The Retro Innovation of ‘The Pitt,’ With Lead Producer John Wells

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Town with Matthew Belloni

Episode: The Retro Innovation of ‘The Pitt,’ With Lead Producer John Wells

Host: Matt Belloni (The Ringer)
Guest: John Wells (Executive Producer, ‘The Pitt’)
Date: February 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the unexpected success and innovative production model behind HBO Max’s hit medical drama, The Pitt. Matt Belloni interviews renowned TV producer John Wells, exploring how the show’s “retro” broadcast-style approach—in terms of budget, episode count, and Los Angeles-based production—is revolutionizing the streaming landscape. Their discussion ranges from the show's origins and business model to the broader trends in television, the efficiency and creative impact of filming in L.A., and Wells' experiences as a Guild leader.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 'Retro' Business Model of The Pitt ([04:10]–[09:17])

• Broadcast Model on Streaming:

  • The Pitt airs 15 episodes per season on HBO Max (compared to the streamer norm of 6-8).
  • Episodes are produced for $5–6 million each—roughly half the cost of typical prestige dramas.
  • Maintains ongoing character development and weekly engagement reminiscent of classic TV.

• Industry Reaction:
  “People talk to me, they come up to me and say, how in the world do you do 15 episodes?... One year, I did 66 between three different shows, between West Wing, ER and Third Watch.” – John Wells [04:53]

• Audience Connection:
  Wells argues that ongoing, longer seasons create a deeper audience connection lost in the binge-release era.
  “We have lost with the shorter episode shows…the connection that the audience has with those characters...to make it part of their lives.” – John Wells [05:08]

• HBO Max’s Support:
  Wells underlines the creative freedom and practical backing provided by HBO Max, describing it as a key enabler for the show’s unique, efficient production.

2. Shooting in LA – Economics and Logistics ([08:45]–[12:29])

• Tax Incentives and Crew Stability:

  • The show leverages California's tax credit, employs ~1000 people, and films almost exclusively on the Warner Bros. lot.
  • “...it makes a difference. It makes a huge [difference] for us.” – John Wells [23:52]

• Set Efficiency:

  • The main hospital set is reused—an upfront investment that lowers costs season-to-season.
  • “We shoot nine day episodes and we built the set at the beginning of it. It was an expensive set, but having [it], we shoot on it every single day.” – John Wells [07:49]

• Cast & Crew Loyalty:

  • LA-based shooting allows for vast hiring pools and stable crews. Only 3 of 150 crew did not return for season two. [11:40]
  • “And we get a great crew that's a California crew that wants to be home and is happy to be home.” – John Wells [09:41]

3. Casting, Extras, and On-Set Culture ([11:50]–[12:51])

• Extras and Realism:

  • Long-term extras have become a fixture, even forming a “reading club” while waiting between takes.
  • “We have a reading library that Noah founded that's just off, just a little like library of books…a few of them have read as many as 12 or 13 books during the seven months.” – John Wells [12:05]

• Authenticity of Roles:

  • Commitment to realism extends to props and extras’ storylines, enhancing the authenticity of the ER environment.

4. Influence on Industry & Potential Copycats ([12:51]–[14:22])

• Inspiring Other Shows:

  • Producers are reaching out to Wells for advice, but few have yet successfully copied this model due to creative and financial hurdles.
  • “There are several that are in various processes… The support that we got from HBO Max…allowed us to do it.” – John Wells [13:05]

• Awards Attention:

  • The Pitt’s Emmy win surprised even Wells, especially considering procedural shows rarely receive such recognition outside of HBO’s brand.
  • “Not just that it was a good show that people watched, but that it became an award show because you don't typically see procedural type shows get that award's attention.” – Matt Belloni [13:56]

5. Streaming Trends & The Value of Long-Running Series ([15:28]–[20:17])

• Return to 'Comfort TV':

  • Wells and Belloni discuss how streaming now resembles broadcast, with library shows like NCIS and West Wing dominating viewing time.

• Debate on Originals vs. Licensing:

  • Belloni questions why most streamers, notably Netflix, hesitate to invest in shows with long-term episode potential, preferring to license instead.

• Future Model Predictions:

  • Wells believes there will be a blend: limited high-budget events, long-running comfort shows, and live events or sports.
  • “I think we're gonna see shows that have multiple episodes… but not as the only model.” – John Wells [19:36]

6. Industry Shifts – Pilot Season, Casting, and Talent Logistics ([20:17]–[23:38])

• The Revival of Pilots:

  • NBC is experimenting with a return to pilot season, and Wells sees value in testing concepts before full production.
  • “There's a lot of advantage [to pilots] because you get a chance to see what's working and not working… There are real advantages to it.” – John Wells [20:29]

• Casting Anecdotes:

  • Early days of ER, George Clooney was seen as a breakout risk, while Noah Wyle was virtually unknown—and last cast.
  • Family life is a motivator for stars (e.g., William H. Macy and Shameless) to work in LA.

7. California Tax Credits and Production Decisions ([23:52]–[24:48])

• Financial Impact:

  • The tax credit covers about 20% of the budget, making LA filming competitive with or even preferable to other locations.
  • “Pennsylvania would be more expensive…flying people in and out… and the availability of the crew …” – John Wells [24:24]

• Technical Expertise:

  • Access to top-tier prosthetic and VFX professionals in LA keeps production quality high.

8. Creative Challenges & Controversies ([24:48]–[27:12])

• Handling Sensitive Episodes:

  • An upcoming episode on ICE (immigration enforcement) was vetted by network execs for balance, not censorship.
  • “They just wanted to make sure it was balanced…they weren't saying, don't do this or don't do that.” – John Wells [25:04]

• Portraying Political Issues:

  • Wells emphasizes truthful storytelling over advocacy, mindful of a politically diverse/viewer landscape.
  • “We try to appeal to a broad audience…if it's truthful, I think that people stick with us.” – John Wells [26:56]

9. Writers Guild, Strikes, and Industry Retrenchment ([27:47]–[30:15])

• Guild Politics:

  • Wells, a former WGA president, shares concerns about health, pensions, residuals, and employment stability for writers post-strikes.
  • “Every strike is a failed negotiation. Right…The Writers Guild isn't a hiring hall, but…they do need to be concerned…” – John Wells [28:13]

• Creator Anxiety:

  • Many writers worry the retrenchment and the strike have worsened conditions, with drops in employment and pay amid industry contraction.
  • “It's…that we were headed into a retrenchment in the entire industry…that was part of what led to the strike on both sides…” – John Wells [29:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “One year, I did 66 between three different shows…”
  — John Wells on old-school TV production workload [04:53]

• “None of these are particularly original observations for me, but we all have this experience of having watched something…on a full six or eight episode order and coming in saying, ‘Oh, are you watching?’ And the other person says, ‘I'm only on episode two, I don't want to talk about it.’”
  — John Wells on the pitfalls of binge models [06:11]

• “We have a reading library that Noah founded...underneath most of those blankets are actually books…”
  — John Wells shares a quirky detail from set life [12:05]

• “You always think that something might not work, but I didn't feel like I was spending $14, $15 million an episode for something. And that is a huge risk."
  — John Wells on relative risk in the ‘Pitt’ business model [13:39]

• “The community really embraced it…all of these wonderful actors…medical professionals…they're really showing what we do.”
  — John Wells on Emmy success & industry reception [14:22]

• “It's gonna be a combination of things. Live sports, event, limited series…You're just not gonna be able to do a House of Dragons every year, no matter what.”
  — John Wells on the future TV business model [19:36]

• “Every strike is a failed negotiation…at the end of it, you always look at each other and say, why couldn't we have done that on the back of a napkin at the Polo lounge?”
  — John Wells reflecting on Guild strikes and the changing nature of the industry [28:13 | 29:58]

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Additional Highlights

• Casting in the LA Market:

  • LA’s talent pool made the large, diverse cast possible and made full use of local extras.

• Broader TV Industry Trends:

  • The hosts tie in issues like streamer consolidation, IP hoarding/licensing, and efforts to recapture regular viewing habits in a fragmented era.

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Key Timestamps

• [04:10] – Beginning of discussion on The Pitt’s business model
• [07:37] – On HBO Max's support and creative approach
• [08:45] – California tax credit, budgeting, and on-set economies
• [12:22] – On set life and the use of extras
• [13:05] – Influence on other producers/shows
• [14:22] – Emmy surprise and acting community buy-in
• [15:28] – Discussion of streaming trends and long-running series
• [19:36] – Wells’ predictions for TV's future
• [23:52] – California tax credits vs. out-of-state production
• [24:48] – Handling politically sensitive episodes
• [27:47] – Writers Guild, strikes, and industry retrenchment

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich dive into how The Pitt’s “retro-innovation”—via longer seasons, lower budgets, and LA-centric production—is shaking up the streaming ecosystem from inside HBO Max. John Wells’ candid reflections illuminate not just the making of a hit show, but also larger truths about TV’s evolving economics, audience habits, and the shifting sands for both creative talent and business leaders in Hollywood.

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For further episodes and show notes:
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Transcript

[Matt Belloni]

This episode is brought to you by Warner Brothers Pictures. Nominated for a record breaking 16 Academy Awards including best Picture, Sinners is a wholly original, deeply personal story from writer director Ryan Coogler. A rich commentary on the black experience and the blues music it inspired, Sinners showcases the joy, pain, spirit and soul of a 1930s Mississippi community as an evil descends upon it. Critics are calling Sinners vibrantly filmed, every frame imbued with history, every and impeccably crafted, superbly acted, electrifying and glorious. Sinners. For your awards consideration, This episode of the Town is presented by 20th Century Studios. Avatar Fire and Ash. Don't miss the movie Critics are raving is epic and exciting and gorgeous and heartbreaking and stands as one of the greatest films ever made. It's got incredible visuals and jaw dropping action and a cinematic achievement. Avatar Fire and Ash now playing in theaters and now nominated for the Academy Awards for best Visual Effects and Best Costume Design. It is Thursday, February 26th. It's a pretty big statement about Hollywood these days that a show like the Pit on HBO Max feels kind of revolutionary. It's a procedural medical drama on a platform that made its name avoiding shows like procedural medical drama dramas costs only about $5 million per episode, about half the price of a typical prestige drama. There's 15 episodes per season at a time when many streaming shows are doing six or eight episodes. And here's the biggest shocker they made. The Pit in Los Angeles, mostly on the Warner Brothers lot in Burbank. That didn't just happen. It's the result of a strategic play by HBO Max and the lead executive producer John Wells to bring back the feeling of those prestige broadcast TV dramas of the 80s and 90s. And it worked. The Pit is not only a major hit, it's one of the few shows on HBO Max that charts on the weekly Nielsen top 10. It also won the best drama series Emmy last fall. Its second season is now airing. So I thought it was a great time to have John Wells on the show. He's got one of the great TV producing resumes in Hollywood history. Er, the West Wing, Shameless, Southland, Animal Kingdom list goes on and on. He was also president of the Writers Guild, so I'll ask him about that. And he's worked with so many people in town that he's always one of the most popular guys in the room. That was certainly true when I said hello at the Directors Guild Awards the other night, where of course his show won. We're going to talk about the novel slash retro business model for The Pit, how it's influencing the development of other shows. HBO Max is trying to do a cop show now on the similar model. Some of the tax incentive issues in California, how an upcoming episode of the Pit involving ice had to be scaled back a bit. Lots more to talk about. So today it's John Wells and how to make a hit show in LA without going broke from the ring. Iron Puck, I'm Matt Bellany and this is the town. Okay. We are here with John Wells, writer, director, producer, executive producer of the Pit, founder of John Wells Productions, former president of the Writers Guild of America. Did I miss anything?

[John Wells]

No, I think that's it.

[Matt Belloni]

You know, it's funny, I was thinking back to how I know you, and you were part of one of the most notorious Hollywood Reporter roundtables of all time. Do you remember this?

[John Wells]

I do.

[Matt Belloni]

It was like 2009, 2010, in the middle of the writers strike. And Aaron Sorkin, who you worked with many times at West Wing, obviously we were in the middle of this, and he spouts this line where he said something like, if the writers want to make more money, they should write better. And we're sitting there, we're like, aaron, you're sitting with the president of the Writers Guild. That and a guy that you have worked with for years. You can't say that to him.

[John Wells]

Yeah, definitely left me out in the cold on that one.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, I imagine you probably add some words with him after that was all over.

[John Wells]

We've been working together so long that I was not surprised.

[Matt Belloni]

You know, very on brand for him. And I think your response was very, even keeled, very on brand for you.

[John Wells]

You know, I was the president of the Guild. I needed to have a measured response.

[Matt Belloni]

Right, of course. All right, so I wanted you on to talk about the Pit because there's many issues, business issues that come up with this show that I think, you know, there's been a lot written about it. But I wanted to talk to you specifically about the model for the show, how you guys are trying to, you know, have a template for other shows to follow to keep this kind of old school, broadcast style, quality show in existence in the streaming age. First of all, I want to know why was it so difficult? Why is this considered innovative to do 15 episodes on a broadcast style model for a streaming service? Like, why is this. Why was this a thing?

[John Wells]

You know, it's interesting. People talk to me, they come up to me and say, how in the world do you do 15 episodes? And I was like, one year, I did 66 between three different shows, between West Wing, ER and Third Watch. So no, it's. I think there are a lot of things. One, the shows themselves in the competition during the streaming wars got bigger and bigger and they just became. Because you were trying to attract a lot of eyeballs, you had a lot of very well known people who were appearing in these. And literally when you're doing world building, just the CGI and everything that you have to do to get it back on the air and how expensive they are, it made it more and more difficult to do a lot of episodes. So the conversation we had was, can we do a show that feels like a prestigious streamer show because we were going to be on HBO Max that can duplicate the sense of having a lot of story, a lot of episodes, and more importantly, allow the audience to become connected to a show again. I mean, I think one of the things we have lost with the shorter episode shows that don't appear except every couple of years is the connection that the audience has with those characters and the desire to come back and make it part of their lives.

[Matt Belloni]

Totally agree with you.

[John Wells]

You know, and we used to talk about it as water cooler, but now, of course, it's all social media. People want a show that's their show that they connect to, that they can find, that they can tell other people about. And then that the next day after they've watched it, or after the weekend after they've watched it, they can talk with their friends about it, talk about it, exchange social media, tweet about it, do whatever you want to do. I think that's actually an important part of the viewing experience. And we've gotten away from it in the streaming simply because of the size of the shows, how long they take to produce the streaming, the drop all of the episodes at once Netflix model, which makes it very difficult. Again, none of these are particularly original observation for me, but we all have this experience of having watched something and come, you know, on a. That got dropped as a full six or eight episode order and coming in saying, oh, are you watching? And the other person says, like, I'm only on episode two, I don't want to talk about it.

[Matt Belloni]

Or you finish it. And you're like, wow, that's great cliffhanger. I can't wait to pick it up in two and a half years when they get around to making more.

[John Wells]

So we were, you know, Warner Brothers approached us about doing some more HBO Max and also David Zaslav, just about, you know, can we do it? And we were like, well, Absolutely. I don't know if the audience is primed for it or not, but the advantage of doing this show on HBO is that we can, on HBO Max, is that we can do it realistically, which gave us a new thing to show or to talk about with these medical professionals, actually see what they really go through.

[Matt Belloni]

Guys, Zaslav must just love this show. It's exactly the. His dream. It wins the awards, everybody talks about it. It does huge ratings and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

[John Wells]

Yeah, there, there are real efficiencies that people are aware of when you can build a single set and shoot on it, you know, and we shoot nine day episodes and we built the set at the beginning of it. It was an expensive set, but having built on it, we shoot on it every single day.

[Matt Belloni]

Yes. And we know the whole backstory that it was, you know, the original idea was an error sequel and we're not going to get into the lawsuit or any of that stuff. I do want to talk about some of the business issues with the show. Because you guys shoot this in la and because of that and because you get a pretty big tax credit for it. Some of the financials on the show are public. And you know, you employ, according to the filings, you employ about a thousand cast and crew members. You film 135 days in state and you spent about $65 million for this second season. Is that the entire budget? Is that that you get a credit against? Or like how. What percentage 15 episodes cost? About how much per episode?

[John Wells]

The per episode? You know, this year is a little more than last year, but we were under $6 million per episode. Okay. Yeah.

[Matt Belloni]

So that's about 75 million for a season, which is pretty darn cheap for the number of episodes that you're getting out of it. And I imagine there are efficiencies that you can use for going season to season.

[John Wells]

Yeah, we have a built set, so we're just back shooting on something that we bought last year, so.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, right. And I'm only, you know, we're only a couple of episodes into season two, but there's not a lot of outside shots in this show.

[John Wells]

It's about one day, one shift. So you're there the whole time with the workers.

[Matt Belloni]

But last season you did go to Pittsburgh, right, And shoot a couple of scenes.

[John Wells]

Yeah, and we did again this year we go and shoot sort of the beginning and the end and then a couple of scenes when people walk outside of the hospital or up onto the helicopter pad. But no it's almost entirely shot on stage in Los Angeles.

[Matt Belloni]

Was that always the plan? You, you. I thought you moved it from Pittsburgh in order to get the credit, correct.

[John Wells]

No, we were. It was always the plan. And a large part of that was we knew from the beginning we used. Each season now we've used around 250 speaking parts. And so just the economies of being someplace where you have, you know, over two seasons, 500 actors that you can hire if you're in Pittsburgh or if you're in most places other than New York City, you're going to be flying hundreds of actors in very quickly. So that's one of the real advantages of it. And we get a great crew that's a Pittsburgh, that's a California crew that wants to be home and is happy to be home. And so all of that works really well.

[Matt Belloni]

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[John Wells]

I think we literally had three crew members out of the 150 crew members leave after the first season who didn't return in the second.

[Matt Belloni]

You know, who's your lead casting director on the show?

[John Wells]

Kathy Sandrich.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, Amazing, amazing casting on the show. Everybody is amazing.

[John Wells]

She was originally, she's like, how many people are there every week? So they've done a fantastic show. Well.

[Matt Belloni]

And you have to find these extras to sit in the waiting room the entire season.

[John Wells]

Yeah, they come in for seven months. We have a reading library that Noah founded that's just off, just a little like library of books. And so underneath most of those blankets are actually books that people are reading. They have a little club and a few of them have read as many as 12 or 13 books during the seven months.

[Matt Belloni]

And these guys, literally they sit there because they have to be there in those scenes when they walk by the waiting room. And it's the same people for the entire season. Yeah.

[John Wells]

And they're fantastic because they have, they're actually told what it is that they're in for and they go through props and everything every morning and then the day is planned out so they know when they're going to get their meal during the entire time, when they're going to get their X rays, et cetera, for every single patient. It's, it's really a beautiful thing that the ad staff does.

[Matt Belloni]

So you must have people reaching out to you, other producers saying, how did you do this and how can we do this? And what advice do you say to them? Like, why haven't we seen copycat shows yet that are on this model?

[John Wells]

Well, things go slowly. I think there are several that are in various processes of trying to do it and they will be able to do it in large part. And I want to be really frank about this. The support that we got from HBO Max to do it, once we came in and said this is what we're planning to do was tremendous and allowed us to do it. There was not a lot of second guessing what we're up to. The larger the budget, the harder it is to get a full buy in and creative freedom.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, this is not that much of a risk. I mean, did you think it was a risk?

[John Wells]

Well, you always think that something might not work, but I didn't feel like I was know spending 14, $15 million an episode for something. And that is a huge risk.

[Matt Belloni]

Well, and it's a proven star in this genre. You've done this show, a version of

[John Wells]

it before, as has Scott and.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, yeah. Like this is a no brainer to me. The thing that was surprising to me is that not just that it was a good show that people watched, but that it became an award show because you don't typically see procedural type shows get that award's attention And I know the HBO brand goes a long way in that regard and it would have been an uphill battle if this was for CBS or Peacock or somewhere else. But the fact that you executed on a level to get the awards attention, I think was the surprise.

[John Wells]

Certainly a surprise to us. I would be lying if I said we weren't surprised. At the same time, I think the community really embraced it, particularly the acting community, because there are all of these wonderful actors who are getting to work on the show. And I think that's a big part of how we ended up getting all that attention along with the medical professionals who saw it and said, they're really doing it. What we do, they're really showing what we do.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah. We were talking before you came on about how one of Craig's family members is a doctor and it's pretty damn accurate.

[John Wells]

It's as best we can.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah. I also think the award stuff is helped by exactly what you said. People want this kind of show to succeed. You know, Severance is a great show and people love it. But it's, it's the streaming style show, auteur driven, drops every 10 episodes or whatever, every three years. And it's like little movies that, you know, this, yours is a television show in the old school way. Do you think TV is headed that direction? Do you think we're kind of emerging from the streaming era and kind of regressing a little in the kinds of shows that we're going to embrace?

[John Wells]

Well, I would, I would say that I don't think it's necessarily a regression. It's a. It a kind of storytelling that we've done since the beginning of television. And streaming is increasingly becoming, as I think it has to, becoming just replacing broadcast television. There's a reason that the streamers are competing for live sports and live events because they're really providing the same. Go to one place and try and see a lot of different things, have lots of different choices that we had during the cable TV broadcast and cable television system. So I think there's a space for everybody. I think that people want these kind of shows. I think people still want to see good sitcoms that they can laugh at and then they want to see the upper, the additional version of it that happens on streaming.

[Matt Belloni]

What's interesting though is that when you look at the weekly Nielsen charts and what really performs on streaming service, it's these library shows, shows with 200, 300 episodes, you know, NCIS, Bob's Burgers, West Wing, these shows that have huge libraries that People still get into. And yet when you look at the originals being produced by most streaming services, it's not that they're not even trying to create the kinds of shows that could go 100 or 200 episodes. And I've asked people at Netflix why that's the case and they say, well, we can just license those shows. We don't need to make them because we can license them. And what brings people into the service is new, new, new, the fire hose, something you haven't seen yet. And the comfort, the old library stuff is what keeps them and what eats up the hours. But we want the new. And I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I feel like a new show that can deliver 100, 200 episodes is going to ultimately deliver more value both now and into the future. And if you're making it at Netflix or Amazon or one of the others and you can own it and control your destiny, then why not take more swings in that arena?

[John Wells]

Well, I think you're onto something. I think that's actually where it is headed. And when you look at what's going on right now, where Netflix would like to buy Warner Brothers, they're buying.

[Matt Belloni]

Why are they buying Warner Brothers?

[John Wells]

Why are they buying Warner Brothers? That's the reason and for that expertise. But I think you're also going to see many more attempts to keep shows going. And when you look at like what happened, you know, they're doing another season of Ted Lasso that's extremely important to Apple. They want more of those. I think if they could do 10 seasons of Ted Lasso, they would do 10 seasons of.

[Matt Belloni]

Have you heard what Sudeikis is making?

[John Wells]

I haven't, I don't really follow if

[Matt Belloni]

there is a situation where there was ever leverage the number. I mean, it's still the number one show on Apple when we turned on. If they don't have something new, it's always in the top 10. I'm like, this point, who is subscribed to Apple TV plus and has not watched Ted Lasso or is it just people watching it over and over again? They just want to feel good.

[John Wells]

I think that's the case. I mean I, you know, we have West Wing and, and made 167 of them, I think. And I can't tell you how often I run into people who say I just watched West Wing again because it.

[Matt Belloni]

Oh, I did during COVID Yeah, it made me feel very good. And my father in law is doing it right now. He's like, oh man, that John Goodman, he. He's a. He's a great addition. I'm like, oh, yeah, that happened.

[John Wells]

Well, we get all different kinds of. That's. We did a show that I was really proud of called Animal Kingdom for TNT that went on to Netflix and did really well this last summer. And people stop me on the street all the time and to say, I love your new show on Netflix. And I think they're talking about Untamed, which we did, and they're all like, no, no, no, Animal Kingdom. I'm saying, yeah, well, we made it 11 years ago. But sure, that new show on Netflix,

[Matt Belloni]

Bryan Cranston told me that when his Showtime show, your Honor, went on Netflix, and, you know, it was on Showtime during the pandemic, and people, you know, didn't really know it happened. It's a good show. So on Netflix, people think it's new. I know that's a whole separate topic. And someday, if this deal goes through, maybe all of your shows will just permanently, permanently be on Netflix.

[John Wells]

Yeah, it's. But I do. To your point, I think what we're going to see is a combination. I think we're going to see, you know, what would be the same thing as the way that the old theatrical distribution system worked, which was you had certain blockbusters that came and drove people into the theaters, and then you had a number of other shows that were ongoing, that were important. So I think we're gonna see shows that have multiple episodes, that everybody's gonna be moving towards that, but not as the only model. It's gonna be a combination of things. Live sports, event, limited series that come back on, that people are connected to every couple of years. You're just not gonna be able to do a House of Dragons every year, no matter what you wanted to do. It's not gonna happen.

[Matt Belloni]

Did you see that? NBC is saying that they're bringing back a version of pilot season. It's not quite the same. It's not like when they used to make 100 or whatever, but they are going to try more, which seems smart.

[John Wells]

Well, look, it's what HBO Max does. They didn't do it on our show because the. On the Pit because the set itself to build it was large enough and expensive enough that it didn't make sense. But they. They make pilots to see if it's working. There's a lot of advantage to it because you get a chance to see what's working and not working. You make adjustments into your writer's room. There are real advantages to it. So I Think it got a bit of a bad rap back in the day.

[Matt Belloni]

Well, there were too many. I mean the notion of doing, you know, 20, 30 pilots to pick a couple shows like that, to me doesn't make sense anymore.

[John Wells]

And doing it all at the same time and competing for the exact same people.

[Matt Belloni]

Exactly. I mean just thinking back to that, it was nuts. You know, you had these business affairs people staying up all night doing these test deals on. On 10 different shows that were all shooting at the same time. Yeah, crazy. So that doesn't make sense. But I do think that the era of the straight to series and without testing stuff out, you can do that, but you're not going to have the same kind of quality, I don't think. So you're a believer in that?

[John Wells]

Well, I'm a believer in it for certain things. I think there are times when it makes a lot of sense to do it. But again, trying to do it in this, where you're competing, where you've got four actors that everybody wants for 30 shows was insane.

[Matt Belloni]

Was Clooney a hot commodity when you were casting?

[John Wells]

Er, well that's complicated. He was somebody who people felt was going to break.

[Matt Belloni]

He had done a couple that had failed and.

[John Wells]

But he.

[Matt Belloni]

And kept getting cast. He was like the Kyle Bornheimer. He's done quite a bit early 90s television. That guy shows up on so many different shows. But. Yeah, so. So you. But you were confident.

[John Wells]

Yes, we wanted him for it. He wanted to do it. He actually George was sort of fantastic on the lot. Known well on the lot for going around and getting all the scripts before anybody got picked up and deciding and hoping things that he'd want to do. But he said he wanted that part and he told Les Moonvest he wanted that part. He had another thing that he was going to be the lead of that he didn't want to do and he came in and said, I want to do this. So he was. The first person who got cast on

[Matt Belloni]

the show was Noah Wiley. Lasso.

[John Wells]

Noah Wiley was dead last. He was a 21, 22 year old kid who was waiting tables in West Hollywood. So yeah.

[Matt Belloni]

Was it a hard conversation to get him to come back?

[John Wells]

It was his idea. He wanted to, you know, like so many people and it's one of the advantages of doing a show in Los Angeles. He, in the years since we did er, he hadn't worked in Los Angeles, he'd done a show in Vancouver, he'd done a show in New Orleans, he'd done a show and he's got a family and, you know, the desire to come back. We ended up doing Shameless in Los Angeles because Bill Macy would do it if he could be in Los Angeles because he had two young girls. So people want to be at home, they want to see their families. We have great crews and if we can find, if we can figure out the way financially to make it work for the show. There are tremendous advantages to shooting in Los Angeles.

[Matt Belloni]

I know that was the craziest thing when I found out that Shameless was made in la because you could not tell how long would you go to Chicago.

[John Wells]

We went a couple of different times a year for like two weeks and, and, and got a lot of stuff. But there's also a lot of North Hollywood that the back alleys and the laundromats look a lot like Chicago.

[Matt Belloni]

Right. All right, so let's get to how the tax incentives work on this. Because not every production gets what they want. Correct. So what percentage of your budget is offset by the California tax credit?

[John Wells]

I don't actually know that I can tell you. It's. It's probably 20 some odd percent. All done. You know, I'd have to go and ask somebody in the accounting office. But it makes a difference. It makes a huge for us. And particularly since if we were going to make 15 of them, if HBO was going to commit that up front, you know, everything that we could do to make that more. Less of a risk for them at this number was very important.

[Matt Belloni]

Was it still more expensive in LA than if you had gone to Pennsylvania?

[John Wells]

No, Pennsylvania would have more be more expensive for some of the reasons that I told you earlier.

[Matt Belloni]

One is just flying people in and

[John Wells]

out, flying people in and out and those kind. And the availability of the crew and particularly for. We do a lot of prosthetics and there's a lot of visual effects and things that we do that would have been very difficult stuff.

[Matt Belloni]

I look away and I can't watch.

[John Wells]

Yeah, yeah, it's. So there's a lot of skilled work that goes into the doing of it.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah. By the way, I heard that. I don't think the episode has aired yet, but I heard there is an ice situation on an episode coming up this season and that HBO actually asked you guys to tone it down a little. Is that correct?

[John Wells]

Well, no, not tone it down a little bit. There is a nice situation coming up because it's a real issue in emergency rooms. And in fact, there was just recently a New York Times article about it. Even though we shot this a couple of Months ago. No, they just want to make sure it was balanced. The thing we have to be careful about when we're talking about any of these issues, when we're talking about vaccines, when we're talking about the way in which the healthcare system works, is to make certain that we're actually presenting both points of view, because we're not really in the business of preaching to the choir on the show. There are real issues about immigration and there are real issues about immigration enforcement within public health system in which you really need people to come in. So that's what we were dealing with, and they just wanted to make sure it was balanced. But they weren't saying, don't do this or don't do that. In fact, quite the opposite. We showed them a lot of the research and they were like, yeah, that looks like good story.

[Matt Belloni]

And do you think that was a creative note or do you think that was a politically minded note? We don't want to ruffle any feathers. This show is getting a lot of attention now.

[John Wells]

Yeah. I mean, not that I heard from them specifically, so I couldn't really guess. I can say that all of us are approaching what's going on in this country right now with a certain, you know, trepidation and also awareness that. That there are some possible risks to telling certain kinds of stories. But nobody, when we first pitched it, I thought, oh, this was right when we were getting ready to shoot it. Right when the Netflix Warner Brothers was negotiating with Paramount, Netflix, Comcast, whoever.

[Matt Belloni]

That's kind of what I'm getting at.

[John Wells]

Yeah. And so I was a little like, I'm going to let them know that we're doing it. I don't want to be in a situation where it's a surprise. And their response was, good story. Just make sure it's balanced and we're not just treating the situation as if it doesn't have other points of view.

[Matt Belloni]

Interesting.

[John Wells]

I actually think that we're trying to appeal to a broad audience so we know that there are plenty of people in our audience who have a different point of view than our point of view. So what is it that these doctors are going through that's truthful and the nurses. And if. As long as it's truthful, I think that people stick with us.

[Matt Belloni]

And the emergency room is a great setting for these kinds of issues because they all come up. It's like the one place where everybody in society mixes and you don't know who's coming through the door next and what they might believe.

[John Wells]

Yeah. And we also are in a world in which people don't feel as comfortable. We have people who feel very comfortable expressing their opinion, but most people are nervous about expressing an opinion because they don't.

[Matt Belloni]

You haven't been on Twitter lately, what

[John Wells]

their reaction is going to be. One on one. On Twitter, you get to do it without actually having to say it to somebody's face.

[Matt Belloni]

That's true.

[John Wells]

So we try to stay conscious about that.

[Matt Belloni]

Do you follow the guild politics as much as you once did? How are you feeling about the upcoming negotiations?

[John Wells]

Well, I haven't been on the board or in office for years, so I try and stay informed. But, you know, I.

[Matt Belloni]

But you're, you know, you're a sounding board, I would guess, for people like, what are you thinking going in? What is the appetite out there for another strike? I just feel like it would be so devastating.

[John Wells]

I don't think there's an appetite ever really for a strike, to tell you the truth. It usually gets. You know, every strike is a failed negotiation. Right. And it just usually means that people were talking at cross purposes. I think that the specifics now are such that they should be able to really negotiate, but you never know if it's not received well. You know, the health plan, the pension plans, the difficulty people having with employment, the changes in employment, these are all real issues. The Writers Guild isn't a hiring hall, but they do need to be concerned. We as members need to be concerned on how do we best protect the members. Because the Guild is really there to provide health and pension. It's there to protect credits and to make certain that people get paid at certain minimums that are negotiated on well.

[Matt Belloni]

But the numbers have been scary. The drop in employed writers, the drop in wages with fewer episodes, it really. It's come down, especially since the last strike.

[John Wells]

It's. There's no question that, you know, that we were headed into a retrenchment in the entire industry. Everybody sort of knew it. And I think that was part of what led to the strike on both sides, which is fears of what was coming.

[Matt Belloni]

Right. But then it almost exacerbated. I mean, I get messages all the time from people like, what did we do? Like what? And I don't. I know it's not. I'm not blaming one side or the other.

[John Wells]

That's always the problem, which is, you know, when you're in a situation in which there's a lot of fear about what's coming and, you know, AI particularly at that time, but still, now is an issue. Both sides can. Can Clinch up a bit in the negotiation and then you end up in these impasses. And at the end of it, you always look at each other with whatever you ended up negotiating for and say, why couldn't we done that on the back of a napkin at the Polo

[Matt Belloni]

lounge like in 1956? Yeah, you know, I'll give you my pinky ring if you guys don't strike.

[John Wells]

Yeah. I mean, part of that's because the. The business has changed so substantially. I mean, you know, and the way in which people are employed has changed so substantially. I mean, you know, very difficult.

[Matt Belloni]

All right, well, I appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you very much. Good luck with the rest of the season.

[John Wells]

Thank you so much. Nice talking to you

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[Matt Belloni]

We're back with the call sheet. Craig, we have now been doing the Town long enough where we have a sequel to a movie that we have previously discussed in a call sheet on the town. Congratulations.

[Craig Horbeck]

I know it's all the horror films. Five Nights at Freddy's Screams, Megan, they

[Matt Belloni]

can churn those out. So we've been doing this show more than three years and we've had a couple of of horror sequels. And now we have Scream 7. Scream 6 was the biggest of the of the Scream movies. In its opening weekend, it opened to 44.4 million on its way to 166 worldwide. Not bad. What are we thinking on this one? Because the tracking is at about 43. We're taping this a couple days in advance, but the tracking I've seen has been 43 from NRG. Some of the other services have it higher than that. Why don't we set the line at 45?

[Craig Horbeck]

I feel like, you know, from a horror perspective, 2026 has been a little slow. Neve Campbell is back in this movie. She was not in Scream 6. It was the only Scream. She's not in Nev Campbell.

[Matt Belloni]

Craig, please.

[Craig Horbeck]

Oh, it's Nev camp.

[Matt Belloni]

Oh, it's always been Nev Campbell.

[Craig Horbeck]

Oh, it's been Nev. How much?

[Matt Belloni]

I know she is a genuine Gen X icon, so please do not disrespect her.

[Craig Horbeck]

You're right. Hey, we just did wild things on the rewatchable, so I should have gotten that right. You know what? You know what I respect about the Scream movies? I have not seen the recent ones, like this new trilogy reboot, but they're really good at casting young stars. I mean, scream 5, 6 and 7, Mikey Madison, Jack Quaid, Jenna Ortega. They're really good at casting young up and comers in these movies.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, they were taken over the franchise. Started at Dimension, which was a Weinstein company, and then through all the different bankruptcies and all of that nonsense, they were taken over by Spyglass, which is Gary Barber's company. He's a. I don't want to say Notorious. He and I have had some spats in the past. When he ran mgm, he was kind of a. Not a very friendly figure, but he's done well with this franchise. And this one you mentioned, young stars. They famously fired Gary Barber, fired Melissa Barrera off of this movie for some posts that he did not agree with that he said were anti Semitic. She claimed they were just pro peace, they were pro Palestinian. Probably not going to see a lot of that press in the run up to this movie. They are not doing a lot of press in the run up to this movie. Exactly for that reason. But I think this movie is going to perform. I'm going to take the over on 45.

[Craig Horbeck]

We should also say this movie is directed by Kevin Williamson for the first time. He's the original writer of Scream. He has not directed any of the movies. So this is his directorial debut for Scream. And I think it's only the second movie he's ever directed.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, he was a big deal in the 90s. He created Dawson's Creek, which gave us James Van Der Beek. And he is a. I know what

[Craig Horbeck]

you did last summer. He wrote that.

[Matt Belloni]

Yeah, he was a very big deal. And it's interesting. I think for the old school fans, they will appreciate him coming back for the. This one. Are you taking the over.

[Craig Horbeck]

These movies just feel very reliable to me. So yes, I will.

[Matt Belloni]

Okay. Yeah. Well. But this would be a slight improvement over the last one, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna take it. I'm gonna think that. I think that we'll get about 45, probably a little more. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, John Wells, producer Craig Horbeck, artist Jesse Lopez and Jon Jones. And I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.