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- [00:00]
Bill Simmons
This is Bill Simmons and I want to tell you about my movie podcast, the Rewatchables, where each week I'm joined by ringer movie lovers Chris Ryan, Sean Vanity, Van Lathan, Kyle Brandt, Mallory Rubin. We have a whole bunch of people on we talk about movies we can't stop rewatching. And now you can watch us cover these movies on video in the Spotify app. We have covered over 350 movies, including Heat, Goodfellas, Boogie Nights, Pulp Fiction. We have some real heavy hitters coming up here in 2025. Make sure to follow us on Spotify, where you can watch every new episode. Right now, just head to the Rewatchables on Spotify now on video.
- [00:38]
Matt Bellany
This episode of the Town is presented by max. For your consideration. Max presents the HBO original Mountainhead from the creator of Succession. Mountainhead stars Steve Carell, Jason Schwartzman, Corey, Michael Smith and Rami Youssef as four rival tech billionaires gather for their annual mountain retreat. But when one of their AI platforms sparks a global crisis, their boys weekend spirals into chaos. The future of humanity may be a game to them, but billions of lives are on the table. Emmy eligible for Outstanding Television Movie and all other categories now streaming on max. This episode is brought to you by Lucasfilm presenting ANDOR Season two starring Diego Luna. Rolling Stone hails ANDOR as groundbreaking and masterful with some of the most complex, heartbreaking characters on television. Vanity Fair raves that ANDOR is the best television of the year so far for your Emmy consideration in all categories. All episodes of Andor are now streaming on Disney. It is Wednesday, June 18th. Most people know that the big summer movies you're seeing in theaters are not the movies the filmmakers first delivered. Most movies in theaters and even on Netflix, they go through a test screening process. Regular people are recruited to watch the movie, give their feedback both broadly and incredibly specific. At various times in the production of the movie, both the filmmaker and the studio executives try to interpret that feedback into changes that will make the movie more appealing or clarify something confusing or take out a bad joke or a line that offends people. There are lots of examples of movies that change dramatically after test screenings. In Pretty in Pink, Molly Ringwald originally ended up with John cryer, not Andrew McCarthy. Loki initially died in the dark world. Then it was changed to him faking his death. I'm sure Tom Hiddleston's agents love that choice. After test screenings, Back to the Future added a scene so audiences didn't think Doc Brown's dog died when it was sent to the future very important. Some filmmakers love test screenings. Others hate the process so much they refuse to even engage in it. Most are terrified of test scores because it's the first time they're getting actual feedback from people who aren't kissing their butts or paid to be supportive. That's where Kevin Goetz comes in. He and his company, ScreenEngine, they're the kings of the test screening. He's done tens of thousands of them during his career. And he's also got a podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, and his new book is called how to Score in Hollywood. It's Kevin's job to interpret the audience data, figure out what isn't working, and most importantly, to communicate that message to the filmmaker in as nicest way as possible, at least one of whom tried to rough him up one time. We'll talk about that. It's all hopefully to make the movie better and more appealing. So today it's Kevin Goetz and tales from the test screening trenches. From the ringer and Puck. I'm Matt Bellany, and this is the town. All right, we are here with Kevin Goetz, founder and CEO of Screen Engineering, host of the podcast Don't Kill the Messenger. Welcome, returning champion.
- [03:42]
Kevin Goetz
Thank you, Matt. I love being here, and I am a big admirer of yours.
- [03:48]
Matt Bellany
Oh, thanks.
- [03:49]
Kevin Goetz
Especially your stint on the studio.
- [03:51]
Matt Bellany
Oh, please stop. You know, I'm Emmy eligible in the guest comedy category.
- [03:57]
Kevin Goetz
You got my vote. I'm in the TV academy.
- [04:00]
Matt Bellany
You are. You vote for me. My campaign slogan is let's all do the funniest thing possible.
- [04:06]
Craig Horlbeck
I love it.
- [04:06]
Kevin Goetz
I love it, I love it, I love it.
- [04:08]
Matt Bellany
All right, enough. Enough about me. I want to talk about test screenings because this is a fascinating area of the business that does not get a lot of coverage. By design. Gone are the days when ain't it cool News would post, you know, early reactions from unfinished movies, which I would read when I was young, and I would be like, wow, I can't believe this is out there. But lots of movies change from their original version. I know it's a controversial topic with filmmakers. You know, they have a love hate relationship with test screenings. Do you think test screening is more prevalent these days and more impactful these days than 10, 20, 30 years ago? Or is the auteur driven culture that we are in more impactful and filmmakers are able to resist that kind of stuff?
- [04:56]
Kevin Goetz
I think that it's more prevalent now and more important now. And I'll tell you why I think that with the advent of so much thrown at us. We have to be more and are more judicious about the choices we're making. And quality is absolutely at the forefront of that. Nobody wants to see subpar content on any platform or in a theater or anywhere else.
- [05:25]
Matt Bellany
Yeah, but for, like, Netflix, it doesn't matter as much because it's not, you know, their business is not one movie. Does Netflix even test?
- [05:32]
Kevin Goetz
Of course they test. All of the streamers test. And I have to tell you that that is so not true. They are very committed to quality.
- [05:42]
Matt Bellany
Okay, but If a movie's 15 minutes too long, I think you're going to see less pushback at Netflix than you might at a studio that is trying to make a billion dollars on the movie.
- [05:52]
Kevin Goetz
I will just say this. If you are slow out of the gate for a streamer, you risk tune out right away.
- [05:59]
Matt Bellany
Oh, so theirs is more front loaded. Like what happens in the first 10 minutes?
- [06:02]
Kevin Goetz
I don't think it's more front loaded. It's harder to keep people engaged at home. And so you have to be more cognizant of pace. You have to be more cognizant of length. Regardless of the beginning is obviously the most important part, but it's not the only part. So I would actually contend that the streamers are more disciplined about the process now than ever before. I think in the beginning. I think in the beginning it wasn't that way. And that was because we're filmmaker friendly and we want to bring on great directors.
- [06:35]
Matt Bellany
We won't tell you to cut the last 20 minutes of your fourth ending of the Correct.
- [06:39]
Kevin Goetz
And then the more they got into the analytics and, and the, you know, underneath the surface, I think it was recognized that, hey, we have got to make the best versions of the movies we have. And that's what screenings really do. They're there and designed to really fulfill the filmmaker's vision, quite frankly, in the best way possible. I mean, that really is what a screening is designed to do. People say filmmakers don't like the process or don't. I mean, who. Who doesn't like information? I mean, that's the question.
- [07:10]
Matt Bellany
Well, it's not information. It's usually, we'll get into this, but there's an agenda, typically on these screenings of what the studio wants out of the movie, which may or may not be in contrast.
- [07:22]
Kevin Goetz
I don't think that's true. I think it's what is perpetrated or exacerbated by people in the media. I think that that is the. There's an agenda, hidden agenda. It's not like that. There was a time when maybe there was some truth in that 20, 30 years ago when you had auteur filmmakers who were digging in and saying this version or no version. And I think maybe then it was used possibly more as a weapon than a tool at times.
- [07:52]
Matt Bellany
Well, like Todd Phillips famously refused to test Joker 2. We saw what happened there.
- [07:58]
Kevin Goetz
Yeah, but listen, I understand for also the security purposes that, that, that probably had something to do with that. But again, screenings will help you to make decisions.
- [08:13]
Matt Bellany
So if I lined up 10 A list filmmakers and asked them all, do you prefer test screenings or do you not want to test your movie, how many would say, yeah, gimme the test screenings?
- [08:25]
Kevin Goetz
Seven would say the test screenings. And the three that wouldn't would be people who have not made many movies.
- [08:32]
Matt Bellany
Oh really? Chris Nolan is in love with test screenings.
- [08:35]
Kevin Goetz
No, he is not in love with test screenings, but that's a whole nother subject.
- [08:39]
Matt Bellany
Yeah, he's done pretty well for himself.
- [08:41]
Kevin Goetz
He has, he has.
- [08:43]
Matt Bellany
So give us some little background just like how you put together a test screening, casting it, the where you, where you do it, all of that stuff matters on the results you get. And then we'll get into how you, you interpret the data.
- [08:56]
Kevin Goetz
It's really a process of a partnership between us Screen Engine and, and the studio. So whether it's the research department, the marketing department, head of the studio will often get involved in what is the main objective? What are we trying to do? So mostly the first objective is to see how the movie lands with an audience. So you are going to not, you're not going to try to ask so many specific questions you want, let the audience tell you how, how it's landing.
- [09:26]
Matt Bellany
And often the movie is not finished. There's a temp soundtrack.
- [09:29]
Kevin Goetz
It's almost never finished. It's almost never finished.
- [09:31]
Matt Bellany
No visual effects, et cetera.
- [09:33]
Kevin Goetz
I will tell you though that audiences are going with it so often, even if there are no visual effects. I mean, in Planet of the Apes, you know, you had Andy Serkis next to a guy with dots and yet the scores were really super strong. And the Invisible man when we did that, you know, had no invisible man, just a body walking around with those dots. So there are many examples. And yet those movies could score super well.
- [10:01]
Matt Bellany
Right. All right, so how do you cast? Who is getting into like Craig? Can Craig be a test screener? He's sort of in the business, but he loves movies and like is probably going to be welcoming on. Oh, no way. You don't want Craig.
- [10:15]
Kevin Goetz
No, Craig we love you, but no.
- [10:17]
Matt Bellany
Certainly don't want me.
- [10:19]
Kevin Goetz
Oh, God, no, no. Because we don't want people a, who are in the industry or associated with the industry and we certainly don't want people who have a forum for, to publicly leak things. That is so not fair. It's so not fair for the filmmakers.
- [10:34]
Matt Bellany
So who do you want?
- [10:36]
Kevin Goetz
We want real folks. We want people who go to the movies. If it's a theatrical movie, if it's a streaming movie, we certainly want make sure that they are subscribers to the service.
- [10:48]
Craig Horlbeck
If it's a streaming movie, are they allowed to look at their phones while watching?
- [10:52]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. Or do laundry? Do you have a laundry section there where people can watch while they're, they're, you know, folding clothes to recreate the.
- [10:58]
Craig Horlbeck
At home viewing experience?
- [10:59]
Kevin Goetz
No, no, no.
- [11:00]
Matt Bellany
Painting their nails. You have nail polish.
- [11:02]
Craig Horlbeck
They should be able to use their phones. That's how they'll be watching the movie.
- [11:05]
Kevin Goetz
Well, that is true, perhaps, but in a testing environment, you're trying to create every variable the same. So you don't want to give a streaming movie different odds of succeeding because you're allowing that.
- [11:18]
Matt Bellany
So that's why many of the test screenings are outside la, or if they are in la, it'll be Pasadena, it'll be Rancho Cucamonga, it'll be, you know, places that are not the AMC and Century City.
- [11:29]
Kevin Goetz
Most of them are in and around la. They're not. Most of them are not outside of la.
- [11:33]
Matt Bellany
Oh, okay. But. But not like the Vista in Los Feliz. You're going to the outskirts.
- [11:40]
Kevin Goetz
No, it depends what the movie is. We may be going to the Vista if it's a art house particular kind of. So you ask how we cast the. We cast by what we think typically will be the most low hanging fruit to attend that audience. So we'll get it both gender age wise and race and ethnically, you know, you don't have to worry about if we're doing screens in the UK or France or Japan, we're less concerned with that because they're such homogenized societies. But in America, ethnicity and race really do have certain cultural cues that can really change the trajectory and playability of a movie. For example, even religiosity and churchgoing avidity.
- [12:25]
Matt Bellany
Did you work on Sinners?
- [12:27]
Kevin Goetz
I did.
- [12:29]
Matt Bellany
So where did you test Sinners?
- [12:30]
Kevin Goetz
We tested it in multiple locations. And the thing you asked about a great filmmaker, Ryan Coogler is a great filmmaker. I think he embraces the process completely and utterly. Why? Because he wants to hear the truth. He's not going to compromise his integrity. He's not going to compromise his vision. He's going to enhance it by hearing how his version is connecting.
- [12:55]
Matt Bellany
So what was the feedback on Sinners?
- [12:57]
Kevin Goetz
Well, I can't get into specifics of.
- [12:59]
Matt Bellany
Oh, yeah, you can. Come on.
- [13:01]
Kevin Goetz
Well, I could, but I'm not.
- [13:02]
Matt Bellany
Yeah, I mean, that's a huge success. The movie's grossed $350 million.
- [13:06]
Kevin Goetz
I will say this about that movie. I compare it almost to get out in that there was something beyond the genre, like beyond the nature of the movie itself and moved into this sort of cultural relevance. Clearly, African American audiences on both of those movies were very, very strong. But what happened was that. And this is really not a playability conversation, but a marketability one. What the marketers did is the marketers saw this opportunity to cross out beyond the core African American audience because the vampire aspects of the movie worked so damn well. Plus, they did an incredible social push, and Ryan and Michael B. Jordan were really instrumental in. In pushing out the messages. So I think that it's kind of a textbook marketing story. A really, really strong one.
- [14:02]
Matt Bellany
By the way, on Monday's show, I said, Franklin Leonard came on the show and called the studios racist for their handling of sinners and other black movies. Franklin didn't actually say that. He never called anyone racist. He called out the underinvestment in black films using data from a McKinsey study as evidence. Sorry to Franklin for mischaracterizing that. You can hear him discuss it in our episode from back in April screenings.
- [14:22]
Kevin Goetz
You know, look, if you show something to a friend of yours, Matt, they're gonna say, oh, this is how I feel. This is how I think. Are they wrong? Of course not. And so if you show 300 people a movie, this is how they think, and this is how they feel about this cut presented to them. And if you go in with that notion, they're never wrong. What could be wrong sometimes is the interpretation of. Of what the data is telling you. For example, we ask almost every screening, what do you think of the ending? Well, as you know, a movie could have three or four endings, right? And if you're simply asking, what did you think of the ending, you're doing a disservice. Because if people don't like it, there may be, as I said, five parts of that ending. So rather than sort of saying the ending doesn't work, like, I'll tend to dissect the ending from a certain point in time and talk about each section and can get Much more surgical. And that is enormously helpful for the filmmakers because the ending, obviously, is a very, very important part.
- [15:26]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. I talked to an agent for prominent filmmakers this morning in preparation, and he was telling me, that is your big skill, your differentiator. You are able to get surgical on responses that audiences give you that are sometimes maddening. For instance, the I was confused response. I imagine that is the bane of your existence. Like, what does that mean when you get that?
- [15:53]
Kevin Goetz
Sometimes you watch a movie and there are what I call good confusions, meaning you don't have to be hit over the head with everything. And they add to the intrigue and suspense of a movie. Right. Sometimes you watch a movie, but they're frustrating confusions. They take you out of the movie. You have to turn to your partner and say, what the fuck is going on?
- [16:11]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. Inception is a perfect example. I imagine if Nolan had tested that and took the feedback, many people would be confused.
- [16:18]
Craig Horlbeck
It's like, Inception is probably good confusing, and then Tenet is probably bad confusing.
- [16:23]
Kevin Goetz
Well, that may be the case. We'll never know.
- [16:25]
Matt Bellany
We'll never know because Nolan refuses to test.
- [16:28]
Kevin Goetz
So the question I have, though, is if I can separate in the focus groups mind or in the general audience questionnaires, the difference between those. Suddenly you're getting much more curated responses, not just I was confused by the sleepwalking scene in Macbeth. That's not what they're necessarily saying. They're saying that what came before it was this way or that way. And you're really getting underneath the surface to figure out what are people bumping up against. I mean, how could a filmmaker not listen to that and address that? And here's my analogy. You know, it's like if someone hunks at you on a freeway, they're an asshole. But if six people are honking at you on the freeway, you're the asshole.
- [17:13]
Matt Bellany
Yeah.
- [17:14]
Kevin Goetz
So you better listen when people are saying very loudly, hey, this isn't working. This is really long. Long is not necessarily a bad thing, by the way.
- [17:28]
Matt Bellany
Yeah, but I imagine that's where the battles are always on. Whether it's too long.
- [17:33]
Kevin Goetz
They're usually in three areas. They're usually in confusions, ending or pace and pace and. Or length.
- [17:42]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. One example, apparently you helped. The feedback helped on the first of the recent Halloween reboots where the test audiences were wanted a bigger confrontation between Michael Myers and Jamie Lee Curtis. And the feedback was pretty clear, and you were involved in that. And then they did it, and it worked.
- [18:03]
Kevin Goetz
Exactly. Now they could reshoot and it not work. But we were very careful in advising David Gordon Green and Jason Blum and Cooper and Bill Block. We were very careful in telling them the part of the ending that wasn't working, the emotional sort of part that was not necessarily being fully drained of that release, and that they understood and that we don't tell them, do this, do this, do this. That's up to them. We're telling them, look, guys, this is what. And, ladies, this is what the audience is saying. Do with it what you want. But to not listen to them is at your own peril.
- [18:48]
Matt Bellany
Sure. Is there a good example of a filmmaker who didn't listen to you and was vindicated and it worked?
- [18:55]
Kevin Goetz
First of all, the answer is yes.
- [18:57]
Matt Bellany
Give me a. Give me a title.
- [18:58]
Kevin Goetz
No, I can't. I just know I've worked on over 5,000 movies in my career, truly. Titles.
- [19:05]
Matt Bellany
Do you get a nasty email, Screw you, it worked.
- [19:09]
Kevin Goetz
Usually it's the opposite.
- [19:11]
Matt Bellany
I'm sure. Thank you.
- [19:12]
Kevin Goetz
No, I'm not being. I'm not being funny. No, it's usually. No. There has been very, very contentious discussions from filmmakers saying, you know, from. How dare you to. Why would you say that? Or how did you interpret that?
- [19:26]
Matt Bellany
Well, you're the blunt instrument. I mean, that's kind of what's fascinating about your job is these studio executives use you as the blunt instrument that can say things that they don't want to say. They're all wimps. They will value their relationship, but with the filmmaker so much, it's like that episode of the Studio with Ron Howard. Nobody wanted to give him the obvious note that his movie was too long. And you are the guy that you can bring in, and you have a very nice bedside manner, and you can be straightforward with them and say, listen, this is what the data is saying. Your movie is too long. You need to do this. If you choose not to, fine. But this is what it's saying. And the studio executives love you because you say it in a better way than they can and they keep their relationship.
- [20:12]
Kevin Goetz
First of all, they're not wimps. They have to retain these relationships because they have to still work with these people to get the movie out. So let's face it, you are right. They use me in a particular way, but so do the filmmakers. You know, there's many times that the studio thinks something's too long. And I'll say, guys, it doesn't seem to be the problem that the audience is not saying that.
- [20:32]
Matt Bellany
I heard a very funny story of a studio head at a major studio. Currently, listeners in the know will know who it is who got up with the focus group and basically started arguing with them because he wanted them to nudge towards the reaction that he wanted because he thought that he knew best for the movie and that they wanted specific things to be in there that weren't in there. And the focus group was like not agreeing with him. He basically started trying to get the feedback he wanted by bullying them.
- [21:05]
Kevin Goetz
Well, not on my watch, but I will say that if that were to happen, it's just bad form.
- [21:12]
Matt Bellany
Has anyone ever punched you?
- [21:15]
Kevin Goetz
I don't want to comment on that.
- [21:17]
Matt Bellany
Oh, someone has punched you.
- [21:19]
Kevin Goetz
Well, not punched, but got close, pushed, shoved. People were in my face. But I have seen punches. I have seen fisticuffs at a screening with her.
- [21:30]
Matt Bellany
Was it David O. Russell?
- [21:31]
Kevin Goetz
No. No.
- [21:36]
Matt Bellany
This episode is brought to you by NBC presenting Saturday Night Live, which celebrated its 50th anniversary season with primetime specials, unforgettable live sketches, legendary musical performances, returning cast members, and the biggest stars of the last half century. Emmy eligible in all categories, including outstanding scripted variety series and outstanding variety Special Live, all SNL50 episodes and special programming is streaming on Peacock. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting the Diplomat from writer and creator Deborah Kahn. Keri Russell and Rufus Sewell return, with Allison Janney joining in the explosive second season as US Ambassador Kate Wyler navigates high stakes diplomacy and a fraught marriage in search of the truth. The Guardian lauds the Diplomat a masterclass in storytelling and Indiewire hails it with one of the best shows of the year for your Emmy consideration. All right, so how often do you get into the it ends with us situation where there are two competing cuts of a movie, one spearheaded by maybe the filmmaker, one spearheaded maybe by a star or an executive. And it's a face off where the two are presented to test screenings and the data basically allows the studio to pick one. How often does that happen?
- [22:55]
Kevin Goetz
It does happen more often than you might imagine.
- [22:58]
Matt Bellany
I imagine it happens a lot because there's, you know, people have thoughts.
- [23:01]
Kevin Goetz
There's two ways that that goes. Usually the change is so minute, it's one scene a minute difference, say in screen time. That really doesn't change the DNA of the picture. Where you'll see a big change potentially is when there's a different ending that could really change the entire trajectory of a movie or there was something so objectionable. The filmmaker loves this, but the studio's like, that is hurting you. It's in Act 1, but it's hurting your ending and you're not seeing it. Let's test both versions and see. Then you can really garner if there's a real statistically significant score change. Now, if something comes within two points, three points, you can chalk it up to, you know, audience composition, different psychographic makeups of that audience. Even though it's like you go to the left, you go to the right when we let the audience in. So we try to get exactly matched. But you never have exact matches because people feel and think differently.
- [23:58]
Matt Bellany
Sure, you may hit a particular type of audience. Yeah.
- [24:01]
Kevin Goetz
But we know how to interpret that. But if you're talking 10 point difference, you better listen to that. And then that is a beauty contest winner almost always.
- [24:10]
Matt Bellany
Do the indie studios test as much as the majors for the streamers?
- [24:15]
Kevin Goetz
I don't know if they test as much as. Now, the answer is no because. Principally because of money.
- [24:20]
Matt Bellany
Right. Budgets. How much does it cost to go through a robust round of test screening?
- [24:25]
Kevin Goetz
Well, it depends. A screening Generally of 300 people is, you know, in the neighborhood of 25 to $40,000. Depends on the criteria, depends on the security levels, depends on.
- [24:36]
Matt Bellany
Yeah, but hiring you is not cheap. Or do you. Or they pay you and then you organize everything.
- [24:41]
Kevin Goetz
No, no, no. There's not a premium on me, and perhaps that's shortsighted of me. But, you know, the fact is that we at Screen Engine do a majority, as you know, of the screenings in town and have for many years, since I started the company 15. Over 15 years ago. I think there's an innate trust and a sense that I have a lot of data behind me to support what I'm saying.
- [25:07]
Matt Bellany
So something like F1. How many test screenings would F1 have gone through?
- [25:12]
Kevin Goetz
Probably two or three.
- [25:14]
Matt Bellany
So only three test screenings for that?
- [25:17]
Kevin Goetz
Something like that, yeah. Why would you think there would be more?
- [25:19]
Matt Bellany
I would think that they would fine tune and test multiple things.
- [25:24]
Kevin Goetz
I'm not talking out of school here when I say what I'm about to say because, as you know, I can't talk about specific titles. F1 Jerry talks about, and he says very clearly it was, I think, the highest testing movie. Adam.
- [25:39]
Matt Bellany
Oh, everybody says that. I mean, Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt.
- [25:44]
Kevin Goetz
If Jerry's saying it and I'm here telling you he said it, it's the truth.
- [25:50]
Matt Bellany
Tested higher than Maverick. I thought Maverick was his top testing movie. And this is. F1 is bigger than Maverick.
- [25:57]
Kevin Goetz
I'm just telling you that F1 and Maverick are in that rarefied space of huge testing out of the gate. And maver test multiple times either.
- [26:06]
Matt Bellany
Jerry's had some big movies over the years. The original Top Gun, Pirates of the Caribbean.
- [26:10]
Kevin Goetz
I want you to hear what I'm saying, though. Like when you come out of the gate, very rarefied space to come out of the gate. Testing as strongly as that, you are in a very good position. And all you're really doing at that point is calibration. You follow? If you're not doing anything DNA wise, you're not reshooting anything big. You're not. Nothing like that. And so that is why if someone's. Yeah, it depends the source of telling you. A lot of people, by the way, I want to tell you, a lot of people say, oh, my scores were so high, they were 90. Well, they might be 90 in the top two boxes, but you always want to ask, what was your excellent score and what was your definite recommend score?
- [26:52]
Matt Bellany
Right. That's where we get a lot of these bs correct around. Tested better than anything in the history of Warner Brothers. Well, okay, what does that actually mean?
- [27:02]
Kevin Goetz
Well, so I'm giving you a good piece of advice and your listeners a good piece of advice, which is always ask what was the excellent and what was the definite recommend? Because the definite recommend is that, well, I'm just telling you, what the hell.
- [27:15]
Matt Bellany
Do you want for everyone lies. I know, I know, but that's why they hire you. They hire you to not lie to them. Does Jim Cameron test?
- [27:23]
Kevin Goetz
I believe he does. I've worked on many of Jim's movies.
- [27:26]
Matt Bellany
You have? Okay, so Jim must have heard feedback that Avatar 2 may be a little long.
- [27:34]
Kevin Goetz
I don't know. I can't. I don't know.
- [27:36]
Matt Bellany
I guess the proof's in the pudding.
- [27:38]
Kevin Goetz
I don't know. But I will say he's an extraordinary listener. He really does listen to the audience. I'm telling you, most of the great ones really embrace the process. They may not to you, Matt, but they do to me. And I know the way they interact with the audience.
- [27:55]
Craig Horlbeck
All I know is that I would have given a definite recommend to Babylon.
- [28:00]
Matt Bellany
We all would. Craig, did you work on Babylon?
- [28:02]
Kevin Goetz
I did. Craig, I want to say something. Are you joking or not?
- [28:07]
Craig Horlbeck
No. I love that movie genuinely.
- [28:10]
Matt Bellany
We are a pro Babylon podcast.
- [28:12]
Craig Horlbeck
I think that movie's fantastic. And in 20 years, people are going to look back and realize that it was a masterpiece.
- [28:17]
Kevin Goetz
I don't know masterpiece, but it's close to it. I'm gonna tell you right now, I loved that movie. I think it. You're right, Craig. It sort of encapsulates and crystallizes the era so well. And it was. It was wild.
- [28:32]
Matt Bellany
But the test audiences on Babylon must have hated the ending that where the, you know, the montage of all the movies and everything, I can't speak to that.
- [28:41]
Craig Horlbeck
And the length I'm sure people had an issue with.
- [28:43]
Kevin Goetz
But I will say I'm not lying to you when I say that the movie scored very well. I'll leave it at that.
- [28:50]
Matt Bellany
All right, well, we are going to focus group this episode. We may cut stuff and we may come back to you for some additional audio to use. But thank you for coming on, Kevin. Appreciate it, Matt.
- [29:01]
Kevin Goetz
It's great being here and I really appreciate you.
- [29:05]
Matt Bellany
We are back with the call sheet. Craig. Big interesting weekend at the box office with Elio versus 28 years later.
- [29:14]
Craig Horlbeck
Yeah, these are the only two genres that work anymore in theaters. Kids movies and horror movies.
- [29:19]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. Although the Pixar movie is, I don't want to use the label troubled, but it was delayed a year. I went to the premiere. It was very nice. By the way, lots of town fans at Pixar, very nice. People came up to me, listen to the show in Emeryville. So shout out to the Pixar team up there. I know I say that right as I shit on their movie.
- [29:40]
Craig Horlbeck
So you were at the premiere. What was it like? What was the reaction?
- [29:43]
Matt Bellany
It's fine. It's fine. It is like lesser Pixar. It doesn't feel big. It feels kind of small. It feels a little kiddie. Not as much for the adults, but it's a cool little story. Kid wants to be abducted by aliens and then he gets abducted. And you know, it's got a nice message with the mom and about acceptance and, you know, family. So like, nothing wrong with the movie. It's fine. It just doesn't feel big. It's not going to draw in general audiences. I think it's going to be the family audience.
- [30:12]
Craig Horlbeck
So when you say it feels small, does that actually mean it's just original? Because basically now the kids movies that are really hitting and working are sequels or IP remakes like Lilo and Stitch. And is it just. I mean, when's the last time? I don't know if you want to count Elemental as a hit, but Pixar has not had an original hit in a while.
- [30:29]
Matt Bellany
I agree, but when I say small, I mean it's not particularly funny. It doesn't have big outlandish characters. It's. The concept is pretty small. It's not a big all tent concept.
- [30:41]
Craig Horlbeck
The concept is Small.
- [30:43]
Matt Bellany
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Craig Horlbeck
Getting abducted by aliens.
- [30:45]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. It feels like any number of kids movies. It's not like Elemental at least had a cool concept, like it's a rom com, but the man and woman are literally fire and water. Like that's interesting.
- [30:58]
Craig Horlbeck
Okay.
- [30:58]
Matt Bellany
I mean, it's hard to compare on this stuff because all in the execution in animation.
- [31:02]
Craig Horlbeck
Yeah.
- [31:03]
Matt Bellany
But the character design and everything about it just feels a little smaller than usual. Pixar and obviously it's not a sequel to one of their big hits, so it's not going to do inside out numbers. But it'll be an interesting test on whether a Pixar original can still perform. And Elemental, I think, got to a hit status because a lot of like foreign territories ended up saving it. But we'll see. We'll see if this one does. The number on it is 31 according to NRG. I think others have it about 30.
- [31:31]
Craig Horlbeck
Yeah, we're recording this a little early, so it might change.
- [31:33]
Matt Bellany
It might change a little. Yeah. I think that Disney is not 100% behind this one. It was delayed and they just kind of want to get past it. So I'm going to take the under on 31 for Elio and then I'm going to take the over on 34 for 28 years later. I think there is goodwill for this franchise. The trailers and materials have been fantastic. I think Sony really needs this to work because Karate Kid is not doing it for their summer and I think that they're going to get to above 34 for this. So I do think the zombie movie is going to beat the Pixar movie.
- [32:11]
Craig Horlbeck
Yeah. It's funny, the first two, the 28 days later and 28 weeks later, the first one was a big hit relative to its budget. The second one less so.
- [32:19]
Matt Bellany
Yeah, but this was 20 something years ago.
- [32:21]
Craig Horlbeck
Yeah, it was 07.
- [32:23]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. And Danny Boyle is back and I think that, you know, Alex Garland is a much bigger deal now. I think among the fans. This one has a lot of credibility and a lot of heat around it. Are you going to see either of these movies?
- [32:36]
Craig Horlbeck
No, don't do horror and then I don't have children.
- [32:39]
Matt Bellany
You know, that's the thing, is there's nothing in Elio for you. Normally I would recommend Pixar movies to my adult friends, but not much in this one. You listen, we just, you know, we talked a lot about on the show last week about the rise of the family movie and maybe this one will be squarely in that wheelhouse and people are feeling goodwill after Lilo. And Stitch and how to Train youn Dragon. And they'll show up. But this one's an original and it doesn't feel like an event, but it's totally fine. Like, I don't want to shit on their movie, but I just don't think it's going to deliver.
- [33:13]
Craig Horlbeck
I think it's just hard for. For animated originals, you know?
- [33:15]
Matt Bellany
Well, unless it's based on some previous ip.
- [33:18]
Craig Horlbeck
Exactly. I don't know if it's a product of this movie not being that great or if it's just a different landscape right now for what brings families and parents and kids to a theater.
- [33:26]
Matt Bellany
Yeah. And, you know, next, Pixar's next movie is an original Hopper next spring. So we'll see how they do then. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Kevin Goetz, producer Craig Horlbeck, art Jesse Lopez, and I want to thank you. We'll see you next week. The Town is supported by FX's say Nothing now, nominated for four BAFTA TV awards. Based on the book by Patrick Radenkeef, the Peabody Award nominee is a story of murder and memory in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Following Dolores and Marion Price, it explores the extremes some people will go to in the name of their beliefs and how a deeply divided society can suddenly tip over into armed conflict. Time calls say nothing exceptional. An urgently timely work of political art. All episodes streaming on Hulu.