabilities and Demo Experience – 00:31–06:54
- Legal Gray Area: Training vs. Output – 06:54–09:11
- No FAKES Act and New Image Rights – 09:11–10:55
- Likeness vs. Copyright, Opt-Out System – 10:55–15:16
- AI Industry “Whack-a-Mole”, Lawsuits and Opt-Out Traps – 15:17–21:57
- Why Opt-Out Fails Rightsholders – 21:57–24:26
- Industry Litigation vs. Negotiation – 24:27–28:57
- "AI Actress" (Tilly Norwood), Synthetic Performers & Economic Safeguards – 29:31–34:52
- Sora’s Voice Replication, Tech Moving Fast – 34:52–36:14
Conclusion & Tone
The episode conveys urgency and exasperation at the current legal and technological gap, while providing a clear-headed overview of the challenges and possible paths forward. Matt and Duncan are critical but pragmatic, repeatedly highlighting that what’s at stake is not only Hollywood’s business model but the concept of creative human labor itself in an AI-first future. The conversation is candid, occasionally humorous, and rooted in real-world industry struggle.
For listeners who missed the episode:
This summary covers how open questions in law and technology are colliding in Hollywood as advanced AI like Sora transforms what’s possible in media creation. There is an urgent need for new image and voice rights; the current opt-out systems functionally fail artists and studios; and although AI brings new creative tools, the industry has to act immediately—or risk being permanently outpaced.